E01 - Neurogenic Integration: The Mystery of Spontaneous Movement

What if your client’s tremor, stretch, or undulation wasn’t a symptom—but a sign of healing? In this episode, Alex sits down with physical therapist, somatic educator and TRE Provider, Joel Begin to explore the natural, spontaneous movements that often arise in bodywork, movement therapy, and somatic healing—but are still largely misunderstood.

Joel shares the story behind his 2022 paper, “Characterizing a Common Class of Spontaneous Movements,” a collaborative work that brings together perspectives from across the globe to map out how tremors, shakes, and fluid movements emerge across therapeutic, spiritual, and cultural contexts. From TRE® and myofascial unwinding to Qigong and authentic movement, Joel helps us reframe these expressions not as random or pathological—but as beneceptive and healing.

Together, we explore the potential of spontaneous movement as a doorway into nervous system regulation, trauma resolution, and embodied intelligence. This episode invites you to see what might already be happening in your sessions with new eyes—and perhaps, to trust the body just a little more.

Key Highlights:

• [00:02:00] The Paper That Sparked It All: Characterizing a Common Class of Spontaneous Movements
• [00:08:00] What Is Myofascial Unwinding?
• [00:14:30] Modalities That Evoke Spontaneous Movement
• [00:17:45] Spiritual Practices & Movement States
• [00:24:00] Case Study: Spontaneous Movement After Surgery
• [00:27:00] When Movement Feels Uncomfortable
• [00:33:00] TRE®, Trauma, and the Polyvagal Lens
• [00:38:45] Understanding Freeze Through Biotensegrity
• [00:41:00] What Makes These Movements Arise?
• [00:43:30] Creating a Container for Curiosity

Links & Resources

• 📝 Joel Begin’s 2022 Paper:
   “Characterizing a Common Class of Spontaneous Movements”
   Read the full paper in the International Journal of Therapeutic Massage and Bodywork
• Joel Begin’s Practice – Creative Pathways PT
• Continuum Movement: https://continuummovement.com/ 
• Somatic Experiencing by Peter Levine: https://www.somaticexperiencing.com/about-peter 
• Polyvagal Theory by Dr. Stephen Porges: https://www.stephenporges.com/ 
• Myofascial Release John F. Barnes

Find us Online: 

Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/ 

Instagram: @neurogenicintegration

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

And I am Celia Sun Shields. Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. Well, I am super excited to be sitting down today with Joel Began. And Joel is a physical therapist based in Hanukkah, New Hampshire. And let me tell you a little bit about Joel and how I how Joel first came on my radar, and then I'll tell talk a little bit about the conversation, the exciting conversation that we're going to have today about neurogenic tremoring and spontaneous movement. So Joel is a physical therapist, a somatic health educator, a primitive reflex clinical specialist, a TRE tension and trauma release provider, a safe and sound protocol provider, as well as a musician and a personal trainer and an exercise specialist. So very broad and diverse background. And he's the uh physical therapist at his business creative pathways PT. So, Joel, thanks so much for coming on for a conversation today.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Oh, thanks for having me, Alex. I'm super excited to be here and to chat and to have some fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah. Super cool. Well, so let me just talk a little bit about how I got to know you. And then also I want to talk a little bit about what it maybe it maybe is on the menu. Every time you and I have spoken, our conversation's been a little bit meandering. So I don't want to make too many promises because I don't know for sure where our conversation will go. But we can at least set some sort of intention. So anyway, I think it's probably been about two years now. And so Joel is a TRE provider. So TRE is the modality of neurogenic tremoring developed by Dr. David Briselli. And Joel's a provider, I'm a provider. And on a Facebook forum for providers sharing information, I noticed there was a thread. I think it might even have been about physical therapy, but Joel posted a paper that he authored along with some others in 2022. And we'll that'll definitely be something that we cover in today's conversation. But it was a paper about describing spontaneous movement, including the kind of tremoring we see in neurogenic integration and TRE. And he sent me a copy of the paper, and I read it, and it was like a complete breath of fresh air to me because it it put into language, it was a collaboration with, I think, four or three, four other professionals, or Rolfer and Joel can tell us who else, very a little bit international. I think somebody's from Brazil is in there. And but it basically, the really quick summary that you can, I hope I don't get it wrong, is in lots of therapies, movement in manual therapy modalities, movement therapy modalities, some spiritual practices, spontaneous movement arises. And sometimes that's shaking and tremoring, sometimes that's stretching, sometimes that's undulations. And the question being articulated in this paper is what do we know about this phenomenon? And there are modalities that utilize it, like TRE, like myofascial unwinding, continuum movement, et cetera, et cetera. There's modalities based around this principle, but what do we actually know physiologically and neurophysiologically and otherwise? And and the breath, part of the breath of fresh air that I felt in reading the paper was in many ways, I have exactly that same question. So for me coming in as a bodywork therapist, structural integration trained, and then later in Feldenkrais movement training, you know, from the very beginning when TRE first came on my radar, that was exactly it was like, wow, I'm seeing this. I've had this happen. It's happened to me in body work, it's happened to me in acupuncture. When I'm doing bodies, I see this sometimes. And it was only until I came across TRE did I even find somebody who was even talking about it in a substantive way. You know, it's sort of mentioned here and there in some of my training, but not a lot. And so what I really appreciate about Joel's paper is just asking the question of, yeah, where do we see this? How is it being languaged? And how might we begin, and I like the word begin, to ask meaningful questions about this, and also acknowledging that this is largely absent from the existing body work literature, manual therapy literature, physiology, fascial literature. There's just not a lot out there, I think is the honest answer. And so it was published in 2022, and I read it and I thought, oh, great, what an intelligent framing of this conversation and intelligent questions being asked. And and I hope that this leads to sort of more steps in the general inquiry. So, in any case, so I got this paper, and then Joel and I connected on Zoom over several conversations, and I got to hear not only what the led up to the questions that he and the his team put together in this paper, but it is the very interesting personal journey and professional journey that that sort of put you in this place, Joel, of asking these questions. And I and so uh I've been wanting to have you on the podcast for quite a bit now, and so it's taken some time for you and I to schedule. And so anyway, so what do we want to cover? We want to cover your paper for sure, but I want to cover your personal background because that your own story of spontaneous movement and health was very interesting when you first shared it with me. And and I also want to hear about your the really unique ideas that you bring into your treatment approaches. I think all of these things would be really interesting for our conversation today. Sure. So that's a quick preview. Yeah, thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Super happy.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Yeah. Awesome. Well, Joel, what if we uh let's start with your paper? Is that okay?

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Sure, yeah, yeah, we can go there.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, and then we'll probably backtrack from there. So what's fine? Tell me the story. How did you how did this idea start to formulate? How did you assemble this team?

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Oh, Albert, yeah. So it's interesting. How did this come about?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah, I'll just but I better read the title too. So it's the paper is called Characterizing a Common Class of Spontaneous Movements. And it's in the journal, International Journal of Therapeutic Massage and Body Work, Volume 15, Number Three, September 2022. So that's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

And it's a fun read. It's a fun read if you haven't read it.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

It's a fun read.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

You know, it's kind of light. I mean, that's the thing. You know, we didn't put a tremendous amount of uh heavy scientific work into it, but we did try to tell the stories of individuals that had some of these experiences and then some of the experiences that that me and one of one of the researchers had in our movement world of working with individuals with spontaneous movements. But yeah, a super fun paper that that really did just bring in the question of what are spontaneous movements and how can we pull together some ideas to better describe them. So we came together in a in an interesting way. Booterman was the which was one of the initial researchers that kind of did, I forgot his first paper. He's basically out of South Wales or New South Wales and Australia on the environmental science. So I think his specialty is in like soil sciences, but he was bringing together a paper about fascial unwinding, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

And I reached out to him and said this was a phenomenal paper, you know, what can you pause briefly and just quickly define fascial unwinding? I'll probably do this as we go. Like just I'll pause you just to get a quick definition.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Sure. So I think fascial unwinding, so it's a form of that uses spontaneous movement, and I believe there's mild fascial unwinding, but fascial unwinding, I think, was at the time what he put together in just this description pertaining to the fascial system and its characteristics of being able to be an unwinding phenomenon. I think he looked at a couple different theories behind that at the time. I don't know if that helps.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

