#03 - Sophie Cook - Trauma, Addiction & The Human Condition.

In this episode of The Applied Mind, I sit down with psychotherapist Sophie Cook to unpack the deep connections between trauma and addiction. Sophie brings a raw and human perspective from her extensive experience —exploring the ways we carry trauma, how it manifests in destructive patterns, and what the underlying mechanism of addiction and trauma actually are. Whether you’ve walked this path yourself or want to understand it better, Sophie’s insights will shift the way you think about trauma and recovery.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:18

You ready? Ready? All right. Sophie, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hello, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

For those of us who don't know you, who are you and what exactly do you do?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Uh well, I'm a psychotherapist and I work in a mix of private practice and in a hospital setting. I work primarily with, well, really a range of individuals, but mostly people who usually have a trauma background or have addiction. Yeah, that's that's a little nutshell.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

One thing we wanted to put at the start of the episode when we were talking about this the other day, is a bit of a trigger warning. A few things, um trauma, addiction, childhood trauma, maybe. So just a fair warning for anyone that um is listening and might find that challenging, but we'll we'll ease into it. How did you get into psychotherapy?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So I it's actually interesting because I think I was 14 when I decided I wanted to do psychology. Didn't 14? Yeah, like had no, I know I had no, it was just like one of those things. And one day I was like, Mom and dad, I want to do psychology. And they were like, perfect. Um, and I think I was probably quite influenced by my parents because they're both nurses, knew I wanted to help people, but I do have a bit of a theory that anyone who gets into psychology, counseling, social work, there is like this reason sort of behind it, this need sort of to help people and want to work with people. So finished school, went straight through. I did four years of psychology. Um, and at that point, I had probably done, I'm gonna say six or eight years of my own therapy. And I was talking to my therapist one day, and I said, you know, like this clinical masters, I'm I'm not feeling ready for it, this and that. And um, I said, How did you go with your clinical masters? And she said to me, Sophie, I'm a psychotherapist. And I was like, What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 2:16

What's that?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah, what is that? And how have I thought this for so long? Um, and she spoke to me about it, and she highlighted that psychotherapy really has that strong focus on talk therapy. You're not assessing, you're not diagnosing, you're not working um with all of that clinical focused DSM-based stuff. And I think what spoke to me the most was that you're working with people's childhood, unconscious patterns, their attachment, and that really, really spoke to me. So went through, did my masters in psychotherapy and counseling, the huge placement. And of course, my favorite topics were trauma and grief. So found my feet really easily after that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

And what kind of clients do you work with now?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, so I do work with quite a range. Um, and even clients who come to me just from they find me however, often they also have a background of trauma, addiction. I do work with a lot of grief as well, and ADHD, which sort of ties in there. But yeah, that's the main.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Addiction. That was our biggest topic to kind of hit. And then we're gonna go into some more trauma-based stuff. Just to throw some stats out there, I did a bit of research and 2020 estimates that I could find were at least in Australia, there are 6,000 deaths annually from alcohol abuse. 283,000 people are addicted to opioids, 237,000 use illicit amphetamines, and 113,000 are regular cocaine users. Quite big numbers, hard to kind of comprehend. What are you seeing in the space of addictions?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I think it's important to note that that's reported.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

So people often can't comprehend or they don't have enough insight to actually acknowledge this is an addiction. This is something I can't put down, this is something that's ruining my life and my relationships and my finances. In clinic, um, when I'm in the alcohol and drug clinic, it is alcohol 100%. Um, but it's not it affects so many different people. There's not a particular age that I can point out, there's not a gender I can point out, there's not people in certain careers that I can point out. It affects all different people. And I always say that addiction does not discriminate.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Yeah, I think one of the common misconceptions that I hear is that addiction is a choice, or you just need more willpower to stop. You could stick to a routine or if you're more disciplined, or people attack personality traits, position it as a moral flaw.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Absolutely. And I always say in clinic that I'm yet to meet someone who has fallen into addiction because they just like the taste or they just like the feeling. It's so much deeper. It is a coping mechanism that actually becomes survival for a lot of people. And I try to work with that stigma a little bit by saying, you know, sometimes if it wasn't for that addiction, I'm not sure that you would have survived or that you would have kept going. And I know that sounds really backwards, and it sort of sounds like it's almost positive and it's not, but addiction for a lot of people is their only reason to continue.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

