E22 - Neurogenic Tremoring as a Dynamic Superpower for Kids with Vera Live, Špela Potočnik & Katja Jarc

Most people meet Neurogenic Tremoring through trauma work. This conversation asks a different question: what if kids learned it first — as a built-in resilience skill, before the world ever tells them something is wrong?

In this episode, Alex sits down with three women working at the frontier of that idea — Vera Live, Špela Potočnik, and Katja Jarc — to trace how Neurogenic Tremoring is being reframed for youth: why nervous system regulation has been “kept behind the clinical wall”; how Vera co-developed the book Dynamic Superpower: Inner Strength for Kids & Teens with TRE® creator Dr. David Berceli; and how Špela and Katja piloted a school curriculum in Slovenia where five to seven minutes of guided tremoring, twice a week, began changing how teenage students slept, focused, and felt in their own bodies. Along the way: the science stations that teach kids about the vagus nerve and interoception, why a safe relationship matters more than a perfect protocol, and how the body becomes a friend rather than a problem to fix.

Vera Live co-founded Dynamic Superpower with Dr. David Berceli to bring the body’s natural tremoring reflex to kids and teens as a proactive resilience tool, not a clinical intervention. A PE teacher, yoga trainer, and certified TRE® provider, she works to equip the adults in children’s lives to pass on nervous system training safely. Find the work at https://www.reflexomobility.org

Špela Potočnik is a Slovenian youth counselor, social pedagogue, and school counselor with nearly 20 years in schools, a certified TRE® provider, and one of two pilot developers behind the Slovenia study. She collaborates with the Intigrum Institute and advocates for burnout prevention in schools.

Katja Jarc is a primary school teacher, marriage and family therapist, gestalt counselor, arts therapies specialist, and certified TRE® provider — the second Slovenia pilot developer. Through her practice, Manus Katja Jarc, she has integrated body-oriented and dance-movement work for over 13 years, and co-led the 2024 “TRE with Kids” training in Amsterdam with Vera.

⏱ KEY HIGHLIGHTS

• 0:00 Welcome & introductions 
• 6:04 The problem: regulation “kept behind the clinical wall” 
• 6:42 Giving youth agency: “the body is really your best friend” 
• 8:28 How the name “dynamic superpower” came to be 
• 10:07 Špela on test anxiety, panic attacks, and the missing body piece 
• 14:23 Adapting tremoring for kids — toys, play, and safety 
• 15:52 The book as a manual, not just a story 
• 20:20 Science stations: three brains, the vagus nerve, interoception 
• 22:17 A 10-year-old reads it cold — and tremors on their own 
• 25:51 A mother, a doctor, and her daughter’s aha moment 
• 28:53 Lifting the stigma: “this is your power” 
• 33:53 Inside the Slovenia pilot: how it began 
• 35:20 Five to seven minutes, twice a week 
• 43:14 Špela’s surprise: how little tremoring is enough 4
• 5:10 The real key — a safe relationship 
• 50:01 What’s next: educational programs & specialized guides
•  57:14 Closing reflections: “pay attention, become astonished”

🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS

Connect with the guests — Reflexive Mobility Academy (Vera Live): https://www.reflexomobility.org · Špela Potočnik: https://www.mojesledi.com · Katja Jarc: practice MANUS. The Slovenia pilot and the family’s TRE® videos with Dr. Berceli are linked in the internal notes below.

Also mentioned: Dr. David Berceli (creator of TRE®), Linnea Gillen, Dr. Lisa Glenk, the Intigrum Institute, and the International Baccalaureate framework.

Continue your journey with Neurogenic Integration 🔗 Join our live weekly classes → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#classes 🎓 Explore our Online TRE® Certification → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#cert

📍 FIND US ONLINE

Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/ Instagram: @neurogenicintegration

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

And I am Sebia Sung Shields. Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being.

