WEBVTT 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:05.120 Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast. 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:06.879 Thank you so much for listening today. 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:09.519 We hope it encourages you and inspires you. 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:11.039 Here's today's message. 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:12.080 There it is. 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:13.039 What's good? 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:14.320 What's going on, my friend? 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:14.720 How are you? 00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:15.519 What's up? 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:15.839 What's up? 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:16.719 How you doing, brother? 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:17.519 Doing good, man. 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:18.399 Come on Monday night. 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:24.239 We uh get everybody everybody fed, and now we're getting everybody through the bath situation, get everybody into bed. 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.920 What's bedtime in the dolls' household for the young dolls? 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:30.800 Alright, so the best it's it's a it's just straight across the board. 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:32.880 We're we're we're no respecter of persons. 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:41.439 And so we uh we got some really good advice, I think, early on, and that was uh have an early bedtime for your kids. 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:45.439 Um so you get to just be grown for a little while. 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:47.840 And uh so we we did that. 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.240 And so we've always had a pretty early bedtime. 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:54.320 So honestly, it's usually around in between 8 and 8:30. 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:55.119 Okay. 00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:01.439 Um, if I'm honest, Nicole is a lot Nicole has a lot more latitude in that than I do. 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:04.799 Nicole, Nicole can be bam, she can be bamboozled. 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:06.799 Um let's just call it what it is. 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:12.319 The kids are like thirsty, yes, reading me a story. 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:14.560 They're delayed, they're delaying it for sure. 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:16.319 Annoying me with oil. 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:17.920 It's all it's all amazing. 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.719 And so they're never more spiritual than when it's bedtime. 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:25.680 So we'll start at eight. 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:26.159 This is true. 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:32.079 So if Nicole's like quarterbacking bedtime for that evening, we will start at 8. 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:32.480 Uh-huh. 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.439 And those kids will be in bed by like 9, 9.15. 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.200 Because it just it lingers. 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:38.319 Mom, I want to hug. 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:42.159 I mean, if you watch it and you're like, this is the biggest hustle. 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:43.280 You see it. 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:45.599 Oh, just see it a mile away. 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:52.480 But if I'm on, if I'm on track, we're starting bedtime at 7.50 because you're in bed by 8, 8.05. 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:53.200 Okay. 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:55.439 Um, and so yeah, it's just it's just true. 00:01:55.599 --> 00:02:04.719 Now, what hurts us is because I mean you know this because you lived up here in the summertime, it doesn't get dark till almost 9 o'clock, right? 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:05.680 Yeah, it's daily. 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:11.759 So trying to convince kids that one, summertime, you still gotta go to bed early. 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:16.319 And then two, when it's like bright, that's tough. 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:20.319 Um, you you you uphold the rules even in the summer. 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:24.639 Well, yeah, I mean I haven't left. 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:26.080 Like, you know what I'm saying? 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:29.599 Like, because it's summer, your freedom should encroach upon my freedom. 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:31.360 I mean, we're that's part of the conversation tonight. 00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:33.280 It's nothing, it has very little to do with them. 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:34.719 It's like the freedom that you need. 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:50.960 So but I also had this conversation the other day with someone that because of Caden's age, Caden's about to turn 11, yeah, that we might need to start extending this for him, which I get that we might be getting to that place. 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.840 Um, so it'll be an interesting territory. 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.240 I think we're gonna be moving to different bedtime soon, you know, that sort of thing. 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:05.759 But it's yeah, the whoever came up with daylight savings time, uh, I've seen I've seen my boy Franklin saying it. 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.159 Whoever, whoever came with daylight savings time, that was a hustle. 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:09.599 Like they didn't have kids either. 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.120 Yeah, it just they didn't have children and they don't know what they're talking about. 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.840 They don't they don't care, they don't care nothing about none of that. 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:21.759 So we're still we're still how's the uh how's the pimp household? 