The Power of Rest: Kate Oliver

Why is rest so important for individual and organisational health; and what does good rest look like? 

Cultural and environmental freelancer and consultant and Founder of the Radical Rest Network, Kate Oliver, breaks down reasons why arts workers are exhausted and overworked. She gives practical suggestions for how we can prioritise and give permission for rest - and push back against the pervasive culture and celebration of busyness.

Useful Stuff 

Radical Rest Network: https://radicalrest.substack.com

Kate on LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/kate-oliver-96b6a6162

The Nap Ministry: https://thenapministry.wordpress.com/ 

Laura: www.weareculturebloom.com 

Laura on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurafcrossley/ 

School of Performance and Cultural Industries at the University of Leeds: https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/performance 

Centre for Cultural Value: https://www.culturalvalue.org.uk/ 

Mental health at work

Mind: https://www.mind.org.uk/workplace/mental-health-at-work 

Funders

Clore Leadership: https://www.cloreleadership.org/ 

Arts and Humanities Research Council: https://www.ukri.org/councils/ahrc/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Laura and welcome to Joyful Work, Ending Burnout in the Arts. The podcast that helps you beat burnout in the cultural and creative sectors. Burnout amongst cultural and creative professionals is a crisis. If you work in the sector, chances are you've experienced burnout or know someone who's been through it. Burnout is making us ill, destroying our confidence, and impacting our careers. It's also leading to burnt-out organisations with less motivated, less focused staff who are desperately trying to stay afloat amongst hundreds of daily pressures. I'm an Arts and Workplace Culture Consultant from Manchester UK and an expert in creating joyful work cultures that prevent burnout. I want everyone to know that burnout in the cultural and creative sectors is not inevitable. It doesn't have to be this way. By making small changes, we can create a sector that cares for its people and organizations and where burnout isn't an inevitability. In this podcast, you'll find out about causes of burnout and what we can do to address the burnout epidemic. You'll hear from brilliant people who'll bring ideas for beating burnout, and you'll be encouraged to think about what you and your organisation can do to make burnout a thing of the past. Hope you enjoy. In this episode, we're talking to Kate Oliver about ways in which individuals and organisations can better incorporate REST into their work and the importance of REST.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

So I'm Kate, I'm a freelancer and consultant in learning in the cultural and environmental sectors. So I work with lots of different organisations and people, and I also run the Radical Rest Network.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Kate is a freelancer delivering projects in the cultural and environmental sectors, having led learning teams at the Horniman Museum, Quentin Blake Centre for Illustration, and London Zoom. Two years ago, she created the Radical Rest Network, where now nearly 300 exhausted sector workers come together to share best practice, challenges, and support to prioritise rest. I've known Kate for a little while now and I've always been hugely inspired by her work. I've attended Radical Rest Network meetings myself and have really enjoyed the opportunity to learn more about how people in the sector are prioritizing rest and also have the chance to rest. You actually get a chance to just take a step back and rest during each of the sessions. It's a really, really inspiring network, and Kate is doing fantastic work. I really like the way that she thinks, and we had a really interesting conversation about the importance of rest, about how we should celebrate rest, stop celebrating being busy, and celebrate rest instead. And how actually, even though it can sometimes feel really difficult, it is always possible to incorporate rest into our daily routines, supported by really good personal boundaries but also by really great organisational practice. I started by asking Kate more about the Radical Rest Network.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Sure, so it started actually as part of a little kind of leadership programme called Space for Change in London, where we were all given half a day a month to work together on some kind of project that addressed a change that needed to be seen in the cultural sector. And every time we met up for this project, we just would go around and check in at how everyone was doing, and everyone was just exhausted, strung out, overworked. I'm sure you've every network you've been to, it starts the same way. And so me and a group of my colleagues decided that the only change we could really make in the sector was rest. That was the first thing that needed to happen. So we did uh a little bit of research on it. We did a survey with kind of important and heartbreaking results about rest in the sector, and then at the end of the project, we were meant to do a 20-minute presentation about our results, and instead we just made everyone rest for 20 minutes. So it was like 30 cultural sector leaders, and there was this gasp at the impossibility of what we were asking them to do. It was a really powerful and uncomfortable moment. And since then, like every time I've talked about the project, people are so interested in it. It's clearly a conversation that lots of people want to be having in the sector, like the one you're having here. And so I started a little mailing list. This was 18 months ago, and there's now 320 people on it. So we're the Radical Rest Network now, and we share resources and ideas on this mailing list, and then we meet up every couple of months. We have speakers come in who talk about some expertise or some best practice about rest, and we're a space that people can support each other to prioritize rest because it is a really uncomfortable thing in our sector, and it's just something that we all want to be talking about more.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Why do you think it is so difficult to talk about rest, especially in a sector that talks so much about the well-being of audiences? Why is it so difficult for us to apply that to staff?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, I think there's an awful lot of reasons. When we did the research, I mean the first thing to say is just if someone's feeling like this, that they're so not alone on it. When we did that first survey, uh 75% of workers said they weren't getting enough rest, and everything I've done since says that number is probably even higher in reality. In terms of why the barriers that people said, a lot was around unrealistic expectations, and those were from organizations, so people saying uh unrealistic workload, not enough staff, also from ourselves, so people feeling guilty not working, feeling they had to always put work first over their lives, and also unrealistic expectations from the sector. Like you say, there's a cultural thing in our sector of it's a passion, uh, we're here for the love of it, and that can really feed into those messages that people had as well. Um, but I mean, there are things we can do about it too. It's not just a negative thing, but it's I think it does need acknowledging, like you say, that it's it's prevalent and it's an uncomfortable thing for lots of good reasons. Like if you're talking about rest or even well-being, you might be acknowledging that your organization is consciously or unconsciously taking advantage of workers. These problems are disproportionately affecting those workers who are most marginalized by society. And you're also sitting with the discomfort of your own personal messaging as well. Like, do you are you carrying messages of being lazy or not good enough that are feeding into this as well? And that's not just you, and it's not just our sector, that's like the whole capitalist soup we're swimming in, is reinforcing those messages as well. So I think there's lots of really valid reasons that this is happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

