Episode 3 | Maternal Mental Health: What Every New Mum Needs to Know with Courtney Wilton from Nourished Psychology

Motherhood is often described as one of life's most beautiful experiences, but what happens when the reality doesn't match the expectation?

In this honest and compassionate conversation, Rashelle sits down with psychologist Courtney Wilton from Nourish Psychology to unpack the emotional, psychological and identity shifts that come with becoming a mother. Together, they explore everything from the baby blues and postpartum anxiety to matrescence, intrusive thoughts, relationship dynamics, and why so many mums feel like they should be coping better than they are.

This episode is a powerful reminder that struggling doesn't make you a bad mum, and that seeking support is a sign of strength, not weakness. 

In this episode, you'll learn:
• What actually happens hormonally and emotionally in the weeks after birth
• The difference between baby blues, postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety
• Why intrusive thoughts are more common than many mums realise
• What matrescence is and how it reshapes your identity
• How to recognise when additional support may be needed
• The impact of the invisible mental load on mothers
• Ways partners and support networks can better support new mums
• Gentle ways to encourage a friend to seek help if they're struggling

Whether you're a new mum, expecting a baby, supporting someone through postpartum, or simply curious about the realities of motherhood, this conversation will leave you feeling seen, understood and less alone.

🤍 Because while babies need caring for, mums need caring for too.

You can find Courtney at https://www.nourishedpsychology.com/

Or please explore our support directory. https://www.mummascircle.com/support-directory

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi everyone, I'm Rochelle and welcome back to another episode of Inside Mama's Circle. Today I'm thrilled to have Courtney Wilton with us from Nourish Psychology. She's a registered psychologist specializing in the perinatal wellness space. So grab a cup of coffee and let's dive in. So welcome Courtney. Thank you so much for coming today. Thank you for having me. It's very exciting. So first I'd love for you to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about the work that you're doing in the community.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yeah, thank you. My name's Courtney. I'm a psychologist and I work under Nourish Psychology. And I started working in this, I've been a psychologist for many years, but working with mainly adolescents. But after becoming a mum myself and realizing the immense adjustment that it, you know, takes upon us physically, emotionally, mentally, I became really passionate about working in this space. Um so working, you know, across women's health, but particularly in that adjustment to motherhood. And you know, the motherhood journey never ends, really. So it's that of evolution of supporting mums through that. And I think along the way, having those honest and genuine conversations, because that's where I think a lot of the you know information is lacking. You know, motherhood is put on this pedestal as this like amazing thing. Yeah, and it is, but there's so many other things that kind of encapsulate that as well that isn't spoken about. So I think it's you know, that's where I love to come in and you know have those conversations with mums that are secretly struggling and kind of really validate them and say, you know, this is hard. Like you're not feeling it's hard because it's just you. It is be it's just because that's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

It is hard. Yeah, yeah. Are you finding there's a bit of a shift actually in that conversation becoming a little bit more um well known and sort of spoken about? Or do you think there's still a lot of a lot of um ambiguity around that conversation or or vocalizing how people are feeling?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

I think there definitely has been a shift. I think, you know, social media, whilst it can be really, you know, not not so great, I think has been really good around that. Like there's a lot of, you know, mum platforms that are having those honest and genuine conversations and opening up the I guess the floodgates of people going, oh, I feel seen. Like not everybody loves every single second of being a mum, right? Um, but I think it's there's was still a bit a long way to go as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Yeah. I think that mentality of like just get on with it. Um everyone does it. Yes, yes, we don't talk about it. We're just gonna kind of everyone does it, you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

It's like periods, right? Like it's the same thing. Like menopause. Like we all just get on with it. That's every other woman has to, but it's like, why?