But just describe it really in layman's terms. So I think of, I'll do my version of it, because I was John F. Barnes trained to that sort of one common sort of myofascial release system. And there, myofascial unwinding refers to the idea that sometimes you're doing body work and then a person might start to spontaneously move. Sometimes it's tremoring, but that's not the most common expression that we see that we describe as myofascial unwinding. It might be twisting or stretching or these sorts of types of movements. And the interpretation in this context is that the myofascia or the connective tissue is the movement is happening in order to unravel for a better word, or stretch or reorganize.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Reorganize, integrate, lots of words. Lots of words, yeah. And I think that's sometimes what can make it also difficult in exactly defining. The other one is it usually feels like it's something that we're not doing. I think that's a big one. So a lot of times, if you're the practitioner behind there, the individual might say, Whoa, you're moving me. And the practitioner might say, No, I'm not. I'm following you and you're moving. So sometimes that experience can actually be both ends. And I got questions there, maybe it is. But yeah, I think the body's ability to basically unravel, unwind, reorganize, integrate, all of these things come together. I think when we start to talk about fascial unwinding in particular. I know like Robert Schleipe has some particular theories behind this work, John Barnes has some particular re theories behind this work. Within the paper, that was something that we looked at, different disciplines that sort of have this phenomenon happening with within that pra their practices. And like you said, some are movements, some are spiritual experiences or practices or they're yeah, kundalini yoga, the shaker tradition, some of these, yeah. Right. So it depends on where you are also too, and when you're kind of what window you're looking at and where you're coming from, but all seem to have this phenomenon.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

So yeah, yeah. Okay, so go back to the team. So there's the one guy in in Australia, and he was he had been doing some fascial unwinding research. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yes. All of us had a little some experience with this that we were able to say, well, this is what is this? And then so I connected with him. And then he sent me two, you know, said, Oh, that's something I was really interested in, but not so much right now. Here's my other friend, Dorothea. So Dorothea Vlosteen up in up in Canada, she is an IT researcher up there who does a bunch with structural integration work. Oh, sorry, not structural integration. She looks at she works a lot with Ten Segrity in the IT world. And um What is IT?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

What is IT?

SPEAKER_03 12:00

So just like technology.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

And so so I connected with her, and from our conversations, there was a paper that had begun that she had started, or all three of the other researcher is uh Fernando, aren't there? Uh I'll find it. Um I call him Fernando.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Fernando Bertolucci.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Bertolucci, yes. And I always stumble on his name.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Is he the Brazilian? Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 12:27

He is from, yes, yes, he's from there. Or Sao Pa Sao Paulo, is that I think so.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

I think that's in Brazil, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

So is he a rolfer? Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 12:38

He was a roller, I believe. I believe so. Yeah, he's an MD too. So he comes from the MD background, and I believe he's also a roller, yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Gotcha. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

And he had developed his his own sort of working with the body at that time, I think muscle repositioning. So he has a method and that he actually works with, and I think it was actually 10 secretary touch it changed. So again, lots of versions and how we are interacting with this, but that was his work. So together they had started a paper a little while back. I want to say, who when did I meet them? I was in seven or something. I want to say it started like early 2020, 20, you know, three or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Oh, what so quote yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

So that's when it began these ideas, and I jumped in as the end of the wagon saying, Whoa, there's a paper going, can I help out? And they're like, Well, we don't know really sure where it's gonna go. And so we got long story short, we got it started back up, we got communication going again, and then we I was also a little bit of time frame for when it first had developed, so bringing in some different ideas and concepts, and when it surely came into form. But oddly enough, during that time when we were putting it together, we got three people that just jumped right in with emails from uh coming from different researchers within the group that were just that said, I have spontaneous movements and I found your paper and what was available for at the time, and how can I get involved? And it was whoa, here's our some of our folks to study about this. So those were where the case studies came from, case reports came from.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

I see on that.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

And then we just compiled those, took a couple case reports that we had from working in the clinic together, or working in the clinic separately that we had Fernando and I, and then put them together, and then broaden some of the language around it to explore that more.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, yeah. What were some can you so yeah, what were some of the modalities that you considered or include and both yeah, bodywork disciplines, movement disciplines? You may not remember every single one, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

I got a copy of it here.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

I made sure to put it up because it was Yeah, a snapshot of the different approaches that you co that you brought together to that you felt had this commonality of spontaneous movement as significant enough to be lumped brought together in this comparative way.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Yeah, so we looked at if we looked at basically some of the movement practices. I think at the time we were looking at like continuum. Continuum was one with Emily Conrad with sort of the undulating movements that she had. We looked at a spontaneous qigong of some of the movement practices that were there. I don't think we looked at any of like Feldenkrais's work at the time.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

I think it was Hannah Somatics in common.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Hannah Somatics was in there, right, right. Yeah. There was one other that I think was a dance, and I think that was authentic movement, was we looked at Mary Stark's with some of her movement there. The somatic experience work by Peter Levine. But TRE was on there obviously as well, being a movement sort of.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

And when just and this is maybe me jumping uh in our narrative flow, but what because you had all when you wrote this in 2022, or I guess that's when it was published, but when did you do your TRE training?

SPEAKER_03 16:04

We'll come back to that, but just Yeah, I think that was I think that was in 2000. Because we would finish the paper a year before it takes a while to go through checks and balances. I want to say it might have been around the same time, 2002. Yeah, yeah. Most uh yeah, I think so. I think so.

unknown 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

2002, 2021. Yeah, yeah. Similar time frame. So anyway, okay, yeah. So TRE, somatic experiencing that you know has yeah, what yeah, what is it?

SPEAKER_03 16:34

TRE came in after. My training came in after the you know, you began this, okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Okay, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Look, this is where it was really interesting because like I didn't really know. So everything I looked at and I was able to find bits and pieces, which makes it really interesting. But yeah, so kind of looking at like the movement aspects of that, but then we also looked at like the manual therapy aspect, specifically looking at tensegrity touch, which was one of Fernando's applications. Then there's the myofascial unwinding and John Bond, but I believe there's another version they also had of that, also called like myofascial induction, which they've changed some of the language around. But and then there was another individual we looked at, Dorco, he was a PT, but had a very similar approach of putting together tactile stimulation and then working with the body's inherited flows of movement and in more of a therapeutic way. So we captured a little bit of there. I'm sure there's a lot more out there. Yeah. But starting to paint this picture of look.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Right, the how broad this is. That's what part partly you were trying to. And then also you like you you referenced the kundalini shakers.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Yeah, yeah, the shakers, right? Some of the working with the deities and things like that, or the gods that you know, but yeah, I think there was another African culture that we looked at too, and I'm gonna get the name we pronounced what kendombly the condomble or it's I think pretty much. South American, sorry, yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

But bringing into these like trans states during movement to to act as like a stimulus to again come into some of these spontaneous movements that all of these sort of together have said have health-promoting benefits to them.

unknown 18:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

And I think that was the big main case.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

You guys, I don't did you guys invent this word? If you did, I'm so proud of you. But there's a cool word in there. Let me wait, let me find it.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Morphogenic movements.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Well, no, well, okay, that's a cool word. We bring it back to it.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

We didn't invent that.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

There was a great word. Wait, where the hell did it go? Hold on. Hang on. I'm gonna find it. I'm gonna find it. Beneceptive.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Oh no. Yeah, I when I first that was a word that actually Fernando brought in, and I remember saying, I what does that word mean?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

But let me read how that what the because what the authors refer to these movements in general, the spontaneous movements, as beneceptive, meaning rewarding, appropriate, and health promoting.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

And draw analogies to reflexive behaviors like pandiculation, natural stretching, and idiomotor action, movement driven by unconscious intention. But yeah, no, that word um beneception, I thought, oh, that's cool, that it has the perception of this being healthy. That's a great word.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Beneficial for us. I had to look it up initially when it was suggested.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

So what do you consider so you mapped out again the way I introduced this a few minutes ago when I described it is I said that the paper acknowledges that there's these class of movements that are pretty poorly defined, pretty poorly described, and not super that in some ways I think of that as the and maybe there's a main point of the paper that I missed, but I almost think of the main point of hey, look at all these things, and almost the reason I said a beginning earlier is it's almost like articulating that this is probably an area where there's some work to do. Would you agree that's a that's a part of the sentiment of the paper?

