WEBVTT 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:08.080 Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast. 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:16.800 Thank you for joining us to learn more about Celebration Orlando, a church devoted to reaching the lost, equipping the found, and helping the hurting. 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:25.519 Follow us on social media using the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website, celebrationorl.org. 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:33.520 We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you live Tropical Storm Debbie updates. 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:35.600 Yes, we're going to be here for 24 hours. 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:39.759 We're going to be your go-to place to get all updates on all things storm-related. 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:45.359 Anywho, this is the Celebration Church Orlando podcast. 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:53.759 And if you stumbled along this podcast, this is a segment we like to call after the message, whether you're watching on YouTube or now you can watch on Spotify. 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:56.479 We are. 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:04.799 We've cultivated the ground, we've taken up, we've cornered an area of the market, and here we are on Spotify. 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:08.560 Hopefully, we're watching on Spotify, and I didn't just make more work for us. 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:12.879 So glad that you're with us for a new season of After the Message. 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:19.040 This is a segment that uh just helps us continue the conversation from the previous Sunday sermon. 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:22.640 And I'm joined by the lead pastor of Celebration Orlando, Pastor Keith. 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:23.120 How are you? 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:24.079 I'm great, man. 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:24.400 Yeah. 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:24.879 I'm great. 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:30.560 I'm excited to be here, excited for the season that we're launching with After the Message. 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:31.840 I'm glad to be sitting here with you. 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:39.280 And I love continuing the conversation in this format because I think it just allows us to explore in ways that sometimes the platform doesn't allow us to. 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:40.079 Very true. 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:40.560 Yeah. 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:43.280 And you even mentioned our setup here. 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:46.879 You're you're pleased with the actual seats that we're sitting in. 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:47.359 Yes. 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:47.840 Yes. 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:53.040 If you if you guys are been around the after the message um community, for we're gonna call them a community. 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:57.760 I feel like it's a group of eight of them out there that are waiting for our next episode to drop. 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:04.319 But if you're part of our after the message community, then you know that we we've we've grown and we've had been in different spaces. 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:10.719 And the last setting was we had tables between us, and and we're moving closer to closer to like this this format. 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:11.439 So I love this. 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:14.240 This is our first time in this format, and it fits me right, man. 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:16.879 It's it's a vibe, as you know, is um our freeze around here. 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:18.400 That's right, it's a vibe. 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:27.919 Uh at this this point of our church history, if you will, we are in uh a new series called Corinth. 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.759 Uh a ser a much anticipated series for you personally. 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:34.159 I I believe that would be fair to say, right? 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:35.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:46.560 And so bringing with Corinth are some additional elements that we don't typically do with every sermon series that we have at Celebration Church, Orlando. 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:51.199 One of those additional elements being After the Message podcasts that we're doing right here. 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:51.840 Let's go. 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:59.840 We are partnering with Right Now Media, and we're doing a study, a Jenny Allen study that's going along with that. 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:10.719 So maybe you watch from afar and you want to get more information about how to connect with us on that extra element, you can just reach out to us, social media, email, whatever. 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:11.840 We can sign up. 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:13.840 We can give you access to right now media. 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:14.159 Yep. 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:17.439 And I hope they're not mad at me for blasting that all over the internet. 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:25.039 And we're also, if you're with us on Sundays, uh, I don't know if we ran out of journals or not, but we we bought some journals for the church. 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.439 Yeah, I just got an update from Pastor Lindsay. 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:29.520 We're we're we're definitely in scarcity mode right now. 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:31.360 There's like a very few that remain. 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.719 So um I don't know, maybe we'll make people arm wrestle for them or something. 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:35.120 I don't know. 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.080 I think I think we're definitely like under 20. 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:38.479 Okay. 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:41.680 Yeah, we we've certainly seen them um fly off the shelves. 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:42.240 Okay. 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.520 So next Sunday could be the last Sunday that those are available. 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:46.319 All right. 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:51.919 But they are on Amazon, and you know, miraculously they're pretty good priced. 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:54.479 So we can considering what they are. 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:57.120 Yeah, I mean it's it's literally like a work of art. 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:57.439 Yeah. 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:02.159 So yeah, it's it's definitely something I'm proud that we're able to kind of make available to our church. 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:15.439 Um that not only allows us to do this as a community, but ultimately allows the individual to go deeper in their journey in this because my my heart's desire has always been that the conversation doesn't begin and end on Sunday. 