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's also really important to acknowledge because in our groups with Mumma's Circle, um, we really do highlight the highs and the lows of motherhood.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Um, I think we come in every week and sort of discuss that because we want to we do want to highlight that point that it can be really awesome, and there's some really amazing wins that you have, but also there can be those really tricky times um and to hold that safe space for the the mums that are coming, and you've definitely seen that being one of our guest speakers.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

And I think normalizing that too, you know, and then you can hear it and like someone else might share that they've had zero sleep that week, then the following week maybe they get a bit of sleep, then it's like um, you know, oh gosh, I'm not the only one not sleeping, or you know, the other thing is, oh my baby sleeps a lot and I feel bad, I can't say that, you know. Yes. So it's all those things, but you know, feeling that sense of camaraderie, you know, that shared experience can be so powerful, particularly in the first few months of motherhood.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, I'd love for you to walk through with us exactly like actually what happens hormonally and emotionally in the first days and weeks postpartum. Yeah. Um, because I feel like that's again something that's sort of um not really talked about 100%.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

And I think you know, immediately postpartum and you know, going on for a few months is one of the most significant biological and psychological transitions a person can experience. Yep, most of us have no knowledge of it going into it. You know, we might get told that you know you might feel a bit weepy or you might feel a bit emotional. The three-day blues, but what does that actually look like? And that's obviously different for everybody, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Um, so immediately after birth, there's a dramatic drop in estrogen and progesterone, which have been very high during pregnancy. And at the same time, obviously, depending on how your birth went, your body's recovering from birth, sleep suddenly not something that you just get six to eight hours solid blocks of. Yeah. Um feeding, you know, is then physically and emotionally demanding, and there's enormous adjustment that's happening neurologically and emotionally. So, mum, you know, many mothers describe feeling raw, overwhelmed, tearful, hyper-vigilant, disconnected, you know, deeply in love, but terrified at the same time. Yeah. And that's before we factor in, you know, the identity shifts, the relationship changes, how we're feeling physically, financial pressures, or even if we had any previous mental health.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

So it's, you know, it's, you know, on the surface, this most amazing newborn bubble that people talk about. Yeah. There's a lot of things underneath that until you go through it yourself, it's not really spoken about. Yeah. Um, which is interesting. And I think that what catches people off guard is that uh once the baby arrives, they're expecting to feel, you know, joyful and bonded, and this is all, you know, sparkles and glitter and all of that sort of stuff. Yes. But postpartum's generally, for a lot of people, messy, disorienting, and emotionally intense, which can be overwhelming in itself. Yeah, definitely. So we prepare women for birth and their partners, but we we don't prepare them for postpartum. So when I'm working with clients that are, you know, expecting particularly their first child, I'm always like, I don't really care about your birth plan. That's not my that's not my jam. That's your midwife and your obstetrician. But what are we thinking postpartum? Like, what is that gonna look like for those first few weeks, those months, depending on how much sleeve they've got, what are what is that going to look like? Let's plan for that. I think that's really, really important, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Because I remember having one mum in my group um in Everton Park, and she said to me, you know, I had all these plans that were, you know, the birth plan and you know, the first couple of weeks even after, but it wasn't, it wasn't, there was nothing but beyond that. Yeah, and she really struggled. Um, she really struggled because she goes, Well, how am I gonna make this different next time? So she's already now doing research into um dual dual support, postpartum for her second, mental health support postpartum for her second. And I think that that's she's taking control because she's recognised that there was a huge gap with her first, and she, yeah, she really struggled mentally, which was really and I think that's a common experience.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

It's like, you know, when you get married, right? Like it's all on the wedding and all of that, and and then what happens after? Oh, okay, cool. We've got all this loop together and get on, okay. And it's the same with a baby, it's like, you know, particularly with your first, it's all this excitement around what pram am I getting? What's the nursery gonna look like? And little baby clothes, but then it's like the actual expectation that you're now responsible for this human on top of everything else, and it's yeah, there's an where that's where the conversations kind of stop and you go to a prenatal class, they don't talk about that. It's like how to swaddle a baby or you know, how to feed a baby. Okay, well, how are we where are these conversations around preparing, you know, not just women, but everybody who is going to be in this baby's life about you know, what is postpartum realistically look like?

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

You know, yeah. Where how are the dynamics in the house going to shift and stuff? Particularly, you know, if the partner is still going to work and still insisting on their eight hours of sleep a night, like you know, all of that sort of stuff. A lot of the times those conversations don't really come off until after, and that's when things can kind of get a little bit um build and resentment, confliction. Yeah, exactly. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Um, really, yeah, I love all of those all those points that you've just brought up because they're so valid. Um, I'd love to hear a little bit about um the difference between the baby blues, um, postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety, because those are sort of like the three main um conditions that sort of get talked about uh in mainstream uh social media and and things like that. So I'd love to hear a bit about each of them and you know why do those lines often get blurred between those three? For sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

