E25 - TRE & the Nervous System of Leadership with Isabelle Claus Teixeira

For years, Isabelle Claus Teixeira trained leaders on everything you could put on a slide — competencies, values, communication. But one question kept coming back that no framework could answer: what actually creates executive presence? The search took her out of her own head and into her body, and eventually to a floor in Singapore, tremoring, finally getting the answer she'd been chasing for a career.

In this episode, Alex sits down with Isabelle to trace that arc: from a French law student who wanted to be a human rights lawyer, through 27 years as a global HR and leadership-development leader; to the burnout at 34 that first revealed how much her body had been carrying; the day a coach told her "you have to go through the body — try TRE"; her training at the Strozzi Institute and with Dr. David Berceli; and the work she's building now — bringing Tension and Trauma Releasing Exercises (TRE®) and nervous system regulation into the corporate world, where she argues that in the age of AI, our regulated, embodied humanity is the only real differentiator left.

⏱ KEY HIGHLIGHTS

0:00 - Welcome & introductions 

3:28 - A French girl who never planned to leave home 

5:07 - The human rights lawyer she meant to be — and the question that redirected her 

9:52 - Hitting the limit of cognitive coaching: "What is presence?" 

12:37 - Burnout at 34 — and discovering developmental trauma 

16:16 - "You have to go through the body" — first hearing of TRE® 

17:47 - The first session and the answer to presence 

19:28 - "Safety is a felt sense" — the self-awareness gap 

22:55 - The being-versus-doing shift in leadership

 25:15 - Holding space and the fulfillment of the organism's tremor 

28:31 - An hour of tremoring: the anger practice at the Strozzi Institute 

32:30 - Executive presence isn't a skill — it's the nervous system 

34:59 - What makes us human in the age of AI 4

4:22 - Selling resilience, not trauma: the language corporate can hear 

51:04 - "Presence and Self-Regulation for Coaches": TRE® meets ICF

 53:57 - The coaches' burnout epidemic 

1:01:12 - A dream of embodied leadership going mainstream 

1:12:11 - Closing reflections

🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS

Connect with Isabelle Claus Teixeira — leadership, somatic and trauma-informed coach, certified TRE® provider and trainer, and co-founder of Business & Human Development Asia, based near Kyoto, Japan: [add Isabelle's primary link before publishing]

Also mentioned: Dr. David Berceli (creator of TRE®), Richard Strozzi-Heckler and the Strozzi Institute, Amanda "Mandy" Blake (author of Your Body Is Your Brain), David Treleaven (trauma-informed mindfulness), Jon Kabat-Zinn (MBSR), the International Coaching Federation (ICF), and Isabelle's somatic colleague Simba Stenqvist. (Full links in the internal notes below.)

🔗 Join our live weekly classes → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#classes 

🎓 Explore our Online TRE® Certification → https://neurogenic-integration.com/webshop/#cert

📍 FIND US ONLINE Neurogenic Integration: https://neurogenic-integration.com/  Instagram: @neurogenicintegration

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

I'm Alex Graham and I am Celia from Shield. Together we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and scientific research.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how energetic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in. Good afternoon or evening, everybody. And I'm excited to be sitting down with my guest, uh Isabel Klaus Texera today. Isabel is joining us from somewhere outside of Kyoto, Japan, uh, where she lives now. And uh I'm very excited to have this conversation. Um Isabel is a colleague of mine in the TRE world, is a fellow TRE certification trainer and of course a TRE provider. And I'll tell you about Isabel in a moment. But um one of the major themes that I would like to explore and discuss today with Isabel, in addition to hearing her her own story with finding tremoring and its importance for her, is to talk about the role of TRE or Tremoring in corporate contexts, in coaching contexts, which is a major focus of Isabel's, um, and to look at how uh how and why neurogenic tremoring has a role to play in that sector of work. Um and it's something that's a that's an area I've had some experiences and students and colleagues in, but not at the level of uh background and expertise that Isabel does. So I think part of my own um curiosity today is to is to spend some time uh feeling into that uh uh particular thing. So let me say Isabel, let me just say a few things about you and then I'll and welcome you to the show. So um Isabel is a leadership somatic and uh neuroscience-based uh and trauma-informed coach. Uh she's a certified TRE provider and a trainer. She's an ICF mentor coach, ICF being the International Coaching Uh Federation. I think Federation. Um She's also a Forbes Coaching Council member, and she has spent more than 27 years as a senior HR leader, an HR business partner, talent management, and organizational development uh leader across Asia, Pacific, Japan, Russia, the United States, and Europe. Um, at one point steering a leadership development across 15 countries for a global medical device company. Um more recently, she founded a boutique coaching and leadership development practice called Business and Human Development Asia, uh co-founded with your is it your husband?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yes, it's my husband.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Yeah, co-founded with your husband. And um at some point made the transition from I think you were living in Singapore for some from some time, but are now based uh primarily in Japan, although based is the right way to say it, because Isabel is on the move a lot, um uh uh popping up in all corners of the world with uh her activities, from what I can tell. So um so that's great. Um, but in any case, so uh so Isabel, welcome. Welcome to the show. So happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

