WEBVTT 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.080 Thank you for joining us for After the Message. 00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:12.800 To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at CelebrationOver Health or visit our website at celebrationlowerhealth.org. 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:20.399 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another season of After the Message. 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.679 I lost you, I literally thought you were going to say, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:25.120 I could have said that. 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:26.399 Let me try that again. 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:28.399 Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:29.839 Yes, yes. 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:38.560 Oh man, if you're stumbling along this podcast, you're on the Celebration Church Orlando podcast, and this is a segment we like to call After the Message. 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:43.679 And we talk about the previous Sunday sermon, and this is a brand new season of said podcast. 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:44.399 It is. 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:45.600 I'm pumped about it, man. 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:50.159 The last one we had was in the spring when we did Deconstructed series. 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:50.640 Yes. 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:55.520 Great, great series and phenomenal, phenomenal after the message conversations. 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:56.640 Those were fun. 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.840 And if you haven't, go back in the archives, check them out. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:02.320 Not only check out the series, check out the podcast. 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:07.599 Um we talked to the author of Deconstructed, uh, Dr. 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:07.920 A.J. 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:08.719 Swoboda. 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:09.519 Phenomenal. 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:10.319 He's a great guy. 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:11.280 He's a really good dude. 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:12.640 And he was fun to talk to. 00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:15.599 And he's just and he's brilliant. 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:16.719 He is brilliant. 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:17.040 Yeah. 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:17.439 Yeah. 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:21.920 And he's kind of one of those guys that like makes you feel, well, I don't know anything. 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:22.319 Yeah. 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.599 But the good the good thing about him is he'll say that about himself. 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:26.640 I don't know anything. 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:27.439 That's what I love. 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:29.920 I love when guys who are brilliant act like they're not. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:30.239 Yeah. 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:33.359 Because it at least gives them a veil of humility. 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:33.920 Yeah. 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:35.040 Exactly. 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:36.480 They're fooling us. 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:36.959 Yeah. 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.439 Um, let's let's let's talk personal life a little bit since then. 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:43.519 Like what's been going on with you since the spring? 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:51.120 Catch the people up because there may be people who are kind of on the outside, or not on the outside, but maybe not in proximity to Orlando. 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:53.920 And this is the way that they keep up with what's going on at your church. 00:01:54.239 --> 00:02:04.079 Man, since spring, um I feel like I say it all the time, but before this audience, I guess it it it has relevance is coming out of the spring, we went into the summer and we went on sabbatical. 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:10.719 So that was a a really huge deal for for us personally, but as well as for our church, and it was just amazing. 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:19.039 So um went on an eight-week sabbatical, and it was just incredibly refreshing and just amazed at it's I'll say it this way, Nate. 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.639 It's amazing that when you do something that's God's idea, how it works. 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:23.120 Yes. 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:29.280 It's you know, I mean, sometimes we look at these things and it's like it's so radical and so extreme, but but but it's God's idea. 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.960 And so for us, it was amazing to see one, how refreshed we were, imagine that. 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:37.520 And then two, just how good the the church was and how we were able to lead through that. 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:38.800 So that's been the biggest thing. 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:41.360 I would say maybe not the biggest, but that was a big part. 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:44.960 The other thing is my my grandson was born. 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:45.360 Yes. 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.800 So now um we we are the grandparents of three. 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:51.199 So KP3, he's the first boy. 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.520 So I got him as my screensaver on my phone. 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:53.840 Yes. 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:56.479 Um, my granddaughters that saw that and they said, Where are their pictures? 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:58.400 I'm like, man, you guys had like a four-year run. 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.639 You guys have been on my phone for a long time. 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:01.919 Let's let him get it, let him get a year. 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:03.120 How'd that go over? 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:05.360 They're actually surprisingly rational. 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:05.680 Okay. 