Joyful Work: Andrea Hadley-Johnson

How can joyful work support curiosity, experimentation and connection?

PhD researcher, creative producer, and museum sector leader, Andrea Hadley-Johnson, tells us how she has embedded joyful practice into her work, from experimenting with new ways of working to having team meetings outside in a roof garden. She gives insights into her practice, and talks of the importance of slowing down, focusing on what matters, and working with kindness.

Useful Stuff 

Andrea: https://www.midlands4cities.ac.uk/student_profile/andrea-hadley-johnson/

Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hadleya10/ 

Andrea on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-hadley-johnson-5808a732b

Laura: www.weareculturebloom.com 

Laura on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurafcrossley/ 

School of Performance and Cultural Industries at the University of Leeds: https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/performance 

Centre for Cultural Value: https://www.culturalvalue.org.uk/ 

Mental health at work

Mind: https://www.mind.org.uk/workplace/mental-health-at-work 

Funders

Clore Leadership: https://www.cloreleadership.org/ 

Arts and Humanities Research Council: https://www.ukri.org/councils/ahrc/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, I'm Laura and welcome to Joyful Work, Ending Burnout in the Arts. The podcast that helps you beat burnout in the cultural and creative sectors. Burnout amongst cultural and creative professionals is a crisis. If you work in the sector, chances are you've experienced burnout or know someone who's been through it. Burnout is making us ill, destroying our confidence, and impacting our careers. It's also leading to burnt-out organisations with less motivated, less focused staff who are desperately trying to stay afloat amongst hundreds of daily pressures. I'm an Arts and Workplace Culture Consultant from Manchester UK and an expert in creating joyful work cultures that prevent burnout. I want everyone to know that burnout in the cultural and creative sectors is not inevitable. It doesn't have to be this way. By making small changes, we can create a sector that cares for its people and organisations and where burnout isn't an inevitability. In this podcast, you'll find out about causes of burnout and what we can do to address the burnout epidemic. You'll hear from brilliant people who'll bring ideas for beating burnout, and you'll be encouraged to think about what you and your organisation can do to make burnout a thing of the past. Hope you enjoy. In this episode, we're talking to Andrea Hadley Johnson about injecting joy and creativity into work in the cultural sector.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Hello, my name is Andrea Hadley Johnson. I'm currently a PhD researcher, taking museum objects to meet people living in prison, to understand the role of self-led creativity and its links to well-being when the cell doors closed.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Andrea has delivered award-winning exhibitions and creative interventions in museums for over 20 years, working closely and kindly with communities of people and creative practitioners outside of museums to shape and inform what happens inside museums. Her co-produced projects bring people together to discover new opinions and share perspectives, surface stories and amplify lived experiences less heard. Andrea is known for her exploratory, playful, and quietly activist approach. She is interested in the edges of things, extraordinary fragments and the gravel of daily life. This is a hugely joyful conversation. Andrea brings brilliant energy to the room and has such fantastic ideas about how to inject joy and creativity into work. From having meetings on the roof to meetings in gallery spaces and really, really interesting practice that I think you're going to learn loads from and be very inspired by.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

