E24 - Humanitarian Applications of TRE: Disaster Response & Finding Local Champions with Sae Kani

In 2004, photojournalist Sae Kani was dropped by a US helicopter into Aceh, Indonesia, days after the tsunami erased entire villages. She walked, photographed, interviewed — and felt nothing. It was only back home, diagnosed with PTSD, that she began to understand what disaster leaves in the body. Two decades of humanitarian work later, she is still answering the question that experience planted: why is trauma care the piece disaster response keeps leaving out?

In this episode, Alex sits down with Sae to trace that arc: from development studies in London and photojournalism in East Timor and post-tsunami Aceh; through ten years building disaster-preparedness education in Indonesia — including materials for children with disabilities that were showcased at the UN; to discovering Tension and Trauma Releasing Exercises (TRE®) in 2012 and recognizing "the missing piece" of her aid work; the decision after the 2015 Nepal earthquake to quit her job, sell everything, and teach at a nun school in Kathmandu; the hard lessons about why quick international responses don't last; and the community facilitator model now bearing fruit in Nepal and Vietnam — where a war veteran's forty-year phantom pain finally released, and his voice reached the government in Hanoi.

Sae Kani, also known as Khalida, holds bachelor's and master's degrees in International Development from SOAS, University of London, and spent 13 years working across disaster-affected regions in Asia. She discovered TRE® in 2012 while supporting recovery efforts after the Great East Japan Earthquake, became a certified provider in 2013, and spent a year in Nepal after the 2015 earthquake providing trauma care and training local therapists. Since 2016 she has been the representative of TRE for ALL Japan, and as an internationally certified TRE® trainer she conducts workshops in five Asian countries and works with clients across Europe and the Americas. She lives in Yamanakako Village, Yamanashi Prefecture, at the foot of Mount Fuji.

⏱ KEY HIGHLIGHTS

0:00 - Welcome & introductions 

3:24 - A childhood pull toward the world's hardest places

5:34 - Photojournalism: asylum seekers, East Timor & the stories behind the scenes 

9:47 - Flying into Aceh after the 2004 tsunami 

11:52 - "When I was there, I felt nothing" — coming home with PTSD 

14:34 - A careful recovery: rest, meditation & 10,000 photographs 

17:50 - The Yogyakarta earthquake & a decade in humanitarian aid 

19:43 - Disaster-preparedness education for children with disabilities 

27:27 - Discovering TRE®: the missing piece of aid work 

28:54 - Aceh ten years later: new buildings, unhealed scars 

35:29 - "Joan, we are going there" — the Nepal decision 

40:46 - Learning from failure: why quick responses don't stay 

41:56 - Jamuna's decade with survivors of trafficking 

48:33 - Why standard certification can't reach the grassroots 

53:11 - The Vietnam disability project: phantom pain & a trip to Hanoi 

1:07:18 - "There is no shortcut" — support, not supervision 

1:09:44 - What's next for Sae: subtle body, meditation & couples work 

1:14:23 - Closing reflections

🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS

Connect with Sae Kani — internationally certified TRE® certification trainer based in Yamanashi, Japan, and representative of TRE for ALL Japan: https://www.saekani.com/english

Also mentioned: Dr. David Berceli (creator of TRE®), Joan McDonald (TRE® trainer and Sae's partner in the Nepal project), Tsoknyi Rinpoche (whose nun school invited them to Nepal), Jamuna (community facilitator in Nepal), and TRE for All. (Full links in the internal notes below.)

🔗 Join our live weekly classes → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#classes 🎓 Explore our Online TRE® Certification → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#cert

📍 FIND US ONLINE Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/  Instagram: @neurogenicintegration

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics. I'm Alex Green.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

And I am Sebia Sun Shields. Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research.

SPEAKER_04 0:23

Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. All right, welcome everybody. Today I'm very excited to be sitting down with my colleague Sai Kani. And Sai is a TRE certification trainer and provider, of course, based outside of Mount Fuji in Japan, in Yamanashi Prefecture, outside of Tokyo. And uh I first met Sai about almost 10 years ago when I was fortunate to travel to an event that she coordinated at uh Koyasan outside of Osaka in Japan. This was sort of like an advanced training with Dr. Braseli and many other providers, and it was a unique uh training experience because the setting was at a Buddhist temple up in a sort of a famous Buddhist mountain area, and it was uh quite cool in all ways. And that sort of coincided with, if I remember correctly, Csai, that was about the time that you became a certification trainer, because it was right at the end of your journey in that.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Um, so in any case, so Cai is um has a really uh fascinating background uh even even before her work in TRE, working with NGO uh organizations with an emphasis on humanitarian work. And that's really the major theme that we're gonna be discussing today, in addition to hearing, you know, just about SI's connection to TRE and how she how she became so committed to it. Um and uh because Psy has been very involved with uh humanitarian applications of TRE, and so today I would really like to discuss that um journey, some of the sort of unique um uh projects uh that Sai has been involved with TRE in a humanitarian context. And then every time I talk with Sai, she has really great ideas, or even I would say a vision around uh we could almost call it the do's and don'ts of of uh bringing or or the best practices or or better practices, uh what works and doesn't work very well uh in terms of supporting things like disasters and things like that based upon her uh her experience over her career. So, this is um what I'm really hoping that we can discuss today, Sai. And thank you so much for taking some time on a what a Tuesday morning for you. Yeah?

SPEAKER_05 3:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

Yeah. Good welcome.

SPEAKER_05 3:32

Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Good. Well, Cai, could we just sort of I always like to hear somebody's kind of like their why or their their background, like uh not even the why for TRE, I do want to hear that, but like what you know, I you're you're born and raised in Japan, but you've spent a lot of time, uh some of some of your education and career has been overseas. Could you just sort of take us through kind of, you know, as you began your professional career, what what you were wanting to achieve and and be a part of, and uh eventually how that led you into the work you did with NGOs and ultimately to TRE. So yeah, just sort of take us on your background journey if you're if you're willing to.

