E06 - Safe and Sound Listening + Neurogenic Tremoring with Jenna Anderson

Alex Greene talks with Jenna Anderson, a TRE provider and Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP) practitioner who has been combining these two powerful nervous system approaches since 2017. Jenna explains how Dr. Stephen Porges' SSP uses a specialized algorithm that "dances" with the nervous system through filtered music, making it fundamentally different from regular therapeutic audio you might find on streaming platforms.

The conversation explores why SSP and TRE work so effectively together—both target nervous system regulation but through different pathways. SSP works through the auditory system to activate social engagement, while TRE uses the body's natural tremor response to release stored tension. Jenna describes her bi-weekly group classes where participants experience both approaches together, creating what practitioners call "amplified results" through combined delivery.

This episode covers the practical details of Jenna's combined SSP + TRE classes offered through the Neurogenic Integration platform, and she shares the process for joining these integration workshops held every other Tuesday at 9 AM Pacific (10 AM Mountain, 6 PM Paris time) starting on August 26,2025. The episode also highlights professional development opportunities for TRE providers interested in becoming SSP certified and emphasizes how this combination addresses root causes of nervous system dysregulation rather than just managing symptoms.

Learn more about Safe and Sound Listening + Neurogenic Tremoring class:
 
Key Highlights:
0:03 - Jenna's background introduction
2:22 - SSP development history 
3:02 - Simple SSP explanation
 8:29 - Porges concept "availability" 
10:03 - SSP historical evolution 
15:50 - Provider supervision requirements 
16:42 - SSP versus other music 
17:38 - Client Types and Benefits of SSP 
21:03 - Group versus individual sessions 
24:15 - Class structure overview 
27:17 - Onboarding process steps 
31:45 - Alex's practice integration 
35:07 - Multiple healing portals 
37:35 - TRE provider eligibility

Links and Resources:
Dr. Stephen Porges and Polyvagal Theory: https://www.polyvagalinstitute.org/
Unite SSP Platform (official app): https://www.unyte.com/
Neurogenic Integration Website: https://neurogenicintegration.com/
Sign up to SSP + TRE Integration Classes: Every other Tuesday, 9 AM Pacific: 
TRE Foundation Resources: https://traumaprevention.com/
Professional SSP Certification: https://www.unyte.com/provider-training/

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green. And I am Sebia Sung Shields. Together we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research. Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you. Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being. So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. All right, welcome everybody. I'm excited to be sitting down this afternoon with Jenna Anderson. And Jenna is a colleague and friend who I've known going on probably since about the pandemic. And uh Jenna is a TRE provider, craniosacral therapist, um, SSP, safe and sound listening, practitioner, a whole bunch of things other than that. Um but uh what we're and and Jenna has been a key facilitator and participant in the neurogenic integration community as we have developed this year, 2025, and kind of gotten things off the ground a bit more formally. And she was a part of a facilitator uh in the leading up to this year when we were a bit more informal in the neurogenic integration. I think we called it the neurogenic tremoring lab at that point. So in any case, I've it's been my pleasure to know and work with Jenna for a while, and she's such an innovative um practitioner in weaving in qigong and nervous system work and uh movement work uh alongside tremoring. And so um uh in a big picture sense, we've had some wonderful opportunities with Jenna's facilitation in the neurogenic integration community this year. But today, specifically, what we want to talk about is a modality that uh both uh Jenna and I work with, but we're gonna focus especially on Jenna's work with this, and it is an approach called the Safe and Sound Listening Protocol, which is a music therapy developed by Dr. Stephen Porgius, who is the founder of the Polyvagal Theory, which we so often talk about when we talk about TRE and somatic experiencing and all these things. And Jenna is and has been doing introductory classes as well as uh now drop-in classes of what uh what she calls TRE or tremoring and SSP integration, uh. meaning it's classes where both modalities are explored together. Sometimes where there's SSP listening and then there's TRE. Sometimes there may be combinations where the two are occurring together. Um and it's a model called uh combined delivery that that sometimes uh is used with the safe and sound protocol. Um even the organization that runs it um uh encourages uh these kinds of and I'll get more into that story as we get into the details a little bit. But in any case, Jenna and I are going to be talking about the safe and sound protocol, um, what it is, what it isn't, and um how she's working with that uh in this class experience that some of you may want to participate in. So, Jenna, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Thank you, Alex. I'm