SPEAKER_05 0:42

So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. All right, welcome everybody to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast. I'm Alex Green, and I'm excited to sit down and have a conversation with three uh women today in the TRE field, uh Vera Live, Spile Potochnik, and Katya Yartz. And it's very a project that I've been following for uh quite some time, and I'll just share a little bit of the details about what we'll be talking about in today's conversation, and then we'll jump right into the subject matter. But basically, uh Vera Spila and Katya have been working on bringing TRE to youth populations in school settings and in some cases in after school uh sports uh curriculums. And uh the project began with Vera uh co-authoring a book uh with uh input from Dr. Braseli, um, and we'll talk quite a bit about the book itself here today. Uh and then in addition, uh uh Spila, Katya, and Vera have worked on piloting a curriculum for um students uh in Slovenia and with excellent results for that initial um pilot project. And um now there's continued uh energy towards extending this curriculum. And um it's a great name. I love the name. The Reflexo Mobility Academy is taking this uh TRE work to youth. Um and also additionally, there's the the name Dynamic Superpower, which is um a title used especially with some of the younger students. And so we'll talk a little bit about this, how they are working to make TRE understandable and relatable to uh children. So I I've I've been lucky to be involved a bit as an advisor for the project, and I've been excited to see how it's been developing. And I thought it would be very cool just to have a conversation about um how this got underway, the things that they're learning working with youth, and what direction uh this project is heading. So I'm just gonna start with some introductions uh for each of the three uh my three guests, and then of course we'll jump into some um discussion and conversation with everybody. Um so starting with Vera, Vera Live co-founded Dynamic Superpower with Dr. Braselli, as I mentioned, um, to bring the body's natural shaking reflex to children and teens as a proactive resilience tool, not as a clinical intervention. Uh as a PE teacher, a yoga trainer, and a mother of three with a background in finance and business, Vera came to TRE work herself after a near-death experience that showed her firsthand what a well-trained nervous system can do. Hopefully, we'll hear a little bit about that maybe. Um, I didn't even know that. Um, she is, of course, a TR a certified TRE provider and has been involved with global training programs. And currently her mission is equipping adults who are work with youth to be knowledgeable and skillful at passing on nervous system uh training and uh TRE training to youth. So that's uh Vera. Vera, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

Very good. And uh we also have Spila Potočnik, um is a Slovenian youth counselor and social pedagogue, also a certified TRE provider, and one of the two pilot developers behind the Slovenia study that I mentioned from last year. Um she works as a school counselor and collaborates with the Integram Institute and also hosts her own podcast on the TRE method. I'll have to watch that probably with some translation. Um, she's also a mother of four and a vocal advocate for burnout prevention as part of how schools care for both staff and students. So welcome, Spila, to the show. Um, and uh last but not least, we have Katya Yarts, um, who is a primary school teacher, marriage, and family therapist, uh gestalt counselor and trainer, and a specialist in arts therapies. She's also a certified TRE provider and the uh second pilot developer for the Slovenia pilot project. She runs her own private practice, Manus Katya Yarts, where for over 13 years she has integrated body-oriented and dance movement approaches into her work with individuals, families, uh couples, and adolescents. Uh, in November of 2024, she co-led the TRE with kids training in Amsterdam along with Vera, and she brings clinical and somatic depth to this trio. She lives with her husband and their two sons, aged 11 and 14, and TRE is very much a part of their family life. Uh, her family has also participated in documenting their practice together with Dr. Briselli with several films that are available on YouTube. So, Katya, welcome to the conversation. Appreciate all three of you uh being here today.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 6:27

Um, just to sort of kick off a conversation, Vera, I wonder if we could start with you. What problem were you trying to address when you and Dr. Burselli uh first came up with the idea to develop the book? And what please also give us the title and and some some of the background of how this project got started.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

The problem uh that we realized is that the nervous system regulation was kept uh behind the clinical wall, and we wanted to move from uh therapeutic from trauma therapy intervention into uh mindfulness resilience training, which can be done regularly, and uh something that kids and youth are more open to. And our biggest passion uh through various conversations with Dr. Berselli was to give youth agency over their own nervous system and to reveal that the body is really your best friend and that it's equipped with this amazing mechanism to downregulate the nervous system. And um what really struck me was that once you uh slow down the psychological noise, then I think we can all see our own consciousness and we can also access this wisdom of the body. Um one of the biggest drivers was that in these days there's so much um social pressure, and there is so much pressure from the parents for the kids, and also social media is constantly trying to tell kids that there's something wrong with them and turning them into consumers. So uh what we wanted to do is to share how to downregulate the nervous system without or before the world tells the kids that they're broken. So that was uh the work, and um at first we used the traditional methods of explaining um how uh this is uh tension and trauma release and exercises and how to perform them. And of course, we've covered aspects of safety and self-regulation that were so important, but kids needed a slightly different approach, which is more um straightforward, and telling them that this is something already built in their body. So little by little the term evolved, which was dynamic superpower, and we had uh names like music of the body, um we had um different ways. Um inner power is what David Verselli really uh liked as a name that oh sorry, inner strength. It's um actually on the logo it says dynamic superpower, inner strength for kids and teens.

SPEAKER_05 9:51

Lovely. Yeah, I love the framing as uh as capacity building, resilience building, um uh proactive uh nervous system training, and that's something we'll touch upon uh maybe as we go into the book about a little bit more. Um, the analogy of strengthening our nervous system, analogous to strengthening our muscles and things like that. But yeah, so I love that reframe of um that for youth and kids, so much of this is about awareness and knowing the having that agency um to know about and actually to develop and strengthen and attend to their own autonomic nervous system. What a cool, what a cool direction. Um uh Spiela, I'm curious for you, you, um uh working in schools and also as a TRE provider, what um what did you feel was sort of the missing piece in terms of bringing nervous system awareness to youth? I wonder if you could share how you got involved with this idea.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

