E04 - TRE in the 2025 Fascia Congress with Liza Kimble

Alex Greene talks with Liza Kimble, a body therapist from South Africa who combines TRE (Tension and Trauma Releasing Exercises) with gentle touch work. Liza has worked with bodies for 32 years and discovered that lighter touch often works better than deep, painful massage. She works with both people and horses, teaching them how to release tension through natural tremoring.

Liza shares how she went from doing very intense massage work to learning gentler approaches that help the nervous system feel safe. Her work with horses taught her important lessons about healing - when horses feel comfortable, they naturally start to shake and release stored stress. She's excited to present her work at a big research conference in New Orleans.

The conversation covers how to combine different healing methods, why therapists need to take care of themselves, and Liza's interest in ancient wisdom about human behavior patterns. This episode helps both therapists and regular people understand how gentle body work can help heal trauma and calm the nervous system.

Key Highlights:
00:01 - Background introduction
00:03 - Massage therapy beginnings
00:05 - Psoas activation discovery
00:07 - Meeting David Berceli
00:09 - First TRE experience
00:12 - Combining TRE fascial
00:14 - Fascia Congress attendance
00:16 - Horse tremoring discovery
00:19 - Touch technique evolution
00:22 - Client homework protocols
00:25 - Horse therapy training
00:29 - Traumatized horse transformation
00:34 - Horse tremoring patterns
00:37 - Equine therapy philosophy
00:42 - Teaching methodology evolution
00:44 - Upcoming Congress excitement
00:50 - Human algorithm teachings

Links and Resources: 
International Fascia Research Congress: https://www.frscongress.org/ 
Liza’s Website: https://lizakimble.com/ 
Polyvagal Theory resources by Dr. Stephen Porges: https://www.polyvagalinstitute.org/whatispolyvagaltheory 
Tom Myers' Anatomy Trains and fascial meridians: https://www.myersmyofascialmeridians.com/

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green. And I am Sebia Sung-Shields. Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research. Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you. Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being. So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. All right, hello everybody. Good morning. It's Sunday morning here in Boulder, Colorado, and it is Sunday afternoon, late afternoon in Germany, where my guest, Lisa Kimball, is presently. But I am uh excited to sit down today with Lisa Kimball. She's a colleague of mine in the TRE world and works with TRE tension and trauma releasing exercises. Um, but she does pretty amazing work connecting that work also with fascial work, uh both in humans and in horses. And uh she is an educator, she does quite a bit of travel, uh, she's based in Durban, uh, South Africa, and her farm near near somewhere in that area with with her horses, but uh travels extensively um teaching workshops and again in both human and equine fascial and trauma release work, and some of that includes TRE and other things. So we'll hear a lot about that. But what um part of the timing of our conversation today is Lisa and I were chatting online the other week, and she was sharing her excitement that she got uh her uh workshop uh accepted to the upcoming seventh uh Fascial Congress, and we'll we'll have Lisa tell us about the history of the Fascial Congress. But it is in New Orleans this year, and so I was excited because Lisa is going to be bringing a presentation on TRE into that audience, which is part of what we're gonna discuss. And maybe actually right now, I'm just gonna try sharing my screen and pulling up this exciting little thing that all right, yay! Her abstract was accepted to the seventh International Fascia Research Congress. So that is so wonderful. Anyway, um, Lisa, thanks so much for taking time for a conversation today. Thank you so much for inviting me, Alex. Thank you. Yeah, awesome. Well, I'll probably get more into your background later, but but give us just a little bit of your background. What got you into your work in general? Like take us back in time a little bit. Um, how did you find TRE? Just give us a little backstory of you and how you ended up sort of uh in this particular slice of your professional work. It's pretty funny actually, especially how I came to TRE. Um, I went into the massage world very early on, um as I pretty much the year after I left school, I started working with massage therapy and different types of massage therapy, got very involved in sports massage, and yeah, I did a pretty mean, hard, rough, intense massage for a very long time. And um yeah, I mean now I think I'm on 32 years of of doing body work, um and didn't work with horses yet at that point. I really wanted to. I wanted to actually study equine physio. Uh that would have been my original choice of of work. But in South Africa in the early 90s, there was no way of that happening. So um yeah, I just kind of fell into the massage world. It felt very natural. I was strong, I could do it, it was easy, and and I loved the the anatomy. That was something I was completely obsessed with. Um, did reflexology, that kind of led into a little bit of uh TCM as we would call it now, and and kinds of things. Yeah, and then years down the line, kind of doing the same thing, having three little kids, and just getting finding that my profession was really just feeling a little like it was great for two days that people would feel a lot better, and you