#01 - Ari Paparestis - Do Our Juvenile Detention Centres Actually Help Our Youth?

We sit down with Ari Paparestis – a psychologist with real experience working on both sides of our juvenile justice centres. Expect to learn what life is like as a guard but also what life is like for some of the youth who are being detained - we dive into Ari’s humorous journey into psychology, explore the raw lessons learned inside juvenile detention, and unpack the mental game behind boxing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This episode is proudly brought to you by GRecovery, the Central Coast leading destination for health, wellness, and performance recovery. With two clinics right here on the Central Coast, you can jump into one of their tailored recovery sessions from infrared saunas and compression therapy to ice bars and soft tissue treatments. They've got all the science-backed tools to help you feel and perform at your very best. Head to gerecovery.com.au to book your next session or learn more. That's gerecovery.com.au being you're all right. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah, thank you for having me on, mate.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

So give us a bit of background on who you are and how you got into the field of psychology.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Cool. So uh my my entry into psychology was very different to most, I think. I started off with finishing year 12, um, and I got into a bachelor of economics to start with. I did that for about a year, didn't really like it, uh, transferred over to business and commerce. Um, and I think at that age it just sounded cool, really. It sounded like a good area to go down, didn't really know what I needed to do and finished that and then um stumbled into psychology um through a mate, actually. He was he was studying psychology and he we were just chatting, actually, being young, adolescent males. Um he said that you know his psychology subjects were full of women and my business subjects weren't, and I said I'll do an elective with you. And he ended up leaving psychology and studying something else, and I kids I signed up for the whole thing, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Don't know if it's as um yeah, as admirable as a lot of other stories, but and so what's your experience in the field where you what are you kind of working in now?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

My main area of focus is kids. So I've I work I've worked with children and adolescents my whole career essentially. I've done a little bit of work with adults, but the majority has been with kids. Um started off working with juvenile justice, so uh did a range of things with them, was there for about nine years in total, and that was a real eye-opener. That was that was also part of the transition between going from a business degree to psychology, where I was sort of enrolled in a business degree, doing some shifts as a guard, um, just as a casual job, and then working in that field started to change my perspective on things and delved into psychology through there. So yeah, stayed there for that. That was a big part of my career, and then moved over to the school system, worked there for uh probably about four years, I'd say, all up. And while were you doing that? Uh did a range of things. I was a school psychologist throughout, but worked at a whole heap of different schools, and uh a big role was working with um people from refugee backgrounds, so nearly arrived, uh huge trauma histories, you know, uh really significant stuff, like you know, stuff people from uh the Middle East, um a lot of African countries, uh anywhere where there's there's war at the moment, really. And we'd go to schools and we'd try and um help the staff out, help the teachers, professional development or um workshops around working with trauma, and then um trying to support kids who've experienced trauma. Uh, and then moved up to the coast and got into um got into CAMS, which is child and adolescent mental health, and that was really cool. That was part of Gosford Hospital, and that was really, really cool in understanding that that more clinical side of things and um high-risk mental health as well, you know, kids that are presenting with suicidal behaviors and you know complex mental health needs. And then got back into the schools here for a few years, and now I'm um the majority of my work's with working with kids with autism and ADHD.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

There you go. So a bit of everything.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Bit of everything now, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

And so talk to me about some of your experiences in the Juvie, and yeah, I you're obviously studying psychology at the same time as working as guard there. That would have been getting some crazy insights to be working in it with you know a lot of people that you're learning about at uni um while you're studying it, like yeah, you would have had some crazy revelations.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, yeah, unimaginable stuff. Um yeah, I remember early on there was it was a real real culture shock for me because I sort of grew up in a pretty reasonable family. Like mum and dad were really supportive, looked after me well. So you go into this different demographic where you know they've they've experienced a really serious trauma. I think uh that's probably the the bulk of the kids in in that system, you know, just really traumatised kids, and um it sort of it really changed the way I looked at everything, it changed the way I looked at the world and um it yeah, it it was an adjustment, you know. I remember a kid swearing to me right in front of my face when I was there for a couple of I've only been there for a couple of weeks and uh the heart was pumping and I was furious and scared and upset. Yeah. And at the same time, I um had to keep working as well. So I was trying to, you know, trying to shake that off and seeing kids, you know, actively engaging in you know suicide attempts and you know, cutting ligatures of kids' necks and they're blacked out and you're calling the ambulances and stuff like that. So I guess you it's such a stressful environment. You sort of don't think about it until you move away and you yeah, you sort of look back and you go, wow, it was pretty, pretty heavy.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah. Yeah. What were some of the the prominent experiences psychological-wise that you had?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

It really changed my understanding around trauma. You know, I I went from looking at a lot of those issues that those kids had from a behavioural setting. Uh I went away from that into more, you know, what what happened to this poor kid and they're functioning in this way? I had one example, I think, it was probably the most extreme one, and it was um it was about a week before my honest thesis was due, actually. And I was pretty stressed with that, pre-consumed with that, and we had this shift where had to restrain a young girl and she bit me. She had a she had regurgitated some some of her lunch in a cup, and um essentially threw vomit at me. And again, like looking at that from a from a security perspective, that's you know, like that's a young person being aggressive towards me, but I was looking at it in a different way where she was petrified. So a male coming up, essentially putting her to the ground, handcuffing her, putting her in a room. She did whatever she could at that point. So yeah, through I got covered in vomit and um and then got bitten and had to go and get blood tests and stuff because you know, making sure that everything was alright there. Um and yeah, I had to go have a shower and try and finish off my thesis. So um, yeah, that that's that's that environment, and it's um yeah, I take my heart off to people that they're involved in it because it's it I don't think you realise how extreme it is until you move away from it and you think geez, that's not that's not every day so you're looking retrospectively. Yeah, but when you're in there, it's that's that's pretty standard, so you just keep going, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah, what's the procedure? Like, do you have any psychological assistance there? Like obviously guards are kind of facing this every day. Um, you know, if this was to happen on the street, that'd be a pretty crazy assault. But this is every day for you guys. Do you have assistance or kind of help help there?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

