Neurogenic Integration Podcast

E03- The Body is the Portal: Exploring Internal Alchemy with Simba Stenqvist

• Alex • Episode 3

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What if the secret to deep healing wasn't found in a technique---but in the quality of presence you bring to another human being? In this episode, Alex reconnects with Simba Stenqvist, TRE® trainer and somatic innovator based in Thailand, to explore his groundbreaking modality called Internal Alchemy---a fusion of neurogenic tremoring, fascial work, breathwork, and energetic practices.

Simba shares how Internal Alchemy emerged not from intellectual design, but through direct revelation during meditation---symbols, insights, and movements that seemed to arise through him rather than from him. Drawing on 25+ years in martial arts, bodywork, and nervous system practices, Simba reveals how respecting traditional lineages means bringing them forward to meet contemporary needs. From his multicultural background (Swedish-Dominican) to his "old school" teaching philosophy, Simba embodies the art of working with "who's in front of you" rather than rigid protocols.

Together, Alex and Simba dive deep into the mystery of masterful facilitation---how experienced practitioners learn to trust their intuition, follow subtle body cues, and create spaces where profound healing can unfold. This conversation explores presence as medicine, the power of authentic witnessing, and how combining fascial work with tremoring can access layers of stored trauma that pure nervous system approaches might miss. If you've ever wondered what transforms a good practitioner into a masterful one, this episode offers profound insights into the art of somatic healing.


Key Highlights:

  • [00:03:00] Internal Alchemy Origins Story
  • [05:15:00] Innovation Meets Ancient Wisdom
  • [09:52:00] Teaching Who's Present Philosophy
  • [14:27:00] Fascial Work Beyond Structure
  • [17:34:00] Connecting Somatic Worlds
  • [22:27:00] Creating Safe Containers
  • [25:43:00] Witnessing & Reframing Trauma
  • [28:30:00] Intuitive vs Intellectual Knowing
  • [33:00:00] Organism-to-Organism Communication
  • [40:15:00] Presence as Transmission
  • [46:57:00] Natural vs Supernatural Abilities
  • [48:47:00] Beyond Nervous System Labels

Links and Resources: 

Find us Online: 

Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/ 

Instagram: @neurogenicintegration


SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green.

SPEAKER_01

And I am Sylvia Sung Shields. Together we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research.

SPEAKER_03

Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_01

Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being.