SPEAKER_03 20:08

Yeah, yeah. Every paper at the end, right? More research is needed. And but to hope the goal, I think, in a lot of ways to say, look, look at some of these commonalities between all of these different practices.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

They probably all share a common phenom phenomenon here.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

And are we accessing this or not?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

And obviously I love what you're doing, Alex, putting people together with that are coming from different aspects of these worlds. You're gonna find stuff. And but the fact that being out there and some of these are being treated with just medications to make them stop because we don't understand them, or in some cases where where we reported on some of the case reports or individuals that we looked at were having a really hard time with them because there was no language. There was no but they were happening.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

And the context, I think, and how we're I think this was a big paper in trying to bring in different context around around this episode can change a little bit of how we're looking at it, ask different questions going forward. But then also to start maybe even I seeing it in front of us. Because when you start, and I always find this interesting, when you start talking to people about it, they usually say, Oh yeah, I know I see that a lot, actually. I mean I rework. And say, Yeah, that's because you're creating this.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Creating the context for it.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Creating the context for it. So these these emerge and spontaneously. I think that's the beauty of it in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yeah, yeah. What when you completed the paper or published it, and then it sounds like some people would reach out because they'd say, Hey, we we see this yeah, maybe I have two questions. What has what what conversations have gotten started because of this paper? That's sort of one question. And then the second question is do does your team there, the gr you and the group who wrote this, is there a next step? That you or any of you are working on or thinking of. So maybe those are the two questions.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah, yeah. Well, to here's the last one. And in some ways, I think what we thought was to see what this does. And definitely I think on my end in particular, there's definitely interest in bringing more of those stories to the forefront. So if there's folks that didn't have spontaneous movements and went through some experiences of working with that, first of all, I'd love to hear from you. But to start to almost compile.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Always interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Yeah, it's always very interesting because I think the authenticity of that and capturing that phenomenon. Depending on what language or what framework we go through to look at this, it might change, particularly. And I think each individual kind of has their own story kind of coming in, which is going to be really interesting. Exactly, right, right, right. But I forget what the first question was. What was the other one?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

First question was yep. Did anybody yeah? What was there any outreach? Did people write to you?

SPEAKER_03 22:56

Not a lot. You might be the fifth person that's read this.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Well, the first of many, if I have any questions. Well, I'll tell you what, I've I have shared it with at least 20 people, like directly. So so I think that at least about that many have read it.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yeah, if you're looking to go out of where you are now and where you and the language that you're using to understand this, and especially if you've put some of the pieces together for yourself, and this can help you go outward more. And I do, I believe every single one of these sort of frameworks gives us another clue about this phenomenon. It lets it gives us when going into it and even playing with it might be fun. But there are definitely different avenues of this that you start to see, especially for me, like the unwinding phenomenon. Can it be done? Of course, you jump into the fascial research a little bit, where TRE uses quite a bit of oscillation and and I guess in some cases quicker movements in the beginning, but not always the case. Where John Barnes may start with a longer drawn-out fascial tensioning. Well, we're dealing with very two different two very different ways of receiving some of that information through the connective tissue, but both may actually lead to the same place.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

And one may become the other. I don't know how often in John Barnes' work, I think it's sometimes it it moves into tremoring, but certainly in TRE, tremoring often the oscillating quality of it will pause and then move into spiral movements and stretches and things of that nature.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Aaron Powell Well, that word oscillation, too, and I think about a lot of times movement in general as being an oscillation property or experience. So very in a lot of ways, these smaller, kind of fast oscillations are probably part of larger oscillatory behaviors. So we can have them both together. And this idea of having almost choices and different variations of this, I think that becomes a little bit of the art. I hear people talking about that all the time, but I know I'm jumping a little bit here, but even in some of the biotensegrity world, looking at complex systems and things like that, you know, again, emerging properties. Well, that's spontaneous. We didn't talk about biotinsecrity in that paper, but the idea of spontaneity within a system is largely part of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah, yeah. Super cool. Can you talk about one or two of the of the case studies in the paper that come to mind where just examples, the kinds of examples you used to illustrate the case studies?

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Yeah, I think in one case that we looked at, there were definitely some histories, I think, as there is with all of us, but there was recent surgeries for some of these individuals and that started off with some of these sort of spontaneous movements. And I'll present two. The first one, where he had a history, I think it was a nasal surgery actually, that ended up leading to basically some spontaneous movements in the upper trunk. Shockingly, a lot of these individuals that the movements actually occurred more up here in the body, and he got really interested in it, and to the point where he was saying, Wow, this is feeling good. So he it was beneceptive. It was beneceptive, yeah. So so he started following these. Well, well, this guy was he's a hard worker. He put in eight hours a day type of deal for a whole summer, and the stuff that he reported as far as not only his postural experiences changing, but ease and movement as far as like across the board, even eyesight, taste through the sensory systems. He was giving so many awesome feedback. We didn't put this in the paper, but he also was doing it when he received when he had COVID. And actually said it took a completely different turn working with some of those sensations during that process that he felt really helped him manage a lot what was happening with his conditions.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

The other case report that we So he had a great time with it, he taught his friends it. So after he had learned some of these things, he was he went out and started teaching his family, started teaching some of his friends, and he's and it works, and they are doing it now. So here's this idea of no formal training, right? Right, but learned through the process, and then went out. Here's a role of we've seen this with healers. We've seen this with healers that have done similar experiences, I think.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

And so that was a really fun case study. The other individual that we looked at, who's an older gentleman, both males, his experience with some of this, I don't believe yes, he has a a shoulder surgery too, but he was an avid swimmer, kind of growing up, almost like Olympic. He was very active, but had a history of chronic back pain, and started it was a surgery that he had, but then he started having some of these sort of what he described I think as almost like liquidy-based kind of movements that he felt in his body, things sliding and moving, and and from there he started to notice some of these twitches that really were disruptive to him. Yeah. And they weren't comfortable and in some cases actually were painful. So, but during the process of this, and we were asking him, he did notice things changing. He saw things softening up, he saw his posture changing, he saw his body getting better, but even that he didn't have a context of really uh explaining entirely what was happening to him.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Um, but I think throughout the process he he did say things are getting functionally easier for me, but this process doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Yeah. Um it's yeah, yeah, those these two examples are great. It strikes me that there may be this sort of percentage of people who the phenomenon begins however it does for them. I've heard a lot about it in as I've I've seen a lot of I've seen it, I've seen the onset of it qu a bit quite a bit through body work. That's one example. I've had a lot of people come where it began in meditation. I feel like that's another common onset where people are do say sitting meditation of some sort and it's out of there that somehow some movements start to arise, and then they're wondering, they get curious about that. I've had a lot of people where they with the initiation of it was through some psychedelic experience. And where during some psychedelic medicine or journey or even in breath work, psychedelic type breath work, spontaneous movement arises, and then they're investigating it. But anyway, and then just other ones too. Yeah, post-surgery, I've seen those kinds of cases too. But it strikes me that some percentage of people, like in a way, the two case studies you gave, are people who get curious, they think it's beneceptive, they follow it, they devote the time to seeing where it goes, they're a bit open-ended in their exploration. Right. If there's a little discomfort, they so so like some people may have that approach. And then I think there's other people who are pretty mystified, who think something's wrong, will try to inhibit it, get scared of what the phenomenon is, or if not necessarily scared by it, but do not know, don't have the sort of open-ended time to just give it space and the curiosity to it. So it strikes me in that larger group, what I expect is a larger group of people who can't DIY it completely, that there's the role where educated professionals, whether they're movement, bodywork, whatever it is, people who do have a framework, it strikes me that the potential for facilitation is probably the lion's share of individuals for whom this starts, would benefit from some skillful facilitation. I wonder if that's your impression as well.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Or there is sometimes I jump in like the music context to understand this because we got people that are really trained classically from three years old on, and then you got other people that never did any training that play only by year.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

You can still play music at the end, and sometimes those combinations of the two actually work really awesome together. And some of the best music can come from that. But yeah, I think when you have a framework to go by initially, whether you start in something like yoga or kundalini yoga, where you know this is easy. If this thing comes in while you're doing that, it's oh you found kundalini, go with it, right? You did it, yeah. It's like a qi gong or spontaneous qi gong, it's what the qi has arrived, go, and it's easy. Ah, yes, it's so different than if it just shows up.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

And I think what's fascinating sometimes is well there's I have kids that I work with that are in the classrooms doing the wiggling and moving, and some will actually tremor their bodies. Sure. So here we are, right? And there's no context around this. In some ways, they're probably being told to stop. But having a framework to work with this stuff, I think really I've always been told like you have to have a container. You have it has to be held in within a container, otherwise you can spiral out and you can pick your containers, it's probably fine, or jump between containers, but have access to a container. And I think initially, with some of my own experience with this, luckily at the time I was also going through PT school. So I was getting both languages simultaneously when I had some of these experiences show up in my life. So it wasn't super scary, even though I was kind of being told like you got a brain tumor. These are all signs and symptoms of brain tumors, which okay, sometimes they can be, but which is scary of you being told.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Very much so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Yeah. Or you're being possessed by evil spirits, be like, oh, I am? Well, I didn't know that. Who do I talk to now? It just depends on who you meet along the way. You can send you a big thing. Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