There's a couple of things I'd love to pick up on. Um, firstly that idea of being a sort of being a failure in my research. People have acknowledged that actually there are personal reasons why we might be burnt out, like feeling very passionate about the work, you know, really caring about it. But a lot of it is about the systems that we're living in, capitalism, overproduction, and organisational issues as well. But when I've asked people how burnout's affected them, it's often on a personal level. So it does affect their organizations too. They're less motivated, they're taking more time off. But so many people have said it's led to them being ill, taking sick days, in in some cases having it impacting them on for years and years. And many, many people have used the word failure, that even though they know this is a systemic thing, that they feel like a personal failure. What came up in your research about that personal impact?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

What you're saying feels really heartbreaking, doesn't it? And it felt really heartbreaking the the results that we were getting when we said to people, what's the impact that this has for you, this lack of rest? Like you say, genuine tangible work things, largely around ability to have creative thinking, ability to have strategic thinking, ability to actually learn from one project before you go on to the next one, because that's so prevalent in our sector, we're just constantly moving on to the next uh funding bid or the next project. But also, like you say, there's a big personal part of it as well. And part of it is the kind of people who tend to come into this sector, like none of us are getting paid so much that we're doing it for the money. We are all doing it for lots of kind of ethical reasons. We we might really care about our work, and that means you think the work you're doing is important. Um, especially when I've worked with people who are in the environmental sector, there's also huge issues like climate change, which are kind of ever present there, and they feel a lot of responsibility towards. Like you say, a lot about the whole of our society and not specifically the cultural and arts sector. I think there is something in our sector about the increasing responsibility of what we're being asked to do that I think is new in the last few decades, particularly coming from a learning background, a learning perspective, it's become increasingly central to organizations, the learning work, which is fantastic and really good, but also means the increase of responsibility on those staff is significant. We're also working when we're working with the public and we're working particularly with community groups that are being increasingly targeted, we're working with increased need and increased marginalization, and we're in a cost of living crisis. So we're taking on a lot more emotional work and a lot more responsibility and just experiencing a lot more need around us without necessarily the workers in the cultural sector having had training about that or being particularly supported or resourced to have the time and the skills to do that. So I think it can really feed into that exact vibe you're talking about of feeling like there's so much that needs to be done organisationally and with the audiences you're working with, and feeling like you have to pour everything into it. So it feels like a kind of toxic double act there that really creates this kind of problem in our sector.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

