Interview with Bishop Sam Rodman: The Problem with Certainty - Truth, Faith, and the Lenses We Live By

In this episode of The Unintentional Heretic, I sit down with Bishop Sam Rodman, the 12th Bishop of the Diocese of North Carolina, to explore epistemology, the deeply human question of how we know what we know. Together we talk about the lenses that shape how we see reality, how Scripture, tradition, reason, experience, community, and the Holy Spirit help us discern truth, and why humility may be one of the most faithful postures in a world addicted to certainty.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome back to the unintentional heretic. Today I'm joined by the right Reverend Sam Rodman, the 12th Bishop of the Diocese of North Carolina. Bishop Sam and I are talking about epistemology, which is just an academic word for a deeply human question. How do we know what we know? How do we decide what is true? How do we discern what is trustworthy? How does scripture, tradition, reason, experience, community, and the Holy Spirit shape the way we see the world? And I know that may sound abstract or esoteric, like the kind of thing that belongs in a seminary classroom or a philosophy department, but I actually think there may be no more important question, because how we know what we know shapes almost everything else. It shapes how we read the Bible, how we understand God, how we interpret our experiences, how we respond to suffering, how we decide who belongs, how we engage people to disagree with us, and how we move through every second of the day. The reality is that humans do not simply experience reality as it is. We experience reality through lenses, some inherited, some chosen, some healed, some distorted. Many we're barely aware that we're wearing. And those lenses can open us up to mercy, humility, and truth, or they can trap us in fear, certainty, and control. So this conversation is not just about ideas. It's about what it means to be human. It's about how we grow. It's about discipleship. It's about the courage to ask better questions. And it's about what it means to follow Jesus in a world where there are so many people who are absolutely certain that they're right. So, Bishop Sam, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Thank you, Greg. It's a it's a joy to join you and to engage in this conversation. It's so important for the not only uh the people that we serve, but uh the things that we care about that are happening around us.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, let's start at 30,000 feet and then we'll kind of dive into the details. There's a quote often attributed to the Talmud that says, you don't see the world the way it is, you see the world the way you are. And how does that idea shape the way we think about epistemology, faith, and the lenses through which we interpret reality?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

So I think it's a great quotation. I think uh it's not only sound theology, it's uh it's probably sound psychology as well. And it's um your your image of the lenses is a good way to get at that question. It also reminds me of um, frankly, in from the New Testament studies that we all did uh around the way we understand who Jesus is and we see Jesus through our lens, through our eyes, through our experience and tradition. And it's important to be able to own that, but also own the limitations of that. And um, that's where we can begin to listen more carefully and more clearly to the perspective that others bring. So that whether it's talking about the teachings of Jesus or uh some of the biblical stories and narratives that have informed and shaped our faith, or whether it's about a contemporary issue that we're wrestling with, to be able to embrace the fact that our perception is our perception, not a whole picture, uh, is a great place to start a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

I I think it I agree with you. I think it fosters an inherent humility uh in acknowledging uh that we're not objective. Um, and there's that great quote by C.S. Lewis that if anyone thinks they're objective, you know, they're it he describes it as backhanded subjectivity. Um and and I think so some of the greatest uh cults uh throughout history are shaped by someone just saying, it's just me and my Bible, and I'm just gonna objectively read God's truth and being aware, unaware of their inherent subjectivity. Uh that I think offers us humility and curiosity as well. Right. Um so a lot of Christians were formed to think of truth as something fixed, obvious, and settled. But when we look at the history of the church, truth has often been something we've had to wrestle with, argue over, repent into, and slowly grow towards. And how do you think about that tension as a bishop?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