And I'm really happy to you know have that opportunity. Thank you, Alex. It's uh exciting. I'm not uh as you can see, I don't have a lot of social media presence. So it's always exciting and an honor to be invited to to be able to speak and and share, you know, and uh lovely to actually be with a colleague of mine, of course.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Right, very cool. Well, I think what I'm so interested in, at least as a starting point, Isabel, is um is your background because you know you've been multi, you're very global as a person. I don't know where you were born, but you've lived in lots of places. Um, and your career itself, you know, uh the at least the earlier stages of your career uh a lot with HR and other sort of corporate settings. Um maybe you could just sort of give us as a backdrop uh just a little bit about your your life story leading into your professional journey, and then of course I want to hear how we got from to you know the work you're up to today. But just yeah, start with just kind of the backstory, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, well, so thanks for asking. So I think the first thing I would like your your audience to know is that I had never planned to have the career I ended up having uh when I was studying, or even up to the age of 22, 23, I would never envisage myself as being a global um person, you know, would live outside France. So I'm born in France, in the in Alsace, right, in the east of France. Um I studied, let's go to fast forward eight years old, we moved from Alsace to Paris. That was the first uh change, right? Big change of culture inside France, uh, between the Alsacian um regional culture, which is more uh I would say influenced by Germanic background, right? Into the way of living, the way of working and and the culture, and then moving into the suburb of Paris. Um, I studied law so you know when I was uh I don't know, 18, 17, 18, I wanted to be a human rights lawyer. And uh at the time uh when I started studying law, I actually went into my master's degree, master degree was in criminology. Um there was the trial of the last Nazi trials in France called Klaus Barbie, and our criminal law uh professor made us go to the audience to see that. And then I was like, I want to be a human rights lawyer, and then he turned to me and he said, Well, can you defend him? And for me, it was like, no way, I can't. Yeah, that guy, you know, horrific thing we heard about what he did during the Nazi regime. And then he said, Then you can't be a human rights lawyer because human rights apply as much to the criminal as to the victim. And that was, I would say, I was already in a master's degree at the university in law, and that created a bit of a crisis about oh my god, where am I going now if I'm not going to do this? And the other big interest I had in my life was economy. I loved, you know, even at uh high school economy and all that. And then I thought, hey ch is about human, it's about company. And actually, um, there is a thing about you know employment law, and especially in France, you know, we have a lot of employment rights, it's a very old tradition, um, you know, from Marxism and France being one of the first countries who've implemented a lot of the employment rights that you now find in the rest of the world. So I studied um my last year universities, um, five year of university, I studied um employee relations and human resources and uh graduated and then started as a HR. And that's when my second big transition happened, which is it was unemployment in France, uh, high unemployment for young graduates, and I got the opportunity to go to the UK for nine months um cover of maternity leave in a HR department of a company had done summer interns right in France, and they had a UK branch, and against all odds, I got hired. Uh, I think the chance was two of my boss were Scottish and they love French, you know, so that was a good combination. And here I was 24. I took my bags and went to the train, uh the high-speed train to France and then ended up in the UK. And that's how I left France. It was never planned, never thought through. Uh, and then uh I lived in the UK five years, and then I actually came back to France very little, just for two years uh uh since, but basically since 1996. But now 2026, 30 years living outside of my home country, and I never really went back uh for any substantial period of time. So yeah, worked internationally. Um moved we lived in 10 countries, but I think I work with now I think the last comp the last job I had in corporate, I think we had 55 different nationalities in the in the headcount or in the group of people I was taking care of. So pretty international and I thrive on it. I get really smothered when I'm in a single culture, so I enjoy that very much indeed, you know. And I'm no longer in labor law, I moved you know from HR so back quickly. I was in the hard HR side, so employee relationship unions, negotiation, layoff, and all of that. Move gradually into HR business partnering where we go more into business strategy and leveling leveraging HR tools. So going into a business leader mindset which has a speciality in HR, like you have CFOs are business leaders with finance expertise. Um, and then um in 2018, I suddenly realized you can actually have the best process in the world if you don't have a culture and uh and a vision, it doesn't work. So I moved to talent and leadership development to actually really study deeper what uh leadership is and development. And so I made that move in 2013. That's when I moved, yeah. 13, that's when I went into the talent leadership development and was working in helping leaders. I love that that statement we had at the time help leaders become the leaders their people deserve. And that's really where it started, it's like to grow into becoming a leader your people deserve. And that's how I started developing into you know the art of personal growth development ended up being leading me into uh employee engagement, organization culture work, and of course, executive coaching. That's how I went there. And executive coaching is when I found my limit, and I had to actually find my body back in the whole thing because all this career was very brainy, was all disembodied, I was all in my head, carrying my body carrying my brain from A to B. I was not on the picture, and then when I um I went I started working with leaders and talent development, you could train people as much as you want on skills. One of the things I was always wondering is what is that secret recipe for executive presence? What is presence? What is presence? And I was always really unsatisfied with that, and I think that's where I started looking beyond the cognitive, went into the world of belief, emotions, and all of that, try to go into neuroscience to understand the science of the brain, and then of course the brain is an organ, right? As soon as you go in neuroscience, you are in the body, whatever people tell you, and that's how it's uh I went deeper and deeper into discovering um how to line our three intelligence, right? Cognitive intelligence, heart intelligence, and our intuition, you know. So that's all body and only the body, you know. So that's how I I went adventurous.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Cool. When did you leave corporate a corporate role and go into uh sort of a uh the uh consulting coaching practice role?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Um so we we I actually uh we created BHG in 2012, uh but full-time jumping out of corporate and becoming a uh consultant and executive coach uh 2016 was really the jump. I I came but I came back to corporate for a little while here in Japan between 2021 and 23, not to lose totally ground, you know, but basically 2016, so it's been 10 years now, you know, so time flies. That's all I can say. Time flies, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

Well, okay, so in terms I love that, okay. You you you you um yeah, you had to discover the body and you got became fascinated with with presence, executive presence. What I I'm curious what were some of your initial uh explorations into you know, I don't know if we'd call it somatic coaching, or I'm thinking of like the Strozy Institute, or you know, Richard Strozy Heckler, or what what were some of your early influences or um um yeah, what was your step what was your f entry point into embodied coaching or neuroscience-based uh frame perspective?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

So I think uh I'm going to be looking at it in two aspects. First of all, when I was 34, I actually ended up doing a burnout when I was in Spain, um because the the the environment, the work culture was very hard. And um but now I understand it wasn't so much about the work, is that one of the person I was confronted into that work was um was uh an echo of my one of my parents, and then that's where when I was 34, I discovered that I had development trauma. I had a body reaction, my body broke down, right? So you were in the middle of a meeting, I was having a meet, a normal meeting, and somehow I come out of that meeting, go to my office, my and I start crying, and literally was like, What's going on? So you look at it and you're like, What is happening? I remember my secretary, I was HR director of a head of HR in Spain, came in and said, What's going on? I said, I don't know, I don't know what's going on, and I just couldn't stop crying. So she took me by the hand, she was older than me at the time, I was 34. She took me by the hand, put, got to the next dog doctor. I started telling him what I was going, you know. He said, What is happening? And I was telling him about the challenges we were going through. And then he's like, Okay, take these three pills, come back in one hour. And he gave me antioxalytic, and I was at, what is this? What happened? Right? So that was uh the first confrontation where them, my body basically gave me a wake-up call, right? So at that time, I really had no understanding and no clue about uh the role of the body. It's not something that is in my family culture, not something I had in my lifestyle at all. I only know that I engaged in intensive Pilates at the time. I was doing Pilates four or five times a week, and it took me out of it. It managed to take me back into a state where I was able to make decisions. So I was intrigued, and I was 34. Of course, I had a psychotherapy at the same time that made me realize actually that I had been uh I had development trauma. Yeah, yeah, and that I had development trauma, um which was a big revelation, right? Uh when you're 34 and you suddenly realize your childhood was not normal, that it was abuse, psychological abuse, particularly, and neglect. And that really woke me up to even the word trauma because I would never have considered myself a traumatized person at the time, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Later on, what happened when I actually was in my job? So that's the first encounter I would say that got me interesting. And then in 2010, yeah, 2010, I was actually a global HR business partner, and I wanted to improve my way of listening. And I actually did NLP, neurolinguistic programming, right? And neurolinguistics programmation has elements of body in there. You know, it talks about the body language, looking at how people, you know, kinesthesic, auditive, all these things. So I and you start doing a little bit of uh Ericssonian hypnosis in there, you know. So there was a start. So NLP, I would say, would be the start.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