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:11.120 So um they they get it, but they but I I now can have like two screensavers, so I can switch it over. 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:14.000 So I'm not sure if that's manipulation or tricking, but you just gotta do what you gotta do. 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:15.039 No, no, no, you're on it. 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:15.439 You're on it. 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:16.800 I'm on here, right here. 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:17.280 I got you. 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:18.879 So so so there's that, man. 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:28.000 But other than that, just just living life and enjoying it, man, and just just grateful for the life I get to live, the people I get to live it with, and what I get to do, man. 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:29.280 It's just I'm just full of joy. 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.280 Yeah, I was thinking about that yesterday. 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:37.439 Um, just no matter if you're in ministry or not, just you know, just even the relationship with God. 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:40.800 Sometimes we just forget the simple joy and pleasure of man, thanks. 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:41.919 Thank you so much. 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:50.159 But um we are in our new season, like I said, of After the Message because we're uh in a brand new series called Grace to You. 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.759 Yeah, and we are looking at the book of Romans. 00:03:54.400 --> 00:04:16.240 Um, and you kind of mentioned, and you and I have talked off-air, if you will, uh, about how this letter from the Apostle Paul has impacted us personally, uh, thousands of years later, and how we both kind of have a history of this, but you mentioned it on Sunday, so I kind of want to ask you about it. 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:19.600 What what has Romans meant to you and your journey? 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:28.160 What was the what was kind of the beginning uh of your faith look through the through the lens of Romans, I guess you would say? 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.399 Well, um man, that's that's a great question, and I'll I'll try to keep it brief. 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:50.399 So um the church that I got like radically saved in, um, I guess I I don't know what the structure, you how you would define it, but the the the theological teaching was always looking at the the practical moves of God in the old testament and seeing it expressed in the new testament. 00:04:50.879 --> 00:05:03.759 And so um, so we would look at the Exodus narrative, which I talk about all the time, but that was how I was spiritually raised with watching and seeing, hey, the children of Israel, they were in Egypt, and then they were in the wilderness, and they were trying to get to the promised land. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.920 Um, and this was the hand of God through all of it. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:15.199 So that was kind of like the the undercurrent, and then you see these things fulfilled in Christ, and when Jesus went to the cross, that was the ultimate fulfillment of the sacrificial system. 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.639 So logically and spiritually, it all made sense. 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:20.560 So that was my my trajectory. 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:27.519 So I'll say my first year I was immersed in like old testament theology and the gospels and seeing how Jesus is the fulfillment of it. 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:31.600 But if if I can be honest, there were still parts of it that were fractured. 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:43.759 So what I think Romans did so brilliantly when I finally got to it, probably about a year into my walk with God, because I was reading the Exodus narrative and then reading the Gospels and whatever our pastor was preaching at the time. 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:53.519 But when I read when I read Romans, I feel like Romans does a brilliant job of connecting all the dots in a way that I guess the Apostle Paul is only equipped to do. 00:05:53.920 --> 00:06:04.079 Because with him being Jewish, um, but with him also being the Roman citizen, but also having this Greek wisdom, he was able to leverage all of these things and weave it all together. 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:10.959 And though it was written in antiquity, it had so much relevance today where I could see the the the the Jewish influence. 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:15.120 I could also see the Greek thinking influence, but I could also understand being part of a culture. 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:16.879 And so for me, it just clicked. 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:18.560 I it made sense to me. 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:34.160 No longer was my faith compartmentalized in isolation, but like I think Paul does a brilliant job of fulfilling um Old Testament stuff, how Christ fulfills it and brings it all together, but also how do you walk it out in a Roman, I guess, paganistic culture context? 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:36.240 Like it just hit all the boxes for me. 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.160 So it like it changed everything for me. 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:42.000 When you say it made sense for you, there's probably a lot of people listening. 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:44.800 Well, when I read the Bible, it doesn't make sense to me, you know. 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.519 And so can you attribute that to anything? 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.839 Is it just is it perseverance? 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.560 Is it a partnership with the Holy Spirit? 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.879 You know, there's several elements I think that go into play with things clicking. 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:57.120 Yeah. 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:05.600 And and I think the beauty of it is you never really arrive to where, all right, I got the Bible figured out, you know, and that's that's the great part of our walk with Christ. 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:11.279 But but when you say that, help someone who is like, man, this isn't clicking. 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:11.839 Yeah. 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.560 Man, I think so there's there's a couple of things. 