What are the main drivers of addiction that you think are trauma, grief, shame, and sometimes just being misunderstood.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Um you know, it becomes something that people use because they feel normal or they feel accepted or they have confidence to do things they didn't have before. And addiction often isn't this um picture of people who can't, you know, function day to day. Often people who are in addiction have these incredible careers and they have families and they're doing things, but to maintain that, they're using these substances, whether it be cocaine, alcohol, pornography, impulsive spending, um, overworking, all these different things. Yeah. But that's going on in the background. And I think an issue is that we sort of paint this picture of you're doing so well, you're you're hustling so hard, and you know, you've got the family, you've got the lifestyle. Keep going and don't tell anyone if you're struggling.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

No one wants to see that.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

So true, yeah. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of addictions are heroin users or ice addicts, and it's just this label that you attach to it. But then we've all watched Wolf of Wall Street, which is full of addictions. Yeah. And it's almost kind of romanticized.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Absolutely, absolutely. And I actually I worry about how we romanticize drugs or alcohol to cope. And for a lot of people, that it's almost, let's say, for cocaine, people think, oh, I'm doing so well. I deserve to use this cocaine on the weekend. And it's almost like a this is my relax time. It's the same with a lot of people who work in a trade culture. Yada day, go to the pub. A long week, go to the pub. And it's ingrained in Australia culture so deeply that we're almost not seeing it. We're turning a blind eye to it.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

Yeah. I've already had probably three or four conversations with friends where they're like, oh, you know, I've finished my trade, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and I just want to stop going to the pub. I just want to stop drinking, I just want to stop doing this. Like, why am I working to just go and spend all my money on the weekends and making it socially acceptable makes it so much harder to realise when you have a problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Absolutely. And I think as well, that all sort of goes hand in hand because okay, going to the pub, having some drinks, maybe using drugs, the pokey, like it's sort of a walk. It is, and it's it's dangerous because you can't almost pin one point there. Then becomes all these triggers as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

I've always had the opinion that a lot of substance use starts with alcohol. You know, I it's very rarely do you hear someone just going and having cocaine and never drinking with it. Or you know, it's it's going out and drinking and then the impulsive decisions come through. In addiction, are you seeing it? It's compulsive everyday use.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Oh, definitely not everyday. Definitely not every day. But I think the part there that stood out for me was that well, you know, there is one aspect there that's really normalized, and that's alcohol. And then that has that flow and effect to other things. Um, but I have a lot of people who come in and their psychiatrist actually will put them under substance use disorder binge. So it doesn't have to be like an everyday use to be an addiction, but it becomes like that weekend use where they're going too far, and there's no boundaries around it.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

People are curious and a lot of people experiment. What's the difference between someone just experimenting and being curious and then perhaps stopping the behavior? How do you separate the two?

SPEAKER_01 9:44

If you are looking to numb, escape, or self-soothe, that's when there is a bit of an issue there. If it is becoming the the purpose of it is to escape your reality, soothe any emotions or dysregulation and numb out from your reality, that's an issue. Um, and I'm also not condoning any other use of it either. But it's, you know, there's that difference there between, I guess, fun, which very easily can flip into that, but it becomes this like lifeline of relief for people. And then also the element of not being able to stop, not being able to cut out the behavior, even though you know there's negative side effects and consequences.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

When we're talking addiction and we're thinking of stages of change, we're not moving in a linear line. So it's not just step by step by step, we're talking relapse after relapse after relapse until we get long-term abstinence, I think the word is. How do you work with clients through a relapse? And more importantly, just probably start us off. How do you work through the pre-contemplation to contemplation phase?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

You know, I think as a therapist, it's never my job to give advice. It's never my job to tell. I can guide really gently. But I think even in that pre-contemplative stage, people are still aware. I think there's like a certain feeling of maybe shame or guilt or blame that comes up where people start to feel, hang on, this isn't right. Um, and often in pre-contemplation, I'm not even seeing clients yet. Or maybe they're coming because their partner said they have to come, or their parent has told them, or a good friend said it's time to go check in with someone. So I think in that stage, it's really, really gentle work. It's curiosity, it's me building trust with them, trying to leave any shame out of the room. If I push at that point, I'm just people aren't coming back. Yeah. They don't want to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Yeah, it's sensitive.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Um, and I think the importance is, you know, yes, each step is important, non-linear, but at that relapse point, I almost try to paint it as it's actually another step in the recovery. It's not something, it doesn't mean failure. It doesn't mean that you can't do it. It's actually teaching us what do we need to know for next time? What is this showing us? Is there some work there that maybe we need to talk about about childhood or trauma that keeps popping up for you? And I was speaking with a psychiatrist the other day, and he said to me that the for him, the average amount of detoxes people do before um being able to maintain recovery is 13.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

13. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

So it's not, it's not, you know, a detox and then you're good. It's not um 10 sessions of therapy, then you're good.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

It it's a it's a it's a poor.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

It's a wrong process, yeah. One of the the things that I learned very early on in my research on ADHD was being more susceptible to addictions for people with ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah, and it's you know, when I'm in clinic, I have I run group sessions and there's certain groups that I have to run. I actually add in a group on um trauma and I add in ADHD because I think about 70 or 80% of the people sitting there, not always, but often, either have been diagnosed or in the process of getting a diagnosis. And I think it's really important to touch on because it helps people make sense of it. Um, think of ADHD. People struggle to self-soothe, they struggle with that busy brain, things always jumping around and not feeling often like they can do things that other people are doing. Addiction sort of jumps in there and goes, hey, I can I can stop that busy brain. I can soothe you, I can make you feel normal. So there's that really, really strong correlation there. I think the actual percentage reported is 30.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

But I don't think that's not representing of what I'm seeing in my practice anyway.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

You said about 80%. What would the what would the other 20% be there for?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Um, often a really strong trauma background. Usually also, unfortunately, maybe growing up where mental health isn't a thing, or toughen up or get on with it, or you know, you have reason to be upset about anything, or you had a good childhood, or yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

One of the other things that I really wanted to talk to you about is this explosion in gambling, online gaming, social media use, talk about addictions in terms of substance use, and it's very easy to uh there's a lot of we know a lot about that um in in comparison to social media use or video game use.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

It can be really hard to identify it because everyone's got a phone. Everyone's using it. The dopamine pathway is still being triggered, you know, our likes, our shares, whatever it is, the scrolling. And a big issue, I think, is that that content is personalized for you. Yeah. So of course it has that addictive um uh part to it, but I also worry about what that leads to as well. You know, it's it is a behavioral addiction. Um, but it's really hard to have that conversation because often these kids are underage um and everyone's got a phone. Everyone's got a phone.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

It goes everywhere with you too. Yeah. A scary, a scary number if anyone wants to look at it is I I don't know if about Androids, but at least on Apple phones, you can see how many times you've just checked your phone. That's a scary number. That is yeah. Well, I didn't know that. Yeah, I I would I would suggest people look at it because it it it it scared me. I was going, oh, I I I'm quite conscious of how many hours I use my phone per day, and I use it for work as well, which I think a lot of people say is as an excuse, but I try to stay under the two hours a day. I've definitely hit days, especially when I'm sick, of like eight or nine standard days, I would try to keep it under two hours, and it was hard to get there, and it's so accessible, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Sure, like drugs and alcohol, that's still quite accessible. Alcohol more so, but when it comes to our phones or gambling or pornography, it's right there. You you don't need to do anything except uh put in your little password.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Um, so that I think is quite scary too.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I was reading up on Tim Fletcher. Do you know any of his work? Some of the things he talks about doesn't land for me, but he has a good point on fake intimacy. Okay. He starts off by talking about this biological need for connection and how a child just has that need, it's not a want, they need connection. Absolutely. And maybe dad's always at work or mum's emotionally unavailable. The point is that the connection is not there and the kid's trying. And the kid will inherit the responsibility for that. Or am I not lovable? Do I need to do something different? And do I need to change? It's a very basic example, but fast forward down the line, and that need for connection is still there, but now intimacy feels scary or it feels like rejection, and people are chasing this fake intimacy which he calls, and so you're seeing you know, compulsive pornography use because it's giving that feeling of connection without the the risk of being rejected, but it's not true intimacy, yeah. Yeah, I think it's a really good point because you know, young people statistics are showing that we're dating less, but we're having more short-term one-night stands where pornography use is through the roof. We're having all these short-term connection fixes, but how many people can have a deep intimate chat with someone? It's so hard.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I believe we all need connection, and I think we we crave it on a really deep level. And I think that word crave is even a bit loud, but I think that's what we want. And we find other ways to get it, and whether that be through pornography or our phones or whatever we're consuming, um, but it becomes our norm. So then we start thinking, okay, this is the norm and this is how life goes. And the conversations we have, it validates that as well because that's what everyone's doing. So that's okay, but we're still missing that major need there. And we we sort of lose sight of any vulnerability. And when we're not being vulnerable and we're not sharing that, shame tends to pop up. And shame is quiet, shame is don't tell anyone that you don't don't don't let anyone know you're feeling like that. So that becomes really difficult to work with.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Yeah. For anyone that's listening that you know might resonate with the impulsive use of pornography or social media, is there something you would say to them that would get them thinking about their use? You can take it out.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

