E07 - Multimodal Approachers: TRE, Nutrigenomics and Brain Spotting

Host Alex Greene interviews Jo Lothian, a UK-based practitioner who combines neurogenic tremoring (TRE - Tension and Trauma Releasing Exercises), nutrigenomics, and brain spotting in her practice called The Happy Reset. Jo shares her personal history of childhood medical procedures, family dysfunction, and health challenges that led her to explore these therapeutic approaches. She will be presenting at the Masters Events Series trauma conference in Oxford (28th-30th September 2025) alongside speakers including Bessel van der Kolk and Dan Siegel.

Jo explains nutrigenomics as the study of how genes and nutrition interact, describing how genetic testing can reveal variations in stress hormone processing and nervous system function. She discusses how she uses this information to guide nutritional recommendations, then combines it with neurogenic tremoring for nervous system regulation and brain spotting for trauma processing. The conversation covers her methods for integrating these modalities and her applications in areas like trauma-informed fitness training.

Listen to the full episode to learn about Jo's multimodal approach to trauma healing.

Key Highlights:
00:00 Introduction 
02:15 Childhood medical experiences
05:40 Corporate to healing transition
09:30 Multimodal approach development
10:45 Nutrigenomics fundamentals
13:20 Genetic pathway analysis
16:30 Personal genetic discoveries
22:15 Nutritional intervention strategies
25:45 Discovering TRE work
28:20 Common client outcomes
31:15 Brain spotting introduction
34:30 Brain spotting methodology
37:45 Integrating multiple modalities
40:15 Conference presentation plans
43:20 Bridging clinical language
45:30 Future therapeutic applications

Links and Resources: 
The Happy Reset: https://www.thehappyreset.co.uk/ 
Life Code GX: https://www.lifecodegx.com/ 
Masters Events Series: Oxford trauma conference (28th-30th September 2025): https://mastersevents.com/ 
TRE Providers International Forum: https://treglobal.org/ 

Find us Online: 
Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/ 
Instagram: @neurogenicintegration

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green. And I am Sebia from Shields. Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research. Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you. Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how hemogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being. So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. All right, good afternoon, everybody. I am honored to be sitting down this afternoon with Joe Lothian. And Joe is uh TRE practitioner and also a practitioner of um uh nutrigenomics uh and brain spotting. These are modalities we'll be talking about, and she is the owner of a business called The Happy Reset, uh, and she's based outside of London in the UK. And um I recently connected with Jo uh through the TRE Providers International Forum because Joe made the announcement that she was going to be giving a series of talks and presentations at an upcoming trauma summit later this month. And um, what caught my eye is that Jo is going to be sort of speaking about her use of TRE tension and trauma releasing exercises, the neurogenic tremoring we're always talking about on this podcast, in connection with some of her other approaches, like the nutrigenomics, which is a nutritional-based approach, um, as well as brain spotting. And brain spotting is a modality, and I'll let Joe describe it a little bit more, but it's it's a it's a training that I have in common with Joe. So it's a nervous system-based approach to trauma resolution and nervous system management, working with the eyes. And um, it's a bit it's a part of my own sort of uh therapeutic toolkit, and I don't know too many other TRE practitioners who are exploring that intersection. And so uh what I was hoping to go over with Joe today was sort of this concept of how can TRE fit within a multimodal framework where um where other therapeutic lenses and modalities can apply. So, in any case, Joe, really excited to be sitting down with you this afternoon and hearing about your work and what you'll be presenting at the upcoming conference. Thank you. Uh pleasure to be here. I was really excited when you got in touch as well. So thank you. Really excited for today. Perfect. Awesome. Well, I always like to just start start with backstory a little bit, Joe. Maybe you could just share um uh kind of what got you into uh nervous system body-based therapeutic work in the first place, and then we'll kind of we'll we'll we'll we'll follow the path down towards uh when you brought TRE into the into the program. Yeah, I mean it's a bit of a story. So so I guess um so I guess my story really starts in in childhood. Uh I had a lot of hospital visits really under the age of five uh because of I had a uh loads of ear infections. I was given antibiotics that didn't work. So I ended up having my adenoids taken out and having grommets put in several times. And I mean, just thinking of it now, all of that hospital atmosphere still really vivid in my mind. Um it was frightening. I was you know small, I was just under five, really, and having people prodding and poking in your ears and in your head, excuse you know, it's not great. Um, and then when I was eight, I got appendicitis, uh, and I remember being in a lot of pain, not