I work in school um for 20 years now, almost. And um I saw I'm seeing a lot uh of test anxiety, panic attacks, especially during COVID times. Many students students simply don't know or didn't know how to manage stress, and not just students, uh teachers are struggling as well. Well, um, in the school system, there is a strong emphasis on the mind, but often not enough attention is given to the body, um, only maybe in sports activity. And I think when we want to support young people, we need a more holistic approach. And this is our approach, I think it is holistic. And I see this also in my counseling work. Some students okay, need to be listened to, they need space to express themselves through talking, writing, maybe art or other creative ways. But um, there are also students who first need a body-based approach. Uh, they need to learn how to release tension, reconnect with their body, and unlock this um inner strength that we now call the dynamic superpower. So, yeah. Um so I'm I'm working with this neurogenic tremor in school since uh for 10 years now, and um now for three years we are um we are developing this new uh modality um which is based on theory.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

Very cool. What lovely. And um Katya, I'm curious for you in your therapy practice, yeah, because you've said you'd work with adults, families, children kind of across the whole lifespan. Um how did you become interested in appl bringing TRE to youth specifically?

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Yes, um in my therapy practice, I um I always see that even young people all or adults, they talk to me a lot, um, they tell me a lot of things, how they feel, but their bodies are still stuck in stress, anxiety. And um, so at the beginning, I first started like theory with my sons here at home, and it was like in a playful and very light manner, and it worked very good, and they're still doing it when they feel um stressed or when it's difficult to fall asleep. And then I started to bring uh this theory also in my therapy practices for adults or for youth, and or also some other body-based tools. And um, I saw that this was so strong and powerful that um this experience that they could feel their body much more was so intense, and all the therapies start growing. They could tell me more, they feel much more their body, and their system responds very quickly, they feel safe. And um I see that without using body and movement or um these tools, it's like something is missing in therapy. So um I am so glad that all this is possible, that um the bodies of all these people that come, they can feel themselves, they can express more, they can open their eyes and don't feel so much stress inside of their bodies.

SPEAKER_05 14:44

Have you found, Katya, that you have you uh not in school settings, but in the private therapy room, uh have you had to adjust TRE when you're working with younger people to to either explain it or to what what adjustments do you have to make working with young people in a in a one-on- in a in a therapy setting?

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Yeah, it really depends. If, for example, a family comes and they just want to um to have a TE session with their son or or so with their child, then I I I explained that it's very important that it's also some of the family members also there to know how is this going on. So, and then I made many different um exercises that feel more comfortable, that feel more safe, so that was playful. We also named the exercises that was fun. I I bring some toys, I bring some uh cars, so if they were younger children that they could play, and that was really funny, and they they really enjoyed it, and it was um like a playful time um that was really fun for them. And I see that through this, um, if you're open and and you can um you are not stuck in the practice like it should be, then um, and I think it's also that I worked with kids so many years. Uh it's much simpler also for me to um, as I worked in school and in kindergarten, that I can um just imagine some things and I can give them and invent something directly in the moment, what they need. And I think in the first place that I listen, what they need, and to to make the space that is safe.