So many things I can say. Whenever that use is finished, how fulfilled do you really feel? Because a lot of it is instant gratification, it's like instant dopamine rush. But a lot of people with these addictions report that directly after there is a really empty feeling that exists. And shame lingers there too.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Shame is a a point we spoke quite a bit about when we were preparing for this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, I'll I'll start sort of to say at first, you know, when I was doing my student placement quite some time ago, and even I struggle to wrap my head around it because the whole nature of shame is to be really quiet for it to not be seen. And I think a really nice way to define it is guilt is I did something wrong. I did something bad. Shame is I am bad. And I think in the society we live in, nobody nobody's talking about that. Nobody wants to say that out loud. We're all big on um being confident and you know, acting a certain way. Shame is such a precursor for addiction, and it often comes from trauma and it manifests often from a really, really young age, so it feels familiar in a really toxic way.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Is it would you say that's one of the main factors that stop people from progressing with understanding their their use and behaviors?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Absolutely. And I'll have people come in and I'll work with them for say 12 months, and maybe we're working with this uh drug or alcohol addiction, and then you just get this slight moment of vulnerability, and oh, and I've also been using pornography every day. And my wife has just found it, or my husband just found out about this, and um, I haven't told anyone that before. And it it takes such a long time to get to that because there is so much shame involved, and not a lot of people come to me and say, Yeah, I just this thing, I know it's there and I want to address it. It becomes something that someone found or they lost control over or they've made a big mistake with, and then it's like panic. And it it is really, really sad, but it's still it's still a way to start therapy and to start opening up that vulnerability around it.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Um What are some of the ways people justify it? Something I I hear a lot is someone will be lead with a little bit of vulnerability and then they'll they'll justify as to I don't know what a good example would be, but uh So and something happened to me when I was little and oh but is fine, I can't change it now. And then oh it's fine, but like this gives me a short-term fix and that makes me feel better.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think people also say, I've come so far now, and I've been fine. Like why now? What's the difference now? Um another thing I hear a lot, which is really interesting, it's actually almost like something that like clicks in my brain when people say it is I had a perfect childhood, I have no issues there. I'm like, oh, I think you just told me something while you were trying to tell me something else. So there's little things like that. Um people will also tell me, like, um, but I've dealt with that. Or I know I know that's an issue and I'm working on it.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah, I think it's it's quite hard for anyone to have a perfect childhood. I don't think there's such a thing as a perfect childhood. Yeah. Like half the way that we learn things is by making mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

So when we talk about stress and trauma, I I think of some misconceptions of my own, and I used to think that stress and trauma were kind of on the same spectrum, maybe, and that stress was just like a lower form of trauma, like you might be stressed at work or something, but trauma would be, I don't know, maybe only war veterans or people that are experiencing like these real high-end experiences of humanity or life. But I think trauma now is so much more than that. For someone that doesn't know um a lot about this topic, how do you differentiate between stress and trauma?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah, so both are a response to something, but often stress is a response to something we don't understand or we don't know yet, or we're not sure how to deal with it. Trauma is a response to something that has happened to us and we had no control, it violated our boundaries, um, and it sort of changed our view or perspective of life. Which it it can that can be anything as well. So it's, you know, it's not this um the normal, not the normal, sorry, the often, yeah, exactly what you said when we think of trauma, we think of these huge events. It really doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Doesn't have to be life threatening, doesn't have to be violent. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

And I think sort of to come back to shame quickly, you have people who maybe their attachment with their their mother as a child was really, really uh poor. And they don't remember that. And they're coming to me and there's so many different things going on, and they're saying, Well, I have no reason to be like this, nothing, nothing has happened to me. I've I've lived a happy, great life, but I've got all these addiction issues or all these this depression, anxiety, and trauma responses coming up. It can be as simple as you came into the world and you didn't feel accepted. There wasn't enough time for you. Mum and dad worked so much to provide for you, but you had that attachment missed, or the endorphins that children, babies need to feel loved and cared for wasn't being met. And it doesn't want to change the brain chemistry.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Are there different types of trauma?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

The little research I did, I found shock, relational, and other were the three categories I could find.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