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:23.840 Pippin household is is good. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:27.360 We have our we have our beautiful granddaughters here with us this week. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.879 So um I'm kind of in the same space that you're in. 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:33.520 Um but I have a two-year-old and a three-year-old. 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:35.120 Um they're your grandkids. 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.840 I mean, that's but they're yeah, yeah, it's it's different. 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.960 So for me, like it's it's like I'm not used to like managing it like 24 hours a day. 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:49.039 So like just trying to like deal with like the emotions, the meltdowns, the the joyous moments, the non-stop energy. 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:51.439 Like we've been we've been removed from that a long time. 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:53.360 Caleb is 16, he's our youngest. 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:54.960 So we've been so removed from that. 00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:59.599 I'm like, I don't know how we ever raised kids because this is a lot of work, like it's it's a lot. 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:03.680 So I commend all the all the ones for the people. 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:05.199 They don't they don't realize. 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:18.319 Yeah, it's well what happened in an evening of passion has uh has resulted in a lifetime of servitude, and so it's indeed it's real out here in these streets, and it only gets more expensive. 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.639 So I just I just want to prepare your heart for that now. 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:24.720 No, so I was gonna ask you, what's the like for you as a grandparent? 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:32.480 What what's the thing that you used to be strict on as a parent, and now as a grandparent, it's not your problem? 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:34.720 Pretty much everything. 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:41.040 Like, I mean, like, I know that's like such a vague answer, but yet it's very specific at the same time. 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:43.120 I don't care about nothing. 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:50.480 Like, I remember when we first started like watching the girls, and like we were all living in the same city, they were like, Okay, so the girls go to sleep at like seven o'clock. 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:51.920 I'm like, yeah, for you. 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:53.680 Like every answer was like, yeah, for you. 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:54.959 Like, we don't feed them any candy. 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:56.000 Like, yeah, you don't. 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:58.000 Like, for like, I don't, I don't have to deal with any. 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.519 You can't be restricted by these by these rules. 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:02.720 Yeah, I refuse to. 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:04.480 Like I said, like that's that's your thing. 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:05.920 And and Megan would do the good job. 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:07.120 Okay, we're gonna we're gonna honor that. 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.319 I'm like, Meg, like, I'm gonna do the best I can, but um, but I'm really not. 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:17.680 Like, it's just gonna be like they're with us, we're gonna spoil them, they're gonna sleep in a bed with us, and then let my kid, let Keith Junior and Katrina figure it out when the kids get back. 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:22.560 We may undo weeks of strong discipline and training, but I don't care because you know what? 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.240 Keith's cost me a lot of money. 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:29.279 So at the end of the day, if this is how I get paid back, then deal with it. 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:30.879 I'm sorry, that might be wrong. 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:34.720 Hey, I mean, listen, I'm I'm gonna learn from you. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.879 So one of these days, these kids again, it's I'm gonna keep it till. 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:40.480 Yeah, because that's on point. 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:41.759 We're balancing this budget. 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:42.560 Oh, for sure. 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:44.399 There's I got a running tab, man. 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.720 I got an Excel spreadsheet that breaks down all costs. 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:48.319 I got received everything. 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:51.279 I would hate, I would hate for my dad to even begin that conversation. 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:52.240 Like, I don't even want to. 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:56.160 And because here's like knowing my dad, what my dad would do is he would adjust it for inflation. 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:02.000 Like he would on the fly, be like, oh, that then equals this today, and and math would be or not. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:05.600 Your dad, I can see that words. 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:06.879 Welcome to my childhood. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.319 That's what that's what my life was. 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:08.959 He was that. 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:09.839 I feel you. 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:10.560 I'm with you, brother. 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:11.040 I'm with you. 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:12.399 I'm grateful for it, though. 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:18.879 Indeed, but we're uh we're here, uh, kind of second time uh kind of at this. 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:30.160 Um, and I know you and I, we we you know we chatted kind of as we did this last time, and we really felt like and we kind of shared, you know, how this really is is kind of birthed out of our friendship. 