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:26.319 Um one, it is perseverance, it's it's absolutely understanding that, yeah, we're it's this is not um something that you're going to read and you're gonna understand it immediately. 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:31.439 Like you you and especially to have a healthy interpretation of scripture, it it takes it takes a while. 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:33.920 So one, it certainly takes perseverance. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.079 It also takes like having the right tools. 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:49.279 Um because I think in my the beginning stages of my faith, and and I and I persevere through it, but I wish I had the resources then that's available now, is that I I exclusively read from the King James translation. 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.079 Not even a new King James, Nate, like King James. 00:07:52.240 --> 00:08:09.920 Um and and that's okay, that was what our culture used, and you just so there's so many things that like we just don't talk that way, and you didn't understand it, and and so you're forcing yourself to fit into a box that's kind of written in the 1600s, and you're trying yourself to what does that mean in our current context, and what do these thuss and thaws mean? 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:17.120 And sometimes those things get lost in translation, so you have to have the right supporting tools to at least understand what's trying to be said. 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:18.959 So I had a good study Bible. 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:24.879 Um, but then honestly, having a a mature community around me was the was a big part. 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:43.919 Um, because and and I've shared this before, not only having friends who had different beliefs that kind of challenged me, that was um part of the motivation for me really wanting to like not just say, Hey, I'm a follower of Christ, I don't understand why, but I felt like I needed to be able to not only defend it, but I also wanted to be able to encourage my friends that I felt were away from it. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:46.879 So I felt that gave me an extra level of tenacity. 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:58.480 Um, but then two, I would take questions to people who had been walking with God for years, primarily my pastor at the time, and and and so that relationship helped me to stay inspired. 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.360 Um, I would literally read every passage of scripture our pastor would reference on Sundays. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:09.519 I would go back and reread them so I can understand it for myself and not just like highlight it in my Bible and never go back to it. 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:10.879 So those things played a part. 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:16.879 But if but if we're real, those were like fragmented thoughts and fragmented concepts about God. 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:24.799 So, you know, you go to church and a lot of times you're you're jumping onto a a highway that's already got cars on it that's already in motion. 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:31.440 And so the on-ramps are meant to allow anyone to get on, but a lot of times you're you're catching up with the momentum that's already there. 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.679 So you hear a per a pastor preach a certain message and it's like, okay, yeah, that that makes sense. 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:36.080 I like it. 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:41.600 I'm leaving inspired, but I don't know where that fits into the overall theological concept of who God is. 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.960 And so you're in you're inspired, you're motivated, you're encouraged, but you don't know where it all fits. 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:51.039 Romans to me was the thing that made it all fit together. 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:52.960 So yet that helped me. 00:09:53.039 --> 00:10:02.960 And so community, um, good study Bible, started getting some commentaries that kind of help support that, and um, and just having conversations with my pastor and just like, man, that helped me to understand this. 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:03.200 Yeah. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:05.360 Um, and that was that was a game changer for me. 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:34.000 You mentioned it a few times, and so I definitely want to talk about it, is the and I don't think that we're talking about it within the church itself, but a lot of things that contributed, obviously the advancement of technology, the way we're all connected, uh, 2020, obviously, with the pandemic and and making or you know, kind of forcing our hand to go online and stuff, which was a lot of we learned a lot of great things out of that, and there was a lot of good fruit that came from it, um, to use the Bible term. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:42.960 But what what is the role, I guess, of the the local pastor, and and you also mentioned resources, right? 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:50.399 So when we grew up, whoever whatever church we were a part of, that was our spiritual authority, you know, we looked at that person. 00:10:50.559 --> 00:11:01.759 Now we can hear so many different voices, and I think that there's a lot of people who who can get confused, or there's a lot of people who um sometimes they don't know where to turn. 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:02.639 Do you get what I'm saying? 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:04.399 Do you get where I'm going with this, Pastor Keith? 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:16.159 Is is what do you think is a proper uh view of the local pastor versus being able to listen to somebody out west that you may not have the opportunity to visit on a Sunday? 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.519 Man, I think um that's that's a a great question. 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:33.679 And I think 2020 certainly has caused a lot of people to recalibrate and ask that question, but I think the I think the answer is is found in the model that Christ has given us and and what scripture tells us. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.919 So pastoring is always referred to as shepherding. 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:40.080 It's always referred to the to that. 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:52.480 And so um without going into a a litany of the varying responsibilities of a shepherd, but ultimately we know it's to guide, um, to protect, and to ultimately to to lead. 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.240 So you just know like your your job as a shepherd is to do those things. 