However, I considered the way that we began that project and explored the tiny joyful moments, the encounters with people that build trust, uh, they build rapport, they enable us together to approach and approach a project like that without it breaking us.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Can you tell me a bit more about how you embedded that joyful experimentation? What does joyful experimentation mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I think that is different in every single project. Sometimes it's a tool that might be introduced that encourages people to be curious and explore in a new way. So, for example, an exhibition I was leading around young people and protest, rather than begin that process in the museum and designing up as a team with the team. We went out onto the street and we asked people what protest meant to them. And then in the gallery, as the exhibition emerged iteratively, I shared the workings out on the wall. So one wall was covered in scratch card, it's got a black surface and it's rainbow colour or silver underneath. Yeah, so you scratch the surface and it reveals the colour. So covering one wall with that and having a provocation on the wall, what does protest mean to you? People came into the gallery and picked up a little wooden lollystick and scraped away what protest meant to them. In that example, I would always encourage my team to be in the space. Our meetings happened in the gallery, as any exhibition. I always do that. And you can see then how people are responding and reacting. So you hear whoops of joy when people are scraping away and realizing that they can reveal this incredible mark. The action of scraping away the surface to make a mark or leave a drawing or a statement or an experience or a feeling in that public space was joyful. The colours are joyful, the action is joyful. People began to talk to each other. It slowed people down in a way that just asking wouldn't have done. It slowed people down in a way that inviting them to write it on a card or directly onto the wall or a piece of paper wouldn't have. So that's one example of thinking carefully about novel ways to encourage people to share their thoughts and feelings, to engage their heads, hearts and hands in that process. Um, and I think it's the the heart part in that that's important in enabling people to feel joy, the team and the people joining together, the people from outside the museum and the people from inside of the museum, whether that's us as a team going out to where people are or people coming into our spaces. It enables these interesting connections and sometimes it's an encounter, sometimes it's a tool like the scratch card that ignites moments of joy and connectivity.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Because we talk a lot about how we can create joy for visitors. We talk quite a lot about visitor well-being, but I sometimes feel like there's a gap between the way that we talk about staff. So maybe we don't always focus on staff well-being, staff joy. And I've been thinking a lot about that physical divide as well. That the gallery, as you said, can be full of these very joyful, creative, cool exhibitions. And then back of house can be the least creative spaces that you've ever seen. Um, so I think it's really interesting that you had those meetings in the gallery. Yeah, it'd be good to know what impact that had and thoughts about that perceived gap between visitor well-being and staff well-being.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

I think when the the divides are dismantled, um, and the the fluidity of people coming together, whether that is a team working on an exhibition or looking after a collection or people coming in, visitors or audiences, when you start to dismantle those barriers and gaps, actually it cuts across both. So if I could have a meeting in um an office with harsh lights and the PC that I've been sitting at for the last four hours or last 24 hours, or I could uh have the meeting in the gallery where the beautiful things are and the interesting people are coming and going, and we're all people, and those belongings are relevant and interesting to all of us. So it's finding ways to bring together the in and the out and the out and the in, and the interesting ebb and flow is, I think, where the new perspectives, new knowledge, new feelings, understanding of other people's opinions and views get to merge and overlap and create and craft joyful moments or experiences. So that could be that the the team could spill out onto the steps of a building and have their meeting outside. It could be in one museum I worked in, the last museum I worked in, there was a a little roof area and um started to think about connectivity to nature and how when we're in these buildings we we're not always connected. And with the team set up a little roof garden, and it was a beautiful, it was a beautiful space. So within weeks there were birds and butterflies coming into that area. We could have a meeting on the roof, we could later in the summer pick tomatoes, mint leaves, or different herb leaves. It didn't cost very much. Everybody brought together seeds and plants, and there were workshops for people in the city to make little bug hotels and things that went onto the wall. So again, it's uh involving people in thinking of new ways to connect and work. So the workforce benefited from that outdoor space, from that connectivity with the natural world. Our meetings were more joyful, our meetings were pleasant, we were away from the horrible carpet tiles and the strip lighting. Um, but yeah, sometimes it's just playing with ideas and new ways. So, what is working with the team and what isn't working, and how might we how might we change those patterns of work patterns that are entrenched? So I'm I find it very difficult when I'm working to step away, you know, step away from my laptop, step about, but I make myself do it. I make myself either not go to the meeting or have the meeting in a place that's more conducive to thinking differently and connecting differently with the team or people from outside the team.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