SPEAKER_05 4:15

All right. So uh thank you very much um for the invitation. Um I was born and raised in Japan until I was 18. But um since I was quite young, I was very interested in working in developing countries like Africa and Asia. Um I don't know if you were around the same age as me, you might remember this feminine Ethiopia, you know, the UNICEF is raising funds in schools and you bring your pocket money and all that. It was something about working in the environment completely different from mine. I don't know why I was so fascinated. Um, but at the time when I had to choose my direction to the university in Japan or whatever, I realized that there was nothing I wanted to study in Japan. You know, development studied something more towards development of economy, you know, so that there was a with a department of economics and then you you study about economic development, which was not part of my interest. And I happened to find this university in the UK. I mean, UK was very advanced in terms of uh community-based development studies. So I went to UK and studied the development studies in my my undergraduate and master's. So um nearly 10 years I was working studying in a development field. Um 2006, well, before that I was a photojournalist, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

Four or five years. Um, I've got another master's in photojournalism. So I was traveling around the post-conflict, post-disaster area, taking photos, writing articles as a freelance journalist.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

I don't I don't want to skip over, I mean, that part sounds very, very relevant. Maybe perhaps maybe let's not skip too quickly past that. Uh maybe could you just share some of the places and locations that you that you did that photojournalism in?

SPEAKER_05 6:22

Ah, okay. So um after I studied my development studies, um I already got a little bit disappointed about the how aid agencies operate in terms of really knowing the the things behind the scene. So I'm already not so enthusiastic, I'm not so euphoric about oh, you know, helping poor people. That kind of perspective is already.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

I mean, without maybe without if you don't want to name names, that's okay, but like just aid organizations in general, like or yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05 6:59

Well, we all know nowadays, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:03

Aid agency collect a lot of money, and a lot of money doesn't go to the community directly.

unknown 7:10

Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:10

A lot of the money is spent for the managing the institutions.

unknown 7:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:15

Which is the same way as corporate.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

I mean, sure.

SPEAKER_05 7:18

You know? So I am not looking, I was not looking for the the the path of being elite in the development. So I never wanted to get a job in World Bank, IMF, that kind of uh developmental elite.

unknown 7:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 7:34

I was always interested in the community-based grassroots work.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

I see.

SPEAKER_05 7:39

So I'm kind of rebel.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 7:44

As always. Um, yeah. So when I finished my master's degree, I got a little bit disappointed about that. And then I loved photography, so I took the path of studying journalism, photojournalism. And um basically I was doing a very small project around northern England where I was living. I was focusing on the project on asylum seekers, female asylum seekers. Um I am kind of unique, you know, I am not white, but I am not South Asian, which was a major conflict in North England.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 8:21

You know, the Asian community, Indian Pakistan, and then the white English community. Right. And there was almost no friendly contact in the middle.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

There's a lot of conflict between those two communities.

SPEAKER_05 8:33

Exactly. But I am not belonging either. So I could go in between, and I'm female, so I could reach out to the female Islamic asylum seeker community in northern England and how they are home schooling the girls and children there. So it was a very interesting experience as a startup. And then I started to travel abroad. I was in Indonesia mainly, and I was also covering a story of independence of East Timo, the Timo Leste, in 2002. Um, I was also joining in a local media team to go along with the first president of Istimo, Shanana Gusmao. So again, because I have a local contact and I studied Indonesian language, so I spoke Indonesian quite well at the time. So instead of going to the major um news agency, I could operate quite independently around those areas with a local journalist. So I could see a lot of um stories behind the scene, it doesn't show up in the major media. You see, that's the kind of interest I just want to see the the authenticity of people and stories, and even it never shows up to the major uh media, you know. I still have uh uh like 10,000 photographs from those times, and a lot of the picture weren't accepted by the agency. Very simple reason. Oh, the president is smoking, you know, we are not allowed to show the cigarettes in our news, like silly.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Right, interesting.

SPEAKER_05 10:24

Anyway, it's okay, you know. So I I was not very successful journalist to make a living, right? Right, but it really nurtured me as a person. Okay, and 2004 there was a massive tsunami in Thailand, you know, that the northern religious mantra. Yeah, I was in Bali at the time, so I just gathered my things and I just flew to uh Aceh, which is uh the epicenter of that tsunami area. So again, I was alone. I met a local journalist along the way in the airplane. So again, it was quite a you know, a journey, it's adventure. Because at the time that North Sumatra, it's a region called Ace, autonomous province, was not uh accessible by foreign journalists because there was an internal fight going on.

SPEAKER_04 11:17

But uh because this is an I this is a region or in Indonesia, is that correct?

SPEAKER_05 11:22

Yeah, it's a the top of Sumatra, it's called Ace, it's a separate region, autonomous region. It's like Istimo, it's the same political context at the time. The two of them wanted to be independent from Indonesia. Okay, so that there was a lot of uh sensitivity, political sensitivity around that area. Yeah, you know, so so yeah, at the time that the tsunami hit, it was still a lot of um difficulty accessing. That's why the story didn't come out immediately from Aceh at the time of the tsunami. So I was with a local journalist, I look agent, I put the head scarf like a Muslim scarf, and I just went.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 12:03

Uh on on the road, not by plane.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

And and what were you were you photographing, were you interviewing? What what were you doing?

SPEAKER_05 12:10

I was photographing of interviewing. I was writing a story to the Japanese um uh new web web agency. Web news agency.

unknown 12:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:22

So so that also was my encounter with disaster, big disaster.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

I mean, that sounds intense probably in lots of ways. How long were you on the ground and how yeah, how did that how did that affect you? I imagine that was I imagine you saw uh firsthand a lot of the destruction and devastation.

SPEAKER_05 12:42

Yes, yes. Um I was there about three weeks on the ground.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:49

And and and eventually I got exhausted and I came home and I was diagnosed as PTSD.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Oh, really? Really?