So it's a wonderful question because oftentimes, and this just sort of uh it's an occupational hazard with the office, people think that when you speak as a bishop, you are offering some kind of authoritative truth. And without trying to sidestep the importance of the role of leadership and the importance of being an interpreter for a community, which is part of what a bishop does in our oversight, um, the reality is that uh we are all uh we all bring our own limitations and uh and our own history to the questions that we're asked to wrestle with. And I liked your invitation to humility. Um, I'm fond of saying humility is not an option if we're paying attention. Um it's a natural consequence of the conversations we're engaged in. Uh so how do you speak with humility and also some degree of authority in a way that people can um both hear but also uh be in conversation or dialogue with so that there's room for response. And that's I think one of the challenges in today's world of exercising the office of bishop and speaking, especially in the teaching role. Um but uh teaching the the ancient uh history, and you know this uh as well as many of our listeners, uh a lot of uh the rich uh tradition of uh Jewish teaching reminds us, and Jesus embodies this, that you don't answer a question with an answer, you answer a question with another question. And that that engages uh and honors the fact that we're all bringing what we can to the conversation or the question at hand, but we are not in and of ourselves possessing the definitive word. What we possess is a piece of truth that God has given us. And we have to be clear about what that is, but also clear that it is not the whole truth, it's a piece of the truth.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

I like that. That's helpful. And and as we know, in our episcopal tradition, our bishops don't have a chair of infallibility where they speak uh infinite eternal truth. Uh, I think inherent within our tradition is acknowledging the complexity in that uh doctrine evolves, our understanding evolves. Uh, and we see that all through scripture. We see um all through scripture this humanity slowly evolving in their understanding of the divine, this movement from kind of a localized, tribalistic deity to a universal, compassionate uh God. And we over and over again we acknowledge that, and we acknowledge that that evolution didn't stop uh after the resurrection, but that it continues uh with our slow understanding of the widening circle of grace and compassion. Um, which makes me think, it brings you to the question, when someone says the Bible clearly says, or the other day I saw a bumper sticker that said, God said it, I believe it, that settles it. Uh so when when someone says the Bible clearly says, I usually think uh clearly to whom? Uh and so how do we talk honestly about the fact that scripture does not interpret itself? And how is that not something that's bad, but an invitation?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, and I I love that question because um, first of all, the the key element in the interpretation of scripture is the community that interprets it, not the individual. And that's that's uh a sweet spot uh for those of us in the Anglican tradition, because we tend to look to and emphasize the importance of the gathered body rather than an individual uh source of authority to interpret the scripture. A lot of that for me is rooted in a book that um I read prior to going to seminary, but it was um formative in my own understanding of how to interpret the biblical scriptures. Um, and it was a book by Leander Keck, who's uh since passed away, but at the time he was the dean of Yale Divinity School. And the book was called Taking the Bible Seriously, and the subtitle of the book was but not literally. And uh and the main thesis of the book is that uh uh historically uh scripture has been interpreted by communities of people in their own time and in their own context, and then it gets reinterpreted by people in other times in other contexts, and so to really understand the fullness of what scripture is saying to us, we have to attend to those layers and we have to own the peace that is ours and recognize that our peace isn't definitive any more than the earlier iterations were. But as we listen to them in conversation with each other, we get more clarity and more understanding about what the Holy Spirit is saying to us through scripture in our time in order to give a word that is both um clear as it can be, but also uh is never understood as absolute, um, but it's understood as part of an ongoing conversation that uh if we're being faithful disciples, we're having this conversation with God all the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

You know, I I think about uh the Episcopal Church, and historically, uh, you know, churches historically are some of the slowest uh organizations to shift, change, and grow. Uh we, you know, you have artists and philosophers on the front leading edge, you know, then architects and others. And the church institutionally is one of the slowest. But that being said, I would say the Episcopal Church historically has been about in step with the laws of the land in terms of uh women's ordination, uh, in terms of LGBTQ affirmation. Um but so but a question, you know, one of the things that the Episcopal Church is often accused of is uh uh allowing liberal culture uh to shape our doctrine, that we are appeasing uh liberal culture by there's still denominations that don't ordain women, like the Southern Baptists just affirmed that they won't do that. Others have uh accused us of that with our stance on LGBTQ affirmation and same-sex marriage. And so I guess my question to you is how do we know when the church is abandoning truth? And then how do we know when the church is finally being converted by the truth?

