Get the Picture?
Get the Picture? is the podcast where fun photography chats meet real education. Think of it as your photography bestie and built-in teacher, covering everything from creative inspiration and business tips to the candid realities of life as a full-time wedding photographer.
Get the Picture?
Is "Community Over Competition" Toxic?
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This week on Get the Picture?, my friend Anna is back for part two of our conversation about the photography and modeling industry. This time, we’re getting into the idea of “community over competition” and whether the phrase can actually become toxic or unrealistic in a competitive industry. We also talk about finding purpose in photography, the stories and experiences that shape us as creatives, and some of the bigger questions that come with building a career in a creative industry. It’s another honest conversation about photography, modeling, creativity, and everything that comes with it.
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Hey you guys, welcome back to another episode of Get the Picture. I'm your host, Tori Elizabeth, and today's episode is part two of my interview with my model friend Anna. And we just left off talking about community over competition. And Anna had asked me how I felt about it. And if I had to pick one or the other, which one I would choose. So we're just starting the episode off with a bang today. I'm gonna go ahead and just cut to where we left off in the episode. It's gonna be a great conversation, a conversation. And yeah, we're kind of just yapping a lot. So enjoy and we'll see you guys next week. So, like basically in photography, it's like to not view other photographers or for models. It's to not view photographers or models as competition. It's like to work together, to build each other up. That's the concept.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01It's a nice thought. It's a great concept. Okay, I don't have a problem with the concept. I have a problem with the phrase and the way it's used because it's used as like a weapon, in my opinion. And I've never, I don't feel like I've ever heard anyone. This sounds like I'm trying to be quirky, but I don't feel like I've ever had heard anyone say my like my take on it. So I don't know if this is a hot take or not. Okay. I feel like people are either anti-community over competition or like pro-community over competition. And I'm very like in the I don't know if a neutral is the right word, but I'm like, you know what I mean? Pro or not. Like if you had to choose, you okay, not. I'm anti-community over competition. Because the way it's you okay, this sounds like I'm not a nice person. Okay, I am pro like community, but I'm not pro-community at the expense of your business. Because like this is your livelihood, this is how you put food on your table. If you're a parent, this is how you feed your kids. Like, yeah, you can't be like, oh, like if I do this thing, like I'm competing with someone, it's like, heck yeah, you're competing with them. Like you're both trying to get the same clients. Like, that doesn't mean you become a rude person or you tear them down or you at them or you make enemies or you don't comment on their Instagram posts. That doesn't mean any of that. It just means like you still need to stand out and like you need to get that back. Like, and so what I feel like when people say like community over competition, they use it as like when I've heard it used, it's like it's like a weapon. It's like their weaponization obnoxiously. Yeah, it's like it's their personality. Yes, it's literally their personality, and I feel like people use it when they feel like threatened by someone, and it's like, oh, community over competition, you're supposed to be working with me. And it's like, I don't have to be giving you my services for free just because you use the word community over competition. Like, this is not like a a word, like a word you get to say, and it's like a secret password to getting my work for free. Like, that's not how it works. So I feel like I don't know. Like, I feel like okay, like for example, uh I was like trying to think of a specific example because I feel like I'm talking so like blogly. Yeah, like but for example, then I don't know if you have thoughts on this too, but people talk about like giving away locations. Okay. So okay, actually, really quick, tell me your thoughts on giving away locations.
SPEAKER_00I literally did a video on this. You did? Wait, on your story? Uh about so on Instagram. Oh, I probably I probably replied. I probably saw it. Yeah, CP locations. That's the word gatekeeping. Okay, how do you feel about that? Okay. We're going all over the place. I love it. I love this. Um, I'm a gatekeeper stan. I agree. Because I agree. I'm so glad we agree. You are grasping at straws to be different. Yeah. And the minute somebody like there's this one location that like a year ago was like everybody was asking me for it. First of all, my rule of thumb is if the photographer found that location and they were nice enough to involve us in a shoot there, I'm either going to ask them, or if somebody else asks me, like, hey girly, like send me the coordinates.
SPEAKER_01Hey girling, hey girly.
SPEAKER_00Get out of my DMs.
SPEAKER_01Seriously, get out. Get out. You don't even follow me.
SPEAKER_00And um I'll be like, yeah, like, you know, that's not my location. Um, I don't even have the coordinates, like, but this is a photographer because I know you know the photographer was the one that posted the photos. No. I'm obsessed with you.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_00Like, I'm sorry, like respectfully, that is their value. Yeah. That those are valuable chess pieces. Like, and that sounds so selfish. But people have made it selfish.
SPEAKER_01It's not okay. Like, if that's selfish, okay, then it's selfish. But it's like that's I feel like that's doing the right thing, at least from like that perspective. If like if like a photographer, like it like you go to like a photographer found a location. Like I did that one time. Like someone took me somewhere or something, and we like did a shoot somewhere, and someone DM'd me and asked for the location. I was like, hey, that's actually not my location to give out. So-and-so found it. I mean, you can ask them if you want, but it's like that's not my thing to give away. Like, this is this person's like they don't own this location, but like they did the hard work to find this exactly or luck or whatever, but they found this, not me. So, like, who am I to give it away?