So the baby blues are pretty common and they affect the majority of most mums to some degree. They typically occur within the first few days postpartum and generally involve tearfulness, emotionally sensitivity, and feeling overwhelmed. Typically, they p tend to peak around day three to five and usually resolve within about two weeks without formal intervention.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

So then I guess you've got yeah, your baby blues, which is probably more normal. And then you've got your depression and your anxiety. And sometimes depression and anxiety can coexist. Yeah. So they someone might get like a what we call a comorbid diagnosis. So would be diagnosed with depression and anxiety. Sure. Obviously, if someone pre-baby has had depression, anxiety, or other mental health, they're at an even greater risk of that. So that's where hopefully their medical providers are screening for that in the pregnancy conception period and afterwards. Yeah. A lot of the time that doesn't seem to happen. Yeah. Um, and you know, the one, the 10-item screener that is typically maybe asked at the six-week checkup. But then postpartums, you know, like we consider postpartum anywhere in that first 12-month period. So, you know, I think sometimes in that six first six weeks, people are still really in the love bubble and enjoying things, and it's when their partner goes back to work, or you know, the baby hits a different milestone that that's when these feelings can come up. Or that four-month regression, exactly. The pressure changes, yeah. Or they're about to go back to work, and that's when they realise, oh wow, I've got a lot of anxiety. Um so postpartum depression in comparison to the baby blues is more persistent, it's more impairing, and it's not just sadness. So it can look like feeling numb, um, you know, pervasive feelings of guilt, hopelessness, rage, withdrawal, lack of pleasure, difficulty bonding, particularly with the baby. Yeah, okay. Um, and that persistent feeling like they're failing despite trying incredibly hard. So this impacts their functioning and it doesn't lift with just someone going, You're doing a good job, or let's just have some rest. Yeah. Um sort of like all as all consuming, overwhelming, like a big I guess like you you think about depression being described as like the big big black cloud or the black, you know, it's that similar sort of thing. So someone with postpartum depression might be really reluctant to look after themselves or get out of bed, you know, so that real he feeling heavy. Um and not connect with friends and things like that. Yeah, yeah. So that we'll withdraw. Yeah. Um, you know, and then potentially also not being interested in the baby, like feeling like their partner or someone else, you take them, like I'm no good at this, so you take them. Sure. Um, whereas postpartum anxiety is also incredibly common, but for some reason it's less recognised than we talk a lot about PPD, but we don't actually talk a lot about PPA, which is interesting. Um, but anxiety on the flip side involves racing thoughts, excessive worry, hypervigilance, panic symptoms, difficulty sleeping, whereas depression, you might be doing lots of sleeping or resting, um, intrusive thoughts, constant checking, so that hypervigilance and a you know, that impending sense that something terrible is about to happen. Yeah. Um, and I think also it's, you know, let's be honest, anxiety and parenthood kind of go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Um, someone that, you know, wouldn't have really thought that they weren't anxious, and then you have a baby and it's oh my god, are they breathing? Like, what's that noise? Sleep because if what if I don't wake up or you know, what if you're gonna be able to do it? But babies make lots of noises in those first few weeks, you know, like and you just it's that height like, oh my gosh, I have to really um, you know, like be on edge. Um and then like couple that with the lack of sleep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Then that anxiety kind of gets exacerbated, would you say? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah. So the lines blur when these experiences overlap as well. So it's possible to have depression and anxiety, and then as you said, sleep deprivation just amplifies everything.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Um, and culturally, we normalize a lot of this in parenthood by saying things like, Oh, well, you're a new mom, and all new mums worry, and oh, you're just sleep deprived. Yeah. So a lot of the time, sometimes the signs can get missed. Um, and this and also that can minimize symptoms that actually do deserve, you know, support and care or need that little extra um helping hand. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Okay. Well, with that in mind, actually, I'd love to hear a bit about recognizing the signs. Um, so what are the signs that someone's experienced um has moved beyond the normal adjustment period of becoming a mother? Um, the things that tell you that a clinician, as a clinician, that um they need to pay closer attention to or seek additional support. Because, you know, I was talking with a friend the other day and she's just had a baby, and um, you know, there's a lot going on in her world, additional to this new little little cherub. Um, and so I'm thinking, I'm like, what else does she need? Um, you know, when does it get to a point where I should say, like, oh, you should probably get some help. Well, are you talking to someone about this? Because that's a lot that's going on in her world. So from a clinician's point of view, I'd love to hear at what point does it become they should seek additional help?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