SPEAKER_00 10:53

I love the question. And again, uh what strikes me is there is actually uh within the biblical narrative a nice touchstone that gives us uh a guide around that very question you asked. And it's it's from the book of Acts, and it's when um they're having the debate about should the Gentiles be included uh in the fellowship of those who follow Jesus, or was it really intended to be for the Jewish followers of Jesus and exclusively uh for Jewish uh converts to Christianity? Uh and Paul, of course, was uh preaching and ministering and welcoming the Gentiles. And um and during all of this, as this begins to spill out, uh and this story actually happens within the Jewish context, um, and it um it speaks to the w wise words of a rabbi named uh I think it was Gamelliel, but I could have the name mispronounced. Um, but it was as as uh Peter and others are spreading the word about Jesus, um his his wisdom is to let them uh speak and let see what we learn from this, and that will tell us whether it's of God or not. Um so rather than the impulse uh being to silence and control, the impulse is to listen, to learn, uh to prayerfully discern and to see what unfolds. And that's a wonderful posture when we're wrestling with uh the questions of the faith and when we're engaged uh in dialogue about what it means to be, say, a faithful disciple. So to be able to actually fully engage in an active process where we don't have to decide in the moment, but we can listen and learn from the conversation and dialogue, and then pray to faithfully discern the spirit, seems to me to be a more faithful, all embracing, and to go back to your word, a more humble approach to our exploration of what constitutes truth.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