SPEAKER_05 12:59

It's interesting. Yeah, it's very interesting because when I was there, I felt nothing. I was probably now I know, I disconnected my emotions, yeah, and I was just going, going, going, you know. Absolutely, absolutely. It it it's it's intense. It's intense, you know. It's it's Indonesia and it was like people, like whole village, 5,000 people disappeared, and I was dropped by the uh US helicopter, and just be by myself walking around, taking photos, interviewing people. Yeah, it was very intense, but also very touching experience as well. I met one guy, he just happened to be in another town, went to Tunami Head, and he came back to the village, and the entire village is gone. He's like almost 57 family members disappeared. He's alone.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 13:55

Right? And I was thinking if it was Japan, everybody started kidding themselves, you know? But he just like, okay, I'm alone, nothing to do, nothing to eat. I will join the Red Cross and I will start helping other people. So he came and then joined in a Red Cross and just go out with other volunteers, not helping other people. This kind of resilience, the strength was something beyond what I could imagine. Wow. You know? So that that this whole experience with the steamer and then all this it really um made my life rich in a way that understanding humanity both light and shadow.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Wow. W you you know, with your PTSD diagnosis when you got home, d do you feel that that was the result of a of a a longer stretch of time, or do you feel that that was directly connected to the intensity of the three weeks in in that?

SPEAKER_05 15:05

I think it was intensity of three weeks.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:09

Because I recovered quite fast.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Yeah. How did you successfully recover at that time?

SPEAKER_05 15:18

I just rested. Took two time. I had some, yeah, I had some counseling.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:24

Um I I practiced meditation at the time already. So just the understanding that I needed to process this. And you know, obviously, as a photojournalist, I had this huge pile of photographs I needed to process. So going through these photographs on my own pace, creating stories, writing about my experiences, this layer of experience, you know, that was helping me to process what happened. So, first one month I was like terrible. As soon as I left the the Acheh, being on the plane, I felt my energy was like a collapsing. I couldn't stand up anymore. And as soon as I get home, I was throwing up, I had diarrhea, I had nightmares, I was shaking.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 16:18

So so I I kind of knew what was happening, you know. It took me about one month physically recovered. And then after that, I had these three months, very carefully going through this process, yeah. Not go out, not do too much. And slowly, slowly um I got better.

SPEAKER_04 16:44

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

And did and then did you w where yeah, where did after that recovery process and and the careful sorting through of all your materials at your pace, w did you sort of stay in that work for a while or did or did did you start to shift your did your career shift in any direction at that point?

SPEAKER_05 17:06

Or um so uh after that, um I realized, well, photojournal itself is not gonna be able to sustain my living. I love the work, I love what I do, but I had to make a lot of compromise. If I want to make money from it, I have to work for agencies. I have to, you know, sometimes sell my souls, you know? Yeah, to make to make enough money, to make myself and and I was also taking photographs in the restaurant and then spa and hotels and writing a travel piece. That was fun. But when the agencies own my photographs, they have a right to use for whatever.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

You see? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:52

But I didn't want my photographs to be taken out of context.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 17:57

And then using the the photographs of the children I took in eastern mode to be advertising something else.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

So this is kind of compromise I couldn't make.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:10

So so I said, okay, fine. So I went back to London and then start working in a normal company for less than a year. Something happened again. My life is determined by by the disaster. So um, and then another big uh disaster happened in Indonesia 2006. It's a Dr. Carter earthquake.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 18:33

And um me and my partner at the time, we both spoke Indonesia and we had development background. Yeah, we were sent to Indonesia to start up that new NGO office.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

I see, okay.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

So we started the new office. It was a German NGO, but we started the Indonesian branch there in 2006. And I worked as a humanitarian aid specialist, disaster management specialist since then for 10 years after.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

I within that organ that within that organization. That NGO that you kind of set up with your partner.

SPEAKER_05 19:13

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

I see.

SPEAKER_05 19:16

That's how it started.

SPEAKER_04 19:17

Tell us a little, I mean, that that's a long 10-year stretch. Tell us just a little bit about what your role, what did that mean to be a development specialist or a or or whatever uh I missed what your title was exactly, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:32

So um initially we entered uh the disaster relief, right? And set up the office. But the disaster relief period is up to six months. It's a the project cycle. And then the aid starts moving into more midterm development phase, right? So the first the all the house is a collapse, you need to give us shelters, you need to set up the toilet, wash, you know, or this kind of the typical um UN-led disaster relief phase. Once it's over, some organization would leave. The disaster relief special specialists, they would leave then. But my background is not so much about the emergency relief, it's more about midterm community-based development. That was my background.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

I see. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 20:22

So I started to find the gaps in between Indonesian education system, there was no education about disaster preparedness in school. For example, I was brought up in Japan, and since kindergarten, we are practicing drills. You know, the the earthquake drills. Right, yeah, yeah, sure. It's part of our education, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 20:48

Indonesia is also a supermarket of natural disasters, but they never had any educational curriculum around the disaster preparedness.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

Oh, I see. Interesting. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:58

So I saw that was a gap. So I started to develop the primary school uh curriculum on the disaster preparedness for the schools, and then the training of teachers. So that was a beginning, and I'm quite good at finding gaps in between everything. So I'm a rebel, I don't want to go to the mainstream, right? So uh then I started to realize there was a special needs school there. Uh the material I was developing is for the mainstream schools, it was not uh usable for blind or hearing impaired. So then I thought I had experience volunteering in Kenya when I was 18 in the school for the deaf. So I had that interest in in the disability area also.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

Accessibility Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 21:49

So I started to develop the the teaching material for children with a visually impaired and hearing impaired and intellectual um disability also. Working with the school teachers there. And at the time, really, the whole Asian region just started to develop this kind of curriculum development with a bigger framework. It's called the Hyogo Framework of Action. So the whole world started to take this disaster preparedness part seriously. Prior to that, it was all about response, response, response. Right? So just spending money to respond, but there's a no-preparedness in those regions. So the another disaster strike, it's the resilience is the same as before.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

Back to square one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:38

Exactly. So the whole world started to notice the need to build the capacity to prepare and respond from the community itself. So I was in the timing as well. Then the material for the disability uh population got a big hit because there was nobody else who was doing it. So my material from our organization was showcased in UN and then internationally, and then ASEAN and all this this this. So the project got kind of spread. So that was my background. So I was doing a lot of uh teacher training, a lot of community outreach, uh producing the radio drama around the community preparedness. So there is a lot of creative ways to reach the community.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 23:33

You see, it was very interesting because when the UN was trying to do the disaster preparedness, it was such a tech-oriented you know, the people we are trying to reach has hasn't got an internet access.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

They're not tech oriented, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_05 23:49

What is the point of producing hundreds of PDF posters that nobody had uh access? Right? So this is a kind of um disappointment that I experienced when I was in the master's degree, this this disparity of consciousness. Like it's obvious gap to me, but a lot of people don't even notice.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

And a lot of money was spent on this kind of high-tech interventions that wasn't going to be the best way to spread information.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

Exactly. Exactly. So the information outreach was one of my interests because I also as a journalist, right? The journalism background. So using the the creative media to try to reach out to the community was very interesting.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

Yeah, wow. So then so you were in that role and organization, I think you said for 10 years. What what what represented the the completion or the decision? Like what how did you know when it was time to do something different?