wanting to wake my mum up because she'd just come off night shifts, she was a nurse, and by the afternoon it was just unbearable. Um, and when she realised what was happening, we had to go to the hospital. Um, and I can still picture now our lovely 80s swirly carpet uh as I was walking down the stairs saying to her that I swore I would never go into hospital again until I had kids. So looking back now, to say that at eight years old um must have meant that it must have really impacted me the surgeries prior to that. Um, that whole experience was very stressful, and my appendix burst during surgery, which I didn't realise until I had hypnotherapy in my twenties. So um uh home life, things weren't great either. It was a quite a dysfunctional family, sometimes violent. My mum had extreme OCD, my dad was emotionally absent, so there was quite a lot of volatility. Yeah. Following the appendectomy, I actually developed quite strong OCD myself. Um, everything had to be perfect, and I had to go through extreme rituals every night before I could sleep. So, to coin the phrase, the body was definitely keeping the score, that's for sure. Yeah, sounds like from a young age, you know. Um, and then in my in my teens and early twenties, I went off the rouse a bit, I was constantly trying to block out what I felt in my body um and mind, and sort of in those formative years, never really finding a sense of safety in myself. Uh and then and then in adulthood, the stress showed up in my body, so IBS, health anxiety, and later on in my early 40s, perimenopause hit me with panic attacks. Um, and then in 2019, just before COVID, my mum passed, which took me into a much deeper layer of grief and working through the ancestral trauma, especially hearing about my grandmother's story. And then last year my dad passed, and this brought a whole new load of level of grief, unexpected grief, that and loss over something I never actually never had because of our relationship. So, um, yeah, that's kind of like the the story in terms of the trauma. Right, right. Um, and then running alongside that is my career path. So at 18 I started out in a local gym, studied nutrition and PT um for a few years, but then ended up working in the corporate world for a while, which was high energy and high stress environment. Um but then I met my husband, had my two children, and then whilst being a parent, I set up a health and fitness company with one of my best friends, and we wanted fitness to be more inclusive, uh, more trauma-informed. And we noticed as well so many kids who weren't sporty uh still needed access to fitness in a way that supported them. Uh, we kind of built community events, worked in corporates alongside occupational health, so people who had come back to work post-operative, post-pregnancy, that kind of thing. And we walked, uh, worked alongside schools and with one, obviously one-to-one clients as well. But actually, looking back now, that was also when my health anxiety really started to flare because I put so much pressure on myself to look really fit and well. Um fitness industry, right? Yeah, exactly. Because I felt like people expected that of me, and I started to get injured and burn out, and I developed IBS after a chest infection, taking loads of neurofen on an empty stomach, and I had all these strange symptoms, and it kind of reminded me of when I was younger and reflected on similar feelings in the body. Um, and I couldn't understand why my body felt so stressed, or why I'd crashed for days, like after certain events, or why pain lingered longer than it seemed for other people, or of course, health anxiety makes every symptom feel bigger anyway. Right. Um, and this led me to extend my nutritional knowledge into nutrigenomics, and I guess all of that through my own healing drew me to the trauma work. Um, and and it was that it was the realization was that all of the feelings in the body, the sensations, my mental health, it wasn't just one event, it was the accumulation of so many different experiences and layers across my life that and so that insight made me guided me to kind of retrain into the body-based therapies, TRE and brain spotting, and all of the pieces of the puzzle kind of clicked together and helped me to understand myself better, and obviously than my clients. So I kind of you know, this is now really what the happy reset is about and its foundations, which I launched this year. Um, it's a combination of both my personal journey and professional path, and just looking how um people's different stories and pain points, specifically pain points that people come into clinic with can be supported through body, mind, nutrition, and genetics together. So yeah, thanks for yeah, thanks for sharing your you know that kind of both the personal and the professional side of it. You I think most most all of us in this work tend to have some mixture of those those kinds of questions and stories that that tend to lead us down these paths. Um I wonder if um uh Joe, could you share what you consider to be either the strong points or what's just generally really cool about each of these three methods? So there's the neutrogenomics, there's the brain spotting, there's the TRE, whatever order you want to, but let's let's go through each of the three and what it is that um resonated enough with you about it that that became a primary um uh tool that you work with in your approach. Okay, so I'll