SPEAKER_05 16:39

Cool. Very cool. Um Vera, I wonder if we could talk about the book specifically, and maybe you can even sh show a copy if you have it in front of you. Otherwise, we'll put up an image later. But um, yeah, tell us about the book. Who who's it written for? I mean, it's you know, my first impression was it's so creative. There's a s there's a story in there, maybe even two now. Um uh at least one of the stories comes from uh involves your own children. So uh but the but the book is not, you know, there's a section of it that's sort of story-based, but there's also explanations in there. So why don't you just kind of talk about um the final form of the book and yeah that's been what published for perhaps about six weeks now or something like that. So tell us tell us a little bit about the book.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Thank you, Alex. Before I go into details, I wanted to say a huge thank you to Spela and Katya because it would not be possible without your inspiration. Um TRE was taught at schools by Schpela for the longest time, from what the all the research that I've done regularly. It's also been approved by the ministry um as a burnout prevention for the teachers. And after school classes, um is where the kids were learning and were practicing regularly, which really um supported me. Uh and back almost five years ago now, where we started working with David Burselli on how to um find a modality that can be transferable to kids easier. Um, it was important to know that, oh, Katya was practicing with her own kids. It's out there, it's on YouTube, it's in in a light manner. So um thank you so much. I would really think of you as co-authors and um big supporters, because as we were evolving the stories, the input was so important. For example, uh something sounded too like a blame. Even every every single conversation within a story was revised. So Spela said, oh no, she should not say, you know, this thing, uh, because it can be interpreted this way. So we kept tweaking things in the stories to convey a lot of meaning. The stories are not just for the kids, they can be read both um in three ways. A person from six to twelve year old can read the story on their own, or it can be read to him or her by an adult, or also they can do it together or role-play it. Um, what idea was is to use a very strong uh framework of uh international baccalaureate. It is a nonprofit global organization that has one of the world's best pedagogical approaches for knowledge transfer. And the way it goes is that the student is encouraged to use inquiry pathway. So um that's why the book is not just a book, it's really a manual. And um the user can use different entry points. A person can read a book or go into the science stations, which is what we discussed in the very beginning, um, is that we have knowledge of the nervous system in a very um in a very personal way. So uh because I am a substitute teacher and uh uh sometimes at science classes and PE classes, we have to cover information about the body to learn about homeostasis and different systems. The book um is this one. This is the um it's the size that can be easily shared by a teacher in a classroom, for example, or by a parent. Um and uh it has a story in table of contents, it has a story, it has science pages or science corners stations, and then the actual activation process, how to activate your own superpower. And um too bad, uh I know Schbel also has the books, maybe you can cover about something, but the part that we as a group feel really strong about is are the science stations. So we actually um tell that the body has three brains, and we explain what the vagus nerve is, so that this is the whole idea is that we explain what interception is, and that is the ability of the vagus nerve to collect information from all the systems and send them to the brain. We tell here, and um as you may know, kids love math. Some of them do, some of them don't, but a lot of them like proof. So when we say, oh, vagus nerve. 80% of how it's built is actually to collect information from inside your body and bring that to the brain. And then I ask them, how much time do you actually spend listening to your own body? And usually both adults and kids will live in the external environment. We don't really pay attention to what the body's trying to tell us. And um in the story itself, it says that when you don't pay attention, you don't really make the wisest decisions. So I can definitely, because this is my baby, it's our baby, I can talk about this forever. But this is what I wanted to say. It has different entry points. It is meant to be addressing five different learning styles. It is based on International Baccalaureate Pedagogical Framework. And the biggest achievement is that it was given to a 10-year-old without any prior explanation. A 10-year-old read the story, especially the pages. And actually, this is where I have to mention Alex's input. A few of these pages were very carefully curated when it talks about safety. So this is a very important part of the book. It talks about self-regulation, safety. And Alex, um, you've helped really shape this well, explaining how to stop when you need to, how to ask for help. And also what's really important is that not all populations should be working through this framework. If you're working with more complex populations, uh it says right in here that please consider getting additional training or working with a certified provider directly. So we do provide quite a lot of emphasis on safety and self-regulation in through the book here. And then going back to my example, the 10-year-old took the book, looked at all of this images, looked at the photos of the real kids doing this process and experienced the tremor. Um, and eventually I had a session, I had a conversation with this um person, and uh was told that oh yeah, I'm surprised I was not shared this before. So I think this this is what we wanted to achieve. And the second bit, what we realized um you cannot just say youth. Um, usually there are different age groups based on developing um biology and psychological development. That's why we separated the material into six to twelve year olds and 12 up. This is still a draft, but the idea is that we would want to train our nervous system as a muscle. And um, it is very simple, has similar material, but talks to an older person with different needs.

SPEAKER_05 25:29

Cool, very cool. Um, so exciting. I love just seeing some of the pictures. I st I still remember, I think I I maybe it was two or three years ago when I first received a PDF, and I just sort of started smiling as I sort of was um reading the um uh you know, kind of how it was very um playfully uh introduced to kids. But it's been wonderful to see it evolve into its final form. And I think evolve is the right word because it truly has it has truly been a collaborative effort with um with all of your input and input from children and uh people who are in a sense testing the material. So it's been very cool to see how it um developed into the form that it has. I I'm curious for you, uh Katya and Spila, um with the book itself, have you introduced it to anyone? Like have you um are you finding it useful yet in your in your mission to uh help in increase awareness? Um I'm curious about how this is helped, what what you're experiencing so far.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Okay. Um I can tell that the during our pilot program, we used parts of this book uh before it was published uh in teacher training. So the teachers then went on uh to teach the girls in this school. We went to about their dynamic superpower. And well, these students shared their own knowledge and their experience also some and some content of the book with their parents. And I remember one mother, in particular, she was a doctor, and uh her daughter was struggling with panic attacks, and when the daughter experienced neurogenic tremoring, something clicked for her. She had an aha moment. And um this is also uh mentioned in one of the short videos we recorded in Instagram, um, where the girl explains that before this experience, uh she always associated the shaking with something negative. Uh, but then um through that book and explanation, she realized that for her, this uh could actually be a path toward healing. So it's really um yeah, good experience, uh nice to hear. And that girl uh slowly allowed herself to let go and to feel her body again. And according to the teachers, her mother also was really impressed by the effect. So the adolescents teach their parents about how neurogenic tremor um is good, and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:22

Cool, very cool. What about what about for you, Katya?

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Yeah, maybe then I can look maybe on some other things. For example, in my family, when I um uh show this book when we were still doing on it to my kids, uh they really like the stories about, and also they give me some ideas because uh yeah, one son is older than another, so also to tell which which is good and how they like it, the story, and what is good for teenagers, and maybe like some kind of stories for more younger children, and also they look uh they really like um these um ideas with the exercises because it was very simple. Um they said it's really simple, mom, how um how to use then this exercise. I just know how to do it like just by myself, and this was very useful also um to go further than with the book and everything. So um I think this is children are really um they just tell you what they mean. So I like this uh to tell you directly what's good or if something is not very cool.