I absolutely love the idea because we all we know that connecting with people is really good for our well-being. And I love the idea that you find ways to connect staff with each other and staff with visitors. Sometimes with projects, um, we can say they've been a great success because there's been a great outcome for visitors or participants or audiences, or there's been a great exhibition, a great programme. And of course, all of that's really important. And that's that's what drives us, yeah. That's why we do what we do, because we want to create these brilliant moments for people. But you can come to the end of that project and the staff might be totally burnt out, or the freelancers might not have been paid on time, or you know, people could have worked hours and hours and hours to make that final product. Maybe we shouldn't say that a project's been a total success. If there's a beautiful end product for visitors, but the staff have had burnout. I am really interested in that concept of if we could see us as a kind of ecosystem or a whole, that in order to have really great museums, they have to be really great for visitors, participants, audiences, they also have to be great for staff. And we also have to think about our impact on the planet as well. Sometimes we do try to do too much, we try to build a lot, we we do a lot of redevelopments. And maybe if we thought about what are the impacts of this project going to be on our staff as well as our visitors, as well as the planet, it might help us work in more slower, intentional, regenerative ways that are kinder to everyone and that leave everyone, staff and visitors, feeling more nourished.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

I think you're absolutely right. We are responsible when we're leading those projects to think about kindness and sustainability and mental health and well-being and all of the things that we do, as well as delivering an end product. The evaluation should include people that are delivering and working in the institutions. I do think particularly within exhibition production, it the process should be slower. I'm a great believer in exhibitions emerging iteratively and responsively. Of course, there are deadlines still to meet, but a slow, responsive, reflexive process is absolutely better for well-being and it's better for the end product because you can reflect and adjust and change and improvise as you go. And I do think those check-ins with teams around what's working at this point in time and how are people thinking and feeling as we're doing. That doesn't mean um introducing a whole other layer of meetings because if you're working in that way and you're working openly and together and respecting different ways of thinking, neurotypical and neurodivergent thinking, all of that is part of the process. If you're encouraging people to take away the fear of failure, or understand the the boundaries of perfectionism and healthy dialogue with your inner critic when you're in those projects, worrying about a deadline or how other people are feeling or whether something's gonna work, or as you say, making sure that freelancers are paid properly from the beginning, influencing colleagues that maybe are less willing to share power and are more comfortable in their their niche and not working in that way. It's a lot to think about. If you slow that whole process down and mindfully be present with the process and the people at the time, then it's a kind of process. And my view is before a workforce or a member of a workforce gets settled and gets their feet under the table, before that happens, be in the spaces, listen to what people watch, observe, understand what's happening outside the building, be with the people, whether they are working for the organization or not working for the organization, but be with the people, watch that ebb and flow, see how the inside spills out and the outside spills in or not, as the case may be, because then we can all do our jobs in a more sustainable kind of way and find those moments of joyful connectivity and play.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Starting with connecting, starting with joy, immersing yourself in the spaces and finding ways to connect with people. A lot of what you've spoken about is about being comfortable with risk, being comfortable with experimentation, being comfortable with slowing down through making human connections. Are there any other helpful ways to slow down and take risk? Because I think risk taking can be difficult because there's so many challenges that we're facing, and as we face a lot of challenges, then it can be more scary to take risk. It can be scary to experiment. It can feel impossible to slow down because there are so many pressures on us. And I'd love to know what you found works in terms of supporting people to take those risks at experiment, slow down, be more intentional, and find time to connect with each other.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Time, Laura, is the the thing, isn't it? And I think for me, COVID, when everything had to pause, was uh like many people, at a moment when I could really reflect on do we in the place I was working at the time, do we need three exhibitions a year? No one's asking us for three exhibitions a year. Why not start one more slowly, involve more people in the process, and have two exhibitions a year or one that shifts and changes iteratively during that year? So that that was a bit of time to think radically about some of the processes and rhythms of the work that I was doing and and how that maybe wasn't relevant anymore. But when I worked for Derby Museums, we had some really great conversations about what mattered, what actually matters about any of the work that we're doing. And again, really open conversations where if I have a team of people that I'm responsible for, I want them to bring their authentic self to work. I want them to challenge some of my thoughts and ideas, I want to build a team that can roll together, support each other, laugh, find new ways and experimental ways. But there's little joy in in doing the same thing over and over and over again. And when you start to think, well, actually, what does matter about this? What what is it? What are people taking away at the end of the day? If it's a drudge, then no one is performing their best. Surely all of us in our work in museums with these incredible belongings and the space to connect with people and explore the big themes and make a difference to the world, surely all of us want to come away at the end of the day knowing that we've made a difference and that feels good. That's a healthy thing to come away with. Whether it's difficult or not difficult is is another matter. I'm thinking about it differently as well now that I'm out of museums because I've got a space between working for an institution and going into an environment where the constraints for the people that work there are really difficult. So I'm doing some research with people living in prisons and people working in prisons. And someone said the other day, you've brought joy into a place where there is very little joy. And it was a data gathering workshop, but there was laughter. When I listened to the audio, again I reflected on kindness and respect and building a rapport with people, connecting, not necessarily agreeing with someone. If you don't agree with someone's way of working, it doesn't mean that you can't work together. There's an interesting tension and friction that can bring again something new and vibrant and exciting and meaningful. Thinking about how joy in workforces that are stuck and haven't had the time to just pause and reflect and try a new way is incredibly important. And I'm realizing that more as I say in the this working in a prison environment at the moment, how vitally important that is. It can save people from becoming very, very poorly indeed.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