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:25.120 Like ultimately, I feel the responsibility that I often carry when I'm going on platform is like I'm gonna do my best to contextualize and lay things out, but the goal is for you to continue it. 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:27.040 And so I think this journal helps with that. 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.160 Where when did that start for you personally? 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:41.680 Like, maybe we've talked about this a little bit in the past, but continuing off of from Sunday, was it just a hunger, like I need to know more, or was it someone who just encouraged you, like, hey, here's a way to get more? 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:44.560 What when did that start for you as a as a believer? 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:48.160 Man, um I'll keep this as succinct as possible. 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:50.879 It started for me in the very beginning of my faith journey. 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:58.319 And primarily because I've shared this on platform, but all of my friends at the time that I surrendered my life to Christ had different belief systems. 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.279 Like our community of friends was Corinth. 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:05.040 Like we had agnostic, we had atheists, we had everything in our mix. 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:13.759 So so when I have this radical encounter with God and I change my life, like, hey, this is a journey I'm on, I just remember, like, for the lack of better words, being interrogated. 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.439 And and I was raised as a Christian, but obviously I couldn't answer questions. 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.279 I was just like, hey, this is how I was raised. 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:30.240 And so I think probably like three weeks into going to church three weeks in a row, which as an adult was completely unheard of for me, I remember talking with the pastor and saying, like, man, I just have so many questions. 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:39.759 And then he just said, Hey, why don't you just go back and write notes from the sermon and and when I make scripture references, read through the scripture references, and that started for me. 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:43.279 So I would literally just go back, I would buy the tapes back when actually you would buy tapes. 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:50.480 I would buy the tapes of the sermon, and then I would listen to the sermons, and when he's referencing things, I would go back and I'll read the entire chapter. 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:56.160 And I just that was my thing of record, and so it gave me so much context and it gave me more confidence in what I believed. 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:04.399 Because, like, the thing about our faith that I love, but that's also challenging, is that everyone's at a different place of development when they're sitting in the seats. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:04.720 Right. 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:14.959 So as a communicator, you're trying your best to give enough information for the person that may be completely unfamiliar, but you're also aware of the person that's been walking with God for 50 years and they're like, Yeah, man, get to the good stuff. 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:16.959 So you're trying your best to weave it all together. 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:22.240 And so in that we trust God, but there's a responsibility that I believe that has to take place on both sides. 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:27.120 Like, as the person sitting in the seats, at some point you have to pursue this on your own. 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:35.120 And I'm simply here as a guide to kind of help stoke some curiosity, maybe answer some questions, but but we have to continue the conversation. 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:37.360 Yeah, that's a lost art. 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:41.120 I feel like today is the process, right? 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:53.279 The process of being a disciple because there's masterclass this and learn this in five minutes, or here's you know, 12 steps to being able to understand the Bible. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:59.199 And and I think to some extent those are good Kickstarters or good catalysts for our walk. 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:07.040 But you know, if if we're not if we're not looking at the lifetime view of things, we're gonna get easily frustrated, number one. 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:09.920 And number two, uh, we may even give up. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:10.879 So absolutely. 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:22.639 It's it's uh I think that's why I've learned, especially now that I'm getting a little bit older, I'm just loving to listen to and like read literature from guys who've been walking with God for like 30, 50 years. 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:26.480 Like there's something about just people who just been walking with God faithfully. 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:34.959 So one of my go-to people is uh Eugene Peterson, and he has this incredible book or a statement that he makes called A Long Obedience in the same direction. 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:36.800 Um, I think he has a book on it as well. 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:42.240 But it's just basically just what does it look like to walk faithfully with God year after year after year? 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.319 And and I know in our modern culture, kind of like what you alluded to, that's so unheard of. 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:48.720 Just give me the three steps that gets me there overnight. 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:50.959 But what about a long obedience in the same direction? 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:56.160 We're just gonna walk with God and we're gonna trust him, we're gonna suffer, we're gonna cry, we're gonna agree, we're gonna keep moving forward. 00:07:56.319 --> 00:08:03.120 I think that's a life that's lived well instead of the quick way I can get there, because I think sometimes there's shortcuts out of pain, but it will catch up. 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:03.600 Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:11.439 And if we don't have the theological and relational depth with God to wrestle with those things and sit in it, then we could feel God forsaken, and I think we lose hope. 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:19.040 The the series, the Corinth series was birthed out of an actual trip that you took to Greece. 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:26.319 Can you maybe touch on that and and why because I know when you came back you were stoked about this idea. 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:40.639 What what sparked that idea for you to say, hey, we need we need to go through this study as a church and it needs to be in depth and it needs to be uh elongated, you know, we need to spend some time in it. 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:48.320 Well, I think um the short the short version is yes, I went to Greece last year, Megan and I, and it was a part of our study abroad program. 