SPEAKER_05 24:55

Right. So I was in Indonesia about six years, and then I was in Istimo one year. It's all the same job, disaster preparedness.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

I see.

SPEAKER_05 25:04

And then another disaster struck, of course, 2011 in Japan.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 25:10

So when tsunami hit to Japan, yeah, my country, I obviously thought I had to be there. Right. So I left Indonesia, I came back to Japan. That was the first time I lived in Japan after 16 years being abroad.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 25:27

So then I started to respond in the north of Japan with the tsunami the nuclear disasters, that the tsunami, the leader.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

Tsunami and nuclear, yeah. The tsunami first and then nuclear. Right, right. So I was involved in the reconstruction of the orphanage there.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_05 25:46

Yes, and then try to create it more sustainable um system. So when the electricity and water cut off, the the whole building can sustain themselves. So renewable energy system. So I was a project managing that project when I was in Japan. And it's coincidentally, the the last year of that, they were this uh UN conference on disaster in Sendai in Japan. And that was for me the completion of these 10 years of my work as a disaster management person. Um I organized the group, I already created the disability uh rights movement in the participation in the decision making of humanitarian preparedness and response. So I did so much advocacy work at the point. I was already sort of, you know, middle management, so not what directly working in the field, but I was more in the the international advocacy area.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Right.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

And um, it was successfully done, and the the people with disability was directly involved in decision making. So for me, my job was done, I felt, at the time. I didn't know what to do next. Then another disaster struck, which was 2015 April, there's a massive earthquake in Nepal.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:20

Do you remember? I was already TRE provider then.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Okay, okay. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:26

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

I need to go back to where we better go. Yeah, we better we better we better cover that part then. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

Right. So I uh so when I arrived back in Japan after you know the the tsunami in Japan, it was 2011, April.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:42

And 2000, beginning of 2012, I discover David Burselli was coming to Japan to help this response.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

To help the Fukushima disaster?

SPEAKER_05 27:57

Uh uh yeah, if Fukushima is is a the nuclear disaster, but uh it's more like a tsunami disaster of the city. Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

The tsunami was a bigger a bigger region, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:07

Yeah, Tohoku region.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

I see, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:11

So um when I read about TRE first time, because David was also the humanitarian worker, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:20

For sure.

SPEAKER_05 28:21

And it really resonated with me because I was working in disaster area for a long time as a journalist and as a as a you know aid worker, I always felt something was missing that was a trauma uh response. Okay, you know, international agencies pay for something it's quantifiable. For example, two thousand houses was built, 40,000 the tapollings was distributed, all these quantifiable measures.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

I see.

SPEAKER_05 28:55

But trauma care is something not quantifiable. Right? We cannot measure the progress. And it cannot measure the progress in three years.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 29:11

So it's not the kind of subject that eight agency want to give money to.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:18

Of course, they do things like a child safe place and then create the playground, do the little bit of art therapy here and there, but it's nothing significant enough to change the life of people.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:32

So I always noticed that something was missing there. Something was missing. I was in Aceh 2004 and Aceh, Indonesia, you know, after the big big uh tsunami, and I was back there 2014, 10 years later. So the change is magnificent, you know. Before Aceh was like very, very underdeveloped, constantly with uh fighting and and you know, war and completely torn apart. But uh there is a billions of money went in after tsunami in Aceh, and they rebuilt that city completely, you know, so it's it's like new hotels, new houses, new roads, new everything. But when I was really reaching out to the community level people talking, the story is is completely different, right?

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

The aid agency, look at US coming here, build 1000 houses, okay, UK coming here, you know, building another 500 houses sectioned, you know? Yeah, there is no coordination with the local community, the web of the community.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

What they needed the most or that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_05 30:46

Yes, yeah, yeah. How they needed that aid. You know, because it's all about the efficiency. So you just give the house to the old man who whose everybody else died and he was only one living there, and they're giving this house, he's not gonna live there alone.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

You know, so he just moved to the another relative's house in another part of Indonesia and house is abandoned.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 31:15

You see, it's just a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

So just things that don't make that just don't make sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:19

Exactly. I mean, if you work in the field, you see so much of the waste.

unknown 31:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

The lack of coordination, top-down intervention.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:29

Right. So so I knew the the the scars of the people from that incident 10 years ago isn't healing. Same in Timo Leste and Istimo, there was a 24 years of internal war and two generations already severely wounded. 2000 and one uh 1999, there was this big militia killing one-third of population.

unknown 32:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:01

Then 2002 independent, and then wh a lot of money came in, and then many things built up. But there was a more domestic violence, you know, there was a gangs. So this imbalance of the development, you know, without taking care of their mentality, their trauma, their generational issues.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:28

Yeah. So I always thought trauma thing was missing from the international aid.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

So so so Dr. Braseli went to that region in Japan, and then did you meet him then, or what was your participation in that?

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Um I I met he did a several workshop across Japan then. So I went to the one in Yokohama when he visited, and me and my mom and and and my little niece, we all went there and then we did shaking. Ah, I was in Kobe. Sorry, nothing else. Yokohama, it was Kobe.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:04

Yeah, then I met him. And um, yeah, I was like, wow.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Yeah, what what what was your initial impression, both because it sounds like you personally practiced it, maybe you had a maybe I I'm curious about that, but then of course you were you probably spoke with him and learned more about his work. So yeah, what what what was your impression? What what yeah, what happened for you in that initial time period?