One thing I think is really needed to change that narrative is the acknowledgement that it's not a personal failure, it's not people being weak. Like we can't fail against the system. We're all fighting in this very, very complex system. As you say, there are marginalised groups for whom burnout is worse. We're doing very emotionally aid on work. There is simply too much to do sometimes, it's very hard to prioritize. Um so I think that feeds into this narrative of hopelessness that working in the cultural sector is always gonna be like this, we're always gonna be burnt out, there's nothing that can be done. And I think people can also feel very trapped in their roles, not really knowing where else they might go, or feeling like if I move to an organization, it's gonna be very similar. Often when we talk about burnout in general as a society, we talk about things that people can do personally, and of course that's really important. Like we we should all be setting boundaries, we can all work in ways that are healthier for us. But as noted, because this is a systemic issue, sometimes you can set all the boundaries you like, it doesn't mean that you won't get burnt out. So I'm really interested in your thoughts about how organizations can help prevent burnout. So it's not just seen as something that people need to do themselves and it's all their fault if they're burnt out.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

What drives burnout is that sense of being jaded and hopeless and beginning to disengage is it get comes right into the heart of it, doesn't it? I'm glad to say there's loads of things that work. Um so when we did the research, we asked people what's worked for your rest. And lots of it was those personal things. So finding what rest is to you is kind of a big part of it because that is different for all of us and it's different for all of us every day and even every hour. So this morning I would have said rest for me was really going outside and moving because I'd just been at the screen too much, you know, I just needed to physically move. Whereas now, rest for me would probably be sitting back because I've just come back from something, so now I I need a bit more kind of physical stillness. So a big thing that helped people was those personal things. So it might be mindfulness and yoga, but equally it can be chatting to a friend or going for a walk or lying down. The other part of it, like you say, is the organizational culture, and that was the thing that seemed to have the really biggest effect in the research. So there's boundaries, and that's like you say, it's partly a personal boundary thing, and it's partly an organizational boundary thing about taking breaks, about going home on time. We had a lovely quote from someone saying, uh, I feel like an idiot going home at six because everyone's gone at 5:30. And I'm sure we all have experienced those different organizations where some places you were like, I still have to be here, and some places you were like, Oh, everyone's gone, I can go, I can go now. So I think there's something important about the organizational culture there. And of course, the other end of that is things like going to a four-day week or literally closing down for a while to give your staff uh sufficient rest. But that culture thing is huge, and from that we drew the conclusions that the most effective kind of rest is when it's mandatory and when it's collective. So, for example, I'm sure you've had when you're like, oh, I've got to take my toil or I've got to take my annual leave, I've got to go on holiday, but you can feel your inbox filling up for the every time you're away, or you know there's an event going on that your team are dealing with you're not there for. That's not very restful. Whereas if everyone's told to go home at 12 on Friday, if it's a four-day week, if it's a time that everyone's taking off together, that collective feeling of it that lets you feel able to rest. And so it all really circles for us this idea of permission to rest. And like you were just saying, Laura, I think you really hit on something that there's a permission that we get from ourselves, and there's also permission we get from our organizations and from the wider culture as well. So having a think about where we're getting that permission, are we saying to ourselves, you know, okay, I'm gonna lock out my lunch break, I'm gonna take this five minutes to rest, I'm gonna go and see my friends tonight, kind of things. Are we also doing those organisational changes that are giving people permission to rest?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

What sort of things can organisations do to give that permission? Because that certainly came up in my research as well, that people were trying to give themselves permission to rest. But, you know, we can put in for our toil, we can try and take a lunch break, we can put our phones away at five o'clock, for example. But I spoke to so many people who said they just don't feel like they have that permission collectively and as an organization. I really like what you said about collective action. And I think there's something about um creating organisational norms that mean it's okay to rest because it is really hard to go against organisational norms when we're part of organizations. So not just saying, oh, you must all make sure you take your lunch break or please do take your holiday, because I don't feel that's enough. That's not that active permission. It's just it falls short and it doesn't give people permission to rest. So, yeah, what are the sort of really affirmative things organizations can do?