So I think one of the biggest indicators is when their distress begins interfering with their functioning connection on day-to-day well-being. So I start to pay attention closer attention when symptoms, you know, described by clients. I mean, I guess typically I might be seeing clients when they're coming in for, you know, they're past that. But if you know, I've got clients that are more like I'm monitoring, it would be when they're feeling persistent, escalating, or disproportionate to what we'd expect in a normal adjustment. And I guess I'm saying normal in quotation marks because what is normal. Yes. And that's individual and relative, right? Like someone might have a really easy adjustment to parenthood because it's their fourth kid, yeah, versus someone who's really struggling to adapt to you know motherhood the first time around, and maybe their baby was in NICKU, and all there's so many contextual factors. Um, but I guess if we think about someone who can't switch off, like their mind is just going all the time. Yeah, they may feel persistently hopeless or detached from their baby, they're avoiding leaving the house, interacting with friends, crying constantly, feeling in intense rage or panic and struggling to bond. And sometimes it's more subtle. Mums who appear highly capable externally, but internally are you know on survival mode and running on fear. It's also important to pay attention to guilt and self-criticism. Many mums will dis minimize their distress because they just think they just need to cope better. Yeah. And if someone's constantly saying other people have it harder, or I feel like I'm overreacting, or I'm just, or you know, I'm probably I'm just doing it to be sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

We're so good at doing that right and minimizing how we're feeling, and oh, it's okay, someone else is worse off than me, or I didn't have that bad a birth, or you know, all those sorts of things. So yeah, we're really good at uh minimizing how we're gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah, that's deflection and you know, feeling like, oh well, I don't want to be a burden. Um, and I think also one of the biggest things is intrusive thoughts, you know, and these can occur on a spectrum. Many parents experience fleeting intrusive thoughts, but I think it's really important to normalise these as well because we all have them, yet it's one of those things that's just never spoken about. So internally we're all quietly thinking we're crazy. Yes. When in fact we're just experiencing something that's quite normal.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah. Um I definitely felt like that. Sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, but I definitely felt like that with my first and I didn't realise that it was intrusive thoughts. So I'd be driving with her and I'd just like panic because I'll oh what happens if I had a car accident? What happens if I lost control of the car? And I was like, oh, just don't be stupid, you know. And that's sort of I sort of minimized that too. But then when we moved overseas, I didn't drive for the first six months because I was so and I didn't petrified. Yeah, I didn't I didn't appreciate that maybe that was something that was coming across. I just it's a different country, different style, like it's a bit too scary. So yeah, interesting. Okay, that intrusive thoughts um can you know can be quite common. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Oh, definitely. And I think it's like I've seen it happen, you know. I think maybe we've talked about in one of your groups, but I've seen it in session as well when I've like labelled it. That's an intrusive thought. And people are like, what, really? Yeah, yeah, we all have them, and it's just like this light bulb that goes on in their brain, and like, oh my god, I'm not crazy. I'm like, no, you're not crazy. You know, where obviously they occur on a spectrum, and there are times when we do have to pay attention to those thoughts like quite critically. But you know, as a mum, you know, now responsible for this tiny baby, like it's happening all the time. I remember like walking, I used to do lots of walking in the with the pram, and just you know, how you like walking across the road now, like this thought of what if I let go of the pram and just rolled into traffic, yeah, you know, or you know, which I laugh, but I'm like, I have these thoughts. Yes, yeah, yes, yeah, exactly. Right. It's still driving in the car or you know, they're riding their bike in a car of you know, like it's just they're never ending, but it's about acknowledging that you know, that's a thought, it doesn't make it true. Um, and I think that's the biggest thing is because when someone's got like quite an anxious brain, they could suddenly become, oh well, I can't leave the house because of all this stuff that could happen and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah. Wow, okay. Um, so on that, actually, I would love to know if I felt like my friend was, you know, needing extra support. What is something I could say to her without sounding bossy or or rude or anything like that? What would be something that I could say to her to sort of offer her support or just also highlight that maybe she should seek additional support?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Maybe it's just about it sounds like you're having a really tough time and that's okay. Yeah. You know, motherhood, you know, just that validation, that gentle validation, and saying, you know, it sounds like you're having a really tough time. Um, have you ever thought about, you know, what would be helpful for you? Yeah. Okay. Um, what do you need? Yeah, that sort of thing. And, you know, just those little open-ended questions that might start some thoughts happening for her. Yeah. And saying, you know, have you ever thought about talking to someone or even, you know, I've talked to, you know, like use your own experience or you know, there's no harm. Sometimes it's nice to have, you know, a chat to someone who's also a mum and you know, gets it just to kind of get this off your chest.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Um, yeah, so those gentle sort of explorations, but I think it's yeah, going in with that, it sounds like you're having a really tough time. Or I'm really, I'm sorry that it sounds like it's, you know, it's a tough time. Um, you know, what yeah, what do you think you need or what do you think would be helpful?