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:08.879 And so when you use the shepherding as the context in which we are looking at all of this, and we kind of like use our modern language, you understand that um a a shepherd or a pastor is guiding God's people. 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.519 Um I'm I'm I'm guiding us in the direction in the in the ways of God. 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:14.480 That's part one. 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:24.799 Protecting, that means that we're we're we're trying to create equipping, because when Paul talks about the equipping of the saints, it's it's equipping us for something that could be standing against us. 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:27.600 Um so you understand that that's a a a role in it as well. 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:29.360 And then ultimately feeding the sheep. 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:42.639 And so I think what I look to my primary responsibility is man, I I need to I need to lead us, I need to protect us, I need to make sure that that we're that we're adequately being developed with the things that God has for us. 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:55.519 And what I believe is so important with a a local pastor is in that also is correction, in that is encouragement, in that is walking through the most difficult seasons, but walking and celebrating the most high ones. 00:12:55.840 --> 00:13:10.159 Where I feel that our current culture, because of the access of information, which I absolutely love, is we don't get the relational connection, and unfortunately, that relate the lack of relational connection also means there's a lack of accountability. 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:19.039 And then that means that we end up becoming people who are great at pursuing the things that we want to pursue and walking away from the things that makes us uncomfortable. 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:29.519 Because if I listen to a podcast, at the end of the day, I can take what I like and there's no one to challenge me on things that I actually need to deal with, things that I may be running away from. 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:38.000 And so I believe what happens when you're part of a community is that it allows you to not only be part of something that's bigger than you, but it actually allows you to be challenged. 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:42.960 It allows you to have people that have been on your journey and say, like, you know what, I recognize that you are easily offended. 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.159 Like, let's walk through this together instead of I'm offended and I'm walking away. 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:55.360 But when you're connected to a pastor but to a local community, I believe that there's more fruit in your growth because it forces you to walk through it. 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.919 And honestly, that was the context of the church. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.519 Like there wasn't churches on every corner, and I'm grateful that we have so many options. 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:01.840 Yeah. 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.799 But I think unfortunately, we can turn into consumer Christians. 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:11.200 And as a consumer, if I go to a store and and they don't treat me right or if there's something that I'm not feeling, I move on to the next. 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:12.720 Rightfully so, it's my money. 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:17.679 But when we approach God and the house of God that way, we actually don't work through the things. 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:24.159 We don't one learn how to function with unity, and then two, we don't learn how to get over things, and we just end up carrying a fence. 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.399 But in the early church, they didn't have churches on every corner. 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:29.279 So it was like a process that we need to figure this out. 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:29.600 Yeah. 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:43.519 We're gonna work through this, and so I believe that uh the shepherd's job is to make sure that if we can stay together, we can grow together, we can challenge each other, we're gonna step on each other's toes, but we're gonna figure this thing out all together in community, and I believe that's the way that God had intended it. 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:44.000 Yeah. 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:50.879 You mentioned the early church, and we talked about it briefly on Sunday, but but who is the Apostle Paul writing to? 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.039 Why is he writing to them? 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:59.120 Um and and what's kind of the and this is the longest of his letters, right? 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:04.480 Um, and so why the extensiveness of what he's writing in that situation? 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:09.039 Yeah, that's I wish I had time to get into it on Sunday, and it'll probably leak through a different thing. 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:09.840 That's why we have this, man. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:10.720 That's what this is why we're gonna do it. 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:12.240 Tune in after the message, right? 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:13.519 You get what you don't get on Sunday. 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:14.480 You know what I need to do? 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:20.480 I need to do like point one and point two and a half, and then say, like, hey, on Thursday, point three's dropping. 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:22.399 Like, yeah, that'll be something we're gonna do. 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:23.440 So maybe we'll shift to that. 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:23.759 Okay. 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:30.159 Um so with the Apostle Paul, of course, like the I mentioned earlier that he is uh he he was a Jewish man. 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:37.200 Um he was a Pharisee, which uh which was a a priestly um sect within Judaism. 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.879 They are the ones who s like consistently went over the word of God. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:43.759 They're those ones who were really, really devoted to God's word. 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.480 They were measuring everything in culture according to God's word. 