know, they're coming for pain, they're coming for chronic pain and stress, and and as much as I was trying to figure out different things to help them, it just I I didn't feel it was really working. Great, they were great for two days, and of course it's great for business, same people are back every week, they love you, they come, whatever. But I was like really one feeling like I'm completely missing something here. And I was very lucky to have met a guy called Douglas Heel who taught me about activation, SOAS activations and and full-body activations, but for me the SOAS connection was was the most effective. So that already shifted a whole lot of stuff. And of course, people were feeling super emotional. Well, wait, so tell so so so I I me too, my first uh SOAS work was sort of what got me into this in general. So tell me about but I but I haven't you really heard that term before, SOAS activation. So can you can you share just a little bit about that? Yeah, so that's when we would use manually, we go in and and just well, back in those days when I was taught it, we went in really hard and like squished down into where the so the belly of the psoas is. And we would just hold that until the people would report. Well, they're probably half vomiting at this point, but they they're kind of reporting that they're feeling it less pain. And then we would do a lot of going deep into the iliacus against the against the iliac crest, and that to this day has been one of the most profound pain relief lower back, so has activation. So so the idea was to push on the bed. You're you're speaking my language, yeah. This is me too. This is my world too. It works, works every time. Yeah, and yeah, and just holding it, and then once the release came, you know, obviously people feel a lot better. So now the way I do it is completely different, but that was back then, and it was profound because we were doing this with top athletes um in the course, and and we could just see the difference, and so that completely changed my world. Um, and I felt it was really effective, and my clients were you know, the the back pain was growing, they were feeling so much better, everything was better. Yeah. And strangely enough, uh David was coming to Durban, and he was going to do a work. David Who? David, David Who, David Who's David? Never heard of David. Never heard of David. David just said he was coming to Durban. Um, I had never read a book of his, I had never heard of Tremoring, I had zero idea about anything about Tremoring or David, and um so this is kind of fresh off the SOAS course. So three of my really good friends, including Douglas Hill, who's done the SOAS course, said, There's this guy coming, you need to go, you need to go to his course. And I was like, that was super weird. That three of my now becoming close friends with him and two others said you gotta go. And I was like, Okay, well, because the universe says three times you gotta go, you gotta go. So I went having no clue why I was going and what it was about, and my eyes were on stalks. It was quite so his theory obviously spoke straight to my heart, and I was like, Boom, yes. Yeah, and he mentioned this so what year was that leading? This was 2009. So I qualified in 2010, so I think it was unless, yeah, 2008 or 2009. Yeah, yeah, cool, cool, yeah. And then yeah, so yeah, you it you were you were struck. You were you were hooked. I was hooked, yeah. How bit well besides the so so so besides you know, you saw and I remembered because I I did his training, I found it in 2013, and you know, it's sort of the identical experience. I don't need to go into it, but yeah, same. Um but what but I but I mean what I remember was his you know the presentation was so profound and the examples and all of that. But I'm curious about what was your personal experience like as you got started with with the method with with tremoring. So I was really crap. I I think I was so um so in like trying to maintain this control while being so fascinated watching everybody else, that was the biggest problem, of course, because I was just couldn't stop looking at everyone else. And and then Yon like not knowing how to let go of my own control and that mental battle that everyone we lead through it has the first time. So I really struggled, and the the course I think was four days long, took me two days. I had to eventually I had to plank, and then when I was shaking up, flip myself over quickly and try like that. Yeah, I see, yeah. So yeah, it was it was not a it I didn't like slide into it smoothly from that perspective. Did did it did it develop over time? Like did it take like after the workshop, did it take some like like once I was in our time to okay, yeah, yeah. Once I was in, I was in, I had a huge emotional release uh in the workshop, which was yeah, that was massive, and that seemed to unlock it, and then from then on, I see. Uh yeah, it was it was cool, it was a lot easier. Yeah, it's it was fine. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. All right. Well, that's okay. So then I guess, yeah, let's just keep going with your story. So then you found you found you're you know, okay, you were getting a little bored of your massage therapy career. It was great, but a little bored. Then you found SOAS activation, which is awesome. Working deep in the PSOAS and the Iliacus, and that's awesome and crazy work. And then the universe led you to Dr. Burselli and you and tremoring, and that was and so so keep going. So, what what what happened now? Well, then obviously, then my natural progression was to combine it with the SOAS activations. Um, yeah, and that was next like that that just unlocked everything so much deeper. But of course, in our training, we weren't allowed to do that with people yet. So I had to sit on my hands for a good long while and not do it yet. Um yeah, but the training was obviously such a beautiful personal process uh becoming a provider. Back then we we had quite a bit of a long it was a long training. Um and then as this is all happening, I fall into the world of fashion. I have uh go to another workshop. Um and this was a pretty intense uh training, as in very painful. Um yeah. And my body just tremored afterwards. It was so traumatized by what had happened there. And yet it was undeniable by by I'm sorry, by by what by which training? I'm sorry, I missed it. It's called it used to be called linotherapy. Um, I think it still is, but it's also changed a lot. This was back then in the 2012. Yeah, never heard of it. And um it was also a brilliant course, but the actual technique was very uh excruciating. And and I think Alex, you and I even spoke about this pretty much a few years ago, like how when we do access fascia, people need to understand that it can naturally cause the tremor mechanism also because you're in the you're in the neural system. Yeah. Right. So that was for me a very clear uh example in my own body. And yeah, and then just kind of navigating, well, it's too painful, it's too much, it's too sore, it's like how yeah. Same sort of time I'm going to the the my first Fascia Congress, I think it was the fifth one, must have been. Yeah. It was in Washington. Fourth one, because is it every three? It's every three years, right? Something like that. Something like that. Yeah. 2018, 2020. Yeah, or every two years. I can't even remember to be honest. Okay. Um in 2015 I went uh to that first one. That was wonderful. I met the lady, uh, Dr. Vivica Elbrand, who does the she did the Tom Meyer slings for horses. So she was presenting her work back then, which I'd been waiting for. Yeah, because obviously having worked with Tom stuff for a while and the fascist slings and humans, it's like, come on. So she wasn't she's you mean she kind of you mean she sort of she kind of translates, she sort of found the outlined the meridian, the fascial uh trains for horses. That's kind of what her contribution is yeah, and she's a vet at Copenhagen University. So and she works with uh tuning forks, very gentle, uh yeah, yeah, very gentle way of working with the fascial slings on on the horses and the dogs. Yeah, yeah, so that was 2015, and then like so much research was coming through around how highly sensitive the neural system is, and how the receptors are so highly sensitive. And I was thinking, well, why are we hurting people like this when we don't have to? But having had that background myself, it's so hard to untrain. You know, going through this totally super light touch, but the horses actually taught me that. They they were amazing teachers. So I started to do fashion work with them, and but when it was too firm, initially they were like, ah, lady, no, definitely not like this. And so I would try a different way, and then I figured out a pretty easy solution to my problem, and they would start to tremor if it was dental, the horses would start to tremor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it started to fine-tune my touch that anything too hard, you kind of miss this beautiful in-between world. So taking the science of what we were learning. Um I also went to summer school in 2014 in Germany, where we were being taught by people like Carlos Deco and Robert Schleip, and Tom was there. Um, and they were teaching us personally, uh in like who did anatomy with Carlos Decko. That was incredible. And and the lectures, you know. So no one was teaching us how to do the body work, um, but they were telling us the science that made a lot of sense. Right. Like back or this is highly sensitive neural stuff you're playing with here. And um for me that was kind of it like learning then from the horses to get gentler and gentler and feel like I'm in that in-between world. Um and then the and then in the humans we got them starting to tremor, but in a very different way. In a in a more yeah, safe. The difference between safe touch and of course the old the old way. Torture touch. Yeah. Yep. Torture touch. Yeah, I've I've uh been in both worlds too. I've res I've received and given some torture touch, so I I know that I know that world as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've yeah, we've been there. Um well the I'm curious in the in how you I guess kind of can yeah, I guess can I ask a little bit about humans for a for a bit? Like how what um when you when you work with humans now, here I let me see if I can put my question into it clearly. Here's what I'm curious about. Are you using your the fascial work, meaning touch and fascial work, um, in finding that in-between world that you're describing? Are you using that as the entry point into neurogenic tremors um rather than sort of initiating through the butterfly sequence or something like that? Like are you are you primarily sort of using your touch as the as the elicitation of the tremors or or or or are do you go about it different ways, different situations? Different ways, different situations. Because I found even especially during and post-COVID, just just doing cranial holds would get people tremoring violently on the table without having a chance to kind of explain to them what's happening. So different different things. Um for I would say for the people