SPEAKER_03

So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. Hello everybody. I'm happy to be sitting down this evening for me, and it's morning for Simba, but once again having uh my second uh recorded podcast conversation with Simba Stenqvist in uh based in Chiang Mai, Thailand, or somewhere in that general area, originally from Sweden. And uh Simba is uh a diverse background in bodywork and martial arts training and fascial work. He's a fellow TRE practitioner and trainer certification trainer. And so this is how we originally uh crossed paths in the TRE world. And in our previous conversation, uh last year, we got to hear about just Simba's journey and um of uh moving to Thailand and starting uh his business uh living with spirit and uh some of the healing retreats that he hosts and facilitates uh in Thailand and blending um uh different practices, um, traditional and modern nervous system practices and psychoeducation with the polyvagal theory and all these wonderful things. So we've that's what was in our our last uh conversation. But today, um what I'm really hoping to explore with Simba is just sort of in some ways where he's going as a as a teacher and educator and practitioner. And he recently announced um as sort of an extension of his work, maybe combining some of his background and and modalities into uh a new modality, something that he, something called internal alchemy, uh, which in some ways is taking uh some of the elements of TRE and neurogenic tremoring in as I understand it, which is not very well yet, but that's the purpose of the conversation, uh, in combination with some other other perspectives in the deep work that Simba's been doing over 25 years. Mostly we're gonna be hearing about uh what this new project is all about uh for Simba. And we're uh I also want announcing that uh we're lucky that uh we've invited Simba to uh lead a workshop for the neurogenic integration community, um leading a workshop uh in June. Uh let me check the date. I think it's June 18th. Um uh night, about a two-hour workshop. Uh the title of it is The Body is the Portal, an Introduction to Internal Alchemy. And so we are gonna be excited to have him as a guest facilitator, uh, just teaching about his methods and all of that. So, anyway, Simba, uh so happy to uh connect with you again, and thanks for taking time to tell us what you are up to.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction, and it's so great to be back here again. It's always nice to talk to you, and I just feel like we can talk forever, like we have the same kind of passion and interest for these things. Um basically the internal alchemy for me was I met David in person a year and a half ago, and I was discussing about my wish to innovate TRE and how I am as a person, how I always been. That I always respect, I come from traditional martial arts background, I always respect the lineages that are there, but respecting a lineage for me also means you bring it forward. Because whatever you're practicing martial arts or whatever philosophy you're doing, I believe for you to be successful for yourself and to help others also needs to be contemporary. So it needs to have values that's respecting the lineage that are timeless, but it also needs to adapt with what is the need that people have right now. So if we look at something like yoga, okay, people maybe weren't sitting down eight hours a day when they designed it. They weren't on smartphones, they weren't on the internet, so you can still practice yoga respecting the whole lineage, but you have to understand that what people need today is a bit different. So that was basically the initial inquiry to innovate this modality befitting people that might come for different reasons, that might have different backgrounds, kind of like we do have in TRE, we have modifications if someone can't do the exercises and so on. But what I also started to realize is that I have a lot of other modalities that I practice, teach, and train for years. And I and David was like, well, weave them into TRE, like, you know, see see what we can do. So I started exploring doing a lot of that over the years and had great results for myself and with many other clients, and that was really the birthing idea for internal alchemy, but it didn't really come from a mental concept, so it wasn't I'm gonna do a modality. It kind of came through me, right? I started to see this symbol, I started to get these ideas that just came when I was meditating, and it feels more like it came through me rather than I thought it out and started to put it together.