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Yeah, yeah. Okay, I love that. Because yeah, I often wonder because I don't want to overstep, and we are quite good friends. Um, but yeah, I just worry that I don't want to make her feel worse or make the situation worse or anything like that. So that's actually really, really good to hear, and I'll try using those. And hopefully she'll she'll feel a bit supported. Yeah. Um, so there's been a lot of talk lately about matrescence. Um, the idea that becoming a mother is a profound identity shift, not just a life event event. How does that framing change how you work with your clients?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

I think the concept of matrescence in itself is just really validating because it reframes motherhood and the adjustment to motherhood as a developmental transition, yeah, rather than just something that we should know what to how to do. Um, and it's interesting because a lot of people don't even know what matrescence is, but when I like explain it, they're like, oh, I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Um what I found really interesting in my groups is that I actually asked this question, um, who has heard of matrescence? And I reckon I get about 50-50. Yeah. Which is still crazy to me because yeah, I mean, I know it's a new term, um, but it's it's really important to sort of open that conversation around it because it's such a huge identity shift. But sorry, I'll let you continue.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

And I think like I didn't, I mean, you know, not having kids or not being in this space, I didn't once I was trying to get pregnant, I did a deep dive and found matrescence and I was like, so did it, you know, but even that didn't really prepare me for what that actually looks like. Yes. You know, in all sorts of ways, postpartum. Um, so I guess when we have an understanding of matrescence, we can stop asking why am I struggling and start recognizing that this is a major psychological, relational, hormonal, social, and identity shift happening all at once. It's like puberty. Yes. But instead of puberty happening over three to four or five years, it happens theoretically overnight. Yeah. Um so in therapy, it changes the lens from pathology to more compassion. So of course, someone's going to feel lost, conflicted, overwhelmed, ambivalent, unsure of what they're doing. Their entire world and their sense of self has evolved and changing, and that can be unsettling and scary as it is exciting.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

So it also allows space for complexity as well. So you can deeply love your child and simultaneously grieve parts of your old life. You can feel grateful and exhausted. You know, joy and grief coexist naturally in motherhood. Um, but many women feel ashamed of that because culturally we often expect motherhood to just feel purely fulfilling on its own.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Um, and it's that juxtaposition of like, you know, even as our kids are getting older, you know, it's that grief and loss there too. You know, like we're grieving the little people that they used to be, but we're also excited to see the big people they're becoming.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Um, or the, you know, like I think it's even, you know, the I was saying to someone the other day, I was like, you know, last night my daughter was like, Mommy, you just want more hug. And I was like, Oh, had 10 hugs. You know, and I'm like, but then what if that's the last night she ever asked me to hug her again at bedtime? I hope not, she's sick. But you know, it's still like, you know, and we're in this like constant pulling, no, I just want to like go on my 20 TV show versus no, of course I'll give you another hug. Yes, yeah. That's really true. And you know, and it's yeah, so grief and joy I think can coexist. Yeah, they do exist naturally.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

But it also allows that space for people to go, I didn't think it was going to be this hard, or I didn't think I would miss working or you know, or just change their entire um, I guess, goals and attitude to their career as well. Some some people do a complete, you know, 180 and be like, nah, I don't want to go back to work. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Hi, that's me. Yeah. I think like honestly, with the groups and when we we talk about matrescence and that identity shift. And I think that, you know, a lot of women, probably eight out of ten women that I talk to go, I my identity changed so rapidly uh that I don't even know who that previous person was, which is fine. Um they grieve that, but then also they go, Well, what does this new person look like? Yeah. And what is and then what work aligns with that and with my family goals and values too. So yeah, it's a really interesting conversation.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