SPEAKER_00And it's like I remember when I was starting off finding a location for my bridals, like my actual bridals. I reached out to this photographer because I was like, I love this place, it's so beautiful. Like, yeah, like where is it? Because I didn't know the rules and all that.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's okay to ask. There's nothing wrong with asking.
SPEAKER_00And she's like, Yeah, so like I actually don't give out that location. That's for my clients. And at the time I was like, Oh.
SPEAKER_01I know I feel like that's always how it come across how it comes across.
SPEAKER_00I get it, but like, yeah, I get it so much now because people ruin that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, literally. Case after case after case. Like there's like locations in Utah, because Utah is like even more saturated than here. I can't imagine. Locations like get shut down left and right because people like don't follow the rules, which like as a beginner photographer, I was guilty of because I thought, oh, it doesn't matter if you stay on the path or whatever. Now I try to be really conscious of that stuff. But like photographers will ruin locations, and so you start giving out locations, then they give it out to someone, they get out to someone, they give it out to someone, they give it out to five people, and then like all of a sudden there's a million people at your location, you can't even get a parking spot, and then also it gets closed down in a week because no one's following the rules. So it's like there is something bad about giving away locations. The value diminishes, literally, if everyone's shooting there. Well, because think about like when you had reached out to that photographer, let's say you cared more about the location than the photographer. Maybe you would have even booked with that photographer. Like it does give them like a leg up, like which is kind of annoying at the same time. But like I get that that's the goal for them. They're trying to make that money. Yeah, or like let's say you found a location and like I reached out and I was like, Yeah, I really want to shoot at this location. Like, like, let's say, like, the location was I didn't care who the model that was there, like I just wanted to shoot at that location. Like, you have this secret spot in the Tetons, and I'm like, and I want to shoot here. And you're like, Oh, I actually saved this for like my paid shoots. Like, if I wanted to work there bad enough, I'd be like, okay, bam, I'm paying you and I want to shoot there. You know what I mean? It's like and people have like a big problem with that, but it's like the like, like you said, like in a saturated industry, that is how you stand out. It's like you you're not required. I I don't like the phrase community over competition because it makes it sound like it's a requirement to give away your like knowledge that you've like earned, like almost you could say like your intellectual property. Like, I feel like people, it's like an expectation to just give away anything if anyone says the words community over competition. And I just don't feel like that's right. I don't feel like you have to give away your work. I feel like if you, if you like, maybe a lot of people like helped you out and gave you a lot of locations, and so you want to pay it forward, and you like are that person who will just give out locations, as long as you're not giving away other people's locations. I think that's great, but I don't think it should be expected. And that's why I don't like community over competition, because I feel like it is expected, and I feel like that's toxic, and I feel like that's where it's become toxic. Like, in theory, it's a good concept, and I like the concept, but like it's become toxic the way people talk about it, you know.
SPEAKER_00And logically, no, community is not over competition. Kind of like what you were saying. This is like somebody's livelihood, like it's their actual job, it's not just a hobby. Like legit, like competition is good. Uh-huh. And I feel like that kind of trumps the goodness. But uh, I feel like people who use it left and right, those are the people you have to watch out for. Let's be so for real, guys.
SPEAKER_01Because I feel like those are the fake people. I feel like it's always like two-faced girls.
SPEAKER_00No, it's so true. And you have to face a fact. If you don't face a facts, you're gonna get left behind. Like at the end of the day, there are only so many models or so many opportunities for models and photographers here. Yeah. Only so many clients. And so it's not a bad thing to accept that and understand it and recognize it. Yeah. Like it can be a strength. I agree. And at least for me, because there's been so many opportunities that just didn't work out, or I had to say no to. And I look at the model couple that they booked, and I'm like, that was gonna be me. Yeah. Like I I wanted that, but for whatever reason I couldn't. That wasn't meant for me. Like, I need to feel like that too. I need to talk myself into it because if not, I spiral.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly what I've had to. I think we were talking about this over DM one time, but like that's what I have to tell myself too, because like there were, I mean, it just happens all the time. Like, it's like, oh, my husband and I are going on an anniversary trip, or my family has planned this camping trip or whatever. And so, like, like my family now understands like if they want me somewhere, if it's over a weekend or a trip or whatever, that like this must be scheduled a year in advance or whatever. Like, and so they've started doing that. And so then it's I've been blocking off more and more dates as they're starting to understand that. And so I've been turning away weddings for these like family events, and it's like it sounds like it should be like I should be happy to do that, but then at the same time, it's like what you're saying, like, oh, like that could have been me. Oh, that wedding is so beautiful. I want to work at that venue, blah, blah, blah. There's like, there's always a reason, but like at the end of the day, I just have to tell myself, like, or like sometimes I don't respond within two hours and they've already booked another photographer. Yeah, not actually two hours, but like, I'm on my anniversary trip, I'm not responding to inquiries, like, you know what I mean? And then like they've already found a photographer, and it's like obviously that wasn't meant for me. Like, if what I had to do to get that inquiry was respond over my anniversary trip and be working on my anniversary, or be working over a family holiday, or like we're camping in the middle of the woods, but I need to go to a Starbucks and find service because heaven forbid I wait two days to respond to an inquiry, or like I need to burn myself out and stretch myself, then like those were obviously not meant for me because like I should not have to do those things in order to get the like things that are meant for me should not be that not that you don't have to work hard, but they shouldn't be that hard. Yes, you know what I mean? They shouldn't be like bend over backwards and flip upside down to like them.