To be honest, when I was there, not a huge amount. And I remember in this um in that specific example that I mentioned, I I remember it just wasn't sitting right with me. I I just didn't have a good feeling about it. Felt really bad for the kid. Um, and raised it with a manager and and they basically viewed it from an operational perspective and they looked at it, you know, in terms of the restraint and what we did. We followed all procedures. So they just said, Yeah, you did everything right, you've got nothing to worry about. And um, I remember then I was sort of sitting there and it just wasn't feeling still wasn't feeling right. And I I that was probably a really big turning point for me into saying, look, there's a lot more to it than just the behaviours, you know, you've really got to look at that. And I think for staff working in there, it might be a protective thing just to look at the behaviours and not think too much about it. Yeah, um, I don't know what supports they get now, but uh at the time, yeah, we didn't get too much. Wasn't much, yeah. It'd be you know, go to the pub and have a couple of beers at the end of the year, six shifts, and yeah, but um having said that, you know, ever it was really good team camaraderie, and and there was a lot of really good people in there. Um, so there's always people to bounce ideas off and have a chat to, but in terms of getting professional help, I I don't think there was anything formal there for it.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Yeah. What's the psychology of the inmates there? What are you seeing mostly? Are you seeing a lot of neurodivergence? Are you seeing drugs? What are you what are you looking at?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I was there. Um, I think I started there in 2008 and I finished up at around 2017. And the understanding around autism was was almost non-existent. I think we had a very, very select few kids that had autism diagnoses. The majority had more of those externalizing behaviours. So your ADHD diagnoses, ODD conduct disorder, um, you know, uh attachment disorders. But in terms of autism, you know, again, looking back, um, there would be a lot of kids that would fit that bill. They just weren't picked up. Yeah, again, when you think of an autism diagnosis, there's a lot to it. You gotta get, you know, go through all the pathways and get the assessments done. And a lot of these kids didn't have those sort of support networks in place. Yeah. You know, you're talking kids that are bouncing in and out of different uh foster homes and placements and short-term type accommodation and you know, really complex family dynamics. So, you know, by the time they're 15 or 16, they're maybe not getting assessed and not getting the support that they need, and you know, they end up in in these sort of settings. So there was a lot of that. Um a story I had once, I remember this girl in hindsight again. We we were pretty sure she would have a uh well should have had an autism diagnosis, and she she threw uh brick into the window of a police station, and really, you know, again, real rigid type thinking. We were sort of questioning it, you know, we're thinking uh yeah, what's what sort of silly behaviour would that be? You know, like of course you're gonna get in trouble, right? Like you're throwing a brick into the window of a police station. What's the function? Yeah, like you throw it anywhere else except for there. But uh, she looked at it from that perspective. She wanted to go back in. Home life wasn't very good. She enjoyed her first stay in there, so she she got out, she hadn't been out for long, threw a brick into the window and thought, look, I know if I throw a brick into the window of a police station, I was guaranteed to go back to Juvie. So you know, really, really concrete sort of thinking, going, that's what I'm gonna do. Yeah, and also, you know, didn't want to hurt anyone either. So just um thought if I throw it into the window of the police station, I'll get in trouble, cause a bit of damage, hopefully not hurt anyone, and and and that'll be it. So uh yeah, there was a lot of um a lot of funny stories. Again, looking back at it, you you sort of think and you reflect on it and say, Yeah, there's been a lot more than what we were aware of.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

How would you say trauma presents differently in men and women in that regard? Juvenile men and women.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Um it was tricky because I worked the majority of my time there was with the girls, and to put into perspective at the time there was around 300 kids in the state that were locked up. So uh there's probably around seven or eight juvenile justice centres across New South Wales. I don't know the exact number, but there was around 270 boys and three about 30 girls at one time. So the girls that we had there were the you know real pointy end. So they had a lot of the externalising type behaviours, aggression, and you know, ranging from you know petty theft assaults all the way through. There was some there for murder. Um, I guess the biggest issue in in what I saw with the two genders was I think if there was gonna be an issue between inmates, the boys would probably be so much more impulse, or they definitely would be so much more impulsive. You know, if they had an issue with someone that it'd be a physical fight within about 30 minutes, and yeah, you know, it it'll it'll all be over. Um whereas the girls, there was a lot more of that um relational bullying, you know, like isolating girls, um, and it'd be more of a slow burn. And if there was physical conflict, it'd be over a you know a prolonged period. But yeah, um probably the other issue that the difference between the two was you know, girls at that age just had a lot more access to drugs, being in that sort of you know, um teenage period working in the city, you know, prostitution and and just being in that sort of crowd. Um young girls just had a lot more access to drugs and high volumes of drugs and also heavier drugs. Whereas the boys just that was that was something that was far less in what I saw.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Would you say that the boys would gravitate more towards trying to access the drugs than the girls would then? In terms of them getting into trouble or yeah, like if they've already got access to it, what would you think?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yeah, that yeah, they'd be yeah, trying to get the money every time they could. Yeah, yeah, source a bit of income and and and then spend it on drugs, and it would always be you know smaller amounts. You know, I remember doing drug and alcohol assessments, and some girls would be using a thousand dollars a day, and that was you know ten years ago, so God, with the price of inflation and things like that would be a lot more now. So yeah, so uh the boys, you know, they're probably using uh you know twenty bucks or a hundred bucks if they could, and yeah, and that that'd be a that'd be a high level of use for a boy at that point.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah. Yeah. What's the prevalence of ADHD?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

In the girls, not so much. Again, you know, if you think of ADHD, there's by and large, girls are more likely to present without inattentive type ADHD. Um and they're a bit harder to diagnose as well. Boys, I think we would have I I would say it was something around 90% from memory. I I don't know, that's not an exact number, but uh it was almost a given. Like when a boy would come in, you almost wouldn't even look at the diagnosis because you could almost guarantee they had an ADHD diagnosis, and there was a high likelihood that they'd have either ODD or conduct disorder or both. And and then maybe some mood mood disorder as well, but yeah, you almost overlooked the ADHD diagnosis. It was that common.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

For those who are listening might not come from a s psych background, how do you define ODD and conduct disorder and how do you differentiate between the two?