start with the neutrogenomics because I think that's kind of where it first started. Okay. Neutrogenomics was it was definitely where it started. It kind of gave me the first real insights into why my body and my mind responded the way that it did. So things like stress, hormones, even inflammation. It explained patterns that I guess I hadn't really been able to make sense of before. Um, and it showed me that it wasn't just my mindset or my lifestyle because I was trying to be really, really healthy. I was eating well most of the time, and I was, you know, was fit. So it kind of just didn't make it make sense a lot of the time, but um it showed me that my body is wired to process things in a different way from other people. Um, so I mean, would you like me to explain a little bit about what absolutely, yeah, what it is, yeah, absolutely what it is, and and yeah, how you came to it and all of that, yeah. Okay, so I mean, in simple terms, nutrigenomics is the study of how your genes and nutrition interact. So our DNA is like an instruction manual, and sometimes there are little variations in the coding in those instructions called SNPs, SNP S, uh single nucleotide polymorphism. So they don't mean something's broken, it just means that one process might run faster or slower than average. Um, and when on the reports, it's like a traffic light system. So if a certain uh gene SNP is red, it means that it's potentially 70% less effective, yellow is up to 40% effective, and green, you know, you're okay, you don't really need to pay much attention to it. Um, and then some genes are upregulated and downregulated, so things might like hormones might move faster or slower through the pathway. Um, but it's take got to be taken in the bigger context of a number of reports and a number of different pathways in the body to how your body's functioning. Uh, but it it what it means is that you you you find out how you can support your body with the right foods, the right nutrients, and lifestyle changes as well. Um, and there are 11 different reports from I mean, I generally tend to in my practice do a nutrient core report, which is really important in terms of B vitamins, vitamin D, the main vitamins. Um, and then I usually support that with nervous a nervous system report, with obviously being trauma-based. It's really, really fascinating to see how people are uh metabolising their hormones. And hormones report have been really, really useful for uh menopausal, perimenopausal women. Um, and then there's loads of other reports like detoxification, metabolism, uh thyroid, methylate histamine, loads of different reports basically. And there's even an athlete report which bunches into the con bunches together in the context of genes that help you to help to fuel you, to see what your sleep is like, what motivates you. So really good for performance, um, people that feel blocked creatively or from performance perspective. So um it's really powerful, really powerful in the context of trauma because it explains why two people, even within the same families, even twins, can go through the same experience but respond so differently. And so your genes influence how you clear stress emotion, uh stress hormones, how sensitive you are to say something like oestrogen, or even how your body stores trauma and memories. Um and then when you then combine that knowledge with nervous system work and somatic release, it becomes really, really personalized. Interesting. Yeah, this is it's completely a new, you know, this lens on the on trauma and stress processing is totally new for me. So it's it's very interesting to hear about it. What's who who what what's the organization that you work with that did this develop out of a functional medicine framework, or what what's kind of the what's the origin story of neutrogenomics as a system? So the company who I work with is a company called Life Code GX, who are a British company. Um, the lady that runs the Emmetsic, she's incredible, her knowledge is just amazing. So um she developed these reports um for people, nutritionists um and everyone in that field, really, to kind of they they put together a number of these reports and measured all these different SNPs in the genes. Um, and it's just it's really helped nutritionists to provide much more detailed information because it's not like if you have a blood test or a urine test, for example, you're taking a snapshot of time in that moment. Whereas these are DNA swabs, and so that's it. You don't have to do it again. It is you do the test once and you can carry that through from what say birth all the way through to older uh life, so it can help you throughout your entire life to understand how to support yourself better. Um, yeah, I mean it's it's incredible. There are some things that are very specific to um nervous system health, um, which I can talk about if you'd like me to, but it's um yeah, it's fascinating. Well, I I I'm curious if you're willing to share anything personally, of course, don't if you don't want to, but I'm curious if you learned anything about your own genetics through the neutrogenomics that that gave you any insights about your own processing of stress, or did what did you learn personally if you're willing to share? Yeah, okay. So um I won't, yeah, that there's so many, but I think if I were to think about probably the three three big ones, um there's one called Compt, so C O M T. It's