I see my brain goes straight away either into diagnoses or it goes into the trauma responses. But I don't think it's always that clear-cut, and I think it's why my brain goes into the diagnoses because it sort of breaks down different parts around PTSD, CPTSD, BPD, DID. I've just rattled off a bunch of acronyms that no one probably understands. Sorry. Um so post-traumatic stress, so PTSD or just trauma, so that is one event. One event has affected you. Complex is multiple events that have sort of um either affected one another or they're completely separate. But I find even that really difficult within itself because the way trauma affects the brain, if you experience, say, childhood trauma, your prefrontal cortex, it is not able to continue growing and developing properly.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

It actually stunts its growth.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

It stunts its growth. Um growth. I'm a growth. It stunts its growth. And because of that, you know, that's your decision making. That is your rationalizing.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

So if that's regulation.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

If that's stunted, that leaves you extremely vulnerable to experience more trauma. And that's and that's not saying it's on the person by any means, but it makes us really, really vulnerable to events and not being able to cope with them.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

That's such a good point. It's a there's a there's a biological element to trauma. It's not just someone's interpretation of an event.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Yeah, and I have people say, you know, it's my fault. I don't know why I went back, I don't know why I stayed, I don't know why I did this, this, and this. And I have to remind them like this is something that happens in your brain and everyone else's brain. That was not a decision you made, it wasn't your lack of um logical decision making or your intellectual ability. That was something that happened in your brain and you had no control over that.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah, that leads me to the trauma responses. The I think most people would know fight, flight, and freeze. Yeah. But there is another one.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

There is fawning.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

What is fawning?

SPEAKER_01 27:37

What is fawning? Um, yeah, so I'll just quickly touch on the you know, fight, flat, freeze. Most of us know them, but it sort of became this understanding that not everybody does that. But then we were still having people who have this trauma background and this traumatic symptoms, but then not acting in that way. So fawning is often coming across really agreeable, people pleasing, um staying in situations and sort of monitoring the situation struggles with boundaries and struggles with sense of self as well. Um, because at some point in their life they figured out that being agreeable and people pleasing and no boundaries was safest for them. Opposed to fights are going towards, um, freeze, which is just that complete body shock, and flight, which is getting out of there.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Wow, yeah. I think I I don't I can't speak to who's listening to this and and and resonating, but I think that people pleasing and being agreeable and lack of boundaries is is so common now.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

And it's praise.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Like we praise it, like, oh, you're so easy to get along with and you're so easy to work with.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

And um I was never any issues with you or yeah, yeah it's so true, yeah. I I I've always struggled with people pleasing. It's been something that the I s I constantly find myself going, oh, why am I doing this again? Why am I doing this again? And you fall back into it so easily because it is so adaptive in so many moments.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

And it becomes exactly right. It's adaptive and pe again, people praise it, and it's it's sort of it it we can make it work for so long. Um, and you have to be really conscious about not letting it come back up or slip back through. It's a really conscious effort to make sure you don't.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

And you don't want to be confrontational, right? Like that's that is hard for a lot of people to if uh if asserting a boundary or or just being assertive in general is going to cause conflict or confrontation, it's so much easier to just go, oh yeah, I'll disagree with whatever it is. Even if I don't follow up with it, I'll disagree with it and it gets me out of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

It's easy short term.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Not long term.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Not long term.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

What are some of the the damaging effects someone can experience from operating within one of the four responses?

SPEAKER_01 30:14

That's a great question. I guess if I'm gonna go in with fawning, you know, and there's that agreeableness, and people are fawning through their life day to day, they're actually not asserting any boundaries that they need for their own safety. They're not even close to addressing their wants. Um, yeah, there's that huge element of safety. People often down the track find themselves really unhappy and experiencing symptoms of depression or anxiety because it's like my life almost hasn't been mine. I've gone this far and I don't I don't know what I want, I don't know what I like, I don't know how to say no, which is really dangerous. Um and again, that sense of self which we all need and needs to be developed is completely lost.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Yeah, the identity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

It's just a mirror of anyone around us.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

Yeah. How do you actually best support a client that has, you know, maybe just gone through life for 20 or 30 years and now they're realizing as to how they've been operating and they're going, oh, I now I'm having an identity crisis as well because I don't know who I am.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