SPEAKER_00I mean, they shouldn't take away your personal life, yes, whatever. Like, yeah, I don't know, but that's something that's really helped me to overcome those insecurities or those missed opportunities that I keep like dwelling on. That wasn't meant for me, that was meant for them. Yeah, and that's great, that's awesome. It's so hard though to like come to terms with sometimes I look back and I'm like, I'm so grateful I didn't get that because if not, I couldn't have had this last minute opportunity to do this really cool project.
SPEAKER_01Or um I wanted to ask, you were talking about like insecurities and how your insecurities have gotten worse since modeling, which makes me so sad because I think you're gorgeous, stunning, beautiful, perfect. And I'm sure everyone else thinks that too. But I know that doesn't help because just first of all, being a girl is just that's just the way it is. But I can't imagine being a girl and modeling. Just like I know how I feel as a girl who doesn't model. And like I feel like at first that surprises me because I'm like, what do you mean? Like you're getting all these beautiful photos of yourself back, and then I'm like, well, I see the beautiful photos you post, I don't see the photos that you get back that you realize, like, oh, I hate how I look in these, or like, oh, I didn't do like this dress didn't fit right, or like, oh, I don't look like this person who did this shoot.
SPEAKER_00So like and that's why I wanted to post. I don't know if you saw, but there's this one like with the words where it's like whatever times I've been insecure, and then I explain, I share a picture from that view and I explain why I was insecure. Yes, I did see that. I saw you commenting on it.
SPEAKER_01If sometimes I'm bad, sometimes I'm so bad and I see them and then I forget to call it.
SPEAKER_00But the reason why I wanted to post that is because it's so like as a model, you're constantly getting galleries back, you're constantly looking at yourself. And if you're trying to market yourself, you kind of have to look at your like the negative aspect. That sounds awful. No, that's true because like negative aspects may hide them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you have to make yourself like look, I guess you would feel like okay. Do you feel like people like photographers are superficial when they're not maybe even just like subconsciously when they're looking for models and they have you have to look perfect or whatever for them, air quotes perfect, for them to want to work with you, or you have to look a certain way or fit into some like box or like yes and no like what like classic, I don't know, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Like generally, no. I actually don't think that, but for certain types of photographers, yes. Like who? Not like specific ones, but like you're like, well, this start adding people. Well, I mean, wedding photographers they're just looking for people who have a connection and that can show it through a screen, at least like from what I've gathered. Yeah, right? Yeah, they want to see the love. I agree. Period. People in commercial or like branding, or you know, like I don't know, those like more commercial, higher end work. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel that way. Like, I know like Bohm would never hire me because I don't have a chiseled jawline and big boobs. That's not wait, should I cut that? No, it's okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Unless you want me to cut it. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Anyways, like you just see they're like tall, for the most part lean, but still curvy. Yeah. It's like the unrealistic body expectations and slump lips, yeah, long eyelashes, thick eyebrows, long luscious hair. Like that is just their thing. Um, like brands are picky, which rightfully so.
SPEAKER_01So that's rightfully so like they can be picky, but like for me, I don't feel like it's okay to like perpetuate the negative like beauty stereo or beauty like expectations. Do you know what I mean? How do you feel about that, I guess? Because you're more in this than I am. Like, like, what do you mean? How do you feel about people having certain like expectations of how they want a model to look? Like, cause you said like rightfully so. So, like, do you feel like it's okay for them to be picky, or do you feel like it's like it's just do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, versus how it is. It feels wrong when you're not the right fit.
SPEAKER_01But when you are the right fit, it's like it benefits you, so it's okay. Yeah, yeah, you're like, oh I'm pretty. Okay, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00And so it's just a double-edged sword. It really is. And honestly, I don't take it very like obviously I get like butthurt. Okay. I know, like, or I feel like they're saying no to me because you don't look a certain way. I don't look a certain way. Um, but I mean, at the end of the day, that's part of branding. Like, I get that. Yeah. Like, I get why businesses want to protect the vibe they're going for. And it does have to do with the way models look. It's like I try not to get offended, like when people are looking for like a blonde, blue-eyed girl. Like, I get that. Like, yeah, you have a certain vision, and unfortunately, there are certain facts I can't change change about myself, and like I'm not the right fit for you. Yeah. And it can be disheartening, but I mean, I guess what can you do about it?
