#7 Evangelical? Catholic? Or Lutheran? Interview

In this episode of the 5-2 Minstries Podcast, Luke sits down with Jet, head of roasting and quality control at Onyx Coffee Lab, to talk about his journey from non-denominational Christianity to the Lutheran Church. Jet shares how a season of deeper theological study led him to seriously consider Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy before ultimately finding a home in Lutheran theology, particularly its teaching on the sacraments. The conversation dives into assurance of salvation, the meaning of extra nos (righteousness that comes from outside ourselves), the role of liturgy in grounding the Christian life, and the anxiety that often comes with navigating denominational discovery. Luke and Jet close out with practical encouragement for anyone wrestling with similar questions: seeking purification, meditation, and participation in the life of the church.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And you know, part of the purpose of this podcast is that people would hear the best arguments and accurate arguments from each side of the Christian. Welcome to the Five Two Ministries podcast. We've been going through a series on spiritual anxiety, deconstruction, the ancient faith, and it's been a lot of fun. And today we have Jet, who I recently met, great brother in the Lord, and has had a journey to the Lutheran Church. But before we jump into that, Jet's got a pretty cool job, and I want him to share a little bit about what he does for a living.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Hi. Yeah, my name is Jet Hondric. I'm the head of roasting and quality control for Onyx Coffee Lab in Rogers, Arkansas. Downtown Rogers. And basically I'm a professional coffee nerd, so it's it's cool. It's a fun job.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Yeah. Yep. And for those of you who aren't in Northwest Arkansas, I know for me I'd run into people all over the place since I moved here and say, Yeah, oh yeah, I go to Onyx to, you know, study or go to Onyx for meetings. Like, oh, you guys got an Onyx location? Because Onyx is worldwide famous for their coffee, but Northwest Arkansas is the only place with actual physical locations, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah, yeah. We have like eight or nine cafes now, I think, in in the area, but we're only in Northwest Arkansas, like brick and mortar, ship coffee worldwide. So yeah, but yeah, you want the experience, you gotta you gotta you gotta be here. So it's it's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

That's that's awesome. And so Jet has not grown up Lutheran, but becoming Lutheran was a journey for him. So when you were in the midst, give a little bit of a background of just your upbringing in the church, but what was the turning point to want to explore various denominations?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yeah, I didn't grow up Lutheran. I grew up non-denominational and went to the same church from like the time I was born until I was 25. So yeah. Love that church, you know, good relationships with everyone at that church. I have like I have like eight sets of grandparents at that church, basically, like at this point. Like that's that's my second family for sure. Was non-denominational for 25 years. I'm 28 now, but I've always been a believer, like I've always been a Christian, but it was more definitely more kind of going through the motions sort of a thing. It's like church was just this thing that I went to every Sunday, you know, and it was great, and that's awesome. I never was like super involved really in my church, or like I wasn't I didn't take my faith like as seriously at that time, but there was a point after I graduated college that I and I was out in the real world and you know that was making that transition, and I realized that like my faith needed to be the most important thing in my life, or I just needed to start taking my faith more seriously, yeah, because that really was kind of my anchor in the in the world. Once you get out in the real world, it's like you know, you you really need that solid foundation, and so but I in taking it more seriously, I started to kind of dive a little bit deeper into theology, I started to dive into church history more, I listened to so many different pastors and lecturers and theologians from all sorts of different different churches, realized that I really was trying to go deeper than what than the level that I could really go at my church, like at the time, really. It's it's a great church, still love that church, it's phenomenal, but again, there's only a lot of stuff was still pretty surface level, and so I knew in diving deeper, I was like, I think I'm gonna need to explore different different churches and learn and just like kind of kind of start figuring stuff out there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