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So that's kind of the background I would say of how this modality started. You know, it really started with a curiosity and inquiry to to expand and to be modern and to to be able to help people continue the exploration.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, I really resonate with that idea of what you're sharing about um, yeah, keeping keeping the tradition alive or or uh alive and matching your own authentic explorations. Uh and it, I mean it fits, you know, as as I've shared with you, you know, my own curiosities around how does tremoring fit with um in the in the rolfing structural integration environment? What what does it have to offer in a craniosacral therapy environment? What does what's the connection with the Feldenkrais movement? You know, so so and it's and a little similar to you, the birthing of neurogenic integration as a community and uh uh project. I I I don't recall it a we don't call it a modality as more of just a a project, but the project of neurogenic integration is uh exploration. I see it as exploration uh into how does tremoring um what is what is the connection? What you know if you do if you do breath work, if you do fascial work, what what um if you look at it not only from a neurobiological lens, but if you include, let's say, an energy anatomy lens, which I think we're gonna talk about with you. So in any case, I I feel so much resonance with uh what you're sharing that you sort of felt, okay, what's my expression or what's my authentic exploration of this? So I'm I was uh yeah, I'm so excited about hearing more about your your your work with this.

SPEAKER_02

I agree, and I know we have a lot of uh similarities in the way of looking at things and exploring, and I also have a cranial sacral background. Right. One of the main things that I feel with this modality is I will pre-record a lot of theory, and and of course, when people show up for the trainings, we will go through theory and practical exercises. But the main thing of teaching it is I want to say old school, but more who's in front of me? What do they need? There is basic fundaments that everyone needs, especially if you're gonna be a practitioner, you know, criteria to finish a training. But I think within those criteria, what I'm aiming to teach is to work with people from where they're at, and not so much a like a school system. You're gonna learn this and then you're gonna learn this, and then you're gonna learn that, right? It's not gonna be linear in that sense. And I believe that's fair because you don't know who's gonna show up. The same as when you teach TRE. Maybe I can't teach all the exercises. Maybe I need to do grounding two, three times with the person before I can even approach what we call the tremoring part of the session. So a big part of teaching the modality is coming back to that, really working with who is in front of me and what do they need. And when you do that in a group, you actually get to see almost like um like the old osteopathic trainings. You know, they used to go to an osteopath and just see cases after cases after cases, and that's how they started to learn. So, this is right something similar that you will learn a lot by doing. Of course, you will learn the theory, I will go through the energy, but it's gonna be less. This is what you're gonna get in the training. You're gonna get what you need when you arrive there, and we're gonna explore these different areas, but what you get depends on what the person and the group needs. That's why I think each and every training is gonna be very different and it's gonna be very interactive, and you're really gonna get what you come for. And that's usually when I look at trainings and myself and the trainees, we want to learn how to teach this professionally, but ultimately we come for our own healing, right? And through that's the gateway to then give back to others.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. I love the language of who's you know who who's in front of you. Um because you know, again, you okay, yeah, you we whatever modality you have, a pro you might have a protocol, whether it's um, yeah, it doesn't matter what it is, the um any any teaching in it usually has a structure, and but you're applying that structure to a unique uh uh the the the living, breathing person, human being that's with you there. Um so so really uh the reminder of that I I like a lot, I resonate a lot with. I wonder if you could share. It's like you paint a picture. It's like give us some examples of you know of even from your own experience and in as you're meeting someone and and what's guiding you in um in in working with that of the individual. So yeah, talk talk about that process a little bit, if you would.