SPEAKER_01I guess I guess you're right. I do feel like mo well, this is a hot topic too, but I do feel like in general, most good wedding photographers like, and and it's okay if like I were there's this one girl one time who did a styled shoe and she was like, Oh, I really wanted a redhead for this shoe. Like, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just like that's her vision for the shoe. It doesn't mean I think people who aren't redheads are ugly. It just means, oh, like it's bright and sunny, and I feel like her red hair would pop. Like, that's fine. Like it's just cute, it's whatever. But like besides, like, I do feel like in general, most people, like you said, care more about the connection and like the love more than like what you look like. And I feel like most wedding photographers, this is where the hot topic is, but kind of want like a diverse portfolio and want to work with a diverse set of people. Diverse as in race or like features? Um race, features, gender, sexuality, anything. Okay, okay. And I feel like so. I feel like that's for me personally, I'm like, if you love each other, I don't care. I'll show you your wedding, I'll work with you, I'll do your phone, like literally whatever. I don't care. Um, and so I I guess that makes sense what you're saying, that like brands care more than like wedding photographer. I guess I thought like in my head, like I feel like a lot of people are probably superficial, but then when you said that, I'm like, no, I think you're right. Like, I think most wedding photographers, because that's how I feel. I just care if you love each other and you're like fun to work with. Like, I don't care how you look.
SPEAKER_00Because I mean, certain brands, like you see certain models and you're like, oh, they're models for this place. Uh-huh. Like, oh, there's this one girl with like a chiseled jawline, dirty blonde, boom.
SPEAKER_01Like gosh, unless do you feel like you pay attention to like branding, like marketing, and like the type of people who model for certain brands more now that you're modeling?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, for sure. And it kind of makes I shouldn't let it affect whether I reach out or not. But like I do keep that in mind. Like, I don't know if I'm a good fit, but like I'll shoot my shot and um and not take it personally. Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting.
SPEAKER_01Okay, do you feel like there's any we kind of talked about this a little before the podcast, but do you feel like there's any way photographers contribute to how like negatively how you might feel about yourself, or whether it's like something they do in the shoot, something they're editing out of photos, the way they pose you, comments they make.
SPEAKER_00Like, does anyone ever honestly I feel like that? I've been really fortunate to work with good photographers when it comes to that aspect. Like I've never really had a photograph, like intentionally. Like, I'm like, oh, that's an awful shot of me. Uh-huh. Please never use that. I never want to, like, I need to like skip, skip. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, that is me. Yeah. Beautiful double chin.
SPEAKER_01Do you feel okay? Do you feel like when people send like what you think are bad photos of your photo? Like everyone takes bad photos, whatever. Someone sends a bad photo of you. Do you feel like are you ever like, why did you send that photo like at all? Or do you feel like, oh, I can see from their perspective why they thought that was cute, but I just don't like it. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00I think initially it's like, why would you ever do me dirty like that? Yeah, yeah. Like, but their focus on the overall shot as models, or at least for me, I'll speak for myself. A girl, a girl, yeah, it's gonna anybody actually, yeah. We'll look at the photo and be like, do I look good? Yep.
SPEAKER_01My my mom would hate if I said this on the podcast. We made she doesn't, I don't think she listens. I don't know. If you're listening, mom, hi, I love you so much. Um, but it uh we we make fun of her because see, our moms are just girls, but when we would we got it like a oh, I can't speak. Wow, we took a family photo one time and she like pulls it up on her phone and she literally zooms in on her face, like just her face. It's like just her face on the entire screen, and she goes, Oh my gosh, this photo is so cute, and then passes the photo on us. I'm sorry, we were dead. We were like, it wasn't even like the whole photo she was looking at. And she was like, Yeah, yeah. It wasn't like she was looking at the whole shot and then like was looking at herself and we couldn't tell. It was like she literally zooms in on just her face and was like, this is a cute photo in Movement. That was so real. And like relatable, like, yeah, like okay, queen, like yeah, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Like, it's so that's true. That's why I appreciate photographers who are detail oriented in the way like they take the time, you because from what I've gathered, photographers tell lies, as in, oh, I can just edit that out later. And and then they're like, Oh, but will I? Yeah, and can I actually with this specific one? So it's nice to know that like photographers like look up out of the camera, because I get how it can be difficult to see. Yeah. Oh, you have a string of hair like right here, or like your mascara is running a bit. Can you like do that? Or um, hey, can you fix your shirt? It looks a little odd, bunched up that way.
SPEAKER_01Do you feel like if they don't fix those things that that reflects like or feels like it reflects poorly on you as like a model? Like you don't want to post those photos.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh-huh. I'm not putting like if I look weird, I don't care how good the shot is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I look bad. Which is that's interesting to me. Cause I feel like as a photographer, I would almost be like, why did the photographer not like they didn't oh her shirt is weird. Yeah, why did the photographer not tell her it's not her fault? You know what I mean? Like I would almost like put it on the photographer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which, but like you put it on you. Yeah. I'm like, that's embarrassing for me. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01This is so interesting. Interesting. Okay, I have like, okay, wait. I know. I'm so sorry. No, no, I love everything we've talked about. I have so many questions. Okay, let me, let me, how about we both ask each other like one or two more questions? And then we'll talk about it. Because I have no, I had so many questions for you, but I I like I've been wanting to talk about content days and community over competition, but I don't want to just yap about that by myself because like that's just like you're like step off your soapbox, like calm down.