No, that's really good. One thing that you said that it struck me that I know at times I've felt is in the current context of where you were at, you didn't feel like you could take that step deeper. And I know that was similar a little bit to me as I've wrestled with different ideas in regards to the ancient churches. When I started to ask questions, it seemed like sometimes within the non-denominational sphere or evangelical sphere, there isn't a lot of answers. Yeah, but at the time I had a couple friends who had converted to Catholicism, and as I started to ask them some of these questions, they seem to actually have more substantial efforts, which at the time is like kind of a a scary was a scary thing because it's all of a sudden felt like I'm struggling with where I'm at a little bit, but then is the other only option, Catholicism or maybe Eastern Orthodox. You know, I know for your experience as you were studying some of these things, it did kind of hit a head with what you were studying, what you were listening to, of you know, should I become Catholic or should I become Eastern Orthodox? So why don't you share with us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, yeah, that was a huge, especially the the Roman Catholic Church, like Bishop Robert Barron, who's a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church, he was one of the first speakers that I really started to listen to a lot of online because yeah, just the way he would talk about the faith and scripture, it felt like this whole new level of like opening up of I didn't even think that people were talking about the faith in this way. At the time, it felt like everything that I had questions to he was able to answer, or like the the that system was able to really answer. And so there was a time there when I thought, I mean, it was about a year I'd say of kind of going around and like figuring out different churches and like learning stuff. But at the at the time, I was very heavily leaning becoming Roman Catholic for sure, for that reason, because they have an answer essentially to any question, which which is wild. They just they go so deep into theology and philosophy and history and so things like that. I was like, it was I was eating it up. I was eating it up for sure. But again, in studying history, I was also trying to study scripture. I I was warned beforehand, I was trying to be very mindful of like you can dive into history and in for all sorts of things, but you also need to make sure you're studying scripture on alongside history in studying scripture as well, like trying to do my part in really diving deeper, deeper into the scriptures. There were still just some some roadblocks that some theological roadblocks that I really ultimately couldn't get over. And same thing for the Eastern Orthodoxy. It's like I love that I love the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church so much. I have friends in both wonderful, wonderful traditions, but there were just some some hurdles that I was just like, I just really can't seem to reconcile these things with with history or scripture, honestly. And so I in that sort of searching, the first church that I visited in this kind of journey was a LCMS Lutheran church. It was it was in Rogers, Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Rogers, and Pastor Longman there, Reverend Eric Longman, amazing guy. He really kind of set me on this path of learning, but he also just gave me really, really solid advice of just do your homework. Don't rely just on smells and bells, you know, really learn the theology and and and see what scripture says. Make scripture your priority, essentially. And funny enough, year goes by, I go back and I'm like, Lutheranism, that's where I need to, that's where I need to be. And so it was a it was a wild ride, but man, I'm glad. I'm glad I I found found the Lutheran Church for sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, one thing that you said that is stuck out to me is just how deep the Catholic Church can go. Yeah, and it seems like sometimes a misunderstanding. I know for me this was a misunderstanding because a lot of the Catholics I knew growing up were pretty nominal Catholics. Sure. That didn't feel like and again, this isn't disrespect, but didn't feel like they could be.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I mean, that's any tradition, yeah. But yes, yes, I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

And so it felt like, well, Catholics don't go deep theologically, but you know, as you said, when you start to look at some of these more difficult questions, one thing the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church has going for them is they've been working out their doctrinal statement for 2,000 years, you know, and so it's like they do go back to the beginning and have been working on these things where a lot of non-denominational churches, I mean, have only been in existence for a few years and a lot of times are starting, and not just non-denominational, but various denominations are kind of starting from scratch where there is this depth and richness in some more of the ancient traditions. But one thing you and I were even talking about beforehand is a lot of times we are unaware of the Protestant options that are still rich in history. And so, you know, as you came back full circle to the Lutheran Church, what questions did you feel like the Lutheran Church answered better both historically and theologically than like the Catholic and Orthodox answers seem to be?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah, so some questions that I had as a non-denominational Christian at the time were big ones were assurance of salvation, the sort of the liturgical practices of the church, and then the sacraments. Like those were really my three big kind of those are the three pieces that I found the early church took way more seriously. And so, and there were questions that I never really asked myself, especially on like assurance of salvation, because in my experience, like in in the non-denominational sort of system when it comes to theology, I really didn't have anywhere to look to for confidence in my salvation, other than myself, really, other than like how well was I doing as a Christian? Was I doing the right things? Was I doing enough work essentially, other than the sort of inner experience of the Christian life? There's nothing really outside of myself I have to look to. And so that's where the idea of like the sacraments really started to make sense to me. And the Lutheran uh teaching on the sacraments is the first and foremost, it's the source and summit of the Christian life, is the sacraments, really. It's the gospel, the means by which God uses to deliver grace, forgiveness of sins, salvation to us, and to give us peace. Those were really the things that just completely blew my mind. As I I had never even heard of this kind of idea. And so the Lutheran understanding of the sacraments really is what one of the reasons why I ultimately became Lutheran. Obviously, the the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church and even like the Anglican Church, you know, they they take the sacraments also very seriously. But I think what is unique really and why the Lutheran uh view of the sacrament I think is the best is uh the the Lutheran Church when when uh we say that baptism forgives your sins, when we say that uh that the Eucharist uh really feeds your faith and and also like again provides forgiveness of sins and is a means of grace. When we say that the confession and absolution is really for you, and it's this real thing that happens to you, like we mean it. Like we really mean it. Um scripture does what it says, and that was really the the Lutheran church was the only church that I found that uh was really saying that. It's like the sacraments do what they say they're gonna do, regardless of how we feel about it, regardless of how we're feeling at the time, baptism really does save you. The the Eucharist really does forgive your sins. Confession and absolution is is a real power, it's a real thing that's happening to you because Christ says it is. God promises through these things, and so that blew my mind. That absolutely blew my mind. Whereas the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox sort of understanding of the sacraments is like, yes, they have the sacraments, but ultimately it's harder to find confidence. It was harder for me to find confidence and assurance in those things when ultimately still it comes back to works, it really does. Like, and I I know they would never say that, like, they'll never say that like you earn your salvation by any means, and I don't think they actually believe that they do, but ultimately it's like the sacraments only go so far, but they still aren't enough to fully and truly and really cover your sins in the same way that the Lutheran church is like, no, they do, they really do cover your sins, they really do forgive you of your sins, and it's like that blew my mind. That absolutely blew my mind for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

