E011 - Eunju Choi on Body Wisdom and Building TRE Korea

In this conversation, host Alex Greene sits down with Eunju Choi, founder of TRE Korea and certification trainer, to explore her remarkable journey from professional photographer to bringing trauma release work to South Korea. Eunju shares the powerful story of her first TRE session in 2014, where vivid images of Korean students, mothers, and fathers appeared in her mind, planting the seeds for what would become her life's mission. Despite having no formal credentials in the field and initial doubts about who would take trauma work from a photographer, Eunju followed her calling and watched as opportunities unfolded in unexpected ways.

Alex and Eunju discuss the cultural challenges and triumphs of introducing somatic work in Korea, where academic credentials and traditional markers of success hold significant weight. Eunju shares inspiring stories of her work with diverse populations including North Korean refugees, social workers, therapists working with at-risk youth, religious communities, and even military hospital staff. The conversation touches on the importance of personal practice, the patience required to create lasting change, and the universal need for body-based healing across cultures.

🎧 Listen to the full episode to hear Eunju's complete story and gain insights into bringing trauma-informed practices to new communities!

Key Highlights & Timestamps
00:00 - Episode introduction
02:02 - Eunju's background journey
02:42 - Discovering TRE modality
05:01 - Vision for Korea
06:22 - Three powerful images
07:40 - Becoming a provider
08:57 - Moving to America
10:10 - Returning to Korea
16:45 - Building TRE Korea
28:30 - North Korean refugees
35:20 - Working with communities
43:00 - Religious organizations worldwide
46:54 - Youth and military
50:20 - Closing wisdom


Resources & Links Mentioned
Dr. David Berceli: https://treglobal.org/about-dr-david-berceli/ 
TRE Korea organization: https://trekorea.com/ 
Soma Therapy US: http://somatherapy.us/ 

Find us Online:
Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/
Instagram: @neurogenicintegration

Transcript

0:00

To the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green. And I am Sevia Sung Shields. Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research. Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you. Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being. So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. All right, well, good morning, everybody. I'm Alex Green, and I'm excited to be sitting down in conversation with my friend and colleague Unju Choi. And uh Unju is based in Buford, Buford, Georgia, who is a TRE um uh provider since 2015, uh, right around the same time that I was getting into the TRE work, and uh has been a trainer uh since 2022, a certification trainer for TRE, and she's the founder of TRE Korea, which is the organization uh bringing uh TRE education and programming um to Korea. And uh Unjun and I knew each other back in those early days uh when she had trained uh because she was based in Chicago at that time, I was based in Madison, Wisconsin, so we had some good overlap during that time period. We've been together in Japan at a TRE conference in uh in Koyes on Japan, um, and have uh been maintained a good uh collegial uh connection and friendship over the years. And um what I hoped to do today with interviewing Yunju is to hear a bit about her personal journey, um both in terms of finding and uh becoming uh captivated by TRE as uh as a methodology, and then the uh to me, what's been a very impressive professional journey of um bringing the training to uh the community in in South Korea, and um and some other things as well, other parts of Unju's ongoing professional journey that uh that uh are interesting. So in any case, Unju, really pleased to sit down and have this chance for a chat. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for the invite, LS. It's my pleasure and honor to be with you. And you know, as you said, we go back like what 10 years now, and we have known each other, you know, and kind of seeing each other's uh development in this world. And I am very pleased that you know where you are and where I am, and we're able to just converse, you know, how our journey has been today. Very much so, very much so. Well, let's um maybe we could begin with just you know, what was your how did you know about TRE? Um how what yeah, what go take us back to you know 2014-15? Like how how did you The very beginning, huh? Very beginning, yeah, the very beginning, exactly. Well, I was getting some bodywork. I had a nagging, like a small pain on my left shoulder. And I thought I at the time actually I was a professional photographer, so I thought it was the heavy equipment that I was carrying around, but I realized that sometimes I'm working a lot and it doesn't hurt, and sometimes I'm not working, and then it's like kind of like this pinning kind of pain. And a friend of mine introduced me to a type of a bodywork, and I thought that was kind of interesting, that made sense. So I went to get the bod. And at the end of the body work, actually a few months later, something started to happen in my life that was kind of very unexpected and unpleasant, and I was really struggling. So I remember how I felt during I was getting the body work. I was like a total zen. I mean, I was floating and I was very like peaceful, grounded, and so there was like nothing that worried me during while I was getting the body work. So I called him back and said, you know, hey, uh Everett, this