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, you're quite right on that. And the good news is there's loads of really effective things that not only organisations can do, but specific case studies of organizations who are successfully doing this. And this is one of the lovely things that we share in the Radical Rest Network is look, all these people who are doing this thing that you thought was impossible. So at one end of the scale, there's the literally changing to four-day week, and there's a huge amount of research out there about how effective that is for productivity as well as for human well-being as well. There's also closure periods. So 64 million artists who are absolute dreams at workplace culture, they close for the whole of August every year to give their staff a proper break. Other organisations, like most organizations I've worked in, go really quiet at the end of December. You know, there's a couple of weeks where it's understood that most people aren't going to be around. You can do shorter amounts of that. Certainly, I know organizations who just, after the pandemic, were like, everyone's burnt out. You know what? I can just stop this for a week. I don't even need to ask the trustees. Like, I can just do it and just give everyone a bit of a break. So even if it's a half day at some point, if you know the whole team have just come off a big project, if you know everyone's really feeling it right now, make that choice for that. I think that's really effective. Going down kind of in scale, I've heard a lot of stories of organizations who give specific time and even specific budgets for rest, which is allowed to be used flexibly. And I love this because, like we said, the enforced workplace wellness yoga at lunchtime is like that is not popular in the research. Not popular at all, and doesn't seem to be very effective from other people's research as well. Um, whereas I love that idea of you get X hours or X uh amount of money, and you can use that budget, but specifically needs to be for your rest for your recuperation. So I know someone was using it on kind of going to the theatre because that really felt good for them. Other people were using it on a yoga membership or something like that, or we're just using it and going out with a friend, you know. But really enabling people to think about and give and feel permission and feel like they have to do something for rest. That was really powerful. I can see how that would work really well. But I think for all of us, we can all change that culture. I know people in the Radical Rest Network have found it so effective just to talk about this or even just to show up. So we have these Zoom meetings once every couple of months, and for some people, that is the only time they're really talking about rest and prioritizing themselves. And so I think even doing something like that, being in a space where we're all just talking about rest and that it is important and you're allowed to do it, I think it's really important to talk to your teammates about it, to your colleagues about it. So the conversation in your office isn't always I worked till eight last night, I was so stressed out, I was up till 11 doing this thing, I was in early this morning. Can your conversation more often include you saying, oof, I took lunchtime off, I went out, I went and did this thing, I listened to the birds for a minute, I did this really fun thing last night, I had this great rest, I took off Friday because I was so tired. Can we talk about it, make it okay to talk about it? Because that is not just really giving permission to yourself, but it's also giving permission to everyone around you as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

I think that we can really wear that kind of badge of busyness. Like it might be intentional or unintentional, but look how busy I am. I was emailing at 10 o'clock last night and I thought it's a seven-day week. And I sometimes say that as like a badge of shame. It's like it's not cool that what it's a seven-day week, and I'm not bragging about this, it's awful. But certainly, I think for some people it can become like sort of competition about who can do the most work. We talk about work and life like it's two different things. And I really like the idea of celebrating and talking about the ways that we take rest outside of work because ultimately, I said, work and life aren't two separate things. If our lives are really difficult, then that will impact on our work and vice versa. And so yeah, the idea of talking about all the cool things you've got to look to. I I run away days sometimes and I often start them by asking, partly for my own uh benefit. I'll ask everyone to tell me like a recommendation for a film or a TV or a podcast. And it's like, oh, we actually get to just talk about stuff that you know isn't work. And colleagues get to know each other better because we they don't never have time just to say what they've been watching on the tell. And there's no judgment I love, I love hone about the most trashy TV. I can, to be honest. But yeah, I feel like sometimes we we define ourselves by our work, and maybe that feeds into this idea that we have to be productive and that productivity has to mean tangible outputs. And I do wonder what might happen if we thought about productivity in a different way, that you can be productive by blocking out two hours of your diary for thinking or for doing nothing, like just sitting or going for a dog walk, or however we kind of come up with ideas. I'd be really interested to know your thoughts about that. That idea of productivity is tangible against productivity as being anything that helps us kind of move forward in some way.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Definitely, yeah. I think there's a a real risk with well-being stuff. I know you're on this page as well of just being another productive thing. So I saw a brilliant meme saying for a yoga session in my diary. Yeah, exactly, exactly. We must do well-being on Wednesday. I saw a brilliant meme that said, uh, how can I relax more efficiently? And I was like, I feel that. I really feel it. So I think what's really powerful about the space we're trying to create and that permission we're trying to create is letting people really feel into what do I need right now? What's the permission I need? Because for a lot of people, it's not lying down and staring into space or it's not mindfulness or yoga. It's you know, whatever you're needing right now. It's a cuddle from the cat, it's uh having a cup of tea, it's just letting your brain like you're feeling like there's a million things in your brain, you just need to let that roll around for a bit and just let it process out. But I think, yeah, in terms of quantification of it, there's also an important part to that as well, isn't it? Of being like, I want to put into this project plan an amount of time that is allowing for that reflection and for that processing and for the rest of the team of all the people who are working on it. I don't think you need to go, you know, 15% is the correct amount of rest we will all get. But I think you need to talk to the people involved, give the people permission to think about and to take the time they need and to really explicitly give that permission. I was working with an organization recently where we were talking about the different kinds of rest we need, and someone said, oh, it would be just life-changing if I could just like put my head down for a nap for about five minutes at lunchtime, but that wouldn't be okay in the office. And everyone in the team were like, that would be fine. That's completely fine. Definitely do that. And now she does that. And it's been a huge change for her. So just making a space that people can talk about their boundaries, talk about what they need. Like we haven't even mentioned the kind of accessibility part of this, and like for neurodivergent colleagues, for colleagues with different access needs, and for all of us, we've all got these different requirements. So let's not try and make a shape that everyone's rest looks like. Let's try and give that genuine, active and varied permission explicitly to people to be able to take the rest they need. But but yeah, I definitely see your instinct to like, I want a shape to this, to be able to put it in a project plan, to be able to put it in funding bids, which I think is really important. So I think it is very important for us to think about the space that we want to leave for rest, but perhaps not prescribe what's inside it.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