so grateful to be here with you. And yes, it's been five years. I did a little training with Joan McDonald around TRE at the beginning of the pandemic, and how do we do this online? And she recommended you because I was really interested in being able to connect with clients and still work with people. And she said, Alex really has this down. And so even before the pandemic, you were reaching out around the world and working with people. And I'm just really I was I've just been grateful ever since to have worked with you and have learned from you and learned how to share and continue to connect with people through the ups and downs of connectivity that we've had over the last five years. You've been um just a real angel in my life that way. Thank you. And then the shares and the neurogenic integration as well. Um, I love that Feldenkrais lesson last week. That was so great for me. And it's just wonderful that you've been building this community to support people and to continue and to heal and grow and become more and more knowing who they are and how they want to engage with the world. Well, thank you. Oh, thank you. Well, all right. Well, we're to me, it's a team effort, and all of us are are showing up to do it because we believe in it. So it's it's it's been a wonderful ride so far. Sometimes I have to remind myself what is August. So we are what, eight months in to the kind of the launch, and I'm like, wow, we're we're doing great. We're having workshops, we've got classes, we've got all kinds of activities going on. So I'm really pleased with how the community has organically really, really grown and developed. Awesome. So let's can we dive in? Awesome. Sure. So yeah, so let's talk just a little bit about what the safe and sound protocol is and its history and its origins, just a little bit. And so maybe like why don't you you give your version of it? If there's anything I want to add in, I will. Um, but yeah, like so, so if you were kind of gonna describe SSP or give the background to a new client or in an introductory workshop, yeah, well, how do you tend to explain it? There's different ways that I might explain it depending on how what I know about them already. But someone who maybe doesn't know a lot about these types of therapies and modalities, I might say, have you heard of the polyvagal theory? Well, Stephen Porgis is the founder of that theory, and he developed this listening program that helps to dance with your nervous system. It's a five-hour program that just helps you to get more connected into what you might be working on, and it'll help your other therapies and the other things that you're doing become more effective and be able to go deeper with those. So it's a nervous system tool. It's another tool that we use. I wouldn't introduce it as a standalone because it wasn't intended that way. But for some people, if they've done a lot of work on themselves already, this might be just the thing to give them their next, their next big jump in growth. Oh, yeah, that's so great. That's a really good explanation. Um something that I I had I uh twice I've been in a a small Zoom call with with Dr. Porges when we were inviting him to um uh do some interviews and speak for the TRE community. And and and and it won't and I got on the Zoom call first, and then he got on, and David, Dr. Biselli hadn't joined yet. So nobody else, so it was just him and I, and we were talking for a moment and we're kind of chit-chatting. And and then he said, Okay, there, good. Now now we're available to one another. I feel available to you, and you seem available to me. And and and that really uh stood out to me that he kind of you know put it puts his money where his mouth is in terms of this, his whole framework around social engagement. But that term availability really stuck with me. And I think um and it's the idea that when we're in defense physiology, if we don't know somebody yet, if or if we're stressed about something, then we're still physically existing there with the other person, but there's ways in which we're not available to them because our social engagement nervous system um isn't there to be in reciprocal relationship. Um and so this idea that we had we were just getting to know each other and that we needed that chit-chat, and then he said, Okay, there, now I'm available to you, and I think you're available to me. He could kind of see when any defensive physiology had settled, and now we're uh in communication. But I sometimes I think back on that when I think about the SSP because in some ways I think that's what his goal, when you mention it being combined with other approaches, is that his goal is that it's a listening pathway that opens up through the through the middle ear, and we can talk about that, opens up our social engagement nervous system, and then makes us more receptive and available. If if we can kind of get that transition to occur where our ventrovagal social engagement nervous system is more here, then we're more available and receptive to anything else that we do. So hearing your description just kind of made me think of that um um the way he languages and emphasizes that. Oh, well, thank you. That's uh kind of a compliment because I've always um thought of Dr. Porges as being very intelligent in his speaking, and that when I was first training in the SSP, I