No, you're absolutely correct about that. Depends on who you meet along the way.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Yeah, and if you meet somebody cool that kind of gives you some, hey, you know what? This is hey, look, you found something. The game changes. I always tell people I was lucky to run into Gil Headley before I went to school and before I ran into some of this stuff. Which by the way, everyone will like go on a trip, go hang out with Gil Headley and take some of his courses and see for yourself inside the body. But it gives you a reference point. And for me, it was like, well, maybe with some of this stuff that's happened to my body, I'm moving some of that stuff that I had moved through with some of those courses that I saw with my hands physically. Okay, I can go with that. Yeah, it gave me an understanding at least to say, I'm okay. Yeah, I think I'm okay anyways. If I'm not, I'll get some I'll get checked. But let's see where this goes.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, yeah. No, and I want to I want let's unpack a little as much as you're comfortable sharing with that personal story. I think that would be great to to include.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

One just yeah, one quick question around the paper before I forget. I don't think this is in there, but I just want to ask is did you did the paper look at did you look at all about so you definitely looked at these the modalities that you included, some of the uh explanatory frameworks involved. Did you guys discuss autonomic state changes or polyvagal state changing? Did that come up?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

We brought in the parasympathetic, you know, what we believed that a lot of this, you know, was the body accessing parasympathetic states, which I think chives well with some of Stephen Porge's work surrounding some of these processes of where our body heals. And if we can get there into those sort of default network states, then that's where our bodies are going to start to regulate. The mindfulness work and that stuff is important, but it's energy, it's using energy. So, and I think you mentioned that with the quietness spaces and things. So we didn't directly address it, but we discussed about the parasympathetic state responses that we've got to do.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah, because we're what's what strikes me, and I uh a curiosity I have for you, is what strikes me is that of all the modalities that you guys included there, the two I know best are are TRE and somatic experiencing, because they're these are core things that I practice. But and in both of those, there's a little bit of a the the sort of the explanatory model for understanding the spontaneous movement is a little is a bit similar. They the the polyvagal lens, but also Peter Levine articulated the sort of the completion of the threat response cycle. And so in in Peter Levine's languaging, this that that tremoring would be viewed as a as a completion or a discharge of incomplete motor responses, and would often correspond with the completion of sympathetic or fight-flight motor behaviors, or it might also represent a transition from the freeze immobilization sort of death state, as that that tremoring might also emerge during that context. And that's also what Dr. Braselli observed. He found this sort of in real-life context with a lot of intensity in war zones and things, where he was seeing it emerge. And so I think both of them saw really resonated with sort of the analogy of the human to the sort of the wild animal and this behavior uh commonly occurring around post-stress, again, either fight or flight resolution or freeze immobilization resolution. And what I'm wondering is, and so I know that's baked right into the thinking of somatic experiencing and TRE, but I'm a little bit curious about like continuum, myofascial release, the biotensegrity people, maybe even the Kundalini yoga people. And I know you're not like directly an expert in every single one of those modalities, but I'm just wondering like do how similar or different is the explanatory model from these other frameworks as a compared to this one that I was describing?

SPEAKER_03 37:12

I think it's important to also look at where there they so discuss continuum, right? And uh Emily Conrad. Understanding, I like to understand where the person came from that created it. Just like in music, what you why'd you create the song? And I like that question a lot because I find it so rich. Emily had quite an interesting history, I think, growing up, where she had some actually really interesting injuries to her abdominal area.

unknown 37:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Some of which I never got to meet her. I came really close, but I think she passed right before she was coming out this way, but we had plans to connect. I was really bummed about that. Really interesting woman just come. But she, yeah, but I think she had a really hard time with some of her abdominal areas of her body to the point where I think she was actually creating self-harm in some ways. Without knowing it, there was something that wasn't healing for her that was tied to something deeper. And where I think she first experienced some of these undulating movements was one period at night where she was in bed. I'm just reading from some of her from her book, I think, where some of these just movements she started to feel overcome her body and for the first time kind of feeling just at ease with herself. The John Barnes, John Barnes had a pretty significant back injury that laid him out for quite a while when he was lifting really heavy weights at one point. At least again, his story that was told by him, and he needed to find solutions to some of that stuff. I think Feldenkrais with his knee injuries. And then along the way, he tried to make people some people don't think you're crazy with what you're starting to explore and experience, but it's happening. You're feeling better, and you're not doing it the way that you were supposed to. So what do you do? Uh but yeah, I think uh guys zoomed out there, but uh yeah, having that that coming from some of those frameworks for those individuals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Trying to get I can't remember where your initial mentioned like the the the explanatory mechanism for Peter Peter Levine is that sort of the completion of motor responses and also that transition from the sort of the shifting from sympathetic arousal into more into baseline parasympathetic or shifting out of from the free the thawing of a freeze, so to speak. And I wonder if that languaging, if there's parallel languaging in I can't remember in but in Barnes work enough if there's that component.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

I'm not sure. And I remember hearing in the back of my head, you just want to tune in to the right radio station.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

You know, yeah, I remember that. Channel three. Yeah, channel three.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

Oh, okay. I can't find channel three. I'm on channel nine or something. Um but I think now I forget where I read some of this, but the interaction between sympathetic and parasympathetic simultaneously and the wiring that we have here. And but yeah, I think in a lot of ways we look for very linear type of behavior patterns, we're either going up or going down. And why can't we do both? Or simultaneously? And I think again, looking at some of the Bow to Insegrity world, the freeze for the freeze state in some ways, they deal a lot with like compression and tension. I'm not an expert in any of that stuff. I've done a little bit of work with that group to understand some of their language. But I asked a question about freeze states at one point, and from my understanding, when there's an actual equal balance between compression and tension, when they perfectly align, it's stillness, but it's moving. Movement from both of these in a way that's providing energy, but they're canceling out and creating stillness.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Um so, like thinking about this and starting to think about compression and tension when they're perfectly aligned, how they actually can create stillness and balance, but it's still kind of energy. Right. And you use the word biotensegrity energy, it just starts to be like, whoa, okay, wait a minute. Yeah, too. So but yeah, I think at least in this paper, when we were writing it at the time, I think we we looked a lot at just trying to say more of a parasympathetic response that we're essentially trying to achieve with the body and in those places.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Which we did put together like some criteria about how these things can come about and what are some of the characteristics about some of these things with there being like arising spontaneously, like a criteria. There needs to be some sort of like stimuli that you bring into the system that does that. So, for example, like TRE, we put the body on certain stretches, certain pressures are usually being placed on the body depending on the position that you're in, which I find really interesting. Different positions that offer different pressures at the same time, but then also that parasympathetic response of being able to experience letting go of kind of the body, a reduction in tone, perhaps, but also like the environment that is being set up by the person or how it's being perceived by the individual.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Right, right. How is it being contextualized? Yeah, no, it's so fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot when you start to look at those components, even I think some of these states of consciousness shifts too, of saying, I'm feeling like I'm hearing some of my clients that are doing this in myself. I said, ooh, I'm getting I can't think about the detailed stuff that sometimes I think about. My brain doesn't want to, right? Not in this space. I'm outside that mindful, heavy place, and this feels nice, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

It's funny. I'm I I don't know why I'm thinking about this right now. It's like a little, it's a slight non sequitur, but maybe not completely. But I'm again I'm thinking about people where their experience began outside of a where there wasn't initially a context, or much of a con much of a container, as you shared. And I'm thinking about Richmond Heath Richmond in Australia, and he's also a PT, but his so his story was his he always describes his initial foray into spontaneous movement. And I think I th I'm pretty sure for him it came during a Vipassana meditation retreat or several of them. And then it set up a thing where something was just happening, and he always describes it as, and I've heard the story other places too. I've heard it described in other contexts as well, but where suddenly he would find himself doing movements that there's no way he could consciously do. That if he had decided I'm gonna put my I'm gonna put my body into this shape or things that might even look like a yoga posture or something that there would just be literally no way of him doing that intentionally, but because it was being led at a at another level, suddenly, so so I'm just thinking of these kind of In a way, more dramatic examples of expressions and the sort of the surprises that can emerge.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

Yeah, yeah. I think in the context that we put together as far as what things can come about, I think we use the word combinations, permutations of different available movements that are that we have in sort of those automatic spaces of our brain. The brainstem in a lot of ways holds all of our automatic sort of properties. So being able to have access to those, those reflexively for that matter, when I think, yeah, what does the body create? Is it or essentially creating jazz here? We're putting together some really different notes and creating some really unique sounds or some really unique, in this case, postures. And the looking at kind of the response of our body with the environment, and I think now it's we can say in a lot of ways, like our responses are faster than the nervous system. This gets really interesting, right? If a nervous system is work moving at a certain speed, yet reflexively we can move a lot faster. First of all, what's the nervous system for? I have questions. But vibration and oscillation properties can move through the tissue twelve to twenty times faster than that of what gets propagated through a nerve.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