really common in the genetic world. People talk about it a lot in the neutrogenomics, and it's a gene that helps you break down stress chemicals like adrenaline and dopamine. If it works more slowly, you might hold on to stress longer, uh, feel wired or find it hard to switch off. But if it works too fast, you might burn through these chemicals really quickly and feel flat or low. And there's everything in between, and there's other things on the pathway that might be going on. So for me, understanding how my comp gene worked explained a lot about my tendency towards perfectionism and anxiety, for example. Um, so that was one. The other one is called FKBP5, and this is a stress resilience gene, um, and it affects how strongly traumatic memories get stored and how easily your body comes back to baseline after stress. Um, and if you carry variations here, your nervous system can stay on high alert for lot for longer. So you know some people just do that, don't they? They get stressed and then they're there, just stressed. Whereas you see, some people get have a stressful situation and they're just oh yeah, you know, that's whatever, it's fine. And you know, when you're not like that, it's it's really annoying, isn't it, that someone's like that. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, so I mean that was a big one for me because it showed why I felt stuck in old patterns, even though I thought I'd moved on mentally. Um, and then another big one for me, kind of going into perimenopause, was it's called the ESR1. There's there's two SNPs on that, but there's the ESOR1, which is an estrogen receptor gene. So anything that's got an R in it is a receptor gene. Okay, and that influences how sensitive your body is to each estrogen. So that's huge, huge for women, right? Especially in perimenopause and menopause. Sure, sure, sure. Um, some of us feel every hormone change really intensely mood swings, anxiety, hot flashes, while others annoyingly settle through. So again, you know, why does this happen? And it's you know, not I mean it isn't just your genes, and just because you have SNP on certain genes, I have to caveat this, it doesn't mean you're gonna get certain diseases, it doesn't mean this is definitely gonna happen. But when you look at it when you're feeling a certain way, and people come to me and present with certain symptoms, and we work on and you provide them with the neutronic information, it gives them that autonomy to understand why their body is behaving the way it is. So then there's that, and then you help them to regulate their nervous system through the TRE and then work through old traumas with the brain spotting. It's just uh totally well, yeah, yeah. No, it's really, really, really fascinating. So staying on the genetics for a moment, you know, there's a big you know, in the in the trauma therapy and healing world, you know, there's increasing awareness. I mean, um, you know, the concept of intergener generational trauma, ancestral healing, I mean, that's been around forever, you know, through through many, many healing systems. But more recently, there's um looking at it from the lens of epigenetics and the epigenetic studies that indicate that if one generation has uh certain you know acute um stress responses due to trauma, then for several generations there'll be an increased um act gene activity of stress-related. Um and I'm curious if that epigenetic side of things, where things have been influenced by the previous um generations, does that show up at all in the nutrigenomics testing or framework, or not as specifically? No, not as specifically, because I mean it's showing that you have one gene from your parent and one gene, but one gene, sorry, from your mother and one gene for your father, but you don't know who's who, who's it who's it's come from. Um I would say uh in terms of kind of looking at things from an ancestral perspective, I would say I have more connection with that from a the brain spotting, actually. There seems to be much deeper connection in working with that ancestral trauma on the brain spotting side. Um I mean it's interesting. I do reports for mums and children, and it can be quite funny because sometimes in in that moment of telling the the kids, oh, that's oh look, your mum's got the same, and they sit and go, Oh, it's your fault. That's why I'm like that. And it's funny, but it's also you know, it's that kind of connection, it all gives them that connection as well of like, oh well, my mum's like that too. I didn't realize my mum was like that as well. And so it's actually quite nice as well for the kids to kind of feel like you know they have that connection in that way. Sure, super interesting. Well, okay, so once somebody has their neutrogenomic, you know, they've done some of the tests, maybe the um maybe the stress related, you know, whatever ones, you know, the the core and the and and this and that. And now they've gotten some sort of you know, now the the traffic light system lets them know which of their genes have certain tendencies, and therefore, and so and so then what um what then does That influence? Does it influence what what sort of types of foods they might eat more or less of? Does it influence what kinds of vitamins they might do more or less of? Like what are the outcomes from a nutritional perspective once that information is there? So there are some really key things that you can see in