had to sometimes listen to some of the training two or three times, the original training, um, to really grasp what he was saying. But there have been other times, um, like when I saw him at a cranial sacral conference, and um when I had the good fortune to be on a Zoom call with him too about the rest and restore protocol, that he he does exactly what you said. He walks his talk, and every answer brings it back to what is the polyvagal presentation? That is the answer. That's where we're going. And also, like, let's be available to each other, let's take a deep breath, let's get into the space together and make sure that we're operating in our highest functionality for coming together socially and doing, you know, what are, you know, meeting our goals here. So I I agree. So thank you. That's a compliment to to me to say that um I made any sort of sense compared to talking about. No, you made a lot of sense. You made a lot of sense. Um what what do you know about the the the history and the development um of the SSP? Like, you know, he kind of originally, I think it was intended for a sort of a smaller audience, like children and with a maybe an autism focus, but then it's it's broadened a lot after that. Can you share a little bit about that timeline? Yeah, a little bit. Um to me, I just know tidbits and I know that different there have been different intentions over the years. Like initially it was uh one hour a day for five days in a row. That's how it started out. And then um there was a learning pretty quickly that people responded differently and needed more integration time. And there's even people now who do micro-dosing of the SSP and um work with it that way with the other modalities. And and I know that there's at least 10,000 providers around the world now, and so we've gone from this small, very specific use of the SSP to um people using it for just about everything around the world, and that's because our nervous systems are so unique that when you have your nervous system working a little better, it can affect anything in the body, any part of our physiology. So I yeah, I don't know that I can talk to more about that. I mean, I think I was introduced to the safe and sound in about 2017 originally. I have a relative that's a mental health counselor, and I'd also heard of it in other places, and he said that I should just go get trained because he wasn't going to be, he loved it, but he was just so busy at that time with his regular program that he wasn't going to be offering it. And so I went and did the initial training. I know the training's been updated since then. I've updated the training, but I'm not um I know the polyvagal theory has probably been around for about 30 years now, but I'm not exactly sure what happened between there. There was an integrated listening systems process that I'm not part of. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, but I think you're absolutely right. Well, uh, and I'm I think it's have you have you gotten the new book? Yeah, yeah. So you know, Unite, the the website that that hosts the SSP. You know, one uh they to me they've always done a good job of um having really n useful information on their website. What I really am impressed by, and I want us to do this in the TRE world as well, is um is the case studies, the case studies that are very well documented and written that are showing the very the lots of different use cases from misophonia, being sensitive to sound, to long COVID case studies, anxiety, depression. Um I have learned a lot by just paying attention to some of these different case studies. And that's actually I was on the airplane reading this book uh a few weeks ago. And you know, they kind of went into the science in a nice way, which is great, but I kind of know that by now. And um but yeah, it was it was sort of as they discussed the the the continued broadening of the use that you know uh we're starting to see that it's it's um as you say has far-reaching benefits because nervous shifting states in the nervous system is a precursor to so many other shifts, yeah, whether that's physical, health-related, um, mental, psycho-emotional, um, there's so many different things. Well, well, let's talk a little bit about not the class yet, but your you know, uh maybe more of your one-on-one use of the SSP. Um who are the kinds of people that you when uh what are the kinds of situations when you're likely to use it? Is this people with um yeah, what what who are the people where you think, hey, let's give this a try? I get referrals a lot uh from uh naturopathic doctors and chiropractors and other providers that say, hey, go see Jenna, ask her about safe and sound, and then so I'll bring them in and I'll usually do a physical assessment as well and some body work and kind of see what I notice in their body there and if what seems appropriate to help them with their ventrovagal system. And then we'll talk, I'll do some initial listening in the office, and some people will go ahead and go remote pretty quickly. Again, a lot of my clients are working on more than um one modality, so they're well supported and they've tried a lot of things. And some people will choose to continue to see me every week or so in between to get updates and um all all types of all types of situations. Um injury recovery when it's not going as