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Okay, so I guess it it's a tricky one because if you think of ODD very broadly, it's you know um difficulties working with authority figures, working with adults, working with people in positions of power and ODD is oppositional defiance sorry, sorry, oppositional defiance. That's right. Um and that was you know, if you think about what it takes to enter a juvenile justice system, a lot of oppositional behaviors, yeah. Um, so that was probably something that you'd see a lot more of. Um, and again, trying to merge that in with trauma and understanding someone's background would be very tricky because if you think about someone who's emotionally distressed, you know, they're more likely to tell someone to get lost or lash out or you know, not comply to instructions or anything like that, which are all those sort of again, very broadly speaking, they're the trademarks of ODD. So um that was that was something that was pretty common with all of the kids. Um, but again, trying to differentiate between a a kid who's got ODD versus someone who's you know had a really hard start to life and been abused and had all sorts of tough things happen to them is is tricky. Um and your conduct disorder is probably if I could really simply put it, it's a step above ODD, a lot more calculated antisocial behaviour. Um in adults it's it's it's defined as antisocial personality disorder, but it's it's I guess people that are more more conscious and more more overt in their their behaviours and and um I guess more likely to more deliberate. More deliberate, yeah. That's probably a better word of put a better way to say it. More deliberate in in what they're doing. Um and I found I think if you would deal with the trauma in those juvenile justice centres, you you wouldn't get too many kids that would fit that bill for conduct disorder. But again, you know, when they walk in, probably I I would say half of them would have a diagnosis. In terms of the boys, half of them would have a conduct disorder diagnosis. Yeah, wow. Yeah, I don't know where where it's at now. Like I said, it's been nearly a decade, but yeah, hopefully things have changed a bit and understanding around trauma's improved.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

So Yeah. You mentioned before the main reasons as to why a lot of the the women were in the juvenile centres. What were the prominent factors for the boys?

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Similar sort of similar sort of demographic. So you if if I could put it simply, most of the boys were either friends or siblings with the girls that were in custody. So similar sort of networks. Um the risk factors that were pretty consistent were adverse childhood experiences. So to explain that, you're talking about you know, physical abuse, um substance use in the home, domestic violence in the home, um, or absent parents, um yeah, parents in um in prison or you know, with criminal problems as well. Um that was consistent for both. So you sort of think if you know if you've got girls in one family that are presenting with that, the the boys are not going to be too far away in terms of those juvenile justice centers. Um and then going up, you know, your other risk factors like not not going to school, um, dropping out of school really early, um, and then financial issues, you know. I I think it was it was almost unheard of to have a kid from a you know a well-to-do type area because that they normally get you know access to more support at an earlier age, and and by the time they get to court, if they ever did, they'd have a lot of supports in place, and the court system is really unlikely to put a child into a juvenile justice centre for no reason. It's more around uh looking at it as a last resort. So you essentially you've got kids from yeah, low socioeconomic backgrounds, yeah, trauma histories, uh complex family issues. Yeah, yeah. What's the prevalence of reoffending? Um, again, I don't know in terms of the uh up-to-date stats, but at the time when I was there, it was over 90%. So it was pretty high. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty high. Um, which is unfortunate. It was a tricky one too, because I think we saw a lot of success with kids that had longer term stays, longer custodial settings, and normally that'll be either they had offended a lot and they ended up with a longer sentence, or they'd done something pretty serious. Yeah. Um, but if you think about it, when you're in a juvenile justice center and you're doing well, you have access to to school, you have access to all your medical help, yeah. Um, whatever medications you need, um, you know, you've got food consistently. And I know that sounds really basic, but a lot of these kids didn't have that. So yeah, especially medical help. It's expensive, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like all your medications there for you every day. You don't have to go to a chemist and try and find the money to buy it and keep on top of it. You know, you get called to the nurse and they they basically give it to you and you you have it at the same time every day. And that consistency of, you know, waking up at the same time, having your your breakfast at the same time, going to bed at the same time, yeah, going to school throughout the day, you know, the longer you do that, the when we look at those risk factors that brought them in there, the the level of risk starts to go down. I think the challenge is then you how do you match that when they get out?