And this to me, what you just said, is so powerful. And I think this to me points to why epistemology is so critical, because our epistemology shapes our default stance or our default uh lens through which we engage others, whether we disagree. I remember back in my 20s when I was an evangelical, uh, my goal was to figure out exactly God's opinion on everything. And I figured each each new theological truth I was learning was like a brick in this wall, this foundation I was building. And I thought that if I could just get this foundation solid enough, then I'd finally have some interior peace. But when my lens was certainty, uh then there was no space for curiosity. There was no space for openness, there was no space for uh allowing a new perspective to seep in. That was a threat uh to my foundation because my epistemology was shaping the way I interacted with ideas and other people. And conversely, what you're describing is that inherent humility of acknowledging the truth of our subjectivity, the reality of humans' understanding of the divine as a slow, very slow evolutionary process. And it allows us to be open. It allows us to genuinely listen, not just intellectually, but with our hearts and how that uh engages with reality. So, that being said, how do you understand the role of the Holy Spirit in leading the church into truth? And conversely, in a negative way, as we've seen this happen in the church, how do we keep that from becoming a convenient way to baptize whatever we already wanted to believe?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Great. Um definitely a rich question. Uh, and there's a couple of layers uh that I want to respond, and hopefully they'll be clear. First, I I believe that the age that we're living in, and and I really date this back to the times of Acts and the New Testament and the early church, is the age of the Holy Spirit. And and that's a constant. Uh so uh my touchstone for understanding what it is we're called to do and be in our day and age uh is is definitely attuned to the question of how is the Holy Spirit moving among us? And uh I tend to not always, but more often than not, in uh in whenever I'm preaching, I open with a common refrain, um, Spirit of the Living God fall afresh on us. And um I I invite that prayer as a regular invocation in my own journey because I do believe the Holy Spirit is our guide into all truth. I think that was part of what Jesus promised. Once in a while, even I quote scripture, even as bishops. And um the the beauty of that invitation is um the invitation to stay curious, as you just said. I I have a friend, um also a priest in the church, uh, who you know, Nathan Kirkpatrick, who uh I've quoted him several times on this, uh, who likes to say, when the going gets tough, resort to wonder. Um and you said that our impulse is often when the going gets tough to go with certainty to what we know, to what we believe to be true. But oftentimes, when we're really in a situation of uh conflict or uh or pressure or crisis, what we need to do is to invite the Holy Spirit in to help us hold that space with more openness, more uh curiosity, um, and less fear and to trust that we are not alone in that space. And and that's how we have to anchor ourselves, especially in this day and age, when things change way too fast, and um there are so many competing versions of truth, many of which are demonstrably false, and yet it's hard to even um it's hard to even prove or demonstrate that because they come so fast and furious. Um but I wanted to get back to I think the last uh part of your question. How do we uh avoid simply uh championing our own perspective or you know our own bias? That's more challenging than we might think because uh often the um the predisposition we carry is not just our own, sometimes it is shaped by the community that we're part of. Yeah, and that's where some of these conversations can dip into the challenge of what's the difference say between a community and a cult? Um we always have to make space for checks and balances for um for within any community, there have to be ways of holding each other accountable. Um, and that's that's the way we keep ourselves honest uh in the larger picture.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Yeah, and I agree with that. As I as you said, it's scriptures interpreted communally uh and not individually. I think we we do get in that danger of if it's just us alone, our God will end up looking very much like us. Uh and I think that's that inherent danger. But if we live in community, honest community, they'll be willing to challenge, uh, they'll be willing to ask the hard questions and bring that same curiosity. So when I again just hearkening back to when I was uh conservative evangelical, one of the things I was taught uh was that quoting that verse from, I believe, Jeremiah, where the heart is deceitful above all things. And and so one of the things I was taught was not to trust my heart, uh, that I need to outsource my worldview to the authorities, to the denomination and our theological heritage. But if there was something within me uh that was being offended by our doctrine, then that was not the Holy Spirit, that that was my corrupted heart that has been liberalized by culture. And I remember, and I also think that's one of the most harmful beliefs that I was taught. Uh, because I mean, really, that's the way of a cult, ultimately, because you you're you're no longer independently thinking, you're just a blind follower. Right. And I remember in my experience that when I started just looking at the fruit of these belief systems, for example, the refusal to ordain women or allow them even to preach or teach, uh, the total exclusion of the LGBTQ community. I I watched brilliant women in our church over time of, you know, slowly metabolizing this doctrine. It was like watching their lights dim. And I saw the overt pain of, we had this wonderful queer couple that were in their 40s. They'd never been to church before. And at this point, I was hiding the fact that we were PCA. It wasn't in our bulletin, it wasn't on our website. And they came in and joined, and very sadly I was operating in kind of a don't ask, don't tell policy, which I thought would kind of be this razor's edge I could walk to navigate it. But when this beautiful couple found out that we were PCA, they called me up one day and they said, Are we PCA? I just looked at the PCA website and it's condemning us as sinful and saying that our marriage is heretical and harmful and bad. Is this the position of our church? And I hemmed and I hawed. And at the end of the day, they knew that I had been operating in this don't ask, don't tell way, but uh I was not fully supportive and affirming. And they were crushed. They were devastated. Uh this was the first church community they'd ever been a part of, and now they felt profoundly rejected. So the two things that lit my fuse to begin to wrestle with my epistemology was seeing the blatant harm to women and seeing the blatant harm to this LGBTQ couple, and thinking, I got into ministry to love and support, and I feel like I'm doing damage. I'm becoming a spiritual abuser or I've committed abuse. And so it got me to wrestle again with what is my lens for how I interpret? And as I went pretty quickly to actually trusting my heart as one of the variables in determining my epistemology and made a shift, it was really out of control certainty and fear, which internally I felt very little fruit of the spirit. And as I opened up to love and saying, Of course, we should ordain. Women. And if there's a couple that is wanting to be together in this hard world to grow in vulnerability, trust, and love, then I want to do anything in my power to support them as a pastor. And I found that as I made that shift, away from being the spiritual police that was determining who was in and who was out, that all of a sudden I felt this anxiety and fear just sloughing off of me. But in that process, and I felt that the fruit of the spirit, I actually started feeling some love and joy and peace and patience and kindness. But it got me wrestling with, okay, then what are the variables for determining truth? What are the factors of the epistemology? And we're, you know, of course you're well aware of uh uh Hooker's you know three-legged stool. He didn't call it that, but it's a great name for it of scripture, tradition, uh, and reason. Um but in addition, be in addition to those categories, we can maybe add experience. But how do you understand in your experience those sources of authority all working together?