SPEAKER_05 33:31

Um so first of all, the whole idea of PRE really appealed to me because it was like a missing piece of my last work. You know, you can do it without language, you can do it without education, you can do it in a group, you just it's exercise so simple, anybody, any human can do it. It for me was like, wow, this is incredible. So my interest was not really about me, but about others.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

How it could be applied so readily. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:04

So, and then he talked about firefighters, and then he talked about military and and then the PTSD for the military and things like, and I was like, wow, this is it, I want to learn this.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

Cool.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

My body was very happy shaking from day one. Yeah, it was very fascinating. Yeah, but I was more, I don't know, grabbed by the idea of how can I use this in my work?

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Yeah, you saw the application the need for it and how it could be used so clearly.

SPEAKER_05 34:35

Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:38

So I'm the first batch in Japan that started learning TRE in 2012.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

How did you be at that time, I imagine there were how how did you become certified? Um, I mean, who was did you have to travel for that?

SPEAKER_05 34:50

Or no, there was uh the couple who were teaching um in Japan at the time.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

Yeah, but then there was this uh issue. I don't want to say in detail, but there was the issue happened, and then that they were out, and I got in as a trainer. Okay, but okay, but you were able to learn in Japan in Japan the the module one, but uh had a little difficulty with this uh trainer, so I went to Thailand and then my my final certified trainer with the John MacDonald that I went to Thailand and learned from her from module two onwards, and I was certified by her.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Yes, yes, yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_05 35:31

Yeah. Then then you know John and I got on really well because she's also interested in the the humanitarian, he was working for the indigenous in Canada, so we were just no expectation, just talking around the how TRE can be used in humanitarian aid.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:50

So I was certified in 2013, and then Nepal earthquake happened in 2015.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

And then John sent me a message say, where shall I donate the money to in Nepal?

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Right.

SPEAKER_05 36:05

You know?

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

And and I said, without thinking, John, we are going there. So that's how it happened. The Nepal.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_05 36:16

Yeah, I said, okay, John, we are going there. And then at the time I wasn't thinking of quitting job or anything. I just thought we have to go there, maybe using some holidays, and then we go there.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Right.

SPEAKER_05 36:28

But as I was already thinking about leaving that job, right? And then the this Nepal thing happened at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:37

And as we are talking, nothing major response, nothing. We just personally go there and then teach DRE to people a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 36:46

But then we had this uh invitation from the non-school by the Tsokni Rinpoche from Nepal came. The school was inviting us to go there and teach children TRE.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 37:02

And that was bigger than why what but bigger than I thought, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 37:07

And that was a call. I said, okay, I quit. I quit everything, I sold everything, boon, I went.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 37:16

I was thinking I'm gonna be there for the next five years, ten years, I'm just gonna go. So everything was gone, and then boon, I went. And I landed, and then I was in school teaching all the little nuns, children, and students, teachers, and then uh Joan joined me afterwards, and we are reaching out to the therapist in Kathmandu.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:41

Um, so we started to the training of trainers, not trainer, training of providers who can reach out to the wider community. So that's the beginning of our concept of community-based community.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Community facilitator?

SPEAKER_05 37:56

Yeah, community facilitator model.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

Okay. So how in that the time with when uh you and Joan were there, how long was that time period?

SPEAKER_05 38:07

So Joan was there about six months, and I was there for one year. Then, funny enough, this issue about the TRE Japan started, and my visa in Nepal wasn't renewed. Okay, and I was forced back to Japan. Yeah, and I had to start from zero new organization, now we call it TFA Japan, started 2016, and then this is this wasn't something I wanted or expected, because I was always wanted to work in a field in developing countries.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:49

Um, and I sold everything, I didn't have my home anymore. After one year, I had to go back to my parents' house, renting a room from my parents, and then starting no job, nothing started disorganization from scratch. So that was a bit tough.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

But everything was meant to be, you know?

SPEAKER_03 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:10

But we continuing helping Nepal from remote, right? And then went back to Nepal with uh some of the volunteers from TFA joining us, yeah. And um with the group of us went out and then reaching out, but it's still a lot of try and error. Then I had a friend who is my previous job colleague in Vietnam. She reached out to me and said, I think what you're doing is very interesting. Can you teach us TRE? So she invited me to go to Vietnam, and I started to teaching TRE in Vietnam, and then from there now almost 10 years again. Now there is this wonderful community-based uh community facilitator project is happening in Vietnam. In Vietnam.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

So these are the two areas that I wanted to showcase.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

Yeah, wonderful. What did you also do some work in Pakistan? I mean, I know you supported you supported the development of a of a trainer there ongoing. But but do any any any humanitarian type work there or was that a different role?

SPEAKER_05 40:23

No, I am in Pakistan, we are mainly focusing on the therapist right now.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

I see.

SPEAKER_05 40:30

The very professional uh trauma therapist.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:33

So from more like a talk therapy, they are learning the body-based method. So it's it's kind of another category, but eventually we are hoping we can create some strategy to reach out because TRD is a big hit in Pakistan right now. A lot of people are interested. The simplicity of it.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:53

Amazing. Wow. Well, okay, so I mean, there's a lot of questions, but maybe here's one question. So, you know, Nepal, you had a very long-term engagement, and that was the beginning of a kind of a community facilitation type model. And then Vietnam was another major one. When you look at those two examples, uh what what do you feel what did you learn? Like what what uh what were some of the best ideas? Were there any ideas that you've abandoned? Like what what what what has been the learning curve from those two projects?

SPEAKER_05 41:29

Yeah, so in in Nepal, um I learned a lot from failure. So a group of us international went in to teach Tiari very very very quickly.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:43

Like like disaster response way.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Right? But after we left, nothing stayed.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

People scattered, they go all over. What happened?

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:56

Right?

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:58

Um and this is a typical mistake the humanitarian aid makes.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

In general. Like this is a common okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:08

In general, in general.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

You do something too too fast or something with no plan beyond the immediate and then it kind of dissipates. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:16

Yeah, there is no institutional structure to support that.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

So we taught about six community facilitators of the therapist, and three were certified international providership afterwards. And then one person only now she continuously taught TRD since then, ten years. Her name is Amuna.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:50

And she was a a therapist for uh mainly women on the survivor of human trafficking and and uh abuse and things like that. So very heavy, heavy cases. But she had this insight that TRE can help them. And some of the videos she sent us, me John horrified, said don't don't do TRE with this population because it was so severe, the trauma, you know, human trafficking survivors.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

Sure, of course. Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:24

I said, don't do it, that's gonna be too much. Yeah, but she believed she can hold a space. Okay, and she can use TRE. So we were just supporting her. It was not because of us that she managed, she had the capacity to hold a space for these people.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

I see.