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a lot of conversation around the prison system as a whole. And I think a lot of people use the Danish prison system as a good example as to an alternative option. I think a lot of cr. Critique from that comes from the fact that at least in Australia, the people that are in our prison systems are not the same as people in the Danish prison system, and that there's a lot of other factors contributing to why people are entering these systems as well. If you can't afford your medication or you can't, you're not eating every day, or you're not eating, you know, for some people, days on end. So to be in that system and get regular food and things like that, it's almost better than what the option is outside of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah, and that goes back to that example with the young girl that threw the brick into the police station. You know, you had to look at her her her life outside and thought, no, I'm better off in there. Yeah. Which is really sad, but um, yeah, that's just the way it is for some people.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah, I think it's an important distinguish to make that yeah, the Danish prison system worked well because the community that they were reintroducing to was full of supports and structure, whereas here, when when they're released, they're just going back into the environment but put them in there in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and is that that analogy if it takes a village, you know. Uh I know that that's that's another factor I probably didn't mention, you know, having that that network of support around you, family support or you know, good friends and pro-social influences around you. Yeah, um, that's a big protective factor as well. And you know, I always think if you know, if something happened to me, I've got two kids and I know that there'd be 20 or 30 people that would be able to look after them.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Um, whereas some people don't have that.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Something that you and me are both bonded over a while ago was our shared interest of boxing. Tell me about your experience in the world of boxing and what what are the the kind of benefits that you you see from people choosing to take a sport that is maybe a bit more violent.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, cool. Look, I um I just I I will disclose I'm not a professional boxer or anything like that. I haven't fought for any world titles. Um but I've always loved the sport actually. I remember I actually went to a uh a show in Marrickville, I think it was somewhere in the city anyway, and I was in year five. I remember it was it was in year five, I was in year five, and um at the time it was the um the Kelly brothers, Glenn Kelly and Kevin Kelly, they were the the headline acts. And I was captivated by it. I thought I was thought this was incredible, um really brutal, but at the same time, you know, really captivating as well. And I sort of dabbled in it, you know, went to the PCYC and did some stuff as a teenager and then did some stuff at a um a gym in Sydney as a young adult, and still, you know, always loved it. I think for me growing up, the gyms that I was involved in, like sort of you know, in Western Sydney, there's a lot of rough characters in there, so um, you know, it can make a lot of people feel a bit uncomfortable as well. So I sort of did it for a bit and then would drift in and out and and not really commit to it. Um but yeah, I got the uh saw the red versus blue program with G6 and um had a chat to the the owner one day and I said I'll do it, I'll do it one day, I'll I'll make sure that I do it, and um jumped on a few years ago. Now I was 35, nearly 36 at the time, so I was a little bit older, and I thought it's you know, if I don't do it now, yeah, it it might be a bit too late, so I've got to do it, yeah. Yeah, and um it was it was fantastic in terms of overall personal growth and an understanding of your your body physically and also psychologically as well, you know, being able to manage your emotions and manage that that threat response in your brain and being able to stay I guess the word is regulated when you're being attacked and getting punched in the face, yeah, and trying to manage your anxiety and and and you know that that tug of war in in your body between going into that fight-flight mode and trying to stay calm and regulated. That was really, really cool. And I almost um I guess I worked on myself for 12 weeks as a as a psychologist and a pa and a client as well. So did a bit of work on that. And that was probably the biggest thing I got out of it, like being able to stay calm and composed when under attack, that's probably not a normal thing for for most people.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

I think it's beneficial as well. In in my experience working with younger kids, I used to work with a lot of shy type kids that were maybe getting picked on at school or something. For them, learning to box was a great opportunity to build confidence, especially as a male. I think this is hard for a lot of people to relate to, but if you are getting picked on as a male in school, it's quite often physical. And so you do need to build confidence that you can stand up for yourself in that case if you need to. The misconception with boxing in that regard is you're not teaching people to be violent or teaching people to instigate, you're giving them the tools and the confidence to be able to defend themselves if they need to. Yeah, yeah, it's beneficial for a lot of the kids that are getting picked on, but I think as well for a lot of women, I I used to coach with a few a few teen girls, and for them they were really shy and introverted at at first when they built the confidence to be able to, you know, physically exert themselves and in a sport that is so uncomfortable. Yeah, I saw them build a lot of confidence and character out of that. So I think it's a super important thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Definitely, and I think it's become a lot more mainstream where it's uh accessible to to everybody. Yeah. I think if I go back to my first sparring session when I was, you know, maybe 20 years old, there was some guy that and this is true, he he was covered in, I remember he had a neck tattoo, he was covered in tats, uh, just got out of prison not long ago, yeah. Um, and beat me up, to be fair. Um, but it it's a pretty intimidating environment. It was a pretty intimidating environment. And when I was preparing for this uh Red vs. Blue, it was all walks of life, you know, all ages, um men, women, um, yeah, all sorts of really cool backstories. Um, but yeah, it just opened the door for so many other people. So I think now we're seeing everybody jumping on board, and it's um it's allowing people to to build all those those skills that you mentioned, you know, the confidence and yeah, the ability to not so much defend yourself, but being comfortable enough to to stay composed when when there is threat. And that like you said, doesn't necessarily mean fighting or becoming aggressive, it's just maintaining your composure in all sorts of different situations.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

I agree. I one of the things that you learn in therapy very early on uh would be to understand when I'm getting dysregulated uh for starters, but also how do I regulate myself when I'm feeling dysregulated. And I think for boxing, it's that's something you have to learn or you don't do well at all. You know, if you're completely dysregulated when you're trying to box, you'll you'll you'll just end up getting hurt. Yes. For a lot of people, it's learning that in a very real environment, whereas you know, in in conversational, it's oh, I'm getting dysregulated, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this up or whatever. But in a physical environment, you're you're only gonna get hurt if you're dysregulated. So you have to regulate and be able to understand, like, oh, I need to take a breath, I need to calm down or try and control my behaviour. I think it's transferable a lot of into a lot of different areas of life as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