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:40.800 Um I think you and I both feel very, very strongly that we're not having um conversations in a public forum that we haven't had in a private forum. 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:45.120 And so I I'm a I'm a strong conviction um for me in this. 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:52.319 I can't speak for anybody else, but a strong conviction for me is uh you don't get to you don't get to do public what you haven't done in private. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:57.360 And so for us, this is um, these are the conversations that we've been having for years. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:08.480 And um now I think it is at a place where it's I think it's responsible for us to have these conversations um in a setting where we we can bring other people into the table. 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:11.759 Um it's not the most discussion-based. 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:16.480 I know people are gonna be in the comments and um and they're gonna be able to interact a little bit. 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:20.720 It's not the same as if we were all at the same table, all having a conversation. 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:37.120 Um, but again, our hope is is just to allow people really to put an ear in um on two friends, on two husbands, on two fathers, um, a grandfather, and and then we're also pastors. 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:45.279 And and and talking about uh, you know, we we kind of labeled this kind of race in America, and we realized that that can mean a lot of things. 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:53.360 Um but Keith, when we talked about, you know, when we did this last time, it was right on the heels uh of Ahmad Arguer. 00:07:53.839 --> 00:08:01.920 And and you and I, we talked about how we were going to kind of follow this up and how we wanted to kind of do this in more of a routine and rhythm. 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.879 Um, but but can you talk about what we didn't expect to happen um so close? 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.079 And you know, here we are on the heels of kind of something else. 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:11.360 Yeah, I mean indeed. 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:22.079 Like so for us, and and again, the people that are that are on, some are probably part of our our bearing communities, whether it be it um like Metro or DC or here um in Orlando and probably other friends that are around us. 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:36.879 Um, but but people that know us, and I think we have a lot of similarities in our personality, um, at no point are we ever looking to like draw attention to ourselves or or like foster and create manufacture conversations for the sake of like, man, we got to maximize the moment. 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:40.240 So for us, it's really like, man, we've we've had these discussions over years. 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:45.200 We're trying our best to learn how to grow together, bringing people along on the journey. 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:59.440 So for us, even after the first um conversation we had, and we saw a little bit of the reaction and engagement, and really began to be like, okay, so this was helpful for you and I as friends, but I truly believe, and you probably would agree to this, that it was helpful for people that attend both of our churches. 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:04.399 We I've had people come to me and say, like, hey, this gave me some tools to continue the conversation. 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:06.320 And so that was the heart behind it. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:09.039 So we have we had then said, man, we gotta run it back. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:23.759 Like we can show text message thread, like, hey, we gotta figure out a way to do this, um, without ever assuming or ever thinking that we would find ourselves dealing with another, another crisis, another thing of this magnitude that almost is like forcing us to come back into this dialogue, man. 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:32.240 So I think it's it's it's heartbreaking that it that it's brought that it's kind of accelerated or maybe provided a little bit of structure for where we're going. 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:37.200 But but nonetheless, man, we're gonna we're gonna lean into it because again, this is a part of a journey that we've been on, man. 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:48.639 So what I what I want to do, man, is I I just want to I just want to jump in um because I think for for me, once, once we we saw this this horrific incident, and I think you know, we'll we'll address the elephant in the room. 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:54.240 This this horrific incident with with George Floyd and seeing that the the outpouring of it. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:03.679 I found out about it, my son Caleb came downstairs and he said, Dad, like, you know, uh another African American, unarmed African-American, um, was killed um by cops. 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:04.720 That was like what he said. 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:11.519 Like, and he just like, and so Caleb is now getting to that age where he's aware of these things, he's he's he's kind of woke to these things a little bit. 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:12.799 We have conversations about it. 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.039 So he came down, I'm like, man, really? 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.320 And so I didn't understand, I didn't know the video context. 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:24.159 Um, and and maybe that's just a part of me being numb or whatever, just used to seeing these things on a repeated pattern. 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.240 I'm like, okay, so what happened? 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.159 Um, was he resisting arrest? 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:32.960 Like you begin to run through the litany of excuses that you've heard all your life that people will always do. 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.559 Yeah, what are the what are the permissibles and what are the permissible scenarios? 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:38.399 Yeah, what are these other variables? 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:46.240 So before I invest my emotions into reacting to this, let me see if this was a just shooting, because they they do exist. 