SPEAKER_05 43:44

So she really believed that TRE can help. So she was using TRE consistently, regardless of we say yes or no, she just kept going.

SPEAKER_04 43:54

She was gonna do it. Well, what what is her name? What is her name again? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 43:59

She came to Vietnam uh last year and she showcased uh one of the videos. Yeah, it was incredible, incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we are still continuing. She's in the trainers track now. We are supporting her. And um, you know, we are not having any funding for it. So we are just waiting, supporting. When she's ready, she will do it. We support her. No, supporting doesn't mean financially, right? We are just be there for her, and then for her, that is already enough, she said, for her to keep going. You know, I am a very busy person, so I am hardly engaging, but I am there for her. John is there for her, colleagues in Vietnam is there for her. We are supporting her way, the speed, the expansion, you know. This is the important thing about community-based development. You can bring external money. Okay, I give you this money, do it, do more, do fast, right? And then local people, they want money anyway. You know, we want money too. So they always happy to receive, but it doesn't mean it's make the process better, right? More sustainable. Yeah, it is our ego, and this is our frustration. You want to see the result quickly and see in a big scale.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:44

So in this humanitarian project, I'm doing it as my my life work. Nothing of me, my stake involved, I'm not financially paying for it. I am not having any donor to report to. You know? I feel really liberated to be able to be in this position and then go along, walk along with this group of people who are doing completely with their own will, completely with their own capacity, financially, time, everything.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:19

We're just only there to support when she needs help.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:25

And I think this is important part of community outreach.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Well, it sounds to me like one of the key ingredients in the sustainability in Vietnam and Nepal is this idea that if there are, in a sense, key individuals who have the who are who who can be developed, they need to have the the uh the motivation intrinsically. They need to be dedicated, ideal uh local, um in it for the long haul, and then they need sufficient mentoring support. Yes. But but without these people like um this woman who are carrying kind of this uh desire to serve in this way, I mean, external interventions, you know, if they're designed well, may I'm sure there's probably some effectiveness that can happen, but that's totally different than if there's a dedicated uh local person who has the right qualities and the right support to to develop. Does that match your your thing?

SPEAKER_05 47:37

Exactly. Exactly, exactly. It has to come from them, yeah. Their desire. And a lot of international aid, we bring the issue that they should be working on. We tell them you need this, you need to work on this.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:52

Right? So that is not gonna be sustainable unless they see it, the value in it.

unknown 47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:59

For themselves and then for their community.

SPEAKER_04 48:03

Yeah. So do is you know, you're you're you and you can support as many people, and you have, you know, you have your colleagues, and Joan has been a uh a major um partner, and then people have developed. Um is this and I imagine you're not, you know, you're you're you're you're I you know hopefully you're still early in your in your career here. Um so so you have a lot of time ahead of you. But but what would be the prerequisites for this model to start to work in in many places um or to grow besides only you and several others? How could this model be how how could other TRE trainers, providers, how how could they learn more of some of these principles in a way that that this could become a more common way of uh evolution? What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_05 49:06

You know, up until now, this uh typical uh certification program is not designed for this kind of project, right? Not at all, right? It's too long, too expensive, too complicated, right? So we have to get out of this paradigm from this our standard certification program, right? And you know, people who are training other people to be a provider right now, and maybe some people argue with me about it, but mostly they're training people who can afford it. Definitely, right which means in in the developing country context, it's a very privileged class of people.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Right.

SPEAKER_05 49:59

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's not so easy to find the local champion that I'm talking about directly from that population.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 50:14

Um so the question is how are we going to find these dedicated humans at the grassroots? That is a most important question. Because if we keep targeting the wrong people, wrong layers.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:34

You might put the flag TRE in this country, but it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't reach out to the community, the nationals, yeah, the majority of population who need TRE.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 50:52

TRE is not about sticking the flag in one country, saying, hey, I have I'm a trainer, I have providers, here we do TRE. In my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 51:03

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think, I mean, just brief pausing for a moment. I mean, I even here here in the United States where TRE was uh I mean, I'm not sure it was founded here because so much of David's work was international, but nevertheless, he's based here, the not for private, but even here, um, you know, if I had to take an honest appraisal, how well is TRE serving the grassroots? I mean, some, there have been some, you know, there were projects in North Carolina after the hurricane that we've worked with um intercity situations around Detroit. So some, but but is that but in a truly effective way? Not really. So, so yeah. Um, so I agree with you. It's it's it's um yeah, we're not we're not there yet uh in many places.

SPEAKER_05 51:50

Yeah, yeah. And then most of us think humanitarian aid is just the response, the disaster response, crisis response, the short term. Go in and get out. But the reality is TRE cannot grow with that short intervention as a community-based model, right? What I was saying. You know? Of course, there is this uh shock trauma from the military and then the the police, you know, you can just go and then teach TRE and then something will come out from there. But it's gonna be better if it's institutionalized, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 52:33

Right? And that takes time.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:37

And and then bringing the leaders out of this institution and continue that providership within that institution is very rare. So it's the same way in the community, this individual alone cannot do a lot, but if there is a the several other community facilitators working together in the community level, it can spread. And TRE is beautifully designed, it works for the community, it works for the groups. Right? It's not one-to-one clinical intervention.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

Right.

