E17 - From Stillness to Shaking: Meditation, TRE, and the Body's Lead with Gabriel Kaszab

In this episode, Alex sits down with Gabriel to explore one of the most unusual origin stories in the NI community: a meditator who came to neurogenic tremoring not through a workshop or a training, but through his own body's spontaneous intelligence. Their conversation moves through Gabriel's childhood states of effortless meditation in Romania, the schooling that gradually shut those states down, his rediscovery of deep presence through Eckhart Tolle, and the seven years he spent tremoring alone without knowing anyone else did this too. Then — what changed when he finally learned TRE existed, why he dove straight into the practitioner training, and how he now integrates tremoring with Reiki, salsa warmups, singing bowls, and light language in his sessions with clients.

This is a conversation about neurogenic tremoring as more than release — as playfulness, as meditation, as a continuum that lives not just on the mat, but walking, swimming, driving, and waiting in line at the supermarket.

Gabriel Kaszab is a TRE® practitioner and Reiki practitioner based in Brisbane, Australia. He came to neurogenic tremoring spontaneously through a meditation practice he developed in his thirties, and practiced privately for seven years before discovering TRE® and training as a provider. He facilitates individual and group sessions in Brisbane, integrating TRE® with Reiki, intuitive bodywork, and somatic movement. Find him at gabrielkaszab.com.

⏱ KEY HIGHLIGHTS
00:00 — Welcome & Introductions: Alex in Boulder, Gabriel in Brisbane
 02:00 — Childhood in Romania: Spontaneous Meditation States That "Just Happened"
 05:00 — Schooling and the Gradual Closing Down (by age 9 or 10)
 06:00 — The Search Begins in His Twenties: Salsa, Photography & the Hunger for Something More
 08:00 — Eckhart Tolle and the Moment of Recognition: "He Talks That Language"
 10:00 — The Middle-of-the-Night Moment: First Spontaneous Tremoring
 12:00 — Seven Years of Private Practice: Daily Tremoring Without a Name for It
 14:00 — Coffee with Emmeline: "That Sounds Like TRE"
 17:00 — What Knowing TRE Changed — and What Stayed the Same
 20:00 — Diving Into the Practitioner Training: Not to Facilitate, Just to Embody
 22:00 — The Varieties of Autogenic Movement: Shaking, Myofascial Flow, Pandiculation, Pulse & Mudras
 29:00 — What Pandiculation Actually Is (and Why It Feels Alchemical)
 32:00 — TRE as the Playfulness of Meditation
 36:00 — Tremoring as a Continuum: Walking, Driving, Swimming, the Bus Stop
 39:00 — Family and the Ones Who Don't Quite Get It (Yet)
 41:00 — His Parents' Stories: A Mother Who Thought She Had Parkinson's, a Father Whose Vertigo Shakes Away
 44:00 — Becoming a Practitioner: "I Had Nothing to Offer — And That Was the Point"
 46:00 — How Intuition Opened: Sensing What's Happening in a Client's Body
 49:00 — Salsa as Warmup: What Dancers Know That TRE Can Use
 52:00 — Singing Bowls, Group Sessions & Entering Tremoring from a Place of Presence
 54:00 — Keith Motz, Shaking Medicine & the Global Community of Shakers
 57:00 — Reiki and Tremoring: Why They Work Together So Well
 01:04:00 — Light Language, Intuitive Touch & Meeting People Where They Are
 01:08:00 — Closing Reflection: It Doesn't Have to Be Serious. This Is Fun.

🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS MENTIONED
Gabriel Kaszab — TRE® & Reiki practitioner, Brisbane: gabrielkaszab.com
Emmeline — TRE provider, Australia (Gabriel's first introduction to TRE)
Dr. David Berceli — Creator of TRE®: https://treglobal.org
Richmond Heath — TRE provider and trainer, Australia: https://tre4you.com.au
Dr. Keith Motz — Shaking Medicine & therapeutic tremoring: [link]
Eckhart Tolle — The Power of Now & Stillness Speaks: https://www.eckharttolle.com
Continuum Movement — Body-based somatic practice: https://continuummovement.com
Ratu Bagus — Shaking meditation retreat, Bali: https://ratubagus.com
Seitai Katsugen Undo — Japanese form of autogenic movement

🔗 Join our live weekly classes → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#classes
 🎓 Explore our Online TRE® Certification → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#cert

📍 FIND US ONLINE
Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/  Instagram: @neurogenicintegration

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green. And I am Celia Sunfields. Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research. Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you. Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being. So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. All right, hello everybody. I'm Alex Green, and I am so excited to be sitting down this uh afternoon for me and morning for Gabriel. But my guest is Gabriel Kassab, and uh I'm in Boulder, Colorado, in the United States, as usual. And Gabriel lives in Brisbane, Australia, where he's joining us today. And um Gabriel is a fellow TRE practitioner and provider as well as a Reiki uh practitioner and uh some other work that we'll hear more about in his practice. But um I I came across Gabriel sort of uh through social media and different, you know, the way that I sort of get to track and observe, you know, different tremorers around the world. And um I've come to understand that Gabriel just kind of has his own unique story of finding his way to neurogenic tremoring well before learning it formally, just some formative experiences in his own life history and his own embodiment path. And um uh that uh to me is such a cool story. So I asked if if I could sit down and interview uh Gabriel today uh just to hear his story about Tremoring and how he's what he's doing with it today and how he works with others. So that is uh the theme of our our day. And Gabriel, thanks so much for joining us. Oh, thank you, Alex. It's a pleasure to be here. Really looking forward to uh conversation. Yeah, very cool. Well, yeah, I mean, let's just kind of start at the beginning, so to speak. Like um, or or we could we could start anywhere in your timeline, but but uh that's what I'm most curious about is like what do you consider the your the first step of your journey that led you to know more about the body and tremoring and and the path that you have let on been led on Ah well I the really first step I if I am honest is when when I was a child, I I would fall into deep states of meditation as a child. They were spontaneous. So um I didn't know anything about meditation or you know I wasn't chasing it, it just they would happen. So and I think that's what true meditation is when it just happens, it's a happening, there's nothing you can do about it. Right. Um so those those states of meditation would reveal a deep a deeper aspect of reality of myself or of reality itself. And to me it was totally natural. So I didn't think to talk about it to anyone because I thought everyone knew that. Right. And so I didn't think to share, and nobody spoke about it like that around me. So then I didn't have like someone to go, oh, they are speaking about this, then I'll have a conversation with them. So it's totally a private sort of uh experience as a child. Can I ask a little bit about it's like how well so I'm sure I'm sure you remember the experiences, you know, the feeling and the experience, but do you remember the context well? It's like was the were you in your in your room or the garden or at school or the what was what do you remember like the the settings in which that would show up sometimes? All all of those settings actually. So sometimes it would be in the evenings when I would close my eyes, sometimes it would be in the garden. It would just something would suddenly struck me. It's like, wow, there's something else here. Um in a cinema once, I had this uh psychedelic experience in a cinema once. I started instead of seeing the screen itself, I was just seeing psychedelics everywhere. Um, but yeah, it would happen in different different situations. And I think the only in in reflection, the only thing I can say is that there would put there would be times when my mind would relax and then something would open up. And that could be any time, right? So the mind would suddenly come to a standstill for whatever reason, and then something would be revealed. And that's I think what meditation actually is. It's uh we're trying very hard now as adults to let go of that thinking mind and to bring it to to a still point. But as a child it was happening naturally, and maybe it happens for most of us, I don't know. I imagine it happens for most of us, but I've been told that's not the case. I I don't know. Yeah, I can't answer that for people. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so that's that's one piece of the story is those early memories. Yeah, yeah. And and often I was yanked out of these experiences because I was seen to be a daydreamer, and that was not cool being a daydreamer. So the people around me would yank me out. So it's quite a little bit abrupt, you know. Yeah. Um, and then eventually, I think by the age of nine or ten, with the schooling in Romania was quite intense. And I think um, and it was quite harsh because you know you had to really effort to get knowledge or to understand things, whereas for me that kind of understanding came naturally and it was a lot deeper. So, in contrast, schooling was actually very uh abrasive and very very rigid. I see. So I I think these moments maybe stop, these types of meditations maybe stop by the age of nine or ten. And then, you know, the the life of you know going to school and playing sports sort of started to take shape, forgetting about these um or these things just didn't happen anymore. Yeah, yeah. And I guess um in my twenties I spent a lot of time studying and and building a career and that. But in my mid-20s, I think I started searching for that again without knowing what I was doing. I didn't I didn't know that that's what I was searching for, but I was looking at things like I ended up doing salsa, like dancing and photography, and then I ended up in a career in videography, and I was very curious person, but in hindsight, I was actually searching for those type of experiences again, and I didn't know that initially. In my 30s, I finally came across uh Ekartole. Yeah, sure. I ended up in bookstores, and I don't read books, but I ended up in bookstores looking for something without knowing what I was looking for. And I came across Ekartole, and um he him there was a story of his awakening. Right. Um I'm not sure if you're aware of it. Do you remember which book? Like there's the new earth and uh the power of now. Yeah, but what yeah, what drew me to it wasn't the book that drew me to him, it was like the story of how he woke up, which um simplistically he was quite depressed, you know, quite quite in a bad place. And right his mantra in his head was I can no longer live with myself. I can no longer live with myself. And one night when must have gotten to to the to the most intense part, he suddenly had an epiphany or realization there's two entities here, the I that can no longer live with the self. Right. So I guess uh he he must have seen the ego in that respect. Yeah, I had a similar experience as a child where I could actually see the thinking mind, the ego. Yeah, um, so there was a separation. So then I realized this person talks that language, he talks in that way that I I was experiencing as a child. So finally I had someone to wow, this is what resonates with me very deeply, you know. So I started reading Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now. Um, Stillness Speaks was the next book that I uh um read by Eckhart Tolle. So I guess this is where my venture into meditation started again, and um I would get a lot of insights out of these reading these books, and then I would end up um back into my uh natural contemplative part, which is what I was as a child. So I'll get lots and lots of of uh insights and beautiful understandings. But this is to marry up with TRE. I was not a yogi, I was not into body work at all. I was just into these insights, that's all I knew, and I was not interested in the body, to be honest. Um yeah, so very different to a yogi, um, you know, who's interested in the body and wants to explore that. However, through this meditation, it led me to the body. So my my basic meditation was you know self-inquiry, contemplation, yeah, and then awareness, basic awareness of my external environment. But then I took that into the internal environment, and that's where things I think started to shift. So becoming aware of the thoughts and emotions inside the body, but also the natural flow of the breath and the the natural movement of the body as well. So maybe 12 years ago, roughly, I started to experience uh a natural um realignment of the spine, I called it, because I would slouch, and then as soon as I would become present with my own body, my body would actually naturally, like it does now, this is how it wants to realign. And it was not forced and it was not directed, it was just a natural flow that's already there. Okay. Um, and one evening um I woke up out of bed uh in the middle of the night and I couldn't sleep, and I just felt I needed to get out of the bed. I went into the living room, I lay down on the floor, and before I could know anything or do anything, I felt this energy in my feet, or it was heat, like a beautiful sort of heat and energy in my feet, and that traveled into my legs, and from the legs it traveled into the upper body, and that's when the body started shaking. So that was my first experience, possibly. There was another experience which is totally different with shaking, and I can reflect on that. But this was this experience was um crucial because from this point onwards, every time I would go into meditation, my body would shake. So now the meditation and the shaking was in parallel. Yeah. And uh I didn't know what the shaking was about, so I did some quick quick research, not much, just a quick research, and I could not find anything at the time. I remember I asked the Buddhist monk on the street, you know, if she knew anything about it, and she said, I'm sorry, I can't, I don't know, I can't help you with that. Right. And I thought, okay, I can't find any research on online, and the if the Buddhist monk doesn't know, then nobody knows. Right. That's what I thought. Right, right. I was wrong, but uh that's what I thought. So then basically for the next seven years, I would shake in private pretty much every single day. Uh-huh. So whenever I would meditate, yeah, the shakes would come on. I knew that I had a I had a little model of kundalini, and I'm not a kundalini person, but this model of kundalini, which said that sometimes when kundalini comes through the body, it meets resistance, you know, uh, which is you know traumas and uh tension and fears, right? And and it basically tries to loosen up the that resistance. Okay. And I thought perhaps this is what's happening for me here. Maybe it is kundalini, maybe it's not. I was not interested in kundalini either. But I thought it feels like something like that is happening. So then I did not pay attention to the tremors at all for seven years. They were just, to me, they were byproduct of being in a meditative state. Uh-huh. Um, so I didn't inquire into the tremors, I didn't try to play with them, I didn't um invest in. Or you just you just sort of were kind of neutral towards them, like you just absolutely. Yeah. And they would get quite intense as well. So my neck, my hand. This is in a in a sitting meditation posture, or or what kinds of like when you would go into or or laying down, or like what what what kind of a physical posture? Predominantly lying down, because I I never really meditated much sitting up. I would just go and and lie down, relax, and then meditation would happen. I see. So predominantly um lying down, but it could be even while I was walking. Because even when I was walking, I would contemplate sometimes. And then there would be something happening in the body. So um predominantly lying down, but it was not sort of uh only when life was. It wasn't restricted to that, yeah. It wasn't restricted to that, and um even driving, actually. I would drive and contemplate, and then I would feel something happening in the body, and it's like, okay, whatever, that's that thing's going on again, and uh, it's okay. Yeah, yeah. So I did that for seven years. I didn't tell anyone because again, I didn't think well, no, no, I didn't think anyone would know about it. And um I saw the this journey as a personal journey, um, the meditation journey and whatever was happening. I saw it as a personal thing, and I didn't think to share that with many people because I was aware that a lot of people are resistant to that anyway. So I was very respectful of others, and I thought this is my journey, and I'll respect that, and then I'll respect everyone else, and I'll I'll keep it at that. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, yeah. And and and then what? Because some something must have happened after. I mean, it's there was there's another chapter or several chapters since then. So, well, what's what's next in the in the journey? Well, um maybe seven years later, I was having coffee with Emmeline, which is a TRE um provider in Australia, and she she was a friend of mine. I knew her as a counselor and massage therapist, and I knew she was a little bit spiritual as well. And we were just catching up for coffee, and for some reason I decided to ask her, hey, have you, you know, have you heard anything about shaking in meditation? And uh Emmeline said, Well, Gap, that sounds like TRE. So I said, What on earth is TRE? And um, yeah, she explained it to me. And um and and the beautiful thing about TRE, I I think is that the understanding of what this neurogenic tremor is. I I had a very I think I had a correct understanding, but I I didn't really expand on it. Okay. Um when Emmeline explained TRE to me, even though I was comfortable for seven years with the process, I was even more comfortable now because I thought, wow, this is actually not just me. It's actually a lot of people around the world are doing this. It's a it's a practice that is available to everybody, and it's a practice that it's been utilized. Um, so that actually relaxed me even more into the process. And now, after seven years of letting it happen on its own, now I had actually a curiosity towards it. So the beauty of that is that then it can deepen into the practice. You know, I was very proficient with it anyway, but now you can deepen