SPEAKER_00I'd be like, is everybody like on my side or is it like?
SPEAKER_01No, literally, like I'm afraid to talk about this because like, does anyone agree with me? Like, no, lovely you have an ally. This has been amazing. This has been great. Um while we're looking for more questions, if you guys don't follow Anna, go follow her because she's hot. Um, and she posts cute videos. Anyway, um, and she she's lying, she can't take a bad photo. That is such a lie. Okay, real talk dead serious. When I was calling your photos from the content day, it was very hard to choose. There were very few photos that I was like, oh no, that like everyone takes bad photos, but there were very few photos that I was like, oh, that like that's not a great angle or that doesn't look good or whatever. I appreciate that. You guys very and I hate the word photogenic. I I kind of hate it. I have such mixed feelings about it, but I do feel like you guys are very photogenic. I appreciate that Easton too, but like you specifically. Like I feel like you are gorgeous. So anyway, but I know like we're all our own worst critics, so I know it doesn't I can't imagine feeling like I have to like people are looking at how I look to decide if they want to hire me or not. I feel like that would really get to me. Like, I I don't know how you do it. Like, I feel like that would be I feel like modeling seems really like just like fun and like whatever, but then I actually think about doing that, and I'm like, not that I've like actually considered it. I just think from your perspective, like how it must be. And I'm like, that sounds really tough. Like it sounds, I don't know. I feel like people are just like, oh, you just model, you just show up and wear cute clothes and whatever. But I feel like that would be like hard, like really like emotionally tough. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think what kills me the most is that I start speculating about why I didn't get something or why I did get something. Like, are they only using me because for diversity? My the diversity card. Oh, okay. Or do they like me for like me? Like I know what I look like is part of me, but it's not everything. Yeah. Or are they hiring me because they like the way my husband looks, which is good. Like, that helps. Yeah. But I don't know. I think what kills me is not knowing what they think. I feel like once I know what they think, whether it's bad or good in my eyes, I'll accept it and I'll be like, okay, yeah, they wanted a blonde model. I totally get why they I'm obviously not the right fit.
SPEAKER_01Do you feel like you would rather be picked? This is probably a stupid question, but do you feel like you would rather be picked for your personality and like your vibe more than like how you look? Or do you like because I know it feels good when you're picked for how you're look, you look. It's like, oh I'm pretty, like, you know what I mean? It's like I feel like I don't know.
SPEAKER_00How do you feel about that? How do I feel about a photographer saying, I like your personality?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And like that feels like an insult. That does feel like an insult. It feels like like, oh she has a great personality. Yeah, you know, seriously. But how do you okay, like if I we shoot together again? Yeah, I like working with you because of your personality. And you guys are a really cute couple. That's like a secondary thing. Like for me, the like your personality and your vibes, and like getting the vibe and like being fun and creative, that's that's like most important to me. And it's not like, oh, I like your personality. It's okay that you're not cute. Like, no, you guys are adorable, you're so pretty. Like, not what I'm saying at all, but it's like personality is more important for me for a model because like I'm a fun and goofy and weird person sometimes. And like if someone doesn't vibe with me, it's so not fun to like I can't get creative, like I cannot get into that mindset. So anyway, I don't but yeah, how do you feel if let's say people were to only hire you because they like your personality? Okay, how would that feel?
SPEAKER_00Initially insulted. Wow, yeah, but it's just because I think about that phrase and I'm like, oh, it's dating. It's like, oh, I like you as a friend. Yeah.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_00But honestly, thinking about it, that is such a strength because I've been working so hard to push my like personality outward because that does add value, like putting a face to the name and things like that. Um, so I would say it really is a compliment. Like, I don't, for the most part, I don't think I take offense. The people who tell me that, I'm like, I'm honored. Yeah. I'm truly honored because I feel the same way about you. Like, for example, like I love your personality. I love how I've gotten to know you despite you moving to Arizona. Because when we did the workshop, I was like, wow, like she's really cool. Like, I want to hang out. Well, it's always so scared. Like, I'm always so scared and trying to find the balance between friends and just working with someone.
SPEAKER_01Oh, same. Like, if I like like working with someone, I'm like, oh, let's be friends. And I'm like, um, we're not in kindergarten anymore. Maybe they don't feel like that. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. But like No, but I remember we were talking about that. We were like, we should hang out. And I was like, I'm moving. I know, and I was like, well, devastating. Darn.
SPEAKER_00But it's been cool to like you like we send voice memos together. I love voice memos and I love getting to know you. Oh, mine are so long. I'm so sorry. I'm so patient, you guys.
SPEAKER_01I I will not shut up. Hence the podcast's going so long. Sorry guys, this might be a two-parter. We'll see. Hopefully.