One thing that especially depending on where some of the people who are listening to the sacraments, even that word can be new, and and I think one thing would be good to clarify, and this is an example I've used at times is when we talk about the sacraments being a means of grace, and I'm sure maybe how you felt at the beginning, as I've studied some of this, it can feel like idolatry or it can feel like works. Yes, yes, yes. So I just want to, you know, one one example from the Old Testament that I really like, and I've used this before even on the podcast, but is when Israel is being chewed up by the serpents, they're getting bit and people are dying. And God's instructions of Moses is to raise up a bronze serpent, and that if the people would look at the bronze serpent, that they would be healed from the snake bites. And Moses does it, and sure enough, as people look at the serpent, they're healed. Now, the serpent wasn't healing the people, but there was a promise of God attached to this physical thing. Yes. That as people looked at that physical thing, God's grace moved and healed them. And so it'd be silly to say that the serpent was irrelevant, because if the people didn't look at the serpent, they weren't going to be healed. But it'd also be silly to say the serpent saved. It's God saving through the serpent. Yes. Um, and so just as you talk about sacraments, maybe for people who are unfamiliar, how would you break down that these, that the Eucharist, that the that baptism, um, that absolution from a Lutheran perspective, kind of break down what do those things mean when you say like they're actually effectual for what the scripture promises?