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:51.840 Um so once I saw that, um, then it it hit me in a way that it hadn't hit me before. 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:58.240 Like I'd never like I've never felt a weightiness or a heaviness like that, even in spite of all that I seen. 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:02.639 But what really triggered it for me, and I really want to ask you, um, is when you called me. 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:09.440 I'm not sure if we texted first um about it, but I know at some point, some we were you you had called me, you're FaceTiming. 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.360 And so I'm I'm sitting in my on my couch, the exact same spot, but I'm sitting there when you called me. 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.919 And so, you know, I've I got family around, we're talking all that stuff, and and I say, Oh, Charlie's FaceTime. 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:27.039 I pick up the phone, and what I see is you sitting on your back deck, and your eye, your eyes are they're red, like you you are you are flush. 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:31.840 And and I didn't immediately make the correlation at first, but then I said, Hey man, what's going on? 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:34.240 And you said you said, Keith, I'm not okay. 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:36.159 And like, in and and you're in tears. 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:41.759 I hope I'm not giving up too much on behind the curtain information on you, but you like Keith, I'm I'm not okay. 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:53.600 And you're and you're there and you're fighting back tears and you're and you begin to cry, and I realize like this is a this is a moment of of soberness that you're feeling, um, and that you're really carrying the weight and the burden um for others. 00:11:53.759 --> 00:12:01.120 So I just want to ask you, man, because I think that for for so many others um that may be watching this, they're they're wondering like, what do these exchanges look like? 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.919 When you have a conversation and you see these things, what does that look like? 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.440 You called me and you immediately was like, Man, I'm not I'm not okay. 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:08.879 And this is kind of what led to it. 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:15.039 So tell me a little bit about what you saw, those feelings, um, and what prompted you to kind of respond to it if you did. 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:23.759 Yeah, I I was in my office, and um and you know, it it's um it's interesting how social media works because every it's all like a flood. 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.000 It's not a slow trickle. 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:30.639 It it seems like it hits you all at once. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:38.399 And and so I I remember kind of like um like seeing you know a couple different posts, and they were like the headline posts. 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.679 I think people like screenshot it, and it was like the headline post. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:47.200 And so I was like, man, like this is like not again, like that's the that's the thought. 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.000 And and then I saw the video. 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:56.559 And uh yeah. 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:02.320 I grew up with parents that used to say things like, uh, be careful, little eyes, what you see. 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:05.840 Um I don't watch horror movies. 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:07.120 You and I've joked about this before. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.600 I don't uh I'm I'm 40 years old, I'll have I'll have nightmares. 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:13.679 Like it'll it'll disturb me. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:25.279 Um there are certain things that I think I have a tolerance for, and it doesn't seem to bother me, but there's certain things when I whenever I feel like if it's like a demonic sort of thing, I I'm I'm just I'm like save, save. 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.320 And so I I stay away from that stuff. 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.679 Um I've never seen anything like what I saw in that video. 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:43.840 Um like it's not what you see, it's what you hear. 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:50.799 And then what you don't see after what you hear and what you continue to see. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:56.639 And so it wasn't a struggle. 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:07.600 It wasn't resisting, it wasn't fleeing, it wasn't aggression, it was subdued. 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:08.480 Yeah. 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:20.559 And I kept thinking like how come he's not getting up? 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:22.559 Like the officer. 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.399 And then I realized I just watched a man be killed. 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:36.240 And that's not okay. 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.360 And I'm still not okay. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.200 That wasn't Hollywood. 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.639 That wasn't that was real. 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:51.759 Broad daylight. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:53.919 Middle of the road. 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:59.759 People watched, people recorded, no one did anything. 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.200 And there were four officers that were involved. 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:12.960 That is um too much. 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:28.240 And I just I just felt like I had to call you and I didn't I didn't want to call I I mean we get into why I called you and why I didn't call other people. 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:29.919 I mean, that's probably a conversation. 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:39.200 I I didn't want to have to filter my response and why explain it. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:40.639 Yeah. 