SPEAKER_00Um, okay, I think, and this is something that I think every like every model is just constantly trying to figure out whether it's asking other people or just putting things out there. Pricing. I know that's like, I know you don't like you work with models, yeah. Not all the time though. Yeah, not all the time though. How does a model know how to price themselves? Like, what in the categories should they be considering? Like location, um, amount of photographers, um I don't know. Uh, is there gonna be a hair and makeup team or am I doing it all on my own? Travel, all that, like in the eyes of a photographer, what's fair for both parties? Like, does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I feel like, okay, I'll tell you kind of from like the perspective of like general advice I would give to like a photographer too. Yeah, my number one thing is don't ever add anything on. So, like, for example, um like I'm like 95% travel, like I all my bookings are travel, even like my sessions now aren't even local. Like, I just like wow, everywhere. Just I'm never when I I'm just always all over the place, whatever. But like when I used to try to get into travel, I would I was like, okay, this is my price. And then they were like, okay, and like we want to fly, like you want we want you in or or Washington. I remember I got one for Washington, and I was like, okay, and then we would add on the hotel price and we would add on the flight, and we would add on this, and we would add on this, and it was quickly like a list of things they would have to pay for, and they were like, Yeah, we're not doing this. Okay. And then I realized like that doesn't work for people, that's overwhelming. And so from then on, I started like, well, I think I might have done it with like one more wedding or whatever, but like once I started to like get a couple more travel inquiries, it was just one price. It was just this is what so like my top package now includes travel for any state. And like someone inquires, we want you in Illinois. And I'd be like, Okay, like I just got an inquiry for Illinois. Why Illinois? I don't know. But I was like, okay, this is the top package. This includes all your travel fees, includes my rental car, includes my hotel, includes my food, whatever I'm gonna buy. Like you guys just pay this one price and that's it. Because people who are getting married don't want to have to worry about a million things tacked on. And then photographers who are planning a content day with a million moving parts don't want to have to worry about, oh, the model's hotel and they're this and they're this, oh, and they're food, and oh, are they doing their makeup? I have to pay them for this. So that's my I don't know if that was already a given or not, but that's my first piece of advice is whatever you do, quote them to make it like one thing of one price instead of. So I guess it would be finding out all the information about the shoot first so you can give them a quote instead of quoting them first for your rate or something and then tacking on more stuff, like giving them one quote. Because I feel like that's a lot easier of a like easier to swallow as a photographer. It's like this is the price and it's not gonna change. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I think I feel like photographers should be okay better at giving all the information. Yes, because there are times that I've quoted and it's like perfect. Oh, by the way, um, well, okay, maybe I'm just lazy or like I just don't like to ruin my sleep schedule. But like, oh, it's gonna be a sunrise shoot, so you have you basically have to, and we want you have to get up at 4 a.m. Yeah, yeah. No, that's a lot, yeah. So it's like that would have been nice to know because that also affects like the whole day. So I think definitely I I like that because I've always wondered where where it's like, does this adding on feel like I'm trying to cheat them out of money?
SPEAKER_01I think it does because like something like you know, when you like you go to order something online and you're like, oh my gosh, it's only 20 bucks. You see it on TikTok shop, has free shipping. I don't know, I think, or does it? I don't know, somewhere, whatever. You see it and you're like like I don't fall for ads. Okay, fine, I'm just gonna buy this one. You add it to your cart, you go to order six dollar shipping. All of a sudden, I don't want it because it was supposed to only be 20 bucks. Yeah, is it actually that much money? No, it's not, but it's like it's the principle. I feel like I'm being cheated because they told me it was only gonna be 20 bucks. Yeah. And so it's like that. It's like even if it's not a lot of money, it's like the the experience with the person starts to go down because they feel like, why are you adding on stuff? Like, I thought we were friends, I thought we were like head-like, I don't know, it just feels like that. It feels like psychological answer. I don't know, like, yeah, like, or just like, yeah, when you pay for something and then there's tax, like that's like why I don't add tax on for my wedding clients. It just feels like you're adding things on, you know.
SPEAKER_00Like, so you would say get a higher price, like start with a higher price and just say this is what it all includes. Yes. Like high because my worry with that has always been like, oh, I'm like, I really think highly of myself because no photographer is gonna pay this, even though they're booking yeah. Like shoots that are like three times this amount.
SPEAKER_01So I feel like they should be able to pay me, but I feel like you guys are so I feel like you guys do stand out. I feel like Southeast Idaho sucks. But I feel like if you were to get out of Southeast Idaho or like in the Tetons or wherever you guys are, like I feel like people will pay your prices. Like, I don't feel like and like I feel like, which I'm sure people are already paying your prices, but like if you're saying you want to raise them or whatever, like I feel like I don't know, I guess I would have like written down like a how you want to price it. So I guess like you would say, okay, if you want me to do my own hair and makeup, I'm gonna add 50 bucks or whatever. I don't I don't honestly, I'm I'm bad about giving amounts because I haven't worked with a ton of models. I will say when I've inquired with models, um it's typically like 200 bucks for an hour, I feel like is what I've seen, but I I don't know if that's like a lower rate for like less experienced models. I'm not really sure. It's hard to know, and it's it's hard to know because models don't have like their pricing on their website, like photographers. You can't really like go and compare.