I see.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

So being able to access that by doing something mindful, almost setting the body in motion through a technique like TRE that then brings you into this other space. Yeah, we're starting to look at some of Newton's laws here, right? Of once you set something in motion, it can continue to stay in motion under the right circumstances. Yeah, we're gonna be on delay. We're gonna be a little bit behind with us kind of processing that.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Yeah, yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

And this is where I think the following comes from a lot where we say, follow it. Yeah, that's all you really can do. Even in we know this with language and conversation, right? We're we've already had this conversation in some ways. We're saying things that we know, but we're truly improvising. Right. And you're and what does a really good improviser use for a lot of this stuff? It's things that they trained with, it's things that they know that they're bringing to the surface in the moment in really different and unique ways that allows for the in this way maybe the body to complete something or the body to experience something different, which I think is it's amazing that we found ways into accessing some of this stuff and using this, and it's cool. Yeah, yeah. I get I that's where I get lost a lot just by trying to wrap my head around and stuff, but you know, but the more and more I think, especially now with some of the sciences that are coming out, I can't keep up with it anymore, honestly, Alex. Stuff is changing left and right, and but in in cool ways that I think's just letting us say more and more, you know what? Yeah, just go with it because if it's working, go with it. Because what we thought was wrong in a lot of ways. The idea that muscles actually don't move a lot and that they just isometrically contract, but we move in the way that we do is still mind-blowing to me. Talk to the biotin's degree people, they'll explain it better.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Yeah, yeah. No, that's an area I want to go more into. I was yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

But that's where you come back to the oscillation world, and that's where again we say, ooh, look at people oscillating with TR.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Well, something I was reading recently, you might know about this more than me. I was reading, I think, some paper about I was trying to see every once in a while I look to see has is there any new any new paper that describes some tremoring, whether it's spontaneous or something. Is there anything new in neurof neurophysiological research? And I was reading something about tremoring as from a sort of the perspective of the sort of muscle spindle in interactions. And the paper, and I'll have to dig it up, but this was a skim kind of a thing, but this is probably not news to you, but it was what struck me was that what's being described was that that uh that pulsation or oscillation is always happening and at a certain level, and then there's certain conditions in which that's amplified into perceptible in perceptible levels. And I found that an interesting way to think about it because I'm thinking about this from a TRE or a somatic experiencing perspective where what's the level at which we start to perceive this? Obviously, if you do something to set in motion neurogenic tremoring like through TRE, most of the time you're gonna get quite feelable and quite visible spontaneous movement, right? Typically speaking, somebody watching would be able to see that movement, and of course, you can feel it. But so that's one level of amplitude of rhythmic oscillatory myofascial activity. But to me, there's lots of examples where there's vibratory phenomena that gets set in motion. I've had this happen lots of times through for me, it's been most likely with acupuncture, but it could be any form of body work, craniocycrotherapy, osteopathy, hands-on, hand-somatics, Feldenkrais work. If I've been if my body and nervous system has been touched in a meaningful way, then even though I'm not gonna likely to have big visible oscillations like I do when I tremor in TRE, very often for 12 to 24 hours, there's a very perceptible vibration that I can feel. And of course, now I can interpret that as energetically, I could interpret it as qi flow or if I was in sort of a a TCM perspective, which I think is a good way to look at it. But I've come to believe that it's also uh my you know I also now believe that it's a quite literal vibration. It's just not big enough to be moving my bones around. And so now I'm thinking of it's like the sort of this continuum or the spectrum of when I'm quote unquote in stillness. Well, there's at the literal level, there is not stillness. Of course, I'm breathing and my heart's beating and the cerebrosprinal fluid is moving. So we know there's those movements, but even at the neuromuscular level, what I gathered from this paper is that oscillatory movement is happening. Now, sometimes it's happening more if I get tai chi or acupuncture or something, and I can feel it, but I'm not moving around, nobody's seeing that. Well, now I could do it even more, I do a breath work session or a TRE session, and now I'm literally in a in the visible spectrum of tremoring. So now I'm thinking of this kind of continuum in a sense.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah, like tremors inside tremors or movement inside movement, and even the like a postural sway of just standing is gonna be a slower kind of sway. True. Yeah, then go all the way to the other side of the spectrum, the nitty-gritty ones of where you might feel little fasciculations happen in our sleep all the time. And we know it helped with the healing process and the remodeling of the brain. So I think, especially in infants in the beginning, yeah. But yeah, I think that's like there's starting to become better language around that. And what do you do with that? Can you respond to that? And but yeah, it gets really interesting. But I again I jump to like music a lot because I feel like in some ways they've started to have this conversation of hearing multiple melodies simultaneously, yeah, and being able to hear several at the same time, type of deal, and different ones at the same time. But we're talking about listening and the ear, the vestibular system that's organized to gravity, they're on the same line here, cranial nerve eight. I don't know. Just saying, well, even though they're talked about very separately, one organizes us accordingly to gravity and metallic.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

We're talking about the auditory and vestibular are on the shared on the eighth the cranial nerve eight.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

They're taught very differently, but they splice right into each other. And I think what we're learning about nerves and how nerves feel, and what what's going on? Are they talking? I don't think they maybe.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Yeah, it they're why they're split off the same dander.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Super interesting.

SPEAKER_03 52:03

We ask a lot of people that question, and I don't get many answers, but I'm very curious.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Yeah, it's well, it's interesting that you say that because earlier you talked about so often we use the word follow. Follow. And I didn't say it when you said that, but a phrase that I use a lot with this is especially true in somatic experiencing where first we're going into felt sense, but then it's oftentimes some spontaneous activity doesn't necessarily mean it's big movements, it just might be breath changes, sensation changes, small the head moving a little bit. And a phrase I use a lot is listen and follow. That's in a sense the instruction that I'd give. And the the listen part is because I even though it's maybe not I don't think of it as literally acoustic, but the sense of listening to what's occurring. If you bring your attention, and then the follow is then give permission or allow. And so that pairing, listen and follow is a common language that I use when we're tuning in.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Yeah, it's it is probably some means of regulation that we're probably doing with the body, co-regulation within ourselves. And in the music world, we call and answer is a talking conversation that you have all the time in music. But but some people are better at talking and some people are better at listening. And it sucks if you're with somebody that just likes to talk all the time and doesn't want to listen. But that give and take a lot of times, or following listening, yeah, there's something there, and we see it played out in a lot of other things too, a lot of other disciplines. So, yeah, I think we're coming into that space now. Yeah, and now we're bringing out okay, we need to bring out language for this process. And are there some common things that that we can experience and what do we give them for languages? Are we I ask kids this all the time because I ask them what's going on in their body because I work a lot with them. And they will tell you, you push on your arm their arm and you tell them what else changed, they'll tell you if they know how to, if they're given the permission to look somewhere. Sometimes they don't need to be told, just oh, I can feel something else in my leg. You know, but I usually tell them, say, look everywhere, not just here, look everywhere. And we're playing, we're starting to play, we're starting to practice this skill. That's probably very much available as we get older sometimes. You press on something, and it says, Well, how does that feel? It's okay. And what else do you feel? What you just did, like on my hand. Yeah, what else? What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Oh, yeah, that's so cool. Well, well, Joel, let's yeah, let's hear a little bit about your personal story if you're willing. You've alluded to here in this conversation to while you were doing PT school, there was some there was something you were tracking and you were a little bit interpreting it from a TPT lens, but sounded quite particular to you. Can you will you share a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Yeah, I think I just hit a wall basically when I was 20, 20, was I 23, 24 at the time. I just I'd gotten out of a really uh really long-term relationship. I had just built my house for two years, and then I just did my first year of grad school. And I think I had some downtime that summer, which was an interesting part of the program. Normally they don't anymore, but we had a so I wasn't gonna get a job. I was like, I'm just gonna. But that was when I first started to basically notice some really interesting things start to happen with my body. I just hit a wall. And I remember one night saying, Alright, I need to stretch my arms. And in particular, I think I was also so I was working with patients, a lot of hands-on work, but as a student.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

They would not help, is that you wouldn't help me.

SPEAKER_03 55:47

No. So I was seeing them work with my patients, but I wasn't seeing them work with me, and I was starting to get frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:54

And saying, why can't this work for me?

SPEAKER_01 55:56

And just and was it when you say work on you, was it like what were you noticing as a as not optimal for you? Like pain phenomenon or disconnected phenomenon?

