The Applied Mind
The Applied Mind
#07 - Ashleigh Chapman - Understanding Domestic Violence & Coercive Control.
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Domestic and family violence isn’t always loud, obvious, or physical. Much of the harm happens in the quiet — through patterns of control, isolation, monitoring, and fear that slowly shape a person’s entire world.
In this episode, I sit down with Ashleigh Chapman, a Specialist Domestic and Family Violence Counsellor with nearly a decade on the frontline, to unpack what coercive control really looks like and why it’s so often misunderstood.
Ashleigh breaks down how control develops long before any visible abuse occurs, the psychological tactics that keep people stuck, why leaving can be the most dangerous time, and the common misconceptions that prevent friends, families, and communities from recognising what’s happening.
This conversation is honest, confronting, and deeply human. Whether you’re learning for the first time or want a clearer understanding of DFV, Ashleigh offers insight that cuts through the noise and gives shape to an issue many people struggle to see.
If at any point this episode feels heavy or brings something up for you, please reach out for support — we’ve included relevant services in the show notes.
Support Links:
1800RESPECT is the major referral resource- families may contact the hotline and they will link in with local support services. Relationships Australia is where Ashleigh also refers couples for DFV related counselling.
Hotline Power & Control Wheel: At The Hotline, our frame of reference for describing abuse is the Power and Control Wheel created by the Domestic Abuse Intervention Project in Duluth, MN.https://www.thehotline.org/identify-abuse/power-and-control/
What is coercive control: https://www.relationshipsvictoria.org.au/news/what-is-coercive-control/
White Ribbon Helplines:
https://whiteribbon.org.au/helplines/
Support Service: Confidential information, counselling and support service. 1800RESPECT is available for free, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to support people impacted by domestic, family or sexual violence.
Australian Government Serviceshttps://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/family-and-domestic-violence
This episode is proudly brought to you by GRecovery, the Central Coast's leading destination for health, wellness, and performance recovery. From saunas and ice bars to massage therapy and soft tissue treatments, they've got all the science-backed tools to help you feel and perform at your very best. To book your next session or learn more, head to grecovery.com.au. That's gerecovery.com.au. First off, a massive thank you for all the support you've been showing lately. It honestly means a lot to me and it keeps me motivated and inspired to bring out new episodes. And I really hope I can keep bringing you content that's both engaging and insightful. So thank you so much. As you probably saw in the title, today we're going to be diving into something really important, and that's domestic violence and coercive control. I'll be honest, I was a bit nervous before recording this one. It's not an easy topic to talk about. It's complex, layered, and sadly way more common than I think a lot of people realise. So just a quick heads up, we will be discussing themes of violence, abuse, and coercion. So if at any point you do find it hard to listen to, or if it does bring up something for you, we've added some support service links in the show notes below. So please don't hesitate to check those out. My guest today is Ashley Chapman. She's a specialist, domestic and family violence counsellor, and she's got over ten years of experience. She's worked as both a clinician and a team leader, and these days she runs her own private practice. Ashley brings a really grounded, thoughtful perspective and a rare mix of professional insight and humanity to a really complex conversation. So take a breath, settle in, and let's get into today's episode.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm good when you are.
SPEAKER_03Let's go.
SPEAKER_00Well, thanks for coming on. Um just for context, I I have like a little piece that I'm gonna read to start the episode off to kind of give a bit of an intro as to what it's gonna be like and what we're gonna talk about. So we don't have to dive too much into that. But yeah, just to kind of start us off, it'd be good to get a bit of an intro as to who you are, where you've kind of worked, what your experience is, and yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm Ashley and I am a couples counsellor on the Central Coast. But for the last decade or so, I've been working in the field of domestic and family violence here on the coast. So I started off working with families and NGO programs, um, working in home with people to reduce violence in the home. Uh, then I moved into some team leader roles and rolling out programs to reduce youth violence uh in the home as an early intervention kind of piece. And then I had my now three-year-old and realized that NGO life is full-on.
SPEAKER_00Um for those that don't know what NGO is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so non non-government organization. Yep. And when we're kind of working in those spaces, those roles take a lot from you and and a lot of dedication in terms of the hours. And so I stepped out of that world and entered private practice to try to find balance for my family.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and yeah, I've always kind of had a soft spot for vulnerable populations and vulnerable people, particularly in domestic and family violence.
SPEAKER_00And you've got another little one.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I just had another one. He's three months old. Um so yeah, that's that's me.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. What drew you to start working in this field?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it was kind of when I stepped into the family work, and I have my own personal experience and history and domestic violence as well. And it was wasn't until I I stepped into that family role, uh, working with families in the DV space that it it really hit me that like, oh, this is something I'm I'm really good at. I'm really good at engaging families, and I actually really enjoyed working with men who perpetrate violence as well, working in their homes. Um, and yeah, I just kind of kickstarted from there.
SPEAKER_00I think it's uh it's a common thing with psychology. I assume it would be the same with with this stuff. Yeah, people generally have their own personal experience that kind of pushes them to go and get into it. And yeah, when I was doing research for this uh episode, a lot of the really good podcasts already out there come from people that have come from their own experience and moved through it and just want to share that information. So we're gonna talk about some pretty complex topics. There's a lot of kind of vocabulary that I had to learn just to understand this topic. We're talking about victim survivors and perpetrators and things. I think it's important to give people listening context as to what that means and what it doesn't mean. Yeah. Yeah, I want to separate, I don't want to say like clinical and subclinical because that's that's not the way to word it. But I think especially for younger populations, there is a difference between someone that might be like a controlling partner and someone that is abusive. I just want to put some context forward before we kind of pick it up. Yeah. Can you speak much to yeah, the the terms that we're gonna be using and the context we're talking about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So when we you mentioned like a perpetrator versus a victim survivor. Um, when we're talking about perpetrator, I even like to differentiate that between adult and young person. I've worked with a lot of young people.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01And when I am working with young people, I like to use terms like young people use violence because it's not, it's not necessarily they're perpetrating that violence because the ability and the how they're trying to gain control is coming from a safety point of view. Okay. Um, when we're talking about perpetrators, and the first thing that often comes to mind is men who perpetrate violence. When we're talking about perpetrators, we're looking at a pattern of behavior. So this isn't someone who had an adult tantrum one time in their life. This is someone who's abusing power and their power over someone else. That is someone who is perpetrating violence and someone who is a perpetrator. There's no kind of set definition or cutoff of when it's bad behavior that turns into perpetrating violence. Um again, it it is all contextual.
SPEAKER_00I think to add on to that, it doesn't have to be physical. We'll get more into that. But yeah, just to distinguish distinguish it, it's they are the same thing in that regard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And then if we come back to a victim survivor, this is someone who has experienced the other end and being power under uh and vulnerable, uh, someone who's experienced domestic and family violence uh within its entirety and sections of that as such. And it's not necessarily someone who's, you know, come out the other end as such. You know, we're not looking for someone who's left that relationship and you know as a single person and thriving in life and and things like that. But this is someone who's experienced the brunt of a power over.