SPEAKER_00 13:59

This is my favorite thing ever. This is my this is my favorite question to like talk about with folks that are asking about like the Lutheran Church or like friends that I have that are interested in learning about and stuff like that. This is my favorite thing ever. And it's just like the sacramentology is probably my favorite area of theology to to to look at and to really learn more about. When the Lutheran Church, when we talk about sacraments, the confessional Lutheran Church, we as means of grace, basically what a sacrament is, is it is a it is the word of God um put with a physical object or something physical that becomes then a vehicle of of grace, of forgiveness of sins, again, that and also that Christ institutes. That's the other important thing about it. And so for us, there's three sacraments. There's there's the the Eucharist, so the Lord's Supper, communion, holy communion, there's baptism, and then there's a confession absolution. The Lord's Supper, you've got the Word of God being put with bread and wine, and then we receive in the Lord's Supper, we receive the literal body and blood of Christ, like the true body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. With baptism, you've got the word of God being put with water, and that washes away original sin, that brings someone into the Christian life, that uh gifts them with the Holy Spirit. That is how the Holy Spirit is is is someone receives the Holy Spirit is through baptism. It is what gives us faith is through baptism as a gift, and then the confession absolution, which through the physical person of the pastor in the in the stead of Christ by his authority, by Christ's authority, not the pastor's, um forgives sins. And in the same way that Christ gave the office of the keys to the apostles, to the church, to bind and lose sins. So the church has actual authority to bind and lose sins, to forgive and and bind sins. And so, similar to the apostles being able to forgive sins, it's the pastor working in that office, uh, the ministerial office to to proclaim the forgiveness of sins to the flock. And so those are what we mean by by sacrament. And again, it's like that is something that I get questions a lot about is well, isn't that just the same as doing a work? Like, how is that different from works? And it's really what you said with the bronze serpent, that's a great example, is it's we want to emphasize that it's the word of God that makes the baptismal waters efficacious. It's the word of God that makes the Lord's Supper, the body blood of Christ, and efficacious. It's the word of God that makes the confession absolution efficacious. There is no magic in them of themselves. Like it's not some like mystical water that it's just by its nature this kind of thing. The word of God is what makes these sacraments do what scripture says they do. Um, and so and also we'd say that the word of God itself, the scriptures, have a sacramental sort of function, a role. In we believe that the word of God is efficacious. We it does what it says it does. And so when Paul says that faith comes by hearing the word, you know, it's like hearing the word also gives faith. Hearing the you know, the scripture has that ability to give faith to someone just by hearing it. Um, and so yeah, that's that's sort of what we mean when we say sacraments and to to again, another thing, like there's there, especially like you know, we're in Arkansas, this is in the South, this is the Bible Belt, you know. And so there's also when we talk about baptism saving or the Lord's Supper being a means of grace, um, there's sort of this there's a little bit of uh anti-ritualistic sort of sentiment to it, which I totally understand. That is a thing. Ritualism is for sure like a thing. Yeah. Um, but where it's different is that these things are not us working, they're God working. Baptism is God's work, it's not our work, it's something that He gives us, which is why we baptize infants. Like, that's why we baptize babies. Because baptism is nothing we're doing, it's all that God, it's all the work is on God, and that gift is for everyone, everyone's household, you know. It's God that's doing the work, it's not, it's nothing that we're doing. I use the analogy, especially with the Lord's Supper, like when I go up to to receive the Eucharist, I go up to the railing, I put my hands out to receive the body and blood of Christ. That's no different from a beggar on the street holding his hand out for alms, you know. It's like, the is the beggar working for his for alms, you know, is he working to receive what's being gifted to him? It's like, no, we're just beggars, you know, we're we're we're we're receiving, we're receiving a gift, you know. That's that's the way that's the way I like to see it. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

I appreciate you sharing all that. And I think, you know, for depending on where some people are at in their theological journey, I feel like one thing that can be helpful to note that again, I didn't know until you start to look at more church history, is even when you talk about baptism, yeah, you talk about the Lord's Supper. Um, now maybe not the exact semantics, but in in general, what you're describing was held by the church for 1500 years. And I think that's what a lot of people, like you said in the Bible Belt, they'll hear some of these things and be like, whoa, like that's that's works-based or that's ritualism or whatever. And it's like, well, it's too Catholic.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

A lot of people say too Catholic, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Exactly. And I think that it's important to realize, yeah, there may be some disagreements on some of the semantics from you know, whether it's Catholic or Lutheran or Lutheran or Anglican, whatever you want to say. But when you trace this back to the very, you know, first disciples, like you know, Ignatius of Antioch's kind of the famous one. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Polycarpus Smyrna, you got you know, yeah, all yeah, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah, and these guys are discipled by the apostles themselves and clearly teaching that um baptism and the Lord's Supper are more than just a symbol, yes, um, but that these things are truly means of grace where God, where God impacts us. And I think, and I don't know if you have a way to to specifically speak on this, you've kind of mentioned it, but I think it'd be helpful to hone in on this part of just specifically the practical playing out of assurance, because I think in my experience, I don't know if you experience in the non-denominational church or evangelical church at abroad, but we say things like we have our assurance by grace through faith, and then you'll ask, well, what does that mean? And then there doesn't seem to be any practical steps of what does that actually mean. And I think for me, I found in just um exploring different denominations, what I do appreciate about sacramental theology from the different churches who practice that is when you say faith, these are practical ways where we demonstrate faith that isn't a work but is receiving from God, and that is a big difference, you know. If you're viewing these things of how do I express faith, and I think that's where a lot of times, again, theoretical kind of cliche um Christian theology can only get you so far, and eventually it's like, how do I know I'm displaying faith and what ways has God given me these things? So when you look at the Lutheran church, and you already mentioned mentioned various ways, but if you were to hone in the the benefits of the sacraments and liturgy and some of these things when it comes to the tangible objective, how do I know? Not that I'm doing enough, but how do I know that I am doing what the Bible says in regards to faith? Yeah, and how the Lutheran Church has has helped you with that.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