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:54.000 And so the f the framework of us going is we go to a Christian university and we're almost done, praise the Lord. 00:08:54.159 --> 00:09:16.240 Um, but but the framework is a Christian university, and the whole point of the course was to familiarize yourself with different cultures and nuances so that even whether it's as a clinician in the therapeutic space or even as a person who's just walking alongside God and you're trying to be sensitive to what people are walking through, just be mindful that everything is in black and white. 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:26.639 So when we go to Corinth and you begin to read these passages of scripture, and and and honestly, up until this point, I would read Corinth as this is Paul's corrective letter. 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:30.879 This church was a hot mess, and Paul's coming in and bringing order. 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:47.120 But actually physically being there and understanding the culture, the people, all the different um religions and all the stuff that was there that was bleeding into the church, it's like it gave me a lot more empathy and understanding of how they had got to that point, whereas before I just didn't have that. 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:48.799 So that was a part of it. 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:58.080 But I think there was a moment when there were two moments when it really hit me after kind of like walking and seeing like the literal places that Paul was, places that he alluded to and the book of Acts. 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:09.840 And there's one that I referenced in our sermon called the Bima Seat, where when he um was accused of basically turning the city upside down and causing chaos, um, the Bima seat was this very visible like structure. 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:13.519 Um and ultimately what would happen is all trials were public. 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:22.879 And so the way that the city is set up, you would see a person like on this altar stood up trying to make a defense on why they don't need to be executed or excommunicated. 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:34.000 So it was a very visible thing, and everybody's kind of sitting beneath, and people are walking by like they're watching a play with this person pleading for why they shouldn't be, they shouldn't deal with the punishment. 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:45.039 And they just gave me this deep conviction of like, like, right before that happened, Paul had a visitation from an angel that said, like, hey, nothing's gonna happen to you. 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.080 Keep preaching the gospel, don't turn your back on it. 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:48.799 Trust me. 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:53.600 Next day he's arrested, he's standing on a platform, and they're like, what like his life is in jeopardy. 00:10:53.679 --> 00:11:03.519 And so I don't know what it was about that moment that just when he talks about like I'm unashamed, you just it just gave the Bible a different weight of like, he's not doing this in a quiet room. 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.639 Like, this is a very visible thing that he took a stand on. 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:11.279 And I think the other moment was um the moment that he leaves Corinth. 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:23.440 So there's this moment when he leaves Corinth, he shaves off his hair, and then him and um Priscilla and Aquila, they leave Corinth, and we literally go to the spot where they all are there, they cry. 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:28.480 You see, like we don't see the ship, but you see the church that was assembled there and where they believe he sailed off from. 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:34.000 And it was so serene and so beautiful, but he left because ultimately he was being rejected. 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:43.600 So there was something about seeing what Paul went through that gave me a deeper empathy for him, but also empathy for the community. 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:54.639 And so I don't know when it registered with me, but I'm like, I just feel a need to tell the story that we live in a culture where some people are are ashamed to preach the gospel because they're afraid of the consequences. 00:11:54.879 --> 00:12:02.720 The other side of the coin is we're often critiquing the influence of culture in the church, but I don't think everything is black and white. 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:07.919 There's so many nuances to it, and so I just wanted to tell the story so that we can have more empathy towards one another. 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:22.320 It doesn't change what God's truth says, but I think it can produce a little bit more grace and empathy when we understand that even in the nuances of Paul correcting his church, that it was done with love and it was done in a way that still pointed to Jesus, but it was done with sacrifice as well. 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.399 So that's my best way that I can summarize it, but it was very meaningful for me. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:27.600 Yeah, that's helpful. 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:34.960 When you say that Paul was being rejected, was he being rejected by the church or just the citizens of the city overall? 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.720 What what was the circumstance there? 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:37.440 Both. 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:47.840 So so initially, when he was there with the church community as it was being established, um those who were being drawn to the gospel message, they love Paul. 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:54.159 Okay, he's great, he's gonna he's bringing this message of unification, he's showing us value and purpose, belonging. 00:12:54.320 --> 00:13:00.720 People who were part of lower caste systems were being treated with equality, which that didn't exist anywhere else. 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.360 Like you were pretty much what you were is what you were. 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:09.519 So now you have this guy coming in, let's share a meal together with slaves and freedmen and prostitutes. 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.759 Like, so he's really creating a this this movement that people felt amazed by. 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.000 So they loved him from that standpoint. 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:30.320 Now, the religious people, particularly the Jewish religious folks, they began to feel some type of way because they were seeing Jews shift over, and so they were thinking that, hey, this is just another person who's sowing seeds of a false doctrine, he needs to get out of here. 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:32.720 So he was being rejected by the religious elite. 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:42.559 When he leaves and he goes on with the rest of his missionary journeys, and then he hears about how the chaos in a city begins to work its way into the church. 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.879 One, because you know, it's a story. 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:51.200 I like to say it this way the children of Israel were in the wilderness for 40 years, and the goal was to get Egypt out of them. 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.559 Egypt is still in all of us, so it's it's just the sanctification process. 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:05.200 So when Paul left, the Egypt or the godless part started kind of rising up again, and that's when you start to see some of the chaos that we'll talk about in the coming weeks. 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.039 So when Paul writes the letter saying, like, hey guys, what's going on? 