SPEAKER_02

Of course, the way that I teach anything, TRE or internal alchemy, really starts with your connection to your own grounding and your own embodiments that you can connect to the feeling of your body. Not that I feel off. I need to go ask someone what's wrong with me, that I can develop that communication with my own body. So that's really the core philosophy of how I teach grounding, self-regulation, and anything. And that's the main element that I will start to teach people how to explore for themselves, but also how to explore in in dynamics with others in one-on-one sessions and groups. So whether that's like we're doing cranial sacral therapy, the physical touch where you kind of learn how to lead and follow very gently. Listening and yeah. Listening, receiving, giving suggestions. So that's a big part of what what I will be aiming to do to develop those skills for yourself, but also in congruency with others or in concert with others. We'll see what happens the 18th of June, the workshop you're gonna do, but the body is the portal. I have a feeling that it's gonna be a lot of fascia, and that's something that I'm gonna incorporate into the modality in general. And to give you an idea, practically when we stretch, you know, you feel a good sensation in your muscle, or when you lift out, you you get this pump and you feel good. But once you start to go into fascia work, you can be wiped, you can go deep into having a strong emotional reaction, whether that's happiness, sadness, or joy, because ultimately you tap into the whole structure that carries everything in our body. So when you practically go in and do different fascia maneuvers and work with the facha, right? It's like taking a towel and rinsing it, whatever's stuck in the tissue will come out. So that's something that I want to do for people to start to experience something beyond the intellectual concept of what is it that we're doing. You start to feel it, you learn how to regulate what it is that comes up for you, and the body will many times. I mean, you're sure you've seen it when you do fascia work. Many times the body will start to show you why do I have pain here? Why do I feel like I do? It's almost like uh role play, it starts to try to show you a movement or so. A lot of the work I'm gonna focus on is teaching people how to get into that state themselves and helping others, and I believe that's combined with what we call the tremors from the nervous system, which I think is just one part of the shaking mechanism because there's energetical components to it. Uh you have a lot of different reasons for why the body's tremoring. But what I practically do when I teach is to work with this felt sense so you can feel what is your body trying to tell you, work with the fascia structure because it's connected to everything, it comes from the cellular level and out, and you get these personal experiences. And we do a lot of breathing exercises because it connects to the conscious and subconscious mind, and every breath, every emotion, every thought has a unique breathing pattern. So once you start to become aware and breathe, together with these kind of exercises, you get a very deep pathway into your body. You get like a very deep channel into what you many times can't see with your intellectual mind. And then what I also like to add, like you mentioned, is the energetical components, which many times can feel abstract, especially if we're kind of gearing a little bit more towards the scientific, and we're like, no, what is this? But I want to do it in a tangible way. So when I look at this modality, you can do breath work, you can do fascia work, you can do, you can do all of these things. What I'm looking is to combine them all into a way where you really get to have a powerful tool to communicate with your body, with other people's body, but also giving other people's body a way of expanding beyond the framework of the nervous system. Right. And beyond any kind of limitations that you're you have a platform that you can go into energetics, you can go into fascia, you can go in you can go in any direction you want, but I want to give people a broad base and expand upon maybe existing skills to give them new opportunities to to broaden their horizon.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I love that. Um what I'm being reminded of right now is something that I think is cool or uh good news is a better better way to say it. Um because I'm always I'm always worried about I'm always worried about in in the the field that we're in of body work, somatics, nervous system work, other things. I'm always worried about sort of silos where people stay, you know, only in their they you know, if if each discipline stays only in their discipline, then then there's then there's not an then there's uh then although there's overlap, there's not there's not clear integration uh sometimes. And so one something that so some good news is that so every three years is the uh Fascial Congress, a big big conference that happens somewhere in the world. And this and and I I forget which number they're on, it's maybe been happening for 15 years or so. And it's for it's the people doing uh fascial research, Robert Schleip and Jean Berthault, the French, that French uh uh surgeon who's takes those beautiful videos and photos of fascia. Um but in any case, this year uh it's going to be in New Orleans in the United States in August. And the good news is that so two things. One, Stephen Porges is a uh keynote there, so that's good. So it's a connecting between the polyvagal world of the autonomic nervous system and the fascial world, you know, as you say, which connects to everything structurally, but as you as you're saying, when we engage the fascia, it's also uh it's not simply a structural tissue, there's the psychoemotional uh energetic component as well. So, anyway, so I'm I'm glad that link is being made. And then the second piece of good news is that um a TRE provider, Lisa Kimball. Do you know Lisa?

SPEAKER_02

Uh I think I know of her, but I don't know her personally not.

