2026-05-11 part 2

Conversation between Kathy & Jesse part 2 — Jesse.

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Transcript

Jesse 0:02

Okay.

Kathy 0:05

Jesse. So it is the day after Mother's Day.

Jesse 0:10

Yeah.

Kathy 0:12

I was just wondering about your mother and your grandmothers.

Jesse 0:18

Oh, my mom and I had a really complicated relationship. Um, she and I are two very different people. Or we're two two very different people. She's dead now. But um oh there were times I mean I mean I absolutely she was she she did the things to provide for for her children, that was good. Um she was extremely pragmatic. I mean it was kind of like okay, for example, so I'm having an art show in Bemidji at the Bemidji Art Center and she she had cancer at the time, but um there was an art opening for the Ojibwe Art Expo, and she decided to come up for that. You know, she she and my dad decided to drive up for that because they wanted to see what that was like. Because I'd never invited him to any of that kind of stuff because I've it just I just didn't want to anyway. Um, but they showed up anyway, unexpectedly, and I won an award for something or other. I can't even remember what it was, no. I think I got it hanging on my wall downstairs somewhere. And they and after the opening, well, you know, while everybody was schmoozing and visiting and stuff like that, she she says she says to me, Saiy, so where's your stuff? So I w I showed it to her. And she goes, She just looked at it and she just said, Boy, I don't think like that. I don't think like that. And I I didn't know how to take that. So I remember asking my dad later on, much later on, after after my mom died, I said, What the heck did she mean by that? And she he said she she meant it exactly how she said it. She she doesn't think like that. You know, it wasn't like, you know, she didn't ask me how how I came about to to the process, you know, how I how I got into the process and what the what the deal was, how how it was that I came up with anything. She just said she just she would make a blanket statement and then it was left left it was left there. So there's no there, you know, it's kind of like so you're I was left, I I was left wondering what was she thinking. And I thought, well, and my dad explained it to me. So I said, Oh, okay. So she was very pragmatic. She was very good with numbers, she was really good with um, she she knew household finance, she she she could do all of that stuff very well. She she kept uh, I mean, it was it was like the house was kept like bitter haunts and gargoyles, I call it, as opposed to bitter homes and gardens, right? You know, and I on the other hand was a really messy kid, so I mean I just kind of wanted it, you know, I kind of basically wanted to keep my room what went what I wanted to keep my room like, and she had issues with that. She did not understand. I was uh I was as I was a little tomboy, you know. I mean, I was I I'd be out there, you know, playing around in the mud and riding my bike all day or going to play softball or whatever, and she was fine with that. But she she'd want to, when I was little, she wanted to put little ringlets in my hair before I went off to school, you know, and she'd make me sleep with these pin curls in my hair and stuff like that. And as soon as I'd go to school, I would go directly to the lavatory and I would wet my hair and I would grab paper towels and it would just straighten them out right away. I mean, I was like, I I had this, I was opposite oppositional defiant a lot of times. She, on the other hand, was like she was just as she was just as determined to make me do what she wanted me to do. So she was kind of the she was a controlling influence, and I was constantly bucking that control. And so when I got older, you know, I mean, she'd she'd say, I want you to wear skirts. And so we'd go through the Sears catalog, okay? We'd go through the Sears catalog, she'd say, Okay, I want you to pick out certain skirts you want, you know, the skirts you want to wear. And and then, you know, and I'd sit there and go, okay, you know, but I but it was like I knew what she was after, and so I'd pick out a couple, and then she'd order them in the Sears catalog, and then I'd come to the house and I'd put them on, and she'd go, Okay, well, that looks good. Then, you know, she was happy to send me out to school then. But in the meantime, I was busy pumping my backpack full of blue jeans and and flannel shirts and things that I felt comfortable with. And I would come home in the clothes that I packed in the backpack, and she'd say, So where is that skirt? You know, it just was fun. I mean, it was just a funny kind of deal, you know. And I'd sit there and I'd go, Well, I wore it for a while, and then I decided to change clothes, which I prompt as soon as I got off the bus, off the school bus, of course, you know, went went, went right into the bathroom and changed clothes so I could be comfortable all day, right? So I mean, you know, she had this, you know, and she'd get so mad. And one time I remember she stood in my doorway. It was it was supposed to be it was it was supposed to be bedtime, and she just stood in the doorway and she just cried and cried and cried. And she said, I don't understand you, I don't get you at all. And I'm sitting there going, and I'm feeling guilty, right? You know, I'm feeling like ooh, I'm feeling real small all of a sudden, like, ooh boy, mom's really bit really, really mad at me. And and she'd say, I don't understand you. You don't do anything I tell you to do. I get you these nice clothes, I put these pink curls in your hair, and you go to school, and you come home with straight hair, and you and you have you and you have you have your other clothes on. I said, Yeah, that's right, Ma. You know, and she was just fit to be tied. And then I remember one time she was downstairs and she was talking to my dad. They were doing dishes after some kind of a party. They'd had it over at the house. They'd had a bunch of visitors over, and and she goes, John, I just don't understand. I just don't understand her at all. I don't get it, you know. And she and he said, No, Jeanette, no, Jeanette, it's okay, you know, just relax, you know. She is who she is, and she does what she does. No, no, no, that's not the way it's supposed to be. Yeah, yeah, it is, you know, that's that's how she was built, and