So interesting. And I know your work is um really fascinating, the the research that you're doing. I think you've spoken so much about connections, it's really made me think about how it's going to be connections with people who we might not personally get on with or we might not always agree with, but finding ways to make the space for those discussions and not feel rushed. Um I sometimes think that understandably people feel under pressure, and so we fill our diaries with meeting after meeting, and we're just constantly chronically, chronically busy all the time. And I often think what would happen if even just for one hour a week we put in our diaries, we're gonna have space to think, we're gonna have space to create. I'm sure that many of us will have to go to regular meetings that feel a little bit Pointless, dare assay. So what if we didn't do that? And what if we just found that small amount of time to have that space to reflect? Because I think, you know, everything you've said makes me think that to have those connections, to have that time to think, to have kindness between people and more positive, nourishing relationships that end in doing the stuff that all we all love to do, creating brilliant stuff for visitors, creating stuff that really nourishes visitors. That starts with just having that small bit of space to think. And also, I I love what you said about what really matters. How do we bring people together to focus on what matters?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

I did actually in my last place of work stop going to some of the meetings that I had been involved in over a period of years. I stopped because I couldn't see the value in those meetings and there were things that mattered to the work that I was being paid to do more than sitting in that room. That felt like a a huge I felt like a courageous thing to do, but it was at a point when I didn't really feel like I had a choice uh uh other to to just keep going into infinity round and round and round or just be brave and say, I'm not coming to these meetings anymore, and this is a reason why I'm not coming to them, and this is what I will be doing instead, and this is the value that will be added to the team, to the workforce, and of course to our people that visit or don't visit. And you asked me earlier about risk, and uh I had the great privilege to work with Tony Butler at Derby Museums for for a number of years, and I remember a big complex project that I was leading, and I'd started a strand of work within an exhibition led by the people that that were co-producing with me and my team. It was a new team, and I was uh gently encouraging people to embrace this uh slightly different way of working, working so openly and improvising, which I am comfortable with improvising, um and not everyone is, so I needed to create that space of and feeling of of safety. But Tony said to me, he gave me permission to take risks. He said, if it doesn't work, it's okay, that becomes part of the project. All of this is an experiment. It we we move on from it, and he gave me permission to think, yeah, actually, that's okay. And it really stuck with me that when I was producing with teams artist exhibitions, artists often by nature experiment. I together we were doing all of this, and then then when we moved into museum collection galleries, it suddenly felt like things that were happening organically and fluidly as part of delivering an art exhibition, it was a greater risk. Things might get broken, we might interpret them in the wrong way. Uh so many things that were spinning around above me as I was my inner critic was amplifying them. That's okay. I'll ask all those questions, and I just taped them all to the wall. Just I did it very carefully and beautifully so that people could see what was happening, and we were making visible the processes that are hidden. And so for the team that felt like a a safer step. So although it was a risk, someone could come in and go, Oh my god, why have you got things masking taped to the wall? This is a gallery in the centre of a museum, this should be complete. But actually, people embraced it and loved it. So it it it meant that the team relaxed into that. It didn't mean we weren't taking it seriously, it just meant that we were making visible all of our thought processes. So that brought us together as a team. These all these different ways of working, it made visible the uh way that the collection manager might be thinking about the objects, it made visible some of the ideas that I'd picked up from a man in the street that I thought might be really incredible. They all wove together on the walls and gradually this exhibition emerged. And I wouldn't work any differently now. But it's making it visible that was uh bringing us together and and enabling us to appreciate all the different ways that an exhibition might be developed or an object might be considered, and bringing that into meetings, for example, I think every museum meeting or every meeting in a museum should have a collection item on the table. So if you're not having your meetings out with people in a public space, in the gallery or on the steps or in a in a communal area in the city, if you're not doing that, you become disconnected from the purpose of your role. And then within the museum, people come become disconnected from each other. So the way that all those people and and teams perform and interdepend to create something extraordinary, but somehow is lost and you're left with the only the tensions, only the points of uh difference where people retreat and pull against each other. And that in itself can slow things down. But bringing an object into a space where those discussions are happening with a maybe a set of uh provocations, turn it upside down, draw it, what matters about this to you see what it looks like in a reflection, what memories does it prompt? But these little provocations can connect people then with the object and our purpose and each other, and it cuts through the repetition of those kinds of working practices.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