who I have a feeling they might may need a bit more encouragement before entering or accepting the TRE process, then it's a wonderful way of looking through the body work first. You know, getting them then you have time to have the conversations and and you know, you should really try this, and this is really cool. Um if they have then legs up already while doing the now very gentle psoas iliacus releases, fine people often start tremoring naturally anyway. Organically. Organically, yeah, me too. Yeah, that's exactly what I see. So then it's like this is great. If I've by then it's nice if I've had the opportunity to have the conversation around TRE, but if not, it just kind of flows organically. I can't even say there's this protocol. Um I seldom have people who only come for TRE, they kind of want both. Yeah. So it's a nice way to end off stress. You're weaving these. Weaving them, especially with scar release sessions, to do the scar work, which can take you know however long, and then to complete that with a TRE session is profound if they haven't started tremoring during the scar work. So that's a bit one. Right. Yeah. So it it yeah, I do you sometimes Yeah, no, that sounds very fluid and organic. I can I can picture it. I can picture it pretty, pretty clearly. Well, how do you coach or advise your clients around, you know, do you sometimes do the do some of them uh kind of get into TRE and they kind of they want to tremor a bit on their, you know, between sessions? Do some of them sort of do any of their own personal work? How do you how do you direct that side of things? So um definitely encourage people to do that as the homework very much because and the SOAS stuff. I teach it to every student, client, like it's like guys, this is the homework that and the Tremoring, this is the homework. Like we've got other stuff to do. If you can get your basics going, then we're good. You know. Then we can fine-tune your sessions. And this is what I'm doing in the teach, in the training now, especially even, you know, I'm working with a lot of horse therapists that are feeling very disillusioned and very bit like vets, you know, there's a lot of pressure from the competition world, and now you're working with a sentient being, and then you've got a rider who's got a lot of pressure, and so the therapists have to be like, you know, it's why the veterinary world is injecting, injecting, injecting, you know, or it's there's no time for healing, there's no time for recuperation, it's just go, go, go a lot in that kind of world. I see. Now, the Aquine therapists are kind of feeling disillusioned and heartbroken and and all these kinds of things, and I feel like, okay, well, you're not gonna change an entire world of expectation in especially competition avenues. You know, you also have to find your clients that are more into alternative therapies, those are you know the better option. Um, but work on your own process. So for me, teaching them TRE for themselves, activations for themselves, so that they're not in pain just during their normal day when they're also working with these big animals, but really for the stress. So they have to all learn TRE, all of them. I see. It's like the rule. Yeah, makes sense. That's crazy. It's a stressful career to have. And yeah, so that's why I think it's that's really where I'm at the moment because I'm teaching more than I'm working hands-on, is implementing that for all therapists. Like you guys have to help yourselves. Yeah, do your do your own practice, it's gonna help, it's gonna help everything else that you do. Yeah, I love that. Um okay, can I well right? So now I want to ask a couple, can I ask about horses a little bit? Sure. Because humans, I've worked with a lot of humans. I and I I feel like I'm I maybe my own journey with working with humans might actually be quite dissimilar to yours in many ways, uh, with the heavy stuff and the SOAS work and and and then the evolution of things. But um, but I have absolutely never engaged with a horse therapeutically uh in any way. So I'm trying to picture things a little bit. Um and and so so one curiosity I have, so I can a little bit imagine maybe you know, kind of you know, putting putting hands on and and getting and I all and actually I do know a little bit about the the equine therapy world from the nervous system side, like not the manual therapy, but from the sort of um working with veterans and PTSD. I've I've heard I've heard I've learned a lot about that world, so I have a sense of that therapeutic use and so and the sort of the amazing sensitivity of horses, and and um so so I know that that's a a massive component of things. But I I guess I'm I'm thinking about the fact you know, you mentioned sort of finding the right touch in that in-between world with engaging the fascia with horses, and then uh tremoring would emerge. And what I'm trying to picture is like, are the horses standing? Uh is the tremoring happening like locally where you are? Do horses sometimes have a a full-body tremor the way we do with TRE? What position are they in? Like, help me help me imagine this a little bit. Okay. Uh it would be cool if we could like lay them on their backs for many things, including the sort. Totally, totally. It would be cool. I was hoping I was hoping maybe that's what you do. Get them to roll over on their back. Unfortunately, they have such big heavy organs, I think they wouldn't be very pleasant, very comfortable. Um yeah, so um actually the very first time that I did this experiment now um was when I got back from the the my summer school actually