There's a really common sort of concept that we talk about in Lutheran theology a lot called extra nos. It's a term that you'll if you listen to a lot of Lutherans talk like online or like anywhere read and stuff like that, extra nos is like a very common sort of thing. It means outside of yourself, essentially. That really is a good way of summing up how the how the Lutheran Church views salvation, how it views the sacraments, how it views competence or assurance of salvation is the sacraments, what the sacraments do is they take out the guesswork. Of the faith. And even faith is not something that we can ever conjure up within ourselves. Faith is not something that's inside of us, sort of by our nature. Faith is still also a gift. Faith is something that God gives us. You know, it's, you know, it's the Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. Yeah. That's, you know, it's, it's, it's, and again, like I said, we mentioned Paul earlier. It's like, that's how we receive faith is through God. God gifts it to us through word and sacrament. And so that is what the role of the role of the sacraments really are, is they take the guesswork out of the faith. They take the guesswork out of you constantly trying to look at yourself and use that as a gauge to tell whether or not you're right with God. Um, the Jesus' death on the cross is an objective reality that happened, regardless if you believe it or not, like this happened for you. Okay, how do I grab on to that? How do I grab on to that objective reality? That's the role of the sacraments. The sacraments give you a concrete objective means by which to grab on to Christ, essentially. Also, Paul talking about how when we were baptized, were we not baptized into Christ's death and resurrection? That's him talking about baptism saving you. It's him talking about this thing that you're participating in that that again, it removes any type of doubt about what Christ does, like it removes doubt about you ask me, like, is what Christ did, is that for me? How do I know it's for me? You know, that's that's really what it is. That just like when I when I learned that, this is what the scripture says about baptism, especially. If we talk about anything more, if we talk about anything, it's gonna be baptism. That that's that piece that goes that's beyond understanding. Like the peace that I felt of like, thank goodness I don't have to look to myself to know whether I'm right with God or not. I can look to Christ. It's the whole point. The sacraments point us to Jesus and what he did for us, what he is doing for us, uh, actively. Um, and so we can say He He did it all, He did the work, the finished work for us. I can rest in that promise. Yeah, that's that's really how it plays out, I think, in the life of the Christian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

And I I think one thing you're hitting on there too is the active nature both both of Christ's covenant towards us and our response to Him, you know. And I love the scripture, kind of been a foundational scripture for me, is Luke 9, 23 and 24, where Jesus says, if you you know want to follow me, if you want to be my disciple, pick up your cross, deny yourself daily, you know. And it seems that liturgy, sacraments, some of these rhythms of the church give a tangible way. And like obviously, still there's you know the heart work and things that we do as believers, but there's this tangible way that holds us accountable and can bring assurance of that I am denying myself and picking out my cross.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, if I can talk about liturgy a little bit too, also, yeah, because that was also part of your question. And liturgy, the again, another reason why I love the Lutheran Church so much is that we have the most generous view of tradition of all the classical Protestants. Like that's what is amazing about it, is like the the mindset of the reformers, of the Lutheran Reformers, the evangelical Catholics, yeah, as is what Lutherans are also called as evangelical Catholics, the mindset of the Lutheran reformers at the time were really the very conservative in look at all these wonderful traditions that the church has had for at the time, you know, 1500 years. Yeah, there's such good and such benefit to maintaining these traditions. Their mindset was, you know, if it doesn't contradict scripture, we keep it. That was what it was. Um, because we still consider ourselves Catholic, we still consider ourselves the continuation of the Catholic faith. Why liturgy is so important is like you said, it's rhythmic, it is it creates routine, which is nice, but the whole point of liturgy is that it conveys the gospel, like liturgy the whole point of the liturgy is to is to walk you through the gospel and to also just explain the theology of the church. Liturgy, theology is liturgy, liturgy is theology. Yeah, and so if you want to know what a liturgical church believes, go to their liturgy. Yeah, because that is what that's what's gonna tell you what what they believe. And so the the amazing thing about the Lutheran liturgy, the divine service, is that it perfectly encapsulates what Christ is what God is doing for us, and then what how we respond essentially. But it's always God moves first, how do we respond? God moves first, how do we respond? Yeah, and ultimately it it conveys law and gospel. Here's the law, you are a sinner. The law shows you this, it shows you your sins, it reveals your sins to you, but here's the savior, here's what Jesus, this is why you have a savior, because you can't do anything, you can't overcome the law, but Christ did, and then here's how it's for you, and here's how it's given to you. Um, and so, and again, the church has always been liturgical. Like liturgy is always has always been the kind of way that that the gospel is proclaimed. Um, and that's another thing, amazing thing about being Lutheran is that we have all of church history too. The fathers are our fathers, like the church fathers are ours, the the early church. We can we can look at church history and and uh grab all of it in an honest way. I think that's like in in a very practical way. I think that's another thing that's really important is that we can look at church history honestly and say, like, here's where it was amazing, and here's where maybe some stuff wasn't conveyed properly, but we can use the scriptures to really look at that in an honest way, but still take in all of it and and proudly claim that it's like, yeah, the church fathers are ours. It's like this is what makes it amazing. But yeah, that's where liturgy I think is really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Yeah. No, that's great. One of my favorite scriptures to share in regard to liturgy in general is 1 Timothy 3, 16 says, Great indeed we confess is the mystery of godliness. And so when Paul is saying we confess, I mean he's literally saying we confess out loud together. Like this is a liturgy. And so when he quotes this, it's usually like a little poem in your Bible. He's not quoting scripture, he's quoting an early, I mean, this would be around, you know, depending on when this is written, debatable, but 60 AD liturgy of the church. And he says, What do we confess? We confess that Christ was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, and taken up in glory. So that's something the church is saying together, proclaiming, that is summarizing their theology. And so I think that's something that again, depending on what tradition you're from, liturgy can feel dead, it can feel repetitive. But like you said, this is what's grounded the church in truth and practice and prayer and in worship for, I mean, now 2,000 years. And so, yeah, there's various liturgies, whether it's Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, but even Methodist.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