SPEAKER_05 53:17

So that's why I believed that community setting has even more powerful than clinical setting in TRE. One example, um Jun, the the trainer in Vietnam, uh, we started this disability project in Vietnam. It was 2018, 19, I think, the time. Uh one of our common colleagues, uh Brian, also went there, you know, to support the project, the initial. Um so we targeted, I think it's about 20, 10 male, 10 female people with disability. Many uh people with disability in Vietnam was from the war, war veterans, okay, uh, amputation, also the the agent orange, so it's more like a neurological uh disability damage, right? Um, so it's kind of quite severe group. Um and also elderly as well, they are, you know, they're already over 70s. So we went out and then start working with the group, we modify the exercise, whatever they can do to tire these muscles that we are targeting. We didn't uh teach the standard exercise because they can't do it.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_05 54:48

So they started to innovate among themselves the exercise that we suit to their own bodies, and everybody shook. Even people without legs.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

So we went back, I think about eight times over three months. And then also we're giving them uh homework as a group to shake together regularly. Then what happened after three months? The guy with a fountain pain for 40 years since the end of the war, he could get up on the wheelchair by himself. He didn't need to be carried. And because of this pain, he had a depression for 30 years, it was gone. Wow. He could move, he can mobilize himself, he could use his wheelchair to go to the market, he can start selling the lottery ticket, he can have some money, he feels he's a useful human being, his self-esteem went up, he connected with other guys with a disability. We they share the same painful stories, you know. Share the the the encouragement, all this, it happened in three months.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 56:09

That was incredible, incredible change. I was only there two to two over maybe two times. The first part, and then the ending part. But the change was incredible. And and this person said, We wanted to showcase this project in um Ministry of Health in Hanoi. So I said, okay, we're going to Hanoi, talk to the government, show our our result. And this guy, three months ago, he didn't want to leave his home. Said, I'm gonna come with you. I want to talk to the people, the government people. Can you imagine the level of self-esteem? So the group of us went to Hanoi, hit the government building, and then they all share their stories, their experience. They're asking government to help people with disability more. So all this um change happened because of the community uh connection. This is a ventral vagal connection with the TRE, the releasing, the tension from the body, the phantom pain disappearing, and all this. So I saw this first hand, you know the power of TRE and power of community working together. So so from this onwards, Yun, she totally dedicated to teach TR. She also left NGO, good pay job, and doing this with uh very uh humble uh living.

SPEAKER_04 57:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:47

Yeah, but she's she said in NGO I was doing uh work, uh it was good work, but she didn't see as much direct impact to people's life.

SPEAKER_03 58:01

Like in TRE. Wow.

unknown 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 58:09

So are there any so so if we were going to extract I mean you've already shared some principles. It's about the long term, it's around on the ground people who are motivated. Um fine, not not if you stop at the the layer of the population that can afford uh a standard certification training, you're probably not going to connect with the kinds of people who will become community leaders. Um I'm kind of hearing some of these ideas. So but if we were going to sort of summarize, I don't know, I guess some of the key principles or concepts. If if if if other TRE providers, listeners, TRE pre people who just are, you know, who that who are the people who listen to this podcast, if if if if if we were going to distill some of your thinking of how this could uh this this type this types of approach could start to gain more traction, how would you, yeah, what I do how would you inspire people to start to to follow in this direction?

SPEAKER_05 59:17

I don't have like perfect answer, right? Because I am still in the way, try to continue and become more successful. Um but two individuals, Nepal and and Vietnam, what common is that they both have passion and expertise in the humanitarian support and have an institutional background previously, and now they set up their own organization, and some connection to the government.

SPEAKER_04 59:52

Okay, wait, just uh this just to double check. So you're saying that the the people who became the key leaders, champions, champions in Vietnam and in Nepal, they had an institutional background and some connection to the government.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:09

These were these seem to be useful ingredients for what you're describing. Okay?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:14

Yes. Okay. Because they both worked from international NGO.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:19

So they have this international framework thinking.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:23

And they understand the aid principle from within and from outside. Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:29

But they choose to be grassroots for for their own principle.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:36

But from previous work, they have a connection. For example, in Vietnam, she had a connection in the Ministry of Health. She had a connection with Ministry of Disaster Management. So whatever she's doing very small scale, she could communicate that to the bigger stakeholders. And started getting more and more genuine interest, domestic interest, because everything has to be fostered domestically. International support can ignite that beginning, but it cannot continue sustainably. So she started with our support, but now she's creating her own connection domestically, and that is supporting her initiative. So we as international trainers, of course, we have a huge enthusiasm to help the world. But what we can do is actually so little. If you're committed to be engaged with the same group of people over 10 years, even your your contact with them is very small. Maybe you only go there once in a year, once in a couple of years.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:26

I see.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:27

It's it's an expectation we we create from outside.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:32

You know, you just like we want to do this big thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:37

But I think it's a false expectation.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

It takes takes takes time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:42

Yeah. I'm not denying other people get a big project from corporate, then boom, they do big job. I think that's wonderful. Anything is better than nothing. You know? But my interest and my expertise is really fostering that community initiative.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:02

And they eventually reach out to the people who cannot even pay a dollar.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

Right. Do you do you think that there's a um, and I I hear what you just said, all all it's all good. All is better than all is better than nothing. But you have a particular lane that feels most impactful from your from your experience.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:24

So and the population that I'm interested in reaching.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:28

In reaching, getting to. But so here's my question for you. Do do you feel that there's there is there a place, do you do um in terms of more, I'm wondering if there's is there room for any sort of um a both and or a hybrid approach? And what I mean is for in the more immediate term types of disaster responses, uh, you know, um, you know, we're at a a new phase in TRE for all and um with some new governance and things like that. If you and something that, you know, us as trainers and a provider, everybody, we've we've all of us have felt we would love to be have more effective responses. And sometimes projects emerge that do that respond. So it's not as though nothing happens, but many of us feel it could be more it could be more supported, it could be more organized. You know, there's room for being better. That's that's no question about it. So my question for you, if we if like if we look out over, say, the next 10 years, as hopefully you know, TRE as a modality in all disciplines becomes more and more useful and effective and et cetera, could there be a s could there be a model where collective where we where we do do some uh short-term types of disaster responses more effectively, but but with an idea towards developing into something that carries more into the direction that the the long-term kinds of infrastructure. Could could could could could that be linked together, do you think?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:11

Um definitely. For example, like just look at the US, you know, it's it's huge. There is a huge population need to be served, right? Right. And there is a lot of small institutions that specializing in a certain population who need support. So I think institutional link is definitely um very important because individual they disappear, right? So if you if the TFA or TRE community can find the institution, it doesn't have to be massive, you know, the city base is enough, right? And we support this uh agency based program for those institution based.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:00