I'd really like to talk to you more about within your research, what's come up about accessibility and rest. Certainly, in my research, there's been a little bit around certainly people with chronic illnesses have said burnout's really exacerbated that. A number of women have said that misogyny, you know, we're all living in these very difficult societal structures and also kind of battling those as well as day-to-day burnout and they impact on burnout. I'd really be interested to know what your research has found out about that.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Yeah, I think that's really important. I think a big part of it is just this variety of need of rest. And like you said, particularly people with chronic illnesses tend to be really good at this because they're a bit better at kind of clocking into what uh what they need and being able to articulate that. It's also really come up with people in the radical rest network who are neurodivergent because they've got um a specific uh need that they might perceive as different. There's also, like you say, these big societal backgrounds and context to rest, particularly, say, for people of the global majority. And if you don't know already, or if listeners don't know already, the absolute first thing you should read about rest is res Rest as Resistance by Trisha Hersey. She calls herself the Knapp Bishop from the Knapp Ministry. You can find her on Instagram as well, and she talks amazingly about the history of black oppression through lack of rest. So how black bodies, literally, their rest has been weaponised and not permitted. So rest is also a form of resistance against all these things. Us all saying what do I need and taking the rest we need is a big step against oppression for all of us. And just like we were saying about trying to change the culture of our organizations, I don't ignore the fact that it's also cultural change in society we're trying to make. And I'm not saying, you know, that you or I is going to change all of these things tomorrow, but I do think it really matters to talk about the rest we need and the rest we take, and to treat ourselves and our fellow human beings as human beings. I think having those conversations actually makes a really big difference.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Totally agree. I think maybe because burnout and rest uh and terms like well-being is sometimes seen as woolly terms, even though they're not, they can be perceived as that. I think it means that we don't talk about them as much as we need to. And something else I'd love to talk to you about. In in my research, so many people just said, I'm so grateful to have had the chance to talk about this. Like we'd talk about incredibly difficult experiences that they'd had, really, really tough stuff that they'd experienced. But the act of talking about it and being heard and having someone listen to them for an hour while they spoke about their experiences was really, I guess, validating and help them process and also help them know that they weren't alone. It's something that so many of us experience. What do you think is the power of making this visible, of talking about in your case, in talking about rest and the importance of rest?