that's what she does, and that's how we're gonna do it. Always there was this tension between us, except there were lots of times when we would have the best times, um, usually doing dishes or doing something in the kitchen, and she'd she'd break out into some kind of a song or something like that, and I figured out the harmony, and so we'd sing, you know, duets. We'd sing duets together, you know. And so, and sometimes she sang the harmony and I sang the lead. At any rate, we you know, we did that, and then a lot of times, what was that word that Emma used the other day when she was talking about gossip? It was it was something related to gossip, but I forget what the end of it was. But at any rate, we did that, but it was useful gossip, you know. I mean, it wasn't like we were busy trashing other people, we were just stating facts about how other people did their business. So usually it revolved around um relatives. So, for example, my auntie Lois had four children, she had three girls and a boy, and Terry was the oldest, and the only thing we could determine was that Terry was a mess. She had chemical dependency problems, she trashed her house, she got divorced. Uh, there was all kinds of stuff going on there. Then we determined that then she determined that um my cousin Debbie was gloony and a fruit cake, and and I said, and I you know, and she gave me evidence, you know, like we she could, she wouldn't let her children, she wouldn't let her children when they came home from school, they she wouldn't let them sit on the furniture. She had all of her furniture covered in plastic, and she would just be like, and she go totally hysterical over practically nothing. I think these people had a nervous problem or something. Anyway, then there was my cousin Anne, and she had she had she was uh married to a husband who he was a model, he liked model railroads, and he studied railroad, the railroading business a lot. He was really into railroads. She, on the other hand, decided that she was gonna spend her all her money on Queen An dolls, and so she had this whole Queen Anne doll collection. In the meantime, they had four children, and there was dirty garbage all over the house. I mean, there were wet diapers laying on the floor. They they neglected they sometimes the lights would get shut off. Sometimes the but by golly, he was gonna have his railroad and she was gonna have her Queen Anne dolls, you know. I mean, it was a just a goofy deal. And then my cousin Donald, he he he he he and the funny thing is they all turned out okay. But um, my cousin Donald would come home from school, and if he didn't do something perfectly, he'd bang his head against the wall. He would just sit in it in his bedroom and just bang his head against the wall until it till it until his forehead was black and blue, because he because he wasn't perfect. He turned out to be a chemical engineer for 3M or something like that. At any rate, um, you know, but we had it, we had all these discussions about all these people with all these problems and everything. And the deal, the the understanding that I had, I mean, what maybe I read more into it than my mom did, but which is likely. But the way I looked at it is like, here, okay, there are people who are examples to you in a good sense, and then there are folks that you don't necessarily they're examples to you about maybe how not to be, okay, like how you don't want to be that way. And so we would just we would discuss that, and then we'd kind of parse it out like, are these people that we'd like to be like or people that maybe we should avoid that behavior, you know, avoid avoid that avoid that difficulty or whatever. Have a little more self-control than not being able to pay your bills because you're collecting queen and dolls, for example. So we would have these deep discussions, you know, and sometimes it would go to the neighbors and what's going on, and what's going on in the neighbor's house, and what's going on over here, what's going on over there. But it was always kind of the way I took it was it wasn't gossip, it was just it was useful information, you know, where you could take life lessons from the stories that that my mom was telling and use them to um, you know, to to either model your life after or not to model your life after. But in any case, it was real clear to me that it was all about social connections. All of these things had all of them had to had to do with social connections and how people interacted and how they how they navigated social interactions through through their relationships and and how you know the way they just the way they did business and stuff. So my mom and I and I mean I remember when my mom was dying. She she'd been uh she'd been going for she already had chemo and she was going for more radiation treatments and stuff. And I remember thinking to myself, I gotta figure out a way to ambush her because she would never ever talk about what it was like growing up in her house. Never. She had a wonderful group of high school friends who stayed together. They were the they were um 12 women, all of whom I I think, well, there was only one person that didn't get married, but all the rest of them did. But still, once a month, regardless of whatever else was going on, they made sure they took time to spend an evening together. And sometimes they'd play penny poker, sometimes they go bowling, sometimes they go just visiting at somebody's house at someone's house, you know. They'd just do all that, and it was like that was really important for my mom to make sure that she maintained those connections. And she did. I mean, I remember when I went to her funeral, she all the remaining people, the people that were still living, all showed up for my mom's funeral, and they all knew me by name because they'd seen me so many times before. And you know, and they were just genuine, genuinely good people. I mean, really good people. So she was she she she valued her friendships and she she she wouldn't let anything interfere with them, and she wouldn't let anybody get in between she wouldn't let anybody uh uh outside influences get between that and that loyalty that she felt to that group. But anyway, she um I I decided that going back to the story, uh I decided I was gonna try to ambush her. So I went down there one day, my dad was gone, and she'd just gotten home from from going for treatments and stuff like