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.240 So they were that group of people. 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.480 They were some of Jesus' most harshest critics. 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:51.679 So he came from that family. 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:52.639 He was raised in that. 00:15:52.720 --> 00:16:08.879 And so um literally part of their the way that they would like graduate into adulthood, which we would refer to in our current context is like a bar mitzvah, is like that wasn't just a s a milestone you hit with age, it was a requirement that you had to memorize the the law. 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:12.480 That's like the first five books of the Bible, as well as many of the Psalms as well. 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:14.960 So this brother was smart, he was sharp. 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:28.480 Um, and then he went into the pipeline because what typically would happen in that culture is if you didn't have quote unquote what it takes to kind of get into the the the the school of thought with religion, then you just kind of learned a trade. 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:34.799 So Paul was in the pipeline, he was a Pharisee of Pharisees, learned under some of the top um Pharisee teachers. 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:38.240 So he was this guy who understood God's word profoundly. 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:48.480 So then um of course Jesus comes on the scene and Jesus is doing his thing and all these Pharisees are trying to measure whether Jesus is the Messiah according to their understanding of scripture. 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.879 So we don't see Paul really emerge onto the scene until after Christ is gone. 00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:00.559 The church has now been birthed, and so now Paul is standing against the against the the way as it was called back then, but the Christians what we refer to now. 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.319 He was opposing it because it didn't measure in his understanding. 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.759 He has this radical encounter with God, rode to Damascus. 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:20.640 You can read about it in the book of Acts, but it was a moment where Christ revealed himself to him, and I think a lot of times we refer to Paul, we c we refer to like um that that story as Paul's conversion. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.480 I believe if you were to have a conversation with Paul, you wouldn't he would not call it a conversion. 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:28.799 He wouldn't say that I converted to Christianity. 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.279 What he recognizes that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:35.279 He would have looked at it as a graduation or the fulfillment of what he already believed. 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:35.839 An upgrade. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:36.640 Come on, Nate. 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:42.000 Um he would have looked at it as that instead of like a a conversion experience as we probably would define it. 00:17:42.240 --> 00:18:12.160 So now that he's got this, God in his infinite wisdom was using all of Paul's previous experiences, his tenacity, his understanding of the law, his understanding of Rome because he was a Roman citizen, but also because he was fluent in Greek culture and Greek thinking, God was using all of those previous experiences and said, Okay, now I want to use you and all the things you've accumulated, but now empowered by my spirit and with the vision of the church, and I want to release you out to go and now reach the very environments um that you once used to avoid. 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.480 So now Paul has been inspired by the Holy Spirit and has all this wisdom. 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:25.839 So when he says, um, I'm all things to all men, like he's literally saying, if I'm talking to a Jewish guy, I could speak the things of God to him in the language of Jew. 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:34.640 If I'm talking to a Greek guy who doesn't believe in the Roman pantheon or doesn't believe in Yahweh, I can speak to him off of Greek thinking and philosophy. 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.599 So he weaves in philosophical ideas in his writings. 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:43.440 And if I'm talking to a Roman guy, he understands order, authority, and Caesar, so I can speak that language. 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:44.640 Paul was brilliant. 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:56.720 So Paul, up to this point, after he has this encounter and he faces a great deal of persecution, he he knows that God has empowered him and graced him to reach the Gentiles, but also to reach the Jews as well. 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.319 So he feels a responsibility, which we'll find in the book of Romans. 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:05.279 He says in the first chapter, it's his obligation, he feels obligated to go out. 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:12.880 Like it's like God has been so good to me, and what I am experiencing, I feel an obligation to my fellow man for them to experience this as well. 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.079 So he's motivated by it. 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.559 But for Paul, this is his sixth letter. 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.119 So he's written five letters before that. 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:24.640 And what we find with the Apostle Paul, and which I love so much, NT Wright has a book called Um Paul. 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:25.839 Phenomenal book. 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:33.119 But what it does is it's that book does a great job at showing Paul's theological evolution. 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:42.400 It shows that when Paul's early writings and he's figuring out how to address things with the Thessalonian church, how does he address things with the Galatian church? 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:46.319 Honestly, it's the same message spoken to a different environment. 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.920 And so you could see that he's working through the way that he wants to communicate it. 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:55.279 By the time he gets to writing to the Roman church, he knows exactly how he wants to say things. 00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:00.480 So now he's writing with very clear understanding of the grace of God. 