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I think just as you say, there's a real power in being able to say and articulate something that maybe you've not even really articulated to yourself yet. Also, just to know how common an experience this is. Like burnout, as you know, is extremely common in our sector. Rest or lack thereof is, as I say, 75 up to 100% is what I'm getting in surveys of people feeling they're not getting a lack of rest. And so, as devastating as those numbers are, and let's let's just clarify that like 20% is still too many if we get that number. I think it's really powerful for people to know that so many other people are dealing with it and feel that permission to find it important because there's a real discomfort to talking about it, and partly because it involves these big societal issues that you might feel helpless about. You might feel a lot of guilt, a lot of concern, a lot of panic talking about these things because they might be things that you don't feel able to talk about. There's also it's implicating, you know, perhaps your employer in doing something, again, consciously or unconsciously, doing something that's oppressing their workers. So I think there's a lot of really valid discomfort. Like it's it's not an accident that we all feel like this. It serves capitalism that we feel like this, and it serves to an extent our sector. Our sector has been running on goodwill uh for a long time. And so I think it's very powerful to speak that with other people who are in the same space, who are in the same sector. Yeah, first of all, to acknowledge that we're all going through it, second of all, to acknowledge that it matters, because when you hear someone else say, Oh, I'm not sleeping, my relationship's being affected, I can't get through the day at work without crying, you think that's terrible, we have to do something about that. And yet, if you're experiencing it yourself, you might not even think it's not normal. So I think it's really powerful to share those experiences. I should say, not just these tough experiences, but we're really intentional about sharing all the success stories, all the case studies, all the resources that can help you think about this and really celebrating every tiny action that people are doing. I know people who've been coming to the Radical Rest Network for a year and just started by, you know, just trying to say more literally, I went to the cinema last night, kind of tiny changes, and now they talk about it in their team meeting every week, and now they're having a bigger conversation with trustees about rest at work, and it just really builds by allowing people, again, this permission, this sense of permission to be able to all think about this together, all talk about this together, all believe it's important, and share the actions they can do about it. Because, like you said at the start, people feel really helpless and they really needn't like we're in this together, and there is a lot of things that we can do that the tiniest change matters. It really, really matters. You don't know the the ripples it's having around you in terms of that permission. So, yeah, I think it's really important to have spaces where we can allow that permission that, like, yes, it feels uncomfortable, and it's still okay for us to talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

100% agree with everything you said. I think, as I said before, understandably, because this is how it's been for a long time, it's a sector where there is too much to do because of structural issues, because of funding requirements, because we're often understaffed and under-resourced and trying to do too much. And there's definitely conversation to be had about should we stop trying to do too much? But because of that, it's just seen as an inevitability. I think it can feel really, really hopeless. And I'm really conscious in the research that I've been doing that I don't want to just present, well, isn't this all awful? Because I definitely could, that there's so many, so many really harrowing stories about how this has impacted on people's personal lives, on their careers, on organisations. But I feel like it's really important to have optimism because if we think there's no possibility for change, then there's no impetus to change. And I think, as you said, when we're trying to deal with massive structural issues that feel well beyond us, it can feel impossible. But actually, if we all start being a bit more intentional about what we do, if we start to think a bit more about our actions on others, things like one big thing that came from my research was the pudge adjust culture. Like, how many times does pudge adjust and then you end up doing a massive task that you weren't planning on doing and you feel really obligated to do it and you feel obligated to maybe go in on a day off or work till six o'clock one night? And I think you know, that that people aren't doing that with malintention, but it's maybe they're not doing it with any intention. They're not thinking about actually me saying could you adjust to this person might be the tipping point for burnout. So, how can we all act with that intention for ourselves, setting our own strong personal boundaries? How can we do that for others? And if we do that, what impact can that have on our own lives, our organization, the whole sector, and maybe even together we can make some kind of bigger structural change?