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:13.039 Like, this isn't what we talked about, that's when they began, then the church began to reject him. 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.840 That's when they began to challenge his authority. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:30.960 So you'll see him speaking a lot to his authority in 2 Corinthians because um he was being challenged because other apostles were coming in, and you would have Peter who showed up, and they're like, Well, he really walked with Jesus, so we're we're gonna rock with him, and then you would see other people show, like, well, he's a better communicator. 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:35.279 So, so Paul had to like he had to like verify, like, no, I was called by God. 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:41.600 So even though he weaves that in in 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians, he really drills down on the fact that no, I'm called. 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:53.200 I was called to do this, but again, it it makes my heart break because like you're simply trying to do what God called you to do and and you're trying to build and you're trying to move things forward, and people are like, Yeah, but who are you to tell us what to do? 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.840 So that was kind of the tone of 2 Corinthians. 00:14:55.919 --> 00:15:00.000 So he was rejected by the culture, but eventually he was rejected by the church. 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:16.559 Yeah, the empathy that you're talking about that you experienced just by being in the historical setting, let's now compare that to actually being where we are in this point in time in history. 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:22.480 Does that and I'm assuming your answer is yes, does that extend to the American church now? 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:34.639 Do you have a different um do you have a different appreciation or a different understanding or different approach to how you're viewing the church after this experience? 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:45.519 And I know you've been talking a lot about even leading up to this and even on Sunday about the the similarities between the two cultures. 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:47.519 So it's a little bit of a loaded question. 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:54.480 So backing up here, what are the similarities between Corinth and we'll just call it the Western church now, because that's where we are. 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:55.919 I can't speak to anything else. 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:06.559 And then what is your empathetic or how are you trying to approach maybe some of those issues that are similar to what was being written in First Corinthians? 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:07.519 That's a great question. 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:09.039 I don't think I really consider that. 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:15.360 I would say first, the the similarities are pretty much bar for bar, theme for theme. 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.240 So you have division, which was a major part of it. 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.039 Then you had doctrinal debates. 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:22.879 What is the gifts of the spirit? 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.000 You have what role do women play in ministry. 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:31.360 So some of these same things that we've seen, um, what is the role of a husband and wife? 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:38.879 Um what is what is it, what is sexuality, and and and what are the boundaries on it, or if any. 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:46.639 So again, I think the things that we've seen then and the stuff that we plan on addressing in the series are virtually identical to what we're seeing in culture now. 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:53.200 So I would say theme for theme, it's pretty much identical in the sense of like what was happening then, what's happening now. 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.799 It happened in the in the in the eastern church, it just works its way over it. 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:10.400 I I I remember several years ago, um, I spent some time in London, and I was informed that ultimately the Western church is typically 20 years behind whatever's happening in in the church over in Europe and in the East. 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:19.440 And so they pretty much predicted that say, hey, and this was probably about 15 years ago, they were like, there's gonna come a time when and they began to outline some of the struggles that they were kind of wrapping up. 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:23.359 They like, hey, this is gonna hit the American church, and I was like, I don't see that happening. 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.000 And bro, we're sitting right in the middle of it. 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:34.240 Political influences, all those things, they've they've always kind of been here, but the way that they are so present now is a lot more evident. 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:43.440 Now, our our dynamics are a little bit more unique because we have like we have we vote for our leaders and their systems and structures and things like that. 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:51.039 And so it's a little bit different from other churches in the sense that we've attached our ideology and we've kind of woven it in. 00:17:51.119 --> 00:18:02.079 So that's a little bit unique, but it still has a very similar expression when it comes down to placing our hope in certain leaders and systems that may help one, but not necessarily the other. 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.400 So that's similar that we'll be getting into. 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:10.160 Um the second part, the empathy part, man, that's actually that's actually a great question. 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:17.920 And I think that as as you as I ponder it, I suspect that I will need to be mindful of that, just being completely honest. 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:27.440 Because I think over the years, what I have experienced is a great deal of frustration when I look at the Western church. 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:33.039 And and what I mean by that is like how I feel like at times we've gotten off mission and I see the division. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:58.400 And my my personal context is uh spending many years at like my past 15, no, probably about 18 years in ministry has been in very diverse churches, and it's something that I think that um God has really allowed us to walk through, diverse in every essence of it, uh, socioeconomic, ethnic, culturally, politically, and I've been witness to these beautiful movements. 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:09.519 And but I I would say over the past eight years or so, I've just seen it degrade more and more where it becomes more challenging, specifically uh with social issues and things like that. 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:11.119 And it just didn't used to be that way. 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:18.160 So I do find that my personal frustration is how we've I've seen things kind of drift apart. 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:18.400 Yeah. 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:30.400 So I find myself being more frustrated and critical of allowing ourselves to get there, but I but I think to your point that empathy is still needed with understanding how did we get here. 