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:55.039 I didn't want to have to shield and filter it through some political language or filter, or be um, I could say spicy words if I needed to. 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:55.440 Yeah. 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:59.440 Like for me, it was uh everyone has to have people that they can call. 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.240 Um, and I knew I could call you. 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:18.240 And and your response to me was um was as so not as sobering as what I saw, but was also another end like a window because again, for you, and we shared this last time where you see this more and more and you become desensitized. 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:24.879 Yeah, it there's an expectation um that that this won't be the last time. 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.840 Like, that's the other thing I think that really was alarming. 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:31.279 It's like, man, didn't we didn't we just deal with something like this? 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:36.399 Is it there's like didn't we like it's almost like class where you're not paying attention? 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:52.399 Yeah, and and it's and when you start looking at here's what it is when you pull on this string, and this is for everyone hearing like our conversation, and you and I know this, you pull on this string, and you're gonna have the whole freaking sweater in your hands. 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:57.759 Yep, because these aren't isolated, it's not every so often. 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:05.279 All that's happening now is we all have devices where we get to be sideline reporters. 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:22.400 Yeah, it's in front of us, it's in front of us, and I think for for me, dude, I I think um it was it was our conversation that made me reflect on it a little bit more because of the frequency and again the the historical pattern that I've seen my entire life. 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:29.039 So you again you you kind of create a way to insulate your feelings from um from certain expectations. 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:42.240 And it's and it's it's it's crazy that you can live in a country and and feel like your your your ancestors have contributed so much to a country, um, but yet feel like that country doesn't love you back. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:52.960 And so you stop expecting anything from it, you stop expecting justice from it, you stop expecting um fairness from it, you stop expecting um that at any point there's gonna be an equal playing field. 00:17:53.039 --> 00:18:00.480 And so you just learn how to exist with the way that things are, so that way you you you don't have to be enraged every single moment. 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:08.480 When I when I when I after we talked and I had some time to think about it, oddly enough, it it made me think about um like my family. 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:13.680 And and of course, it it there's there's a thread to this, but but I want you to I want you to follow me on this for a second. 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:16.480 It made me think about um it made me think about my family. 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:24.240 And so what we'll do, like at least once, maybe twice a week, we'll sit at the table um after dinner and we'll we'll play games together. 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.039 So our game of choice right now happens to be Uno. 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:30.319 And so it made me literally think of this instance, and so just follow me for a minute. 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:32.880 It felt like a never-ending Uno game. 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:44.960 And so it here's the scenario we got we got our Uno deck, and so everybody got their cards, and we have one of those decks where you can create your own like card, and so we got wild cards, draw fours, draw tens. 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:46.160 We got everything thrown in there. 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.160 So our games get really aggressive in the Pittman household. 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:49.359 For those that know, they know. 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:54.880 We we go in, like it, it's it's there's never more tension but more love in the Pittman household than when we're playing. 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:56.559 But I remember this one game. 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:04.480 So we're playing, and um, so so Caleb, he's he's pretty good, he's very analytical, he has a good memory, so he knows who has what color cards and all that stuff. 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:11.039 So, like typically there may be like an alliance with all of us to try to do our best, like anybody but Caleb type mentality. 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:11.519 Got it. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.519 So so what happens is um Caleb gets down to like his last card. 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:23.279 And so I think it was Megan, she had like a switch card where you can switch cards with that person, and by and and by principle, you can win. 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:25.599 So she gets the switch card, she takes his card. 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.200 Now he's filled with all her cards. 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.400 He slowly begins to work down the deck again using his strategy. 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:32.000 He gets down to one card again. 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.160 I have a switch card and I switch for him. 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.000 So then he gets the cards back again. 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:37.680 So we're in this never-ending game. 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.519 He works it all the way down again, Charlie, and then I hit him with a draw 10. 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:55.039 And so there's this moment, there's this moment for Caleb where he you could see that he was looking at the cards that was in the cards that he had been dealt, and he literally looked up and just said, Y'all have rigged this game, so I can't win. 00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:05.039 He said, Because every time I get down to a point where I think I'm about to win, y'all switch up the rulers, you change the colors, you're drawing four, drawing ten, switching a hand. 