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:05.599 He addresses the the um Judaism, he expresses how Jesus is a fulfillment. 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:31.920 Like so the reason why I think it's Paul's longest writing is because he's taking those previous five books that he's written up to this point, his experiences, and he's saying, Okay, I want to lay out an argument on the righteousness of God, the the presence of sin, which is why the right why Jesus sacrifice was necessary, the undergirding of grace in all of this, um, but also a witness also to my Jewish brothers and sisters, but also letting them know about Christian conduct. 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:38.720 He literally takes all of these experiences with the different churches and all his experiences and puts it all into the book of Romans. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:44.799 So that's my very long answer as to who Paul was writing to, why he was writing it, and what he was inspired by. 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.200 It's like his masterpiece, is what you're basically saying. 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:48.000 Exactly. 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:48.480 Yes. 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:56.319 And a lot of people would refer to this as um the most theologically systematic and sound. 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:01.440 So, you know, systematic theology is a um a study of theology. 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:04.160 Is is that important, A? 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.160 Like is theology important? 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:24.960 And if so, to the common man, you know, and not in a derogatory term, but just anybody that is not necessarily in vocational ministry, if you will, and to what level of importance is it, and um how does it applicable to to their lives? 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:25.519 Yeah. 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:27.279 Absolutely, I do it, I believe it is. 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:27.680 Okay. 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:34.960 Um, so theology, a simple definition would be it's it's how we think of God or the way we think of God. 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:40.160 That's what theology basically is, are the the mechanisms or the methodology of how we think about God. 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:46.079 The reason why I think it's important is because the way that we see God determines how we approach Him. 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:53.680 And how we approach Him determines how we basically expect to see Him move through us as well as through culture. 00:21:53.839 --> 00:22:17.759 So case in point being this Um if I think that God is a God of Wrath, anger, judgment, then I'm going to approach him in such a way that not a healthy fear that the Bible describes as reverence, but a a fear of not wanting to approach him at all, maybe fearing that my sins are still before me and I don't want to interact with God much at all. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:32.880 But when my theology show tells me that no, I can go boldly before the throne of grace and I can get help in my times of need, now I can know that I can approach God knowing that I'm weak, but knowing that I'm going to experience his love because of the way that I think about God. 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:43.440 So I think it's important for even the common person to have a healthy way that we think about God so that we can have a healthy way that we can approach God so that we can actually receive what God wants to do through us. 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:44.000 Yeah. 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:49.920 You mentioned also that this is used to uh by students of law. 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:51.039 Is that is that correct? 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:53.119 What what what do they use this for? 00:22:53.440 --> 00:23:01.119 So um this was I I read this in another commentary, and I have it in my notes, so if anybody wants to ask me like my reference for it, I can share it with them. 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:02.720 Um, but off the top of my head, I don't have it. 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:23.279 But in one of the commentaries I was reading, where um because it's so systematic in the way that he approaches it, that secular professors have examined it and said, this is a brilliant way um to look at what it means to make an argument and then to anticipate the rebuttals to the arguments and the way that Paul responds to it. 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:36.799 So literally, and so when I was reading it through that lens and I was reading over Romans again, you can see that whenever Paul introduces a new thought, he supports that thought as if he's already responding to the people who would challenge the thought. 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:37.279 Got it. 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:48.799 So literally for people that were in practicing law, and again, I don't remember which schools that were using it, they were saying, like, so this is how you introduce a thought, and then you take away the argument of the other people before they even get a chance to make it. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:54.079 It's like when you're uh having a um, what would you call it? 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:58.240 A you know, a little bit of a feisty discussion with your wife. 00:23:58.640 --> 00:23:59.680 I knew you were gonna say that. 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.559 Yes, exactly. 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:06.799 That's exactly what Caleb used to call it back with um Megan and I when he was younger, he would call it fight talking. 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.799 He said, You and mine were fight talking. 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:10.480 I'm like, man, is that is that how he sees it? 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:13.279 So yes, spirited debate, discussion, or fight talk. 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:13.839 Yes. 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:14.720 Yeah. 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:30.720 Um The series is called uh Grace to You, and uh Grace is for whatever reason one of the most uh loaded words that we have, especially in in our modern context of trying to understand what it all means. 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:42.160 And uh you touched kind of on the definition on Sunday and stuff, but I guess I want to start with why why do you think there are so many there are so many different interpretations of grace? 