SPEAKER_00And also, I feel like I sometimes I do ask photographers who are inquiring, like, hey, like what are the typical hourly rates that your model couples do? Yeah. But I'm like, are you telling the truth or are you trying to lowball me? No, that's fair. So I'm so I'm sure there are some people that would like lie and be like, oh, $50. Yeah. It feels like so validating. Like I just had a contract for the Tetons, I think for September.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And she was so validating. Like, she's like, because I have the tendency to want to be like, oh, it's this, but for you, I'll do a special offer because I'm desperate. I used to do that all the time, yeah. Yeah. And it like makes them feel special, but also you're selling yourself short at the end of the day. Mental burnout. Gas.
SPEAKER_01And then you've made five bucks by the end of the shoot.
SPEAKER_00And it's yeah, oh, what am I doing? Like exactly. So I appreciate photographers who are willing to spend the big bucks because from my eyes, I'm like, okay, if I'm charging this amount and you're charging four times the amount for a shoe, why do you feel like it's too expensive? Yes. Because, like, is it just because we're models and like we're replaceable or whatever? I get that. Like, you can literally just get a couple off the side of the road. But modeling is hard. Yeah. I know that sounds so silly. That sounds so silly, but No, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_01I mean, like, people say the same thing about photographers, like, oh, it's just pushing a button. Like, it's like, it's harder than people think. Like, everything is harder than people think. Like, why am I sore after shoots? Yeah. No, because we're like roll on the ground 10 times, go roll around.
SPEAKER_00Cameras. I took like a couple of shots for a photographer. Oh my gosh, letting buff literally.
SPEAKER_01I was like, My husband held my camera the other day with my 28 to 70 on my big lens, and he was like, This is heavy, you carry this around all day. Yeah. Like strong girl, you know.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, it just makes you feel valued. Yeah. When people are like, Don't sell yourself short. Or like, absolutely, I will pay that. Like, you're worth it to me.
SPEAKER_01I wish I could give more, like, oh, this dollar amount or whatever.
SPEAKER_00And it's also based on like where you are, like in a saturated, I feel like, okay, maybe it's just me. I don't know. Jackson Jackson Hole versus Utah. Which, yes, city, state, but like it's so saturated over here. I feel like it's easier to get low balled because yeah, you're more replaceable. And so, but like in Jackson Hole, it feels like it's more like valued. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. If people don't know where Jackson is, it's where the Tetons are, the Grand Tetons. We live like two hours, or well, I don't live here anymore. But Anna lives like two hours. So when I was here, I would do a lot of shoots in the Tetones. So that's why I just came back for an a little bit in the Tetons. Anyway. Yeah. But yeah, I like, okay, so like for example, I started getting like a ton of shoots in the Tetons, and people would be like, like, oh, what's your price? And I would be like, oh, this amount plus this for gas. And they I found like it felt like people were annoyed. Okay. And so I started like I jacked up my pricing to a price that I'll just it was $450 for, and for this area, that is a ridiculous amount of money. I feel like, like, at least when I was here, maybe the average has gone up. But for photographers, that was like people were not paying that. Yeah. And so I was like really nervous to raise it up to that much, even though that's like a very normal photo shoot price. But I raised it up to that to include my travel because it was two, sometimes two and a half hours there, two and a half hours back. I had to buy a meal, which is like a whole $20 because it's expensive there, and I would have to get gas. And then I put a lot of wear and tear in my car because driving through the Teton Pass is awful and I had to ruin my brakes because I don't know how to drive and ship gears. I think that's why my car she gave out. Well, I effed up my brakes. My husband had to replace them from that because I went so many times. It was like last year, I think, before we moved. Yeah, it's it's bad. Yeah, it's you're supposed to like ship like change gears and like I don't even know. I don't know. I'm just gonna be scared. No, I'm literally just a girl. My husband tried to teach me and I literally got scared, and so I didn't do it and ruined my brakes. Ruined them, but it's yeah, it is what it is.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, you have to take that into consideration. I think people, there's so much that goes into photography. Like, okay, they're not just snapping photos, they're editing editing time, drive time, like, yeah, like all these little things that really do add up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's what I would say, like have a price for like this is my hourly rate for in local within 30 minutes. This is my hourly rate for two to three hours away. Um, if you want me to do my own hair makeup, it's plus this amount, and then like ask them for the details beforehand, and then you look at your own little phone note or wherever you have it written down and like calculate it yourself and say this is your price. And like that, which it's hard because if they start adding things on and lots of things changes, but then just tell them. Just tell them, like, especially, I mean, if they've already like if they already have you locked in, like, I'm not saying you can just like randomly add stuff on because oh, you're already locked in, but like they're already locked in, like the chances of them being like just kidding, that's too much, I'm gonna go find someone else are very slim. Like, most likely they're gonna be like, okay, like we already have you booked, we don't want to lose you. Like, of course we'll pay that. So I feel like it's hard because like it when you stand up for your pricing and like stand strong, it's like you risk someone saying no and then the opportunity goes to someone else. But I feel like I have I feel like when I stopped like compromising and giving discounts and stuff, I like became a lot more successful because I feel like I was honestly, I just made a lot more money and I got better clients who valued my work more. And I thought it would be the opposite, like, oh, if I start, like I'll lose clients and so I won't make as much money, but it was actually the opposite, which it's scary to do. I do feel like there was a transition period though, where like my clientele had to change, and so I like stopped getting like some inquiries for a while because it's like the people the cheaper people don't want to inquire with you anymore, but then like people don't know that like you're now a little bit more in the middle market, and so the middle market clients don't know how to find so it like takes a minute, but I feel like it's always better to like raise your pricing and like this is something people talk about all the time in photography. I never even considered how it would affect like modeling and stuff because I'd imagine there are a lot of models who do it for free or like very cheap because they're like trying to get started, and so it's hard to like stand with your pricing.