There's a lot of overlap. Like, especially, I'd say with Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox, and Catholic, really, all of us follow really, really, really similar structures to the liturgy. Obviously, we have our theological differences, and so like that's gonna inform certain parts of liturgy. But it's especially Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran, we all really follow or attempt to follow the Catholic tradition. And so our liturgies, a Lutheran Mass, an Anglican Mass, and a Catholic Mass are all gonna look really, really similar, which is which is great. Like again, it's it's the historic practice of the church. Um something else, too, that you talked about where it's it can seem it's just kind of going through the motions, yeah. Uh or it gets repetitive and therefore loses some type of significance because it's like you're just doing the same thing over and over again. Well, one, everyone has a liturgy, because I'd say it's like everyone has sort of the rhythms that they do. But um what makes why liturgy, why why I think ordered, reverent, and liturgical worship is so important is again it removes you, it takes you out of yourself. Yeah. That's really the the point of it. It that's what makes it so impactful, is that it takes you away from a feeling where regardless of how I'm feeling going into church on Sundays, I am going to be given this experience. It's like I am going to experience the law, gospel, forgiveness of my sins, Lord's Supper, confession, absolution. Like, it's the same thing, but that's the point, is that like it's your grounding, it's the it's what grounds you in the week. It's like, regardless of how my week's going, I know I'm gonna go to church and I have my sins forgiven. Yeah, it's amazing. I I know what to look forward to in church. And so um, again, I think that's important too, because it's like the faith can start to feel it's easy to make the faith this experience, this very experiential inner feeling sort of a thing. Um, I think that's a mistake a lot of folks make when they they try to separate the physical and the spiritual when there really is no separation. God made the physical world. Christ was a physical person, you know. It's like trying to separate the divine and the human nature of Christ. It's like, it's like you can't. It all is one thing. And so it's like that's why I love all throughout the Bible when God uses physical means or physical people to fulfill his his work. That's what it is. God made the world, he's gonna use the world to to to fulfill his his promises, and so yeah, it's sick. I love it. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah, and you know, part of part of the purpose of this podcast is that people would hear the best arguments and accurate arguments from each side of you know the Christian faith. And you know, for me, not even being Lutheran can yet find similarities when you actually understand what someone's saying. You know, I think that's one of the biggest problems within Christianity is we make the good guy argument and the bad guy argument, and we make the other guy the bad guy so we can be the good guy, but we don't really understand necessarily maybe what the tradition is saying. And like you said, uh, which I think is a good thing, maybe some people would say it's a bad thing, but when you look at Anglican, Lutheran, um, and Catholic specifically, but even Orthodox, yeah, you can start to find a ton of similarities. And to me, that can be hopeful because that paints a picture of a tangible unity of the church, even though we're not all one institution. But we start to look at even what you're saying about physical and spiritual, some of the church has almost moved into more of a Gnosticism that isn't holding true to ancient Christianity, isn't holding true to the fact that God actually likes the creation he made, and all of a sudden we start to create really our own version of Christianity and start to say things that no Christians believed for 1800 years, and it's not a whole lot different than what the Mormons would do as far as you know, we're we're making up these new truths, and it can get pretty dangerous. And so I think that's what's really important. And my endeavor in this podcast is that people would be able to grab on to the accurate and best versions of Christianity to see what we all agree on, which can be encouraging, but then also to challenge on am I holding true to what scripture teaches and ultimately what the what the how the Holy Spirit has borne witness through the church throughout the ages? And I do think that there can be a struggle personally and can be anxiety-producing a little bit through this. Is there any advice you would give, or even just sharing a little bit of your story? Did you find anxiety or fear or or kind of a spiritual disorientation during this, you know, denominational discovery?