The starting point, sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

The starting point, and then um, and then I think Neuro, the Neuroleadership Institute of New York, where I did a brain-based coaching certification. Um, then that was all about the science of thinking, brain, cortisol effect, uh, your nervous system, right? And then in that training, somebody told me you should try TRE. And that was you should try TRE. It was an answer to a question I asked, which was I have a client, I was an executive coach, right? 2016, I jumped out, I was starting having people coming to me for coaching, and I had a number of senior professional male, meaning majorly were on the edge of burnout, and their cognitive was overwhelmed. They couldn't think their way out of their situation, their emotion was overwhelmed, either anger, composure, you know, emotional composure issue. And they were like, help me. And I was like, gosh, I'm trained on cognitive narrative therapy, I'm trained on value belief. He doesn't get in. The only way in, therefore, somebody told me in that training was you have to go through the body. Try TRE. And I was like, What is TRE? That was 2016. I had never heard of TRE.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

And that's how I actually think Singapore. Okay, Singapore. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah, the Neuro Leadership Institute, New York Leadership Institute trains, you know, in different places. Um, but they say you should try TRE. And and I was like, What is this? And that's where I actually had my first TRE session. I contacted, I looked it up. Uh, that person who told me to try TRE put me in touch with Michel Beck and uh Jing, they all you know, where uh you were in Singapore, and I had my first session with them, and they were I was like, What is this? What is this? Literally is what is this, and how how do I work with that? Right? So that was this big realization that I was actually totally disembodied, and okay, so wait a minute. So then I yeah, yeah, and I got the answer to what is presence, and it was like this. He came back into my my my sphere of reference. It was it's it's comical almost to say now when I look back, but it's like I was living beside myself for uh I don't know, I was uh 44 at the time, right? 44, 44. I had lived 44 years beside myself, literally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Interesting. Very, very interesting. So so share more. I mean, that's uh that sounds, you know, like it was a major, a major thing. What what do you remember about that first session, just in general? Like what what do you recollect?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Well, so what I recollect was so I uh as a you know uh I would define myself at the time that I was, you know, as many people in the business world, a bit of a control freak, right? Having to control my environment, really believing I could control sort of the power of my thinking. And when I started doing it, is that having the ability to let go and and trust that whatever these sensations were, you know, fine, and I'm not going to be hurt by them, uh, really was um, you know, uh, I would say shifted my whole world literally. Um, what I remember was really not being in a cognitive understanding of what was going on, uh noticing all this energy that I had inside, uh noticing the body sensation, not being able to make a cognitive sense of what was going on. And that um the first few sessions were very challenging because as somebody was uh who is relying, and I still in some way also I'm evolving, um, relying a lot on my cognitive understanding to make sense of my world and therefore feel a sense of safety, suddenly realizes that actually safety doesn't come from your ability to think and control. Safety safety is actually um felt sense.

unknown 20:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Which I didn't have was the start of the I would say the exploration I did then from that moment on, and I'm still on that exploration. It's been 10 years that I keep exploring my own body, my own nervous system, around looking for how do I stabilize that felt sense of safety in my own body from not from a thinking the concept, but really feel sensing it from uh an inner sensation, right? And so that was the the fact. What was amazing at the time is that just doing TRE, I lost six kilos in a month just doing TRE. And then I got intrigued about what is the role of the nervous system with actually my weight. I had weight issues since I'm a you know very early age, you know, I think five years old, six years old. And then I got also very um intrigued by that, thinking, okay, what is this? And then, you know, of course, thanks to Michelle and and Ching, that educated me a lot at the time as my TRE teacher, understanding the impact of stress on digestion, elimination system, cortisol effect on the body, all these you know had been concepts that I understood. Soup because I work in the pharma, so you go to training, you understand it. But to actually move that from concepts that you have as a content understanding to oh, that's what's happening in my body, yeah, and that's how it feels when it's happening. There's a huge gap there, you know. And I could say it's almost the self-awareness gap that I was bridging. I had a cognitive self-awareness, but I didn't have a felt sense of self-awareness. I didn't have an embodied self-awareness. Yeah, exactly. And so Tiari opened that um field. Uh, and because I'm in nature very curious and I love learning new things, then it was like going on a on a wild travel to a place or land that you've never visited, right? It's like going for the first time. I don't know, for me, I can just imagine first time to Argentina will feel exactly the same that it feels every time I'm doing body-based practices now, which is what is going to come out? What am I going to realize? So I'm still in that fascination and excitement. Uh, and also uh just noticing the impact he had on just how I showed up as a leader. You know, not only did he help me to recover from burnout and stress and be a lot more into having better, more clear decision making, improving my emotional composure, but I became aware of what presence means when you're energetically working with your presence. And that executive presence that you have to have in meeting rooms when you are either you're overextending or you're shrinking to fit, how do you actually work with your energy? Starting getting a lot more self-awareness about how am I actually showing up. So the being versus the doing, which is the big shift we have to do in leadership development, is we move from the doing to the being at some point, right? And so it really started becoming a beautiful investigation through doing it on my body first, on how could I support then into my work, those individuals that are trusted by organization to move from a doing role, which is management, right, to now you're gonna become a leader. And a leader only exists if they have followers.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

And the followers will follow presence and charisma, or they see themselves in that person, right? It's a it's a matter of trust, it's a visceral safety mechanism in our body that makes us trust somebody. And so that's where the loop with coaching started showing clearer and clearer for me about that's where I need to go to really help my client and the people I I try to serve as a coach to move beyond the cognitive understanding of what leadership is to the fake sense understanding of what leadership truly is. So that's how it actually comes in. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a it's an interesting in you know, I like as you say, it's fascinating for me to to investigate it.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Well, when you when you got when you got you know, you had your first or second, your third sessions with uh Michelle and Ching, um at what point, like I I don't know, like when I first did it, for example, I I didn't know that this was going to become something that I would do many hundreds of thousands of times. I didn't re I I didn't know in the beginning this was going to be something I did a lot of um over over you know years. Um at what point did it become clear for you that there's a lot here and you were gonna keep going? I mean maybe that was immediately obvious to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