SPEAKER_00 23:00

So uh for me, um, my level of trust goes up when there are competing sources of authority that are informing my um interpretation, my understanding. Um so and uh I like to think of um scripture, tradition, and reason. I I I like to add experience as well as uh as kind of a wholly expansive uh understanding of how God speaks to us through different channels. And um and I think Hooker's intention was to honor the fact that uh when we're trying to really hear what God is inviting us into, um we need to be aware that there are many ways that God speaks and um and to keep our hearts, minds, bodies, and spirits uh open to those different sources of wisdom, of truth telling, and of insight, which is a long way of saying uh I think uh the bottom line is when we look to Jesus uh and the example of both his life and teaching, but mostly through the lens of his relationships and the way he attended to people, he saw them, he heard them. They were never invisible to him. And he understood that they too were a channel of God's spirit, and he invited all of us not only to recognize that, but to go deeper in our own relationships with each other to discover that. And I I think of the gospel from just this past Sunday, where it is anchored in Jesus' invitation to all of us to welcome all, uh you know, in a nutshell, that is his message, and there are no exceptions to that. Um as um presiding bishop Edmund Browning said, no outcasts in this church. Um, and and it is it's crushing and heartbreaking when people are excluded by, especially by a church, uh whether as an institution or as a community. And I think there's a strong and uh solid biblical uh precedent for if you're really listening to uh the journey that Jesus is inviting us on, his way, as it were, um, which is also the way of the cross, uh, it's about challenging even the um current wisdom of the day. Jesus was a thorn on the side of the religious authorities in his tradition. We know this. Um so he was not afraid to advocate and um and frankly to put uh himself on the line in numerous situations of healing and uh and other social settings where he prioritized and preferenced the need of someone who was at that time in that current society um an object of scorn and rejection. And whether it was um tax collectors, sinners, uh you know, these are the people that Jesus embraced with love. Um and that's not a simplistic sentimental statement. Um, but as as you It's revolutionary, right, exactly. That's life-changing and world-changing.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

So yeah, I think that notion of watching Jesus constantly moving towards people who were in categories that he was taught to be afraid of or taught to shun. And you named them, I mean, tax collectors, sinners, uh Samaritans, uh centurions, over and over again, he that the circle is widening. Uh, or even think about uh Peter and Acts when he saw the sheet being lowered and what he thought were eternal truths about purity codes were thrown in their head. Do not call unclean what I've made clean. And I think to this day, we live in a cultural context that definitely is oftentimes dualistic, binary us versus them, constantly creating categories of othering. And Jesus was constantly embodying the reality that there is no other, there's just us. And to me, I think that is a radical mission uh of the church that that continuously calls us to widen that circle of grace, that everyone belongs. There, and I love that quote: there there are no outcasts. So that being said, um what do we do with the fact that faithful, intelligent, prayer for people, prayerful people often come to different conclusions? Does that, in your experience, does that mean that truth is relative, or does it mean we need deeper humility about our access to truth?