SPEAKER_03 56:09

I think I had built my from this house from basically the foundation up. I read I really remodeled everything. I kept the skeleton, but I had done quite an extensive amount of labor for two years without any rest. I had in my mind that I was gonna take on this project, and then after that it was another project, right? My brain says, Oh, we gotta this isn't good enough, we gotta go do something else. So maybe that was but but now all of a sudden in school I'm sitting still. I'm not moving that regular lifestyle that I was doing and distracting, and so all of a sudden now I'm having to sit for and study at night. So I think over time that just built up, and I started to need to do more exercise, more mobilizations, but it wasn't I wasn't getting to the level that I needed to clear my mind and to be able to sit with the studies and the work that I needed to. So I was just starting to get quite frustrated. And I think there was just one night where I was laying down, I was just I was really not in a good place, and I said, I don't care, I need to move my shoulder, I need to bring this up, and I'm just gonna push as hard as I can, I don't care. I'm at that point. So I threw my arm back with everything I had, and I heard a big pop, and I said, Oh, my shoulder! But then I said, I don't feel any pain. I said, and then all of a sudden I saw my other hand start to tremor. So, and it for me replicated the same thing I just did. I could feel the pull from basically the back of my shoulder, just my arm going whoop boom, and then same replication on that side. So a lot of times that TRE phenomenon, right, that we see left to right, yeah, right? So hemispheres talking in some way, but at the time I didn't know that, I didn't understand any of the neurology that could have been happening there or what my body just experienced, and but I felt some relief after that. It was a very clear when sometimes what I hear after folks that sometimes go in and for learn TRE for the first time, it's like wow, things just got completely. It's what I felt. And but I think after that time, I it wasn't like I just started tremoring from that point on. You know, I was going back to school, I think a couple months passed, and then I started to notice just some movement in my arm. And I'd say, Whoa, I was sitting with my buddy next door, and I next to my lab, and I said, Hey Tony, look at my arm. And he goes, Yeah, that's good. Yeah, you're moving it. Good for you. I was like, No, and you can see how this goes next, right? No, Tony, no, Tony, I'm not doing it. And that's where I got I started probably getting lazy.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

A psychiatric referral for you.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

Yeah, or even better, when you go to your professors and you say, Hey, look, and you see their eyes go, you need to get that checked out. So, why? I feel okay, I feel good.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

But um, so that started to basically, I think when I started doing that, I said, Well, I'm gonna just I'm gonna squeeze with it. I'm gonna just actually squeeze the muscle. And then I would get like almost an opposite motion that kind of came through. And then I'd say, Oh, okay, cool, relief. So I had that familiarity of that sort of relief pattern. And then I saw something other, another fasciculation start to happen higher above. And I said, Oh, I'll follow that. So running this in my head a little bit, oh, that's that muscle, let me squeeze that muscle, and then another motion would happen. So I just kept following that until some of the motions became a little bit bigger and a little bit more broader. And slowly over time, it was this it was for me more of pulling and deep sort of fascial stretching. Okay. Um, but there were definitely times and positionings that this was way easier to do in the floor. So, like a lot of this I would play with and sitting, but I eventually found my way to the floor and started some of that work there. And I couldn't get enough of it. I thought it was I could feel every time I went into space and did some of this work, I was coming out with just this vitality and this strength behind my body that, and of course, feeling at ease was wow, this is great. So I did that, I had the summer off. I had, I know I spent a lot of my time like in between that kind of walking outdoors and just collecting myself. But I saw huge changes, I saw huge postural changes, I saw a lot of my body come back to me in a short amount of time. So, but I also put in a lot of that the hours behind that time.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:28

So you know, I have questions on the speed of some of this work, but a lot was there were times where there was a lot of just skin driving work. I couldn't get enough of moving the skin. It did seem like a lot of this went from the outer shearing kind of movements to deeper in.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

Interesting, yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:46

Which a lot of times is what we do when we're first born. And I probably should mention too, I was a I I was a C-section baby. I was pre-me as well. Who knows if that was a piece of not, but that process just returning back to school was just like, whoa, I had a very different perspective on the body and how things work.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

And luckily along the way, I had some folks that I was able to be in contact with this experience that were almost a little bit of a mentor in the process.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:17

And saying, Oh no, you're good, you're exploring, keep going, right? You're in an okay place. This was my experience, and I was like, Oh, okay. But yeah, so that was what I carried through and whatever, 15, 16 years ago where that kind of started. But over time, yeah, it just settled and settled, got less and less, and like you were describing, more of that sensation of just being felt in the body, just sitting here. There's movements that are there, but nowhere to the point of needing to, they're not distracting, they're just part of the voluntary stuff now. So I think about it from an integration standpoint, and it gets confusing, as I think in a lot of ways, and I'm not saying that my body is like perfectly integrated or anything like that, but it's definitely in a better place than I think it was at that time and in a more balanced place, movement-wise. And I'm more aware of a lot of those things that at the time I was doing that I think are like, whoa, I was inflicting some discomfort on my body. I was unaware. And so amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Yeah, no, that's so cool. No, thanks for sharing that that personal side. You mentioned if there was a few mentors, you were lucky to find some mentors who were encouraging and whatnot. Did you did you were there any of the opposite expert experience? You were in PT school, you have access to experts in physiology, et cetera, et cetera. Well, what did you were you did you bring some of the questions that ended up making their way into this paper uh 15 years later? Did you pose any of those questions to some of your the faculty?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:58

Yeah. Well, I've always had there were some interesting conversations that came out of that, and there were definitely some perspectives that were like, no, we know movement's good, and keep moving, let your body move. And there were those takes. There were other people that were like, I don't know what you're doing, but I think you have a tumor and you need to get that checked out immediately. Oh my god. Oh my god, I don't want to talk to you anymore. But then there were definitely like, I don't know what this is, but uh this is weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

Everything in PT school is a lot about controlling the body, putting it back to certain places with certain techniques, or at least using those. I think the language is changing now. A lot of the fields are changing where we're coming to more of a way of saying we're suggesting something to the body, but there's expectation behind techniques sometimes. And I think in this type of process it's definitely like what you get is what you get, and it's the fun part.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

Yeah, totally. Hopefully, it's beneceptive when it's not.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:56

You like that word.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

No, I'm gonna start using it, but definitely mindful of our time. Maybe we got well, let's do one more section, which is yeah, I guess I'd love to hear how do you you mentioned earlier people start to some so much of it is who you meet along the way, right? Like you've got a process going to do you meet a qigong teacher, do you meet uh who do you meet? And some of those people are going to be encouraging. And I thought to myself, ever since you first waited going back 18 months, when you so extensively weighed in on a question about my infant at the time, I came to the impression of I was like, wow, anybody who finds their way into Joel's office, that's some good karma. That was they met a unique person and a unique healer. So so I'm a little so so when you mentioned that earlier, it depends on who you meet. That's what I was thinking today. I was like, yeah, well, the people who find their way to you, I think of the though, those are some lucky individuals because they're finding their way into a person with a significant personal experience of some of this stuff, and then also just the creative and sensitive person that you are. So could you share a little bit about like uh how treatment works for you? It might be nonlinear or maybe it's linear. Maybe you have a process. Like maybe you could just talk a little bit about how you how some of these ideas find their way into your actual clinical work with kids and adults.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:20

Yeah, so it's interesting because I do work with both. I work with kids, adults, and then I sometimes work with both of them simultaneously, and that's that sometimes gets really interesting teaching through multiple languages, but together. But in a lot of ways, I'm looking for some of these. I use them for tests now. So I am a physical therapist. That's as much as I tried to fight it along the way. I was placed here. So I have to use that language in a way that I can also pull in this other stuff and honor it what I was taught through those experiences. So for me, primitive reflexes gave me that opportunity to work with the spontaneity and also.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

Also have language behind it to present to people about some of these unpack that because lots of people listening are not going to know what you mean by primitive reflexes and the field of reflex integration.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:13

So primitive. Primitive reflexes, the movements that basically build us. Some of these within utero, and the ones that are that once we start to engage with outside. But our first interactions essentially with the environment come from movements that essentially are programmed in the brain. Now, there's some other research that actually show that some of the spontaneity may actually be there a little bit first and then the primitive movements. But we use those as our beginning, as the movements that are in intuitively we know to start to interact us with the environment.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

What are a few like the moral reflex or the sucking reflex or yep?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:51