SPEAKER_00I know there's so many different like subcategories of it, if you will. Yeah. We're gonna talk a lot about the family setting. What I found was there's yeah, family and domestic violence, intimate partner violence, sexual violence, child sexual abuse, stalking and surveillance, and modern slavery, which I had never heard of before. Yeah. Um, can we kind of put a little bit of a definition on those so that we know where we're sitting?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really tricky because they all kind of intertwine. You know, if we're talking um sexual violence can come into intimate partner violence, which can then come into child abuse and neglect. Um, if we kind of want to conceptualize that, I would just say it's it's anything to gain power over someone else. Yeah. Um, and and it's eliciting fear and it's taking away from someone's human right to safety if if we kind of can capture all of those in one. But if we have some different examples there, um intimate partner violence is predominantly known between two people within a relationship, and domestic and family violence can extend out to anybody living in that family as well, you know, brother to sister, sister to brother, things like that, um, uncles, cousins, or anything that conceptualizes the family.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Predominantly what we are seeing is within that nuclear type family, mum, dad and children kind of thing. Uh, but the intimate partner violence is solely between two people within a relationship, and that doesn't discriminate to what that relationship quite looks like. And we also have child abuse and neglect, uh, which is by any caregiver. It doesn't have to be a parent, it can be by any caregiver or any adult that that child experiences. And then we've also got things like within intimate partner violence, we have sexual violence, but then within child abuse and neglect, we have sexual violence. Uh, within friendships, there is sexual violence. So it's it can be really hard to kind of really they were all intertwine. Uh, but it's really about what that relation, the relationship between the two people that can differentiate between, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. Yeah. When we talk about male perpetrators, I think most people think violence. There's obviously coercive control and other topics we'll talk about. And obviously it's important to say the stats majority male perpetrators. I think that's well known to everyone. Is there a difference in those categories there and how common is violence compared to non-violent abuse?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Big question, sorry.
SPEAKER_01That's okay. Can I can I throw a question back at you? Go for it. Why why do you think it's important to distinguish that?
SPEAKER_00Uh for me it was important because when I again when we were starting, my fur the first thing that came to mind was domestic violence and violence is physical, is the first connection that I made.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then I I did not really understand a lot of the intricacies of coercive control. The more I looked into it, the more prevalence I saw of domestic violence cases where people might not be hit, um, but their entire life has been uprooted and almost destroyed, and there hasn't been that physical violence element. Um, so that was a misconception of mine. But yeah, I thought that would be an important place to start. Not so much on the male-female point, it was more the the physical and non-physical violence.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Yeah, because um we do often hear in the DV world, yeah, but women um women use violence as well, or women perpetrate DV in different ways from, you know, um becoming emotionally dysregulated, name-calling, things like that. And I think we're always curious as clinicians to go like, oh, okay, and why is that relevant? Because humans become dysregulated, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, when we look at the context of DV, we do know it's a gendered, a gendered issue. Um and if we looked at every person who ever became dysregulated, we'd say everyone was a DV demon trader.
SPEAKER_00I think the stat was like 90, it was like mid-90s, which I think is I don't think people can comprehend how one-dimensional that is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And and we know that women are dying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Men aren't dying. Um so yeah, that in itself is a whole conversation around agenda issues around DV, but I think you're right, where people have this misconception that, like, oh, DV is physical violence, and we have this perception of men being physically violent. And then when we have these other definitions around emotional abuse, around financial abuse, around coercive control, people can attach that to be like, oh, well, now women can perpetrate violence as well. They might not be hitting men, but they're, you know, becoming dysregulated or name-calling or stonewalling and things like that with their partners. And what we're always looking for in DV is a pattern of behavior, a pattern of power over. And it's often when we dive further into these instances where men are going, yeah, but this person, this woman I know, she was violent, or my ex-partner, she was emotionally abusive to me. If we really dissect that pattern between that couple, she's trying to fight for power with. She's so power under that it's eliciting certain behaviors. And these things that we need to be really, really careful of because men can attach to that and go, Well, well, if I was triggering her abuse, then she's triggering my abuse, therefore I have permission to abuse because I was being triggered, you know. So we we always are really careful when we explain these things and take it to the context of that couple. But what we see as clinicians within that context is yeah, women are becoming dysregulated because they're being abused, because they're power under. And all they're trying to do is gain some safety and some power with.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The difference in um perpetrating domestic violence is the power over. The goal is to have power over someone. And that's when it's not safe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just to preface, didn't want to word that question a way that supported that. It was more how do we word it in a way that we can talk about that presumption almost? And yeah, I think even just the the topic of domestic violence is quite often talked about as if it's subjective.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's not, it's not a political issue. It's not a I mean, there's social elements to it, but it's not something that's debatable. I think we quite often look at statistics and go, oh yeah, but this, but this, but this. When it comes to violence and safety and people's lives, we cannot ignore that. Um and it is, again, I I don't have the number in front of me, but it is mid-90s in that regard to male to female um violence. So I think, yeah, just to preface, that was not the way that that was meant to come across.
SPEAKER_01I think it's a good question to ask though. And like I think we were talking about before, it's it can be really hard to talk to these things because we've got to go, and here's the context and here's all the fine print that can kind of come with that question. Yeah. I think it's a really good question to ask because that's the assumption that people have.
SPEAKER_00It is, yeah. And it's important to address from the get-go because I think for anyone listening that that might have had that, um, if they don't address that at the start, they're not going to actually understand anything you talk about from there. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it is a really important thing to to talk about. Kind of said at the start, there's there's that element of power over another. What I found was there's that control element and the threat of punishment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So coercive control, I think importantly, is subtle. It's quite subtle. It's not it's not really considered these quite overt behaviors and something that people kind of recognise a lot of. Um, but some really clear kind of examples of coercive control can even be like, let's say, um, and that's just preface in these examples I'm talking about predominantly heterosexual couples as well, just to make that note. But you know, say she wants to go out to dinner with her friends, he's going to be making a bit of a fuss around that. And he might not be directly saying, No, you can't. Um, you can't do that because he doesn't want to be perceived as controlling, you know, in his worldview, he wants to be perceived as the hero. So he might start to say things like, Oh, um, might start to oh gosh, what's the word I'm looking for? Villainize her friends as well. You know, why would you go see Sarah? You know, she said this to you, blah, blah, blah. Um, why would you go see that person? Or it might even be around, if you do, it means you don't love me. So, you know, we've heard of cases where she might go plan a movie night with her girlfriends. He comes along and goes, Oh, but I had this secret date I'd planned for us. And now you've ruined it. And now I'm not gonna take you on another date because you've ruined that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because you're you're choosing your friends over me. So it feels really subtle, but the end result is this woman now feels she can't go hang out with her friends because she's going to make him upset. So now she would change her behavior to appease him, and now she feels safe. And that's that that threat as well. It's not always this threat of go and I'll punch you.
SPEAKER_00It's having this intense emotional reaction around an event so that you associate it with that negative outcome and you eventually end up appeasing to it.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And even to the point where it gets to the point where it's the huffs and puffs. So she might go, Hey, I'm gonna go see Sarah on the weekend. He's and straight away her nervous system responds as this is threatening because I know that he's going to have pan tremor. Yes. He's going it's gonna make my life hell. I'm going come home from Sarah and it'll be he'll be cranky about this, or he'll go to bed and not not talk to me for a week and things like that. So it feels it feels more subtle because in comparison to punching someone in the face or throwing something, it feels smaller, but it's really not because the end result is still someone who fears their safety and starts to behave in a way that maintains safety. There is a massive difference between respecting someone and having respect and kindness for your partner versus I'm appeasing my partner to stay safe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, we'll come back to the point in a in a minute. But yeah, the the distinction to make there is it doesn't the threat doesn't have to be an addition of something, it can be a withdrawal of something. Yeah. So I'm gonna with it like the example you used before, like I'll withdraw any love or affection or attention or anything. I'm just gonna stonewall you for a week now. Um, and that's that can be a threat as much as the addition of something. Yeah. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01And again, in context and within a pattern as well. You know, so this isn't just because she's going to hang out with Sarah on the weekend. This is when she goes to work, stays back at work, or when um she is perceived to choose the children over him. Uh it can be in the context of anything. Yeah. She's late home from getting the groceries. You can it can be in the context of anything, not just this this one event per se.
SPEAKER_00And it's always done in a way that's um oh, what is that word?
SPEAKER_01Is it plausible deniability?