What I'm I'm just curious, you know, how did you no, no, it wasn't obvious. I think it was the same than you. I actually started doing it more for myself, and then I was like, okay, what is that woo-woo stuff, right? You know, it's like coming from the hardcore cognitive thinking. It was like, you know, I'm going to try that stuff body-based and see. Um, I think it became obvious to me when I started um doing the model two, which is leading others, and then I was starting having two things a really strong sense of fulfillment when I was holding space, looking at that organism tremor, feeling like that's my place, that's that's what I want to do. And hearing the feedback of people after the session where they suddenly found a way back to themselves. That without having to go through trying to look for the powerful questions, or you know, what am I going to ask them so that they have that insight, somehow, through that tremoring, when they stood up, generally people, you know, after a while once to tell their story, they have realization. It's like suddenly the penny drops, right? And I had that too. That sense of clarity that comes when you look back at the problematics you were looking at, or you know, taking uh or the drama reducing, right? So I was fascinated by that, and then I decided, okay, I want to know more about it. But then TRE, right, is non-narrative, it's purely body-based. I'm a coach. And I thought, how do I mix two? So I search, and that's where I went to the Strozi Institute. So what I did is actually I was very lucky to be trained by Richard Strozi himself, who was, you know, uh at the time, I think he was 75 and still teaching. So I did the, I decided to undertake the two programs that he has, which is called uh Embodied Leadership, uh, Embodied Leadership One and Embodied Leadership Two. And that was amazing because that was leadership development, three days leadership development, not one slides on a dojo doing Aikido move, which I'm not a martial artist, and people coming in out of there with other people who are all in corporate jobs, and everybody coming out of there thinking, now I understand what it means to actually have presence when I have to hold a space of performance conversation, or having to make a promise and or having to hold somebody accountable or giving an assessment. I know what it feels like in my body to do it. And his technique, it's purely movement-based, right? I was so fascinated by it that I embarked on the whole somatic coaching accreditation. That was 18 months, you know, with a lot of travel to Petaluma. I also then the Stroud Institute also goes deep in trauma, right? So then start talking about trauma, and that's what is in common with TRE is trauma. And then they had a beautiful way of looking at how do you work with when trauma is in a room in a coaching context, about hearing the biography, listening to the story. And that's where what happened, I saw tremoring coming naturally in the body of people doing those trainings. When suddenly there was an alignment or something, you know, one of the movements happened. I had it in my own body too, where at some point there was an exercise. I remember we did the anger practice, right? So we had something where we work with the energy of anger and we stay with it and try to take action with the energy of anger, but not from a place of anger, right? And my body went for almost an hour and a half non-stop tremoring after that. The release was massive, right? And so there I was, I was not afraid of the tremor because I had done the trade, the TRE. And my teacher, Richard, at the same time, said, Good, you've got the TRE training. Let yourself tremor, your body is releasing. Other people in that training who had never heard of TRE and never encountered tremor got scared of that mechanism. And that's where I realized that's the that's how we can actually work with it, is for people not to be afraid of the body reaction to healing. Um, and uh having that true alignment mind body. When it comes, neurogenic tremoring will show up as being that alignment mind, hard body, right? Uh, and it will actually help the body realign literally. And you see it coming in different uh contexts, you know. Uh so that's how I got, and then of course, after that, you know, I did the somatic, I was talking with Michelle and Shing. I was doing stuff on her. I also trained on somatic bodywork with Richard Strozy, so I learned the massage type of it's like a routine of bodywork.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Uh this did you ever I don't know the timeline, but there's two other people I know from the Strozy Strozy world who maybe you know. One is um uh Mandy Blake, and she she recently wrote a book called Your Body Is Your Brain.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yes, yes, yes. I have uh yeah, she wasn't at the same time. She had been graduated before as a master of semantic coach, but yes, I followed and I read her book. Uh Mandy Blake is one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

And the other one is she's she's one, and then the other is um somebody who I did coach training with later. Uh his name is he's since passed away, Doug Silsby.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Uh I've heard the name, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Yeah, yeah, I heard the name. Anyway, just curious if you'd connect it.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Yeah, so Mandy Blake, Amanda Blake writes, you know, her course, you know, uh the body your body is the brain is fantastic. The other person which I follow now, because I've also trained, uh it's not in the biography, but I'm also a certified mindfulness teacher now from the mindful, the UK College of Mindful Meditation, David Trevelin, who is actually uh in the in the foreground of trauma-informed mindfulness, he's doing a really, really good uh course uh online, which goes, by the way, has so much in common with TRE because it goes a lot in the window of tolerance into all the mechanisms and offers ways of actually making people feel safe in meditation when trauma shows up. Uh, but one other thing I want to actually have a discussion is around changing the body scan in the eight weeks MPSR to TRE. Changing the body scan by TRE. That would be for me the integration, which I'm going to be exploring how to bring those two together. Fair enough. Yeah. But yeah, the so somatic, you know, after the strategy, then uh I was invited by David Berselli to join the trainer program. And um, you know, look, I have that passion of teaching. I've been in learning and development in corporate. I really feel like I'm in my purpose, it gives meaning to my life when I'm actually passing knowledge on, when I'm empowering other people. And um when my my so I've I've certified now right in September last year, but what I've had in my my certification, I trained a lot of people who had corporate jobs, who were either in HR or were in finance, or I'd be business unit leader, and they became TRE provider. And again, in my cohort that I have in Singapore, around 70% of the people are actually people who come from marketing, procurement, CFO, HR. Some have the job, some are thinking of transition maybe to coaching or something else. But they come from corporate, and all of them are saying we need this in the corporate world. Why is all of that not penetrating in the corporate world? Because it's science-backed, and it has a direct impact on improving leadership, management skill, you know, all those secret words that if you are in a world of talent development, we're always looking at executive presence. Well, what is executive presence, right? Capacity to hold pressure, capacity to actually be successful in first-time environment. It's all about the capacity, and that's one of the things that Corporate does. We try to train capacity through skill, but it's not, it's the nervous system, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:55

It's a nervous system, yeah. Can you stay regulated amidst stress?