SPEAKER_03

So Lisa does some fascial work with TRE and a lot with horses as well, with uh uh but I for I think she's from South Africa. And so she's going to the fascial con. She's going to the fascial congress, and she's going to give a pre-workshop. So before before the the the main part of the Congress, she's doing a TRE tremoring workshop. So I thought that is really good. And in fact, I'm interviewing her. I'm interviewing her tomorrow, no, Saturday, I think, um, because I want to hear about what she's going to present. So anyway, I'm just thinking, I thought, oh good. So some of these worlds are are coming together um sort of usefully. Yeah. But I I love this idea, Simba, of a kind of this um like experiential learning, or you said kind of old school. And um I know, you know, you've mentioned your own sort of martial arts lineage, and you know, a lot of martial arts lineages have, you know, there's no substitution for just being with your teachers and in that immersive environment. I that's similar in my own background with martial arts and zen, and and even my first bodywork teacher, it was more like learning a martial art than anything else. Um, and let and and and so I resonate a lot with that idea of yes, there's certain theory and whatnot, but that's only uh that's maybe 10% of the learning, and the rest is sort of something that is transmitted through time and experience and observation and connection. I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about uh your way of uh teaching, of working with students, um, in that more old school way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think um I can share a story because I think stories many times are good at uh explaining a philosophy. When I said old school, so one of my Thai massage teachers here, she's traveling all over Asia and in Europe, and they invite her in everywhere. She's super, super famous in her fields. And when I started to take in trainings with her, learning the china song and the stomach massage, I would ask her many times, what do I do with a client that has this and this thing? And she said, I have no idea. I said, But you have like 30, 40 years of experience. What are you talking about? She said, I don't know, bring them here and I show you. So she wasn't operating from an intellectual perspective at all. I mean I am as well, right? But but that was really when I started to look at at teaching as oh, that's what they call a master. Like if you go to a master, they won't give you a theoretical framework. You will come and they will teach the technique based on your body, based on your needs, based on what is the situation about. Because if I pos a question to you, that's for my level of understanding. But maybe my level of understanding is part of why I can't see the solution because I'm coming from a bias or a trauma and so on. So a big part of the way I teach people is creating a safe space for them to explore themselves, their emotions, the sensations that comes up. And I almost always, you know, strive to find the balance of this is a training program. Like we're not coming only for our own healing. So there are criteria, right? Because you're actually gonna be helping others. But at the same time, you need to have had that experience of being held in a safe space, feeling that new shifts in your nervous system, that you get a new reference point, right? And and a big part of my work is to get people to a point where they realize there are choices. Like you're not stuck in a habit, you're not stuck in a trauma. You ground, you do the work to the point where you realize that there is a choice. You might not notice this choice because you have habitually done it so many times, so you don't see another way out. But once you slow everything down with the tremors, with the self-regulation, working through the fajant body, your self-awareness goes up, and you will reframe experiences that you looked in a certain way before. So when people tell me, oh, please help me, guide me to look at things in this way, I said, No, that's not the work. My work is to teach people, ground them, get them to a point where they realize they have choices, and the rest is your path. What do I want to do with this awareness, this new experiences, this knowledge? And I believe a big part of that work is something that David taught me actually, is um many times our experiences is not about what happened, but it's about what happened inside of us due to what happened. But a big part of the external factor is if you have an experience and you're witnessed and you're treated in a certain way, that creates like an imprint in your nervous system. So if I'm, I don't know, I'm five and I'm gonna go up and do a little theater performance and my pants fall down and everyone laughs and everyone feels embarrassed themselves, that's gonna be an imprint in my nervous system because I'm witnessed as I'm having an experience in a certain way. Many times, if you can be witnessed doing something that you're afraid of, but you're celebrated, you're held in a safe space, now we can start to reframe that experience. And I believe that's a big part of the teaching that I do, that people can help themselves and others just by being grounded, by being, you know, open, compassionate, and not come from a framework of this is right or wrong. So big part of the ground is grounding is my teaching style, helping people, reframing the experiences, slowing things down to the point where you can see that you actually have options, that you can do things differently. And then a big part is actually being witnessed if you do public speaking, if you do something that you feel is hard, but you're received, you're accepted in that, and that starts to change a lot of that stuck energy. So that's a big part of how I like to teach anything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love that. Um I'm sort of I'm thinking, I'm I'm laughing a little bit to myself. There was a kind of a recent um maybe six months ago or something, there was uh uh Dr. Burcelli David posted a video of him working with someone. I don't even know, I don't can't some group. It might have been in Indonesia with Hindra, or it might it might have been the New York group, the firefighters, I'm not sure. But he posted some video of him facilitating, and he was and he, you know, some help helped somebody and uh through a release, um, not only the tremoring release, but also an emotional release, and somebody, and then that video was posted on like you know the TRE Facebook forum, and somebody somebody said, Oh, well, okay, how did you know to do this or this or this? And David's first response was one word, experience, um, which I thought was kind of funny. And the person kind of inquired a little bit more, and he gave a little bit of a fuller explanation. But um I I can't, you know, I can't think of how many times you let me put it this way. I think a frustration for David is, you know, he he's he's done, he's worked with so many people, and he's he can see, you know, he can be present for. And I think for David, he believes, and I I also believe this, but but I think he believes in a way what he's doing is not so not so difficult, is not so is not and and I think a frustration of his is that you know, people say, Oh, well, how did you know this? How did you know? He said, Well, easy. I just was really, I was just totally there with the person. I just was I cared about them, I was curious, I was present, and I just responded as a human being. I was just a human being with a human being. Um, and you know, whatever happens around that. And so to me, that's a little bit of what I hear you speaking to is that if there's if there's that safety in the in the in that very, very human way, and there's the witnessing and the and that very natural way of of being with people, then then, you know, tips and tricks and an analytical eye, and these things matter very little, where that actually what's allowing for this um the going deeper for the the people is that wit that that that very clear witnessing presence. And so I'm having the feeling that that's a little bit along the along the lines of what you're describing.