terms of nervous system health. So another really common SNP is called MTHFR, which is all to do with B vitamins. And we know that B vitamins are really important for helping with nervous system health. It's a really common SNP actually, and sometimes is connected as well to another SNP called Foot 2 F-U-T-2. I don't want to keep bombarding you with SNP. There's so many, I'm impressed with how many there are. It's very complex. B vitamins are crucial for nervous system health. There's a there's the VDR, which is the vitamin D receptor, which then it's you know, there are two SNPs there to do with vitamin D. Vitamin D is hugely important for all everything within the body, really. There's a metals and minerals report which shows whether you're more deficient in magnesium. Again, massive, helps with sleep, helps with muscle relaxation. And then there are other pathways, um, so the GABA pathway, where if that kind of talk about it as if it's a um a drain pipe, and if that pathway gets blocked at the bottom, you might might not be getting rid of cortisol very well, or your GABA receptors might not be um catching the GABA. So you can have things like lemon balm or rosemary that can help calm you, have that before you go to bed at night, along with your magnesium. So there are sometimes these very small tweaks that can happen, and sometimes people do these small tweaks, and it literally transforms their life within a few weeks, and they feel better, and then they feel more ready to do the deeper work in terms of the trauma because their nervous systems are really, you know, and they're just feeling so intense, stabilized. Yeah, it helps to stabilize things, it's not immediate, right? Um, you know, a lot of these things aren't, are they? Everything takes time, healing takes time. But um, you know, it's incredible what can happen, and and I will always say as well, food first before you start throwing a load of supplements in your mouth as well. Food first. So vitamin B is loads and loads of leafy green vegetables, you know. Vitamin D, obviously, get outside. It's it's the really obvious ones, isn't it? Get outside, get some sunlight, have some mushrooms, put the mushrooms on your windowsill before you eat them so they get a bit more vitamin D. It's there are just very there are sometimes some very small tweaks that can help. Um obviously there's sometimes there's more complex things if people have got chronic pain or um there are illnesses, then there's a lot to take into consideration. You have to obviously work alongside a medical professional to ensure that you know they're taking or not taking certain things. So right. Oh wow, super interesting. Okay, so then let's let's go to TRE next, if that's okay. So, so like um so how did you find it? What do you love about it? How do you use it within the within the over what's it really good for with your clients? So, I mean, I love all of the modalities. I know, I know. If you asked me, I had to pick one. I I just couldn't, you don't have to pick one, use them all, yeah. Um but TR, do you know what? I found TRE. I've been looking for something that was body-based for a very long time, and I saw um it's funny, I saw Gwyneth Paltrow's goop. Do you remember? Do you remember that? I do. And I think that was spinal genetics, uh spinal, some kind of spinal flow. Oh, yeah, the um what is that called? Yeah, um net like network chiropractic or yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I was like, oh, I've been looking for something to do with the movement and the body. And I knew about somatics um loosely, but I was really interested. I was like, I need to find something like that anyway. And then I and I just came across uh uh Deborah Brown in the UK who does the training down in Brighton. Uh she's amazing, she's so lovely, uh, amazing mentor. And um, I did the training with her, and I just I mean, it just blew me away right from the off. And for from a personal perspective, I had been having hot flushes for the first time, and after one of the training programs, they disappeared. Now, you know, that's nervous system health right there. That's yeah, that's the nervous system re-regulating and helping me to for myself. Um, with clients, what I tend to do is um it really depends what people come for. So it's that's the thing with me. It depends whether people come with a nutritional thing first, and then we kind of go down the route. It goes nutrigenomics with TRE, um, and then probably brain spotting, or people come to me for TRE and brain spotting, and then we talk around the nutritional lens. So it really depends, everyone's different. Um, but uh yeah, with TRE, it's just about teaching people so that they can go and do it themselves at home. Um, and that's what I want people to do ultimately. It's giving them those tools so that they can work themselves. Yep. Yeah, wonderful. What what have been what can you think of like in your mind, what are some of the common outcomes, you know, when somebody's when they when they start Tier E, whether it was their first thing or their second thing or their third thing, but now they learn it with you, they get safe with it, they start doing it a bit on their own. Like, do you find that there's some common tendencies that you hear or or things that people you know, your example was the a re-regulation that changed your hop flashes. What else do you kind of hear from your clients? Well, I