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:40.640 But I recognize it as it's um for me, I think I bypass the the policies and the people and I see the spiritual division behind it, and I think that's what I find myself more fired up about. 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:48.079 It's like, man, like it's almost like the scene in um the Garden of Eden when when God is kind of like talking with Adam and Eve, like, yo, like what's going on? 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.960 And they're talking, and of course Adam blames Eve, but then Eve's like, no, but the serpent did it. 00:19:53.200 --> 00:20:04.160 And even though it looks like scapegoating a little bit, there are moments when I see that we're so busy pointing a finger back and forth that we of a church, we've forgot that the serpent was the one that's in the middle of all this in the first place. 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:18.400 So I think that's where my frustration comes the most is that we're so busy fighting about policies and different ideology things that we've missed sight that hey, there's a serpent that's been causing all of this, and we're not even even making an effort to recognize that that's the source of the problem. 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:24.240 Yeah, it's almost you know the scene where Jesus is he's weeping over the city. 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:26.079 He's like they're sheep without a shepherd. 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.599 They're that you know, father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing. 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:36.160 I feel a sense of that, even and that, and I guess you're right, that can turn to frustration. 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:37.680 Like, guys, what are we doing? 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.480 We're missing all so I I can definitely see that. 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.839 Um you know, you opened the can of worms, not me. 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.440 Let's talk about politics a little bit. 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:46.960 Okay, let's do it. 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:53.119 Well, we we we touched on this in a series earlier in the year with reclaim. 00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:03.839 Um, but how does how does politics well let's get back, let's go back to what you said in a a few seconds ago was how did we get here? 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:13.519 You know, and and again, we we kind of touched on this in reclaim a little bit, but you mentioned what are we three months out from the election here in America? 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:15.839 Um, because we do have global listeners. 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:22.240 So and and which I'm sure most of them are are aware of what's happening here. 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.559 Um but yeah, how did we get here? 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:30.319 How did the church become influenced by what's happening in the political sphere? 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.400 Have we always been influenced to some ex extent? 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:44.240 Is it to a higher degree or is it our perception of that, you know, you even you even mentioned like, hey, we're gonna be okay, you know, in your sermon the other day. 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.920 We're not we're not being you know burned at the stake here, at least not yet. 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:56.799 So uh so yeah, what's your what's your take or maybe even your vantage point from from your years in ministry on how we did get here? 00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.759 I think, you know, I I saw, you know, I'm at a point now. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:08.400 Where I'm trying to be mindful of where I consume information from because everybody has a a slant. 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:08.799 Sure. 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:27.599 So to the best of my remembrance, I know that there's like several decades ago, there was this think tank group that ultimately came out and was beginning to kind of posture the idea that that America needed to be governed with Christian values. 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.480 And this is going back decades and decades ago. 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:42.559 And so that's when you began to kind of see like a very staunch line being drawn between like Christian values and what were the Christian values and then what party was going to grab a hold of those Christian values. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:51.519 So that kind of became like the running language of, hey, we have Christian values, which means the other people obviously don't have any Christian values. 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:53.200 So that kind of created it. 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:55.119 And it was very soft at the time. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:15.039 But what I've noticed over the years as it's progressively moved forward, I think the ideological difference that we're beginning to see more prominent is that, you know, we've always heard, at least from the time I can remember being in in school, at least from what I can remember when I paid attention, um, was like, hey, there's a separation between church and state. 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:15.359 Right. 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.400 This idea, like, hey, let's let's keep these things separate. 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.000 And and those things, it's hard to do because it bleeds over in weird ways. 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.079 Like I I remember, you know, like having moments of silent and prayer. 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:31.279 Like, so it was it was there, but it was also not dictated, but it was there. 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:31.440 Yeah. 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:33.119 And so you kind of have that part of it. 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:37.200 Then you got to a point where, like, hey, let's have a true separation of church and state. 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:43.680 Let's make sure that we keep like the things that are happening in society, particularly like schools and other public places. 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:49.039 Like, let's genuinely be mindful that there may be people who don't share the same beliefs as you. 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.559 You kind of run that, you kind of run that down the field a little bit. 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:58.400 Culture is beginning to evolve and do what culture does, which is the result of people who don't have a relationship with God. 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:07.359 And so what you begin to find is that you have some Christians that have the belief system that says, like, hey, America needs to be governed with Christian values. 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:16.880 So let's vote for people, let's put laws in place, let's put things, um, let's put things in place that allows us to be governed with Christian values. 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:22.000 So now you have a country that has people that are saying, hey, but I'm not a Christian. 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:30.720 Or maybe I don't want you to legislate what my day-to-day life looks like and what it looks like for me to make decisions with my body, all those things. 