SPEAKER_00Plausible deniability, that's the one. I could not get that. But yeah, done with enough plausible deniability that you're questioning your own self rather than their in their their actions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because again, no one wants to be the bad guy in their own story. So it's I'm gonna position myself as this is caretaking for you. I know what's best for you, this is how I show love. Um, it's because you're really important to me, it's my job to protect you. Even all of those undertones are quite patriarchal in themselves and misogynistic in themselves. And even that is positioning me as the person of power. It's my job to take care of you, it's my job to love you, my job to protect you because you're this vulnerable small person. And it's it's yeah, delivered in a way that's loving and and kind. And you'll often hear women say, Oh, but he was really caring. He, you know, he was really caring if I went out and did this, and he really wanted me to stay at home. He just really loved to spend time with me.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, um see the underlying intention of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's a lot to kind of dissect there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's an issue as well with the online space, not to name names here, but there is a narrative going around in terms of like masculinity and what that means in a relationship. And I think for people that that do seek that control in the relationship, it it serves as perfect validation to say I just want to provide or I just want to do this, but I think the addition is at the cost of someone um doing what I say or someone doing it uh fulfilling the wish that I have. It's like, well, I'll provide this, but that means that you have to not do this, and that that's coercive control in a sense. And I think yes, no one is talking about that, at least online, in terms of that whole how how masculinity presents and and femininity in a in a relationship sense. And I think it can get sweat very quickly down that road. Uh you said like you worked earlier on with a lot of men that perpetrate. What are some of the kind of justifications they're using in their in their minds when they're coming in?
SPEAKER_01Most of the time it's she triggered me.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Yeah. So it's not this ideology kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's either she triggered me into this outburst or or using violence and uh more physical violence. And if it's that more subtle coercive control, it's this adoption of this legacy of it's my job to protect. It's my job as man of the house, and my perception of man in the house looks like this. And it's often that they have now adopted this legacy of what it means to be a man and how to show up, and that's what we often saw in in young people as well, adopting the legacy of their fathers. And it's it becomes more and more subtle each generation. Um, so it might be this justification of well, my dad would hit my mum, but I've never hit my wife. The result is the same.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's still a control element there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You have a compliant wife because she's terrified.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you don't have someone who respects you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you don't respect them either. Yeah. So a lot of the time it it is around either w with the more physical outbursts. It was she she triggered me, she deserved it. Um, and a lot of the time with more of that coercive control, it's it's my right and my duty to to adopt this stance in my family, man of the house kind of legacy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and and seeping into that, yeah, uh more like you know, toxic masculinity, that that surfacing line as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, interesting. And on that point of modelling like their father, how often on what is it that that it is a cycle that's continuing?
SPEAKER_01All about a hundred percent of the time. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, it's you know, if we look at like social learning, right? But um, it is, and I I think we mentioned this before when we were on a call a while back, but often what I see in the couple space is a lot of couples therapists when they're working with men who who have used violence, who are using coercive control, albeit they're not trained in DV, so we I think we need to preface that. But a lot of therapists are looking for this wounded little boy behind men who use violence and perpetrate, but a lot of the time there's not. They've adopted this grandiosity of being a man, adopted this legacy of grandiosity of I am a man, therefore I get to, yeah, or I must.
SPEAKER_00It's not yeah, it's I'm more important.
SPEAKER_01I'm more important. Yeah. I I have to take on this role to take on power. Uh, this is how I saw my dad take take that on. And I have been told since a very young age that I am, you know, maybe it's the older brother, you're the man of the house when I'm not around. And so he steps into that legacy and steps into that grandiosity of, oh, well, this is how I achieve that control because you are there to serve me and I'm there to have power over you. And the only way I can do that is to be big and that and scary or manipulative.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like I'm just thinking from a psychology point of view, how do you even navigate that as a therapist when when there is that common, like you said before, people are looking for a little wounded boy, but it is that grandiose sense of self almost. I'm just thinking from psychology points, the way that you're gonna treat that is completely different. So how would you, yeah, how how do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so first of all, and it's gonna sound like psych 101, right? Is that rapport? You like we have to get that rapport with that client. So sometimes it is a little bit of padding some ego because I need to be able to, like when I tell you that this is not okay, I need that to land.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if I psychoed you, if I throw stats at you, yeah, I've lost you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I need to appeal to that human behind this wall.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if I can find that person and if I can grab onto that slither of humanity that I know is there and appeal to that, then I've got you. And then now when I I say, hey, this isn't okay, when I say we're gonna do something different, this person's more likely to go, okay, because they trust me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's that level of trust.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's still trust and safety, it's still the bare bones of sight, but the wording has to be really careful, the reframing of behavior has to be really careful. Um, but you really need to deliver the intervention in a way that matches the person sitting in front of you. Um, there's no kind of evidence base on, you know, here's the model to work with men who use violence. But what I would say is a lot of the men I've I've worked with anyway, and from my clinical experiences, men appreciate a sharpshooter, someone who's going to tell them straight. Um, but we have to do that carefully as well. Because if I've just met you and I'm gonna go, hey, let's do something different, they're gonna be like, nah, yeah, you're gone.
SPEAKER_00It's that conflict straight away. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And it's that power over again. They're like, you're coming in to try and get power over me. No, I'm gonna maintain my power and probably perpetrate even harder now. So it is a really tricky thing to balance your relationship with someone in that sense, but it has to be in a way that when you put an intervention in place, this person's at least going to be receptive to it. Yeah. And that's the important part. And I think, you know, that's where um we we don't get that in our degrees. Yeah. Um, a lot of clinicians I'll butt heads against too because you know, they want us to make change within one or two sessions. Uh just doesn't work. It it just doesn't work. And you you need to establish safety, trust, and rapport. If I want this person to be vulnerable with me, I need that there. I need that safety net for them to step into vulnerability of going, oh shit, something's gonna change here and I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00And it's probably a level of self-awareness as to why they're there. And so the wall is gonna be even higher. If you're pushing on that first, second, third, even session, it's it's too soon. Like they're not comfortable, they're not, there's that, there isn't that trust element. And then when you say the the kind of you've got to pad the ego a little bit, I think that's such an important point as well, because even just remaining like passive isn't enough in that regard, because they're yeah, they've got to have that level of respect, which again, if you're a female therapist, is probably hard to get.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00How do you navigate that without reinforcing certain behaviours?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So um, with the way that I was trained, we we utilize an intervention called reframing, which is where I am bringing up the behavior, the problematic behavior, the benign intent behind the behavior. So I can see this is why you're probably doing that. And then if I was to leave it there, I'm validating.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But then third step is the and this is why it's not okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But the reason it's not okay is like and again, if if I'm working with a couple where that is evident, I can't then say the reason that that is not okay is because you're hurting her. Because one, he doesn't care. Two, it it validates him. He's like, Oh, well, it's working and it makes it dangerous.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I have to make his motivating operator his stuff. You know, the reason it isn't okay is because you are going to lose her. Yeah. If if this continues in this way. You know, I know that you want people around you. I know you want people to perceive you in a certain way. My worry is it's not working out for you. People are not perceiving you that way. Let me show you another way that you can meet your goals.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's safe.
SPEAKER_00And like I'm just sitting there going, what about you know the victim in that regard? How does that work? Because obviously, yeah, you've you've got your bird's eye view of it's gonna take a little while to get rapport here. And then I'm thinking victims they're like, we need help, this is getting like dangerous. How do you kind of deliver that reassurance that it's or how do you even navigate that? Because I'm sitting here going, if that if and I can't just to purpose put I can't put myself in those shoes and live bin in it. But if I was sitting there in that position, I'd be going, This isn't what I was expecting. Like I was expecting someone to say this is wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, how do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So you're still calling out bad behavior.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You you still are, um, but you're not putting in the intervention yet. Yeah. Yeah. So when you we're not when we're reframing that third part of the reframe is, yeah, this this isn't okay. You're not getting what you want. Um, you do have to be really careful about how much not that you're validating uh the victim survivor's perspective, but how much you are emphasizing their voice in that initial session. The more that I do that, the more at risk that person is. So, and this is where um I get really worried about the couples counselling space when there is DV, uh, because couples counsellors traditionally aren't trained um in DV unless they've come from a a a background a bit like mine. There's definitely other um counselors on the coast that have. Um, but for the most part, if if you're kind of taking that uni into private practice, you're not gonna get training or experience. And you're you're it's sitting in front of you and you can inadvertently create danger for for this woman.