that. And I walked into I kind of came up from from Duluth and I came down that visited her, kind of walked in the door, and I said hello, and she was amazed to see me. But at any rate, I said, Yeah, you know, I just kind of had a feeling like maybe you'd like a little company today, you know. Try to put it in a kind of down low kind of way, you know. And she just sat. She just laid she was lying on the couch, and she was with she was still very with it then, and she she she stayed with it all the time, but she she was still able to talk then. And um, so you know, when she was just starting to get kind of sleepy and kind of relaxed, I decided, uh I'm gonna just ask a slip a few questions in there. And it didn't take her long at all to figure out what I was doing. She goes, and she just went zip, she closed it up and said, Nope. She, you know, I it was like that. She was very self-contained. She would only give, she would only tell so much. But there the only thing I can think of is that it was simply because she was self-contained, or because there were some really trem- I mean, she did one time share that my my auntie my auntie barb, her sister, had thrown a p uh had had thrown a pair. She's my my auntie Barb had a nasty temper. And so she she'd get mad about something and she'd pick up whatever sharp object was available and throw it at people. And you know, she just narrowly missed my my mom's head with a pair of big, you know, great big pair of sewing scissors, you know. And it let I mean and she threw it so hard it ended up sticking in the woodwork in the house. You know, and when you went over to my auntie Barb's house, as dear as she was, I mean you'd find the whole, you know, you'd find b various places around the house where you know they're the the wall needed the dry wall needed repairing because she had thrown something up against it, you know. She had a nasty temper. But um, and the two of them did not get along at all. As a matter of fact, my mom, when she was in high school, she went to go, she she got a secretarial job through an older friend of hers at Fullerton Lumber Company. And Mr. Fullerton asked my mom, you know, she apparently he they must have known something about what was going on at the house. And so they asked her if she wanted to go, if she wanted to stay with Mr. Fullerton during the summertime and help take care of their kids and just live there, you know, for a while and stuff. And my mom, my mom decided to do that. So she left, she she stayed in high school, but she left home. So um, there must have been something real serious that went on there that she just did not want to share. And I just thought I was a lot more open about stuff than she was, and I I could not understand. I I was always trying to figure out what the big secret was, you know. It went to it went it went with her when she went, she took it with her. And I'll never know what it is. I can only I could I could guess, you know, from some of the stuff that I knew about what was going on over there, but I didn't know how bad it was. And it must have been pretty bad for her to have clammed up that hard, but I never knew for sure. And yeah, I was lucky because I I was lucky because I had both my grandmas, both my my my dad's mom and and my mom's mom. And I had my grandpa, my mom's dad for a while, just for a short while. And then I had that the the Warners, and they they they were they were extra good to me all the time too. So it was kind of like I always feel bad because there's so many people in the world that never get to have that, they just never get to have it. They never get that that kind of the the there's a guidance and a nurturing. I mean, there's a guidance and a kind of a spoiling, you know. I mean, if you can nurture somebody, spoil them, and still give them guidance at the same time. That's what grandparents do. Or good, you know, I I was lucky because mine were really good grandparents, you know. They they they they love they loved us. But boy, my mom and I, oh boy, we'd go after it. She never one time she well there was a while, she'd you know, slap me one face across the face one way and slap me across the other, and that was just fine. And she'd say, I don't understand you at all. And I said, Well, I said, Well, guess what? It goes both ways, Ma. Just don't worry about it. So we're two different people. We just do different things. But she was very good. She liked to play, she liked to play in the kitchen. She was always cooking, doing something, making something, fixing up. She liked hot dish. Anyway, she liked hot dish. And uh, so she fixed a lot of hot dishes and lots of cookies, lots of good things. And she did, she she she was a good homemaker, she was a good housekeeper. Eventually, she got tired of staying home, especially after my me and my brother left the house. He she got tired, tired of being at home. So she went back to work as a secretary, and that and she did really well at that. And she all the people that uh at her places of employment always loved her, and she she was happy to be out of the house and making making a little extra money for herself and whatever for the fam. So it was good, you know. Oh yeah, I was lucky. So where did you grow up? Minneapolis. Um, I lived in Minneapolis. And it was in the south side of Minneapolis. So it was for a while I was living with my grandma, who she lived on 25th and Harriet. And then my other grandma lived over by Minnehaha, by Minnehaha Parkway, on the way to the on the way to the airport. She lived over kind of closer to Southeast. But the whole family, I mean, the whole, I mean it was really strange because it's like all the family. I mean, it's like my all my all my all my well, not not that's not exactly true when I think about it. My uncle, my auntie Helen had moved to um, she had been in the army in 1935 in in Hawaii. But she got out of there before Pearl Harbor, which was a good thing, I think. She she fell in love with a woman while she was in Hawaii, but she she was one of those people who was kind of one of those well of loneliness kind of closet dikes, you know. And always kind of really missed her friend. But um, and every once in a while would speak about her, but they never stayed in touch, and I don't know what happened to her friend. But but it's like somehow or another there was some kind of special thing that went on there. She was the oldest of my dad's siblings.