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:39.359 So I think that's where you begin to see this big divide where I think ultimately it comes down to should our country be governed with Christian values or not. 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:51.519 So I would say, for the sake of just when you're for me, I'm I I recognize that as an American citizen and then the idea of what America is supposed to be, it's a place of freedom. 00:24:51.680 --> 00:25:03.519 So I find myself running through this lid of like, okay, like any time that I've seen laws enforced that were connected to a belief system, it was always oppressive. 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:05.920 There's never been a culture that it's not been. 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:07.279 Go over to Saudi Arabia. 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.440 Like, that's just my but wherever you go, look at the Roman culture, it was always oppressive. 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:19.680 And so it makes me think about when Jesus was doing his thing and they take him and they're like, hey, we're gonna make him king by force. 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:21.200 Jesus said, No, I don't want that. 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:23.039 And he literally disappeared out of the city. 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:35.200 So I think that yes, we want to have a world that is filled with peace, love, but I think that what we're finding now is that you have some people that believe the way that we do that is by putting laws in place and governing it that way. 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:41.279 And then you have other people who believe no, we we win them to Christ and allow them to live a life that makes it possible. 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:48.960 So that's where I see the biggest shift when you have like conservative versus progressive Christians is is is that. 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:53.519 I think my my position when it comes to looking at the world, again, this is looking at the world. 00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.440 I am not surprised that the world is the world. 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:07.039 I don't go into any venue that is not a Christian venue and expect it to uphold my beliefs. 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:17.759 So I think the thing that surprises me is that we are surprised if we go into a store or if we watch TV and we see something that doesn't necessarily support us. 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:20.079 I'm like, yeah, they they never said they were going to. 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.880 Like they're they're not Christian, so why are we expecting it? 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.519 And so I think people's response to that is kind of what's setting the tone for what we're seeing a lot in society. 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:36.240 Yeah, I was talking to a pastor when I was over in Zimbabwe, and he was just asking, you know, what's the state of the church uh in America? 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.000 And my first response is, well, it's lukewarm. 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:43.440 Um but we can talk about revelation another day. 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:44.720 Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get to it. 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:45.920 You know, I want to do a series of it. 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.440 It's coming 2025. 00:26:48.400 --> 00:27:06.960 And then someone else in the car was just like, it's you know, it's very it's very politicized, or if you know, things have become political, and whether whether the country has become uh involved in the church, or the church has become involved in the country, I'm not here to argue that. 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:26.319 But yeah, and then I started to think through that, and I even started to talk to him about even the country, the history and the founding of the nation, and I was like, a lot of people assumed that we are a Christian nation because of some of the rhetoric used in founding the country. 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:32.240 But when I look at even some of those founders, they're not necessarily Christian. 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:36.960 You know, they're the Jefferson Bible isn't the Bible. 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:40.160 You know, he there were things that he didn't like about it. 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:42.000 We would consider him a founding father. 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:50.400 Benjamin Franklin, I don't think, you know, what was a a Jude h held Judeo-Christian uh beliefs, you know. 00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:59.359 I think in the time period it was a little bit more acceptable to talk about God in the sense that we w may refer to him nowadays. 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:09.920 So I think that's why we see some of that language and maybe even some of those traditions, like a national day of prayer or you know, God bless America song, those types of things. 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:10.640 That's it. 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:19.440 Um, so I think that's where we see it, and I think that's where a lot of people get confused and will point to that and say, Well, we were we're a Christian nation. 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.440 And I don't necessarily know if that's the case. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:28.480 I think there are Judeo-Christian values that are kind of weaved into the fabric of how we were founded. 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:28.960 Absolutely. 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:36.160 But the whole point, one of the main pillars of the founding of the country was just religious freedom in general. 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:36.559 Yes. 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:43.759 Um, and like you said, not making laws that were oppressive, especially to those who who were religious. 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:49.599 I think, man, you you you summarize it brilliantly, and I think that's the that's the the tension. 00:28:49.920 --> 00:29:00.480 So when people are often talking about like getting back to a moment when our our our nation was great or whatever that looks like, I think that means something different for everybody. 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:04.079 So I think we just have to be mindful that for some people it's never been that. 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:17.039 And then and then also recognizing that when you look at the influence of when you look at Christian history, and and you know, I I I'm I've never thought that I would be a person who's into like history. 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:17.279 Yeah. 00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:27.359 Like I just never thought I would be into it, but I find myself more intrigued by it because the more that I'm studying history with scripture, the more that it's pointing to culture, and I'm like, I look familiar. 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:32.400 I mean, like, so it's it's it's it's it's drawing me in on things I just never thought that I would. 00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:49.440 But what I'm seeing is that that the way that Christianity was spread, which again, like talk about the crusades forcing people, like at the at at the expense of their lives if they didn't, like that mentality forcing people into being baptized and all of those things, that was so pervasive. 