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Exactly, which is for me where now the the loop is coming, and I'm so passionate about bringing TRE and other practice, somatic practices. I think breastwork could be very good too. Around this is about so I have an idea of developing a new uh training which would be looking at the spaces that manager or leader have to hold, not the skills they have to develop, but the space. When we're in a performance discussion or a PIP, right, or ranking, or you know, when you have the calibration session, we are into holding a space where we have to make decisions of around performance. And then there's moments where we need to go in a space of growth, where we have to be the person the you know trustworthy, creating safety for the person to actually dream and project themselves with you in your in their future, right? When you're trying to have a conversation, a stay conversation, or whatever, you have to actually make that person safe. Then we have the others where we have to do goal setting. Again, we're in a dream world, right? But if people are afraid, they contract, they go into compliance, tell me what I have to do and follow. There is no commitment, no heart in it, right? So I'm actually really now in that internal investigation of how can I actually bring all what I have learned now in that amazing world of somatic and I continue exploring with my colleague Simba. You know, Simba is really amazing at helping me stretch myself and go into edges around my somatic practice. And I'm like, that's what I need to figure out so that we can actually bring it to the professional world, especially now. I think it's relevant in the world of AI, where the only differentiator we will have as human beings is to become more human and actually master, truly master who we are holistically as a human being, which is body, nervous system, emotions, belief system, and our cognitive power and our intuition. Right? That's the unique recipe of being human. And so far, education and executive uh so far education leadership and companies are really focusing only on the cognitive side, which is not going to compete with AI. It's not, it's finished.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

The easiest realm for AI to surpass us, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Yeah, exactly. It's already surpassed us, right? No one of us can actually in two seconds answer a question the way AI is now answering any question in the world, right? Create me a 12 year program of this, whatever, or 12 months program today about this. You wait one minute, you've got it. No human being in the world, whatever intelligent they have, will be able to have that access to a knowledge bank and that speed of structuring it, and that speed of articulating it with the world, right? So I think it's really important we we bring that other master, and that's what I I'm I'm a student of it, so I'm doing it on myself first, so I can figure out how I actually make sense of it in my world before I actually and I lead some clients through it, and the results are really good. People really like it, it takes them out.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Okay, so that's my question is yeah, so so that's so I love that, and I love that you're you're you it's an inside out job. You're you're you're learning within yourself over this long time period. But I I what what success are you already having um bringing TRE into um business spaces? That could be through one-on-one coaching work, it could be through present presenting to a community, um, it could be through your certification work where you're training people, but like and I um what I'm already hearing from you is you have a big vision about how much how much for more opportunity there is. But even before thinking about the future, yeah, how how's it going already?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Like, like, like what not well if you want to say not well in a way that it's not scale, it's not scaling because you're right, at the moment it's really on the one-on-one. Um when I actually bring it inside an executive coaching, you know, and I've done it with different people of uh, you know, I I coach people who are at chairman level to C-suite level, country managers, etc. 95% of my coaches are men, right, in leadership position in different types of bags, big, big companies, right? And uh when they try TRE, they love it. And they're like, what is this? You know, it's like the first they like it because they don't have to talk about emotion too much, so it actually cuts the need to talk about how I feel. They go through it, and when I come out of it, we have a really, really good coaching session because suddenly their nervous system has downregulated, right? And then and they understand they can access the cognitive brain better, and clarity comes. So they love it because I I put TiRe into an expediation about how our brain works, how you're into you know, how you actually get into getting control of yourself, right? And they are exploring and they enjoy it. Where where the challenges is as soon as we say, okay, so what do we do about bringing that to your people, then there is this I don't think I will be able to actually bring it because you know HR wants to see proven results and it's a bit woo-woo, and you know, we're not getting people to do things with their body at work, right? So it's it's I think it is we are on the stage where and I think we I I'm really hop keeping my hopes high because I think mindfulness took 30 years. John Kabadzim took 30 years to get mindfulness out of a hospital setting where he was looked at as being a bit woo-woo by other doctors. To now, right, mindfulness is a very rare in big companies like Google, Facebook, whatever name it, they put mindfulness class, right? So I think we are the next wave. We are going to have to, however, I I am a big fan of joining um strengths to try to get in um to create a movement. All right, and then I think what it's the beauty of TRE is that TRE can apply in so many different speciality uh that actually corporates, I think it's the most so for me we are facing the biggest unmet needs, which is the struggle with stress and trauma of normal people, which will not go and see a psychologist or a psychiatrist or counsellor, will not go and see a physio, right, or uh a Pilatist teacher or yoga teacher. They're trying to manage it and and they are left uh pretty much on their own device to try to figure a way out of it. And a lot of them in the corporate world, by the way, a lot of the leaders I work on one-on-one want to work with me one-on-one because they don't want their company to know they're struggling. Because it's not safe. It's not safe at all. So I think where I'm trying to figure out now is how do we actually embed all this um embodiment and somatic practices into something that looks familiar and safe for corporates to let us get in and bring them on a journey on discovering about how they can improve their performance. Now, I've had a few success with entrepreneurs, so I think it works better in family-owned business because usually decision making goes a lot faster. And then if the owner likes it and it does something for their body, they'll bring it very quickly. And I've had a couple of family-owned businesses where it's part of their way of uh taking care of the employee. When they have a leadership, uh a leadership meeting where they'll do strategic thinking, they'll do TRE before and then start going into strategic conversation with the way we use it in the TRE world, right? Um but I think we have a huge uh there is a massive opportunity for us to bring all these somatic and other system regulation practices in the world of conflict management. Uh and conflict management is a big topic in corporate, right? Around managing conflict constructively uh and generatively instead of breaking uh you know decision. And at the moment, we it's really more into the world of using the words, right? Being careful how your words and process, but we're not taking care much of the emotions and the nervous system uh reaction. So I'm starting having some success. Um I had uh in Singapore a technology company who let me do a three-hour workshop and some group coaching uh with these software developments. Uh, we're all up here, and um, you know, we were five with there were three of us in the faculty, and then I'm the one who got the biggest satisfaction score about the relevance for them was to get them to do breath work, meditation, and a bit of TRE, and they were like, that is a game changer for me as a software development. So we are able to have it, but it's very anecdotal at the moment, you know. So my view, Alex, and back to what you're saying, so what I'm trying to do is think about how do we scale up, right? Which is why I actually uh initiated trying to get ICF accreditation on the Module One of TRE, which we are happy to have, you know. So now if uh people who are coaches in the world ICF coaching take the TRE Model One, they can get CCU units. And my hope is if we start Bringing it into the world of coaching that are actually supporting leaders, we get extra champions who can talk about it and bring it. And eventually, um, a little bit like Mindful Nature Job Kabadin, I think we'll get it um coming in as being mainstream, right? Um that's my that's my vision of the future, and my hope behind answer your question.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