And I always like to kind of describe it as like motherhood breaks you open. Yes. And then, you know, what that then looks like is you putting those pieces back together. And a lot of the time that doesn't look like the puzzle piece that would have been, you know, the way it was pre-child. Yeah. And that's actually a beautiful thing because, you know, out of this grows someone else, um, and it changes your values and you know, all of that sort of stuff. So it can be, you know, whilst it can be really hard and you know, emotional and overwhelming, it can also be a really beautiful experience too.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a completely different person after I had kids, so it's it's amazing to see that that progression and that change. So um, what happens when the reality of motherhood doesn't match the expectation? Then how do you help someone work through that gap without shame?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

I think once again it comes back to that normalization as well. Is that um, because once again, the expectations of birth and you know, breastfeeding, you know, if we just take away you take, I guess, the first few, you know, parts of you know, postpartum when we think about what's the most important thing, it's breastfeeding and it's how the birth went. And the thing is, you know, a lot of people have these, you know, big plans because they think, oh, well, everybody else does it, so I'll be able to do it. Yeah, and unfortunately that's not the case for everybody. And then we're then comparing, you know, that compara motherhood comparison starts so incredibly it starts in the birthing suite, really. Yeah, or even I mean, I feel I remember being judged in my prenatal class because I was the only one having an elective cesarean. I owned it. I was like, Yep, I'm doing it. Yeah, and the girl next to me was just like, Oh, I didn't want to put my hand up. I was like, Oh great, so you're shaming me, but you're also getting one.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

I I got that. I had uh a mum ask, and I said, Oh, I I've had I've had three C sections due to a medical condition. I said, But as long as they're born healthy, she's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay, yeah, but yes, yeah, it happens throughout all of our parenting. And it's the same with breastfeeding or formula feeding and guilt and shame around all of those expectations versus reality.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

And I think half the problem is is like we internalize that shame. You know, because sometimes no one's even said anything, but because of what we think we should have done or we failed them because I didn't breastfeed her till I was two or she was two or whatever, um, we internalize that shame and then we already feel like we're on the back foot as a mother. Yes, yeah, yeah. Um so it can be incredibly painful, you know. Um, and a lot, you know, bonding a lot of mums think that this bond is gonna like be instant when sometimes that's not the case. Uh it doesn't mean they don't love their baby, it just means that that bond takes longer to build, which makes sense. They're a stranger. You didn't fall in love with your husband in one day, I'm assuming. So, you know, it's but it's this expectation and this cultural um how yeah, it's like sold to us, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah, absolutely. And what gets in the way of new mothers seeking support, do you think? And what do you say to someone who feels like they should be coping on their own?

SPEAKER_01 25:51

I think there's probably a number of factors this time. Um, you know, like most of us can't leave our babies. Yep. Um, and you know, I guess that's the thing. I see a lot of I you know, the mums I see are I guess a privilege to have someone that looks after them. I mean, I welcome babies in the room.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

And at a certain age, that's fine, but obviously the older they get, it's more distracting. You can't keep a com it's like hanging out with friends, you can't keep a thread of conversation going. So I think it's time, potentially cost, not knowing where and how to access it. Yeah. And also that potentially that, yeah, you know, like, oh, well, I can't tell anyone I'm struggling. I can't even want to tell my husband or my partner. Like, what am I meant to do? I'm just gonna suffer in silence. Yeah. Or I'll just talk to my friends. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

And that's really tricky, right? I mean, it's good if they can talk to their friends, but often um they need some strategies around that um those questions, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Rather than an objective point of view. Yes. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Um, how important is the partner or support network in recovery? And what do you wish partners understood better?