SPEAKER_02

Definitely. Um I think a big part like from my discussions with Brizzelli and my realizations is um if you're trying to intellectually understand a intuitive sense. Yeah. It's it's it's gonna be a bit of a you know a block, right? Because you're you're trying to understand how an inhalation happens and you actually need to look at the exhalation. So you're looking at the completely wrong aspect of what it is that you need to do to learn something. And I mean, I've asked them too many times, and you probably have too, you know, when I'm next to him, and it says, Well, you you observe the body, you'll observe a lot of people the tremors, you feel your own nervous system, and you will start to pick up from patterns, you will start to see things, you will start to get an idea, and if you don't know, you ask the person. So I think the main thing is many people think that there is like a trick or a philosophy, but it really comes down to how well can I connect to myself and by proxy extension of that connection to myself to another organism, and that's really what I'm seeing he's masterful at, you know, observing bodies, connecting to people. Like my father's from the Dominican Republic, my mother is Swedish, right? So I'm growing up with two cultures, and in Sweden it's very structural and and and sure they're open and they're friendly, right? But they're not as open as Latin Americans, right? That's that's a completely different climate and mentality. So in in the Dominican Republic, the way that my father grew up is they're like, hey, how you doing, Alex? And you're like, you're a little bit grumpy. They will tease you and you might explode on me and I'm like, hey, what's going on with you? And that becomes part of the therapy, and then you explain, yeah, yeah. I had a fight with my wife, and you know, come on, man. Well, let's let's work it out, let's do some pads, let's run, let's so you kind of collectively work through these things, but you don't think about it because that's what we do, that's in the culture. Yeah, so I think you can learn how to do this in a calmer way, therapeutically with people, uh by by you connecting to yourself and realizing, you know, what's not really flowing here. And I see David is a master of that. Really see all the person wants to laugh, but they don't. And it's not that you're studying someone like a profiler or trying to look at micro gestures, you just feel that there is something that wants to come through, and you give the person questions and opportunities to express that. And I believe the more you do, the freer you will feel. And a lot of the stress that I see today actually comes from the inability to be authentic because you think someone's gonna come after you, or your opinion, or you're gonna get bad publicity, or someone's gonna put you into uh uh a fraction where where you are against this person, or you're against this person, or I'm pro this, or no, I just don't like this, and this is what I stand for. It doesn't mean that I'm against anyone. This is just what's invalid, what's important for me. And I believe a lot of what I've got from the nervous system work is how can I stand my ground in a compassionate way that is not me against them. I can realize where someone is coming from, but I can still be centered and rooted and grounded in myself, but in a loving way, not in a combative way, not in a if you do this, I'm gonna do that. And and I think really once you get to that point and you have those experiences and you can start to teach from that point, then the way you can show up for other people's um for yourself is ultimately going to change. And then you don't even know. I mean, the question might just pop up in your head and you ask the person a question, and then you have a big release, and someone says, Where did the question come from? I usually say, I just follow what was available to me. Sometimes I hear it, sometimes I see it, sometimes I get a feeling in my body, and I ask them, and then actually it wasn't my feeling was something that was mirrored body to body. So I think it's a different kind of communication. And when I look at internal alchemy, that's a big part of what I want to teach people is to go into that layer of communication, which is not just about nervous system, which actually has other modalities, because that's been my own personal journey. And I believe having that framework and experiences and exercises exploring these themes, and then going into tremors or shaking or whatever we choose to call it, it's gonna open up something new because it's almost like you're prompting your body, and then the tremors opens up all the blockages for what it wants to come out, for what wants to be explored and expressed. And that's also a big part of what I'm really excited to teach in internal alchemy because the discussions you have, the exercises you do, and then coming into the portion of tremors, it really does a big difference. But also how you look at the tremors. What is it that's actually happening? Okay, it can be shaking, I can feel it in the nervous system, I can feel like a cool little wave sometimes moving through me. To be able to listen up all of these different rhythms and waves inside of your body is something that I haven't heard a lot about in the theory. And it's not that I think theory is, you know, it's not good or bad. I still teach theory, I love it, it's changed my life. This was more how can I make my own expression, how can I make my contribution to this family of amazing healing awareness that we have or expressive awareness. So it really came from curiosity and more a contribution than a substitution. That's really how I see any of these modalities that are birthed from from you know from this roots.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, nicely, nicely explained. Um you know, kind of going back to this, you know, your your this example of you know David in in his mastery when he's working with others and and um and how he describes it. And uh I I think you you said something that I want to highlight, or because I I think it's important, which is that, you know, uh again, I'm gonna use David the as the example of the master, but I think I think you work this way uh when you're in your in your flow. I think I work this way when I'm in my flow. I think this is what uh we all tr what we try to impart to our students as well. But um, but in any case, so so picturing Dave in his in his his zone, his zone, and and I'm I'm struck that there's in the sense there's almost like two dimensions. One is, yes, you know, so one is sort of the outward-facing dimension of, you know, sort of observing, yes, what what is it that you see or sense or hear um in the individual, um, or even what do they say? So what's the what's the information that you're receiving uh from that organism? Um and then the other dimension being and what's and and what's arising or uh happening within you at the level of thought, at the level of sensation, at the level of impulse. Um and what what I uh when I work with students, I was working with a student today, and I see them early in their journey uh in facilitation, and what I sometimes observe is I is that they they start to see things, so they they're and they are asking good questions, and so they're present, they're curious, they're they sometimes notice things I would never notice, and I think, wow, what a what a what an amazing uh what a what a what a cool detail that that person saw or felt. But the difference is that I think it takes time, at least for my own students, it takes time for them to not only sense but also trust whatever's arising from within them. Because what I sometimes see is sometimes as soon as I say, okay, well, here's here's the kind of thing I might have asked or suggested, or I give, you know, I'll tell you what my own impulse would be, XYZ. This is what this is what I would want to, this is what my impulse would be in this situation. And they say, yeah, yeah, that's it, you know, that matches. And so in some ways, what I what I sometimes think is that is that we one of the things I think people need learn as they become more experienced and more masterful is is to is to not only sense and feel, but to give, but to follow uh their impulses and intuitions. And that's it, that's what I've really seen in Dave. Is of course he's seen thousands and thousands of people, so his eye is very, very sharp. He's seen many patterns. But but in terms of him following his own in intuition, it's like there's no there's no hesitation, there's no gap. It's there's uh there's uh um an immediacy to it. And so I that's something that I've sort of have felt. So I don't know, I guess I'm just uh thinking about this this um, you know, what goes into this organism-to-organism interaction that that comes up.