I love that we're using that bit of creativity and purpose to make work more joyful. I also really love that you displayed the kind of messiness of the creative process um in the galleries. But I think sometimes we can get a bit wrapped up in trying to be perfect. And maybe that's also because we feel like we have to be perfect for funders. We have to be perfect so we get loads of visitors. Whereas actually, you know, we've all run exhibitions that we've done and thought, well, I know that that's not right, and I know that that's not right, and that's not what have a thought, but visitors don't notice. Like we're we're we're our own worst critics. And I would really love in this sector for us to kind of reclaim the word failure. No project, no exhibition, no programming, nothing will ever be perfect success. Nothing will ever be a perfect life isn't a perfect success. There'll always be areas where we in quotes fail. But we see failure as this terrible thing. And I think maybe that is linked to thinking, oh, if it doesn't go perfectly, maybe I won't get the funding for that, or maybe I'm not going to get funded again, or maybe Vistas won't come. And actually, I think there's something really important about embracing failure, it not being a really negative word, not apportioning blame to people because something's not gone perfectly, because nothing does go perfectly. And we are working in a creative industry where things are messy. Um, so that's yeah, I think we could be released from some of our uh perfectionist um behaviors, um, and also you know, support workforce well-being if we acknowledge to ourselves that things aren't perfect, nothing's going to be an outright success, failure is part of the creative process, and that's great, and we can learn from it.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Someone reflected back taking museum objects out onto the streets, and I remember saying that, well, let's just try it. And and I'm saying let's just try it now in the prisons because actually let's just try it because then we know. And of course, there's a parameter of we're not going to throw the thing and let it land on the ground and see if it breaks or not. This is about let's just try it, let's experiment. And you're right, you're absolutely right. Failure is where the really interesting ideas come if you have built in time to reflect. Obviously, you don't want the failure at the very end and there's nothing on the walls, but if you build that in through the process where people are coming together to curate, co-curate, whatever people are calling it or want to call it, co-produce, co-create. If you're coming together exploring each step, how might that? Why? What if? Let's just try it, but then you're less likely to fail at the end. And I love what you were saying about earlier about the well-being of workforces being held as carefully in our minds as the well-being and the joy and the interest from people that are coming into the museum from outside. It is so important, and that should be evaluated. We should slow down and we should play towards these incredible outcomes together.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