SPEAKER_05 29:36

Well, I wonder um uh yeah, Vera, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

I I wanted to add something really important to what Katya just said, and this is what in a way united us three in the very, very beginning is that we greatly respect the roots of uh the neurogenic tremor being um rooted in uh David Bursella's uh life overseas and the how the way how it was originally brought to us through trauma work. Um, however, when we are sharing this with younger generation, it is sometimes important not to overload the meaning that it is connected to trauma and it is connected to therapy. And um, what we realized, and this is kind of the negative part, is that we realize that setting the intention in the beginning of the neurogenic practice is so important. This is one of the reasons even the name needed to be changed, and David Berselli was completely open to that. He's like, call it whatever, as long as it works, and as long as they hear the wisdom of their body and get all the benefits. The reason you walk into the room with kids and you tell them we're going to practice tension and trauma releasing exercises, they almost become frozen. Um, it doesn't really help with safety or with self-regulation when you present it through the lens of there is something wrong with your body. However, at the same time, we can normalize the fact that the life is not always green and happy, happy, la la la. We actually in the story tell that life will have its challenges. And if you train your nervous system, you'll be ready for challenges. And challenges are okay, and people learn from them and having some support systems. Um, I have to say special thanks to Linia Gillen as my TRE trainer because she shared the word fabric of connection. When people practice TRE together in their families or in groups, they start feeling that they're building this fabric of connection. And we needed to bring the stigma away from doing neurogenic tremor. This was probably quite difficult. The space has to be safe. Um, and I'm sure Alex will talk more about um different approaches of bringing this to different groups of adults, but the one of the important things that Katya mentioned was about changing the lens, making this about this is your power, this is your neurogenic tremor, your body was equipped with this, and this is how we can use this safely and responsibly. And yes, you do store trauma in your body, you do store tension in your body. However, this is one of the tools to work with that. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 32:53

Yeah, completely well said. I mean, I uh personally I believe even uh that is just very, very true for kids as you're naming it. And also for some adults. I mean, there's times when when, you know, saying tension and trauma release tonight that that can become a heavy framing uh even in adult settings. And so something I respect a lot about Dr. Briselli is uh is having a very flexible mindset. And as you said earlier, his primary uh emphasis is less about the name. It has to be this. He he has a very flexible attitude, which is that if you're working with athletes, perhaps you want to position it this way. If you're working with children, perhaps uh it needs to be discussed a little bit differently. And um personally I find that that's a um that uh that that flexibility is what I believe will make uh this uh continu all of us who are working to spread awareness around this uh through in lots of different areas, I think it's that flexibility that's gonna allow us to succeed. So yeah, I think that's a wonderful thing to emphasize. Yeah. Cool. I I wonder if we could talk a little bit about the pilot project, because honestly, I don't even I followed a little bit and I watched a few YouTube videos and and and um got excited, but I also feel like I don't know it all that well, I don't understand it all that well. So so this is maybe Spila and Katya could begin here. Maybe a little bit about the origins. How did this begin, the idea? How did you implement it? And of course, what are the results? Um to you know, so so uh um yeah, so just let's to tell us a bit about this pilot project.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Uh well, before the pilot program began, uh we first carried out a 16-hour training program just for educators during the school year. And it was opened uh for uh to different profiles of school staff, um, for principals, for PEEP teachers, for biology teachers, for all the stuff. And its purpose was um prevention from burnout prevention. And in this first program, we uh learned the basic uh basics of TRE method um and to explore its effects effects on themselves first. So later, after the completion of this program, we invited all of the educators to take part in a pilot. Firstly, uh we got a permission from David Berselli if we can do this, because we are not theory trainers, we are just providers, and he said, Yes, yes, you have my permission, and you said, Okay, let's start. And yeah, um, and our invitation was um yeah, to for educators to take part in a pilot in which natural tremoring would be included in 15 minutes of I don't know, physical education, maybe counseling, whatever. Um, we um put opened mindset for them, but later just two PE teachers from the same school, which was great, um, responded to our invitation. And um, each of them had a regular group of female female students, so we hope that there will be also boys in the future, and up um they guided um uh um those students um twice a week uh through this protocol that we um taught them. It was just five to seven minutes natural tremoring during um HPE um hour. So uh around 15 to 20 girls took part in this project. Uh the number um was uh different from week to week, to lesson to lesson, because the students' students were uh never forced to participate. Each time they were given a choice, so um they could join the guided training or take part in another physical um activity. Uh so these uh two PE teachers were also encouraged to continue their own theory process regularly. That this was um, I think that the basics that um um each time we gather together, we ask them how are they going with their own practice. So um this was also very important in our pilot. Um, so self-observation and keeping online journals, uh, we know that from our certification. Um, but also the students were encouraged that after each tremoring session they write um uh how they feel, um uh what the effects they have, um, and they could also ask us a question, um, me and Kat, Katia and me. Well, the whole process that I'm now describing uh lasted four months. Four months, and um this program included uh three Zoom meetings with the students, um no, with the teachers, three Zoom uh meetings with the teachers, and each meeting we worked through some content section um that Vera uh introduced, these um science stations, and we also set aside time for tremoring. Each time we also tremored, and then Katya and I also visited teachers at the school twice. The first time um we observed how they guided the group through the protocol and gave them some guidelines, and the second time um visit um took place at the end of the project when we also recorded this video that you maybe saw, Alex, and we spent time talking with students, evaluating the process and reflecting on the facts. And um, yeah, we also uh concluded this project by recording a podcast. It's now been for two years, I think. Recently I talked to a teacher and she said she told me that she um uh still is doing the same practice with another um group, and that this tremoring mechanism and this um in Slovenia we called it um before reflex mobility training for our nervous system. It was like training, you know. Um so we had a different name. And so when Katja and I added up all the hours, we realized that the whole project required about 32 hours of work for the teachers. Um, and half of these hours were spent on practical implementation in the school and also on documenting or documenting the process. Um, yeah, and that was also inspiration for the book. Um and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