SPEAKER_02

I agree, and that's a very good explanation. I believe that it's a big part of it. That was one of the first things he told me when when I was working alongside him, is that just sit down and watch first. Just what are we looking at? What's coming up, you know? And and I believe, I mean, I've had it, you probably had it, and you see David do it many times. You start to see a pattern and and you think about it, and before you even say it, the other body has received your message, the communication, and it starts to shift, and something else starts to happen. Or you just said, what would happen if in the body goes, yep, and it just changes into that pattern. So I think that really comes from that deep sense of connection that that organism feels that my organism is safe, and it feels that I'm clear in my communication with myself and with others, and by proxy of that, the mirror neurons, or how you search to explain it, starts to learn, and there's an opening, it's an allowance, it's like the vicarious modeling. Oh, we can do like that. Hmm, interesting. So I think that is a big part of what I learned and what I like to teach, you know, in theory and what I think could call masterful once you really start to learn that. But the self-regulation for yourself, how doing the work for yourself actually makes others feel better, how it's not selfish or egotistical, but taking care of yourself first to the level where you feel this good, just you being yourself in that essence, it's going to teach other people how they can be by you being yourself. And I think Dave is a great example of that because when he just shows up this session, I remember first podcast I did with him. My my jaw was tremoring. I was like, what's going on? I've been on TRU for quite some time. Now I was talking, and I was like, it started to tremor. So just being in his presence, my body started to release something, you know. And I think that's that's that's what you can achieve the more you practice this modality. You just feel that your body wants to release something, or you see a very fit and inspiring person, and you want to exercise when you see them. You get this communication body to body by what you put in and what you cultivate in yourself. And that's really what I think seasoned practitioners do. They have that understanding, that allowance, and they're very open for that. So their mere presence allows for something to come through that maybe isn't available as easy in our own day-to-day lives with limitations, belief systems, and patterns and habits and so on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. I love that. Yeah. No, I really relate to that idea of that, you know, what's you know, the presence alone. I think I think for me, you know, it it reminds me of um well, I've I have many, I have so many examples of that with some, you know, my own teachers. And and there there's actually there's a story that I've always liked. Maybe I'll share this briefly. That's not about therapy, but it's about music. Uh and I saw this a long time ago in a wonderful documentary about conducting. There was a I think it the series was called The Art of Conducting. And it was talking about, you know, just literally the art of conducting classical music. And it sort of was kind of going through a history of some of the some of the famous uh conductors. And um one famous conductor is um uh Furtwangler, and he was German and I and uh and uh sort of during World War II or around that time and well known for you know working with the Berlin Philharmonic and uh probably others, I'm not sure. Um, but there was a uh sort of an interview with somebody uh who's who described this most amazing experience they had, which was that, so I think this was a violinist, and they were there getting ready for a rehearsal, and uh Fertwangler, the conductor, was not yet there, and so the the the um uh orchestra was um sort of doing a rough rehearsal. Maybe they had already tuned their instruments and sort of this person was there uh playing their violin. I don't think that I I think it was still sort of in that phase when they're kind of sort of a little bit chaotic, people are just practicing their pieces, that they're not fully executing the song yet. And anyway, this this um woman who was describing this, she said, all of a sudden, something just changed. There was a change in the sound, and there was Some sort of tonality coming through and and just something was something shifted, and I was so struck. And she said, and then one or you know, ten seconds later, she saw that uh Fertwangler, the conductor, was had had come in, but he hadn't come around the corner yet. And so, and then so then he came around the corner and then you know he came to join the audience. But uh in her description, she the the it was as though, you know, literally his own his presence was felt before he arrived, and that it already was influencing the the quality of the sound. And so I I've had I've had many examples of that with with therapeutic practitioners and martial arts and things where I've just come to believe that that it's the person's presence that carries so much of the of the interaction more than what they do or say. Um but I I love that one example because there's something very tangible about it. So um, yeah, I just I hadn't I haven't thought about that in a long time, but I like that I like that example.

SPEAKER_02

I love that story, and and that's definitely the core of what I aim to teach in internal alchemy, to create a framework we can start to have these experiences free of dogma, free of what I want to teach you, you get to explore, and like you said, in a very tangible way, because many times when we hear stories about this, they feel very far out and esoteric, or you know, this is this and that, but to start to have these experiences in a tangible, rooted, grounded way, and and that you start in a small sense, like with maybe not the largest life-changing experiences, or maybe you go there, well, we don't know what comes up. But that you start to build your experience or database, and this feels natural, and you can explain it and you can reproduce it or create a scenario where we're a setting where this is likely to happen. I believe we're starting to go from what's called, you know, supernatural mystic, or oh, this is your hidden powers. No, it's nothing, there's nothing hidden. It's it's natural, it's normal, it's it's what we already have. It's more dormant, if anything, I would say, inside of us because we choose to use the brain intellectually very strongly. And I believe this is really just about balancing yourself, right? It's kind of like when I look at using the intellectual mind, it's like all I do every day is like doing biceps curls. You know, I have this big biceps, but the rest of the body can't sustain it. We need to wake up all the different parts of our body, so we're functional as a unit. And communication is supposed to be not just with words, and we see that in TREU. We actually get to experience that, and with the other modalities that are being birthed around now, neurogenic integration, internal alchemy. So I think it's an extension of awakening those dormant natural sides to you. It's like using one percent of your capacity, then it's like it's not supernatural, it's natural because you just haven't been taught how to use it. So let's wake that up and see what comes from there. That's really how I see it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

No, I love that, I love that description, and I love the you're right. I mean, there's too much out there that that frames this as yes, extraordinary and supernatural, and um, but no, this idea that this it's it's the most natural, it's it's um, it's intrinsic, it's uh it it's our nature, and um I think that that feels to me a much more accurate and also grounded um way of of of uh expressing that. So yeah, I really resonate there. Um what else? Yeah, what else should we cover, Simba? What uh what what have we what have we not touched upon?