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Oh, for sure, yeah, because it's like this the church I had gone to had been part of who I was for my entire life. Like, you know, it's being so used to that community and that church, it's like that it becomes like an extension of your family, essentially. So it's like it's hard for sure, when you're when you're having doubts about where you're at, and then feeling like you need to make a transition, which is obviously think of like do your homework, don't rush into things, because that was a problem that I really had to rein in. Because even after I had started going to a Lutheran church, and even after I had become confirmed, like in the Lutheran church, I was still there were still some things I was struggling with um as a Lutheran um in the the settings that I in the setting that I was in that made me also again still have doubts and and think, well, maybe I should have gone Catholic, maybe I should have gone orthodox, you know, things like that. There's always gonna be some sort of struggling there when you're first going to a new tradition, like a new church. Um but that's why it's so important to take your time to do your homework, to pray. Please pray. That's such a huge thing. Um study the scriptures, um study church history too, but really focus on the scriptures. Um make sure the scriptures are still the first and foremost in front and center. Um and um still ask questions, obviously, but don't feel like that going to a new church or going even if it is where you feel like you need to be, don't think that's gonna solve all your problems. There's also that the grass is green around the other side, sort of a mentality. That's that's something to be mindful of. The more personally, like what I really struggled with was that community aspect too. Um, because again, when you're you're part of a community for so long and then you go to a new one, it's hard, it's hard to incorporate yourself, it's hard to get accustomed to that new community. And so that in that kind of adjustment can feel like maybe an indicator of maybe I'm not where I need to be. But that's what I was doing at that time was I was putting community over confession, yeah. Um, as my pastor very eloquently put it, very uh he um he was saying, like, what's important is you need that's why confession is so important, as in what you believe, like what your church believes. You're on the same page about that. That really helped me reprioritize. It's like if I truly believe what the Lutheran church teaches, then I'm then I'm where I need to be. That's what matters, you know. And it's so easy for us to put our experience of church over what we believe about the church. And I think that's what I was doing at the time. And so that's something that's like a lot of people I know struggle with that kind of anxiety. But ultimately, what's important to especially with your prayer, keeping your prayer life up and asking God to make sure that you end up where you need to be, which He'll make sure you do, you know, yeah. Um, but also knowing that who God is, who Jesus is, we have a loving God, we have a gracious God who isn't gonna lead you astray if you're if you're earnestly seeking that, you know. I think that's another important thing because like a lot of people have ecclesial anxiety over am I in the right church? If I'm in the wrong church, am I gonna be, am I going to hell? Like if I'm in the wrong church, you know, and stuff like that. And it's like you gotta remember who Jesus is, yeah, and how he's never gonna lead you astray, and he'll you'll be where he needs you to be. Yeah, basically. It's another thing that uh why I ultimately remain Lutheran and I why I remain Protestant just as a whole, is yes, I have these uh yes, I believe the Lutheran church, but I can also look out to other churches and still fully recognize that God is working in these churches. I can I can look at other denominations and still fully call them brothers and sisters in Christ, which is something that is a little bit harder to do in in going to Rome or to the East because they have a little bit more direct statements on stuff like that. And so um, but yeah, it's like just be earnest about it, and God's not gonna leave you, lead you astray, He's not gonna do it. Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna be where He needs you to be. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Well, yeah, I I appreciate you just sharing a lot of your story, and you know, one thing we started at for those of you been following this whole series is you know, three things that can ground us, and you mentioned a lot a lot of this, but number one was purification of um seeking to live a life of holiness. You know, am I pursuing Christ? Sorry, I got some cough there.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Am I pursuing Christ? Am I seeking to live a life of holiness? And that's something that, again, through confession of sin, we can really have um as a as a focus while we're uncertain about other things. Um, number two was meditation, and I think that specifically can be helpful in liturgy, um, in memorizing scripture, of really meditate on the goodness and the character of God. Um, and then number three was participation, of being a participant in our covenant with Christ, but specifically within the church. And um, whether that be a sacramental view or if you're in a church that isn't practicing the sacraments, at least participating in the ways that you can within the church setting you're in. And then if God leads you on, he leads you on. But it seems like those three pillars can provide some stability in the midst of navigating these things. Am I living a life of purification? Am I living a life of meditation? Am I living a life of participation and um just allowing God to lead me, you know, and not, you know, we also talked a little bit about some of these episodes of not seeking for absolute certainty, but looking for assurance. Um, absolute certainty can bring control and fear where I can be assured of things that I don't fully understand. I can be assured of God being at work and assured that I'm in a church that preaches the gospel and ministers the sacraments, and that I am assured that this is the truth. But that doesn't have to be exclusively there's no other church on the planet that's preaching the truth. Yeah. And um, it doesn't mean that I am beyond any doubt or there's no question that trips me up. You know, I think there can be when people are looking for the truth, yes, truth is concrete, but great is the mystery of godliness, right? And so there is an element of mystery in it.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