Kathy 20:57

Why did you come to northern uh Minnesota?

Jesse 21:01

Well, let's see, I first started out. I needed to get out of town because I I would my my family was kind of we were in a in a stressed out kind of state of state of mind together. I was doing a lot of stuff that I probably should not have been doing, but I was doing it anyway, and they didn't like it. And I decided when I got out of high school I need to go, I need to get out of town. So I thought all the time during the time I was growing up, we'd always end up going up the North Shore. And my auntie and my grandma would rent a rent a cabin and we'd go up to Golden's Sugar Beach Lodge and and or Sugar Beach Cabins, and we'd just sit around in there for about a week and just go visiting all over, go exploring and stuff. And I really liked it up north. So I decided to go to Um D. And I went to Um D. And I was still a mess. Yeah, I worked, I worked for uh the Department of Education for a while. I was doing um I was working for the Drug Education Information Center at the time. And at the time that they just passed a law in the state of Minnesota that said that you, you know, if you're gonna be an educator, you had to you had to know how to do crisis intervention or drug drug um drug intervention and stuff like that, because there were a lot of kids that were kind of you know doing various kinds of chemicals or whatever, and they'd walk into a classroom and you'd kind of need to know what was going on there and how to how to straighten out the situation before things got out of hand, right? So that was my job. Um I was I was the I was the I was the expert. I was the I was the I was the drug expert. And I said, uh-huh, that's right. And so, you know, I would do a lot of role plays and stuff like that, and we teach classes to the to the people. And I mean, I got you know, I'd got the job done and we traveled all over doing that, and then I got I I took I took a lot of detours getting through there. It took me seven years to get through Um D. But I made it through after I I had to drop out and get a job. I was working at Detox In Superior, and then for a while I ended up in uh in uh psyched a couple of times because I got kind of I got kind of goofy. So I took a little while to get back on track. And then but when I got back on track, then I just went back, finished that up. Decided to stay in town because I didn't want to go back to the cities, and I mean I really missed the cities, but I but it really I'd already kind of started making a uh you know a life for myself up north. I liked the fresh air, I liked going to the lake, I liked um going on you know weekend camping trips, I liked going for long hikes in the forest, I liked all the things that Duluth kind of had to offer. So I stuck around for a while until the job market in the in the 80s dried up entirely from some other kind of economic stuff that was going on. Moved back down to the cities for like three years, got I worked at I worked at Target, I worked at the dog pound, I worked as a taxi driver, I got a job as a bus driver. I was doing all these different kinds of jobs and everything. Well, I got I got banged up on the bus. I got a kind of a major injury that that kind of took me out of that business. So when I got my workers' comp settlement, I decided, you know what, if I got this little chunk of money here, I'm heading back north again. So I did. And I just moved to back to Duluth, settled in, and then I lived there until like 1991, because I I went there. I went through I did a whole nother course in um at UMD. I got my my um minor in I got a uh a minor in American Indian Studies, and then I almost finished up my minor in um women's studies, and then I got over to St. Scholastica and I got into the education program over there, thinking like maybe I should do something with all this education I was getting, you know, like I should maybe go teach somebody something. So I got into the program. The nice thing was that they paid a $325 stipend a month, plus they paid all your books and fees and all the rest of that kind of stuff. So I went over there and got um almost I was one course short of getting a degree in Indian education. And then um I but the problem was that I was still didn't have enough money, so I so I started working for Pony Express courier service. So I was driving all night long. So I drive from I drive from Duluth to Grand Rapids to Hibbing to Virginia and back to Duluth and I had to make that loop. I had to meet meet somebody in in McGregor first. Meet him in McGregor first and then drive up all the across the range from the West Range all the way over. And then I could come back to Duluth and I had to be at Duluth back in Duluth at at the first bank building by 6 30 every morning. Uh and I said, okay. So I was doing that, but I couldn't go to school and then drive all night. I mean, it was like I was trying to do both, you know, and then the kids at school I'd sit there and go, I'd put I'd put a note on the in the Indian education, in the Indian study lounge. I'd sit there and go, okay, could you could somebody please wake me up at 11:30 this morning because I need to go to class? And they'd kind of come, I'd be sleeping on some hard pew that they'd pulled out of the chapel or something, and they'd come around, kick me good, you know, kick me in the feet. I said, Don't mess with my head because I'll bite. I mean, if you let me have it in the feet, okay. They'd hit me in the feet and I'd get up and I'd go to class, but I just couldn't do that anymore, you know. So I started looking for another job, and a friend of mine um was working at the res up here in at Boys Fort. And he goes, Hey, would you would you want a job as a mental health worker up here? I said, Yeah, why not? I moved up here in 91 and then I moved out here to the farm in 90 92. And I've been here ever since. Just because I like the land and I like being outside and I like the fresh air and I like being able to walk and do whatever I want to do on my little 40. That's what I do.

Kathy 27:48

You manage to get by always enjoy life.

Jesse 27:52

One way or another. One way or another. Whatever it takes, you know, just make it happen. You just kind of go from one job to another job, hoping the grant money come in, hoping this, hoping that, you know, like there was there was one time where I went a whole year without any income whatsoever. And I had no insurance. I mean, at that point in time, that was before Minnesota care. I had absolutely no insurance. So wherever I wherever I went, I was extremely careful about every step I took, because I thought, you know what? I break something and I'm done. I am cooked. I'm gonna lose everything.

Kathy 28:34

How did you um how did you become politically active?