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:16.000 And I and I thought about I thought about that moment of the hopelessness, even in the game, but that's how I feel about living in America sometimes. 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:20.559 That I feel like I'm doing my best to live with the cards that I've been done. 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:26.960 I'm making strategic decisions to position my family in an environment where I feel like we can thrive and be successful. 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:34.880 But but no matter what, at the end of the day, there's an ability for someone to come in and just take the cards right out of my hand, and I am not presumed to be innocent. 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:40.559 There's somebody that can show up at any given moment, and what I know is that that I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to deal with it. 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:47.359 And so it it's it's it's it's almost like this sense of hopelessness, where you can still have faith but lose hope. 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:51.920 And I believe that I used to have this hope that things were gonna eventually begin to work themselves out. 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:56.880 But now I realize those words that Caleb said and that game is kind of how I feel right now. 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.279 Like the game is rigged, so I can't win. 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:08.480 And even when I believe that I'm making the best decisions, at some point somebody's just gonna come in and switch the rules up on me, draw four, draw ten, they're gonna do something, skip me. 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:10.880 Those things are gonna be things that I'm gonna have to deal with. 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.160 And so I've got to process through it, I gotta lead my family through it. 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:19.119 But nonetheless, this is this is very much this is very much our reality. 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:21.279 And and here's and here's the thing, Charlie. 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:32.480 When I saw when I saw that that that poor man on the ground, it it made me ask this question what what what is the what is the threshold of innocence? 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:33.440 When does that go away? 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.359 And I and I've shared this with you before. 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:50.640 Yeah, because I I can I can remember several years back, I guess it'll be six years ago now, because Caleb is 16, where I remember visiting my my mother in law, she lives in an inner city, and standing on a corner with my then son Caleb, six years ago, he was 10 years old. 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:57.440 A police officer rides by, and we're standing on a corner, getting ready to get in our car, and um he slows down, lets his window down. 00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:59.279 He says, Hey, how you guys doing? 00:21:59.440 --> 00:21:59.680 Great. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.960 How are you doing, son? 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:01.680 Talking to Caleb. 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:02.240 How are you doing? 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:02.559 Fine. 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:03.119 How are you? 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:03.599 Great. 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.400 He begins to talk to him and he's like, all right, man, you guys have a good night. 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:07.200 And he drives off. 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:08.640 And I was like, man, that's so cool, man. 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:09.599 That cop was so cool. 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:16.160 And something inside of me said, but when do you think your son stops being the cute little boy who has dreams? 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.160 And then he crosses that threshold and now he's America's worst nightmare. 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:24.160 Nothing's changed about him except that he's had the privilege of existing longer. 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:35.279 But now I'm having conversations with him about, hey son, I don't want you to have that kind of haircut because if you wear that kind of haircut, people are going to project certain things on you that you will not be given the benefit of the doubt on. 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:48.960 Son, I don't know if I want you to get your ears pierced because people are going to project certain things on you based off of whatever, because of course, African Americans, you carry the heritage and baggage of every negative experience that someone may have had with an African American. 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:54.640 So each moment you are realizing that I'm speaking on behalf of the entire black community. 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:58.160 And so for my son, I'm wondering when is that age? 00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:58.799 Is it 12? 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:05.359 Well, no, it can't be 12 because Tamar Rice was only 12, and cops pulled up and shot him down within three seconds without even giving him up. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.519 Like he's just outside playing on the playground. 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:13.279 What age is it where innocence is lost, and my beautiful young son no longer has dreams, but you're a threat? 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.000 They don't see the fact that he has a calling on his life. 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.240 They don't see the fact that he has he's a straight A student. 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:22.960 They don't see the fact that we're that he wants to be an engineer, that he has all kind of ideas that he wants to do. 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:30.559 All they see is you fit the description of every other thug that I've ever seen, so you're going to be met with threats and survivors. 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.000 That's that's the reality that that I have to deal with. 