is what's going on in my life, and it's really uncomfortable for me, but I remember how I felt while I was getting your body work. So why don't you, you know, just take me on and you know start another round of a body work. And he introduced me to TRE then. He says, you know, Unju, I recently came across this modality. I think it will be helpful for you. Why don't you give it a try? You may not even need my body work once you actually try this modality. So I says, like, okay. And in that first session, something just like kind of arose in me. It was specifically uh emotions start to come up, and Everett was having a really hard time, you know, for me to connect with the emotion during those 10 sessions of a body work that I was getting. So I was very surprised that this hands-off modality, you know, just lying down doing nothing, and then the body's gently tremoring, and then emotion comes up. I was like, I literally just like holy shit, this is powerful. That was my first thing that came up in my mind. And shortly after, there's three images that kind of arose and then just passed by. And that was the image of a Korea. So the first image was the uh high school seniors studying for a college exam. I mean, like I used to be in school for like 12 hours studying, and then I would go home, and then there is a, you know, a tutor comes to home at like 11:30, and then, you know, we would sleep for five hours and then go back to school. So the image of the student just sitting in class, you know, trying to get a good grade in the college entrance exam. And then the second image was that mothers who are trying to support them, you know, it's like they're all in. I mean, you probably know a little bit about Asian culture. They're all in. The kid's success in school is the life goal, and getting into a good school is like that is the life goal. So everything, everything. Yeah. So I just the image of the mother struggling, you know, putting all in to support this kid. And then the third image was the um dark alley of fathers going home late at night. And I specifically saw the image of uh kind of like a man, like the um rare view. So the the uh shoulders were stooped, there's nobody in the alley, very dark. And I realized at the moment the mothers have kind of emotional bonding with the kids, they have a lot more interaction. The fathers are the ones who was actually supporting financially, make all things to happen, but they were emotionally disconnected and they were very lonely. So that three image just went through my mind very quickly. This is during this is during your first session or soon thereafter? No, during during Trevoring. Okay, okay, okay. So the follow-up thought was like wow, this this work really neat in Korea. But as I said, I was a professional photographer, and I got like, who would want to take a trauma-releasing exercise from a photographer? I mean, Korea is kind of a society where uh, you know, good school graduation diploma is important, your degree is important. Yeah, having a good look and having a lot of money is important. Yeah. And at the time I went like, well, I don't have any of those three. You know, I don't have a PhD, I don't have the look. Um, nonetheless, you know, I signed up for the training just because I was interested. And there was a Dr. Berselli coming to medicine, which was drivable distance for me, right? In like two to three months, and then the certification program was not that rigorous. I was like, I can do this. So I signed up. I became a provider with absolutely no kind of goal or agenda. I just did it because I could do it, right? But the image of the Korea, it kind of you know floated in my mind, and I think it was about maybe two or three years later, things start to happen that was unexpected, literally a red carpet just unrolled in front of me. At the beginning, it was just like, I'll just take a little break from my work. I had a full-time work as a photographer, and you know, I like to travel, so why don't I just take a couple of months and go to Korea, just talk to people? Anyone who's interested, you know, well, I will teach them TRE and maybe they will like it and it will spread. It was really uh it was in in retrospect, it was really naive, but it was a good start. Well, um, can I pause you for a second just for kind of backstory? So when, when, at what age did you come move from Korea to the United States? Oh, I was almost 20. I was just a few months shy of becoming 20. Okay. Um, and so you had just kind of come out of that very intense period of of um of you know that intense pressure, school pressure, academic pressure. Um, and then but when you came to the United States. Well, what was the story? Did you come for work or what was what was the reason you you moved? No, it was a family immigration. My mom's family had been in the US for decades before. We are the last family to join them. So um it wasn't much difficult for us because all my families already had been established there. They, you know, took us around, they showed me around, and they, you know, told us like, oh, this is how you get used to it. So yeah. And you know, when I actually um met TRE, I was what 2014? So I was like I was well in the US. I I came in in 91, so I've been here for a long time. Right. Yeah. So the image of the Korea, you know, just kind of floating in my mind, it was uh quite a surprise because I I was married, all my family, my direct family is in US. Did you before you started before you went back on that trip where you began to just teach Tier E, did you regular like in since you moved in 1991, like