mean, it depends what people come in with. I find something that's quite common actually is a digestive feeling. Changes, uh-huh. Yeah, a lot of people will come initially on from a nutritional side from a digestive perspective, and it helps to calm, not it doesn't completely eradicate things, but it seems to just calm that tension in the digestion and the stomach area, um you know, through the I hear that I hear that a lot as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, I work with people as well from a fitness perspective. I know um David Biselli's recently been brought out that book, hasn't he? Or I think it's a yeah, uh yeah, but around fitness, but I've been using it for myself and with clients post-operative, teaching them how to do the TRE, and then okay, you train in a specific way. I've developed a trauma-informed, my own protocol, fitness protocol, where you train in a certain way, which is slowly in reps or sets of three, paying attention to your body in between each set of three repetitions. And if you've loaded heavy, if you put heavy weight on, you do a little mini shake in between your exercises. Absolutely. Yeah. Um so that has really helped people who are post-operative or people who have just been scared to go to the gym or um just have very dysregulated nervous systems who want to get back into fitness. Um it's helped with that because I I tend to say to people who have been very dysregulated and they've been really into training, but they're scared that going into training is gonna make them feel you know not so good again. Don't do cardio from the off, just don't do any cardio at all, just go gently in with like a Pilates type work and then slowly doing weight training building up in that way. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so so going back to your question, I mean it just depends on the person, but I think yeah, the digestion is really interesting. The fitness training around uh injuries has been really um really powerful. Yeah, um, and I think I think a lot of it is as well, just just the anxiety, it helps people's anxiety levels to come down significantly too. Yeah, very cool. Um, all right. Well then let's go into brain spotting, how you found that, what you think is so cool about it, and and then how yeah, what do you use that for? So tell us tell us about that. And then just let's I mean, most of our listeners they know what TRE is because it's a TRE focused podcast, but they they they the brain spotting will be new. So let's sort of let's let's explain it a little bit also. Okay, so I found brain spotting because actually Deborah, the Debbie, the TRE lady said to me, Would you like to do some brains but give it a go? And I said, Oh yeah, go on then. I'll try anything. Um and um and we did a session, and I had been really, really stressed because I'd been looking after my father. He was he was really I was caring for him, I was his main carer at the time, and we did a session, and the first uh I started gazing, we did went through the process of the um finding the spot, and after about literally about 10 minutes, I felt like I had gone down into a lift, it was that strong. The emotion now I know I'm very in touch with my body and you know, senses and sensations, but for me to feel like I literally had gone from the 50th floor to the first floor was a pretty incredible feeling, and for me to just release a whole load of um emotions attached to um what I had brought to the session was I just was like blown away. So um she said to me, Oh well, Mark's gonna be doing some training, Mark Grixdy, who is the UK brain spotting uh trainer. So I was like, Yeah, fine me up 100%. Yeah um so yeah, it I just think it's it's just works really well with with TRE. So yeah, so with the with the brain spotting, it is about um I I explain it to clients in that um because I think the funny thing is when you first start to explain it to clients and they see you waving around this stick, they just think, Well, I'm just gonna stare at a stick. Right. Right, right. Well you gotta at least you gotta at least put a fuzz like a funny little a fuzzy little tip on the end or something to make it more fun. Listen, I say I say to them, yes, but it's a magic stick, so you know. Um, so yeah, so I explain it that um when we experienced specific events uh or specific traumas, we would have potentially been looking in a certain direction or directions at that time, and brain spotting helps you to kind of uh go into those deeper layers in the brain to help you filter through and work through the emotions and the somatic uh experiencing of that event as well. So it's not just the brain, even though you know, again explaining it like your brain is a filing cabinet, we have these thousands and thousands of thoughts every single day. Time is that about how many days you live lived for how many years, and you know, how many thoughts then are there in your brain, and how many filing cabinets do we need, and how many of those, you know, all the doors that open and close throughout the brain spotting, and you know, I for me the two together are an is just a really good process because once I've helped people get to grips with a TRE, we then move to the brain spotting, and then if people feel safe enough to do so, it's a case of okay, if your body starts to shake while we're doing the brain spotting, just go ahead, let your body do what it needs to do. Uh, some