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:06.319 That's a problem that you and I live in the same place in the same profession. 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:15.359 And we drastically raise our kids to navigate life differently. 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.400 And so I know that there's we talked about this, there's a lot of conversations happening right now. 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:30.240 There are other pastors that are sitting down, and I I would say this to you listen, if you get a chance, um, listen to uh Pastor Carl Lynch, Bishop T. 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:30.480 D. 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:41.279 Jakes from yesterday, Pastor Steven Furtick, um, Pastor John Gray, our good friend Jimmy Rollins has uh gotten a chance to sit down in a couple different contexts. 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.599 Um and brilliant insight. 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.160 You and I are we're just friends. 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:52.799 Yeah. 00:24:53.039 --> 00:25:01.759 And when I hear you talk about your son, this is somebody who I I know and I love and I've hung out with, and and it's so it's very real. 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.599 Like I said, this is very real. 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:17.279 And I think some of that becomes the problem because I I think if if people that look like me would be would be honest, we have to get to a place where there's no there's no more they. 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:38.160 Yeah, and I think the only way that that takes place is when you can substitute they for names, yeah, stories, experiences that are not merely historical references, but they are people that you share your life with. 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:48.559 Because the moment you're able to do that, then what seems to be so distant, and when the problem is distant, it's easy for me to stay away and be disengaged. 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:54.160 It's easy, it's easy to feel bad and change the channel. 00:25:54.720 --> 00:26:08.000 Yeah, but when it's someone that I know, when it day in or day out, whether it's it's friends that are near or it's you that lives in another state, then it it changes it changes everything. 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:16.319 And so when we talk about like action steps, I know you had a lot of people hit you up last time for this, and I had people hit me up in terms of like, hey, what are the action steps? 00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:17.359 Tell us what to do. 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:19.759 And there's one side of that that I think is great. 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:22.640 We need to have action steps, but here's what I don't want. 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:27.680 I don't want simple, quick action steps so that we don't have to have this conversation anymore. 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:35.359 Yes, because I think the conversation has to remain even as we're working present and future for change. 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:36.880 Absolutely. 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:48.880 And so sometimes we want to yeah, no, I was I was gonna say, I think sometimes we just we want to rush past the parts that's uncomfortable, and and I think that's here here's a telling here's a telling sign. 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:59.680 So our last conversation um around this subject, um, I think for both of our both of our churches, it was the highest interaction that we've seen on social media, one of the highest engagements. 00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:04.400 And and we don't do these for these metrics, but it's just an awareness that people are really dialed in. 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:11.440 Like people really want to, they they want to have these conversations, they want to, they want to watch those conversations, they want to be a part of it, they want to grow and learn from it. 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:22.079 Um but as I started seeing moments ramping up for this conversation, and of course, in light of there's a heightened awareness, and everybody's posting about um George Floyd, like it's it's everywhere. 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:30.960 What I noticed is as I was as I was preparing and and posting to create awareness with people that are on my threads, I got the highest interaction. 00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:34.720 But every time I posted, I noticed that I was beginning to see people unfollow me. 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:35.359 You get to see it. 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:36.880 You see the beginning to drop. 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:41.279 And I thought, like, man, this is literally the definition of privilege. 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:46.400 Because you have the privilege of choosing whether or not you want to engage in my suffering or not. 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:56.079 So as long as I'm telling you uh a good message, if I'm giving you insight into my family, if I'm showing you outside cooking on a grill, yeah, Keith, let me see that side of you. 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:57.519 Okay, we're talking about suffering. 00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.720 Okay, I'm gonna unfollow that. 00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:04.400 And only privilege has the privilege has the ability that you can choose to unfollow the things you don't like. 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:11.680 But the reality is for my timeline, for my feed as an African American in America, I can't unfollow the things that are uncomfortable. 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:14.640 I gotta sit here and deal with it and live through it. 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:20.400 And so I think that sometimes we have to ask ourselves when people are like, man, everybody's talking about this, like, are we gonna ever move on? 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:22.720 Ask yourself why don't you want to talk about it? 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:23.039 Right. 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:27.759 I'm I'm I'm noticing friends of mine that that are that are deathly silent in moments like this. 