SPEAKER_00That's a massive point to talk about. Yeah. Um, especially I think, yeah, just from that couples therapy point of view, like you're probably gonna end up there first if you're if you are in a DV situation before you end up with someone trained in it, because it's just the way that there isn't a lot of DV trained clinicians out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That would get missed all the time then.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and sometimes um, you know, you have I it's always a red flag for me when a male makes the appointment. Always.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_01Always, always. I'm straight away. I mean, I all all I can't take this lens off. I've been working this field for so long. The lens just doesn't come off. Um it's not to say I see every couple and every man is a perpetrator, but it's just something that I've always got eyes on. But it's always a red flag when a man makes an appointment. I'm always like, okay, what's what's the difference? And it's here.
SPEAKER_00Is it playing out in the she's having this reaction and and I've got a problem with that, or is it how is it playing out?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's definitely like a wee wee wee, you know, we're having these issues, we've got lots of conflict, things like that. Um, but my concern around that is it's the grooming of the therapist. So what a lot of therapists don't realize, and like we hear about this in our studies too, and when we get face to face with clients, how you know they can pull the wool over our eyes, and I have had the wool pulled over my eyes, do not get me wrong. Um, but it is it is a grooming tactic, and we know that perpetrators use a lot of grooming of the people around their victim, yeah. Um, because they need to be positioned as the good guy who tried everything.
SPEAKER_00That was the point I was gonna come to next. Is sometimes the people that you would sit there and go, I could never see that, are the people that are doing it because they they look after their reputation in in in everyone else's eyes, so much so, so that it it is plausibly deniable to an extent there.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if that's the right word in that use, but even even in separation, yeah, you know, when they get to family law court, oh but I I tried to get us to couples counseling, she didn't want to borrow it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All this sort of stuff. So, well, yeah, because it wasn't safe. And it's just another tool into your tool belt to to come against her in a family law. So the these are just the things that we need to have eyes on. And it's not to say that when that person calls, I go, oh no. Um it's not feeling, yeah. Yeah, it means that I seek extra supervision. Yeah. It means that I um handle things in in different ways. So lots of lots of couples counsellors will actually do like individual sessions or individual phone calls before they see a couple, and a lot of them will say, Oh, it's so I can assess safety. And my argument back is okay, well, if you're trained in assessing safety, how are you doing that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's relying on the fact that someone's going to be forthcoming with information, and it's just probably never going to be the case.
SPEAKER_01No, you know, we've got men tapping women's phones. We've got them standing there while she's making online call, yeah. She's not going to somebody say, very rarely do we get the hey, I'm I'm really worried, but then they're not predominantly reaching out to private practice councils, they're going through um a community services, you know, women's health centre, schools. Yeah. We know that women have touch faced with seven points of community before they actually get to a DB specialist. You know, would that be school, police, friends, social groups, um, parenting groups, uh coaches, things like that to slowly go, oh, you know, we're having these dramas, we're having these problems before they will come to uh a specialized service. Uh, because uh women like they don't want to admit that they're in a DV relationship because they love this man, they fell in love with this man, so they feel responsible, they feel embarrassed that like how did I end up here? No one ends up in a relationship with someone thinking this is where it's gonna get to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I want to um come back to that, the after effects of that in terms of self-trust and decision making and things. But just while we're there, how does it transition in terms of relationship trajectory? Like, is there certain flags you can look out for in the start? But then I know like it can be this facade for a certain amount of time and then the behaviours start to come in when you've kind of gotten comfortable. How do you generally see those or hear those? Because you wouldn't see them in clinic yet. Um, how would they generally start?
SPEAKER_01You mean like in the relationship to it? Yeah, again, really very different. Um, but what we often talk about is I don't know if you've heard the term like love bombing.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that really intense need for attachment to newly start. So um this this person might come across as needy, always really wanting to spend time with you, um, which is really hard because when you're starting a relationship, you naturally want to do that, right? You you kind of become a bit obsessed with that per se. And we're like, I I want to spend all my time with you. Yeah. Um you're talking all the time. I think you're like in each other's DMs and texting all the time. But it's it can it can look really full-on. Um, but it can be perceived as like, oh, he's so interested in me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so, you know, we don't we don't want to generalize these things. So then people kind of go out thinking like, oh, everyone who's interested in me is going to perpetrate violence.
SPEAKER_00If you're getting in a healthy relationship, they're gonna be interested in you as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. Like I'm stage ten clear, am I? I'm very interested in my feeling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're not saying that that's the that's the flag. You should it's a green flag, but it's also convenient.
SPEAKER_01Where it becomes a red flag is if um you're not able to be as receptive. Let's say you're uh studying and working, right? So you just don't have that much time. And this person's always like, you know, I want to spend, but I'll you never want to spend time with me. And you know, I really want to spend time with you, but you're never available to me. And you're like, well, yeah, logistically I can't be. Yeah, I'm trying my best, but I can't be. It's when it comes with consequence. Yeah. That's that's that um, that's where it becomes problematic. So you'll often uh have a bit of a flag as such around, you know, um, but you you're not interested in me as much as I am interested in you because you're not making time for me. Yeah. And it's at the start of a relationship, we shouldn't have expectations that someone's gonna drop their life for us and make all these rapid changes. Yeah, we can make space for someone, uh, but doesn't have to be it's such a rapid or intense, right? Another um flag people often kind of reflect on and and look back on is the isolation from friendship groups. So it'll be someone who, you know, if you're going out with drinks with all your friends and you're like, hey, you know, come with my friends and I'm oh no, I don't want to do that. They just just want this one on one time. They're not interested in in your social group, they're interested in isolating you from that social group.
SPEAKER_00And it's friends, but it's just it's support networks as a whole.
SPEAKER_01Okay, it can be it can be work, it can be so really starting to, like I said before, like villainize the people around you. So then you have to turn to this person. They're your only person, yeah. The only one who gets it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh they're the only person I can talk to about this, or they're the only one there for me because my friends aren't there for me anymore. And it's just all this messaging coming from that person.
SPEAKER_00Just making making you more and more vulnerable um the further it goes. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So they're some of the flags that people kind of um express when they're reflecting back and go, Oh, I can see some of those signs. Can even um come down to like sexual coercion as well. So women often report things like, uh, I felt like I had to have sex with him to keep him, to keep him interested.
SPEAKER_00That was a point I was gonna ask was podcast uh why she stayed. I don't know if you listen to her. It was the one that I listened to the most just to get questions and topics for this. Um and they were talking about coercive control and how there is like a sexual element to it sometimes. Yeah. How do you yeah, I I struggled to understand the way that that is because I think again, I'm very new to this topic, so I'm choosing my words carefully. Yeah. But um, yeah, from coercive control, I I can understand the point in terms of influencing the s the social supports and everything so that someone's vulnerable and then gain control that way. How do you see the use of sex play out in that way?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so in terms of um like sex should always be able and feel safe to say no. So a lot of the time women will report, I maintain having sex with him just to keep the peace. Yeah. So it wasn't necessarily that I was scared he he would hit me or he'd have a big, you know, physical tantrum if I said no.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it was just more of if I said no, the huffs and puffs, the stonewalling, the belittling, you never want to have sex with me anymore, it must be a year problem. You better get your hormones checked, you know. Um, what's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_00That's more of like a compliant behavior than it is like a a connection as it should be. Yeah. Um, like a joint connection that's both consensual. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and we have to, there's such a broader context around sex in relationships. Because again, if we're looking at heterosexual relationships, women have actually only had autonomy in sex since the 70s.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like Which is not that long ago, really.