planned. Um a lot of people with all kinds of stress, family stress, job stress, um people having a hard time engaging in work, engaging with their family, um, auditory sensitivities, um, all types of craniosacral challenges. And when we you know bring the nervous system into a different level of flexibility and resilience, then the body responds better physiologically to the treatment. So there's just a many, many different uses for it. And you know, there is an assessment of seeing you know how available and interested they are in listening, if with you know, using headphones or if we're going to put them on stereo speakers for the program, what kind of time they can carve out in their life to have a session of listening. And so that's another reason why it works so well with TRE, because if they're already making time for their tremor practice, then sometimes we can piggyback on that with the listening therapy too. Um can you speak a little bit about in my mind, there's there's actually a whole wide world of therapeutic music. There's there's binaural beats, there's uh hemisync. There's uh there's uh there's there's people doing very, very interesting work with um with brainwave entrainment and bilateral stimulation, um, some of which you can get on Spotify and and and and um Apple Music and stuff. And and SSP isn't like that. You you you have you it's you have to access it through a particular app. And it's it's not it's um but could you share a little bit what are the differences with the SSP as compared to some of these other therapeutic, more more widely available um therapeutic listening? There's a few differences. The key difference is the algorithm behind the SSP that is proprietary, that, like I said in the beginning, dances with your nervous system. So that's the main one. You're not just listening to a set frequency or a set beat. It's actually dancing with you. There's five hours of music altogether, and each music has a different way that it that it accesses your nervous system through the auditory pathway. That's one way. And then the other is that you need to get approval from a provider to receive your listening license on the app. So you could go into the app store and load something, but you don't know what that is. With Unite, you would get an invitation to get on the actual Unite app and have your own listening license. Uh, once you're in there, your you and your provider will decide which music playlist you'll listen to. There's different choices. Um, I find that a lot of people choose classical, freely originals. Um, Wonder is great for some children, but I have some adults that like the Wonder playlist too. Um, some people like the groove, especially on their second time through when they're exploring, they want to explore it in a little different way. Well, no, no, just briefly. To me, it's so um in the last year or two, there's now there's now many more choices. Like a few years back, you know, it was kind of like there was sort of one. Well, there was so there's sort of like the main version, and then there was the kids' version, you know, the one what what became wonder. And then then we had the classical version, which helped, but now there's there's so many more genres. And um, I think it's nice to have those choices. I'm really glad that they that they did that. Um my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, but that the the the the the the um algorithm is actually the same with these different music, and so it's gonna have the same effect. It's more about what the listening preference is. You know, do you want to listen to vocal pop music or instrumental um uh classical music? It's more about preference, wouldn't you say? Yeah, definitely. So the program underlying each uh playlist, the filter is the same. So each of the five hours has its own program, and that will be the same throughout the playlist, but it'll give you like different choices while you're doing the underlying algorithm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um let's see, what would be good to cover? Well, so so talk a little bit about how you support people with this because uh I imagine sometimes that's one-on-one online, maybe. One-on-one in person, and then you've been doing groups for a while, and now you're including some this integration of TRE and SSP. We'll get to that in our conversation. But just what are the different ways that you facilitate this with people? I do one-on-one in person and online for sure. And then I've done groups online. All of my groups have been on Zoom because they've had people from different states, different countries attending there. And um, those are the main ways. I'm trying to think if there's another way. I think those are the main ways that I've been offering the same. And I guess remote listening would be another way. Sometimes once I get them started, then I check in on them periodically and see if they need any support. Remote listening, meaning people listening independently but under your supervision. Right. Independently. And with that, the kind of the the cool thing about being um um a provider uh is like Jen and I, if if you're if you're under our license, then we we can um then we can kind of observe. We can see when you did a session, we can see how many times you paused. It's like we have a dashboard, um, which is