We can tell ourselves the narrative, understandably, that it's always going to be hard, we're always going to be too busy, we're always going to be burnt out, and that's just what happens. That's come up a lot in my research. And I would love us to just take a moment and think: is that what we really want? Do we want a sector where the workforce automatically burns out? Do we want to work in ways that we know are going to be harmful for people? Because isn't this sector about bringing joy and great experiences and learning and knowledge and you know, great times together to audiences? And so why don't we reflect that in what we do as a workforce as well?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Like you said, it could be someone saying, I am not going to do this anymore. I'm going to do this instead, and this is the reason why change can happen where the meetings happen, when the meetings have to happen. At least the environment can be more conducive for creative thinking and trust and rapport and respect within the team. Always bring someone from outside the museum into those meetings because again that's a like bringing in an object. There's a a twist or a new perspective, or someone there that isn't familiar that keeps people in check if they are maybe behaving disrespectfully generally as people do when they feel stuck. Everyone has a responsibility to to shift workforce culture. It isn't just a leadership team, anyone at any level. And that I think in my work, and I really hope that I modelled that.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Burnout is caused by systemic issues, like big things like cost of living crisis. Um, however, it is also organizational, things like the the way we work, the processes that we use, um, how we treat each other, all of those things um impact how we feel. And often the impacts of burnout are bad for organizations because people can't focus as much and they might not be as motivated, might not be as productive, um, maybe might not be as creative or collaborative, but it's also has some huge impacts on people, can cause people to leave roles, can cause people to have mental and physical health issues that can last for a long time. And people I've spoken to have said that they feel like failures on the burn out, which I really want to try and shift the narrative about because um actually is it a failure when actually we're just all battling against a world that's designed to make us burn out? It can feel impossible, and there can be a real narrative of this will never ever change. This sector is always going to burn people out. There's nothing that I can do. People feel really trapped within their roles, within their organizations. I think you can start to think, well, it's it's probably like this everywhere. And then the narrative is that the whole sector burns people out. And I totally agree with you that there are small things that every single one of us can do. I remember the best advice I was ever given when I was having quite a difficult time. And I always envisioned myself like standing in a corner facing a wall and not having anywhere to move on either side. And the person who gave me the advice said there is always somewhere you can move. Even if you can move a tiny sidestep one way, you are never, ever, ever stuck. And I totally agree with you that there are really small things we can all do. And if we all do those small things, then collectively we have more chance of change in the system. So if we all think a bit more about actually do I need to go to that meeting, or is this meeting really necessary? Can I find even 15 minutes in my diary every week to have some space to think and reflect? Could we have this meeting somewhere else, outside and apart? Um, can we have an object with us? Just those introducing those really small, intentional, slow, joyful ways of working that help us connect can make a real difference. And it's those small changes that can help change workforce cultures. It can feel impossible to change a culture because it's just like, oh, where do I start? Actually, it's that series of small steps that can make a big difference. And then I think ultimately, if we all start working in ways that are more intentional and not designed to burn us out, then maybe we have a chance of change in the sector. There are some factors that we'll not be able to change, and we can't battle alone, but we can make a change in the sector.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

I agree, and I think those small steps do matter, and sometimes they feel like they're just a tiny drop in an ocean, but they they matter. Um, someone gave me some good advice when I was in a difficult environment, and they said, find your allies, find your allies and work in solidarity with people that might not be in the organisation that you're in. And that really resonated with me. That made me dissolve those walls of the building itself and think about dismantling the barriers between the the in and the out, the people that creating this fluid uh ebb and flow that those people became my allies, I became an ally to them, and in solidarity, small shifts became bigger, more systemic changes. So it can happen. It does take some energy and tenacity, make a bit of good trouble, but but it it's good for all of our well-being.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

It's that making connections with people in your workplace but also outside the workplace. Um, and you know, now we can also make connections to people across the world working in this sector. It's been really good. This research has allowed me to speak to people, not just in the UK, but across the world internationally. And I think many of us are dealing with very, very similar issues. And I feel like together we can make collective change that's really important. I am also going to definitely take away from this conversation, make good trouble. I think it's really important that we remember that we have got power, especially when you're feeling burnout or when you work in an organization that works in ways that cause burnout. We all have some power, and it's really important to remember that if we all, yeah, make those connections and nourish each other and work together.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