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Absolutely. It's not nothing. It's really not nothing. I think if you think we need to dismantle capitalism tomorrow, then of course this is not the way to do it. But I think Yeah, all of these little things we're doing is making tangible difference. And I can say I know that because we hear about it. Like that organisations are coming to the radical race network and are saying what's changed, and people are saying the effect that it's it's made for them to make these small changes and it builds into bigger changes. More and more, like you say, there's a conversation in our sector about this, which is brilliant, and like you say, it a lot of the conversation is about it's bad, which obviously it is, and about noting the impacts. But again, like you say, that loops back to that feeling of helplessness if all we're talking about is I feel so awful, I feel so stressed, I feel I haven't had a rest, I I feel burnt out. So definitely not to negate those things, those all absolutely need saying and expressing. But I think wherever we can talk about what we're doing to change, I think that makes an absolutely huge difference. It's good for you because you're telling yourself what you've done, it's good for the people around you because they're hearing it. If you're in a leadership position, I know from the research that you need to be doing it. Because I know we get leaders come to Radical Restor, I've talked to them in their organizations and they'll say, you know, I feel awful that my team are working through lunch or are working late. I feel like I have to work through lunch and to work late to be able to be on their side. And what the workers are saying is actually like, A, like, address it. Like if you know this is a problem, like do something about it. But B, like they need to see their leaders taking a lead on this, and they need to see their leaders going out at lunch break, finishing on time, not working every hour, not like you say, doing the could you just as well, pushing back on things, having boundaries, because that's the only way that workers will feel that sense of permission that's so important. So, yeah, it makes a huge difference everything we do.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

If we all model it, then I think things can change. I'm really conscious that a lot of people listening will be probably already bought into this. Like, probably people already think it's really important to rest, which is which is fine. That's uh that's really great and grateful for anyone who's listened. I guess it'd be really interesting to finish by saying, like, why is it so important to rest? So there are people who will be totally bought into this. There'll be other people saying, we've got 100 than one things to do. Why on earth should we be prioritizing rest? Like, what's the point? What's the point for people? What's the point for organizations? Why are we doing this? And I would really love to end by asking you that question. Like, why is rest so important?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Sure. I think if those people feel like they don't need more rest, first of all, uh good for them. I'm really glad for their situation right now. It's that it's not the situation of an awful lot of people in the sector. But why is it important? I think the only reasons we think it's not important are reasons that come from this discomfort, that come from our own personal reasons of not thinking we're good enough to have rest or or thinking it's bad to rest, organizationally thinking we're so stretched we can't possibly, it's impossible to rest. When the reality is, like, no one's gonna put those boundaries in except us. We're the only ones who are gonna do it. If you're a team leader and your organization, your director's super not bought into this and is gonna hammer everyone as much as they can, you do what you can right now. You do what you're able to. But I think we all know the moment you you sit back and think, what impact is it having? It's having a big impact on not just workplace and productivity, but on like the actual human beings we work with. I think yeah, you'll hear from people especially speaking about burnout, it's not sustainable in the sector, it's not a way of running the sector that can continue indefinitely. I think there's clear ways that do work that people are already showing. So yeah, I think if you can at all buy into the fact that the lack of rest and this burnout is not going well for you and your staff, then I think you can see different ways to do it, which is hopeful, which is what we need.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

I think that's a really powerful point. I I've kept thinking through all of this research, if we don't make a change, then where will it end? Because from what I can see, where it will end is people not wanting to work in the sector. Like what what would be the point? You could work in another sector, and I appreciate every sector will have burnout, but why would you work in a sector that's underpaid? And again, that's another cause of burnout, but why would we work in this sector, knowing that it's likely to harm you in some way? If we do really care about the sector and care about people, do we want to create a sector that we know is likely going to harm the people that come into this sector in the future? And it's also gonna harm the organisations in the sector and and harm the sector itself. I just keep thinking, yeah, if we don't make a change, then yeah, where's it end? What what's the end game?

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah, and like more than that, like people are making a change and it's great and it's working. Like the Museums Association putting out their well-being toolkit last year, two years ago, which specifically had kind of individual actions and organizational actions, like it was not all about go and do yoga, it was about what everyone can do. And that wouldn't have happened ten years ago, I don't think. This is it's really changing now, and yeah, like I say, lots of organizations are taking closure periods now when they need to. Lots of organizations in all kinds of sectors are going to a four-day week, and those are at the big end of the scale. I can't tell you how many people are now just talking about this more, like well-being is on the agenda now. So I think we need to, as much as we need to acknowledge how hard this is, I think that's not a difficult conversation to get by into. I think the moment I walk into a room and say rest is an issue, everyone's like, yeah, got you, yeah, no worries. I don't have any argument to that. I think the the thing we really need to push is like there's this theatre company who uh stopped doing shows for a couple of months so that they could really sit and think about, okay, what's our programming going to be, how are we gonna do this properly. There's this uh charity that included in their funding bid a week at the end so that everyone can really think about this, learn from it, process it before they're rushing off into the next thing. And there's so many little wins like this, big and small, that I think, yeah, like I say, as much as we need to talk about the stress, we need to celebrate the rest that we're having.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Are those examples on the radical rest network? Oh, thanks for asking, yeah. Well, yeah, I'm very excited. Would you like to tell us how to go get to the radical rest networks?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