100%. Yeah, that was a big thing that I I learned. I think it was week one, first sparring session. Got hit with a few shots, and uh natural survival instinct was to put my head down and close my eyes and put my hands in front of my face and hope for the best. Um, you know. Um, but in a boxing sense, you know, that's the worst thing you can do because you're just a sit and target. And I remember one of the trainers was saying, you know, you know, don't close your eyes, don't put your head down. And that's all I could hear. But in in my in my own mind, you know, that that survival part of my brain was saying, Well, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, definitely. If I'm trying to keep you safe in this moment, so that was a a bit of a wake-up call for me where I said, Well, I have to try and spread out my my ability to stay regulated here. Um, yeah, and I did that through, you know, your standard exposure type work. Um, my aim, and after that first week, I I remember I I made a decision that I have to get in and spar as often as possible with everybody, you know, like I couldn't really shy away and I needed to almost accept that I was gonna get beaten up, yeah, uh, week in, week out. And I really made a point to try and spar guys that were bigger and better. Um, and oh week by week I I could see the difference, and I was able to tolerate just that little bit more, and I'd still sort of close my eyes every now and then, but that was reducing, and then uh got to the point where towards the end, you know, you could sit there and get hit and you you still see everything happening and you're still figuring stuff out, and yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, all these little clues that you're thinking, brain's still on.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Yeah, a lot of people don't actually understand uh when you first start the level of adrenaline, the the effect of that fight or flight response is so strong. Yeah. And people go, oh, you know, it's it's a sport for neanderfalls or something like that, and it's there's there is the brain, the brain damage element to it, but some of some boxers that I know are the most composed people I've ever met, and they're they're able to handle themselves in adversity, and I think that's something that that's a skill that not a lot of people actually have.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, and that's exactly how I looked at it as well. I I uh I just uh to paint a picture, the the guy that I fought, um, he was younger, fitter, faster, stronger. Um, you know, if it was purely down to the physical aspect, he would have beaten me pretty easily. Um and I'm you know happy to concede that. And I've always played sport and I'm you know relatively fit, but um I I know my limitations, so I I knew that if I had to compete purely on a physical sense, I wasn't gonna get him. So I knew that my strength was that I in a weird way was a psychologist and had a bit more of an understanding around that side of things, so I had to use that to my advantage. Yeah. Um and on the flip side, I do I remember there was a sports psychologist, um, his name's Bill Bezick, and he has a book, and in in one of the one of the chapters, he says that he starts off all of his intervention with athletes asking him three questions, and it's um what do you want? How badly do you want it? And and how much are you willing to suffer to get there? And I remember the mental side of it was one, but I did maximize myself physically as well. So I got to a point where I was at my best, and I know that that still wasn't going to be enough to beat him if he was at his best, but I I had to work really hard to get there, and I remember I I looking back at actually as I was preparing for this podcast, I was thinking about it and I almost went insane, you know. Like you sort of get to this point where it consumes you, yeah. Um, but I knew that I had to do something else other than just the physical to try and get the win, and and um yeah, I had to try and really build my brain up as much as I possibly could as well. And and I think going back to work, working with young people, then I've been able to use a lot of those um skills that I've learned, helping them as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yeah, I worked for a while with high high-risk kids or high needs kids, especially in the autism uh sector, a lot of kind of violence as well and restrictive practices, things along those lines. And I I found it the thing that made me work so well with that group was the fact that I didn't find it dysregulating to be near someone that was dysregulated. And it's it's a wild thing to say that you can sit next to someone that's you know, maybe smashing their face in or you know, hitting someone else and be able to co-regulate with them and follow a set of procedures to to help bring them down. That was something that I found a lot of people that worked well in that sector had control of their own emotions and they were they were able to sit in that space of being uncomfortable and not let it dictate their behaviour. Yeah. I think that's directly the skill that I learned from boxing. Dr. Julie Smith, she's a I forget what the name of her book is, she's a pretty famous author though, and she talks about in her most recent book, she wrote a section on fear. It was actually on a podcast I listened to her talking, and she says she got to the end of writing the book and she was reviewing it before releasing it. As she was reviewing it, she got diagnosed with breast cancer. Right. She said she initially just deleted the entire section that she wrote on fear because at that time it was very much choose to be uncomfortable, put yourself in positions that make you feel uncomfortable, and and there was an element of fear to that. But she said as soon as she got diagnosed with breast cancer, she sat there and she was like, Oh my god, I I've never actually known what fear was. She says, true fear is something that happens to you and not something that you choose to do. And so I think that that kind of boxing element as well is like, yeah, you're choosing to be in there, but this other person is happening to you at the same time, and that's scary.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

And I think, yeah, there's that there's that whole trend a while ago about people doing ice bars and soreness. I love hot, cold therapy, don't get me wrong. But a fair amount of people were you know shouting that choose to be uncomfortable, choose to do this, choose to do that, and it's great for that element, but it's not true fear. Yeah. And I think that yeah, she rewrote that entire section and says the main, the main driver that got her through that was taking action. And there's a certain amount of time that you need to spend sitting in that uncomfortable position to get your wits about you. But as soon as you've sat there for long enough, you need to take action and do something about it. And she says she just went to all the specialists, did all the research that she could, and really got on the front foot of trying to get through this. And that was the thing that helped her get through that. Super important to distinguish that I don't think a lot of people actually experience fear to the extent that maybe she has. But I think that the important lesson is that you know, you need to understand the difference between unc being comfortable and being scared as two diff different things. Yeah. And they they take two different parts of you to be able to get through.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah. Yeah. And that's I guess a big part of a lot of mental health disorders, you know, like your PTSD, it's a lot of it is that life-threatening experience that if you can get out of it and find the way out of it, by and large, you you you know, the the trauma symptoms down the track aren't as aren't as severe. It's the people that get stuck in these life-threatening situations that can't get out, yeah. Um, that lose that ability to to control the moment that normally have those residual trauma symptoms and struggle with things like PTSD down the track.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yeah, it's the the coping mechanism that maybe got them through it in the moment, but isn't actually adaptive to everything. And they just replicate it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Do you see that a lot in your experience in the Juvie setting?