SPEAKER_01Not that long ago, yeah. Uh before that, it was definitely like you just had sex because you were men's property. I mean, it still is a very massive theme and a massive undercurrent in a lot of relationships today, even safe-loving relationships. There's still this um this feeling of uh this is my job as a good wife.
SPEAKER_00Because in other countries, like what we're speaking specifically about Australia and like nuclear kind of couples in that regard, but yeah, that that it's still prominent in many countries. And I I guess like I'm just thinking on the spot here, but I guess that's where you would see the cycle kind of element come in because the 70s again not that long ago, and so you're seeing men in the 70s that are used to that and engaging in that, and then kids coming through in generations, and then oh and then we're starting to see more coercive control than it is that physical element as well. Is that a hypothesis as to why?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's hard to talk about like generationally with sex as well. I think sex more so comes down to the social constructs that we have to choose from. Um, and the social construct that we have to choose from, even still, is that a woman is a man's property. In an in an intimate relationship, she is his.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And therefore she must appease him. And one of the ways to appease him is through sex, is through her body. Um, and so, like I said, even in safe loving relationships, some women, I I talk about this concept of consent a lot, because some women are because of their own beliefs around what it means to be a good partner, are having like sex with their partners just because and they say they're already predisposed. No, but I just feel like I can't because I'm a woman.
SPEAKER_00Predisposition already, yeah, which is that cultural element, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But when we talk about it in a DB concept, it's this um, I feel like I can't say no because of the ramifications. And they might not be him having this really outward burst, but the ramifications might be yeah, withdrawing, yeah, it's like consecration. Yeah, it might be um, you know, name-calling, it might be um that control around her uh contraception choices, things like that as well. Yeah. Um, sexual violence can also come into the concept of um how they're having sex. Yeah. So there's just so much that goes into it.
SPEAKER_00In terms of like the kinds of sex that they're having.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's more, I would assume in that regard, it's more what's the PG word? I'm just gonna use the word violent to be honest, or just like more um it's not a loving act in terms of that regard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's like I'm just having my need met done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm pausing again because there was a really good question I had from that conversation. Um sorry, I've bailed on the thing because I'm like, I just I kept trying to like word it as I was going, I was just really fucking it up.
SPEAKER_01Um You're doing really well. It's a hard actually said well it's hard to frame questions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the point that I was gonna kind of come to was you mentioned like early on at the start, most people are looking for that vulnerable child. Um, and it really is that grandiose sense of self almost. When we're talking about flags for when relationships are starting, it's that needy, clingy kind of thing, which I think you could kind of connect to a vulnerable child is just wanting attention. And how does that grandiose kind of come into it when you're looking at it in terms of like a cyclens at the start? You're seeing someone that's needy, that's clingy, that's again, it's already steering to that controlling behaviour. But grandiose is very separate to someone that's feeling vulnerable, even though that's not obviously what's going on. How does that connect?
SPEAKER_01So, I guess my first part to that is we will always play the role that we need to have our needs met at the time. And if my needs n right now are too brief. Someone in, I'm going to be that vulnerable part of me. Yeah. But once I have you, you're now mine, and now I step into grandiosity.
SPEAKER_00I think it's a common thing that I heard in the space was like people will have multiple relationships and it it is this pattern on both parties in terms of like the victim getting into relationships with perpetrators and obviously perpetrators seeking vulnerable people. Yeah, what are some factors that would that would position someone in a vulnerable state?
SPEAKER_01So again, so many different things. So we have the social constructs in which we get to choose from that we are men's property, uh, that we are less than, um, that we're not worthy if we don't have a man. It's all of these kinds of narratives that can lead us into that. Uh, the other part of it is the generational trauma. Um, so so I can I can speak for myself in that sense, you know. I can speak for myself that, oh well, he never hit me. You know, I saw physical violence growing up.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and just to preface, not my dad, but I saw physical violence growing up. Yeah. That was my perception.
SPEAKER_00Uh so that's like all threshold of this is what's wrong, makes you not look at the other part. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it wasn't until I'd left that relationship to go, oh, okay, here's all of those, you know, red flat, that's not okay, kind of thing. Um, so you know, history of trauma, child abuse and neglect, uh, sense of self, uh, self-worth. The other part of it is as women, we are positioned as emotional caretakers of society. So if we have that vulnerable person, that real needy, attached person, it's this person like I can I can help him, change him, I can look after him.
SPEAKER_00It's that caretaker's role.
SPEAKER_01It's that caretaker's role that we take on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which should not be the role that you take in a relationship, just putting like just to say that so clearly. Exactly. If you're dating someone, you are not their caretaker.
SPEAKER_01Like, no, and I I often um talk, I work with a lot of parents around mental load stuff, and men are always saying, you know, how come after kids we're not having sex anymore, mate? Because no one must have sex with someone they have to caretake for. Yeah. You know, there's a difference between caring for and caretaking. Yes. Um, but it is, yeah, so we are positioned to look after men in that sense, like emotionally caretake for them. Uh so if we're kind of presented with a guy who's, you know, really confused with his emotions and is like, oh, I can be the one to to help him through that.
SPEAKER_00Um rescue a role kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, regardless of trauma history, the social constructs that we have to abide by as women and choose from put can pull us into that too.
SPEAKER_00And it's not to say that like like we're taking that evolutionary lens, but it that's not to say that it's justified in any regards. We're talking specifically about the factors that will predispose someone to getting into it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then you have all of your socio-cultural factors as well. So there is so much that goes into it, but I think it's important to know that like all of those things apply. It's not just someone who grew up with DB. You know, we have many women who have never experienced any form of DB and uh finding themselves in DB relationships. Yeah. Um, on the other end, again, what can predispose someone to being a perpetrator or all those things that we spoke about as well. The social constructs that men have to live by of grandiosity and legacy, uh, childhood trauma and social learning. Um, just genuinely not giving permission to express emotion as safely, like you you mentioned before about youth being confused about anger.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, there's there's lots that kind of go into that. And these are the things, and like I said, we don't like you said, we don't find these things to justify by behavior, and it's important for the perpetrator to understand that too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I know I wanna I want to come back to the socio uh like a socioeconomic misconceptions, but what yeah, when you're working with couples in that clinical setting, you've gotten to the stage where it's been it's known now that there's violence in the relationship. What is the goal as a therapist? It's something that no one talks about in terms of in podcast stuff. Everyone's understanding it, no one's actually going, This is where we go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And that's my difficulty with it all is um we can talk about it to live black and blue, but we have to do something. At some point, someone's gotta do something. Yeah. Um, and we can't rely on government because we know government's so far behind. Um, yeah, when I'm faced with this in a in a clinical setting, it's there, it's out in the open that this relationship isn't safe. It's creating safety. We create safety, by only means possible. Um, I was really concerned when I stepped into private practice coming out of NGO world, and I consulted with some other couples' therapists and I said, How are you working with DV in private practice? And all of them said, We get her to leave. And we know we know that increases risk. And we know the trajectory of that. That person's gonna continue to probably have more relationships where they're experiencing DV, and this person's gonna continue to perpetrate. Yeah, you've just given them permission to perpetrate with someone else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and increase and put yourself in risk in in doing so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. So I create safety, and the way that we create safety looks different for all couples. For some people, it might be supporting that woman to find safe housing, um, safety for her children in in more intense uh circumstances. More often not in those intense circumstances, we are not doing couples therapy and private practice. No, we're we're working alongside child protection, police, things like that. Um, but for the couples that present to me in private practice, it's more around that coercive control.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and what we're doing is creating behavior change with that perpetrator to say, you know, this isn't okay. Let me show you a way that you can instead of having compliant family members, you have family members that respect you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And I want to come back to the point of the differentiation between the roles of a clinician in private practice compared to DCJ. Yeah. But in terms of working with a couple to create safety, is it almost trying to help the male understand what out of this? Trying to understand that if they can seek actual vulnerable connection, it's going to be more fulfilling than it is coercive manipulative.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. For some, for some men it's purely like emotional regulation as well. Yeah. Managing your own um distress, tolerating your own distress. Um, so it can be like bare bones basic, like that. There's definitely been couples where we've separated out. Um, and I've worked with the men one-on-one because uh we we just needed that. It was more interventions for him. And if I keep her there, she's gonna continue caretaking, feeling responsible. He'll continue to make it her problem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's not the fact that someone is appeasing or pleasing or whatever it is, it's that there is that responsibility factor being put on them that is gonna continue that cycle as a whole.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So it's reducing that she triggered me into this anger outburst and go, okay, how do you manage your anger?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Regardless who triggers you.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01How are you just managing your anger here?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and yeah, so sometimes it's bare bones basis of emotional regulation before we could even get to that deeper stuff. Because if I'm gonna poke and pod and go deep, I need you to be able to tolerate the distress that comes with that. You know, if I peel back layers where you now become vulnerable and you don't know how to manage that vulnerability, tolerate that vulnerability, I am creating more danger for this relationship.