have you regularly gone back to Korea all that time, or had there been a big time period where you were not not there? No, I mean since 91, probably up to 95, I went back and forth because my father was still in Korea. But then my father finally moved to US, and then there was no reason for me to go back. And I got married here, and I had no uh reason to go back. So I had not gone back for decade. I see. Okay. Yeah. So where were we at? Um Well, so so you went there and you thought, I'll just teach it to people, maybe, and so yeah, so how did that go? Um, and I met somebody who was very active in blogging, and she said, Well, I can I think I can organize a small workshop for you. So that sounds great. So that was my first workshop the following January. I was in Nepal with uh uh Joan and Sai teaching TRE to Nepalese and then some professionals and social workers in Nepal. Um so 2016, that's when I went to Korea for the first time. And then 2017, January and February, parts of February, I was in Nepal teaching TRE. So on the way back to US, actually, I stopped over in Korea, and that's when the first workshop in Korea was organized. So I taught a class there, uh, it was a full-day workshop. Um participants were very happy, and ever since then, actually, I've been going back and forth. Uh currently I spend about half a year in Korea and half a year here, um, but make like two to three months here, and then I go to Korea for two to three months. So this year, uh earlier this year, I started the ninth cohort of the trainees. Yeah. And I have a tenth group uh waiting to go within uh few weeks now. Wonderful. Do you know uh uh do you know how many how many people you've certified in Korea? Like how many, yeah. Well, I became a trainer when was it? Uh 2022. So bec before I became a trainer, I invited uh trainers, certification trainers from overseas and I worked with them. So I would organize and I would translate the trainees' entire process because the trainers were not Korean and they spoke English. So that was my kind of entry into uh more um you know the the deeper experiences of how to guide people in the process. But then once I became a trainer, now that's another whole new story, right? Just sitting back and translating, uh, that was just really good. Yeah. But then um so my the the group that I studied is uh pretty recent, uh 2022 was the first group, and then every year that I have had a group, and some groups are very small, from six to twelve. Yeah, and then this upcoming group is uh probably the biggest so far. Okay. Yeah, very cool. And so when when did you formally, you know, so TR TRE Korea is a sort of a formal organization, when did when did uh when did you found that? It was 2017. So 2016, October was when I went there first, right? And then I started to translate Dr. Berselli's book in that same year, December, and it was published in 2017, June. So right around that time that I established the you know a TLA TRE Korea with the formal introduction of the book. Got it. Wonderful. Well, okay, so rewinding the tape just a little bit. So like come, you know, because I I never heard this story that in your I mean I knew that you um that Everett uh introduced you to TRE and obviously it made it, it was made, but I didn't I'd never had heard the story that you this whole this sort of these three images that had come up during that first TRE session. So that's a that's a powerful story. But I'm but I'm curious about just your early days in general. So you had a big experience, obviously, that opened up a lot for you. What what about like the next few months or the first year or two when when TRE was a new practice for you? What what what do you remember about what was the meaning? Yeah, what was the impact of TRE as a practice for you in those early stages? It was really powerful. I mean, I uh was I was practicing yoga for years and I was never flexible. Uh since my childhood, you know, I was not flexible. Well, actually, my mother was a yoga teacher way back in the 1970s. So she used to drag me to yoga classes at 6 a.m. before I go to school. So despite the practices, and then in my middle age, you know, I took up the practice on my own and I liked it a lot, but still I would not be flexible. But a couple of sessions of a TRE would make me much more flexible than like seven years of a yoga. And I said, like, whoa! I mean, seriously. And I went like wow. So it needs to loosen up and open up from inside, and that's what the TRE has done for me. So when I don't feel good, I would tremor and it will powerfully open up, literally, from like being stooped, and you know, I can't get my head up. I I shake for like 10-15 minutes, I'm powerfully open and like you know, calm. So it was really, really cool experience at the beginning of it. Yeah. Like have there been chapters in your not your teaching journey, but you know, yeah, on the personal side, your own nervous system, your own. Like what have there been stages of, or is it sort of like it immediately had an effect that in some ways it just it's it's always similarly that same opening effect? No way. No way. So actually, my personal practice of a TRE, personal experience of a TRE, and my teaching journey, I I think there are some similarities, which was a red carpet, you know, everything was so easy at the beginning. And then at some point they start to actually um my body was actually start to kind of like closing in. And I didn't know why. But because of my earlier experiences, there is no doubt in my mind that TRE is if you know very powerful and effective. And I didn't understand why