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Um to be honest, probably I I don't think I was asking the right questions in the Juvie setting. I think my understanding around trauma probably wasn't there and wasn't looking at it deeply enough. Uh, but I think when I worked working with a lot of you know young people from refugee backgrounds and hearing stories and um, you know, that then I could then start to see that a lot more, you know, that the the impact of trauma and you know, simple things. I remember once um something that really got me was you know a young person from I think it was Burma actually, and um non-verbal, but we we did some non uh some some play-based stuff and um looking at good and bad moments a lot across a timeline, and he had this one big black mark for uh represented a bad moment, and that was him having to leave his dog because he really wanted to bring his dog with him. Um, but obviously, you know, had to you know leave countries and and flee a situation he just left his dog at home and didn't stay, didn't know what happened to it. So um, you know, that that again that's a similar thing to what you were saying in that real life trauma that you know, like when when things are really on the line versus you know, us jumping into an ice bath when yeah or watching Fox Sports or yeah, yeah, you know, having um a towel there ready to go and a nice hot shower, you know, whenever you want it. But yeah, um I think it's good that people are trying to understand a little bit more around that survival response. I think that's really important. But yeah, like you said, it's there's no substitute for the real thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Yeah, there's levels to it for sure. Yeah, even just living in Australia, you're kind of protected to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, we I've I say that a lot to to my own family, right? You sort of look back and you think, oh, yeah, we we've got it pretty good when we can pick and choose all these little things or get worried about all these things that aren't really really big in the grand scheme of things.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

How much of it do you think is you have to experience the other side of it to appreciate it? Like the grass is always greener until you walk through a muddy paddock, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yeah, yeah. Look, it's I mean, again, it's a really hard one to try and explain. I I I've never experienced anything anywhere near what the clients I've worked with have having to experience. So I couldn't really tell you if I appreciate it enough, but probably understanding what other people have gone through gives me a little bit of a head start. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, I think you know, until you know, I I feel a bit of guilt if I leave my dog at home when I go to Bunnings, you know, yeah, or if I go to the park and leave him home, I feel bad. So, you know, you can't I can't really put myself into that young person's shoes, but I can understand that it you know there'd be a a lot of discomfort there, a lot of a lot of pain.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

So yeah. So we spoke kind of earlier about your work now and and you're seeing a lot of effects from social media um on a lot of your clients. What are the kind of presentations you're seeing?

SPEAKER_00 40:35

I guess a real eye-opener for me was when I started working at child and adolescent mental health. Um a lot more with females, I have to say, but there was a lot of bully, you know, the the I guess the exposure to to taunting and bullying you know, before social media and especially mobile phones, having access to social media 24 hours a day. You know, you know pretty simply if you got bullied at school, you sort of finish at three o'clock and you go home. And if you had a a pretty good life outside of school, you know, you could you got some respite. But now, you know, it can follow you into the toilet. You know, I say that to kids where it's probably the only piece of technology where it follows us literally everywhere. Yeah. You know, like you know, there's all these really cool cars and like all the cameras around here, but they stay here, you know. Like we we we leave them, we have a certain amount of control over them, we we pick and choose when we use them. Yeah. Whereas your phone, it follows you everywhere, everywhere. And um, if if you're getting picked on, then you're getting picked on everywhere too. So it's pretty relentless. And uh I th I saw that a lot more with girls where um Jonathan Haidt, who's a social psychologist in the US, he spoke of a lot about the rise in things like depression and anxiety since I think it was 2012 or 2013 when things like Facebook and Instagram and all the chat group uh social media became a lot more popular. Um yeah, massive rise, more so in girls, with things like depression and anxiety. And I definitely saw that in child and adolescent mental health. It was a lot of girls coming in and um just getting bullied day in and day out, day and night, um, and almost getting drawn to continuing to check their phones, and even though it was you know, all bad, um and they just get stuck in this really bad rut where they were, you know, in a pretty bad way, a lot of them. You know, a lot of girls were not so much um suicidal in the sense that they they thought their life was over and that they couldn't see any benefit, but the just the level of distress and that inability to to find a way out, and it's like yeah, yeah, I don't necessarily want to die, but I'm so distressed right now that I don't know how to cope and I'm overwhelmed and can't get away from it. Yeah, and that was a lot of it, and and I uh a big part of it was that that social media aspect and just the access to it. And I think we spoke about it earlier where in the juvie, you know, a lot of it was isolating other girls, you know, like you your bullying might not necessarily be fighting, it could be picking on one specific person or gossiping about someone, or yeah, um and and getting people on board with you, um and social media is a perfect example vehicle for it.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Something that I got. Have you seen Adolescence, the series on Netflix?

SPEAKER_00 43:36

No, but uh that's on my list, so that's my next uh thing I have to watch.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

It's definitely generated but a lot of conversations. But yeah, one of the one of the points I think they made in the the last episode was the parents were saying that they didn't really know what their kid was doing in his room all the time. They knew that he was kind of on his phone or his computer, but they they just thought he was watching videos or something, and I That's definitely something that maybe a lot of the older generations struggle to understand is the the online space and how damaging it can be.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, most definitely. And I guess going back um to a lot of the clients I work with now, I I I feel like um community activity. So I've got a couple of kids that are in enrolled in some community activities, but particularly sport is such a protective factor because you know, a lot of the neurodiverse kids do have hard times at school. So having something positive to finish your day, or you know, something different, or people knowing you as someone different is that yeah, you know, the kid with ASD or ADHD that you know gets in a bit of trouble or has some social issues at school, having you know, being known for something if you're good at sport or yeah, you know, part of a team somewhere else can be a real protective thing. So if you yeah, that's a that's a a challenge that I find with a lot of kids. If they're in their room for too long, um, it limits their exposure to all these other opportunities and um it almost creates that yeah, that a different little version of the world for a almost like a yeah, another another completely different environment and it's very unreal.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Jonathan Hayden, who you mentioned before, has a good point that it's not necessarily what what we're consuming when we're spending time online, it's things that we're missing out on. And you know, you take a consume that post actually, yeah. Yeah, you take a a a 12 or a 13-year-old who's supposed to be on this development trajectory, and now all of a sudden they're spending five and a half hours a day at school and six hours a day on social media, and that time that they're spending online is not time outside learning to ride a bike or learning to communicate or socialise. Yeah, and those are the important steps for development that a lot of kids these days just aren't getting exposure to.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Yeah, yeah, that's that's such a good point. Um, I mean, on look on the flip side, there's there's a lot of benefits to using technology and social media, and there's a lot of good to it as well. I think it's a matter of controlling it and being reasonable about it. I think if you were to, I don't know, I'm thinking of any other hobby, if you were to, you know, stay at the gym for seven or eight hours a day, that could be harmful as well. So it's it's about knowing when and and where to use things and being in control of it. I think that's probably the biggest part of it. Yeah. Control and saying, look, I'll use it, but I'm still gonna go out and enjoy those things that you mentioned, or you know, I'm gonna ride my bike at the same time, or yeah, not at the same time as you're using social media, I just preface that, but yeah, you've got you've got to have that balance in your life, I think. Yeah. And um learning how to control it is gonna be a big thing going forward, I think.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