SPEAKER_00Would it be the same thing in terms of trying to encourage a woman to leave, but they like we said before, that can be more dangerous. Is it for the same reason that there's probably not going to be the distress tolerance management skills there and the threat of leaving then is gonna spark that more? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I've I've worked with couples, I had a couple that I worked with for over a year where we had bouts of um, I would say like violent episodes where the couple had ended up in um like punching and things like that, throwing and things like that. The difference being is they were both pretty active. Um, and I was really able to set up safety strategies for her. So things like when we noticed his escalation, what was she gonna do with the children and herself as well? To we just have to, we don't want to make it her responsibility, but we also have to put some safety strategies.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we can't just say not your responsibility, let's hope hope that he just manages his anger, you know. So we're we're doing safety planning at the same time. So we had those safety plans in place. We didn't initiate those safety plans with him in the room.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We didn't have that. Um, because if he knows about about that and sees her initiating a safety plan when he's maybe one or two dysregulated, boom. Yeah, you know, he he's losing control and gonna gain it back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we we were really carefully putting safety plans in place.
SPEAKER_00And how do you get to that stage in in terms of in therapy? Like they're probably coming in together at the start. Yeah. How do you then how do you ensure that you can get that session with them individually? How does it get to that point?
SPEAKER_01Just ask for it. Yeah, in person. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00With them both there. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um I as a couples therapist have mostly all of our sessions together, all phone calls together. So if I'm having uh a phone call with partner A, I'll follow up with partner B and I will be really open the whole way through.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, sometimes I have to be strategic in how I'm separating couples to maintain that safety as well. Um, and if I am, if I have like a a safety issue and I need to separate a couple, I'll make that a face-to-face appointment. It will not be telehealth. If I have that issue, I will make it a face-to-face non-negotiable. Um again, I'm just wording that in really clever ways. Yeah. Um, and I'm making sure that both couples have that space. So I'll say, Hey, it sounds like I've got a bit of a thinking, it'll be really good for me to have an individual session with both of you. So it's not just her. And then he's going, Where's mine? And why did you have that with her?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_01And talking about all that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_00Do you have to formulate a plan with her? Obviously, she's going to be questioned about what they spoke about or you guys spoke about individually. Yep. Um, and if her story doesn't align with yours, then that's going to get caught and just risk. Yeah. Um, yeah, I I would imagine you have to be so careful with that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we're not like making up lies or anything like that. Like we're talking to what we did. We're just not, we're just leaving some bits out. I know that there'll be clinicians listening, probably like, no, you need to separate, and like she needs to leave, and blah, blah, blah. That has to be her choice. That is not my job as a counselor to tell her she needs to leave.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can never tell someone what to do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I have to, it has to be her choice. But what I can do is if I have rapport with both, I'm increasing safety because now they have a touch point in community to go to when things aren't safe. Now they have someone to talk to, now they have some vulnerability there, there's safety for them in that connection. Yeah. If I tell her to leave, I lose rapport, she doesn't see anyone.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01At least now when I keep that touchstone with this couple, I can softly refer into other um programs, case management, things like that, that can support her to leave if she decides to. She has a right to decide she wants to stay as well. We aren't here to tell her otherwise. She has to make that decision for herself in the exception of DCJ coming in. Yeah. There has to be that exception there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's let's dive into that. How do we separate private practice from DCJ from um state-funded programs, whatever it is?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So private practice um often, I would say like 90% of the time, aren't coming to couples therapy because there's an acknowledgement of we're in a DV relationship. It's also not a third-party referral. So we're not getting referrals from DCJ saying, hey, I know this cool couples counselor over there, give her a go. No, DCJ and government programs need the evidence-based programs for families and child safety and things like that. So they're often uh contracted to particular programs that have um lots of safety net around them to work with DB, where they can provide a more holistic approach. That would be the ideal, is that we're providing a holistic approach surrounding this family and this couple. So the couples that I am seeing, it's more so, oh, we have lots of conflict. You know, we just can't get our communication right unless this desire of, I want to be in a relationship with this person. I love this person. There's just certain elements that I really don't love. And it takes a lot of unpacking for me to be like, yeah, because that's not safe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's not that this are personality issues. This is not safe.
SPEAKER_00I can imagine as well, at least in that in that setting, you're sitting there going, you've got the the experience and the insight to be like, I know where this is going. And but yet you've got to kind of let them find that on their own.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, sometimes I've definitely had um, you know, I've had because often when um people are initiating couples therapy, she's phoning me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Making the phone call, like, oh, you know, how do I even get my partner through the door and he doesn't want to borrow counselling? Like this is just the the generic counselling, right? But um when we have that initial phone call and I'm asking a little bit more around their conflict patterns, there's been a couple of people where they've said on the that the woman has said on the phone call, yeah, he's physically violent with me when we get in a fight or conflict or or when he's not happy or he abuses alcohol, things like that. Um, I just refer straight to organizations like Relationship Australia, other organizations like Interrelate, um, where they have child protection sort of surrounding them as well, uh, to be able to keep the family safe. So there's definitely times where we just have to say that's not within my scope. And it's not because it's not clinically within my scope, it's I as a private practice don't have support there. Yeah, I don't have the community of support around me um to support safety.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So there is levels of DV I'm happy to work with. But my um blind spot is I have worked in the pointy end of DV for a very long time. So I have to be really careful around my um gosh, what's the word for it? Gosh, what's the word I'm looking for? Bias? Biases, but also like my level of like comfort.
SPEAKER_00Uh yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So with what some couples therapists kind of go, whoa, that's so intense. I'm like, oh, that's not like it's all good. I can work.
SPEAKER_00Do you almost find it harder to work with like the lesser pointy cut end couples?
SPEAKER_03Sometimes.
SPEAKER_00You see you, I would imagine you just get so like desensitized. It's the word I was looking, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I kept saying dis and I'm like, no, it's desensitized. Yeah, I could imagine a hundred percent. And like we spoke on the phone before, but even just in like my experience with working in the MDIS, like I started with the pointing and I just like I don't I just struggle to work with the lesser needs now. Um it very much is what you yeah, you what you start with and what your your personal experience is, there's a lot that goes into it, but yeah, how how do you how do you navigate that now?