it with it in another angle, right? Because there is another angle, right? Um, and the the the beauty is that um with TRE, I actually now understand what it actually is. The neurogenic tremors are, I understand the benefits of them from so many different perspectives, and I can interact with it in another way. So I'm not now limited to just meditating and tremoring. Right. I can now consciously go into the process at will. So that there's a beauty in that. The other beauty is that I can now actually investigate the process, I can be with it and see exactly where it wants to go and how it wants to expand. So it actually for me, um, TRE was like opening up this amazing box again of possibilities, of potentialities. And um I I really this the moment I saw that, I really appreciated for that. The other benefit that TRE had for me is that um by practicing TRE, I would get into a meditative state. So now I had another way into neurogenic tremors for you know the benefit of the body, the nervous system, but I had another way into meditation as well. Yeah. So it's like, okay, I can meditate and get into this natural flow, or I can instigate it and end up in meditation as well. Right. So that that's just fantastic, you know. All right, I have like three questions coming up all at the same time. I have to figure out which order to ask them. So I guess my first question is, you know, to me, what strikes me as interesting that you know, during this initial seven-year period, you're become you're becoming quite familiar to Tremoring, quite proficient and um quite accepting of it. Um, but then when you came to understand that you weren't alone, there were other people, there was a modality around it, people, you know, other benefits, you know, not related specifically to meditation, so you're kind of your your horizons expanded a little bit as to what that phenomenon is. Um, part of me is just thinks, oh, it's it's cool that you were curious, because in some ways you could have been not that curious, like, okay, well, other people do this too, I do this, but you were curious, so I find that interesting. Um but that's not my question. My qu I think my main qu my my main question here is uh when you did come to understand, when you came to learn more about it, you've already alluded to this a little bit, but I I'd love to know more about how that changed your practice of it. I mean it sounds like you yeah, like how did you how did it tangibly start to change your approach? Once you learned, okay, there's a there's a method people use to start it, there's all the like what what changed about how you engaged with it in let's say the first year or so once you knew that TRE existed Well, I have to give uh a lot of credit to Emmeline because um the first session that I had with Emmeline, you know, I decided initially actually I was a little bit cautious of TRE because I had the understanding that for me this process was happening in naturally without forcing, without pushing, without tinkering, right? So then there's a little bit of a question mark, why why would I instigate this process um at will? Because it's happening naturally anyway. And if I do, am I poking something that I'm not supposed to poke? Sure. So there was a little bit of doubt, but uh the curiosity was stronger. So I had a session with Emmeline, and um I I absolutely fell in love with with the process, you know, the first session, because um I had been shaking on my own for seven years, but here with Emmeline, there was a person right next to me that really understood the process, was was in line with my way of thinking and understanding and everything. And to have another human being on the same level as you that is actually supporting you, and she's quite intuitive as well, so quite often she would support me at the right time, in the right place, you know, for the right amount, and to to sense that, to sense that there's another human being that gets you in this process. That that was really beautiful, and uh I could relax even deeper into it with another human being, right? Uh the process gave me the way of uh the method of getting into it myself, but with another human being is just phenomenal, it's just beautiful. And I think that's how we're supposed to live. We're supposed to be deeply connected with each other, and TRE gives us that. So that's one of the beauties of TRE. It gives us the opportunity to be deeply connected with the other person. So when I am facilitating TRE, it's not that I am the TRE facilitator and he's this you know person that's needy or something like that. It's ah this is an opportunity for me to be uh in a deep relationship with someone else. And and that is it. And if I can assist them, fantastic. But it's it's giving me the opportunity to experience uh life with another human being on a much deeper level, and that to me is is the beauty of it, you know, of facilitating a session. Yeah. Um but to enter how how did it actually um affect me? Well, straight away I saw the practitioner program and I thought I gotta do that, and I didn't know why. I gotta do that for myself because I wanted to deepen in the practice. And I felt that if I do the practitioner program, I'm I'm gonna deepen my own practice. So that's how interested and curious I was in it, that I was willing to do the practitioner course. Um, not thinking that I would become a practitioner, an active practitioner, just simply to embody the process. Sure. I loved it so much. So that first thing uh um experience with Emmeline was very profound. It it uh sparked this curiosity. And of course, as I was doing, I think the practitioner course came up very quickly after that. So I I kind of dove into it very very fast. My own personal practice changed from the sense that I was now curious about this process. Before I wasn't curious about it, I just allowed it to happen, but now I was curious, and very quickly I noticed that there are the five TRE positions, you know, the five basic positions that we tremor in. But uh my body, I guess I was fairly intuitive now with my body. I could see that my body wanted to go in different directions and do different things, different positions, different postures, and um using props. So immediately I I kind of expanded very quickly because I was very attentive to it. Yeah. Um, so it progressed very quickly, much more than the original five TRE positions. And I thought, oh my god, and of course, it goes into um into my facial stretching as well, which I was doing a lot of that, and um uh Um I I I have now discovered there's different types of movements as well. There's myofacial stretching, there's the the body flow as well, there's um candiculation, as you know. Right. I find that there is a pulse as well, and um, you know, that a pulsing that happens. And I ended up doing um a lot of uh mudras, you know, like hand singles and gestures and mudras. And um I realized that they to me they all have a a slightly different purpose, they come from the same source, but they seem to have uh, you know, like um I I find shaking itself is predominantly for release, whereas the stretching is predominantly for an expansion. Okay. And I find that the pandiculation for me is predominantly for um it's like an uh alchemical process. It transforms or transmutes something in the body. Right? So it's actually that's what I sense, that's what I feel when pandiculation happens uh spontaneously. So sometimes just in case anybody listening doesn't everybody listening definitely knows what tremoring is. I mean, this whole podcast is about tremoring. Um and so they know what that is. They probably know what myofascial movement is, which is more sort of either body being led into say stretches or movements or twists or or things of that nature. But what why don't you explain pendiculation? Because for some listeners, they may not know exactly what you mean. I hope I get it right because I've been trying to understand what the word pendiculation is. But in in short, uh the way I understand it is when we wake up in the morning, like we have this initial um it looks like a stretch, but actually it's a squeeze as well. So like actually squeezing the muscle. It's not just a stretch, it's a squeezing of the muscle. Right. And um the squeezing of the muscle, I I heard is really important to get the body ready to for action because it it brings it brings blood flow and everything back into the body so it can actually become active. Yeah, so from that perspective, it's really important when we wake up in the morning to do that natural pandic. So pandiculation is the stress, uh the the contraction or the uh um of the muscles. Um pretty much like the heart, you know, the heart has you know this movement and it's there to pump energy or to pump flow. Yeah. And this pandiculation is a similar thing. It's it's the contracting of the muscles to to create uh life, to create movement. Um and um yeah, so that's how I see pandiculation. No, that's perfect. And one thing that's interesting is actually like uh pandiculation itself, you know, that term, in terms in the, you know, if you go digging around for you know what is physiology, what is know about spontaneous movement in general, um, and other than like pathological tremoring like with you know um Parkinson's or or neurodegenerative things, um pendiculation