The there's been more studies now that young teenage boys who are aren't going out and socialising or playing sports and are spending a lot of time online are becoming more depressed, but they're also becoming more susceptible to maybe harmful harmful or dangerous views that are being pushed online, and it's it's this this population of boys that are that are depressed or don't have other things going on that are just spending so much time online that are are the actual ones that are being affected by the the whole space.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point too. I think that's something that again you have to have an understanding around how that all those algorithms work, and I'm definitely not someone who's an expert on it, but you know, the more you surround yourself with a certain view or certain group of people, then the more that gets flooded into your into your um yeah channels and streams, and then that becomes normal because you think that that's that's the majority, whereas in Magda, that's probably a very small part of the world.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Yeah, well, even even from a health perspective, we're looking at increasing rates of body dysmorphia where you spend hours a day on your phone looking at people that are, you know, pitch perfect, and I I don't know how prominent Photoshop is online anymore, but you know, these these influencers that maybe have their life is set up to be able to eat the cleanest, healthiest foods every day because they're getting paid to do so. Yeah. And maybe they have time to do two or three workouts a day and they have these perfect morning routines that they say everyone should follow. And it's like, well, what about the person that's working nine or ten hours a day and is trying to support a family and do all these other things? They they can't afford that, they don't have the time to do that. If you're opening your phone and looking at the top tier of people that are across the world now, not just our immediate environment, no wonder comparison is contributing to a lot of these mental effects.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Yeah, yeah, because we only see that that absolute best version of someone. We don't see everything else. I I remember um on that point uh a friend on Facebook had a baby and um posted, you know, the first photo of the baby and her hair was done. Like not that I know much about hair, but um her hair was uh it looked like it was done by a professional anymore.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

If you're listening and you're not watching the video, uh Ari is bald for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Um amazing. And I remember my wife commented on it. I was like, how does she look so beautiful after having a baby? Um and again, I've uh I don't know if my wife will ever listen to this, but my wife did not look like that when she had a baby. It was a it was a horror movie. But that's the reality, right? And then this lady's posted something that's so different, um, you know, probably a couple of hours of prep for it, yeah. Um taken into this one photo that a lot of people don't see, and yeah, um, you know, then that that becomes normal for a lot of people in terms of what they think is normal, and yeah, and then they don't meet that and can be pretty, yeah, pretty harmful, I think.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Yeah, even just the example from like a relationship point of view, you know, uh rewind back to the the 80s and say you you had a long-term relationship and you broke up with someone, it was like, well, that was the last point that you really saw them. And it was like you wouldn't go through your day-to-day life seeing what they're doing every day now. Cool, we're gonna s we're gonna go our separate ways and live our own lives, and that's it. People are ending relationships now and having so much time to try and get over it because they're looking at what that person's doing every day still, yeah. And they're constantly popping up in their phone. No wonder it's hard for people to get over someone if it's if it's constantly being shoved in your face. Yeah. So yeah, I think all aspects of of that social media side of things can can be good, but also can be harmful. Yeah, most definitely.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Most definitely. I think that's a big part. Um and I guess people knowing a lot more than what they used to, you know. If you again, I don't want to say I don't want to make this uh sound too cheeky, but you know, if someone goes to the gym now, they normally tell people, or if they have a nice dinner with a partner, they'll they'll tell people and yeah, um, or they'll they'll post a photo telling people, and yeah, if you know I don't know if you don't post it, it'll even happen.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Yeah, yeah. I I joke about that sometimes with with with friends where I'm like, maybe we should take a photo because you know no one will believe us. Yeah. Um but yeah, I think that that side of it too, you know, just being able to be in the moment and not having to have phones. Like I see it even with concerts where you know everyone's got their phone out watching the concert through a phone, where making sure that everyone knows that they're at the concert. So yeah, uh it's tricky, right? And I guess I I think ideally, if I could, um I'd love for people to be able to put all the bad stuff too, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Like yeah, definitely post the worst moments.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Yeah, yeah. No, I look, I do try. I I know I'm not very big on social media, but when I do, I normally try and post something a bit silly. Um you know, if I think um, yeah, something that goes wrong, maybe take a photo of that and just showing people that you're you're not perfect all the time. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

You've spent a bit of time working in the nutrition side of things. What's some of the key takeaways you've learned from that?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Yeah, look, I it's it's a really emerging field in psychology, and I guess a lot of the stuff we've spoken about, you know, there's so many factors that go into mental health, good or bad. And I think in all of the roles that I've had a big part of the dysfunction was around food, exercise, sleep, you know, your basic survival stuff. Yeah. And there's this growing uh body of research around nutritional psychology, and there's you know, there's plans to start to incorporate that into our uh practice. And again, not not to replace uh other forms of intervention, but just to add on to to our work because I think if we're not really looking at those basic survival needs well and we're not addressing them, I don't think we're gonna have much success with our clients. And that's the experience that I've had in my career where you know you've got kids that are, you know, possibly an example could be social media, you know, being on till three or four in the morning and then, you know, sleeps out of whack, um, waking up at midday, having a packet of chips for breakfast and um not going outside, not getting the sun, not riding their bike, all the things that you mentioned. Yeah. You know, I think if you or I were to do that for a couple of days, we'd start feeling a bit crappy.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