SPEAKER_01Supervision. Yeah. Lots of supervision. He's like, no, don't lots of money spent on supervision. Um supervision are just conversations with colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. Uh safety is making things known. A couple therapist, we should never be holding these things on our own. I think a good couples therapist will have a supervisor who has DV experience because you have to run these things by them. So that couple that I was seeing for a long time, I pretty much had supervision nearly every single time because in NGO work, in state government work, we have teams built around us. Yeah. We have, and we should have, not a lot of organizations do it well, but we should have lots of opportunity for debriefing and supervision.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01In private practice, you have to seek that on your own.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you have to be really good at making sure that you have a great supervisor who's happy to work within DV, um, or comfortable with to work within DV, I should say, because we should never see DV and go, oh no, I'm closing my doors. Yeah. Um we They might never go back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You like I think I said to you before, you will lose 90% of the couples on the coast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like it's just so prominent and there's so much undercurrent of it. We can also be in an opportunity to stop it escalating. You know, if couples are coming to us with verbal conflict, name-calling, those lesser and I say lesser points of DV, where we are in an opportunity to create safety before it gets to that point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I initially just go to say it almost always will certainly end up there at some point if that's where you're starting. Um, is that the case? Or do you or is it like is it a degenerative kind of progression?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we definitely see like a ladder. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, you know, um in relationships that were perceived as being like loving and kind and safe and respectful. Uh a lot of women kind of go, it wasn't really till we had our second baby that I kind of saw these things, or maybe they thought having a baby would fix those things that he'd be more inv invested in the relationship and that sort of stuff. Um, and then we have the oh, but he's a good dad narrative coming to play. Yeah. Um, so yeah, definitely, because more stresses placed on that relationship means this person's gonna reign in control a lot more. So yeah, we we definitely do see um more of a ladder kind of effect.
SPEAKER_00Um DCJ. What was your experience like working?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I didn't work in DCJ.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that's the NGO.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um the organization I worked for, we were uh contracted to DCJ in a way that um all of our referrals came directly from DCJ, and it was essentially it was a coercion in itself, it was essentially DCJ going, do this program or we're removing the children. Um so it was it it felt like a last ditch effort to to keep families together. Yeah. Um and yeah, it was I mean, again, you'd you'd see Poitient because DCJ is so flooded by the time families are uh getting two services and receiving support, things are pretty dire. Things are pretty intense. Yeah. Um, but what we saw was a lot of consistency around generational trauma being the crux of what was happening for those families.
SPEAKER_00Um don't have to go into it if you're not comfortable, but just for people that are listening that that have not much experience or knowledge in this area, what does the pointy end actually look like? I I make sure I'm always clicking the 18 plus so you can be as explicit as you want.
SPEAKER_01Um No, that's all right. Pointy end for me is sometimes we walk out of sessions and yeah, if you can be explicit, say fuck, I hope they see you next week. I hope this person doesn't become another statistic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You you you leave some of those sessions going like, please be at your appointment next week.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_01Please open the door to me next week. That's pointy end.
SPEAKER_00I can imagine that would be so hard as well on initial when you're again, like you said, there is there is a certain amount of time you have to spend padding and building rapport. Yeah. And if you can see that they're at that point, you're like, fuck, is it already too late?
SPEAKER_01Like Yeah, like I I um one of the before I had my children, one of the families I worked with, I got to a session and he said to me, if he'd been in and out of jail for violent crimes uh his whole life. Shot his dad, like just really intense to it. And I got there and he said, if she ever leaves me, I'll do whatever it takes to go back to jail, just so you know. Wow. And I was like, this guy's gonna know where I live. Like it it was really intense. It's probably one of the families I still think about to this day. Um, and yeah, that was a a DCJ family, and we had to advocate so hard to get pr this woman protected. Yeah. Um, because you know, we want to believe in rehabilitation, but some people their their the need for control is so intense that you you will not, and he definitely um was a perpetrator who groomed. You know, there was so much groom, and I I could just see straight through I'm like, I know exactly what you want here. You it's quite obvious to a clinician, but all of his caseworkers loved him. Um so I had to dwell. It's a lot of advocacy.
SPEAKER_00It's like that narcissistic kind of almost like psychopathy in that grandiose, but you're very charming and very convincing and very yeah. Yeah. And it's the the system is just not bulletproof for that. Like they will get a certain way um through the system on their own until they get to a point where again they work with someone like yourself that that can see it for what it is. Um yeah, how did you manage how did how did that story end up?
SPEAKER_01That story ended up we we end up being able to put her into witness protection.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I again I I go back to the the pointy end, I think. Is a lot pointier than what people realise. Like, and again, we get we just we made that connection before that it that it is a ladder. And if you're and if you are in that point, like where you're noticing things, it's like you really do need to get there, get that intervention, get that help as soon as you can, because the longer you leave it, the worse it will get.
SPEAKER_01And it like even and that that case was like a more physically violent case, so that was more of a stereotypical kind of DV case.
SPEAKER_00What about in the c yeah, in the in the knot?
SPEAKER_01In the knot, we are looking at like system abuse. So men who are dragging women through family law court um and yeah, using their male privilege all through family law to just slander this woman and put roadblocks in place at all times. So yeah, I just have so many cases, there's probably more of those cases, um, where we're fearful because it's like this guy's so clever and covering his tracks and positioning himself as a hero in this narrative. I am terrified of your safety, of your child's safety, because of how clever they are at navigating their system and how much the system is actually supporting them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm scared that if you step one way too wrong, you'll be the one in jail. Like it's that that's kind of pointy end when you think about like really intense guys in like horror films, you're like, they exist.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01They are, they are here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm just even just thinking about that. Like if you're if you're with someone that is yeah, that that narcissistic or that kind of psychopathy traits paired with with a high intelligence, that'd just be like recipe for disaster. And so hard to help.
SPEAKER_01Like so hard. So and that and you know, those kinds of presentations take really specialized independently, you know, forensic psychology. Like that'd be where we're it does kind of refer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, where does that crossover come?
SPEAKER_01Does it cross over in terms it it does, but like that would be like a referral kind of your thing? And and this is where we're missing the mark is the referrals normally go to a behaviour change program, like men's behavior change. I don't know if you've heard about those, but they're awful programs. Yeah, um, you get a bunch of grandiose men together. Um and you could imagine like they're talking about, yeah. How much of validating each other and in their abuse of power?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so yeah, that's where it's kind of missing the mark. But what this really needs is some really intense individual forensic psychology when we have presentations like that. Um, and that's probably not for like rehabilitation as such.
SPEAKER_00I think sometimes we need to understand that there there isn't going to be there just can't be society yet to get me better off out of it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like we we really need to be we always want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but there will always be that minority where it's like this this person's just not a safe person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, so that would be a forensic psychologist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What's your experience in terms of demographics? I think there's some pretty solid misconceptions there. Like most people might think that it's lower socioeconomic groups that are where the statistics are lying, to my interpretation, is pretty spread um quite evenly. But yeah, I think talking about it is is important because it really is all aspects of society. Yeah. Um, what do you see in in the clinical space?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely that. Yeah. In my private practice, I just see more white privilege because people have access to finances to support things like that. They they have other privileges afforded to them. So I think socioeconomic kind of only comes into it in terms of access uh and again, culture, access, uh, annual perception. So again, you spoke a bit about before about my white privilege. So if I'm seeking support because I've been in a DV relationship, I'm probably gonna have more access to the indigenous woman next to me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so and I'm probably going to be perceived in in a different way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So there's there's all of those kind of roadblocks that can come into that. Um I see I and even in when I was working alongside DCJ, a lot of people automatically think those, you know, housing. All I'm working with is people in housing. I was working with people that lived in the on the waterfronts, yeah, you know, in million-dollar houses, and you're walking and going, where did this go wrong? Like they're they're looking like the Brady Bunch family from the outside. And when you really break down what's happening in that family, you're like that generational trauma is still coming through. Um, and sometimes they're they're the more scary ones because they have finances um and access to be able to hide.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh would you see that more in clinical practi in uh private practice? Sorry, because it's again, I'm thinking like with the state funded programs, you're you're probably not going to get as many well-off people going through those as you would going through private practice.
SPEAKER_01Well, sometimes, sometimes it depends if like child protection is involved.