I'm very excited to say we finally have a website which is a brand new deal. We started on Substack last month. So if you Google Radical Rest Substack, um then you'll find us and you can sign up to be on the mail outs uh to join our Zooms if you'd like to. But there's also a pinned post on there which got loads of the key resources. It's got the NAP Ministry, it's got examples of organizations who've made change, it's got resources for you to think through the kinds of rest you need. All of our kind of best tips, books that people have loved are on there too. So, and podcasts as well, if you're a podcast person like us. As well as our website, if I go and do workshops with networks, with organizations and things. So if anyone wants to contact me through the website, I can help them out with that as well. With I think it's helpful to have an external person to open this conversation because it is uncomfortable in teams, it is uncomfortable in organisations. It can help to have uh someone you don't know like me coming in and uh starting off the permission for that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Thank you. And Kate, you are doing such amazing work and real, really trailblazing in this area. It's so important, and I'm sure you've made such a difference. People in the sector already, I would really urge people to look at your resources and go to the network meetings. Like they're they're so great. You get the chance to rest, like you put into action the stuff that you talk about, and and there is a sense of not feeling alone in this. It's something that so many of us are dealing with, but there are things that we can all do to make a change. I think there's something really important about the the power of talking to someone that you don't know about this, and then starting that conversation organizations and realising I'm not the only person who's learning like this. Everyone's in this boat.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

And who gets our sector as well? Because like you can hear from your my partner will say, like, why on earth are you working this late? And I'm like, you don't know. But in the cultural sector, we know we know what the pressures are and we know what's real and not real in it, too.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

A number of people have said to me, well, you know, burnouts in every sector, yeah, yeah, it is, but I do think there's something quite particular. Maybe every sector thinks this, maybe I'm being exceptionalist, but I do think there's something about this sector that has like poor pace, short-term contracts. Like you can be burnt out before you've even got in the sector because you might have had to volunteer for a long time. Not that I would advocate for that at all, but it's so difficult to get in the sector, and then it can feel so hard to stay in and to work your way through the system and know where to go next. And and then we're also doing work that we feel passionate about, and many of us are also in our spare time being trustees or volunteering for other arts organisations. And people have talked about like feeling like they need to sort of help save the sector and keep the sector going. And with all of that, is it a wonder that we're feeling burnt out? Because it can feel like it's your whole life.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Definitely, exactly those reasons. I think, like you say, it's not just our sector, it is happening in other sectors too. But I think there's a specific flavour and elements of all those things you just said in our sector that make it a thing that we can understand amongst each other how it's got to this, can't we? And we can also understand from that how we can change it too.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Well, thank you so much, Kate. I'm going to take away from this that it is possible, and I love the idea of celebrating rest and celebrating good practice, because I really think that can change organisational norms and change the way we talk about this. That it's it's a good thing to rest. It's really good for ourselves, it's really good for organisations, and um, we should definitely make it a norm in this sector. It shouldn't be the norm to work for your lunch break, never take a holiday, never take toil, try and do a hundred things. Like what are the priorities? What can we do within our resources, and how do we make time for rest? Because that's better for all of us and will make us and this sector so much better and healthier. Thanks. Thank you. I'd love to hear from you if you have an experience of burnout or if you'd like a chat about my work. You can find more about my research and more tips for beating burnout on my LinkedIn profile and my website, both of which are linked to in the show notes. Thank you to Fundus Claw and the Arts and Humanities Research Council for funding this podcast and my research into burnout in the cultural sector, and to Professor Ben Wormsley of the University of Leeds for supervising the research. You can find a link to the School of Performance and Cultural Industries at the University of Leeds and the Centre for Cultural Value in You've Guessed It, the show notes. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast today, please like and subscribe. And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, give it a review to encourage more people to listen. Thank you for listening to Joyful Work Ending Burnout in the Arts Podcast. Our next episode will be the last episode in the series, where I'll be reflecting on the conversations I've had with Andrea, Chris, and Kate, and giving hints and tips for things we can all do to decrease and prevent burnout.