is often the one that's most uh recognized and studied as you know as a as a spontaneous movement like in animals and things like that. So um yeah, anyway, it's an interesting but I uh but I'm really I'm enjoying these distinctions you're making between that shaking tends to be, in your experience, it's kind of it's about release. Uh what was it that the myofascial movement feels more like expansion, expansion of something. And then the pendiculation you feel is the some you kind of ill alchemical process. Uh this is this is very I am I'm enjoying hearing your your description of your of your of your experience like this. So keep going, keep going. Yes, well, uh this is more recent understanding that I'm coming across. And you you know that there's also contraction. So when when we are involved, but the contraction is actually we we could say a negative contraction or a fearful contraction. So sometimes what I've noticed that if I look at the contraction in my body, and then I bring pandiculation to the formula, and then wonder if this contraction could be pandiculation itself, it seems to move into that. And that's when I realize that okay, this is potentially the alchemical process turning the contraction into something beautiful. Yeah, so it's another way of seeing the contraction literally within your body. Yeah, so um I used to look at my contractions and see if I can relax into them, but now I also ask the question is there a pendiculation happening here within the contraction? And then the contraction changes, it transforms from contraction to pendiculation, which contraction is a painful process, whereas pandiculation is is a um a beautiful sort of feeling. So I I feel the pandiculation it is a nice, ah yes, this feels good, this feels great. Satisfying in a way, it's satisfying, yeah. So that's why I feel that this uh pendiculation, for me at least, that's how it seems to manifest. Um the I'm not sure about the pulsing. A lot of times my arm does pulsing or or the limbs do pulsing, the body can do it as well. I haven't worked out what that is, but um the other movements, the uh the mudras, I feel that they actually don't really have anything to do with the physical body or the nervous system. It's beyond. It's almost like a creative expression for no particular reason, but it's just beautiful in just the capacity to have that, to to be able to create or to be creative. Right. There is a reason because that creating creativity is a is a joyfulness and is a beauty and it's a letting go of everything, but I think it's kind of going beyond the physical body and the nervous system into something other than that. Yeah. Very cool. Um I'm curious, you know, in this period when you became curious, you joined the training, you you know, you did you did your your uh you know, you continued your exploring that way, you know, some of your story uh and I'm so and I'm and I'm supposing that Richmond Heath was probably involved in your training, uh just as you know, one of the early people in um in Australia. And I know and I don't know how open he is about his background when he's in his teaching mode, but I know from my conversations with him and podcast interviews and things, you know, uh some at least some parallels to your story where actually I believe for him it was during a Vapasana retreat that a trem uh with a w a tremendous amount of spontaneous movement was coming up. And I think similarly, you know, sort of like when you asked the Buddhist monk on the street if she could help and she didn't know too much about it, I think he was a little if if memory serves, he also didn't get a ton of sort of support around this, although, you know, once you start looking around, there are definitely other meditators who get tremoring in spontaneous movement. So, so, you know, I know you know that there's more of them. But so I'm just curious, like if you did any comparing of notes with Richmond in that early phase of of of your uh learning about tremoring or not particularly or no, actually I didn't um I think in the training I was very focused on on the teaching, and I didn't he may have mentioned stuff, but it didn't obviously didn't stick with me if he had mentioned that. Okay. But I have heard recently, I have heard that he had come across this process through Vipassana, and uh I have had a few people come to me who are meditators and they move or shake in meditation, and uh they don't know what that is, and usually they try and suppress it because um most people who meditate like that, they they understanding is that you have to be still, right? And then if there is movement, well that movement is not stillness, and then they try to to correct that, but in correcting that then they are no longer still. So I think one of the um I there was a yoga teacher somewhere, and I think they said to be still means to not move a muscle in your body. But if a muscle in your body moves, do not hold it back because then you're no longer still. And I think some some meditators don't understand the other part. Sometimes the muscle moves on its own. Don't hold it back, because if you're holding back, you're no longer still because now you're engaged in holding it back. Right, right, yeah. And that's one of the understandings I think there's is is missing for some meditators. They they really feel I have to be perfectly still. But you know, in this dimension, nothing is still, you know, even a rock moves. You know, when we look at a rock under the microscope, there's there's movement there. So life itself here is based on movement and um where we have contraction, which is sphere, that is a reduction of life or reduction of movement. Right. And what we really want to do is we want to bring movement, natural movement back to that. But from a non-forceful way, it's just a natural way. Right. Yeah. So an another question I so you mentioned that the other cool thing that you found about, you know, once you knew TRE was that it was it was sort of a another pathway into a meditation state for you, which I I get that from my own background as well. But I'm curious for you, um maybe you could describe that a little bit, because here's this to to to make my question slightly more specific. What I'm wondering is is for you, when like when you learned to not just let tremoring arise on its own, but to consciously begin it, you know, sort of through the TRE framework and get it going, so to speak. My curiosity for you and when you made the connection that, hey, this leads me to the state of meditation. My question is like, in your experience, does that arise sort of right away, or it grows, or it comes in it's it's it's in the spaces in between tremoring, or it's when you stop tremoring that you find yourself more in a meditative state, or all of those things. Um maybe my question is difficult to answer, but that's that's what I'm curious about, is sort of w how you've how you uh yeah, what you can say about how TRE leads you to the state of meditation. I think TRE uh in in that respect is is the playfulness state of meditation. Right? Because we we can be totally still and nothing's happening, but that's not the end. I think that's not the end uh goal in meditation. Yes, there is a stillness, but once you uh once we stay in that stillness, there is a playfulness, a beautiful and natural expression, and I feel that um TRE provides me with that. It provides me the playfulness state of meditation. It's not always about being still and not moving and getting insights, but actually being involved in the world. So taking that meditative state, and how would you take them? How would the meditative state look like in the world? Um, so from a couple of my insights, it it's a playfulness, you know, because you've got you're not clinging to anything and you're totally giving of yourself, and it ends up being being a playfulness or um a celebration, a celebration of the physical body and the joy and the energy that is there. So it it's not meditation necessarily being still, but but then in the end, if you practiced, you know, TRE for 30 minutes or an hour, whatever it is, you may end up to the still point as well naturally. But even as you're in the tremor process, there is a meditation state because there's an awareness and of what's going in the body. And uh yeah, it's beautiful, it's it's it's uh joyful and it's pleasant and uh it's creative, you know. So I I I guess I don't look at it so much from a trauma perspective. Right. I look at more from okay, this is fun, and um, and I don't even now I don't often attempt to tremor. It's more like the tremor says, Hey, let's do it. So it's more like this is what feels natural. It's like responding to what comes natural within myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cool. I don't I'm not sure if that answers your question. Yeah, no, it's not about what you thought. Um but uh yeah. You're very creative, very explorative um process. Well, so then I'm curious, like, you know, because now it's been I I don't know what year you went through your training, what five years ago or something or ish, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so you know, you're you're no you're by no you you you you weren't new to tremoring to begin with, and you're definitely not new to TRE now. So what how do you use it