in 2014 in at University of Aum. And I thought, how would I do this on horses? I think I'm finally gonna just like get this right. Um yeah, and so I started to work with the touch actually going against the head because that gave me this sense of oh, I'm in. I'm in, I don't know. You understand that feeling when you're in, you're in. I do, I know exactly what you mean. And that very quickly got me in. And then I was just kind of experimenting with different forms of touch, like small slow and then a little quicker, and they definitely both did different things. But this horse that I was working on had been highly traumatized. It was a race horse, and it had had a really um rough time. I mean, they're all really most of them have a bit of you know, it hasn't been easy. I don't think any of them have really had it based 90%. Um he was very sweet, but he was rearing with people and and they were falling off, and this woman was trying to sell him and she couldn't, and blah blah blah. Long story short, he came to me and so I started doing this. And on the very first session, this I think he he came into my life to show me this. So I was just experimenting with this kind of touch and what to do, and he started a full body tremor all over his body for about five minutes. Wow. Oh my god, I wish you had had a GoPro camera on your head or something. We don't have it, we don't have enough video. Lisa, Lisa, I beg of you, I will pay you a thousand dollars if you can get a good video of a horse tremoring. I I'm not even joking. Because we only have we don't have enough okay, all right, good. All right. I'll put my money where my mouth is. I've been begging, I've been begging for this. We need you know, we've got you know, we have our polar bear, we have an impallop. We we need more actual footage of these things. Um I'm working that one of my colleagues is uh has uh is um connected to a uh uh wildlife photographer. Um I don't know where they're based in Africa, but who's worked with zebras a lot and has seen it a lot in zebras. And so now, and so he's he's been able to describe it, but he hasn't gotten footage of that. So we're like, okay, well, freaking get your you're a photographer, get your camera going. Um so anyway, anyway, keep going, keep going. So this horse started having full body tremors. And I was like, well, obviously I know what's happening here. So it was exactly the experiences that I'd been having in my body, he's having now. Um, and that blew me away. So I gave him a week between sessions, and I did the next one the next week. And this time I was expecting the same response, but I didn't get it. I got like very mild vibrations, much less, much less, like just a little bit, and then the third session, he just really had some fasciculations on the top of his back, and that was it. Right, yeah, wow, that is so cool. He had a complete, not I can't say personality change, because when when he was with me and just in the field and we weren't putting pressure on him, we weren't riding and we weren't doing anything with him, he was very, very sweet. He was like at the bottom of the herd. I actually had to take him out at one point because he's being so bullied. So I knew he was a sweet guy. I see. He wasn't an aggressive horse at all. Um, but we were riding him with halters on, just a halter bareback, the kids were riding him, my partner was riding him, and he's not a rider, and he was like, doesn't this thing go any faster? You know, through the forest. He was just epic, and that was three sessions. And incredible. That's an incredible story. I just I it was and no, he just obviously had he by releasing that huge amount of fear and well, you know, everything that we release. Oh my gosh, yeah, totally. He went he had a full a full discharge experience. Well, can I ask you a question? In that in that first session when he had the full body trembling all over, did it I mean, of course, you know, you were working, you know, you had connected into the the fashion, you were you know, you were engaged. Um did did his his tremoring persist like like if you went hands off, would it continue? Like what uh I went hands off once it started and I just observed, yeah, and then it kind of went like calmed down, and then I went on the other side and I did it, and then it like kind of came back, and then I just left him. And I just watched because I couldn't believe it. I was a bit like wow, I didn't realize this would put it. That is that is amazing. Yeah, so he was my big teacher, he came in to teach me that, and unfortunately, we lost him six months later to African horse sickness, which is terribly sad. But um it's clear to me that I needed such a strong visual, and he just gave that to me. And and it's not I've maybe seen it to that degree, I think twice personally. Okay, yep. It's not something that's the norm anymore. So so yeah, yeah. So it's not always sort of a full a full experience. You've seen it maybe twice. May have maybe some of your students have reported it here and there. I'd say I've got one film for you that's a student of mine that managed. Oh my god. Oh, oh my god, all right, all right. I'm we're chomping at the bit to use a horse metaphor. Um but so so are there sometimes so it sounds like you know, uh once in a while there's these full discharges, you know, maybe a little similar to when we watch these videos of the Impala or whatever, you know. Um and then there's sometimes something, um, there's tremoring that's what a little bit more a little bit more local, perhaps, or we can have local or 90% of the time deeper. That's