Yeah, amazing. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

I'll I'll add that we actually had two Zoom sessions with Dr. David Berselli, where he listened in the beginning in the in the middle of the pilot, well, before the pilot, we all got together to share our fears and to share the concerns. And uh we received a lot of support uh to be creative, to uh work in a different in a different setting, to not try to replicate how we were taught, but to actually answer to the needs of the teachers. And then um, yes, we had we had a few sessions with David Berselli going over, and one particular thing was interesting. Remember how he was so surprised that, or actually not surprised, that the school counselor did not feel as comfortable working with students and managing the group as the PE teacher. And the whole, like in the very beginning, our idea was to allow students to learn from the people that they already trust.

SPEAKER_05 41:42

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Um Katya, I uh I think she was going to add something.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

Yeah, Katya, I was wondering maybe you could share um like what were some of the main learnings from this pilot? Like what what were there any surprises? Were the did it give you any ideas around what uh should happen next or in the future? What what were the what did you learn from this study?

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Yeah, um first of all, I really I was and we were all so happy that this um started, um that this implementation into the this high school um was and um that I can see these um girls different and how this was so important for their bodies. This was for me the most powerful thing. How to tell more and more young people to know this as soon as possible, like that they can use it um for their life, uh for their bodies, because if these kids know how to use these tools, then it's so much um easier for their bodies, it's so much easier in this life where it's a lot of stress and anxiety. And um when I see how um this girl said it's I sleep better, my focus is better, um I I feel myself more than before. These are so important things that um even when I see my my child here, as when he does TRE, how easier it is to fall asleep then. And I think this is this is the thing that um for me was like a like a click, please. Can it be this more and more that we can give not um not just to like I mean older people but to this youth that really need this in this moment and in this time that it's a lot of things happening around that their mind is full of um so many informations, they really need to settle down and to relax. Um

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Well maybe I can add um I was surprised that only five to seven minutes of tremoring has a big effect. I I uh usually um had in mind okay this has to be you know first, second, third uh um exercise and it has to last one hour and and a half. And no, um I think that all youngest um I work with adolescents, they have really um they have different um how do we say eutiny system um nervous system? Nervous system, uh more reactive nervous system, and just a little bit of tremoring, you know, a minute, and it's enough. In my school, um yeah, I also had um nine uh week-long um theory sessions with students, and I had a girl who who tremored just, I don't know, for 10 seconds, and it was enough for her. She went to sleep and she slept for half an hour, and that that was it. And what surprised me also in this pilot that maybe the providers overcomplicate some things. Um, that maybe we are afraid. Um, what could happen, what should happen, what mustn't happen. And these PE teachers, you know, they know how to guide through um body exercises, and they say first, second, that's it, no complications, you know. Um yeah, and something also moved beyond my uh prejudice. Um yeah, I thought that uh PE teachers may actually that they are very well equipped, and as Vera said may uh Vera said maybe also more than school counselors or a school psychologist, and that the most important thing, and we can this um we can tell this more times is a safe relationship. I had a question, okay. We didn't know how to decide. Um, should we as a theory providers go to school and um show how needs to be done, or are um do we trust those teachers that they could do this on their own? You know, they had before um the basics of theory, and yeah, we saw that the safe place is the most important. Um maybe if I come there to the school first, they have to know me, I have to know their names, blah blah blah. So yeah, um it's the key um to to this. The the the first thing is the key. Yeah, it's great that um also parents can guide um children, but maybe yeah, um sometimes also parents are not a safe place. Maybe P teacher is is the safer for them. So yeah, that's that's all that's is coming to my mind right now.