So I think there was a study published that was that said a single bad night of sleep makes you 30% more reactive to negative emotions. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

Yeah. And I remember um when I was in uh CAMs at at um at the hospital there, that was a big part of our initial sessions. You know, and and I would say the majority of kids would come in with sleep disturbance, really poor diet, very, very little time outdoors. Yeah. I remember like one extreme was in terms of um increasing exercise and exposure to being outdoors. We made a young yeah, one of the recommendations where you know he goes and checks the letterbox every day. And that could be a 10-meter walk each way, but yeah, uh that was more than what he was getting beforehand. So, you know, when when you're so out of whack in those basics, yeah, it sounds really simple, but if you can get those right, then a lot of those we would see a big improvement in a lot of mental health issues. Yeah, definitely. Um so I think if we don't if we don't touch if we don't as a as a field start to take it more seriously, we're we're gonna be wasting a lot of our energy and our resources. Yeah. Um so I think that's been a big part of why I'm I'm getting into it. Um and I think if you look at nutrition, it can be really complicated and you know, we don't need to know the ins and outs of it, but the basics around it, and then incorporating our own skills as psychologists to try and help people navigate choices around it or understanding some of the mechanisms around why you're you're doing what you're doing, and yeah, and how to get again a bit more of that control. A lot of um I did a course not long ago um on nutritional psychology, and one of the key points that I took out of it was rather than teaching people diet skills, you you really want to be teaching them emotion regulation skills because we're more likely again to make poor choices when our prefrontal cortex and the thinking part of the brain is not not online.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

So it's like, oh I'm I've had a bad day, I'm gonna order pizza in, and yeah, all of a sudden it's I've had a bad day four days of the week and you have pizza in.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yeah, that's right, that's right. And in the short term, uh, you know, emotional eating or tasty, you know, like when we eat for taste, um, that's activate that activates our reward system, our dopamine system. So we we start to seek that out. And it's pretty fascinating because it looks at all the changes that you know that one poor decision can then lead to four days or five days, and and changes in our brain can happen within a week around what we then start to value in terms of food and what we look for and what our body responds to.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

And yeah. Um I normally try to do like meal preps for the week on a Sunday, and my Sunday afternoon routine is very I would say I'm probably rigid with it because I I I know if I don't set myself up for the week on a Sunday afternoon, I'm gonna fall down all the cracks. And so, you know, if I don't, Monday comes around and I'm buying food. And if I'm buying food, then I'm gonna probably choose something that I want to eat that's tastier and it's like it's maybe it's not as healthy. That's right. And then, you know, but then when am I gonna do my next meal? Perhaps well, I'm probably gonna do it on Wednesday now.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

And so then there's three days about eating, and so yeah, it's very Yeah, and availability, like that's one part that it covers where you look, you know what's around you, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Yeah, if you if you're hungry and your choices are, you know, a couple of takeaway shops, well yeah, you're more likely to do it. But if you have your meal ready to go, it it changes it.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

Yeah, definitely, yeah. Yeah. What are the what's two or three points that you would leave our listeners on to kind of maximize their their psychological health through their nutrition?

SPEAKER_00 57:32

Look, I would I would just see I would try and explain nutrition as a as a continuum. So you got your homeostatic eating, which is your eating for survival, which is controlled by one part of the brain, and then your hedonic eating, which is eating for taste or pleasure. And we're all on a continuum of that. So you don't really need to be at 100% uh of one side or you know eating well all the time, it's just sort of understanding where you fit on that continuum, and if you can improve it somewhat, I think that'll be a really good starting point. And what that does, then that just gives you again an element of control over what you're doing and an understanding and bring makes it a little bit more conscious, yeah. Um, and that's that's a big part of it. And I think feeding back into sport and nutrition, I think you know they feed into each other. Yeah, you know, so you you want to have other parts of your life going well as as well. You know, I know with myself, if I'm eating well, I'm more likely to be exercising a bit better. Yeah, definitely. Sleeps a bit better, yeah, because I know that I've got stuff to do the next day. Yeah. And if if one starts to go out of whack, then the others are more likely to as well. Yeah. So it's it's you know that they all work hand in hand with each other, and I think that's a really big part of it. Not not looking at one magic bullet, just trying to see how that fits into the rest of our life and how we can improve it.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

The flow on effect works positively and negatively.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, most definitely. I know with myself it definitely does, and I yeah, I think in the in the times where I've been eating my best, other parts of my life are doing well as well.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

So I think as well online, a lot of the space is targeted towards fat loss or people that are maybe you know trying to lose weight, but I think there's a fair amount of people that probably don't eat enough and don't don't understand that if you don't fuel your body correctly, you're not gonna function correctly either. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Yeah. I think that's the under important thing. Again, that's if I could use social media as an example, it's you know, a lot of artificial stuff, people at their absolute best. Um I know from men, like you know, they might be looking like that for one week of the year and they'll go and get photo shoots and they'll, you know, they're posting that throughout the year. Um so yeah, and it's you know, it'd be something similar for women, probably, you know, in a similar way. And it's you know, from a mental health perspective, if you're hungry, like you said, you're you're more likely to be irritable and yeah, you a bit more likely to have negative emotions. And um, you know, if you take a photo of someone on Instagram, you know, don't know what mental state they're in, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, people that aren't eating enough, it's it's just as important to be fueling your body. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for your time. No, also, man. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Anytime. Thank you. Cheers.