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:51.519 Like how have we not collectively landed on it, you know, because you you'll hear you'll hear varying degrees of what it is from from different people. 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.400 Man, you know, I think oddly it comes back to your earlier question, which is our theology. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:05.440 Um I believe the reason why there's such a a broad range of interpretations of grace is because there's such a broad range of our theology as it relates to God. 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:10.000 So grace is this overflow of the goodness of God. 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.000 It's it's when God gives us something that we absolutely don't deserve. 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:19.759 So so mercy is not getting what you deserve, grace is getting something you don't deserve. 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:21.599 So there's a there's a distinction there. 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.359 So it's like God giving you his best, even though we deserved his worst. 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.519 So grace and mercy are working in hand in hand. 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:43.440 Um but unfortunately, if I have a a theological mindset that God's grace isn't for me, then I will believe that God's grace is only available to certain people, or I could have a mindset that says, because God's grace is for me, then it doesn't require anything of me. 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:55.279 And so what I think Paul does in this letter is he shows that God's grace is for us, but it also is in us, it works through us, and then it comes out of us, meaning, yes, the as Paul would say, and we'll talk about this later in the series. 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:57.920 Shall I continue in sin so that grace can abound? 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:00.000 God forbid, absolutely not. 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:05.759 Grace is not a covering of our sins only, it's it's actually giving us deliverance from sin as well. 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:11.839 So grace in all of its many forms is not just one thing, it's it's all the things. 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:13.680 Yes, it's part of God choosing us. 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:17.519 Yes, it's it's Christ being extended to us, but it also is meant to change us. 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:19.599 So grace is literally meant to transform us. 00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:26.880 You you mentioned the you can your your three points there, you know, new status, new family, new future. 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:35.200 My first question is were you really trying to search for a word that began with F for point number one and be honest? 00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:36.160 Um I did. 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:36.960 Yes, I did. 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.680 And and then if it was my earlier days, I would have spent days mulling over it. 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.400 And I may have even changed my points if I couldn't have found it. 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:49.839 But you know, Nate, you know, after you've been doing this thing as long as I am, I'm like, you know what? 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:50.799 It's gonna be fine. 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:51.680 I gotta get some sleep. 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.720 So we're gonna get to the point and we're gonna move on from it. 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:59.200 So uh let's talk about that first point. 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:00.559 New status, right? 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:07.119 Yeah, uh we we have a a new status which would, you know, theologically speaking, we would call it justification. 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:09.440 Can you can you touch on justification a little bit? 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:10.160 Absolutely. 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.759 So um, gosh, man, this this is we got time. 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.240 Okay, so I was gonna say like this is this is this is weighty. 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:16.880 So we got time. 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:24.799 You know, ultimately, kind of like what we shared in the message that we we've inherited our sin nature from the original sin, Adam and Eve. 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:34.319 So I won't get into all the the the nuances of that, but we we were born into this status of being sinners, born into a sinful world, broken. 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:39.119 It's just the reality of what we inherited by nature of us coming after Adam and Eve's first sin. 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:42.640 Um so we are not justified before God. 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:50.720 That means that every negative sin that is connected to us in our minds, our thoughts, our behavior, it's still with us. 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:59.039 So to be justified, uh there's a there's a cliche Christian pastor statement that says it's justified, never sinned. 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:01.039 So, so I never heard that. 00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:01.759 You never heard that? 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:02.079 No. 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:02.720 Are you kidding me? 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:03.519 That's pretty good. 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:04.559 I should have said it then. 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:06.319 I don't I shouldn't have given anybody credit for it. 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:10.000 Like, man, I was praying about this and the Lord put this in my spirit, and then people would have called me out. 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:11.920 Like I heard my pastor say it 30 years ago. 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:13.920 Um, but it's like justified, never sinned. 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.480 So it's almost like just totally brand new. 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:25.279 Like, let's say you get a a a car that you got off of the junkyard lot and you worked on it, and you worked on it, and now it looks brand new. 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:26.799 It's restored completely. 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:31.119 Well, that's ultimately what grace to us has done through the work of Christ. 