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Um definitely um more of the latter. We need deeper humility. I see uh some of our disagreements and some of our conflicts as an invitation to go deeper in relationship with other people who don't aren't seeing uh aren't seeing a particular um piece of our common life in the same way. And what a gift. What a gift to be given the opportunity to see the world from someone else's perspective and to learn something that may reshape our own. Um I think that's at the heart of what it means to become beloved community. I think that's the work that the Holy Spirit is doing on a daily, weekly, um, and sometimes moment by moment basis in weaving us together. It's um and rather than convert someone to my understanding, um, to be able to be true to my own convictions and at the same time open to some insight that someone else is bringing to the conversation, it just broadens the whole um experience of what it means to be a disciple. I and I think it's a wonderful um invitation. Uh sometimes uh some of uh my theology reverts back to uh songs that I learned when I was growing up and in church school and vacation Bible school. Um and one of my favorites, as you probably know, is deep and wide, deep and wide. There's a fountain flowing deep and wide. These conversations call us to go deeper and then it widens out our understanding of what God is up to and how we are being called to listen and to learn from each other, and how that actually deepens what it means to uh uh to wrestle with the truth, with each other. And what a holy thing. What a gift.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yeah, that makes me think you know, what came to mind when you were talking about that was I believe that the canary in the coal mine from when we're operating uh in a harmful uh epistemology is dehumanization. When we turn the other person from a three-dimensional complex human being with story, feelings, and emotions into a caricature, uh, into a straw man. And uh what you're inviting us to is moving away from that. And moving away from that is probably not gonna be through an argument about the subject itself. It's gonna be through hearing their story. It's gonna be putting flesh back on that caricature and realizing their three-dimensional complexity. Oftentimes, suffering is very good at helping us clarify. There was a town that I read about uh in the South, I forget which state, but it was a very divided town, uh, red and blue, politically very divided. And it was uh the hostilities were getting intense uh with people stealing yard signs and defacing things. And but then there was a flood. Uh, and all of a sudden most of these houses were submerged, and a lot of these people had little fishing boats, and they were just going around from house to house rescuing people, and they weren't asking them about their political affiliation, that the suffering blew away the dross of these superficial categories and reminded us of our humanity. Uh, and it's sad that oftentimes it takes suffering to do that, but I think there's another way of us pausing and getting curious uh about their humanity. It also reminds me of the comedian Sarah Silverman uh after uh Trump won the first election, that she was in a very, you know, liberal bubble, progressive Hollywood bubble, and she realized she was only hearing this insular talk. So she decided to go across the country and have dinner with people that were uh part of the MAGA movement to understand them as people. And then she made a show about it. And it was just beautiful to see the dialogue shift from finger pointing accusations and dehumanization back to the heart of things. It's not that they ended up agreeing with each other, but they remained connected on a human level. And I think that that is the call, another call of the gospel, uh, to never allow dehumanization to define. And that's and that's a temptation, whether you're far right, far left, uh progressive, conservative, it just doesn't matter. That is a human temptation to dehumanize the other. Uh, and and I often think, especially when we feel dehumanized, uh, it's very easy to dehumanize the ones that are saying that about us. And but we are called to, I think one of the most radical teachings of Jesus of all, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. Inherent in that is a refusal of dehumanization and recognizing that good people, uh, smart people, open-hearted, prayerful people can disagree and we can still love one another. And that to me, hopefully, in the Episcopal Church, we have a wide enough tent, a big enough umbrella, a large enough table to hold all of that. I mean, we see that in the Book of Common Prayer. We see theology that sounds radically Calvinistic almost, and then others that seem, you know, powerfully uh Arminian, you know, in their teaching. And it's all together that we hold this tension uh and trust the movement of the Spirit slowly over time. So, Bishop Sim, are there any beliefs that you once held more tightly that you now hold with more humility or curiosity?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