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:31.680 And I realize we all got our own conviction, but I'm just telling you, I see that. 00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:32.640 I notice that. 00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:42.640 Yeah, like we can talk about everything, but when it comes to issues like this, why is it so hard for people to speak up consistently and recognizing systemic racism? 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:43.920 And here's and here's what I believe. 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:54.160 I believe that a lot of folks, they they have a they have a they have a wrong definition of what racism is, because that's such an aggressive word, and it's something that we've heard. 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.160 And man, don't call me a racist. 00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:04.559 And so when you begin to think about like what racism is, it's there's a lot of different definitions, but ultimately it's it's systemic oppression based off of color. 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.680 That's that's my clearest and muddiest definition I can provide. 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:17.920 So a lot of folks will say, well, racism doesn't exist by that definition because my my bank, my bank manager is an African-American, the principal of my school was an African-American. 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.680 We had an African American in the White House. 00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:30.559 So by all means, racism is no longer an issue because in the institutions where um African Americans may have historically been marginalized, we are now beginning to see a little bit of movement in that. 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.559 So I think that's why people can say, I don't believe racism is still a thing. 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:58.000 But when you really begin to investigate like the historic nature and the systems and even some of the laws that were created and what they were birthed out of, ranking all the way back from Jim Crow and the legislation that had been written from that all the way up to now, that we are still standing on the broken reality of slavery, our deepest sin that America refuses to repent of, and systems that were built on top of that have not been ratified. 00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.440 So, yes, systemic racism is still very much a real thing. 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:08.799 Just because you may have an African American who's a neighbor and there's a law that says that I can get a loan just like you can get a loan. 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.079 But the truth of the matter is you can't put a band-aid on a heart issue. 00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:17.119 It requires deeper surgery in order for it to really deal with it, and we haven't done that yet. 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:18.160 Yeah. 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:21.920 You said so much. 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:35.839 Um I think when you when you when you mention privilege, and I know that's something that um that that my uh my white counterparts um will have a difficult time hearing. 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:36.960 And here's why. 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:54.400 They'll hear the word privilege, and they'll think that it is an eraser for any hardship they've ever gone through, any um struggle that they've had, um, that it that it denies their work ethic, that it denies difficulty in their life. 00:30:54.720 --> 00:31:10.799 And what I want everyone to understand, when you hear, when you hear people, when you hear us talk about privilege, we're not talking or we're not using it as an eraser or a complete like negation of difficult situation, suffering that you've gone through. 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:15.440 What we're showing is not that it has nothing to do with your work ethic. 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:16.720 That's not what we're talking about. 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.799 We're not talking about hard work versus somebody um giving you something. 00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:31.039 What we're talking is going back to what you said, the ability to turn off or ignore is a privilege that I have that you don't have. 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:31.759 Yes. 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:44.480 Truth be told, if I wanted to put my head in the sand and completely ignore racism, ignore what's happening in the country, disengage from the conversation, I can actually do that. 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:46.400 And you will live a full life. 00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:47.519 Live a full life. 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:48.480 Live a full life. 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.000 Go out and get my mail tomorrow, get in the car, drive through Chick-fil-A. 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.960 And that would be that would be terrible, but it's possible. 00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.200 You don't get to turn off being black in America, right? 00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:06.400 It's something that you have to navigate through. 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:17.119 You've got to figure out what cards are in your hand now, and then what's happening in terms of how this is switching, and then how do you pivot when something changes? 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:17.599 Yeah. 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:37.440 Because I would imagine, you know, Keith, when even going through a situation in a season in a time like this, and this isn't a question that I've I've asked you before, and I hate to spring it on you now, but how does this affect the way in which you navigate day to day when we go through a situation that's right now, like it's it's heightened? 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:44.079 Um, it's talked about, it's not like it's going away, it's right on the front um page of everything. 00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:52.799 Do you feel do you feel comfort in knowing that there's more people talking about it, or is it still the same? 00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:59.519 Um so this is this is Keith and Charlie having a conversation. 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:00.240 Yeah. 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.240 So um, so this isn't my my politically correct answer. 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.440 This isn't my um even well thought out answer. 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.599