So some of these the doctor checks for in the beginning, and some people there's stories behind each one of these reflexes in a lot of ways of what they're useful and purposeful for. But oftentimes there are first kind of protection pieces, also too, that allow us to interact with this new environment coming out. So the moral reflex in particular is that one that sort of some people leave the first breath of like arms open, legs open, type of deal, and they check for that by taking the baby and bringing it backwards. And if you see that you have an intact nervous system, essentially. But one of the first oscillations, right, essentially, is this kind of motion going out, arms over the head, legs straight out, and then everything curling back in to the body. Think of just with those motions of the bot of what we do from crossfit overhead movements with the barbell to some of the fetal positions that we bring. It encourage people to go in when we see it with TRE.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:45

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

Are we engaging with some of these reflexes in some ways? But we we know that those sort of reflexes, amongst others, like the asymmetrical tonic neck reflex, those are basically movements that allow the integration of the vestibular system, the auditory system, but also get us rolling on the ground. When it looks like a fencer pose or the arm and the leg come up like this, and you look over and almost like a little bit of a warrior in some ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

Right? And you start making connections, but I don't know if they're entirely but there's these are useful for us to start to build our body and but also our brain. And we're not thinking about them, they're just there. And there are you know there are certain tests that you can do, and a lot of these are sensory-based and movement-based, to check to see if these pop up on an individual. And we know now with a lot of things like neurodevelopmental conditions, autism, OCD, that these some underlie or at least are significantly related to some of these conditions. We find them in a lot of these individuals that have them. But the same thing with individuals that have injuries or to the brain or to their spinal cord, even post-COVID, we're seeing some of these things when these movements don't follow through, and normally they clear out a lot of them and then become postural reflexes that we can then use to orient ourselves to gravity. But they're usually a lot of them are cleared by the by 12 months, and if they're not, then we call them retained. So those are the ones that I'm looking for in individuals. So there are certain tests that you can do to see, even just like having a person turn their head to the side, and if an arm bends, then possibly there may be that reflex that is available. Is retained putting taking your finger and kind of straight across a person's face, across their lips for rooting that we would use to first learn to feed with as an infant. If that happens, or we see puckering of the lips type of deal, then those are all things that we can say, oh, these are retained, right? Yeah, these are distracting, and they're reproducible in a lot of ways when we test for them. Some of them are not full-blown movement patterns that you would see textbook, and some people look for those.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:06

But and how I was trained in a lot of ways is sometimes you just get bits and pieces of some of these motions. And a lot of times when I work, so I'm looking for those initially with kids, and I have a whole list of reflexes that I go through to test for, for especially with children.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:22

But the same with adults looking at somebody shared with me, maybe it was you, that but it's what you're talking about isn't rare, maybe even forty-fifty percent of adults or something, you know, or upon testing would have some retained reflexes as or in that neighborhood.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

I find them all the time.

unknown 1:10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:41

I find them, I find them in the eyes, I find them in the hands, I find them in the feet. I they're there.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:47

And they're not always disruptive to the person's function. I think that's important to say. Just because they're there doesn't mean that they're a problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:56

Yeah. But for some folks that may have, like I was working with a woman the other day who I I checked my eyes with everybody, and she was having knee pain. I looked her to the right, and her body immediately fell forward. So looking in some of these ways of these sort of imbalances that can sometimes happen or just how required with that, can have an effect on a lot of different things. So yeah, this is it's an it's a place that I look a lot with the kiddos and adults that I'm working with. And then from there, we for a lot of the kids I try to interact with those movements. I get them to do things and usually a lot of sensory work to those areas. And but I do with adults, I use TRE quite a bit to allow that as another gateway point for them to sometimes see for themselves, but allow them to drive and interact with some of those movements in a very different way.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

So let me linger there for a moment. So with adults, if you're feeling like you want to you're liking the I guess let's call it an induction process. Something happens when TRE elicits something. How is it that you introduce that? Do you give them a full-blown, the whole shebang all seven acts, the full formal process, or do you do a is there a more in the flow way that you invite that?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:09

Yeah. So a lot of times people will these reflexes I can show, right? I can do something to someone and then say, Did you see that?

unknown 1:12:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:16

And a lot of times they say, No, I did not. Right? But so I can show them the spontaneity right there. I'm already starting to teach them about the fact that their body can spontaneously move. And the whole idea behind some of these reflexes too is bringing people into them in some regards, or some sort of a sensory experience with that part of their body, and them having a conscious experience of it, right? So what does TRE do in a lot of ways? It brings people into some of these motions.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

Conscious awareness, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

And can bring in that mindful peace through a reflexive behavior. So I love TRE in that regard, is that I usually pair the two together in a lot of ways. I'll have people doing specific movements and things that are being mindful of those areas. And then I'm using TRE to help them identify within that sometimes, allowing those behaviors to actually go deeper into. And that's where it gets interesting because a lot of times I do see inside TRE a lot of these sort of reflexes and movements occurring. Right. And I can help them.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:16

So that's its own really interesting. Yeah, that's its own interesting piece. So it's like you're saying that whether when you watch people tremor, so let's use TRE as our as our framework here, when you watch people do TRE, whether you've been talking about whether you've previously assessed or talked about reflex reflexes, when you're observing tremoring phenomenon because you're you have a trained eye around uh you have that lens of reflexes, it sounds like you're saying a lot of the movements that you're seeing elicited in TRE, you're seeing the traces and the evidence of retained reflexes. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:57

Yeah, or parts of them. Yeah. And so I that I can then bring in the full one and give them an idea. So I know with TRE sometimes we use the word like interventions, right? So that might be one of my interventions.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

I've changed I don't call it that anymore. I call it facilitations now.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

I got sick, I got sick of that word. It just sounds it's a clinical word, but I don't like it anymore. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:20

Right. I like facilitations, but yeah, it's helping, it's helping with the completion. So if I my mind says, well, there looks like they're trying to this looks like it could be part of that, and maybe it's not. It might not be, but yeah, I think a lot of times you do see an individual trying to roll, right? You see those initial kind of rockings and rolling. So but it's different, right? It's not we're not dealing with an infant anymore. We're dealing with a mature adult for with adults, and even with a teenage kid or something like that, or a five-year-old, they're beyond these places of just this linear progression. So people that just do the linear progression of, oh, you need to bring the brain back to these steps again. I don't, it's in a it's a hush posh of a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:03

And so we gotta work in a nonlinear way in what comes up on the fly type of deal. There's an art there for sure. But sometimes it's very clear, oh, a body's trying to get itself to roll and twist into that side. Here we go. So in the moment, I might try to facilitate that manually with the person. I may give them the idea and say, hey, allow yourself to go in this direction. Does it feel like you want to go left or right? Test those sides. Which one do you want to follow? And usually people are like, oh, I want to go this way, go for it, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:31

But other times I may, if I see that repeated a lot throughout our experience, it's okay. I saw this a lot. I'm gonna give it as an exercise. So here's my PT part of saying your body's trying to do this repetitively, it's looking for something inside that motion, movement inside movement. We take this home for an exercise too, and drive the mindfulness of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:53

So I'm I find a lot of times I'm jumping sides, I'm jumping into the extreme mindfulness. Now I'm jumping back into the extreme reflex aspect and just monitoring and saying, okay, what is this person doing in the moment? Which I got from some of the TRE work, which was definitely a little bit of a game changer for me of how my thought process worked. But I trusted it. I said, These guys are David's obviously done his work, and and I've seen that with myself and some of my own body's experiences. Let's let's practice this. And yeah, yeah, yeah, it does have a place there, I feel like, and just but knowing which side or which of the fence that you want to be on at different moments, I think can be really helpful about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

Yeah, cool. Can you think of, and maybe this might be our closing note. I'm just maybe you can think of one one client example that just stands out. I'm sure there's lots, but maybe one where one that sort of stands out to you as and I where I guess where I'm thinking where spontaneous movement definitely definitely had a major role, whether that's TRE or something else, but where in your view that was very much a very important aspect of some transformational process or healing process for them. Yeah, any just wondering if any case examples.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:06

Yeah, so where I met my best teacher is what you're asking here. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So in school, actually, or I think it was my second year, this woman came through, her name was Megan, she was 19 years old, and she had she had a career. She actually we're she was in the paper that we put together too, as far as a case report on movement collaboration. Okay and she was just a sweetest girl. She was a gymnast who grew up and just had the most beautiful movements, elegant movement, but got uh ended up or had she had Huntington's Korea. So she started to have it, which is a degenerative neurological condition.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

Can you say the word again? I missed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:44

Huntington's Korea.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:45

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:46

Yeah. And so it comes with dyskinesia, which is like involuntary, aggressive kind of movements where there's not a lot of kind of patterns. Again, right? Things that we sometimes see in the re but not pathology.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:00