my body, despite you know, tremoring regularly, the body was actually closing in for actually several years. And it was the same thing with my teaching journey at the beginning, it was so easy. I was like, oh, it's gotta be this easy. But then, you know, I started to struggle. I wasn't getting enough students and people weren't interested, and that went on for several years, and then now it just started to opening back up again. So I still do not know why my body was actually closing in and staying that way, and I struggled for several years, and but because of it, I had to re-examine everything that I learned. Um, polyvagal theories and all those theories, I had to re um experience, applying everything I know to the reality that I was experiencing, and try to understand and how do I uh, you know, um kind of like a steer the direction into more opening rather than contracting. And that journey has been uh very rewarding for me. Still, I'm not as open as I was at the very beginning of TRE journey. It's like a beginner's luck. I think I had a beginner's luck, and then it takes another 20 years of meditation to actually achieve this state, right? Right. But it is really interesting. So um that that period of closing in, I still do not have a full understanding of it, but because of it, I was forced to go deeper to re-examine. So I'm very happy about that. And that in that process actually uh came out of my interest in fascia because my body was doing a lot of a fascia unwinding, right? And it kind of got me curious, like you know, from tremoring, actually moving tremoring, into like just stretching and unwinding. So I looked into uh you know fascia work and I was interested enough that actually I became a massage therapist, and um in order to take a professional myofascia release work, I had to become some kind of a hands-on therapist. Right. So I kind of bite the bullet and went to the school for massage therapy, and uh so that's my current interest along with you know continuing. Um how do I understand what's happening in TRE work? Yeah, and how can I what what if you yeah, and that's in as you know, you know, that's that's it's kind of a reverse. That's where I started, and then and then I went into TRE. And and um, but so I'm always interested in that um intersection as well, um, of of you know, tremoring is elicits the tremor, and sometimes we start to see more um myofascial reorganization and and uh uh uh movements that are more like stretches, twists, and and and and things like that. And then in the manual therapy world, like John F. Barnes' work, but also in cranial sycral therapy and in other traditions, you know, there is sort of that's unwinding as a as a principle. But I yeah, and and you and I haven't caught up very much since you've done the you know you've kind of entered that phase of your journey of the massage therapy and the fascia work. So I would love to hear just like what is that adding to your understanding either at the personal level or your or how you teach TRE? I I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. So the first of all, um there is a common element why I like TRE and why I am drawn to this kind of natural way of releasing, unwinding in fascia. Because both of them are uh body is reorganizing itself. So in hands on work of uh you know myofascia release, we are adding you know our touch to the body, but it is a mild, soft, gentle, sustained. Touch, which actually triggers the unwinding of the fascia on its own. And that happens in TRE as well. You know, we start with the tremoring response, but then the body is reorganizing itself into much more like open and fuller capacity, right? So there is a common element that I am pursuing. That's why I am interested. I'm not interested in like kind of like a hands-on manipulation, so to say, that I am just curious, like the body's capacity to um make itself a little bit more available and more open to the world. And how do I um how it has influenced my TRE teaching is I became more gentle. What I get out of TRE, what has really changed me is respect for the life the body is. It has its own innate wisdom, it has the record of you know something that is much, much greater than you know our human understanding can unfold at this time. And we are tapping into it and watching it just kind of unfolding in in front of our eyes. So that's what I like about TRE. That's why no matter what anybody else says, I said there is something very, very deep. And you know, but it's so simple and easy at the same time. It's complex but so simple. When it's happening, it takes no effort, right? Right, right. And same thing with the fascia unwinding. Um, but I became more patient because fascia unwinding takes a minimum of like two to three minutes of a hold, right? And then the longer the better. The longer you hold and you know sustain the light pressure, it gets deeper and releasing to deeper. So um I was already interested in slowing down the tremors for several years that I noticed that people start to actually feel things in much more like kind of a refined way when they don't feel when the tremors are strong and fast. Right. So I was already slowing down people, but with the myofascia work, that confirmed me why people were having the experience when the tremor was getting slower, and it has to do with the sensory receptors and different sensory receptors and the amount of information flowing into the brain, and the brain is selecting what to process. So I think if the tremor is way too fast, it's way too much information going up there, and then most of the uh more