So this is such a great question, and um, I think the way I want to respond is to say that uh one of the things I've learned in interfaith conversations and dialogues with people from other faith traditions is to hold my um hold hold the place of Christianity in those conversations differently. Um and what I mean by that is that um I believe and still um continue to experience the compelling um the compelling passion uh and and depth of faith that being a disciple of Jesus is really what anchors my life. What I find is that in conversations with people from other faith traditions, my own faith is strengthened, but not because I am uh in a conversation that uh I walk away from feeling, well, I have the truth, and this other uh person of faith is missing the truth. I actually understand what I bring to that table uh in a more faithful way, uh, and I'm able to hear from someone else in a different faith tradition what is compelling about their faith and belief, and how their passion guides and directs their life, and how their discipleship is also something worthy of attention and worthy of appreciation. And um, so it's it's not so much the tenets of the faith that have shifted for me, but how I live into and bear witness to my faith has changed because it's not from a place of um superiority or uh that I have something that others don't, but it's from a place of uh deeper appreciation for what others bring, which also helps me to pay more attention to what it is that I need to bring and bring with clarity and with authenticity.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Yeah, I think that that really resonates. And it makes me think about, again, I'm just hearkening back to my my days of real certainty of my theological positions when I was conservative evangelical. Um, and it it it was inherent to be certain, and there was almost equating faith with certainty. Uh now, and then it reminds me of, I believe it was Anne Lamotte who said uh that the opposite of uh faith is not doubt, the opposite of faith is certainty. Uh so how would you uh detangle or uh highlight the differences between faith and certainty?

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah, and I I love Anne Lamotte, I love that quote. Um, one of my uh favorite books by her is Bird by Bird, which was actually a book about writing, but it's also a book about faith. Um yeah, certainty for me leaves me cold. Um, and it doesn't do justice to the mystery of God, frankly. Um, and if we worship a God who is mysterious, but also makes uh God makes God's self known to us in in very particular ways in our tradition by becoming one of us, by incarnating um the incarnation, the gift of Jesus, is that um deep desire to be known and yet still be beyond knowing. And um, I think there's a teaching uh in that reality for all of us about what faith can be and needs to be, but it's a far cry from certainty, in my experience. Um, and again, I I'll I'll quote scripture um, especially on this subject. I love the passage from Hebrews that talks about um faith is the conviction of things not seen, uh, and uh um the assurance of things that are hoped for. And and for me, that really gets at the heart of what it means to be a person of faith is you have to let go of certainty and you have to lean into trust, you have to lean into um an awareness that we do not ever possess ourselves the whole truth. What we what we are given is a piece, and we are we're responsible for being faithful stewards of that piece of the truth and to stay open to the truth that others are bringing into the conversation, the quest, the journey. Um, and the there's rich uh there's richness in that companionship and in those conversations. Um, and I wouldn't trade that for anything. Uh, I I think that really is at the heart of what Jesus modeled for us. And uh so that's what I'm trying to live as best I can into that invitation uh day in and day out.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

I love that. And it it it made me think about that. I I think oftentimes we have these conversations about epistemology and certainty and faith. And I think that we can sometimes approach it predominantly cognitively, as if our epistemologies are based in reason. But I'm the older I get, the more I'm convinced that paradigms and epistemologies are predominantly emotionally driven and not always intellectually driven. For example, when I think about the time when I was wanting certainty, uh, which I equated certainty and faith, but the reality is certainty requires no trust. Faith requires trust and vulnerability. Certainty does not. But I think that I was clinging to a binary faith and certainty because my interior world felt so discombobulated and fragile that I needed things to be certain. I emotionally needed things to be certain. But as growing in faith over the years, it's shifted from certainty now actually is scary to me. If someone says they're certain about this position, you know, my my alarm bells start ringing. But conversely, someone in the space of faith and trust in not knowing in the vulnerability, I find that, as you're saying, the fruit of that often is curiosity, the few fruit of that is humility. Um and I and I find that pragmatically, relationally, the fruit is love that comes from that uh disposition. So that brings me to this question. What is what is the role of love in knowing truth? Not a sentimentality, but but love as the deep logic of God, as the very essence, that God is not loving, but God is love. So, how does that play a role in knowing truth?