SPEAKER_02

We've gone through a lot. So when when I do a workshop like this, since it will be a little bit different in person and online. In person, of course, we can touch them if people want, and concentral.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

There's there's a different kind of connection that can be made. So online it will be a little bit different, of course, uh, but a lot of it's gonna be kind of going through different exercises to start to connect the deeper with yourself, and also something I'm working on is not coming from the conception of or the idea of this is tremors. What is it that's actually happening? Like, because that's usually what happens in TRE. Okay, you're tremoring, it's the nervous system, and we explain it, and it's correct. I don't have any issues with that. But I want to give the person the opportunity of not putting my experiences and ideas a label. I want to say there's energy, there's this, there's a lot of different cultures that explain it in different ways. Whatever it is, you can stop it in this way. That's how we make it safe, that's how we honor the TRE legacy, but also to make it culturally appropriate, then you can explore it and explain it in your own language, in your own way that fits you and the crowd, the audience where you are at, and not just coming from this uh framework saying only talking all about the nervous system. And I think that that becomes authentic because that becomes your expression of it. It's the same as when you do cranial psychotherapy and you have, well, in our system, they call it the unwinding when the body starts to move. It's not tremors, it's not really a nervous system. A lot of people explain it in different ways, but frankly, no one really knows what it is, right? And coming back to that essence of what is it? What is it that I'm actually experiencing? And what happens when I become a witness and aware of that? There's an awareness moving my body, and what happens when I kind of start to work in concert and dance with it and don't come from an idea of what's happening. That's a big part of what I want to teach in the workshops. So doing some briefing exercises, working with the fascia, and then going into whatever we choose to call it, the movements, the changes. Because then you can start to explore it from your own terminology, your own understanding, and it will become much more of your experience rather than me guiding you to an experience and then explaining what you experienced. Yep.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. I love it. Um great. Well, all right. Well, Sim, I I guess I feel a little bit complete with this. How do you feel?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I feel the energy of the cycle is kind of completed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, I I you know, I'm so glad we're beginning with this um with with the live workshop, the online workshop in June. Uh, I'm excited just to be there. I'm just gonna be a a participant, um, so I get to explore and be in be in the space as well. So I'm looking forward to that uh and having you um uh participate with our community. You know, the neurogenic integration community is interesting because uh the core group came from people who've been tremoring together, many of us since for five years or more, because it kind of began during COVID era. Um, and of course, some new people have come and and it's it's grown a little bit. But um it's it's a it's an interesting group because it's people who have who have done a lot often, who have ex who have um explored. And so I what I always enjoy working with the neurogenic integration community is that the uh to me they're a little bit of a sophisticated audience, and most of them are not practitioners. They're not even trying to be. They are um they are appreciators of this work. They they they uh when I mean when I I mean they're not they're not practitioners with others. I mean some of them are, but but mostly they're people who are who are just very interested in their own processes. Um and so I think I think you will enjoy uh this group is uh you know a good audience to to bring your your your space holding to and and lens.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I'm honored to be invited, and and I I'm sure we're gonna have a lot of fun sharing experiences and you know that's that's gonna be really fun to get to know your audience as well, your community, and and yeah, I think it's nice to see different i ways of practicing. I think it enriches you when and and it just adds to your repertoire, to your experience base, and and and I think the more we can do that, the more everyone can grow. And I mean one part of the training that I have that's optional is I have a group container that I teach uh with TRE emotional freedom techniques, breath work. I teach separate modalities as well, like classes, like weekly classes online. So an optional way when you do the TRE or internal alchemy training is to join this container, which we call the wellspring, where you have like weekly classes. So in your repertoire, like you were saying, even if you don't become practitioners in other modalities, you can experience working with yourself in different ways. And then when you bring that into your modality, you come from a different place, like you said, you know, they're connoisseurs, they're interested, they're yeah, and I think that is really what broadens your perspective and and how you show up as a person or as a teacher, or just your authentic expression of being yourself.

SPEAKER_03

Nice, cool. All right, Simbab. Well, um, yes, I appreciate uh this conversation and I look forward to uh being with you on June 18th.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and if people want to know more, they can also follow me on Instagram, the Spirit Academy on the line, or some things that I update there about this, and of course, neurogenic integration, the workshop I will do for you guys. I'm gonna talk a little bit about that there as well. So and you can also, I mean, reach out to me, you know, livingwiththespirit.com. It's a way you can reach out as well, and probably drop some links here afterwards so people can. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

We'll put all we'll put all the we'll put all the web web links and information uh in the show notes and all the places, so yeah, people will people can easily uh connect with you. Yeah. Wonderful. All right.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Wonderful. Thank you for this. And nice to get another one done.

SPEAKER_01

That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drawing.

SPEAKER_03

If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people interested in this transformative work.

SPEAKER_01

And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us. Or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.