subtle processes are not getting um like caught on. So uh both of them were kind of like invitation for me to slow down and be more present. Um so that's the direction I am currently kind of exploring. Are you doing a lot of combined? Are you doing when you're back in the United States or in Korea, are you doing a lot of um fascial work and hands-on work? Is that an active part of your your your week-to-week right now? Yeah, yes. Uh well, um, yes. So I have several places that I have a hands-on just massage therapy work. And I have met some uh wonderful environment and mentors who actually encourages me, you know, to develop the work that you know in the style that I do. So I feel very, very lucky. So I became massage therapist last December. So this is actually quite new for me. So it's been 10 months. But when I'm in US, uh I'm in um pretty much not, I mean, I can't say eight hours of work, but I work like six days for four hours each day to um work with people, you know, with a manual therapy. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. Um, yeah, well, so what's what's so sounds like your next group in Korea is one of the so far the biggest. When does it when does it launch? Uh early November. Um, I forget the date. Is it November 8th or 9th or something like that? And so then will you be there for another two, three months or something like that? Yeah, yeah. Um that trip will be a little bit shorter, it's about a month. Um, but you know, I'm teaching in person. Yeah. And I didn't even formally um advertise the training yet. And uh I have 14 people fully committed to the entire training. And I tried to kind of dissuade them. I was like, well, you know, you this is kind of hard, it's a lot of work, you're sure you want to do it. And they're all committed. Um also, since they were committed away early, actually, I'm doing an online class with them for two months, actually preparing their personal practices before we formally start. And that's been um really rewarding because I start to see people changing about a month after. You know, at the beginning, it's all about excitement of like, oh my god, body is tremoring and things are happening, right? But the more subtle aspect of what does it mean to actually feel myself, you know, more connected and listening to the body. I think that is the quality that people need to develop. It's not about just tremoring everywhere in the body, but do you feel connected? Can you listen deeply into the body? When they start to actually have that experience, their practice completely changes and they become more respectful to themselves, to their body's reaction. And uh I find it really moving, and that happened, that doesn't happen right away, it takes a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Come coming back to you know, your the three images, the the the stressed out kids, uh teenagers, the the moms pouring everything into going all in with their children, the fathers uh carrying the burden, uh, but more in isolation, you know, your sort of those pictures of curr modern Korean society. I'm curious how, yeah, what's been the impact of your of your time in Korea? How have they been, how have your students been receiving it? What are you is you what what's your feeling? Are you are you uh is TRE making uh landing in the in the ways that you envisioned and hoped? I think it has its own life and purpose and it's spreading in the way that it needs to be. I mean, honestly, I thought it would go gangbuster in two to three years because the LA is so simple, so powerful, right? It's it's effective. So I thought, like, why wouldn't anybody want to not do it? And that's what I mean by I was naive. So no, it didn't work that way. Even though it's powerful, because it's powerful, some people are afraid, and some people think like this is something that's like, oh, you know, like it's weird, right? It's kind of a new age-ish. Yeah. So it has been full nine years now. Yeah. And it has been a lot slower than I anticipated. But I think those times were needed to kind of like not seeds being planted, right? And then it needs to develop a little root, you know, a couple of roots, and then it grows and grows and grows. And I didn't see much above the ground for a long time, even though I was very lucky that there wasn't enough people who wanted to learn more. So I was able to provide training for all these years. Um it's not at the number that I thought I would see, not in millions, but uh the providers that has become the providers, they are committed, and I have uh quite a few of them. They're very committed, and they are just quietly doing their work. So um they are the ones who was who is going to carry this movement forward, and I feel very, very not only lucky, but I feel very I feel really solid that there are good providers who have developing their own practices. So we're ready to take off. We are ready to take off in a much faster um way, but there are providers who can actually provide the service now. In terms of the your students there, um does it is it is this is it largely uh professionals, like is this counselors and therapists, is it is it body workers, is it yoga teachers, is it mothers, is it who who who is who are you finding is being um uh your the audience um uh taking the trainings there? It's the mixture of everybody. What was interesting to me was there's like quite a few school teachers who came to training. And I that's not a crowd that I was anticipating, but I have quite a few teachers from middle school to high school, um, a couple of university professors. So that's a