now? Like, um, do you is it like you know, back in the before you learned TRE, you tremored almost any day, every day, every way, because it came in naturally in kind in connection to your meditation practice. Um now you you've also learned a lot about TRE, you facilitate with others. What's how does it how do you currently work with it? What is it sometimes just coming up um organically like it used to be? Are you sometimes doing more of an intentional practice? Uh how what what's tremoring like for you at this this day and age? It's it's um it's a pro process that is constantly evolving, and um there is a beautiful practice out there called continuum. I'm not sure if you've heard of that. I'm familiar with that. Very cool work, yeah. Love love continuum as well. But um I I love the word continuum because it says continuum. It's a continuous process. So what I've what I have um worked out over the years is that this process, the not just tremoring, but the stretching and the pandiculation is available to us continuously. So if uh the moment we stop thinking about you know practical logical things, that pro I mean it's there all the time, but the moment we even a little bit stop, stop, the process is there. So as I'm walking, for example, I could be walking in a shopping center, or I could be walking on the street. I am instantly aware of my body and how my body actually wants to move. So does it want to particulate this way, does it want to stretch that way, uh, does it want to walk differently? Uh my foot might want to do something different. Is there a shake as well? It could be in the neck, it could be in the face, it could be anywhere. So for me at the moment, this um process is growing and growing and growing in all aspects of life. I'm sit I'm standing and talking to somebody and I'll be shaking and tremoring, or just you know, because I'm relaxed and it's a beautiful place. Uh I'm waiting at the bus stop or in line at the supermarket, my body will actually shake and tremor. And it's not because I'm necessarily tense, but it's because it feels at home. It feels at home to be like that. It's not like I'm doing it because uh there's a problem here, it's more I'm doing it because this is what feels right. Um on the bus, it's amazing. Uh, on the train, it's amazing. While I'm driving, it's happening. Even while jogging, this process is there for me, and it's actually training me how to jog properly and how to walk properly sometimes. So these spontaneous movements are actually, I see them, uh they are already part of that potentiality for us, and it's really the human being that it's learning from the the body, how it actually moves. The body already has all the movements available, and it's really the thinking mind that actually is learning from what the body is capable of. So for me now it's a process of hey body, teach me how do I walk properly or how I swim actually. I went swimming the other day and um I my my back, I don't do, I'm not a swimmer, but I know that in the past when I did laps, my back would be pretty much straight. My spine would be straight and my arms would move and my legs would move, but the spine would be predominantly straight, and now my spine is doing this naturally. Yeah, and and it's showing me, and even the kicks in the feet are different because if you actually pay attention, the body knows what to do, it knows how to operate in that space. Uh, it already has that capacity or that potential available. And if we listen to it, it actually shows us the best way, also the best way for the individual at that point in time, because if they have traumas or they have contractions or injuries, the body will actually work with that. So you can't do your full range of movement, but it'll show you what's the best range of movement for you today. Yeah. So if you listen into that, even if you're injured, the body will actually respond. So it's affecting all, not affecting, it's it's integrating in all aspects of my life, Alex. It's uh while I'm sitting down, while I'm reading a book, if I'm watching TV, it there's always the potential for that shaking or autogenic movement to happen. Yeah. Have the have the people who are close to you, you know, your friends and loved ones, like have they got have they gotten because my feeling is that you know you used to be kind of private with your shaking, and now you're you're you're you you you let the autogenic movement find it find you when uh in all kinds of situations, which is which is beautiful. But I'm wondering if you do you ever have to explain yourself or do your do your friends and loved ones uh know this about you? So how how how has that developed over time? A lot of people are resistant, you know, still to it. And uh even my wife, you know, she she used to, even in the first seven years when I would um shake, she used to sometimes catch me out shaking, you know, but she never said anything, she never questioned what I was doing, you know, and my neck could be going off like crazy. Right. So she doesn't have a natural interest in it. And she she can uptaught her TRE, so she can easily tremor. Sure. My kids have learned TRE, my mother has learnt it. Other other people in the family have learned it, but they don't take to it like I do. I mean, I I was really invested in it, I was really curious, and I'm finding that a lot of people don't have that curiosity and that passion for it. And um, it's still odd to people because their body moves in a way that they don't actually, you know, command. Yeah. So I think as much as you know, even being a TRE practitioner and having all this knowledge and understanding and talking to people, even people in my family still really cautious and resistant to it. My kids are more open. Oh, that's cool. Well, you meant you mentioned but when we were talking before we recorded with your two parents that that both of them recognized that you know the they had they knew about this to some extent. There was some that it wasn't it wasn't totally unfamiliar to them. I mean, and I perhaps you don't want to say anything about your parents here, but I can, I can. Yeah, yeah. It it's beautiful actually, because yes, uh as I mentioned to you before, my my mother was one of my volunteers when I was practicing TRE. And after the first session, she said, Look, my body's been trying to do this for years, and and for her, it was in the neck and shoulders, you know. It wanted to move. And she thought she had Parkinson's, so she would uh consciously contract against the tremor. So you can imagine that the body is stressed, wants to release, so that's a uh a big energy, a big force that wants to come out of the body, and then the person is holding it back. So then there's there's that jarring effect, you know. Uh she would hold against the the tremors, you know, out of fear of Parkinson's. But I wonder, you know, at some point if that's how Parkinson actually comes up, you know, the body's naturally trying to release stress, the individual is holding it back to the point where perhaps you know it it does some jarring process where it it stays stuck in that. So I wonder. And my father who who witnessed the first TRE session with my mum then piped up and said, you know, my body does that as well. And I thought, what your body does. I've been doing it for seven years in secret, and your body does it, and you know, we we don't talk about this stuff. And for the listeners, um my father sometimes says vertigo, and as far as I understand, vertigo is stress-related. You know, the the more stress in your life, the vertigo kind of uh intensifies. And when I question him, in his case, when the vertigo gets really intense, he can no longer uh handle it. He actually has to lie down in bed. So literally, vertigo puts him on his backside. And then when he's in bed, to me that that then he's in a state of surrender because he's he's given up, he he he can no longer tolerate, there's nothing else he can do. So technically, to me, his his mind surrenders, and in that moment of surrender, his body now has the opportunity to do what it wants, what it needs to do, which is to shake off that stress. And then he shakes, he says he shakes in bed, and then the vertigo goes away or or considerably dissipates, and then he's fine. Amazing. Um he's not interested in TR. I was gonna say, but so he never so he never he hasn't, despite all of that, he did he didn't want to learn of this from you. That's right. Amazing. Yeah. So uh these are the challenges that I have come across. You know, before it was secret, now it's not secret for me, and but people are kind of like, no, even though they do it, they they don't want to know about it. And it's uh right. I was in a yeah, I was in a courthouse like uh a year ago with with a client. Um, I did a bit of mental health support work. I took a client to the courthouse, and three-quarters of a courthouse was shaking. Legs, arms, everything. You know, they're sitting there in the room waiting to to have their hearing or whatever it is. And I'm sitting there watching these people, most of them, yeah, three quarters at least were were shaking. And I can recognize that I see it straight away. And sure, you know. So then what do I do? I think, well, I'm I'm at home here, so I I let I let go as well. I was standing up and I was like Getting myself