Within their range of work.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:03

And then ongoing support. I wouldn't call it supervision even.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:09

Right. Support. For example, I am starting now the the supporting the survivor of uh sexual violence and then the domestic violence in Japan. It's a group of women. They they have their own group to support them. It's a peer support group. So we go there, we teach TRE, we wait until they they think they can manage it, you know. Then afterwards, we are just remotely supporting them. Yeah. And they support each other. It's a peer community, peer support community. But I want to see, you know, it's a very sensitive population. Sometimes, you know, they have this um in incompatibility with TRE. You know, they have very strong reaction after TRE, flat rate association, and then no, you know, retraumatization. So we are a little bit scared of this uh group of population. But I want to see if the peer group is working well, TRE's original intention may work in this community. So I just want to try it and see how we can support this peer community, peer support group from a little distance, but they continue to serve themselves. Eventually, there will be a community facilitator being born, I don't know yet. But then they can reach out to the new members. Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:40

Um I think this is the way I think someone must be doing it. I just don't know it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:51

But there is no shortcut. It's it's it's a trauma healing require decades. That's how we teach in our program, right? Right. There's no shortcut, there is no magic wand.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:09

Yeah. Takes time, yeah, takes often time, takes a solid community. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:16

Yeah. So supporting the group as a whole rather than individuals. And that's the key. And of course it's our relationship with these people is the key.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:29

They trust in us that we're not gonna abandon them. That that is so important. Whenever they need support, they can come back to us for whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:44

Yeah. I I I mean, uh I I liked how you said it's not I don't even call it supervision, I call it support. Um I I I like that. It's a subtlety in a way, but you know, the term supervision comes, you know, from a therapy model, uh, uh and you know, a psychotherapy model, and vi it's it's an appropriate word, and sometimes it means exactly what it does. Um but uh I appreciate the idea, you know, there's you know, even from Dr. Briselli himself, a little bit of a uh a move away from let's let's not let's not try to have all of our uh anchor our methodology uh as a as a psychotherapy. It could be in theory, but that's that has that but but it but it might be more effective not to uh um always link it into that. Um yeah, yeah. So I just was thinking about that. Yeah, I agree. I think there's there's a time and a place for that word, but not all settings. It's not appropriate.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:43

Yeah, it's like uh presence is their shadow at the background.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:48

You know, they know the ownership is is theirs.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:51

Theirs.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:53

And they are responsible, accountable for each other.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

It's not me, it's not us. Yeah, but if there is a trouble, they can always access that support from us. And that knowing is already big enough encouragement for them to keep going with their own activity.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:18

Cool. Well, Cy, I wonder if maybe um just you know, kind of a closing topic could be I'm curious, just if you think about yourself personally and you say look forward five or ten years or or longer, whatever time frame you want to look at, but if you kind of look ahead, do you have any um of I don't I don't know if I would use the term goals or a vision or uh uh what what where do you hope you this path continues to take you?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:52

You know, as far as my humanitarian um career is concerned, I feel it's finished.

unknown 1:11:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:03

As as as an occupation.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

Okay, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:07

I'm living with that experience, but I am not doing it to to live. Okay, and I like that. I'm very comfortable with that position because I I have a knowledge, I have experience, I can advise people.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:24

But I am not doing it directly hands-on like before. Because I believe that ownership is not mine, it's them. So whoever reach out to me and want to start something, I'm happy to give a support. But I am not thinking that career development along this line at all.

unknown 1:11:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:45

I think I've already done enough hard work.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:49

So yeah, so I am kind of um working on other element uh right now, which is um personal development path, and also um I I love being a trainer. I mean, I've been doing this the train, I have been a trainer all my career almost. So just another modality to teach, and then the more I teach, deeper it became now. So I really enjoy doing uh certification training, and um my style is always small, is better, so I only do like very small groups, but I do 100% supervisions. Um I also really enjoy being a provider as well, and and I am developing uh a certain intervention techniques, which is more working with a more subtle body rather than directly on the physical body. So there's a many new elements I'm really enjoying developing right now. And I am also developing my past as a meditator. Um, I am working, um uh I am teaching and facilitating tantra, which is completely another realm to the humanitarian work. But yeah, it's for me, it's all connected, it's about humanity and about expanding our energy, not to be stuck in this, you know, trauma, right? The sexual trauma, you know, relational trauma, all this release and expansion. This I I do that with a workshop with combination with uh with a meditation, breathing, TRE, uh, understanding uh of Tantra, all this it's coming to me now as a main interest. I'm doing the couples work. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:44

So wonderful, diverse.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:48

Cool. Well, well, all right. Well, then I would like to invite you when you're ready, we'll take a little breather, but uh at some point, let's let's do another conversation because I at some at some future time, um, some of those things, you know, TRE and Tantra would be, I haven't, that's not a topic that I've explored in the podcast, or what you're referring to as some kind of uh the subtle body interventions. Um all of that would be would be cool. So so can I can can we can we do a future conversation?

SPEAKER_05 1:14:18

I'm doing the first uh workshop for uh TRE for couples. Uh well, in in principle, combination TRE and tantric approach uh July 20th in Japan.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:30

Oh wonderful. Yeah. So the coming up in July in Japan, in Tokyo, or where where will it be? Yeah, wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:37

Oh, cool. Yes, very cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:40

Uh well, Sai, this has been really informative and so interesting just to hear that you, you know, the the the how your path unfolded and then what basically what you've learned through all that of experience. So really, really interesting to hear all of that. Do you feel that we missed anything? Is there something is there something that's left unsaid or that that we're just I can talk about things forever.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:05

I love talking.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:07

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:08

You know, so yeah, today should be enough, and maybe you know, it's another topic, and another day will be wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:14

Another time. Yeah, that sounds good. All right, well, Cy, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:20

Thank you so much for listening. Oh my very good.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:29

That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drawing.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:36

If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people interested in this transformative work.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:46

And if you want to dive deeper, connect with us or to learn more about our sessions, courses, and upcoming trainings, head over to neurogenicintegration.com.