population that I that was surprising to me. And they are struggling. The teachers are struggling, the students are struggling. They said the students' behavior is becoming more and more difficult every year, and there are more traumatic symptoms that they are seeing. So they want to kind of unburden themselves and then they want to be able to actually provide this service to students. So I have some school teachers who have implemented a TRE, but not in like a regular school curriculum, but as an extra like a group activities or in classes for like as a part of the mindful exercises. So I find that really exciting that they are trying out, you know, which format does it work, you know, where can I introduce? And there are teachers who have provided like as a continuing education service of a TRE workshop to the current teacher groups, and that had been going on for about three years now. So it's spreading among the teachers. And uh the quite a few number of people are therapists. They have done all the talk therapy and you know, brain spotting, internal family system, they have done all of it, and then they come to TRE and says, like, now it feels complete. Now I know what's missing, and these practices uh bring me to be more humble and truly understanding what it means to respect others and you know follow their process. So the bodily experience of TRE is actually what they have been talking about for decades, right? Follow the clients, you know. But um TRE practice is actually uh coming, you know, bringing them home to what that really means in practice. So I'm really happy about that. So there are quite a few uh therapists. Uh that would be probably the biggest if you look at the uh you know uh percentage of it. Breakdown, yeah. And there are a few kind of red like, you know, few people who are just common people, but they are interested in somatic work. And I think like the somatic work has been kind of on the upfront and you know forefront of um recent development. So they are like regular office workers, but they have done tons of dabbled into different somatic work and classes, and they come and find TRE. So as far as who join the training program, I think that it's more so in um as a professional work, therapists, school teachers. I have a couple of oriental medicine doctors who has become a TRE provider, and I have two coming in to the new cohort. So I find that also uh very exciting because they're already in tune with the net like natural way of healing, right? Yeah, and they have done a lot of other work as well, and then they come to TRE and they really like the um the people can take care of themselves. Yeah. And it's kind of like you know, triggering those natural healing uh capacity of the body mechanisms, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I I I'm thinking you know, I have, yeah, I've had a few um a Chinese med doctor, you know, a doctor of Chinese medicine acupuncturists come through the training, similar. And then I'm just thinking, right now I have a a student in, so I'm supporting a group in Iceland. And there's a uh uh one of the students is he's originally from Greece, uh, but is a uh physiotherapist in Iceland. And and in in and he just wrote an email yesterday, we're getting ready for module three this weekend. And he said, I've just been so excited about tremoring. He said, you know, I and I'm and I'm thinking this is the Western version of you know qi, you know, the sort of the eastern, you know, models of qi, and you know, this is sort of a western view of that. And I said, Yeah, yeah, I think you could make that case. Um that there's uh there's a connection there. So I and and and even in some of my teaching, I supported the some of the groups in China around going back around the time of the pandemic as that community was growing. And uh similarly, I always found it really interesting sort of looking at I think TRE is an is a is an interesting modality to look at from an east east east-west perspective, because if as far as Western modalities, it's it's it's maybe the it's one of the ones that's closest towards um you know creating this types of sensations and framework that you know is best you know more described through you know flows of energy and qi and you know from a from a Chinese medicine model. I don't know, what do you think? What do you think about that? No, I think you're absolutely correct that you know it's like we all know body heals itself, but I don't think most of us really know what that means. And then once you activate this tremoring response, like that takes a completely like whole new dimension of a body healing itself, right? Yeah, all of a sudden the chiropractical adjustment is happening on its own. Yeah, and it's more accurate and safer because it's not uh a kind of intervention coming from outside, but it is it's happening within, and the environment for the adjustment to happen is prepared by itself before that you know uh large bone structure start to move. Yeah, so um and it's so much more effective when you can actually let go into this natural phenomenon if you feel safe with it. You're you're completely unguarded and relaxed, and things are happening itself. And then if you actually tense up, it interrupts the process, right? It's less effective. So I think that's one of the biggest lessons of like, you know, when you let go into the life force, life flow, things are much more effective and more powerful, and it happens on its own. So that's my lesson. And TRE actually shows it in front of your eyes. It's like how does he know the pelvis start to like move like