SPEAKER_00Involved, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And often you don't get you no more well-off families involved in child protection unless it's really intense because again, there's this perception of all they've got access to mental healthcare plans, they've got access to what pay for a family therapist, that sort of stuff. And so that can impact the triage in terms of who receives that support. Um, so often if you're seeing a a perceived well-off family when you're working alongside DCJ, you are terrified because you're like, How bad is it? What's going on? And then the other side of it in in private practice, yeah, I am seeing uh more privileged uh families and and couples. And again, it it is um a bit scary because they have the means to hide what's going on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Just throwing layers of hurdles in front of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We were gonna talk about that kind of generational trauma and the the cycle and stuff, and I mentioned um before we started recording my experience in working with teens in in a boxing gym and seeing some kind of teens come through from domestic violence families, and again, from that male's point of view, like I'm working with these guys and their ability to differentiate when's appropriate to use um violence because obviously boxing is a violent sport, but there is a healthy version in terms of like it's competitive and it's a sport.
SPEAKER_03And it's consensual, and it's consensual. And so like two parties actively engaged in each other.
SPEAKER_00So miss that main one.
SPEAKER_03They know they're getting involved.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Again, I I come back to that point of consent because it's it's knowing when it's appropriate and it's appropriate when it's consensual. But when we were just doing drills or something and there wasn't any contact involved, they'd be like putting contact in and they'd be really pushing for that. Um, and it was just that awareness, again, when that they're at that young age, and I'm sitting there going, gosh, they've they've got this from somewhere. You know, if you're a teacher and you're working in the school environment, how can you look for it uh in teens or in children?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, again, really contextual because you can have a withdrawn child or a really outward child. So sometimes those kids are pinned as like the naughty kid in the classroom, he's really, you know, having lots of outbursts. A lot of teachers will um report seeing that because school is safe and it's often when we feel safe that we allow emotions to our eyes and we allow it ourselves to unmask and things like that. So safe teachers and safe people will often see the more physical outbursts from children and young people. Um, and yeah, that can be at things like you know, with a um with a trainer, with a coach, yeah, stuff like that. Or you will see a more withdrawn child as well, because to access my anger feels so scary. Yeah. So the only way I've seen anger expressed is through it's dangerous. Yeah. So I'll suppress that.
SPEAKER_00So it can glow it's almost picked up when it's inappropriate in the environment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And being being reserved and and shut down will just get missed because you're not presenting anything that's like inappropriate.
SPEAKER_01But you've also a lot of children um inadvertently learn how to keep themselves safe through their behaviour too, so they will be really compliant. You can have an overly compliant child, you know, the the good kid. Oh, they're so quiet, they're so good, because they've had to be learned, they've had to learn to be quiet and good. Because I've I've learned when I'm non-compliant, it's dangerous.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um and the inverse as well, sorry. Like especially with the with the kids in boxing, like it would almost end up where they'd be arguing for control of what they did in the session. Yeah. And they're they're they're they're a kid that they can't run the session, like it was so obvious that it was just this control. Um, and again, I'm just sitting there going, this has got to come from somewhere.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And it it's just how have they learned to maintain safety and control in their environment, and that's what's gonna play out, and that's what we're going to to see.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so yeah, again, it's really dependent because you could have that kid who's adopted that grandiose legacy who comes into boxing class and is like, fuck everyone, I'm gonna do what I want to do because this is what I see. Yeah. But then you've got the kid who's overly compliant because they're terrified. If I step one foot out of line, I'll be disciplined.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, that that good kid could also be experiencing DV in the home. My my biggest tip for adults is to be a safe adult. Yeah, you don't it's not your job to investigate, but child protection is everyone's problem. And if we can be a safe adult, it means children have a safe place to land. We don't always have to be investigators.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um Well, that can just push it further away sometimes, eh?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah. So um, you know, children will protect their family at all costs. So if you are kind of outwardly asking, they're probably going to protect their dad, protect their mum. Mum's probably saying, Don't tell anyone, you know, he'll hurt us more, or don't tell anyone, dad loves me, he's just angry at work, things like that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, it's it's not always looking for those outward controlling behaviors. It's also looking for kids who are withdrawn, kids who are overly compliant. It can really be any or anything. Yeah. Yeah. But if you're a safe adult for them to come to, that's all you can do. Yeah. And obviously reporting things when when they've um what's the word? Come to you and yeah, when they've um disclosed. Disclosed, there you go. I'm like, it's not a confession.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When there's a disclosure, yeah, um, that you're acting on that disclosure, that you're, you know, telling them that we don't keep secrets. It's my job to keep you safe. And so I need to tell people who can also help to keep you safe if that's not okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And kind of the flow-on effect from that, how would you how does in early intervention in in that regard work? Like, is there anything in place for if you're seeing a family where there is domestic violence and there is kids involved, is there support for them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So there's lots of community programs that we have here um on the coast. So places like Oz Child in Interrelate and Relationships Australia all doing kind of relational work around DV where it's taking a bit more of a whole family approach and working with young people in the home as well as the adults in the home as well. Um, so yeah, there's there's more community programs out there. Um, there's wonderful social workers in in private practice locally as well, who are very trauma-informed, who have lots of um training in domestic violence as well. So uh one of my lovely colleagues, she's a play therapist and can really support families in in when children have experienced domestic violence as well, to do that therapy with the children. So they have new tools to regulate their emotions, new ways of attaching to people that aren't unsafe. In in that though, like we do talk about attachment and like how we attach to others, how we um perceive others attaching to us as well. Um, but yeah, if if we, you know, within DV, if if within that family DV, if a young person who might not be directly experiencing domestic violence, i.e. it's not being perpet perpetrated onto them but around them with their family members, i.e. dad towards mum, yeah, then they perceive that as, you know, that's not a healthy attachment, but that might be what they perceive as that what you said before, that threshold.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um Yeah, as to what's appropriate and what's not. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I also learn uh attachment through fear rather than through safe loving relationships. Uh my attachment to others is formed through on the basis of fear.
SPEAKER_00And that's when you find people that are like seeking it out without realizing, or they'll not seeking it, sorry, it's the wrong word, but like ending up in relationships that that are more likely to end up there because they they're basing it off of I'm that fear feeling is normal. And so that's what they're gravitating towards.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And that attachment trauma means they're normally like that anxiously attached person or that disorganized attachment as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Where where are you looking to in the space now? Like what's your your own private practice? What's what does the future hold for you?
SPEAKER_01So I'm taking this step back from NGO World just for a little bit while I kind of focus on my family. Um and in my private practice, so because you know, working in this space has always been a bit of a passion of mine, I have what we call like victim services uh stream. Have you ever heard of that before? Yeah, so victim services is um a government incentive for New South Wales. Different uh state governments have different forms, but um, it's a victims of crime um support and scheme. So essentially, if you have been a victim of crime, like domestic violence, whether that be in an intimate relationship or family violence growing up or child abuse and neglect, uh you can go online and apply for 22 free counselling sessions with a registered victim services provider, and and that's how I kind of um work with vulnerable people in in my private practice is through that victim service.
SPEAKER_00And um it's for sexual assaults as well, isn't it? Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I feel like it's um yeah, it's not a clear-cut topic, and it's never gonna be it's never gonna be easy to talk about in a segmented, um, compartmentalized way. Like it's so multiversed. But yeah, we'd love to yeah, continue this chat. I think it's something that's super important, and especially I don't think there is a lot of men actually seeking to, again, like you said, the men that are seeking therapy are sometimes the ones that are doing it. But I don't think there's a lot of positive influences out there to be able to go, like, hey, we need to understand this, like we are the problem. And there is, it can't just be one-sided in terms of women saying, hey, we need to fix this problem, like at some point it's got to come together. So it's a super important topic, super hard to talk about. Um, but yeah, I I appreciate it, it's been super insightful.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me, and thank you for being brave enough to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, look, we we worded some questions wrong, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_01They got their own name.
SPEAKER_00All right, awesome. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Sweet. Cool. That was a lot harder than I thought it was gonna be. No, no, no, no. It went well. It was a lot harder to steer the conversation than I thought it would be.