No, no, I love it. Have you found, you know, you know, TRE has a funny name because you know, TRE, but the T can stand for two things, tension and trauma releasing exercises, or sometimes we say tension and stress release, you know, we the name actually, you know, by design, this is part of Dr. Bricelli's personality, is that you know, he's actually quite flexible, you know, it's use the right words for the right audience, so to speak. Yes, yes. You know, uh and so I'm curious for you, have you have you um in your uh coaching world has it been has it been useful to lean into the trauma pie trauma-informed piece of it? Or has it been better to lean away from that, like lean into resilience or stress management, or or both? I'm curious how you've navigated that.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Yeah, so on the selling process, no, you don't actually don't lean in. Uh trauma is a word that scares HR people in general and procurement people, right? So we have to be very clear about who are we actually talking to when we're selling products, right? Uh, you're in front of a HR who has been trained, you know. I don't know if you you're familiar with HR, but uh I have my own uh my own opinion about where HR function is going. But you know, I think we're losing more and more the hate the human in HR because um there's been a big trend about HR big data, and uh, you know, HR wants standardized, predictable, scalable process, and they think more as accountants now uh and engineer than actually human specialist, right? Um so one of the things is I usually don't sell it if I talk to HR of procurement because trauma is a world that scares people, right? It scares people uh on the corporate level for two things. First of all, if people start telling they're being traumatized because of the multiple quarterly reorganization we're doing, where people live their life thinking they're going to lose their job, which is the reality in some industries where you don't feel safe ever now with your job, creates trauma. We know that, right? It creates NOVA because it's it's it's really impacting the sense of safety. Company goes, the legal side will be whoa, we don't want to use that word because otherwise we are going to be liable, right? So it's a whole legalistic view of it. So I don't use it. I tend to work really more around the world of resilience and capacity, which is really what companies are looking for. So I'm trained, you know, on talent management tools, right? The corn ferry, nine books, and all of that. What we look at it is that ability to recover from setback, that resilience to self-motivate in the face of uncertainty, that ability to lead from the front, change management when you don't know where you're going, and take the heat of pressure or the heat of resistance. That's all resilience world, right? So I'm coming at it from that side using those worlds on saying that ability to take the heat of resistance. It's not skills, it's capacity. It's your nervous system. That ability to step up, being the first one to actually be the change, the courage, it's nervous system, right? Overcoming the fear, the flood, the freeze. Uh, that ability to take tough decision, you know, and and put people on uh you know on performance management or firing people or under performance, you have to actually take that pressure of the aggression that comes in, right? So it's all nervous system related. So when I talk this way, that's where I hear people saying, okay, you're going beyond, and we're looking. What one of the problems leadership development and management development suffers from is a lack of sustainability of the results. Yeah, so you have performance coaching. I can get you to do something very quickly differently. In six months' time, you're back to what you used to do, right? So which is what somatic coaching addresses is the sustainability of the transformation, not a quick fix. Now, some company wants a quick fix, but when you're looking at when I'm working at the culture of an organization where you enter and change program maybe two to three years, we are building sustainability of results, right? And that's where I think we can use the word resilience, and that's why you say boost resilience versus uh talking about trauma. Now, when we're in a room with people, I talk about trauma because 90. I have to say, I coach mean, you know, I say I coach a lot of people, I've got uh around 1,800 hours of coaching now registered with ICF. Um, 90% of my clients with skill behavioral issues that they wanted to be fixed had a ground in some level of small or big trauma. 90% of those leaders have it, and they don't sometimes know it. Like I didn't know, right? Uh, we don't want to hear it, we don't want to be defined as I have trauma. Um but it is there, and once we actually work with it on saying it's not something that will uh I create an identity or put a label on your head and you're out of the game, it's about accept and now work with it, right? So that's where mindfulness comes, it's the accepting it, so naming it so that we can work with it. And that has actually showed up a lot in uh in some um specific coaching I had I have examples of how it showed up. And TRE helped a lot to create that uh not being afraid of it because we're working without the words and it's the body's healing, and that's the beauty of it.

SPEAKER_03 50:16

Well, so so then that leads me to another question. So, you know, in the coaching world, including the ICF, you know, which has done you know the the the best job of articulating or actually delineating sort of the field of coaching and the competencies and the goals. But there's a common um sort of framework that um uh you know coaching is it's it's it's future oriented, it's outcome based, um, and that uh we don't want to be pass we don't want to be pass focused, we're gonna start then we're we're bleeding into counseling and psychotherapy, and all coaches are nervous about um you know um their scope of practice and this and that. Um and of course I'm a coach and I use uh TRE and other method somatic experiencing, so I figured I figured this out for myself, but but for you, um how do you hold that that and and and and actually even in the approval process of getting TRE uh module one accredited through ICF as uh uh eligible hours, um how how do you how do you explain the role of um nervous system body-based work with within a coaching scope of practice, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Yeah. Yeah, very good. Um so actually the module one got accredited it's personal use, right? So what I have done is I've actually analyzed the ICF competencies. And uh the last review of ICF competency, the word embodiment has introduced in the competencies. Now there is embodiment. So that's the entry point. So what I have done is as thanks to David, who's given me permission, he said do whatever you have to do and change the name if you need to, right? Exactly what he said. The TRE Model 1 has been renamed presence and self-regulation for coaches, right? Um, avoiding vicarious trauma and increasing your presence. And that's based on competency two, five, and seven. So they are very specific competencies in the ICF, and we could go in more detail. I don't have them just under me, but I did that study. There is some where the coach has to take care of himself, the coach has to be aware about his reaction to what is being heard. The coach has to be ensuring they're not transferring their own view on the other person, right? The the coach has to enter a practice to ensure they're holding a safe space and grounded space for the client. The coach has to be able to recognize emotions and reaction in the client, including body reaction. So I took those competencies and really fleshed it out about how does learning TRE help you as a coach to take care of your nervous system so that you come in as being safety, so the whole co-regulation. So I I talked about co-regulation when I did the the paper for ICF, about the need of co-regulating, the ability to recognize in others through our mirror and your own, right? What is happening in the other person's body, feeling them, which is one of the competencies of ICF, right? You asked a powerful question from the world of the coachy. How do you actually feel? You have to let yourself be informed, right? So that's what we do as TRE provider. We look at that body and we feel in our own bodies something is happening, right? We resonate. And that's a training we learn, you know, by doing TRE. So I've really looked at the concepts on LCF and just looked at it from the model one. So at the moment, the model one is really around self-care for coaches, about how do we make sure and also creating awareness around the risk of vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue in coaches. Because I I've just seen some recent static of LCF that there's 90% of the coaches have now reported that their clients are looking for emotional support. People are in distress. There is a, you know, we know you look at the what is being published, there is an epidemic of burnout, of mental health issues, of disengagement in the corporate world. There's a lot of suffering when we are on the coaching side. That impacts our nervous system as a coach when you're day in, day out. Uh, you know, I have three coaching sessions this afternoon. Two of them have just been told they're losing their job. The other one has a toxic boss who is a bully. All they talk about is the suffering, about how they don't get on sleep, they don't know what to do, they're trying to figure out. It's not, oh, I want to know how to sell 20% more. It's about how do I survive a bad boss, a toxic culture, an organization that restructures every 30, you know, three months, where I've had eight bosses in the last six months and I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Where I get my performance management or you know, my team turnover, people are leaving, and suddenly I'm having to function with four people when normally I have eight. I can't sleep anymore, I'm traveling and I'm totally jet lagged all the time. You know, um, that's the reality now what corporate world. So there's really we into working with organisms who are in survival into a corporate context that has become very dehumanizing. Uh and um and I think the coaches are facing that, and a lot of coaches have been trained on doing performance coaching, right? They maybe they've done transition coaching, but not a lot of us, and you know that Alex, are going in the field of transformational coaching, where we really go in deep in the belief, the values, and when are those created, right? The story of Truman, whatever, and where we bring forward people, right? So um there is a really, really strong need for coaches to take care of themselves as a caring profession so that we can be safe in holding those conversations for others without projecting our own insecurities, right? Uh on the on the on things. Now, the next step will be to try to get model two and model three um you know accredited. And this is going to be about how do we bring in, so I need to look at the relationship because this is all about the relationship between the coach and the coachy. And uh, we are non-narrative, right? Coaching is narrative. So how how do we bring that? I you you're using TRE in coaching, I do too. We know there is a way in because TRE brings if you do a tremor, yeah, then the speaking is easier, right? The person comes from a very different place from a grounded place when they start talking and looking at their story. So we are into that, you know. I I like in sabbatic coaching, we talk about moving from reaction to response. That interrupter, that's what TRE does. I'm in reaction, I do some tremoring. Now I'm accessing response, not reaction. Yeah, and that's I think where that's where I think I want to investigate how to actually um put it together. And David has been super supportive in saying, look, do whatever we have. He keeps saying it, right, Alex David. Do what you have to do in modifying so that it actually fits the audience. Yeah, change the language if it's militaries, change the language if they're fire departments, change the language if it's coaches or if it's corporates, right? Yeah, so exciting. I I find this exciting from a cognitive perspective. It's exciting too, because it's really exciting. It really gets us to to think through, you know, concept and and and uh and create you know some uh some model around that too, you know. So it's exciting.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