Jesse 28:38

When I was a kid, I was always kind of on a I was always kind of a sensitive kid, you know. I was I mean, I was rough and tumble, but I mean I but when it came down to actual, you know, things that went on with people and stuff like that, I I had I uh I kind of always had a big heart, you know. And but the the one thing that really tipped me off was I remember one time the the highway department that they were they were doing some kind of haggling at this at the state legislature and they were talking about building uh a freeway through our neighborhood. And the thing is about our neighborhood, I lived in a in a in a uh lived in an area at the time that was kind of suburban, and so we had a railroad track that through there, and then there was a whole lot of swampland. I mean we had we had deer, we had foxes, we had raccoons, we had we all different kinds of turtles, all different kinds. Painted turtles, snapping turtles, mud turtles, all kinds. We had all this wildlife in there and a ton of birds that lived back in there. And I remember they wanted to they wanted to run it run a freeway through that land. And I remember I was talking to my dad one time, and I s and I I was so mad, I was so mad when I found out about that that I could not I could not wrap my head around that, and I could not understand why someone would want to destroy the earth that way, and why they would want to steal all that life that was in there. Because I learned a ton every time I went down there, I'd always find something new. You know, there'd be rabbits, there'd be coyotes, there'd be all kinds of wildlife back in there. And I could not understand why somebody would be so, you know, dull-headed to do something like that. And I remember getting it, you know, my dad and I had to go someplace, and I remember getting in the car, and I remember just slamming my fist on the dashboard, and he goes, What is going on with you? And I said, I am so upset, Dad. I said, I can't believe that they'd want to put a freeway through there. And he goes, Yeah, well, you know it is what it is. And I said, Well, no, it isn't what it is. Why is it right? Why can't why did they have to do that? Well, there were enough other people too that were upset about that they changed the route of the of the freeway, which turned into 394. It went out that way. But at any rate, I just I just I mean, I was so upset, and I thought, you know, somebody needs to do something about this. Somebody can't, we can't just we can't let this sit the way it is. And then, um, not unlike some other people that I know, uh, the 60s came along, and I remember being in the fifth grade, and Miss Soderholm, our teacher, came in and said in the afternoon, they said, Oh, John, you know, John Kennedy got shot. And that was kind of like one thing after another. It's all this violence that was going on. Then there were all these people of color that were, you know, black people, African-American people. Um, the American Indian movement came along. There's the women's women's issues, and the whole business about um, you know, being able to move being able to do to do things that I mean it back in the day, my mom couldn't have a credit card by herself. She couldn't have her own checking account. She couldn't have her all, you know, she couldn't have so many things. But then there was there were all these laws that you know started kind of changing slowly, but on each and every one of them, I decided, okay, I gotta do something about this. At one point in high school, I ended up um getting hooked up with this neighbor who was working up at the Way Community Center in Northside Minneapolis. And that was when um Spike Jones was up there, and that's that was interesting. Yeah, and uh that was a good experience, though. It was really good. So I I remember doing it, it was kind of like a summer internship kind of thing, working at the at that community center up on the north side. I was also part of the part of the Dyke community, and so you know, there were all kinds of activities that were going on in town in Minneapolis that I wanted to be be part of, and so you know, I'd go to the women's coffee house and I'd go here and I'd go there. Pretty soon I found myself marching, you know, with in the civil rights marches, and then it was the women's rights marches, and then it was the the the gay rights marches back in the day, that's what it was called. And I found myself working at youth emergency service as a volunteer every every um week I'd put in two shifts at youth emergency service, and that that gave got my eyes wide open because there are a lot of people that were working there who were very involved in all kinds of um activities and movements in around town. So I wanted to do that. So it was kind of like it's it started out, it started out with my neighborhood, and then it kind of built into something a whole lot bigger than that, you know, a whole lot bigger. I will always defend the underdog. I mean, I'm it's like you know, no need to fear underdog is here, you know. And I have often felt like an underdog myself, so it's like I don't have a problem with that. If I'm if I'm doing for other people, I'm doing for myself as well. So it's not entirely altruistic. You know, there's a reason, there's a reason why everybody does what they do, much as they might think it has to do with with other people, as much as much of the time it has to do with them too.

Kathy 34:27

What was your relationship to dyke culture? And like what would what did that mean to you? And how do you think that's changed? Or was that a really core piece of your formation?

Jesse 34:39

Um, all I knew was that I was really different and that I liked women. That's all I really knew. At the time that I was growing up, I really didn't know what to call it. There was no one around me. People would say, I think she likes girls. And it's and I'd always get the feeling like that was a bad thing, right? And I'm sitting there going, Oh, but I like that, you know. I mean, it was kind of good that I was kind of an odd kid, you know, like an oppositional defiant, because I was just sitting there like, yeah, but I like that though. What's wrong with that, you know? But nobody ever, I mean, I kind of slid by a lot of the time when I was a kid. I mean, uh, you know, other than my mom calling me out on the way I wanted to wear my hair or the way the way I dressed or something like that. As a matter of fact, it kind of came as a really huge surprise to them when I came out to them one Christmas when I was home from school. And uh that didn't go over real well, but that's okay because my my cousin wasn't married and she was pregnant too, so we all worked out. It all worked out good together, you know. And then and then it was kind of it was real kind of slow. Actually, when I got to UMD, it was actually Judith Nimi. Somebody told me that she that she liked girls too, and I just went, oh, cool, you know. And I remember going into her office one time and I was talking with her, and I started talking with her and everything. She said, Do you do you mind if we exchange phone numbers? I said, No, that's okay. That's fine. Well, well, she ended up calling me up one time. It was on May 1st. I remember I mean June 1st. She was have there was a women's center in Duluth, and it was a it was an old building. It's kind of where the free clinic used to be. It was up on in the central hillside there, kind of by Lake Avenue or somewhere around in there. Way up the hill. I all I remember is a big long walk up the hill. But there were a whole bunch of women that would get together there, and that's really where I started feeling real comfortable. Because I mean, there are all kinds of there are umd professors there, there were all kinds of other women who are real active in the women's community and stuff like that. And then, you know, my my my my my keystone person that that connected me with all of that was was Judith. And then before I knew it, I was starting to read all this dyke literature and I was starting to listen to all this dyke music, and I'd be going to all these dyke parties and everything. And I I just kind of always sit back and kind of watch and and you know, occasionally I'd participate, but I was just kind of what uh trying to figure out okay, like where where do I fit into all this? Because a lot of times I felt like I never fit into anywhere. I was kind of like always the always the round peg trying to go into the square hole or the other way around. My little introverted self just sat there and went, you know what? Sometimes it's just better to observe and just kind of watch things. And if people come up and speak to me, well then I'll speak to them, but I'm not gonna that wasn't real outgoing that way. But I watched, and I watched and I learned, and it was like that was one of the things that one of my grandmas taught me when I was little. They said she said, you know, you got two eyes, two ears, and only one mouth. There's a reason for that, you know. I guess she'd say I said, Oh, I get it, you know. So the whole idea was, you know, so I learned to I learned to l listen and learn and watch and see how it was that people and then I sat there, went, you know what, I I do those things. I did that. Oh, I've done that. You know, this is how I behave. You know, it's like this is pretty soon I started feeling kind of comfortable. You know, it's like I still don't do a whole lot in the dike community, even here. I mean, there are a whole mess of dykes around here that nobody knows about, but I don't do a whole lot in this community, but I because I'm just not a community kind of person, but but I know that they're there, you know, and that's you know, and when we see each other, we are we say hello, you know, and we exchange nice things together and stuff like that. But I don't feel that that need for togetherness quite so much, and yet, you know, I'm real comfortable with who I am, and it's only because of um folks like that. And then after a while, it was kind of like, okay, you know, it you know, so once it once I got comfortable with the whole notion, I just sat there and went, okay, dude, you're gonna take me or leave me. But either way, I'm good. It's not gonna change my mind, it's not gonna change the way I do business. I am who I am, and you know, you're gonna have to like it or leave it. But mostly I was able to kind of get by, even though I can be kind of introvert, I'm also can be very friendly. So that worked that worked out to the good for me. I mean, I got lucky, I got lucky that way. Yeah, so it was like I didn't actually know that anything ever like that existed. It wasn't until after the fact when I got into the whole um learning part of it myself that I started understanding, you know, that my what my auntie was going through, my auntie Helen when she was over in Hawaii. I could not understand why was she so unhappy and why'd she keep mentioning her friend by name all the time and how she would really wished that she and her friend could have stayed together and stuff. And I thought, well, uh uh, you know, I I didn't know what kind of a name to put on it. But then I did, and then I sat there and went, ah, and since then I have a whole bunch of other people in my real in my in my family tree that have turned out to be dikes as well. So it all worked out the way it was supposed to work out. You can't change who you are, you just gotta go with it. Yep. So I mine is a different story from many people's because I just don't like I don't like going to parties. I don't like being with a lot of people all at once. It makes me feel funny. So I I just tend to kind of be a free bird most of the time. I don't I don't I don't feel bad for people. I mean some people really like that, and I I I will never ever tell somebody, whoa, that's weird, or well, I don't like that, or whatever. I think that that's they are being who they are, and I'm being who I am, and it works for me.