We're still we're still sinners. It's like we live in a fallen world and and we're gonna have doubts, and that's okay. You know, like we don't have to have it all figured out. That's what Jesus came here for. And so it's and yeah, too, it's like I can um yeah, like we we we live in a in a world that that is uh bombarding us with trying to, you know, all sorts of stuff that's trying to lead us astray. Um but again, we've we have a savior that's overcome the world. Praise God and so yeah, it it that's it's all about Jesus, really, ultimately. It's like he's done everything that needs to be done for us, and he's not gonna lead us astray if if you're earnestly seeking him. And um again, confident, I'm confident that his work is a finished work. Um that's the other thing, too. It's like with assurance of salvation that I was a lot of anxiety, I was having anxiety over um the beauty of the sacraments, and and it always just points us back to Christ, but it's also it it I can lean back on that to say that I I'm confident in my salvation. I I how do I know I'm saved? Because I'm baptized, because of what God has promised in baptism, because of what he promised in his body and blood that we receive in the Eucharist, because of what he's promised in the confession of absolution. Um and again, not to say to your point too, like not to say that we shouldn't examine ourselves, not to say that we shouldn't strive to s to live a holy life, yeah, um, but to also know that our status with God is not dependent upon how well we're doing. And that's where that peace comes in. That's where that peace, our status with God is dependent on what Christ has done already. Uh and so um, so yeah, it but also the Lutheran church really we that's why we emphasize the sacramental life of the church, of that participation within the church, because these are where that the church is where Christ locates himself, it's where God locates himself, it's where the Spirit locates himself to like give us the gifts that he wants to give us for us. How amazing is it that I can know God just doesn't got like obviously God's everywhere, but it's like I don't have to question and go looking for God, if that sort of makes sense. It's like God tells me where he's at, he's in his church, that's where he's at. I can go to church and be like, God's here, I know he's here, and so um, so yeah, yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

No, that's awesome. Well, Jet, I appreciate you coming on here, sharing your story, um, just getting to hear more about the Lutheran faith, getting to more, learn more about how we can combat um spiritual anxiety. So um, yeah, you guys will oh, I guess one last thing. We just promote within five two ministries, we have an at-risk youth program called Little Hummies. And so if anybody's looking for something to partner with, invest in, we help work with kids who are at risk for getting involvement here in Northwest Arkansas. You can go and see how you can partner for us or with us and pray for us there. And so, Jet, thanks so much for coming on, man. Anything, any last words of encouragement you got for the for the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Thanks for having me. Love God and drink coffee. That's there you go. There's there's there's my mantra right there. There you go. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Well, sounds like uh sounds like a pitch from someone who's following the Lord that works in Onyx. So all right, well, God bless you guys. Thank you for too tuning in.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Thanks.