I love hearing your that your your careful, yeah, because I can hear kind of this careful careful cognitive process around making uh finding the right fit and and and relating it to the to the to to competencies and and and credibly making those connections. That sounds very creative and very useful.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think uh we are back, uh Alex, in many, in many fields. I think you would agree with that in the medical field. Western medicine has compartmentalized and broken our body in pieces like if they were working separate from each other, but they're all linked, right? Um I think in the corporate world and coaching, we've done the same. We think we can actually improve the performance of a person just by giving them thinking differently or change a value from A to B, or be aware of your values, or learn these skills. But hey, that person's brain is in a body, and we can't actually take that one out, right? And that's so cop we are still in that delusion sort of dividing, separating systems. But you know, which is what I think if you look at all the investment on AI is trying to get the human side out of it. They're trying to take the human side out of that cognitive by creating this AI that will never feel stress, right? Uh that will always have an answer very quickly, you know, whatever, except that what they don't know. And I worked as a HRB supporting people who are developing AI and cybersecurity. The only problem is AI is designed as learning from human beings. If you train an AI, AI observes human beings.

SPEAKER_03 59:47

So therefore, AI from human beings.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

From human beings. So now the question is: is it learning from regulated human beings or dysregulated human being?

unknown 59:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Who is training AI? Right? Yeah.

unknown 1:00:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Who is actually coding it? Is it dysregulated nervous systems that are coding or regulated? And I think it's a lot of dysregulated nervous system. And I've I've been in HRVP in that world, I can tell you there's a lot of dysregulated nervous system behind AI.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:17

No, no, I love I love this AI stuff. I have this prediction that in five or ten years, like like that that will become the main conversation that that I and others will be like I I predict that in ten years, if if I if I'm still doing what I do, um coaching work, TRE work, if I if I still interview people. My prediction is that is that the the number one conversation in five or ten years is going to is going to increasingly be what does it mean to be human in a world where where so where so much was offloaded, uh so much of the operated operating structure has been offloaded onto computers and machines and robots. And so now what's what now for human beings? It's gonna be a very interesting um transition. Okay, so I have a question for you. Maybe the closing question, depending on on um on things. But uh what what would you what's w how would you articulate your I guess vision or dream? Like like like you know, you've alluded to you know the success of mindfulness and and John Kabazin. It took quite some time, but then it it it's it's it's everywhere and it's accepted and it's legitimized. Yeah, and you've alluded to that um pathway as being possible for embodied work, nervous system work, tremoring work. Um share a little bit about what what's your what opportunity do you think there is, or what do you hope will happen with with the work that you do? What would you like to see?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

So I would like to see that the the approach we're taking, which are trauma informed, nervous system informed, you know, I put TRE as part of that, right? And embodied, embodied way of developing the management and the leadership of companies, and we just put that irrelevant what industry and size. Okay, become mainstream. I would not want to have our work, mindfulness is in there, but it's still put a little bit on that, you know, that's on the list with the yoga and the benefits of the gym and everything, so that we give ourselves good conscious that employees benefits the corporate wellness program. Exactly, the employee benefit that actually make you tick the box and then you know say, oh no, you know, they're burned out, not my fault, because they had access to all of that, right? It's really around that. I've seen that. I work all up for company, right? Uh, I would like us not to fall in that category of just being one of those tick the box and not really having a commitment, to really uh having us move into the mainstream of we are becoming the enabler for human beings to truly differentiate um companies from each other, right? Uh whether you have a company where your leadership team is fully regulated, can enter conflict in an adult generative way, um, hold true psychological safety for creativity and risk taking to come on and innovation, versus another company where the you know the leadership team is dysregulated, right? Uh I think I would like to see us come into the mainstream as being this is the way through to development, not uh an add-on that you know, afterthoughts, which is really what's happening, right? It's separated. I would like us to directly become really um embedded as being uh the pathway. So, you know, you asked me a question about you're not saying you're a coach who found the body later, you are leading from somatic trauma inform, because we have to actually um go into reconciling and accepting that our body leads the way we think more than our thinking leading the body, right? Interesting top down, top down has a limit, which is the body. If the body decides in our limbic system and our SNS, you know, it's mainly part uh away outside of our cognitive, our CO, our own COO, which is the reptilian brain, right? Decides on its own how he wants to regulate it, right? You know, it's not something I think about, oh, let me salivate more now, or you know, am I feeling good today or not? Right? It comes, we wake up, and you're like, ooh, I'm not in a good place today, and that impacts our ability to work. So if we are able to actually start um really incorporating this as being the place where we start, so I'm starting training people about saying, start a checking in your meeting, do a checking. How are we today? You know, and start from body sensation. I'm actually feeling underweather, and you know, I I have some type of pain and that distracts me of being here all the time. Or I actually am partially dissociative today, right? Because I don't like that sensation in my back, and that means that guys, I'm I'm struggling, you know, holding attention more than five minutes today. And not that something is wrong, but this is the reality we're dealing with. It's normal.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:29