Kathy 40:45

So what do you feel? Um like how do you feel these times are so different now? So you're you're kind of putting yourself out there a lot. I don't know if you know you said you've always been kind of politically active in your own way, standing up for things you thought you needed to stand up for. But I mean, I see you're just like really throwing yourself out there right now.

Jesse 41:08

Yep.

Kathy 41:09

Um, what could what's motivating you? Like, how do you feel like this these times are different?

Jesse 41:14

I cannot abide it. I cannot abide this crap that's going on here right now. I just can't do it. I I could sit around and read emails and read read news, you know, watch C-SPAN and you know, hear hear about all these things that are going on. But it got to the point where I was starting to feel like super anxious, and I was starting to feel like I was super angry all the time, and I was like super agitated all the time, and I started thinking like, you know what? What you're doing right now is not helpful to you, it's not helpful to anybody else. You need to go you need to do something with that energy that's spurring you to get out of here and to go to go do something about it. I didn't know what to do, but I did know that you know Northern Progressives had been around for a good long time, and I had gone to some of their meetings before, so I kind of I just thought, you know, being a being alone with all this stuff is driving me nuts. I need to I need to be putting my energy into something that's useful. So I decided, well, okay, let's go try to be useful somewhere. And that was the group that I originally hooked up with because that was the one that was here. They're they're really good people, and I I learned a lot, and I'm still learning on a more independent kind of level. But I just can't, I can't, you know, like when I see something that's going on that's as goofy as this, I'd rather not be on earth at all than than to sit around and watch it all happen, watch it all start crashing down and not do anything about it. So I decided, okay, well let's go do something then. So I'm trying to make myself useful.

Kathy 42:50

Who are a couple of uh political leaders, activists that really that you admire that frame a way of of organizing or a way of moving forward or a way of resisting that would offer tools for us today.