helpful in in just um make you know, just following the process and things like that. But um why don't you why don't you share a little bit about what are the what are the differences between doing one on one work, um group work, uh solo, all by yourself work. How do you how do you see that? What's the difference between those methods? I think the biggest difference that I found in One of the reasons that I was inspired to do the group work is that there's an extra layer of social engagement when we're doing this together in a group than there is just one-on-one. It's it was always designed. I should I don't know if I should use the word always, but it was designed to be provided with a provider that you were having an experience of social engagement with, because that's just as important, that feeling of safety with your provider as the music algorithm. And having a small group where we create community, that is just another layer of support. So of course, people expect to be held and nurtured by their provider, by their chosen provider that's going on this journey with them. But then having a community hold and support you is just another layer that I find for many people is very therapeutic and just what they need, especially if they are more isolated. And they can be around people all day long and still feel isolated with what they're working on. Yeah. Well, so um what is the flow of a group class like? Like what and what are you finding so far as you do groups that are not even as you're starting to weave in uh TRE and the listening? Well, what what what what what are you seeing so far and how it's going? Yeah, so I've done groups anywhere from three weeks long to ten weeks long. Um really up to 12 weeks because at the end we went every other week because of holidays. Um and this fall I'll probably do about a five-week group. I feel like three weeks is just a little bit short. And the times that I've done three-week groups, it's typically with um another coach that is just bringing me in to do the SSP part of a greater experience of modalities. Um, so that was okay. But I think uh five weeks will be nice. We'll start off just, you know, answering all the basic questions about um the different ways people can listen, what to do and not to do when you're listening. I'll start introducing usually breath work is where we'll start because that's kind of one of the quickest, easiest ways to affect your nervous system. So I want to make sure that people are comfortable experiencing different types of breath, and they have one that's readily available in their toolkit. So I'll usually start there. We'll cover the audit, we'll cover some of the nerves that are involved and learn a little bit more about that. Um, a lot of somatic tools in the groups because it's an experiment where I'll usually bring three to five a week in the groups so that people can try different things because not everything works for everybody. So we want to make sure that they're finding activities that are useful for them. And um it'll we get a little the sharing gets a little bigger as we go on. Initially, um, it's not as much because sometimes people are coming to these groups and they haven't felt comfortable with social engagement at all, which is why they're you know doing the safe and sound protocol, but they're ready to take that next step. So we want to do that in a gentle way. Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, so then for the the Tuesday class that you have begun, alternating Tuesdays on the Neurogenic Integration website, can you give us just the general details, the times, um, the duration? Um what's what what getting started looks like if somebody yeah what's the onboarding process? Because they need, you know, they need to become um um uh a subscriber to the SSP license and all that. So just sort of talk that through because I think it's it's um some people haven't gotten have it's been a little confusing for a few uh of the people. So let's let's make it as clear as we can. Thank you, Alex. I really appreciate this opportunity to clarify because number one, I didn't want to turn anybody away if they're showing up and finding the time useful to be there, because I will have um some sort of inspiration at the beginning that I'll do my best to record so that people can keep up when they're not there. And that would be useful to most people. Um, we will have a shake, and if they're already part of the neurogenic integration community, that will be useful to them. But the listening piece does require some extra steps because we would need to do an intake with them to make sure, you know, it's the right time for them to get started with that, and then um do payment for the license, get the license loaded on either their tablet or their phone, whatever device they're going to be using. Make sure they have you know the right headphones or stereo speakers or some way to get the delivery in the purest form possible because it does matter with the music that you're it's not um filtered in addition to it's the intended filter. You don't want an extra filter, you want the intended filter. We don't want an extra filter, yeah. And so just getting them set up that way, and then we're having it every other Tuesday, uh 9 a.m. Pacific, so that would be 10 mountain, and I believe I think it's 6 p.m. 7 in Paris, Oslo. Yeah. Yeah, maybe 5 p.m. London, I forget. Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, so and the intention is to have it every other week. So there's an ongoing place that people can drop in and get support as their experience with the music changes because typically people will start off listening to a certain amount, and then that will change depending on how it's going as they change with the program. Yeah. Oh, very cool. And is the intention, so if somebody's um gets the license on boards with you one-on-one, gets set up, gets the app going, and now they start joining the the Tuesday uh class, um, can they be doing some listening in between, or is that a case-by-case situation? How do how does how does that part work? That's a super great question. That's going to be different for people, but for most people, I would hope that they are doing some listening. I usually like people to listen every other day if they can. Sometimes we'll do an every three-day setup a couple times a week. I I believe once a week is kind of minimum. Like if especially if you're doing shorter amounts of time with the music. And beyond that, um I, you know, it it just seems like we'd be almost starting over if we were only listening once every two weeks. So an option would be that they could do a short like half hour in between with me if they wanted to be supervised all the time, which some people do, or they could just try a shorter amount on their own after we've determined that you know they were um they had a good response to five minutes together. Maybe they just try a minute or two or three minutes on their own in between. But usually once a week, every other day is great because that gives you a day between to see how you're doing. And some people work up to everyone. And then at some point, well, if somebody was doing it every other day or every day, or that then, you know, it's five hours of music is a lot, but it's also not a ton. What happens when somebody reaches the end of a of a five hour, you know, they've they've gone through the five hours. What do you encourage in terms of taking a pause? Or what what what's your thought on that? There's a few different directions we could go. It's really going to be individual at that point. And I find that most people have an idea of what they want to do. Like they don't want to set it down just yet because maybe they've they're they're they're feeling changed and they still want to go keep going. So one option is they start a new playlist at the beginning. Another option is they redo hour five, another option is they do the balance playlist. Um, maybe they're in a situation where we do a round of the rest and restore protocol and work with that for a while. So there are lots of options for them when they get to the end of hour five. And some people will do that sooner more than other people. And then I even have options that I explain in my group if they're moving through more slowly, so we can get them a taste of each hour. But I have like specific parameters that I use if we're going to move them through the five hours more quickly with smaller doses before they do the whole five hours again. So um there are so many choice choices. There are almost as many choices as there are, you know, types of people that are that are using the the protocol. Great. Um perfect. Uh yeah, in some ways, I think that's I feel like that's clarifying for sort of how that class works. Um so that will be good to to help uh get this information out there. Um, the other comment I would make um before we close is just for any TRE providers who might be listening, you TRE providers can become SSP um practitioners. When this was, I think, in COVID. This was when I first became an SSP um provider, and we were uh working with Porgis and the when they were just starting the Polyvagal Institute. And um uh I I'll take some credit here. I lobbied and I said, hey, listen, TRE providers have the right background and education to they know polyvagal theory and they know about self-regulation and monitoring the autonomic state. TRE providers would be would be great candidates um for uh the have uh being able, eligible to become an SSP provider. And and they agreed, they said, yeah, totally. So anyway, so I think something I take a little bit of credit for is opening the door for um TRE providers to be able to um um uh train. Because originally it was clinical psychotherapists, and then it started to broaden into, you know, I think acupuncturists. Um there is sort of they kind of opened it as the entire methodology opened. Um I know of at least a few other TRE people who are exploring with SSP, um, but I haven't connected with anybody else around it in a long time. What about you? Are you are you in touch with any TRE colleagues that are also SSP people? Or I feel like we're all so busy. Right. Yeah. So not off the top of my head, but that was my pathway into. I know there's a long list of licenses now that are approved to become uh certified as a safe and sound um protocol provider. And but my pathway was through TRE, and uh it must have been through you in some ways. One of my um TRE teachers said, we can, you know, we have been approved to work with Borgis in this way. And um yeah, so that was where I started in 2017. Yeah, oh very cool. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I might know the same ones that you know, Alex. Very good. As far as other providers that are maybe blending the modalities. But yeah, I there's so many people doing different um different styles of work with the safe and sound and the TRE and other so many other modalities right now. I really like to lean into somatic supports for and to me, um uh to me, this uh fits so well with the intentions and the themes of neurogenic integration as the community, because the goal with neurogenic integration has been, you know, in many ways, uh TRE and neurogenic tremoring is all is all is, in a sense, the core, because that's the common thing. But then the the investigation has been how can other nervous system or somatic approaches support breath work, Feldenkrais work, myofascial work, qigong, um uh uh uh SSP. And to me, the SSP is such a natural fit because of that. The the the the goals of TRE and SSP are very similar. And and I like using Porgis's language of portals. He talks about we have different portals or gateways into connecting to our safety physiology or our or our ventral vagal, our social engagement nervous system. And and um SSP is a listening portal. It it's it works by influencing your middle ear muscles, and that's the gateway. Um neurogenic tremoring, and this is what um uh Dr. Porgis has also shared, it's another portal. It's a neural exercise that helps bring us into contact with the autonomic nervous system. Um touch therapies, craniosacro therapy, body work, that's another portal. And so breath, breath work is another portal. Um but what I like about the combination of TRE and SSP is that they really share the same language by being so rooted in a polyvagal awareness, being rooted in the principles of self-regulation, being rooted in the principles of tracking autonomic state, um, uh that we can see them as just very, very complementary. Um and so I'm so uh happy that you're providing this ongoing container because my expectation is that there's there'll be a big amplification that if we that by come by doing the combined delivery, if you're a TRE person and you're doing SSP, I think the benefits of both are for many people anyway, are going to get amplified. So um that's cool. Wonderful. And is it okay to ask you how you're using it in your practice? I know you use them together as well. Yeah, absolutely. Um for me these days, what I am mostly doing is supporting people in person uh who are, and and usually it's in combination with tremoring, sometimes with other bodywork, but mostly with tremoring. And so for me, what I do is I have people um, you know, I onboard in a similar way, and it's in SSP often isn't the beginning point, but it's um something that once they're familiar with with TRE, we might uh bring in, put on a headset while they're doing TRE. Sometimes that's with touch support, like I'm incorporating body work with that. Other times it's it's it's just sort of independent. And uh my experience so far is that that is like that synergy is really helping. That people are they're noticing even even before they start to tremor and they do kind of a a body scan and they're listening even before they've entered tremoring. People often will report that they can start to notice kind of a shift in a in a down regulation, a softening in the in the in the body, um, which then you know just leads right into a tremoring session that more, again, more of them is available sometimes to the tremoring. So I'm a little newer in this particular way I'm using it right now, um, maybe six months in with several clients who I'm kind of following this along. But so far I'm very pleased with the results and um I want to do in fact I want to do more of it. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I love that. So wonderful. Well, let's put in the in the in the notes down below, we'll put in Jenna, we'll put J Jenna, we'll put your contact info so people can reach out to you directly. We'll put in the um we're gonna we're gonna put a specific website, uh a landing page about this class on the neurogenic integration website so that that information is clearly available there. We'll put that in the notes down below as well. So it'll be easy to connect with Jenna if you are wanting to explore uh this intersection for yourself. So um yeah, just reach out. She's uh she's uh you're busy, but hopefully, uh hopefully you can you're not too busy. You're still you're still available to for more people. That's another beauty of the group is that more of us can get together in the same hour. So thank you. Thank you so much, Alex. And I just want to shout out to Steve as well and the breath work that she's doing there. I think that's another it get it get the membership because there's just so much there available to to experience. It's a really wonderful collective that you put together, and I'm super grateful to both of you for making that happen. Well, we're grateful to you and and everybody as well. All right, well, let's land here. Thank you, Jenna. We'll go back to our Sundays. Thank you. That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic droning. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people interested in this transformative work. And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us. Or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.