00:29:49.519 --> 00:30:04.480 And so even when you look at the way that the faith quote unquote grew with these massive conversions, and then these same people were governing different countries, and then you have you have America being birthed, like all of those things are bleeding through. 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:14.319 So, yes, while people were trying to escape oppression and religion, that was so much of a formation of the way that they thought it wove its way into just some of the way that we approach things anyway. 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:21.680 But I would honestly say it's almost like when you're reading literature, leading scripture, and trying your best to understand the author's intent. 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:26.400 I don't believe the author's intent was, hey, we're going to be a Christian nation. 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:38.960 Um, because I think to the point that you've made, when you understand why they even sought to break free from and what they were looking to accomplish, it was it was to establish a place of freedom, not a place of control. 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:39.920 Yeah. 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.160 Everybody is gonna love that segment. 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:53.200 Anyways, so First Corinthians even speaks to a little bit about what you just mentioned, and you know, verse 20 says, Where's the wise person? 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:54.400 Where's the teacher of the law? 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:56.079 Where's the philosopher of this age? 00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:58.720 Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:07.039 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what we preach to save those who believe. 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:22.720 So, you know, case in point right there, like God's ways are not the world's ways, and they look foolish to the world, or they look foolish to us until we have the revelation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, you know. 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:30.400 So I think case in point, too, we can't be surprised because the gospel does look foolish. 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:30.960 Absolutely. 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:39.279 There's a guy who died, and supposedly it's supposed to secure my eternal destiny because some Jewish guy died for me, apparently. 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:40.880 What what if I didn't want him to? 00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:42.640 You know, that looks foolish. 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:53.839 It it seems ridiculous when you honestly like I guess it's we pick and choose, but if we honestly were to break down our faith from a pro just a simple logical way, it doesn't make sense. 00:31:54.319 --> 00:32:02.799 And in the same way that when I examine certain aspects of other belief systems, there's a moment where it hits a wall where I'm like, okay, this is this is beyond me. 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:04.000 It just doesn't make any sense. 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:05.920 And and I can name a list of them. 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:24.640 We all have a moment where that revelation has to kind of we have to have this encounter, this divine revelation that we would honestly believe is the Holy Spirit enlightening us and making us aware of our own sin nature and our inability to save ourselves and who Jesus is and what that meant for us, like that doesn't make sense. 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:26.880 One plus one doesn't equal two in that equation. 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:27.359 Yeah. 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:38.559 So in that case, to get to the unity that we so desperately desire, I guess what should be our expectation of unity. 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:49.119 I think you touched on it a little bit on Sunday, but again, how do we even get unified in what unity looks like, number one, you know, and then what are what are the steps that we need we need to take? 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:53.759 Because you you did mention in your first point on Sunday that unity is not uniformity. 00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:02.640 So if we're trying to all look the same or act the same or even even hold the same thought patterns, we're probably not gonna get there. 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:12.079 So that could be a losing battle, which again some countries have tried to do, you know, and that just that is never a good thing either. 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:31.440 So how do we become to the best of your ability explain how do we truly become unified under the name of Jesus while at the same time embracing our different aspects or our our wide array of um of diversity? 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:48.880 I think it would it would require us to because I feel like for for Christians that are genuinely trying to do the best they can, that are that they genuinely are just saying, Hey, I just want to live a godly life, and I want my family to live a godly life, and I want to see us thrive in the way that God intended. 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:52.000 And I want to live in a world and an ecosystem that allows for that. 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:54.400 I'm 1,000% on board with that. 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.599 But I think we often can miss in pursuit of that. 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:03.599 We then look to leaders that kind of promise, like, hey, if I'm in office, I can create that for you. 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:11.760 And again, policies are great, but again, we just have to be mindful of if we're trying to legislate something that that only God can really do. 00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:13.679 But that's a that's a whole nother side point. 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:27.519 I believe what it requires us to do is is to really examine the early church and examine even Jewish history, which is where our faith is birthed out of, because what you will find is there was nuance. 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:41.199 And and Nate, I was probably about 10 years into my walk with God before I realized that even in the the Jewish context, even in the early church context, there were spaces where they didn't agree on everything. 00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:47.679 And so you would see that people would say, look, like let's go back and looking at like how you have different rabbis. 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:52.960 Some rabbis would say, Hey, when I look at the creation story, I think of that as a literal seven days. 00:34:53.039 --> 00:35:02.559 And you have another rabbi that would say, Hey, when I look at that, I look at it as as more of a of a story that's telling the story of God and his creation, but I don't look at it as literally. 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:08.800 So they would talk about it, they would sometimes debate about it, they will walk away, and they will still continue to be friends. 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:20.320 I think we've lost the ability to have nuance where it's okay that if we come to a different conclusion, as long as at the end of the day, both men are saying, but we believe that God is the creator. 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:24.079 So how we get there may look different, but that's okay. 