That's the beauty of psychotherapy, is that you've got this collaborative moment between a client and a therapist, and I am I explore that with them and I actually offer them challenge me, you know, bring that to me and assert a boundary with me. Um it's it's that practicing of it and actually modeling what that should feel like in the real world, um, and allowing them to have a little bit of power back and empowering them. And actually also, like for me, some I think therapists would disagree, but praising that if you set a boundary or if you you know make a really hard decision or you say no, that's awesome. We're remodeling that, we're trying to rewire that so that there is a bit of comfort when you have to go and do that, but there's also confidence on your ability to do that. Um lots of gentleness, lots of curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Yeah. I think it's important to note that to one of the flight examples of disassociation, it's so adaptive in the moment. And for a lot of people, it's like if you didn't go into that copy mode then, you didn't have the tools to understand the situation, you wouldn't have gotten through it.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

It's your brain helping you. And I never ever try to take someone out of dissociation. Um, all I can do is make sure they're safe, but you've also got to remember it's on a spectrum. So on one end of this spectrum, you've got daydreaming, and you know, the the kid that's maybe not paying attention or uh sort of thinking about the future anytime you're uncomfortable, sort of mentally getting out of that space. And on the other end, you've got dissociative identity disorder where people are switching their personality to keep them safe, and there's a full amnesia in place. Um, within dissociation, we've also got depersonalization, so not feeling like you're in your own body, you're not within your own self, and then derealization, so nothing around you is real. Um, and it's such a scary experience if you're at this end of the spectrum, but you might not also realize you're even doing it. Yeah, wow. And I and I'm never, you know, I really try to act that that part is protecting you, that part that's coming up and that's serving and that's actually helping you stay safe. So we almost sort of honor that part.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Yeah, yeah, from at least from an evolutionary perspective, it's it's survival.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

One of the questions I wanted to ask you was how do you integrate psychoeducation into sessions? I'm just thinking like it's important that someone is aware that they're doing it, they're taking responsibility of their actions, but also externalizing it to go, hey, this is actually something that is to an extent out of your control.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

This is interesting. So it really, really depends on my rapport with client, the client's um awareness and also emotional intelligence. Because if I'm working with a client who's deeply traumatized, that's that jargon is not gonna sit well. Yeah, it just disconnects us. Um, and you know, if you think trauma, you're thinking there's a lack of cognition there. That's what happens. So I probably first have to actually assess that the client is able to take on that sort of information. And sometimes it lands beautifully, and I always try to sort of follow my gut a little bit there that if I think the time is right and the conversation's right and I can slide it in, I will. Um, but if they're not ready for that yet, I always try to leave it out. I think that's the beauty of group therapy, is I run different groups and outpatient groups around PTSD and they're focused on the psychoeducation. So that's a really nice space. And if I have a client who I think would really be well suited, I will also refer them on to one of those groups so that they can have that information, but in a setting that isn't feeling like a classroom when it's going to be a therapy session.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Yeah. Where do you run the group program?

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Through the hospital. So they do inpatient and outpatient. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Do you see benefits between, say, individual therapy and group therapy? Absolutely. Yeah. Is one better or worse? No. It depends.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

It depends. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Hard question. Yeah. I think everybody needs not everybody, well, everybody, but I think most people need individual therapy. And then group therapy is this really nice space where you can connect with people who may be going through similar things or having a similar diagnosis. Um, there's validation there, and then there's education there as well. But I think that one-on-one therapy is where people make progress and come out of those trauma states and you know, sort of are able to find that sense of self again.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Yeah. This episode is proudly brought to you by G Recovery, the Central Coast's leading destination for health, wellness, and performance recovery. With two clinics right here on the Central Coast, you can jump into one of their tailored recovery sessions. From infrared saunas and compression therapy to ice bars and soft tissue treatments, they've got all the science-back tools to help you feel and perform at your very best. Head to grecovery.com.au to book your next session or learn more. That's grecovery.com.au. Yeah, so we've spoken about addiction and then we've spoken about trauma. But I want to link the two because you did mention at the start one of the main drivers of addiction was trauma. How do you how do you see that relationship play out in therapy?