this weight and then rotate, and then all of a sudden, like shoulders start to loosen up. And so for a lot of people, it's like, oh, the body is really talking to each other and uh connected and opening up itself. So in many different ways, um structurally and as you said, energetically, I think the the more you practice theory, the more you pay attention to it, that you become you develop the senses, you know, interoception, extraception, and proprioception, all of it, including energy field, I think you start to actually sense more and more accurately. I totally agree. Yeah. Cool. Well, it's so interesting to hear about how the work and how how the how the vision began and how it's and I and I I also didn't really know that piece around, you know, roll rolled out the red carpet, sort of that that beginner's experience, and then a period of both at the personal level and professional level, of you know, kind of having to kind of like being tested a little bit because uh oh yes, because things were not uh falling into place the same way. Um but then but then but then coming through the other side and seeing seeing you know the benefits of having stayed the course. So that's very cool to hear about the struggling period was in reaching and deepening my understanding, my you know, the internal experiences. I'm still in it, but I'm excited about it because now I know what it means. You know, it's not all like easy-flowing days are the happy days that you know I can stay in the course when I'm struggling, and actually there is much more um wealth of experiences to develop, and I am very happy about it. So I want to tell you one thing that was also surprising in working in TRE. Yeah, please do. It's kind of a fun piece. So when I said I was going to Korea, a lot of my colleagues in um US and Western world, you know, immediately asked me, Oh my god, like are you going to have a chance to work with the North Koreans? And I said it's like, no. I've never met a Korean North Korean person in my life, I've never seen them. Like, no, it's like we don't really talk to each other. Sure, sure. And I it was not in my dream. But then fast forward two years ago, a counseling center that is funded by the government contacted me saying that we would like to provide TRE classes to North Korean refugees who lives in South Korea. I see. Interesting. Yeah. And I was like, what? So we went and taught. And there were people they nobody was sleeping in that class. I mean, like, I I mean like because of their experiences and their health conditions, everybody had a difficult sleeping. Okay. To the level that, you know, the doctor could not prescribe any more sleeping pills. It's like if this is the maximum dose I can give you anymore. And they could not sleeping. So after one TRE class, actually they slept. They slept well. Yeah. So they became like, no, it can't be. You know, it can't be just this one class that put me to sleep. But three or four days later, now this not being able to sleep, you know, started to surface back. And out of curiosity, you know, one person says, you know, I like I tried. I looked up the video and I tried, and I was just sleeping well again for several days. So they start to actually see the result and believe in it. And there was like some person who comes home for lunch during work, and then they would tremor. And she said, I'm emotionally more stable, I'm more clear. I was used to be really tired and I couldn't work afternoon very well, but now I'm clear, I have more energy. So that was really pleasant. And then the uh organization calls me back and says, you know, we would like to offer that again. So this time, actually, I did two different groups of four-week classes in September. So one was just the Korean North Korean refugees, then the another group is actually the people who escaped North Korea, got caught, sent back, and escaped again. I see. So, like, so you guys were right. It's like, can you teach? Are you going to have an impact to North Korean refugees? And yes, unknowingly, that is making a difference in their community. Uh, at the end of the four-week class, both classes, people were saying it's like, whoa, I don't believe it first. We really like it, we are seeing the result. This is way too short, we want it to be longer. So the organization is um going to try to have a longer classes next year. Oh, that is so wonderful to hear about, Unju. That's fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I think the humanitarian application of TRE is so ununder. I mean, it's done. People are doing it in, you know, all over. Uh, but the the potential of it is is is huge. On on for me, like um well let's see, in two weeks, uh so I'm hopeful. So so Steve Haynes, I know, did some work with TRE in Ukraine near the beginning of the war, and maybe maybe some others have as well. Um I'm uh but I got invited to present TRE to a a big online conference for therapy, it's all for therapists in in Ukraine. Um so this will be in a in a couple weekends. We did Sort of a a very short version, very impromptu a couple weeks ago, and they really found it interesting, so they wanted more, so they wanted to get sort of a fuller piece because they could easily imagine the applicability to it. So, like that's an area that I hope will be useful. Something you'll get a kick out of. I you you know, you know, you and I we uh texted a few months back about um working with um nuns and and missionaries and whatnot. So I I came back about two weeks ago from Ireland and I was working with a group of missionary nuns, uh part of an organization called the