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:28.960 I think we need to go back to our roots and begin to recognize that's how the early church was. 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:31.199 Like they were trying their best to figure it out. 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:41.920 And sometimes I find myself when I read the scriptures and I see like moments where I love the Bible because the Bible doesn't protect, um, they don't protect our leaders from their flaws. 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:43.760 Like it puts it all out there. 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:55.440 So they're arguing, they're debating, they're trying to figure out what do we do with Gentiles, like they're just trying to figure it out and they're capturing all of it, and they're like, hey, listen, how about we just make sure, like, hey, if you're not Jewish, you don't have to get circumcised. 00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:57.280 Like, it's let y'all y'all good with that? 00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:58.400 Cool, cool, cool, cool. 00:35:58.480 --> 00:35:59.280 What else y'all think? 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:10.719 Like, it's literally them just trying their best, being led by the spirit, but you see this space of, hey, let's just have a couple of non-negotiables and everything else, man, let's just keep our hands open because we're all trying to figure this out. 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.400 We've completely lost that. 00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:21.920 We feel like, hey, if you have, not only do you have to believe that Jesus is Lord, but you have to believe in these other eight things too, in order for us to find common ground. 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.000 And I think that's where it gets lost. 00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:26.239 Now that's more on a theological standpoint. 00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:26.719 Okay. 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:39.599 If we roll over to a cultural side of things, I think that we're what I recognize and witness a lot in our world now is the inability to show empathy for others. 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:52.400 And so I think that's something that if we can really submit that to the cross, it's similar to what I said in my in my in my third point about like, man, like it's okay, like with my granddaughters, one it's one's birthday and the other one's not. 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.840 It's okay for me to celebrate one and not the other, and it doesn't say anything about me being any less than. 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:08.159 I feel like we can truly experience unity when I can show empathy to you, and it doesn't, and it doesn't in any way dehumanize me. 00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:22.880 So what I'm noticing now, whenever there's like a tragedy, you take things that are happening in society, whether there's a a mass shooting or or there's a uh something that happens with an individual, and we know the the sensitivities that are in our culture. 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:29.199 When someone is talking about it, someone feels the need to try to undermine it and they try to minimize it. 00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:37.840 When what it would it look like as Christians, we were like, hey man, I don't I can't even imagine what that is, but ma'am, I the Bible tells me to bear one another's burdens. 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:42.639 That's not a burden that I have, but I'm gonna walk alongside you and connect with you and be encouraged with you. 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:49.840 Man, when we were talking about back in 2020 when we're already dealing with a pandemic, but there was a lot of racial tension that was going on. 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:59.760 Um, the amount of people, um the amount of my white friends that have reached out to me and like, hey man, like I I don't know what this looks like. 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:06.320 I don't even know everything that led up to it, but I do understand that that this is not a good look. 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:10.880 I understand that there are people in our African American community that are suffering, that don't feel safe. 00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:12.239 I don't know the answer to it. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.440 I didn't cause it, but bro, I just want to let you know I'm here for you and I'm sorry. 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:16.800 And if there's anything I can do. 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:17.840 Bro, that went so far. 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.840 Like at first I was like, why do you keep calling me? 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:28.400 Like But then I got to a point I'm like, oh man, that's but that's just, hey, I'm gonna bear the burden with you because I know that maybe you feel some way about it. 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.519 Like, that's beautiful. 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:33.920 I feel like there was a moment when we did it because society was like, well, you have to do it. 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:35.199 If not, you get canceled. 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:44.719 But I think if we could do that from a true place of purity of like, hey, whether the cameras on or not, I understand that this is a sensitive subject, and I just want to walk alongside and show empathy. 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:49.360 That's how we can begin to walk in unity where I don't feel like I have to invalidate your pain. 00:38:49.679 --> 00:39:09.280 Yeah, and even asking asking questions, being curious, you know, having a genuine curiosity to understand whether it be r you know racially or theologically, like I think we're already developing our argument before we've even heard what the other person has to say. 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:17.280 And that can be dangerous, and it could be it could impede your personal development as well. 00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:24.480 And I heard somebody say, you know, one of the greatest characteristics of humility is realizing that I'm I could be wrong. 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:38.719 You know, just I have I could have something to learn from you, whether you're five years old or 55, you know, like there's wisdom in being able to learn from all different groups of people and and diverse ways of thinking. 00:39:39.679 --> 00:40:14.559 One of my last questions, if not the last question, here is the role of social media and and how it's exacerbated perhaps the division for lack of a better word, or maybe that is the right word, but it's it's no doubt influenced us you know on a massive scale, and it's given us it's interrupted our ability to be able to do this without cameras and microphones, right? 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:23.280 So if you're modern-day apostle Paul, are you addressing are you addressing this at all? 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:33.920 Like how how do you address it in a in a way that's constructive, in a way that's edifying to the church, but in a way that doesn't say, hey, you can't have social media. 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:34.559 Yeah. 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:47.679 Man, I I think that's that's such a challenging thing because I you know, there's a lot of times where people like we'll read scriptures, we'll take what we know about Paul or Jesus or the disciples and say, well, they would never. 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:48.239