shaken, you know, having a good time thinking nobody's gonna judge me here because they're all doing it. They probably they probably think I'm stressed out, or but I was actually relaxed and enjoying myself, and this is perfect. Right. So interesting. If you want to shake in public, go to a courthouse. Go to a courthouse. You'll blend in, you'll be like, fine. One of the crowd. That's great. Um I wonder if you could share about your practice because you know you mentioned you you you wanted to learn, and so you went through the practitioner training, not necessarily thinking you would you would end up uh doing a lot of facilitation or any or whatever, but um I think that's changed. I think you do a lot of facilitation. Maybe you could share what what created that pivot for you and maybe share a little bit about who you enjoy working with, who do you support, what what have you learned by being a supporter for others, you know, different than what you've learned through your own uh individual practice? Yes, so I I did I I signed up to the TRE course, practitioner course, and I did a weekend you know uh retreat, and that was fine. And then it didn't dawn on me that now from now on it's pretty much practical. You know, so the TRE course is very practical. And on my first session with somebody, I I it struck me that I actually have nothing to offer here. I am not a psychologist, I'm not a counselor, I'm not a physiotherapist or anything like that. And here's the person in front of me potentially going and and um uh releasing some of their traumas. And if something goes you know happens for them, what what do I do? Because I I've got nothing. I'm I'm not a you know, but fortunately for me, I think that's when when um intuition started to come in or presence because I was a meditator, so the idea was to be present with the person in front of you, come from a place of not knowing and not judging and not labeling, but come from a place of not knowing. And then I noticed that I started sensing within myself what the other person was going through. So if their chest was contracting, my chest was contracting, or if there was a pain in their ear, I would feel the pain in my ear. And and that kind of uh so that's where my intuition started to really come in. And so I could point to that person, okay, relax your chest, not because of the visual cues. So in TRE we learn visual cues, yeah, but because of the sensing of the other person. There was one individual who actually disassociated in in the practice, and I disassociated, I started thinking about other things, yeah, and that's when I realized, oh, I was picking up a disassociation from them. Sure. So then I became a lot more present. What's going on in my body? Because what's going on in my body is going on in in the person in front of me as well. Yeah. And then how do I how do I respond to that? Well, I can bring them back, say, hey, come back, put your legs down, you know, where are you right now? So I can give visual instruction or verbal instruction. I might give some physical instruction, you know, crunch or do do whatever. But but intuitive stuff started to come in more and more. And um, so I thought, okay, if I felt a pain in someone's shoulder, okay, I would touch the shoulder and then the shoulder would release, relax, and um, yeah. I became aware not to do that in the first couple of sessions for a person so that they can really integrate with the person. Kind of connect to themselves. Connect with that, and and to understand that this is their own process, not not mine. It's not Gabriel that's doing this. But more and more that intuition started to grow. And then people I had I had the fortune of working with uh in the early days with a couple of Reiki masters, and they said to me, Well, you're doing Reiki on me, Gabriel, right now. So I did I didn't know. I was Reiki trained, but I had not utilized Reiki for for about eight years, you know. And uh people were saying, You're doing Reiki on me right now. And I thought, really? And then um, because of that, I actually went and completed my Reiki 2 and Reiki 3 course to honor the process and to have that capacity there if it's needed. So um becoming a facilitator in TRE actually opened up my intuition. And then what really struck me is that TRE is so simple and but so powerful. It pretty much worked for every single person that I was practicing with. And I wasn't very competent in the beginning, and it was still working. So I thought this is magic, like a process like this, even with someone like me who's in the early days, and it still works for every individual. It's such a phenomenal what Dr. David Baselli has done is phenomenal. It's so it's so effective, I think. And uh that gave me courage to work with the process, and um the intuitive aspect also kind of said to me, This is where where you're meant to be. So uh this feels like home facilitating TRE sessions and being intuitive, being present, allowing Reiki to flow. This is your home, Gabriel, with another human being. So it kind of yeah, it kind of showed me the way rather, and it said, This is where you are. And a similar thing happened with group sessions, you know, when when we had to do group sessions, I was not really interested in group sessions because I was having fun one-on-one, and I thought that I'm never gonna have that much fun in a group session. But then I realized the group sessions, there's a there's a beauty in the group sessions as well, and um I started incorporating instead of the leading exercises, I started incorporating salsa, for example, as a warm-up. Because I noticed I was I was a salsa dancer in in in the past, you know, and um what what struck me actually after learning TRE and all the somatic work, I would go to a salsa place and I noticed that the the dancers who are like the good dancers who are natural dancers, you notice them moving their shoulders, and you think, this is what we need to do in in TRE as well, the shoulders need to open up. Right. And then they would like if they dance properly, like their diaphragm would actually move. And you think, this is this is perfect for TRE. And then you look at their hips, and they know the ones who are doing all it's like, oh, their hips are very loose and relaxed. And if we incorporate a little bit of this of this as a warm-up, then when we go to tremor, yeah, um, you know, those pl those parts of the body are already a little bit more loose, and uh the music actually is is beautiful because it's it salsa is a very rich kind of music and engaging, and uh it it instigates something else in us. So then when we tremor, we don't have to tremor from a place of trauma, we can tr tremor from a place of um fun and excitement and freedom and expression. Oh my gosh, I'm getting an amazing idea. I'm gonna put you on the spot right now because, okay, because you know, in our our neurogenic integration community, you know, we do workshops and things, and and and part of the whole theme of you know, the I would say in a a nutshell version of the neurogenic integration uh community that we've developed is it's mostly for it's people who already know tremoring. I mean, people can learn tremoring if they come through. We have that kind of content, but primarily it's a group of people who who have been tremoring for a long time, and and uh uh a a large focus for the workshops that we do is around integrations. And so it's looking at um uh uh doing qigong and um and um and tremoring, doing music and tremoring, breath work and tremoring. I do a lot of Feldenkrais movement work and tremoring. Anyway, so what I'm but what I have never done myself and I want to do is I want to experience salsa dancing as as a as a warm-up or as a as a or in connection or combination with tremoring. So now, this is where I'm gonna put you on the spot. I wonder if you would if you might consider uh leading a group like this for our our program. We you don't have to answer right now, but if you if you choose to, we would love to we I'd love to see that in action. So anyway, keep going. No, I would definitely consider that. I I ended up doing group sessions. Uh uh currently I'm not doing a lot, but uh I experimented yeah with these things, even uh with a singing ball, you know, ringing a singing ball in the beginning of the session. So that was the warm-up, no physical warm-up, just um I I I learned this from Ecartolet technique where you um you ring a bell or a singing ball and you listen to the sound of the singing ball until it fades. And the more you have to listen to it, the more presence is required of you. As the sound fades, more and more presence is required of you. And when the sound finally fades, uh what you're left with is presence. So I was ringing that for three times before a session and getting people to follow the sound and become deeper and deeper more present. And then we actually shook from that perspective, and people found that really valuable because again it was a different entry point. They were coming into the shaking process from a very present and still sort of aspect. But yes, salsa or it doesn't have to be salsa, but any music that is engaging and gets you moving. So we can start up with salsa as a warm-up, and then we can play salsa while people are shaking because the music is very rich and it can travel