what's crazy. Like if I I would love to do the research, um there is definitely something much deeper going on, and you can see it in their eyes. They're like processing, and then there's a lot of muzzle tremoring, a lot of muzzle, and and the eyes are growing and then they kind of twitch. And that's that's all the time. Like that's and I think it's breed specific because thoroughbreds and Arabs, you know, the Arabian horses and the thoroughbreds are really um they are more highly nervous, they're more like a little dog. We don't see the labrador tremoring as much as the Jack Russell. It's that. Right, correct. Yep. So Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, you know, you that that's such a good example with with dogs that there's you know, the there's there's different that the different breeds are more quivery and trembly. And it makes me think about, I've never really thought this much, but about sort of the the yeah, in humans, the the diversity of humans. You know, there's humans that our nervous systems are not the same, you know. Um, but that that's a that's an interesting interesting thing to reflect on. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean they've had their Well, you know what we'll do? Tell us, tell them. Yeah. Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say all the the thing that the domestic animals have in common is the interaction with the crazy humans. So you know, we're making their nervous systems not as regulated as they should be. Yep, that's a good point. Um, you know what we'll do? I think I think we'll just edit if if you're willing to, if you're if you're if you're willing to share it the horse, the we'll just we'll just yeah, yeah, we'll just weave it into this, we'll we'll we'll splice it in, and then we'll be our our audience can can get a view. So that's that's awesome. Yeah, cool. Wow, well that sounds like it must just be it must just be incredible to have. I mean, working with humans is incredible, and I imagine working with horses is has its own, you know, unique um qualities about just sort of connection and and whatnot. It's what my I think my my biggest wish would be, and I'm actually working on putting my equine course fully online, um, is really, you know, there's enough people, even in our human world, you know, you have developed like very step-by-step courses, and it's all very, you know, it's great. But I want to actually reach the the horse owners because it's a completely different way to interact with your animal. And it's giving back. Even in the world, like you say, with PTSD and the soldiers and the people having equine therapy where the animals are giving to the humans, it's like it's their natural things to give and be of service to us. But I kind of feel like that's all good and well, and it is amazing, and it works, and I'm I'm not knocking it. But we have to have the balance of where we're also giving back to them where there's no expectation. Like I want to show that narrative that somehow it's okay to have your dog, but yeah, we're just extracting the the the co-regulation from yeah, our dogs and and horses, and you you're right, it is extra if it's only one directional, that's that's pretty exploitative, actually. It's active. So I would like, you know, if someone is an equine trauma therapist, then to learn how to how to give back is very is very profound. And yeah, I mean it gets we've had some incredible, I've had people communicate with me from around the world kind of saying the horses have said, like, okay, um they want more touch. I'm like, okay, well, we can teach you how to do that. And and I think because the fashion world is so beautiful because it's simple, the concepts are simple, it's really not that difficult. And because we're weaving it in with our understanding of the polyvagal theory and the trauma stuff, um it's actually so much easier than people think, it's not complicated. So yeah. And a big part of the therapy for me for humans and and horses and dogs, um, is working on the viscera, doing working on the belly, working on the abdomen. It's kind of the places nobody ever could go. And that's amazing to watch animals, especially how they respond. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Um the scared, of course. That is something people don't even think about. Um I mean animals get branded. Yeah. And all the concentrations. And all the spaying. Yeah. And then we wonder why. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. How many how many people do you think you have trained at this point in this in your work? I mean, you you do a lot of teaching, so I mean you must have Do you know like I lost a whole database in the early days, even from like 2011? Because yeah, I lost my my email address. That's just me. That's why I should not even work with tech, right? Um But anyway, hundreds of hundreds of thousands of people, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they all have to tremor, so it's their big homework. So yeah, definitely thousands by now, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is your you, you know, I I I uh I maybe uh maybe all of your workshops are in person. I think most of them are. Do you do any online teaching or not not particularly? I did a lot during COVID uh for horses because we actually my dad is a documentary filmmaker, and I was lucky enough to coerce him into making a technique video for me on the horses in 2021. And it's still such a great, it's a three, you know, three broken into three parts. So um I did theory with the people online, we did like SOAS activations