SPEAKER_01 37:09

It's so interesting because I think my training is to always look a little bit deeper, never at what's sort of coming up on the surface. Yes, validate that. Um, but it often comes up, I think actually quite naturally, where whether it be in a group setting or whether it be one-on-one, people will be talking about this issue and this issue, and really gently I'll say, tell me a little bit about this, or tell me a little bit about your relationship, or um maybe your relationship with your mum. And then very quickly it often underpins that this happened, this happened, this happened. And I think it's important to remember as well that trauma isn't just about what happens to you, it's about how the people who love and are meant to protect you respond. So if people aren't validating it, if people don't believe you um, or if people just brush it off, there's a huge issue there because people don't feel protected. Naturally, with that, people often do feel protected or a sense of protection or safety with a substance. And it's this escape. Yeah. Um so sometimes I'm not even no, not sometimes. Majority of the time, I'm not quick to come down and say, I think we need to cut out this, this, and this. I actually sort of just like let it sit there. Yeah. There is also that element as well that, you know, especially around alcohol, it's not safe for people to detox at home. Yeah. You need medical support and the use of prescription medication because there's such a high risk of seizure and issues like that. So it sort of becomes this model of collaborative care, which I love, and I think Australian psychology needs. Yeah. Um, because we sort of like tend to separate ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there that that is a good point. There is a lot of like disconnect between services in Australia. It's like we're all arguing to see who's better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

And it it's not that, you know, like I love working in my private practice. I work alongside psychologists, I work alongside social workers, counselors, um, with all different backgrounds. And I think we really need each other.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Um, and I I love having people who I can refer to and trust. And even with psychiatrists, knowing the psychiatrists who also use a collaborative model. Um, and if you think about human nature, we need a whole yes, yes, we need a whole support network. We don't just need one person. Yeah, um, and there's also a risk there too, of you know unhealthy attachment if you do just have one person who is that one lifeline for you. So yeah, I love that collaborative model, and I think it's important to consider it.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Do you see the same relationship, uh at least in addiction with substances, that it is an attachment to that escape?

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

And it's like, are you dealing with that as an attachment issue or are you dealing it with like a co as a coping mechanism?

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Oh, that's a fantastic question. Can I say both? Yeah. I think it depends on the person. For some, they're able to, and I think it also depends on their attachment style and their upbringing and their um their belief system around other humans. So if that's the case, then it's just a coping mechanism. But if we're talking about someone who's been really poorly treated by other humans and there's no trust for human connection, that substance is the attachment. There is attachment there to it.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

And when we're talking about trauma, one of the things that comes to mind is it's an experience that challenges a belief that you have. So, like I am safe in this world. What's the relationship between a traumatic event happening and core beliefs?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

So, this is one time I will lean on CBT, cooking behavioral therapy. Um, but if you think about a self-esteem model, right, they use this model where it starts with an early life experience that then builds, you know, our assumptions and beliefs around the world. From there, let's say the belief that I have is I am not worthy. I will then create these rules and assumptions around it to keep that belief going. So the belief might be I am only worthy when I have no boundaries, or I am only worthy when I'm using XYZ.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Um, so then we create this whole system on that, and that then leads us into low self-esteem. But it sort of acts like a cycle that goes round and round and round. And actually working with that core belief and coming back to it can be really difficult because people people um build those core beliefs at really young ages.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Yeah, yeah, so true. That I think back to that example I used before of a a kid that's seeking connection with their parents and then they feel as though they're responsible for not getting that met. And so, you know, there there's a problem with me or you know, I'm too much, or I need to be different. That does stay with someone through life. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

And I think when people um come to me and they say, you know, how many sessions do I need? I I understand it's not always possible, but I sit really heavy in the therapy and working on yourself is such a lifelong experience because if you do find yourself maybe in a um unhealthy relationship or something along those lines that brings that core belief back, the whole the whole thing can slip. Even if you've done all this work to build around it, it can just take one little trigger and you fall back into to remember that core belief that was so well ingrained.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

And then you're operating in that coping mechanism again.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Wow, yeah, there you go. What's the difference between say, like you take a child that's gone through a traumatic experience and someone that's gone through a traumatic experience as an adult? Maybe they've got a really set of solid core beliefs that are that are like reasonable, but now they have this one-off event that happens.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Well, if you think about a child and it does depend on age, their sense of safety relies completely on other people. So once that's disrupted, it creates all these issues around the core beliefs. Let's say an adult, as you shared that example, they've already got their own set of beliefs around the world, beliefs around themselves, um, their own understanding of attachment, their own safety. So there is a I'm not gonna say better, but the circumstances of finding that event traumatic is very, very different. And it depends on personality, yeah. So many different things. Um but sometimes that one event can cause trauma and bring people back to childhood. Yeah. And it triggers something there as well. Yeah. So it just sort of depends on a person's life, their experiences, personality. Um I hate the word resilience, but also their their actual resilience to responding to things in the day-to-day.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good point as well. Is there a way that someone can um what's it's gonna sound like a stupid question, but like almost bulletproof themselves from traumatic events? Say you're in the the defense force or something and you know you're going to go on a tour, you're expecting it, you're prepping for it, you're understanding the environment that you're gonna go into. When we're talking about what's the best way to raise a kid, should they have hard experiences early and learn to understand those experiences as they go, or should we be protecting kids from having hard experiences?