SPEAKER_01 26:56

I think um support networks, you know, the village. We don't have a village most of the time anymore. You know, back in the day, you know, people lived in big family, you know, villages and congregations, so there was a lot of support. Um so recovery or feeling good postpartum is definitely influenced by whether someone feels emotionally held, supported, and understood. And I think, you know, obviously dads get a bad rap, but you know, and I guess we're, you know, potentially and well, I'll just use partners. They genuinely want to help, but they underestimate I think the invisible mental and emotional load that mums carry. A hundred percent. And I think women ourselves, we have no idea what that looks like until we have children too, and then it's just like triples. Yes. Um, and too often the mum becomes the default manager of the feeding, the routines, the appointments, the safety, the emotion, you know, the household logistics, even when support exists around her. Um, one thing I wish that partners understood better, including my own, isn't it's you know, support isn't just well, just tell me what you want me to do. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Because then it's another list of something that I need to manage. What do you want to do? No.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

I want you to make an executive decision. You're a functioning adult. Take that off my plate. Yes. So many mothers are already mentally overloaded by the constant need to delegate and plan. And then when our partners are coming in saying, I'll help, just tell me. Like it's just we say no. Yes. Um, so practical initiatives, so being like, I'm gonna take the kids to daycare today, I'll pack I'll be in charge of packing their bags, or I'm gonna do dinner all week, or you know, that that sort of stuff. Um, and validation is you know incredibly powerful. So simply acknowledging. So rather than you know, I think sometimes, and I'm a stereotype man again, they tend to jump in and try and problem solve or fix. Whereas sometimes we just need to be listened to. 100%. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Um, do you see the bit of a shift now, like in in partners being more proactive? Um, or are we still a little bit off that yet? Do you think?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

I think it depends on the individual. Sure. Like there are some amazing fathers out there that are full, you know, fully hands-on and do all the things. Yet I think depending on how I guess you're there they were brought up, yeah, and the household logistics in terms of who's working and who's not, there's still quite a disparity, I think. Like, oh well, that's like, you know, a female's job or a mum's job and things like that. Um, and I guess also it's important to know that partners themselves can struggle in the postpartum period in the adjustment. You know, like may it on the surface it may appear that their life has not changed. Yeah, you know, like it has. And I think it's that grief and loss and looking out for those signs of because men can suffer from postpartum, you know, um, mental health as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah. So I guess, you know, when working with them from like in a clinical setting, it's supporting the family system as a whole. Yeah. You know, so I might be working obviously with the mum, but then it's talking about, you know, what are the relationship dynamics looking like and you know, support around that as well. It's always, you know, good to kind of have an idea of what that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

You know, conversation starters to take home to the partner to be like, hey, this is something we could do together. I've got a mum at the moment, she's well, she would have gone back to work by now. But yeah, that was what our last session was focused on. And there was some, you know, conflict coming up around how they were gonna manage this next change. Yep. Um, so working around that. Because once again, that's not something that you probably think about even in the pregnancy stage, you know. Yes. Of like who's gonna, you know, life's gonna change when I go back to work. What does that look like? Because why should I be the one still in charge of doing everything and I'm working five days a week too?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Correct, correct. I had a really great um conversation with one mum when she said, and and I loved that she shared this with our group too. And she said, when we were just a couple, everything, the household was 50-50, right? So the chores would be 50-50, the mental load would be 50-50, he would cook, I would cook. It was it was very fair and equitable. Um, once I had the baby, my job was to look after the baby. And so there was that division then that he would still do 50%, I would still do 50% because my job now was taking care of this little human.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Um, and I thought that was actually a really great way to sort of frame it as well. To then, and some of those mums then went home and had that same conversation with their partners. Um, because I think it was really valid and really um sort of just it was well communicated. Yes, I think that was.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

It sounds like a nice way of talking about it because I think a lot of the times, you know, women just end up doing it all because it's just easier.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

It's you know, something else that, you know, like, oh, well, I've got to write him a you know, step-by-step list. I remember I went to a conference a couple of years ago and there was a few um, you know, women there that were leaving their kids for the first time and like had to leave a step-by-step list of what to pack for the daycare bags, and I was like, I mean, yeah, my husband's got his you know low points, but I was like, I didn't ever have to do that. Yeah, yeah. But I did come home and the dishwasher had not been unpacked, and I was like, for two days, I was like, oh my lord. But you know, it's still, yeah, it's that division of you know, because I think a lot of what we do just typically as women is invisible.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

So I love to, you know, talk, and I've never actually done it myself, but like get a whiteboard, write down absolutely every single thing you do, get him to do the same, and then you know, see if you can kind of share some things. Um, like Eve Rodsky in Fair Play, that book, you know, that's you know being a game changer. Yeah, you know, but I think that's a really good, you know, resource as well for because sometimes we have no idea what we're doing. Yes. And then you write it all down, you're like, wow, no wonder my brain is exploding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