It's a beautiful way of working, and that's that that's where we should focus our that's a successful project. There's been laughter within the meetings. There's been, and again, it doesn't dilute the integrity of the seriousness of anything. I thought I was in a workshop last week in a prison with five people that are serving life sentences, and we laughed and laughed at some tiny moments where someone had never seen watercolour paint before and they didn't know what it was. And uh, I explained and he spilt some water and I said, Oh quick, drop a little bit of that on the water and see what happens. And uh it was such an incredible moment of wow, wow, never seen this anything like this before. And that was a a minuscule moment, it was um it was seconds, and I hope that that resonates with that person when they go back to their cell and has some as a balm to what they might be enduring.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

I think moments of joy um are much more powerful than we think. Yes, yeah, yeah. Small moments of joy. Yeah, absolutely. Oh Andrea, it's been such a delight to talk to you. I could have honestly spoken to you all day. It's been such an interesting conversation. Your work is fascinating. Um are there any final thoughts that you want to add?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

If as museum, people working in and for with museums, if we talk about working openly, putting in place anti-racist practice, uh all the vital things like that that we should always be working with to work in a an equitable way. If I am considering all of those things, sustainability, equitable practice, I know there will be times when it's uncomfortable. And if I shift in my mind that that I'm embracing that, I'm not gonna dread coming up against someone that has totally different views from me and doesn't want that to happen. I will embrace that and I will try and understand where that comes from, and it might not be comfortable, but it is collectively, if we're all doing that, it isn't a paper exercise, none of this is a paper exercise, it's real people that we are working with and for. When I joined museums, I I felt fearful that oh, I'm getting this all wrong and I can't work in this sector. I didn't really go to museums as a child, so my my family didn't have very much money, we didn't have a car, went to a museum a couple of times, um, and I remember my dad and I getting in trouble for standing on a set of antique scales that were placed in a corridor uh without any interpretation, and I remember him lifting me up and putting me on the scales, and someone appeared and said, What do you think you're doing? These are and and yes, we could have damaged it, but we didn't know. We didn't know, we didn't know how to do museums. So when I arrived in museums, I came with all of that behind me. I hold that really closely. But to work with empathy and understand that any of us, any person that we might be working with or might be coming into our museum, we don't know their background, we don't know, they might be pre-presenting in one way and have had very, very different experiences. So challenging our own assumptions, understanding our biases and being open and being warm-hearted and empathetic is how those connections and those tiny steps occur.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

I so agree, and also with ourselves, we don't know all the experiences colleagues have had, we don't know how they might be feeling that day, we don't know what they might be dealing with. Um and that doesn't mean that any of us are gonna be perfect, like we're all human, we're all gonna make mistakes. But if we can set the intention so that we're gonna be empathetic and that we're gonna try and be understanding of different people's circumstances and the way people want to work and people's lived experiences, and we listen and really create organizations that listen, which I think sometimes, especially when people are burnt out, it's sometimes the case that maybe we don't create the space to listen because we feel stressed. But taking a step back and doing that can be so much more welcoming and nourishing, fulfilling for everyone. Thank you for listening and thank you to Andrea for a brilliant conversation. You can find more about Andrea's PhD research in the show notes. I'd love to hear from you if you have an experience of burnout or if you'd like a chat about my work. You can find more about my research and more tips for beating burnouts on my LinkedIn profile and my website, both of which are linked to in the show notes. Thank you to Funduscore and the Arts and Humanities Research Council for funding this podcast and my research into burnout in the cultural sector. And to Professor Ben Wormsley of the University of Leeds for supervising the research. You can find a link to the School of Performance and Cultural Industries at the University of Leeds and the Centre for Cultural Value in You've Guessed It, the show notes. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast today, please like and subscribe. And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, give it a review to encourage more people to listen. Our next episode will be with Chris Webb, an arts freelancer. He'll be talking about burnout for freelancers and staff working in organisations, tools to prevent burnouts, and what to do if there's a misalignment between your values and those of your organization.