Jesse 43:03

I think one of them would be Adrian Rich. Um, even though she wasn't really well, she was an activist, but um, she was also a poet, and her poetry speaks volumes about conditions that women used to live in and where where we went along the way through history. And I think the other one, let's see if we're gonna if I were gonna pick another one. I keep falling back on Malcolm X. I got this thing about Malcolm X. I mean, he actually, I mean, he was a he was a real live wire, he was a real mess there for a while, but eventually after he he made that pilgrimage to the Hajj, did a ton of personal work. He did a ton of personal work getting out getting out of getting out of his mindset and still being able to stay independent from some of the other some of the other negative people in the movement that were kept trying to pull them in and kind of try and pull them in and kind of keep them in the fold. And he said, no, I can't, I can't abide that, you know, so you have that independence. And so I would get I would have to say that between you know but there are so you know like there's so many writers and poets that that speak to me maybe not activists in the usual way, but definitely people who open your mind, who who expand your consciousness if you're paying attention, um people who hit you in the you know it's not just and it's not just the stuff that hits you in the head, it's the stuff that hits you in the heart, in the soul. And it's like I s I see many of them as being activists as well, whether they identify it as such or not. So those are two people that really stand out to me that may that that matter to me. There are people in the American Indian movement that had that had some the the methods may have been different from the way I would have done it but there were a lot of real good ideas that went on in there a lot of organizing that took place in there got work done and they mean they they maintained their pride and they maintained their dignity and they demanded respect from people and they got it one way or the other you've talked about before having some um relationship to Ojibwe culture. We were both in South Minneapolis I mean like you said the American Indian movement was something that was around around us and then living up here well I've got relatives on both sides of my family who are of native descent my my grandma on my dad's side was and my grandpa on my mom's side was he was Metis from from Canada and my grandma her mom was was half and so when I was living at my at my at my dad's mom's house she made sure she she made her she made her living as a slipcover maker she she would go around making slipcovers for people's furniture she'd go all over the city. I mean she'd go I mean back in the day when Columbia Heights was just a little dinky little town she'd drive up to Columbia Heights she'd drive to she'd drive out you know she'd drive out to Bloomington she'd drive down to near Egan almost you know she'd go all over the place and people would hire her because they she could make slip covers like nobody's business. She decided after her husband died she decided that um that was a tragic accident and there she still had three kids at home when that happened he was working grandpa was working at the stock or the um grain exchange in Minneapolis and had just bought a seat on the on the grain exchange and then he was driving down the road one day and he hit a bump on the road and there was no seat belts in you know and he banged his head on the top of on the on the top of the car and he ended up with a brain hemorrhage and he died in of a brain hemorrhage. Anyway so she was left with three kids and she didn't know what to do. She she ended up going they always said back in the day if you had a mental health problem or something like that they'd say oh she's got a back problem that's how come she's in the hospital they're just checking her back you know no big deal she she one day somebody came in and told her said look you know you can sit around and feel bad about all this stuff or you better get you better get busy finding something to do because you got to figure out how to pay off that seat because it was a binding deal he she's she still had to pay off his seat even though he had just he he had just gotten it but it was a loan kind of thing. So she had to pay that off plus she had a house to take care of and plus she had three kids. At any rate she was she was uh she was pretty you know there were a lot there's a lot of mythology around her but a lot of it was true too so but at any rate when I was living with her one day she she liked to do watercolor painting so she'd go in the kitchen she'd be doing wallet watercolor painting and she said you know we need to do something for you too and I said yeah what's that and she goes well do you want to learn how to do something and I said yeah I said I like to learn how to do things she goes well she pulls out this little this loom for beading and so she taught me how to make things on on the loom with these little tiny beads and stuff and I ended up having such a good time with it she goes you know and she also had a whole bunch of plants in her house and a lot of them were were herbal plants or like medicine plants and all these things that she had learned when she was a kid she brought them with her you know into this marriage with this Anglo dude you know so she always had these plants around and stuff like that and she'd go around she'd tell me you seem like one who could learn about plants I said okay so she'd go around and introduce me to each plant to tell me what they did you know and she had me doing bead work and she'd say and then she told me some stories about what it was like for her growing up but she said you can't tell nobody else because nobody else needs to know this just you need to know this I said oh okay the rest of the family is just kind of real quiet about everything and I'm just I'm the one who kind of brought it brought it brought it all out you know into the open they still don't talk about it but at least they know it's there you know I'm kind of like the lightning rod I guess you know the the the one who does the communicating about that but at any rate so she she she made sure and she told me all kinds of stories about what it was like for her mom and her grandma you know and her grandma and all these other things and she had been to a boarding school her dad was running for mayor of Merrill Wisconsin and suddenly uh an Indian woman was inconvenient for that purpose if he wanted to be politically ambitious so she she ended up with tuberculosis and got sent back to the reservation and I don't know whether they're actual for formal divorce papers or not I have no idea and then um he ended up marrying this other woman who ended up being my grandma's stepmom and she was a real prize she she worked as a she had worked as a butcher she was a she was a butcher but she also liked keeping these little finches and warblers around her house you know in the house and one day one time my grandma had gone away somewhere and and she came home and her stepmom had had had butchered all these little birds I mean they were little songbirds you know could they eat them and had had taken you know had taken a knife very neatly and slid them all open and emptied the guts on the counter and my grandma was sitting there going say what I mean that was a very bizarre kind of relationship. I mean there was something kind of goofy with that woman too a little bit I think but she had her reasons for doing what she did. But anyway she was kind of cruel but so then it was really inconvenient to have Indian kids around the house too or kids that were that looked like not Anglo right so they my grandma got sent down to a boarding school in Nebraska and there she learned to sew and there she learned how to tat and how to make cardinger and how to make uh do all this lace work and stuff like that. And um when her actual when her real mom died they wouldn't let her come home for the funeral they they just would not let her do it. So she's she sat there and she grieved on her own and it was like there were all these rules inside boarding school about things you could do and things you couldn't do and it was like she was she spoke English you know she also spoke German because that's all that ever was spoken in that house. So she spoke English she spoke German and then she spoke Ojibwe too so it was kind of like you know so she was trilingual which was pretty cool. And then she had a she had a brother well she ended up with with half half brothers and half sisters in there too just because of the marriage changes that were going on.

Kathy 52:37

So where did her mom go back to where did her Bad River Bad River yep your grandma she didn't like go back to I mean she didn't live with her mom ever that not after that nope her mom was sent was sent to Bad River and my grandma was sent to Nebraska and never the two should meet again.

Jesse 53:01

Mm-hmm so it was sad it was kind of a sad situation I mean you know it was sad for her but she she just she was one of those people she was just a dynamo it was like you're not gonna you're not gonna put me down you're not gonna keep me down I'm gonna just gonna keep on moving you know once she made up her mind that she couldn't be just sitting around and feeling feeling bad about what all happened here and she decided to get up off the couch and go do something then that I mean she was an activist from that point of view.

Kathy 53:32

So you've lived in in in your community for like what like 20 years?