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Wow, what a good question. I'm almost scared to answer.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

It's a very broad statement. I don't think there's one answer to it. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

And this is probably like my background and understanding is that maybe it's not so much to do with the experience or event, it's more to do with the support. So if I go into a traumatic situation that I'm planning for, but I know I've got a great support system, I've got great family and friends who I can speak to. I've got a fantastic therapist. My self-care and my routine and my um coping skills are all under wrap, that is gonna support me a lot more. Yeah. But if you've got someone who maybe doesn't have great self-awareness, their coping skills aren't fantastic, um, they don't feel like they have speak like people they can truly lean on and feel healed by, that becomes the issue there. I think it's probably less to do with the event, but more to do with the support.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

It's a good point. At least a lot of men try to justify it as like, oh, I can handle this on my own, or this is something I can do by myself, I can get through this on my own. It's it's not about your ability to understand the situation, it's about your ability to seek support. So if you're a kid and you're having a hard time at school, you know, you might have that one teacher that you feel so comfortable with, and you can go to that person, or you can go to mum and dad, or you can go to a friend or someone, and it's when you don't have that that it's so damaging.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Absolutely. And I think to touch on men, there is a really sort of dangerous narrative that floats there that be strong, be the provider, don't let anyone see you slip. Everyone needs you, everyone needs to lean on you, be the rook of the family. That's really dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Yeah, yeah, the whole vulnerability side of things.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Yeah, and that's where shame goes as well.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

There we go, you're back there. I do agree though, it is it's a good point. Hyper masculine side of things of never have an issue, never have it is people pleasing in a sense. It's like oh, I'm only valuable to my partner, I'm only valuable to my family if I provide this and if I have this, and if I don't have emotions around this, and I'm always just gonna have this logical perspective. Yeah. Um, but it's it's negates the fact that you're human.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

And it absolutely and it ignores any emotion. So again, if if you need an escape from this logic world, or if you need, you know, if you need to sit in your emotions or you're feeling these huge emotions coming up, that's where people start reaching for addiction. Yeah. To cope. I need to tune out, I need a break, I need time to myself, I need I need to take my mind off it, I need to numb out, this is all too much.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

Yeah. Even that example I used earlier of I'm gonna just chase the feeling of connection and no vulnerability with it.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

I can have a million short-term relationships, they're gonna end in six months because I just can't grow to that next level. Absolutely. Um, yeah, that I think that that is a massive problem with with young men. Definitely, yeah. I I see it in in in certain friend groups in so many environments, people are are just seeking the feeling of connection with no vulnerability to it. But you can't have a a a good, healthy relationship like that. I think it's that's an important point to make is a proper healthy relationship with someone else is understanding them fully and accepting that. And that means understanding that you have flaws too. Um, and you can't actually grow to a level of of deep intimacy if you're just searching for that surface connection.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah, exactly. And it is uncomfortable. Like vulnerability isn't um it's not easy and it's it's not comfortable for people, but it's so necessary. And I think yeah, I think that's why people struggle with therapy as well, because you had to go in there with all of your walls down, yeah. Like it's so it's so uncomfortable at times. But when you do feel accepted and that people aren't running away from that vulnerability, that's where people start to feel really safe and content and it's healthy.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's healthy, is is a good point. It's just because it's hard doesn't mean it's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Yeah, yeah. What are some areas of interest of yours at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 49:25

In terms of work. Yeah. I'm really enjoying which sounds so strange. Uh, grief at the moment, discussing grief and complex grief. Um, and I do a lot of work with my supervisor, we have to have supervision, um, you know, around younger attachment theory and also working with people who struggle with emotional intelligence. And I don't say that like as an insult, I think it's been an insult in the past, but people who struggle to be in touch with emotions as it hasn't probably been safe or modelled for them growing up. Yeah, and I'd love to do some work with individuals who have been adopted or have gone through that system. Yeah, but I'm still finding my feet in that. That's tricky.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Well, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Thank you so much for having me. Enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 50:22

Yeah, cheers. Uh thank you.

unknown 50:24

Thank you.