and Bottle Scar work, and then they could they watch the videos and do that step by step with their own horses. Um, and I haven't done one for a long time, and I'm doing one next weekend. Actually, for the first time in a month. Oh cool, oh cool. Yeah, yeah. So soon. Oh, cool, awesome. Well, let's yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about the Fascial Congress. So before you reached out to me, I was already excited about this one, the upcoming one in August in New Orleans, because what I was already excited about was that uh Stephen Porges from Polyvagal Theory is one of the keynote speakers there. And I thought, and maybe he's been there in the past, but I don't know, I don't think so, or it's at least been off my radar. Yeah. And so I thought that was a big deal because, you know, I I'm a person, I mean, in fact, this whole sort of neurogenetic integration website and project that I'm working on with Steve, the Norwegian colleague, it's and it's about our goal is sort of like, hey, uh, can, you know, uh let's make sure that the fascial people are talking to the tremoring people are talking to the craniosacral people, and you know, basically, can all these wisdoms, you know, be in and they are, I mean, of course they are in dialogue, but can there be more of that? So there's just cross-fertilization. So when I saw that Dr. Porgis would be there, I was like, great, good, because now we have the polyvagal theory talking to the people who are, you know, really moving forward of the science and uh uh understanding of fascia as such and a such an important thing to understand scientifically and apply it sort of therapeutically. So I thought that was a really good sign. And then you reached out to me and you said, Hey, good I got accepted to do a TRE workshop, and I was like, thank God. Um, so so I feel like it's a worlds coming together kind of a situation. How how are you feeling about the upcoming conference? Um, well, like you, when I saw that he is like really one of the top keynote speakers, um I was just I was beyond myself because this is what, like you said, this is what we've been waiting for. And also, can I just say, if you Google, I don't know if I'm knocking people in Germany here, it's nothing to do with you personally, but if you Google the polyvagal theory here, it's kind of says, oh, you know, uh, not too sure. Um, Google search actually doesn't really bring up that much positive stuff. And because there's so much political science here, like if I've told my students, I say, Oh, Google polyvagal theory, you know, and then they come back and they're like, Well. My gosh, this man has written hundreds of books. He's like, there's no way. Just you know, he's the man. Anyway, long story short, we've got our German scientists coming together with our American scientists, and this is what the Fascia Congress makes, it's what makes them so special. Is it's clinicians, it's scientists, it's medical personnel, it's you know from everywhere. And they just they have these conversations. And I see he's included uh that he's saying, you know, it's in your the fascial interception, da-da-da. And it's it's just great. Because it's like you know, it's what we've been waiting for, and he's gonna be doing this. So I'm super happy, very, very happy to have him. Yeah. I think there are only seven keynotes, but six, and he's it, he's one of them. Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. What was the what was the process like for you to apply? Um Uh-huh. So yeah, we had to submit um, it was quite a lot of paperwork to fill in to kind of say what is your what do you want to do, and which kind of thing would it fit into. So hands-on workshop for me was the thing that made sense. And then I also I could have done the equine as well. Uh, because there's, you know, I could have done veterinary perspective. I've I'm obviously not a vet. Um. But then I thought, you know what, at the end of the day, TRE to bring the TRE world to the fashion people, that's that's pretty cool. I don't think anyone's got that on their radar yet enough. I mean, of course there are many, right. Many, but um, and from what I've seen scrolling through the you know, the lot of the little workshops that are happening, it's so many people who are putting body, mind, soul together. You know, we're using the pressure to somatically to work with trauma and that kind of thing through touch. So this is wonderful. It's like it's all coming together finally. Cool. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh good. Well, maybe we'll you know what we should do if you're up for it. Let's do a um let cause because I I wanted to go this year, but I shared with you I can't go because uh uh because of pre-planned uh time being in Europe. Um and I was yeah, I should have planned better. But um if you're up for it, what if we have a post-conversation uh after the Congress uh because it would be interesting to hear what yeah, what conversations arise and and come up around it. So uh if you're if you're up for it, let's do a let's do a part two. That's cool. I'd love that. Yeah, because we we've been told in a lot of film the sessions, but I can I can give you feedback. Like I said to you earlier, I have now no idea how I'm gonna do this because our 40 minutes turned into 20 minutes, and I think I'm just gonna be creative. Um I I yeah, I I um my here here, uh my trade with you for the um for the horse video instead of my thousand dollars will be um if and not saying this is it will be necessarily worthwhile to you, but what I'll do is I'll share with you just