No wonder I can't actually function and actually have a conversation at the minute because there's all of these other things that are taking that priority. So exactly. Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

And I think also if you're, you know, tend to be more on like, you know, have an anxious sort of personality, it's that level of control too, right? Yeah, absolutely. A lot of dads will be like, oh, well, she doesn't let me do anything, like I'm doing it wrong. Yes, and I think that's when we need to, you know, maybe leave the house and let them deal with it. You know what? They're not gonna be dressed cute, maybe. Yeah. Um, but they will be looked after, and it just may be different to how we do, and sometimes we need to just take a step back and go, okay, look, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

I definitely uh resonate with that because I had a friend who our babies were pretty much the same age, a couple of weeks apart, and I think they were about six months old at this point, and she was going back to work one day a week on a Saturday, so her husband was gonna have the little one, and it was really interesting because I'm like, Well, how will he go? She's like, Well, he'll have to work it out because he's the dad. And I just thought, oh my gosh, like I could never do that, but I don't think that I could never do it because my husband's not capable. I could never, I was like, I can't do that because I was controlling yeah all of the things, and so yeah, that was really interesting having a bit of a reflection on that situation because he was more than capable. I just sort of didn't give him the chance. That's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

But that you know, that's you know, brings it back to you know, like, oh well, who's gonna be looking after the child? Their dad. Oh, so he's baby. No, he's not babysitting, he's parenting. Yeah, whereas do we get a medal for taking our kids to the park? Or like, you know, no, we don't. So it's still quite that, you know. But I think, yeah, we're coming through, and hopefully, when our kids get married and have kids, you know, it will be a little bit more 50-50.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, if someone was listening right now and recognizes themselves in what we've just talked about and what you've described, what's the first step you would encourage them to take today?

SPEAKER_01 34:34

I think the first step is potentially hopefully acknowledging it to yourself that what you're feeling is not normal and that it's okay. And to tell someone that you trust where you feel comfortable how you're actually feeling, whether that's you know, in a conversation, in text. Um, so it could be a friend, it could be a partner, um, when you're at the GP if you feel comfortable, um, if you've got a maternal child health nurse, someone that you feel safe with to just start that conversation because I think once you rip that band-aid off, it'll be easier. But making sure that that person you feel safe with, because I guess the worst thing that we want is someone having a negative experience of like, oh well, you know, you're just sleep deprived and that dismissal. Yes. Because obviously the more we get our feelings dismissed, the less likely we are. We build that, you know, that nice little armor up, and we're, you know, it's a lot harder to bring it back down. But I guess the most important thing is not waiting until things feel unbearable.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yeah. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Earlier support leads to better outcomes. Yeah. It doesn't mean that you know there's anything significantly wrong with you. Yeah. Um, you think about, you know, you think back to when everyone was a teenager, right? We all probably went through ups and downs and had bad, you know, down times or tough times. And it's, you know, it's made us the people we are today, but it didn't necessarily lead to a diagnosis or anything like that. But helping, you know, talking to someone in a really safe and supportive space can be so, you know, just yeah, it's like a you know, sitting down with a nice friend and having like a warm hug and just being like, it's okay, we've got you. Yeah. Um because and I think also stop comparing your heart, you know, the legitimacy of what you're going through to someone else's. If you are distressed, you're feeling overwhelmed, anxious, numb, or not feeling like yourself, that matters. Your heart is your heart, and that is okay. And I think also struggling postpartum isn't a reflection of anyone's worth or capacity as a parent. The transition to motherhood is beautiful, but it's also profoundly demanding. And we're never meant to navigate it entirely alone. And I think that's the biggest thing is you know, who's holding the mums in the postpartum period because you know the babies are important, but so are the mums, and that's where I think they need, you know, they need to be held just as much as the babies. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Courtney. That was all right. Absolutely wonderful. Um, yeah, I just think that I love talking about this topic and breaking down those barriers for mums um to seek additional support uh if they need it and to know that they're not alone. Yes, I think that's the biggest thing, right? And shared experience. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you follow the podcast, leave a review, and share it with a mum who might just need it. We're so glad to have you part of our circle.