SPEAKER_05 47:06

I I love that emphasis on the relationship and if they may already have a person that they have established safety and trust, you know, for example, the P teacher or the or another, and that and that if if if um those people can be safely trained, as you're suggesting, to actually be the implementer, um then that's a very natural. So that that that insight sounds very important compared to the idea of outside uh TRE providers coming in. So that's a very nice, nice piece. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Yeah. Yeah, but on the other um hand, I have to also uh say that that doesn't mean that mean that the teacher weren't unsure or even frightened at the beginning because um yeah, some students also it happened that they cried. Um and uh PE teachers are not uh used to crying in PE. Usually this is yay! Uh so yeah, there were um these Zoom meetings where we could talk about this. And okay, what's happening now? I'm not used to crying. Should I hold her? Should I go? Should I stop? And yeah, there uh were some topics that they um teachers um needed um our guidelines, uh what to do, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

So it's not just um yeah, yes, it's not it's not very, very simple, and this is why I would not recommend anyone just taking the book and going and teaching a big group of kids. I think that the the idea was um let's think who can share Terry with youth. And youth deals with three groups of adults adults at home, their direct teachers, and after school programs. Those are the three groups of adults. We believe that uh bringing Terry regularly, braining neurogenic tremor regularly is really the key because to train the nervous system, you don't just need to experience, oh, my legs shake and that's it. We actually need to set a regular practice and explain that this is how both the biological completion happens, how you discharge unnecessary tension, and also how you through interception train the vagus nerve. That's why doing this five, seven minutes uh was the concept that we originally had with David Vercelli, that that is a lot more realistic than simply going and introducing the method and telling them what the benefits are. Unless they feel it, it's not gonna stick. So going back to the second group, teachers, IPE teachers, uh sports coaches in after school programs are probably um a really correct avenue to share this method, this different framework. However, if you just teach this and parents know nothing, it's not going to be realistic. That's why if the parent has a book and can understand what the process is, they would be trusting the coaches and the P teachers a lot more. And um, in the background, all these years we were thinking what is the safe way to educate the teachers and who would do that. So, Alex, could you share what you think are the right ways forward, how working maybe with TFA, this whole idea of specialized trainers. Um do you think that's a realistic way forward?

SPEAKER_05 50:51

Yeah, well, so so that's that's actually where I was going to kind of bring our conversation to as well, which is that you know, having um, you know, written the book is out there now, and actually soon there will be these two versions for the the older ages and the younger ages. And then we have this very important documented uh study via the pilot project in Slovenia. And so then the question is, okay, well, what's next? Where where are we headed? And and something that uh Vera has been clear about from the beginning, uh and in conversation with the rest of us here and and and even beyond this group here, is the idea of how to effectively create um uh education, uh educational programs. And so the book is a wonderful starting point. It's definitely something where parents can read it, become familiar, uh children can read, become familiar, um, try this uh on their own. But in terms of having broader programs uh where uh PE teachers might start to use this in groups, or teachers might start to use this in groups, what what we have recognized is that we need to create um uh an educational program uh for TRE providers existing TRE providers or uh or TRE trainers, um, or even people for whom who might be youth educators, but they want to, they may not be TRE providers yet, but they want to become uh uh trained in the methodology that's going to be resonant with uh these youth applications. And so uh we're that's what we're in the process of of doing now is actually um completing the first um uh primarily an online-based learning program geared towards parents, uh, which is in some ways a supplement to the book where they can uh learn a little bit more about some of the science ideas uh about the nervous system and the body, and then also through video learn a little bit more directly some of the ways of um of utilizing this protocol uh with children. So that's one step, and so that's uh one step in the educational direction. Uh and then Vera, I think you should talk a little bit about the step beyond that, which is uh we're in the process of developing a curriculum to train uh TRE providers or other people to become, I think the word is a dynamic superpower guide or a reflex and mobility guide. You'll have to, you'll have to remind me of what we landed on here. But people who truly know this method and know how to teach it to those adults who are in children's lives. So can you share a little bit about your vision around how that uh will be happening, Giro?

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Thank you, Alex. Uh with uh the with respect to the trademark method of TRE, we all know that only uh certified trainers can train other adults to teach groups. Uh there is another avenue which is called agency-based training, or now it's going to be called specialized training. And the idea is that a current TRE provider can, for example, go and do after-school program and use our method. They don't need that much more education. However, if the existing TRE provider or trainer would like to train teachers or coaches to do it on their own with kids, they need some additional education. And that's why we did lessons learned after the pilot. We are making the curriculum not take 36 hours, but maybe a combination of videos and one-on-one or Zoom sessions, something that would enable teachers and coaches to have the right to teach the kids.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Without becoming TRE providers or trainers, but having a different type of approach, uh, maybe specialized uh reflex mobility guides.