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Um again, beautiful question. Um, and the relationship between love and truth is deeply embedded in in the New Testament story and the teachings of Paul as well as of Jesus. And uh a letter that's attributed to Paul, whether he wrote it or not, is is still a debate for scholars to sort out. The letter to Ephesians. Paul talks about speaking the truth in love, and that that is a gem uh of what I would call uh a centerpiece of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, that uh uh that I continue to again pay attention to, to honor, to revere, and to recognize that most of my life bumps up against my feeble attempts to do that faithfully. And and and be okay with that, because yeah, actually that's what it's all about. Um there there is no expectation that I get it right each time, but that I keep working towards that. And that feels to me like a place I can grow in. And um, and I'll you know, I'll give you an example. Um there have been times in my life where I feel like there's there's something that I need to say to someone or to some group or in some context, and I also have a question about whether the timing to share that is right or not. And the way that I try and discern is this the right time to give voice to this, is to ask the question, is it a loving thing to say in this moment? And that's a guess. I'm doing my level best to guess. I don't really know what the other person is or the other or the group that I'm speaking to, or the particular moment that I'm trying to um uh speak into uh in terms of what's going on around us, whether that is in fact the loving thing. But uh, and this will sound like a paraphrase of um uh of that very familiar quote uh um which is uh around um I'm gonna get the quote right. I I I think that my desire to please you does in fact please you. Um I I think you know the quote that I'm referring to. Um in any case, where I'm going with this is that by asking the question, is it the loving thing to do? That in and itself is a loving question. So if I if you ask the loving question, even if you don't do the loving thing, um at least you're on the right path. And and of course, that's the reference in the quotation, um, which uh you know was written by Thomas Merton, but it it it gets at that um you know, if we're genuinely uh Intentional and serious and paying attention to the well-being and um and the the health, well-being, and wholeness of others in what we say and what we do, we are moving in the right direction. It doesn't mean we've achieved anything, but we are on the way, on the path that Jesus calls us to.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

That that allows for such gentleness and grace to allow humans to human. Uh, you know, I think about your role as a bishop, and within our uh uh episcopal hierarchical polity, there's that's a lot of authority as a bishop. It's a lot of authority. And I would imagine I've always wondered how people, and and you've just announced your uh upcoming retirement, but you've been active as a bishop for over 10 years now, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:46

No, actually, I'm in my tenth year.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

You're in your 10th year.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

It's over nine years, but I'm in the tenth year.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

And I'm always amazing, you know, to me, I would think for as I've looked at my own life, probably as a people pleaser, or if I don't apply that gentle lens of gracefulness with myself to allowing my myself to be human, I would imagine that the weight of all of these decisions you have to make and thinking if you have to get them right and not really make a mistake, or if you make a mistake, you would just spend all night beating yourself up. Uh, can that that would just fry someone out quickly. But to me, the very fact that you've been in this role as a priest long before that, uh, but as bishop for 10 years, and every time we talk, you've still got joy. Uh, you've still got light in your eyes, you've still got hope. You're operating. And to me, that that's only possible if you've been applying this grace and gentleness uh to yourself through that process. Uh, and I think that that your resilience, your longevity, and your joy is a testament to operating within that paradigm of asking the loving question and being graceful and gentle, whether it goes perfectly or not. Uh so that that's not a question that's just an aside of saying, I've I see that and appreciate that. Um, well, let me just wrap up with this question. So if someone's listening who grew up in a very settled, let's say very certain faith and now feels like the ground's shifting beneath them, what would you want to say to them?

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Take off your shoes. You're walking on holy ground. This is the place you've been called to. Know not only that the Holy Spirit is with you, but there are others who have gone before you who stand ready to walk with you on this part of your journey. This is the invitation to the journey of faith. Know that you will find the one who has already found you when you follow that call. You are in the you are in a holy place.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Well, I can't think of a better place to wrap up this interview, Bishop, and thank you. I that actually choked me up. So thank you for your time, for your wisdom, for sharing your heart. Uh, it's a it's a gift uh to me, the diocese of North Carolina, I just think to anyone listening. Uh, I'm really grateful for our conversation. Thank you for making the time.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Well, Greg, I love the conversation and love that you're doing this and uh keep on putting the word out. It's a good word to God's people, all God's people, in a time that we need to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

Thanks, Bishop Sam. Thanks for listening to the unintentional heretic. Until next time, keep asking questions.