of my clients will do the brain spotting, and then that's how I'm gonna go do a little shake now. Yeah, great. Yeah, so um or if people come to me specifically for brain spotting, we'll do the brain spotting, and then later down the line I'll talk to them about doing some TRE and helping them to kind of discharge the energy from the brain spotting session later. So yeah, no, and then just maybe just briefly that like for again anyone listening, just a little bit more about brain spotting, like in a way it evolved from EMDR. So EMDR is sort of you know well known, and there's different ways of applying EMDR with bilateral stimulation, um, but one of the ways is through sort of uh um moving your eyes back and forth. But um David Grand, uh who developed brain spotting, was originally an EMDR guy, but then what he developed sort of discovered was that being a little bit less structured and more fluid, um, with with instead of just rhythmically bilaterally stimulating with the eye movements, that in fact sometimes um staying in certain locations of pause, I mean, where the eye gaze is focused, and that's the the stick that um Joe is referencing, is it's a it's a place where where you kind of in a sense map the visual field and then you find locations where there's an indication of a physiological activation. That could mean the eye quivers, it could mean the person senses a little bit more somatic activation or autonomic energy. And just as you explained, Joe, this idea that where we look is re- is is connected to at our subcortical levels the autonomic state that may have been there with stressors, traumas, events, and things like that. And so then if the if we can help guide somebody back into the particular eye positions while attending to the body experience, this is the sort of kind of processing and things that uh Joe is describing so beautifully. So just sort of connecting it a little bit into the EMDR framework for a moment there. But Joe, could you talk just a little bit about like so so um like again when you when you pair that that makes a lot of sense to me that that if somebody has TRE as a they know it already, then in brain spotting, when there's more charge, or there may it might make it more the person might in a sense be better at discharging through tremoring because it's become familiar to them, or they have a way to discharge sort of like after a session, you know. And I think you told me when we connected the other day, you might just say, even if you didn't do the TRE together in the session, you might say, okay, go do some TRE, do some integration. Is that like is that kind of part of the way that you join these? Yes, yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh again, it always depends on the client, yeah. They're coming for, and you know, how I feel their nervous, how dysregulated or their nervous system feels. Um, I do, I am very intuitive, I work very intuitively. So um, I mean, ultimately it is down to the client, and I give them obviously give them the choice, but I will I you know, if I feel, oh, you know, brain spotting, I think it's gonna let's start with that today, or no, actually, let's go for the TRE today. But you know, as you know, some clients will just come in straight away and say, I just want to do TRE today, or I just want to do brain spotting. But you will always get those people that go, What do you think? So, you know, I I try and work quite intuitively, but I mean, yeah, if and also in terms of doing TRE lying down, um, which is most people, then uh it's just being with the client. Um, if I'm with the client in person, then it's just sitting by them and I have uh the pointer nearby, so that if it does feel that's the right thing to do, then I will do that. And also um sometimes when people in the TRE when sometimes they do kind of get to that point where they just become feel a little bit, you know, uncomfortable, then just doing some resource spotting at the end to help them integrate. Uh, so it's just yeah, bring them back to that nice resource, resourcing level. Nice, yeah, yeah. Oh, super cool. Um, Joe, could you so you're gonna you're presenting in a few weeks at this conference? Could you tell us a little bit? I forgot the name of it, so maybe you tell us what the conference is and then a little bit how you're gonna because my understanding was you're presenting a few different days, sort of tuning into different topics. Maybe just share a little bit about uh what you have planned for that conference. Yeah, so super excited to do this. This is the Master Events series uh in Oxford at the end of September. It's over three days, and uh uh absolutely blessed to be alongside Bessel Vanderkock, Dan Siegel, Richard Schwartz, uh Tara Swart. I mean, all these big names in trauma. It's um I think it's Europe's biggest trauma conference. Um what's the title of it again? The master series. I see. Okay, yeah. Uh and uh so I'm gonna be presenting over three days. I'll be doing the Sunday and Tuesday in person, the Monday online. I believe it's the first time they've they've uh they're doing immersive sessions online. Usually it's just in the past it's been the sessions have been running actually in Oxford, but they've just had like a live link so people can uh come in and just watch the presentation. So this is the first time they've actually had had someone doing immersive sessions. Um and so three a day and three topics. So