Missionary Sisters of the Holy Rosary. That's their order, it's a cat Catholic order. Um and um one thing that's funny is so the woman, this is the leadership team for organization that supports mission work throughout Africa. And uh Sister Franca is sort of the the leader, so this is what you'll think is funny. She learned TRE from Dr. Biscelli, Dave, in 2001, because he he came and he presented to their community in Ireland in 2001, and she this is the amazing part, she has been tremoring twice per day, virtually every day, since 2001. What? So I thought, wow, here we have somebody, a case study, 24 years of twice daily that to me that's the record. I haven't heard anybody else with a more long-term practice uh than this than this woman. Um, but she has she credits TRE with just so much of uh giving her all kinds of um capacity for the work, and she's in a very stressful position. Um they all each of these women are there they're you know you you know we think of nuns as sort of I mean, some nuns are living sort of a cloistered um experience, but these nuns are very, very engaged. Um both both practically with people and also administratively, they have lots. They're it's very, very engaged, engaged work. Um, and they loved it. Um and so their their goal and their organization is okay, they learned these these six women learned, and then the next the next layer is now can they start to propagate it through some of their the local communities in Cameroon and um Kenya, Nigeria, um uh uh the parts of South Africa, the places where they have their communities. Um but I no, but I I think the um but I no, I I you I hadn't heard your piece with the um North Korean refugees, but I I um I imagine that's extremely impactful for them. And I I look forward to hearing more about I hope that program continues. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, well, the people are asking that they want a longer classes. I was like, oh, four weeks we're just barely beginning, you know, we want like two months and three months. Right. So um their demand is um kind of make you know the class to continue much easier. So the person who was in charge of it, you know, he was going to recommend to the organization to have a longer classes next year. So I am very hopeful. And the thing is the person who's organizing this, he is practicing himself. Right. I think that is the thing, you know, because he practices himself, he knows the power and he can tell people with a confidence that you know, same thing with the nun that you mentioned, I think it's the power of the personal practice that they know this work by their body and by their soul. Yeah. That way, um, that's why, you know, when they explain to other people, there is a lot of power, there's authentic power. Yeah, yeah. And the other interesting places that I have gone uh recently is the um, it was uh also a national organization, nationally funded organization, uh, that works with the uh teenagers, children and teenagers who are socially unadaptable, have really you know struggling to adapt to the society. So there is a uh kind of a leave-in facility, you know, they check in for a week or three-week program or sometimes a little bit longer, and uh social workers and um therapists who actually work with these children. I was invited to that organization, and it was two-day TRE-intensive or workshop for their therapist. And I had out just over 30 people, 33 people signed up, and it's a two full days. This is in the United States or in Korea? Well, that's in Korea. Uh-huh. Okay. So it's making way into this national organizations and therapist world. Another place that I was invited that was interested in is a military hospital. Uh specifically, they focused on like a mental health, you know, specialty military hospital, and their staff was interested. So I think it was back in April I went and present for three hours to all the core members and you know the medical staff. So they have experienced theory, and I am looking forward to be invited back and see if we can make any further kind of uh uh in with in the military culture. But I think it's kind of difficult, it's a very like uh structured and not only structured, but it's uh what do you call a um it takes a while for them to actually accept something new and put it into their program. So as I thought, you know, it's like I thought TRE would be just booming in Korea in two to three years. That was not the reality. And so I take the same approach that you know, just being patient, stay the course, just keep going back, keep doing the work. Um so these are the areas that I have been invited, and I am uh looking forward to kind of that it will continue to spread that way. Yeah, very cool. Well, good. Well, any any any closing comments or words of wisdom before we wrap up? No, anybody who's interested, I say stay the course, be interested in your own experience, continue to be gentle to yourself, listen deeply. You know, the body speaks in a way that is very soft and subtle, and if you're loud in your head, you'll miss it. So you know so respect you know what your body is saying and you know explore in different ways. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, Unchu, thank you so much for taking time. Well, thanks for the invitation. I enjoyed the conversation and hope to catch up with you some other time as well. Cool. That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic droning. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people interested in this transformative work. And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.