SPEAKER_05 55:24

Right. I see. Yeah, and that that what you're saying right there, this idea of specialized programming, this has been an idea uh from Dr. Berselli for a number of years, and it's the idea that you know TRE has done quite well as a global modality, and for it to continue to go even further, what he has been saying is that we have to be willing to develop specializations, sometimes using new language. And an example is we've been working with firefighters, and they have developed a specialized program unique to the firefighting uh world. Another example is working with uh bodywork therapists or manual therapists who might have some special needs and even their own language and understanding. And so this idea of, you know, we have this beautiful modality of TRE that's represented in like 75 countries or something, but then now part of the work is to is to start to deepen this into specific professional tracks. And so um this idea of uh creating um a specialization around teaching children, or actually, in fact, teaching adults who work with children how to um do this in a safe way, in a fun way, uh adjust it so that you're not going for 20 minutes or something, but that you're learning these ideas of of uh how to approach it. So that is um and that's Vera a part or a role that I have as a as a trainer is to help shape um this uh this approach along this specialization. So so yeah, so that's kind of where we are headed with this is to create that that pathway. Um uh I'm just kind of respectful of time, so let's maybe take a moment for kind of closing words. I'd love just to hear maybe one more thought from everybody. And then Vera, also when please uh include how somebody can find this work. Uh the website, of course, we'll list all of that in the description in the show notes. It will make it very easy to find the book, to find the website, YouTube videos related to the pilot project, etc. All of that will be clear, but maybe you could just say a few words around how somebody can find out more. So um uh maybe Katya, if we could start with you, maybe just any closing thoughts as we wrap up this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 58:01

Yeah, maybe I would um mention maybe just like think that first of all, that it's important to ask first myself if I am willing to work, for example, with kids, and if I am like um wish to do this, um, and how I feel for myself to um yeah, to do some work with children or more with adults. So this is one of the things that it's good to ask like myself. Um and if I have like also some pedagogical background before, or if I work in some fields like school, kindergarten, youth center before. Um and then like for the ending, I would just say that it's um I would really love that um in some years that like this uh period would be something that um children learn early, like in schools, at home, in a normal like as a normal life skill, just like some movement or um yeah, just some everyday um activities. So that this would be something that we could give our kids and um that to build this resilience from the early beginning. And this would be my very big wish. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:20

I love that. You're here. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, good. How about you, Spila? What what would what are your closing thoughts from this conversation?

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Yeah, I think I could um sign under Katya's uh sentence. And um yeah, I hope that this will uh this tremoring mechanism will no longer carry on um any carry any stigma. Instead, um I wish it will become something normal, uh even maybe something in in our school. Uh sometimes uh when I start with these sessions, it it's in. Oh, what are you doing? And not just in for the girls, but also I hope that also boys will be tremoring too. Um yeah, that's my I'm I'm sure they will be.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:10

I'm confident they will be. That's cool. Good. How about you, Vera? What closing thoughts and and would you share?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

There is a beautiful poet that when she was 90 years old, she said uh here is the here's the recipe for the fulfilled life, and that is the poem goes like this um pay attention, become astonished, tell about it. So I feel like we as a group became astonished of how much power this method has to train resiliency to equip younger generation against um fears and against uh real dangers as suicide and disruptive behavior substance abuse. This will not solve all the world problems, but I'm very I'm very positive that it is one of the tools that if we know it, we have the responsibility to share it safely. And I also see that we will be working and offering some workshops for existing TRE providers on how to do after school classes for kids. Uh, Dr. Lisa Glenk from uh Austria is doing that already. A lot of uh Schwela was doing that as an afterschool program. So there is a lot of sharing for existing TRE providers that don't want to educate teachers but want to bring the work to kids. And it's already happening in Argentina, in Brazil, in so many countries. We're in touch with these people, and we want to continue to inspire each other to learn and offer different ways to bring burnout prevention for teachers because it will all eventually get into kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:04

Wonderful. And and where can somebody go to find the book to learn more about this uh Reflex and Mobility Academy? Um Yes, we have a website.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

Uh it's called www.reflex and mobility.org because it's Reflex and Mobility Academy. Uh, we have the Instagram page that needs more work. Um, and this is all grassroots, so please be patient with us. Uh, you also can contact us for more information uh through email, and uh, we're welcome for suggestions and improvements.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:42

Wonderful. Well, I guess my closing words would be um, yeah, just what a what a what an inspiration to hear from each of you and how you have found your way to this work with your own children at home, with the children that you work with in schools. Um I really sort of uh admire the the sort of persistence, you know, that over multiple years now to really truly think through um what would be the best approaches and and to to do this in a way that is sustainable. Um and uh and so yeah, major credit to all of you for your uh how you've approached this program. Um and then the other piece that I just so much appreciate is is the uh international component of things. I mean, to me, how wonderful that we can be learning from uh uh programs in Slovenia, in the United States, in Switzerland, as you mentioned. So um this idea of uh sharing uh the collaborative learning, uh Hindra in Indonesia. So uh to me, part of what will make uh a success here in general is that you know we're we're thinking about how do we bring this to children um tr truly in a global manner. And so that that to me is just very inspirational to think about. So um uh very excited just to sort of hear all of this and uh excited to be a part of kind of you know how we develop this in the next stages. So thanks thanks everybody for taking time uh this evening.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:21

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drawing.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:31

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SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us. Or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.