Jesse 53:38

No let's see I've been in uh since 1991 I've been up here so that'd be like what 30 36 years 35 years of the people in your neighborhood changed do you feel like they've gotten more conservative or oh I think a lot of people have gotten there there are a lot of conservative people up here real I mean some are really right wing but there are a lot of people too that are getting out I mean that are much more open to progressive ideas much more much more willing to embrace things you know embrace different ways of doing business and different kinds of people and you know that have a a clearer sense of what's what's really happening as far as our government is concerned and are willing to do something about I mean if you could use no kings as an example I mean we had that no kings back in October of last year and we ended up with 150 people out of 500 town of 500 in this last no kings we had 250 people out of a town of 500 and that includes a lot a larger area of course you know I mean there are some people from Britain there are people from Crane Lake there are people from all over the place who all showed up as much noise as some of the as as some of the right wingers make the if there are people who are progressive out here we're a lot quieter a bunch we don't make as much noise we don't make as much you know there isn't as much fanfare except maybe on Fridays when we're out there signing or having our having our um events in town any community you're in there always be those ones that are you know those I mean there's gonna be something of everything in every little town. Then you find the libertarian somewhere in between you find I mean it's we have we have a lot of variety in in some senses as as as far as the political set situation is concerned. But I think things are things are getting better now than they used to be and it's kind of like for myself I mean I'm just kind of a fixture around here they're so used to seeing me do doing my business and everything that it nobody bothers me anymore which is nice. So that's a good thing. I like that so it but people tend to live live up here because they kind of want to be left alone you know there are a lot of people up here that want to be that just want to go go go off in the woods and just be left alone and just be free to do however they want to do and not not have anybody telling them how to do their business. So I mean I and I I understand that I got that kind of streak myself you know I just just leave me alone and let me do my business. Do you feel like um are there a lot of people that were born and raised there's or there are there a lot yeah yeah that there are a lot of yeah it you know and the funny thing is it's like they always tell stories about how it was that they were growing up and they thought they should they needed to move someplace else so they'd move down to the cities get a job somewhere and then they'd move you know and they it wasn't long after that they'd just move right back because they just could not handle the hustle and bustle down there. They didn't they didn't like all the noise and stuff and they didn't like the the smell of the air and the the way that the water tasted and so they they moved back up here. Most of the young people now they they do the very same thing only a lot of them are staying away they're not coming back home again. So a lot of our community is getting really kind of older getting towards the older side of things and those people that are really really old they want they're doing everything they can to hang on to what they've got you know to hang on to their land or hang on to their house or hang on to you know their way of life because they don't want to go live in town they don't want to go do that if they can help it if they have the resources they can you know um find somebody that's that might might be willing to help them or they a lot of people are a lot of a lot of stuff around here is all about family and about friends. So it's like if you go to a you know if you go to church you're doing good you know you have a community I mean that's an instant community if you go to if you start belonging to a church around here you belong to an instant community. If you go to the Muni and you hang out there long enough there's your community you know it's like and they they don't don't often mix they don't often meet but we've I mean I think about cook okay the cook has a a Catholic church a big Catholic church a big Lutheran church a big Baptist church a big covenant church oh no it's a tiny covenant church but it's but we have those four churches in town and all the parking lots are filled up on Sundays and I never I don't run into those people that I know of I mean they're they're not the people that are going to be coming to know kings or whatever. The Lutherans will maybe some of the Catholics but you know it doesn't you know it's like and I you know if you but if you don't belong to any of that then it's really hard to fit into the community unless unless you actually work in the community. I could never find a job in this town so I always ended up working in I worked in Tower I worked at Boysport I worked at Evel I worked in Evelet when I was um managing the um housing authority down there for a bit uh you know I've I've always had to travel you know long distances to to get a job that would you know that would that I could find that would allow me to support myself so and there are a lot of people that if you travel 53 lots of people back and forth all the time I mean I know people that work in Duluth for social services in Duluth and then make their way back up here again. I know people in Virginia who drive drive down to Duluth and back again and people vice versa depending on what department they're working in. But um if you can find a job that you know that where you can support yourself which is really hard to do in this town then you're doing pretty good you know if the cook hospital was to not be able to continue um then what would happen to the community? We go under we go under the the the grocery store would disappear and the grocery store is kind of like okay like there are two cornerstones that that operate that run this that run this town. The one of them is the clinic and the hospital and the other one is the grocery store. And if either one of those disappeared we would uh people would have to people would probably have to leave I I can't imagine that they'd be able to stick around. There'd be no way to be able to manage I mean for a while okay Zupp's d Zupp's Zupps went up in a fire a few years back. That's the big grocery store up here. Yeah and so people had to drive I mean I was lucky because I could I I got a car and I'm driving whatever but we had to drive down to what I did was I make a list long enough to get us through two weeks worth of groceries we'd drive down to Virginia go to the Super One and drive back home again and I'd have a whole I'd have a whole great big toboggan full of groceries I think there's some kind of transportation services but there I mean it's so sparse and so the timing is so off it doesn't work. Okay that doesn't work at all but if the hospital disappeared I mean I'm thinking about all the people that are living in the nursing home they would have either have to either have to go live with their relatives if they have any or they you know what I don't know what would happen to them. And then as far as the clinic and the hospital are concerned I mean we're kind of a major a major one in our area we're kind of a major deal in our area so yeah it would be devastating absolutely devastating it would be that would be the end that would be the end of our town that would be the end of a lot of people that would be the end of a lot of people health wise and I mean health wise and there'd be a lot of people that would die I mean there are you know people that would die because they wouldn't they have they would have nowhere to go they have they have nobody left to them so yeah that would be bad news really bad news I it makes me anxious to just and very sad to even think about it. So we we we're doing everything we can to keep it going huh you know if it if there's anything at all that any one of us could do to make sure that that people around here get some kind of some kind of health care. You know it doesn't have to be we don't have to have state of the art stuff. We need to have enough to make it through the next to the next day so we can get somewhere where we can you know either get more or not. It's real simple you know either we have it or are there a lot of people that are going to be really suffering. And that the the grocery store has said um Matt at the grocery store even said he's the man who who owns that place he said if the hospital went we'd have to go too because the hospital supports the grocery store. So that's that's how that would go