through your body, and then you can feel how that music impacts your body. What does it evoke in your body? It's not always trauma, it can be joy, and then anything that is against that joy is gonna shake off, basically. That's the way I see it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, cool. Oh, it'd be fun. It'd be fun, Alex, to do this outside. Right. Good. Well, we can do well, yeah, all of the above. Um, well, I guess that leads me to another question, which is um, you know, what have you learned as you've you know, yeah, what have you learned from other other practitioners, or even like, you know, one of the ways I connected to you is through um Dr. Keith Motz, who's who also came to Tremoring not through TRE, but through his own uh process. And you know, he he has a community that and where he teaches about tremor and therapeutic tremoring through the shaking medicine community. Um I just interviewed him a few weeks ago, and he's gonna be doing a workshop um uh for us next week or two weeks from now, something like that. But but so I know I know you you know you've been you've been interviewed by him. Um but yeah, so who who have you connected with in ways that have been useful for your own learning or made you feel that you're part of a a community of of explorers, tremorers. I'm just curious, yeah. Definitely, Dr. Keith Motes. Um, because what I found uh initially when I started practicing TRE that I would evolve from the initial five positions. Yeah. And then when I looked at Dr. Keith Motes, I thought, oh wow, yeah, he he's doing that because he's using yoga positions and qigong positions. And I also know that uh in shaking medicine they use music a fair bit to start off to as the warm-up, and uh you voluntarily shake initially to the music and then eventually you let go. So I saw that Dr. Keith Motes was utilizing music as part of the process, and that really appealed to me as well. And it felt natural because I was doing that as well. So uh it was fantastic to see that someone else was actually incorporating the tremors in in different ways. Um I've also come across a group of shakers, um, which is Ratu Bagus. Ratu Bag, have you heard of Ratu Bagus? He was like a spiritual person, I think, in Bali, and he has a retreat in Bali there. I think Dr. Keith might sometimes goes to that retreat. Okay. Um and he would shake. He he I I cannot remember the name of it, but it's um something meditation, you know, some some type of meditation he calls it, but it's literally shaking, and they shake for one and a half hours, three times a day. Wow as part of the shaking, and it's really encouraging people to let go and to shake and to do all sorts of things. So I have discovered a group here in Brisbane uh that does a bit of that, and um I love it because I facilitate a lot, but to be in a in a situation where I don't facilitate and I'm part of a group session is really invaluable and it's really fun. So uh I think we really need these group sessions around the world so that people can get involved and participate, and uh it's so much fun, and it provides for that creativity as well because different people will bring different things to the table, to the circle. Um, so um shaking medicine for sure, Ratu Bagu's shaking. I haven't gotten much into the Japanese form, um Sei Tai Katsugen undo. Yeah, but even watching the person um move and and shake is inspirational, and my body can kind of look at it and resonate, and then it can almost go with the same kind of flow because I think there's a recognition when when we shake, uh when we get into these ortogenic movements, there's really a recognition of our true nature and and a non non-uh contracted true nature. So it feels, I think, it feels natural. Oh wow, if if Alex moves that way, maybe my body resonates with that and then it wants to move that way because Alex is showing me another potentiality. So it's not about copying you, of course, and forcing myself to move like you because that that doesn't work. But it's just recognizing your own movement. Yeah, and does that does that apply to me as well? So I think I think it's beautiful that there are all these practices around the world, you know, the cut say, katsu, genondo, shaking medicine, tr, ratu bagus, then there is the um shamanic people in in Africa. Sure. And um I think it's it's part of the fabric of reality. This vibration, this movement is not it, it's is the fabric. So then it's bound to come up a lot, and it's bound to come up in lots of ways. It's not restricted to this or that, it's very much of the fabric, which um so it's there for us in um I I actually experienced uh shaking also in in um uh an anxiety attack. Um so it was there for me then. I wasn't shaking. This is maybe 12 years ago either before I I had the shaking practice at all, but um it was there for me then as well, like it was for my parents, you know, in in their time of need. So it's very much part of the fabric and in it intercalates into everything. Yeah, yeah, amazing. Totally amazing. Um yeah, it's sort of a never, never-endingly fascinating in my in my experience. Um maybe one one more one more question, curiosity from me, and then we may we that and then we'll see if there's anything still alive for you in this conversation. Um it's uh it's about the Reiki, the into the integration of Reiki, because I always find it so fascinating when you know, part of my work as a TRE person, but also, you know, I do some uh one of one of the additional things I do is I teach tremoring, not not uh so I train people in TRE, yes, but I also uh train uh increasingly train bodyworkers in about tremoring. And so they don't become TRE certified people, but I I I I work with bodyworkers and I say you already know about tremoring, I bet, because I bet you see it sometimes. And and then also I don't need to actually do that much to show you how to work with it. I just need to show you that we can start it, and I and I need to show you that you, as a body worker, you have lots of tools um to support and be connected to this person's tremoring experience. So so this is like uh uh one of the one of the activities that I do. And so it's it's made me very interested in how different um touch modalities uh you know, some some some massage is doing deep tissue work, some massage is hands-on, it's it's it's listen what I call listening touch, listening to the to the body. Um massage or or maybe more energy work is either hands-on or hands-off, but it's a but what the practitioner is attending to is something different. There, they're maybe uh they're they're lensed, maybe attuning to energetic flow. And and I actually haven't, I love Reiki, I've received it. I haven't, I I myself haven't actually trained in it. I've trained in other um energy medicine work, um, but I haven't done a formal Reiki training, but I've received it, and I and uh it's awesome. But I've never actually interviewed in detail a TRE person about how how it is that Reiki, what happens when Reiki connects to somebody tremoring. Um and so I wonder if you could just share a little bit uh from your experience of integrating Reiki. And I liked how you shared, you might not do that in the beginning, so you want people to be clear about what their tremoring is, but then as time goes on, you can offer this as a as a type of um additional support. I would love to hear how you experience and describe this. Well, I think with with all practitioners, all bodyworkers, um if we come from a regulated nervous system, so even before Reiki, right? But our nervous system is more regulated, more calm, more clear. So when another body comes into that field, they can sense that. They can sense, ah, it's safe to be with Gabriel here, it's safe to be with Alex. I don't they consciously don't know that, but their body understands that it feels safe to be with Alex. And then as soon as they feel safe, they might actually immediately start releasing. So I've heard of different practitioners, even kinesiologists, you know, that there's a kinesiologist that obviously has done a lot of work on themselves. Like these these are people that firstly do work on themselves, right? So their nervous system is much more regulated, and then a client comes in, the client's system picks that up and says, I'm safe and I'm gonna let go. Because the first, I guess the first principle of TRE is safety, right? We can only tremor when we feel safe to do so. So in the presence of a practitioner of a body worker, there's this safety, there's felt safety. So then the person might start releasing straight away. And I've heard that many times. I actually did uh sessions with a kinesiologist because she wanted to show all the other kinesiologists that this happens because it happened for her a lot, and she didn't understand why. So she came to the TRE session. In Reiki, um, the individual has to be clear because as a Reiki practitioner, you are actually a vessel for the energy to come through you and to the other person. So you have to be present, you have to be clear, you have to be humble in that space, so you're not egoic. So that in itself is a good thing. It's very relaxing for the other person, and then the energy flows through, and the energy is according to the client's needs, their their needs according to their higher good. So it's never what