This is normal. Yes, yeah, and then we actually normal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

Yeah, and then we adapt okay our conversation so that we can be heard and that we can make the decision. Maybe it is not the moment to make the decision about whether we cut 25% of the workforce to save money because half of us around the table haven't slept properly. And that we know by the science is telling us that we haven't slept properly is like being drunk and making a decision. You wouldn't actually, you know, drink five bottles of wine and then make a decision. Whether you retrench people in your company, right? So why would you do it with sleep-deprived people around the room? And that's the reality. So I would like us to get to a point where we educate. So I would like us, you know, personally, Alex, my dream is we actually start talking in conferences, which are business conferences, not only body conferences or not only trauma conferences, but we start um because a lot of us in the TRV world are entrepreneurs. You are, I am. We come from that world. We can go and say, hey, this is how I'm a better entrepreneur or a better leader because that's what I'm doing, and that's what I want you guys to do too. Because then we can actually uh serve humanity and the planet better as business leaders and business entrepreneurs, right? I think. Um whether the system of capitalism will like it, I don't think so, but you know, we have to actually create a movement so that it starts deploying. Right? It is. That's that's the question, you know. It's we'll see what happens in a time. I think you and I will long be passed away, but you know, uh, you know, if I think that's the knowledge we have to give that knowledge about the body to the people who are now born and raised into a bodiless world. I I'm thinking of your kids, right? They they're going to end up going to airport where they will never see a human being. We have been used to counter with human beings. Airports are becoming humanless, shops are humanless, factories are humanless. So, how do you grow up as a human being to know how to co-regulate with another nervous system if you're actually ending up being in places where there's actually no other human being around? And that's really something that will change, right? Come, you know, what what what if we have schools which are remote online? Yeah, you're alone behind your key, your computer, you're not regulating your nervous system with the kids in a classroom like we used to do, right? And there's places where they're developing that, you know. I know first place I was working in a company who was trying to develop or is developing smart cities. And um we don't have the main role in smart cities. AI has.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

Yeah. AI has. We're not we're not the smart in the smart cities.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

No, exactly. We're not. We're the the ones who are being tracked, followed, and you know, assisted. Uh but that also we know that we'll get some of our skills uh and then we are going to be probably also more and more isolating, you know. Um I have a whole discussion, I can talk about what I've discovered working in the technology industry for three years. I is at HR and um what's it's a very, very different world that's coming up, right? And so I think also about how do we regulate, right? If you think about COVID, right? Uh I don't know, I've I I was talking to some friend in the UK who are telling me that there is there is a surge um of depression and dysregulation in teenager that they have never seen unprecedented, and the only thing they all have in common, they all were growing up at a certain age during COVID where they were isolated, not seeing faces, and now when they're back together, they the meltdowns, the uh emotional dysregulation, the depression, the anxiety in those teenagers uh is off the roof. We've never seen that. And but that's the impact of that virtual world, right? Uh and I think we need to actually um maybe just think about how we are going to serve that part that humanity, you know, in the future.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:41

Yeah. But I have a big dream that we can make it true, you know. Just have to keep going at it and believing in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:49

Yeah, very cool. Um well, Isabel, very inspiring, very, really interesting to hear, you know. I yeah, you know, my my starting question was how did you go from where you were and then kind of zoom in on the on the particular lanes that you're traveling in now? And I I feel like I I understand that much better for you personally, but also just also your sense of vision. What is what is the opportunity for you know um uh what's the real value that can be brought to um uh business people, leaders in general? And it's the value of uh you know the uh embodied presence, executive presence, a regulated nervous system, and everything that comes with that. So um no, you've do you've described that uh really really beautifully. So I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Yeah, I think I come I come from that. Yeah, I learned that, I have to say, I learned that when I worked in a pharma in a medical device because we were always looking at the unmet needs. Where are the unmet needs? And how can you actually respond to the unmet needs and how do you create champions? You know, a pharma uses key opinion leaders, and they try to get a few doctors to do studies about their thing, and then they talk about how it's good, and then they get manage to actually get the agreement from the government, you know, into the list of medicine. Um, you actually uh mobilize NGOs and non-profit work, you know, to show the results on mass and uh you know try to bring all that system together. So that's really what I'm thinking. You know, I I I've learned something from being in those business. They are clever on bringing product that, you know, I at least pharma they really, you know, they they they they cure illness. But if you look at Apple, right, how did they make a phone that nobody needed? Something that now it's like almost an organ that we can't function without, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:43

Right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

We have looking at their strategy about how do you make it that necessary thing in your life that we actually can't even envisage working leaving without doing our tremor? Right. Yeah, without tremoring, right? And I think you know, Alex, you're in the US, right? Look at how many Americans can not see their life without going for a run in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:04

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

I I live in Japan, nobody's running in the streets, they can live differently, right? Yeah, uh so we've created habits. So, how do we actually bring a positive, healthy habit that is learning about and then the fact that we all have it in our body, right? It's free, it's portable, it's available 24-7. You are independence, you're in your sovereignty, you have your own agency to work with your body and the tremoring mechanism. There's nothing best, right? Uh, that's almost a human rights, and then I'm back to my human rights. Remember, I wanted to become a human rights lawyer, so somewhere right somewhere there, it's deep in there, it's it's still there. I've just gone uh to it in a very different way than just studying law and and go going after war criminal, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:55

Oh, very different way, but uh but an amazing way. Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

It's uh I can see I'm going back into uh uh somehow a circle of coming back to the essence, right? So that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

Wonderful. Well, Isabel, thank you so much. I appreciate all your thank you, Alex.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Thank you so much for having me. And uh it was lovely. I can see we have so many other conversations we could have around that topic. It's true. And thank you so much for having me, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:21

Of course, of course, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:23

Let's keep the good work together. That's it for today's episode. We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drawing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:32

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SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

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