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:37.119 It's taken us in our most broken condition and it's justified us, it's put us in right standing with God. 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:45.279 So now when God sees us, he no longer sees us with our sin first, as scripture would define it as our sin goes before us. 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:50.400 What he sees us is through the lens of the blood of Jesus first, which means that our sins are no longer before us. 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.480 So when God sees us, he sees us as justified, just as if we never sinned. 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:56.240 Yeah, that's good. 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.680 Um and let's talk about the new family part of that. 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:10.640 Like, you know, there's even you mentioned on Sunday there could be uh mixed reviews, if you will, on that word family or you know, different experiences with that. 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:13.359 Why why should I be in God's family? 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:14.799 Why is it important for me? 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:16.720 And what exactly does that look like? 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:17.440 Yeah. 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:24.160 Um so you know, in in scripture you you would see that they're referred to as brothers and sisters. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:32.960 And um, and and even in Paul's writing, all the apostles at some point refer to this, even Jesus introduces this idea of us being children of God. 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:43.279 So from a from a Pharisee's theological concept, they they never viewed individuals as being the children of God. 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.880 They saw the whole nation of Israel as being the children of God. 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:53.359 So when Jesus comes on the scene and he starts saying, like, me and my father, they were already like, hey man, that like we don't say stuff like that. 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.640 You're making that way too personal, and that is not the way that that God operates. 00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:58.240 They wanted to stone him for saying that. 00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:02.960 But but Jesus was introducing this idea to us that man, like, God is our father. 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:11.599 And and it's not just something that's collectively connected only to the Israel nation, but and we need to take personal ownership of our relationship with God. 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:16.160 And actually, Paul talks about this in the book of Romans, which we'll get into that in later weeks. 00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:18.559 Um, but he talks about this whole family dynamic. 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:26.960 So if God is my father and I'm not his only child, then that means I have siblings, and as Paul would say, um, we have we're co-heirs with Christ. 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.880 That means that I have brothers and sisters. 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:34.640 And so now I understand that not only is God my father, but God he he's Nate's father as well. 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:41.119 And when I recognize that that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for you, Nate. 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:54.240 That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for me, then I recognize that that God saw enough value in you that he went to the cross Christ did, knowing, knowing every mistake you would make, but yet he still did it anyway. 00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:55.200 Same thing for me. 00:30:55.680 --> 00:31:03.279 So if God has value in you and he calls you his son, then I need to have value in you because you're my brother in Christ. 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:16.880 So I think the reason why having this family language is important is even though it may have baggage for some of us, I think like so many other things, God is trying to redefine and bring us back to his pure intent of what family is supposed to be. 00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:26.799 And family is, yes, we may have differences, we may have conflict, we may have challenges, but we're united in Christ and we work through these things instead of standing on the opposite side of these things. 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.440 That's the that's the that's the behavior of the enemy. 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:34.079 The enemy wants to keep us divided, the enemy wants to keep us um at one another's throats. 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.920 Again, it doesn't mean that unity means uniformity. 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:42.240 It simply means that we're united even in our differences, and that's what I believe family is supposed to be. 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:44.240 My children are different than me, but we're unified. 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:44.559 Yeah. 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:52.400 And I think that's why that language is so important, because actually in family, there's something bigger than us that connects us, but we're ac we're also still different. 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:58.160 That's why I think family is supposed to be such a crucial part of the way that we understand what it means to be part of the family of God. 00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:00.000 Yeah, and a beautiful thing as well. 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:02.880 Finally, the last one was a new future. 00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:03.200 Yeah. 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:10.640 And and oftentimes we think uh, you know, the word kind of lends itself to thinking um way down the road. 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:11.279 Yeah, right. 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:11.759 Yeah. 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.039 What can a new future mean for me right now? 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:15.440 Yeah. 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:16.319 Does that make sense? 00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:17.039 Absolutely. 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.920 I think um it's meant to inspire hope. 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:24.960 So Paul's context and our context is we can lose hope. 00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:26.240