So this was after probably a year or two after I think I was exploring some of my own stuff. So I had my own little bit of a language and feedback system that I was using with some of this. And I wanted to help her. She came in and talked to our class about her condition, was trying to educate us. And the whole time, I think I was just feeling wow, like I wonder if I can do anything. I wonder if I could do anything. And I'll ask her afterwards. She went, she just really brave little girl. And she was with her mother, but the whole time, and she could see her kind of fighting gravity and working to keep herself upright. She's amazing. She ate 9,000 calories a day, and she was skinny as a rail.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

I mean, because she had so much movement, that's what you mean.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:38

So much energy that she had to control so that a lot of the spasticity that was happening in the dyskinesia that she was with what was left of her voluntary system, that's what she was able to do. But she probably weighed 90 pounds soaking wet.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:52

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:53

And but she was so positive in just talking about you know being there and helping us understand her in this condition.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:01

So I asked if I could work with her a couple times during the week just as an exploratory project for me to understand more. And and she was like, Yeah, sure. Her mom was like, I'll bring her by once a week. So I said, okay, why don't we just start? And I started with the first, let me use my PT tools. Why don't we do some hand exercises where we bring the arm up and let's stretch the back? And the whole time she's she's bucking and she's bodies, but she's doing it, she's saying this is fun. And I said, Oh, this just feels like there's something missing, obviously. I said, Oh, and I could just feel myself getting closer and closer and saying, All right, what if I try some manual things with her, right? And I'll try to allow myself, but I couldn't keep track of her. She was so fast with some of these motions.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:42

And I said, Okay, what if I just what if I just grab her hands and I just connect? Now there are some of these arts, these practices, and I want to say like yeah, I didn't know about them at the time, but I was like, I just need to I need to make contact because my body knows contact. I if I can feel her, I can find that pre-stress of that I'm aware of that I feel like I can move faster in. So I found that sort of position with her, and then I think from there it was I had ideas like let's bring our arms up together, but again, still fast. And then I just felt my body just go immediately into some of these responses of I she was pushing me out of my equilibrium, and then I could feel my body correcting itself very much in the way that I had practiced working with these reflexes. So when I recognized that, I was like, wait a minute, okay, I can just push this back this way. But when I did that, I we both would hear like an auditory response of pow pow. So there was some sort of reorganization that happened simultaneously, reflexively for both of us. At least auditorily for me, I recognized it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:49

What do you wait? What do you mean auditorily? You mean like you literally heard a sound?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:53

Yeah, like I felt something move on me, it was a pop kind of crack, and then I heard on her a pop and crack.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:59

Wow, okay, so there's like a joint popping type of a sound.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which a lot of times happens when there's a reorganization at a joint. The cavitation occurs. But what do we know from that? Something is stimulated somewhere that now allows the joint to reorganize.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:15

So that was the first experience of kind of working with some of that, uh, but it felt stable. All of a sudden there was a stability that came in again, very similar to some of those practices where I was moving with with some of the um unwinding phenomena and finding and looking for comparison.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

Two bodies together, two nervous systems together and wear resistance together, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:38

So this we would practice and move, and it did. It took on a very oscillatory kind of movement practice, but I starting, I'm starting to look a little bit like her, and we're sharing some of these movement patterns, but still coming back to some of those responses, letting my body reconnect with the ground with and just reorganize, co-regulate, however we want to look at it. Because I could move, I could work through her and then use all use the ground and coming from my feet a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:04

So but over time, what ended up happening was there would be a slowing and then a pause. So, but there were this these stillnesses that sort of came out, she was always moving, but they held for about 30 seconds of just complete stillness. And at one point she even Which was rare for her as it was. Yeah, for her, though they weren't really rest points.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:26

So we were together creating rest points.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:29

They were temporary, but they were happening. Yeah, and to the point where they were coming across to her as scary, like almost like she would yell out and say, That's never like that. What is that? It was unfamiliar. And but her body was still, and mine felt in a very kind of still place as well, temporarily, until it needed to move again.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:49

So we followed that for a little bit, and the responses that I got, we would have multiple pauses that over time became a little bit longer each period. But very similar to TRE, her sleep patterns were better at night. She was she was able to basically have her digestion was a little bit different, reported from mom. She had movements available that normally she would have very much difficulty with. So I still have a lot of questions as to what happened to her.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:17

How many tr tr sessions were you able to spend with her?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:20

We did seven or eight sessions together. So enough to see like this was pretty significant. Yeah. But a lot of it I look at is the same stuff we're doing with the manual following. It was just for me, she was a little bit just faster and it was a little bit more aggressive with some of the like forces that we were using because she had so much tone in her system. So that was a pretty, and still to this day, I she drives some of the interest. But I also wonder as we start to be go become more advanced with this, we start to become more in tune with each individual system, what happens when we start to stack them?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:58

And maybe people are already out there doing that work in some ways. So but I'm curious when you have two systems.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:04

Yeah, I'm curious too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:06

Two systems running independently but operating simultaneously with awareness, what what starts to happen? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

Reminds me a little bit of we talked about push hands and tai chi for sure. But there's and I haven't done a lot of this, but there's the discipline of contact improv. Are you familiar with that? Yeah, yeah. A bit of you know being in relationship through contact and movement, sharing weight. Yeah, yeah, there's uh yeah, no, you're you're right. I'm sure there's that the way you ended up working, there's commonalities probably with lots of things.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:36

Yeah, and I think it speaks I think it speaks to us finding uh an accuracy within this for ourselves. And yeah, the trial and error process that it seems like each of us go through, but then refining it over time and becoming more accurate and essentially more energy efficient with that. And can we leverage it? Can we leverage it in more ways because we are we're not wasting as much energy in the beginning, which I feel like at least for me, that was a process that definitely happened. Can you leverage some of this process in ways that allows healing to to present faster? It probably is very fast, but in this way, do things that we're just not doing yet. And I don't I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:22

Yeah, yeah. That's a great that's a very cool early, early teacher for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:29

Yeah, yeah. And she still has me going back to the drawing board every I can approach it every day and be like, Where are we just dancing? I come back to that too and say, Were we just being weird together and that works? I gotta look at it through that lens too. But no, there was something relating to the mechanics of this all that but she was just fast. She was fast. And the only time she had that other stillness, from my understanding, is a couple days before she passed. That was the only other time where there was a completion in her system.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:59

Wow, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:00

You know, from what her mother said. Oh, or sleep. I think during sleep too, she was able to achieve places of stillness. So but where her mother saw her, I asked her and said, When was the last time that you did see her in those states where she wasn't? And she said, the last two days before she passed, that's when I saw her in that state of just stillness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:18

Wow, interesting.

unknown 1:26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:21

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:21

So I don't I'm curious. What's what can we do with some of these conditions too that we're finding? I think there was a a study recently published right on MS about the effectiveness of TRE. So yeah, yeah, how like treats like in the natural world, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:37

Yeah, super cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:38

Yeah, it's fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:39

Wow. Well, Joel, we covered a lot of ground. I there's more ground I would want to cover, but it's probably uh this will probably uh hop maybe hopefully I'll be able to rope you into a follow-up conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:50

Yeah, to be continued. I mean, there's yeah, I think this stuff is fun. I'm still exploring. There's I got lots of information too. If people are curious and going down the rabbit hole a little bit more and perfect, please reach out. And if there are stories that people have about some of the early experiences, if they especially for individuals that didn't get trained and then had some of these experiences, yeah, I would love to hear from you. Because I do think in the future, putting together a paper that looks more at some of the natural phenomons of this process would be very important.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:21

Yeah, it would be a good direction to go.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:23

Yeah, I think so. I think so. And uh and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:27

And of course, if there's ever questioning, and yeah, no, totally, and that's uh there's a part of this neurogenic integration project. Is the intention is really to create to facilitate conversation and information sharing across just basically what you're what you've done in the paper there. That's the hope of this, too. Is Steve and I we come out, she comes out of chiropractic world. I've got the bodywork background, both of us have the TRE as our our main training in neurogenic movement. But again, why I was so motivated, inspired by. Your paper is I loved the broadness of that. How do we how where do we how do we look at this from other professional lenses, biotinsecrity, reflux integration, et cetera? But also, but not only professional, how do we just collect information from humans? And so I'd love to, I'd love to share in that effort with you of just collecting these stories and case studies. And we'll certainly direct people to you and your efforts to keep going on the research side of it. I hope we can support one another in that.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:33

Yeah, rock and roll.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:37

Awesome. Okay, Joel, let's land here, but thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:40

You're welcome. Thanks so much, Alex.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:42

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:44

That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drumming.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:51

If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people interested in this transformative work.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:01

And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us. Or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.