Gabrielle thinks the other person needs, because then I would interfere with that. Yeah, so so then I have to remain again, I have to be present, I have to be alert because the energy is coming through, and I have to direct it where it's telling me to go. So it might go to someone's head, someone's shoulders. So I work very intuitively like that. And then there's a direct communication with that person. That person has not verbally said anything to me, yet I'm touching a part of their body that really needs it, and there's a recognition there. Wow, this Reiki is going exactly where I need it, or maybe I didn't even know I needed it here. And but now that Gabriel's hands are there, oh wow, that that feels good. So um it creates that uh sense of, I think through Reiki, it creates that sense of safety as well, and then the individual can can release as well. If the individual doesn't know TRE, they might they may be resistant to that because they don't understand the process of shaking. So quite often if I'm doing TRE on some uh sorry, qu if I'm doing Reiki on somebody who hasn't done TRE before, I can actually feel their body wanting to move, wanting to shake or wanting to unfold. And I am now at the point where I can I used to see it in my in my mind's eye, but now I can see it on their body. I can actually see how the body actually wants to move. Maybe I'm seeing the energy body or somehow, but I'm seeing the direction that the body wants to flow and wants to go in. So then I may suggest to the person, I feel your spine moving left and right here or there. If if it's natural for you, let it happen. So I try to coach them through that. Reiki is coming through, but what I'm noticing is that they're not letting go. Um, so quite often people can remain stiff while they're while they're receiving Reiki because then they're not open to that movement, to that flow. Right. So I think TRE and Reiki go together so well. And I have I have one or two clients that come and see me for Reiki, but they do TRE. So on the table, they shake pretty much the whole time. So they they don't need a TRE session with me because their body's already doing that. They know what to do with it. Yeah, yeah. They can let go. So um it's uh multi, is it multimodality, a multimodality approach? TRE and Reiki together. Yeah. So Reiki is providing the the individual with an energy of of some sort, something that they need. It could be inside, it could be, it could be warmth, it could be something loving or compassionate, but then their body needs to do something with it as well. It's part of the integration, right? So TRE is uh the neurogenic tremor is a part of integrating the healing that you are receiving. So that's why I find that the two are amazing together. And there's no one modality that kind of Does everything. It's more like uh I'm I'm in even into massage. So I know you spoke with um Dr. Keith Motz about Zentai Shiatsu. So a lot of the movements sometimes that I do with a person, I just feel okay, they're shaking, they're tremoring, but I feel like I need to do this to the person, stretch their leg or do a little bit of massage. And I'm not a massage person, I'm not a right, but it it naturally comes through. And uh very much it's really what does the person need at this point in time what while they're in front of me? Do they need silence? Do they need a certain word? Do they need Reiki? I do light language as well, so sometimes it's light language that can come through. So then I'll I'll tell the person, are you okay with some light language? It seems to be coming through right now. And uh I I don't know what that I don't know what that means. So like so you describe like, yeah, can you like if you if I was your client and you said, Are you okay with light language right now? I wouldn't know what you what what you were going to do or say or yeah. Yeah, so so you might ask that. And light language is um the way I understood light language initially is speaking in tongues. Ah, okay. Sometimes people speak in tongues, but I actually did a light language course and I realized that um light language is speaking in tongues, it's also can be humming. Okay, can be written. So sometimes people light language is actually written symbols. I see. And they don't seem to make any sense, but but there is a something behind that. Right. And sometimes light language is actually um just physical like movements. Okay, right? And and there's an energy that's similar to Reiki. It's an energy that sort of comes through and it does its own thing. So I see. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if someone's in front of me, like it might be, oh Alex, it feels like it with light language here. Are you okay with that? Or or Reiki. But sometimes it happens, you know, spontaneously, like Reiki. I don't even know I'm doing it, and people say, Yeah, I can feel the heat in your arms, and yeah, you know, you're you're doing something. Yeah, but I am basically open to the person's system, and I kind of feel that the more variety I have, the better for the person. Because sometimes you need to stand back, okay, like let the person do their own thing. But if if I am here, what is it that I have to provide? What is the person needs? Right, cool. So it's being open to that. Um, but I I feel that a person who knows TRE is much more open to receiving the other modalities. So it's a really critical point. So even massage, if if you do TRE and someone's massaging you and you feel like your body wants to release and move, let it on the massage table because it means a massage and your body's now working in unison and doing their things. Yeah. Well, that's that's exactly how you know I came to this through through as a as a bodywork person, and and this was exactly the conversation I had with Emmeline, which was that we said, boy, if you're a bodyworker, it is very much in your best interest to get your people, teach them TRE and get them tremoring, because the people that you're working with are way less likely to just be like a pile of bricks or concrete. Like, like, like people, they their bodies know what to do. They know how to, their muscles know how to relax, they know how to allow reorganization to occur. Um, and the the the experience of doing massage or body work on somebody who a system that knows spontaneous movement and tremoring versus a system that doesn't know it yet, it's a it's a night and day kind of an experience. So so I very much resonate with what you're sharing. And and even after the session, so during the session, you can allow your body to respond. But I find if I get you know some sort of chiropractic adjustment done or or any even kinesiology afterwards, I'll go home and my body actually wants to explore the new possibilities because the practitioner has opened something in in myself through massage or through through Reiki or whatever it is, and now it's part of the integration process. The shaking is there not only for releasing trauma, but for integrating the new body. So it's phenomenal as a practice after receiving healing. Wonderful. Wow, so cool. All right. So if somebody wants, if somebody listening wanted to know more, uh, wanted to find you, either as maybe a client or um or the groups that you do, what what's well what's the best? I mean, uh of course I'll get all of your information and put it into the the show notes and this and that. But yeah, how can how do how can people find you? Well, I have a website and the website is gabrielcasab.com, so it's very simple. And they can go there and they can email me there or they can look at my social media accounts and follow me there if they would like to. Yeah. Do you do and do you do online and in-person work? I I'm actually starting to do a little bit of online work. Uh I prefer in-person, one-on-one, or um group sessions. But um yes, I have started last year doing a couple of uh online workshops as well. And that is interesting. It's another expansion. Yeah. Very cool. Well, Gabriel, this has been just a complete pleasure to hear your story and the evolutions and and how where this has led you. It's really been inspiring to to to listen to how well you follow you have followed a path that has been completely um authentic and organic for you. And you have had the you have had the the curiosity and the wisdom to just and and and I think the humility to just keep keep learning and seeing what's next. So um I I've learned a lot just hearing your your description. Oh, thank you, Alex. It's been a real pleasure. I really enjoyed this interview. And hopefully people see something in these talks and kind of makes them curious, like it it's made me curious to give it a try and uh to understand that it's not all you know serious stuff, but you know, it's not it's it's fine. It's not all trauma, and yeah, it's not all trauma, and there is that component, so we have to respect it. But um uh there is the other side as well, which the same process can give us joy and happiness, creativity and fun. Yeah, wonderful. All right, well it's I'll stop the recording here. Thank you. Thank you, Alex. That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drawing. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people interested in this transformative work. And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.