one being anxiety and stress, another peri and menopause, perimenopause and menopause, and the third one is ancestral trauma. So um I'll be presenting some information around nutrition and nutrigenomics with regards to the nervous system, then taking people into uh some grounding and then doing the TRE exercises, doing a shake, and then using doing some group brain spotting at the end, uh some kind of like resource spotting around that specific topic. Um so yeah, I only have 90 minutes in each session, so I'm gonna have to um polish, polish it up, polish it up, I think. That's it for for those of us who are not uh who won't be able to make it to Oxford Live, what what's the online access? Is that is that um people can be an observer or you know listeners, could listeners tune in or even watch afterwards, for example? To my sessions or the whole conference? Both, but I I'm thinking more your own sessions. Oh, okay, yeah. So for the for for the whole conference, uh yeah, people are coming in live and watching the different presentations and the different speakers, but for my sessions, people will have to book on um because I've said that I can only have a certain amount of people, which I want to from a safety perspective, I only want to have a certain a limit to each uh session. I mean I have a colleague with me, but um yeah, uh yeah, people will have had to have booked on to actually have the sessions, and that will be they won't be able to, you know, it's not a watch, it's an actual participation. It's participation. Right, right. It's experiential. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so super excited. It's gonna be really, really interesting, really looking forward to it. Very, very cool. Well, good. Well, what um yeah, what uh what else would you want to sort of share by way of closing um uh for anybody listening, uh just yeah, about your work and and yeah, anything else yeah, you'd like to share? Um I guess um it's it's I'd I'd love it if more people were to kind of pull the different modalities together. I know doing nutrition is difficult because you have to study that you know, you have to have that background to study nutrition to do the nutrigenomics, but um it's it would be really interesting if people were to consider that along with um some of the trauma-informed modalities. Um I think TRE and brain spotting go really well together, so I think that people should definitely combine those modalities too. Um yeah, and I mean the happy reset, as I said, that I launched this year is trying to speak to people through um a lens that general public will understand, be able to understand things because I think what we tend to do in our space is we tend to talk quite clinical because we are all practitioners and we we we talk the way we do because of you know our training and education, but it's trying to I'm trying to bridge that gap between um that and general public and and then trying to inform people more about the TRE and the brain spotting and the nutrition, and that you should look everything your mind, your body, and the food that you put in your body and the nutrients that your body needs to really help yourself um deal with any challenges that come up in life. Very cool. Well, Joe, we will we'll put all the information, uh, the happy reset and uh the conference uh website, all of that we'll include in our in our notes down below so people can find you and find uh the conference. And um, I don't know if this episode will be out in time for, but it'll be it'll be close. It'll be close. If not, at a minimum it'll be on people's radar for for next year. Um but anyway, no, Joe, I really appreciate you taking time. I'm wishing you well uh at the conference itself in a few weeks. I think that's gonna be that's gonna be a big impact. I'm always so excited. I was just actually the other day I was speaking with uh Lisa Kimball, uh, she's in South Africa. She she presented on TRE at the Fascial Congress in the United States. And so um in a few months ago, I presented on TRE for body workers at a craniosacral conference in Europe. And so to me, I think the um those of us who are uh taking the time to to bring to usefully bring uh the information about tremoring into these um wider contexts, I think it's really useful for us expanding the the ways that we interact with the therapeutic world. Definitely. I mean, I think there are so many untapped um areas where I think TRE will work, like just so doing it with fitness, if more fitness trainers were to become trauma-informed. Uh my colleague who I'm doing the conference with, she's a Pilates instructor, she's going to be using it. Um, it's it's it's huge. I mean, you know, I I just I think now this is the the momentum starting to build because because of the you know the awareness around trauma now. Um so yeah, fingers crossed, um hopefully I'll be able to do all three modalities justice at the conference and get more people to train in in them. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Awesome. Well, maybe I'll look forward to I'll I'm gonna send you a message after the in October. I'm gonna ask how things went so I can uh hear hear how things things uh all the the impact that you made. But anyway, uh Joe, thank you so much. Appreciate taking time today. Thank you so much for inviting me on. Great. Take care. That's it for today's episode. 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