in case you because I presented for the craniosacral people, right? This was the one in Romania I was telling you about. And if you're curious, I'll share, I'll share the the presentation I put together just in case there's anything any ideas in there that are useful or whatever. So I'll I'll that'll be my trade if you're if if if it if it's enough of a trade. Yeah, because it's hard. You know, they they were mentioning we had a meeting yesterday and they're kind of saying, look, we realize you guys do like three-day workshops, four-day workshops, you know. Now we're asking you to condense everything into 20 minutes. Um keep that in mind, and we're like, oh wow, yeah, that's it's not gonna be easy, but yeah, we'll figure it out. But yeah, any tips are are helpful, and at this point I'm gonna lie on the print and trimmer for everyone, see what happens. Um yeah, I think maybe that'll be a cool introduction to TRE. It'd be a super cool introduction. Yeah, yeah. Uh wow. Um good. Well, yeah, well, let's see. Yeah, um, anything else that feels like we should cover today? Anything anything upcoming for you or any new emerging directions or interests, or what um yeah, I I want to develop a whole new workshop around the human algorithm. I've been looking into well, I've been training with um some very amazing teachers uh around sort of the Native American ancient teachings, and we have some very clear human algorithm uh teachings that the ancients knew about. And um that is fascinating because I think it's almost the next level of integration. Like now we the TRE and the somatic work and the feeling our bodies and the interreception and the fashion, that's all like really amazing, and then it's like okay, but how do I stop myself? How do I get out of the loops? How can I live in awareness when I have actually a fully uh embedded algorithm in how I behave? It's pretty interesting. Uh yeah, well, yeah, anyway, so so no, no, I'm super interested. So yeah, can you can you share I I love that term, the human algorithm. It's uh it's like interesting, but uh can you share can you yeah, say a little bit more about what what that means, that term, you know, the the human algorithm. Well, it's a little bit out there, right? So I don't know in the audience how many people are into woo. So let's just go for it. Um we all we all we all have varying degrees. We all we all have at least a little bit of woo, and I'm sure um nice. Yeah, because it seems to be connected to our star science that we kind of come into this world and then we have very specific um when someone would say to us, oh let's do some shadow work, and you know, in in terms of the psychological and psychotherapy and shadow work, uh that's all fine. Yeah, but when someone can give you the formula of like, dude, this is your shadow, exactly, you do it like this. This is how you spin out, this is when you're wait, is it is it like is this is it related? Have you ever have you heard of human design? Is it similar to that? Everyone asks me this, and that's super interesting. Now then I had to Google the human design guy, and I see he kind of has his own download, um, which is facing it. Okay, okay, so it's not it's not that, it's not that. It's not that, but it sounds like it's like when you put the human design stuff on top, even the Enneagram stuff, it's they're all kind of like sure. They have a thing. So this is yeah, and this is from the twisted hair tradition of uh shamanic Native American people from South and North America, the people of Turtle Island where you live. So it's it's uh very old. Um yeah, and they were like, okay, so when you're in your victim and when you're in your spin and when you're in those dark places, I've kind of put that together with the polyvagal theory and our trigger responses. So I'm amalgamating that. And it's fascinating. Cool. So you're you are you're you're developing a course in this direction, you mean? Yeah. Wow. I've kind of I've been including it in my training already. Because like I say, for whether you're gonna be a human therapist or an equine therapist, the important thing is that you know yourself. You're gonna be a better placebo, as Dr. Larima Mosley says. Um, people are gonna feel safer around you and heal better if you can just know yourself and work on your self-healing, right? So this is just deepening that process for me to be my own personal process, yeah. And bringing that in. Um, that's when you say do I feel something, that's brewing in a big way. Yeah. That's kind of what I feel is the next thing. That's what's that's what's brewing. That's what's coming, that's what's coming through next. Wow. All right, I love that. Well, what if we what if we land here? This has been this has been awesome, and then I'm glad we have this idea to do a follow-up conversation so we can we can hear about the uh the the Fascial Congress work and the the meeting of different worlds coming together there. But but Lisa, no, this has been um yeah, really lovely to hear about just your own journey and evolution and how you've been guided by curiosity and in important teachers and and just uh how things have unfolded and and um no what a what a lovely description of of uh how you have worked with humans and horses and and the work you're doing teaching others. It's it's very inspiring. So really appreciate all you're sharing. Great, awesome. Cool. That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drawing. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people interested in this transformative work. And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.