SPEAKER_00And I've been seeing a lot of new models pop up, which is really cool. And I just like my biggest thing that I want to tell like models and photographers is like I wrote it down. I wrote it down because I can't um say it where she had um I just want okay, so I just want both sides, both parties to think how can this be a mutually beneficial relationship? I feel like it's very easy. I feel like photographers need to be willing to pay their models more, like soft lowballing, yeah. And also, this is a hot take, but if it's a TFP, especially I'm gonna say trade for photos in case anyone doesn't know. Yes, I'm sorry, um deliver the galleries in a timely manner, like especially if we're going like elsewhere, like that is valuable for us. We're doing this so it can be mutually beneficial. You get the photos and you get the content that hopefully uh is geared towards your audience, but we also get it as well. Like I just feel so bad for hounding photographers and being like, hey Kirley, it's been like six months. Yeah, but it's like you did it for free, like you didn't get paid anything, like yeah, and that like and I feel like such a jerk hounding photographers, and it's like that's valid, yeah. But and models they need to stop being so selfish. In what way? I feel like models are trying to get exposure, right? They're quant quantity over quality, which I get at the beginning if you're trying to go up, yeah. But if you are doing portraits left and right, like that's all you want. You're not doing couples or anything like that, and you're reaching out to a family photographer or a couples photographer, like be thoughtful, like don't hound them to take pictures for free for you. Yeah, if it's not gonna be beneficial for them, that's not their audience. Like, yeah, that gives me the ick. I don't know how to explain it.
SPEAKER_01I'm like well, as a photographer, it gives me the ick. It's like we're just asking, so it's like both ways. It's like, yeah, photographers shouldn't just expect models to work for free or for very little compensation, and models shouldn't expect photographers to work for free or for like if it's like a mutually beneficial thing, that's okay. But like neither one should just like expect the other part. I don't know, like devalue the other party.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, like I've just been seeing a lot of like that's weird. I've never seen this photographer post portraits, like she doesn't do seniors or portrait shoes, she does like these type of shoes, yeah. And but it's like a freelance model who is just like reaching out to everybody, saying TFP, TFG, but like being thoughtful because that's not helpful for them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like like people are just afraid to say no, I guess. Okay, so we've yapped for so long. Yeah, but I think this is a good one to end on. Uh my last question for you is because I'm uh mostly photographers are listening to this. So, like if anyone's listening or looking for a model for a content day couple. Wait, you said you don't host content days, you still participate in them?
SPEAKER_00I participate in them.
SPEAKER_01If you're hosting properly, period.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm not working for free. That's pay the models. But um, I want to still do styled shoots, but it's just it's hard to come by now logically and realistically. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if someone is planning styled shoot content day, blah, blah, blah, whatever, what are you actually interested in? And what who do you feel like because you were talking about you can't be the right fit for everyone. Who do you feel like you're the right fit for? Me? Yes. Like you, or I guess, I guess most let's go you and Easton. Okay, okay. Because I feel like Most people are like wedding photographers or trying to get into wedding photography. You can say for you too, but like who do you feel like you're the right fit for? Me, anybody going to Europe. Okay. Me too. If anyone's getting married in Europe, I will be the right fit. I will also be the right fit.
SPEAKER_00No, Susie.
SPEAKER_01So is it like anything travel like you're interested in? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like personally, I've realized like I think modeling has consumed me. And it's because I'm at a point in my life where all my friends are gone. And so I need to pour in my passion and my excitement that like used to get fueled by friends around me, like close, close friends. Yeah. And I need to pour it into something else. And so I did that with modeling, but I'm getting exhausted to be honest. Like I need something that keeps my passion going. And I feel like travel, like Easton is such a saint. This man, everybody, every time they ask him, like, oh my gosh, you like doing shoots? Oh. I love my wife. Oh. I'm like, so wholesome. Love you. So cute. And it's so true.
SPEAKER_01Because, like, let's be honest, what guy likes a chance? I know. It's not like they're they want to do it. But he does. But he likes you.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_00And I think travel brings an experience for us as a couple. Like even if we're working.
SPEAKER_01Something fun for him too. Yeah. Not that, like, I mean, it's probably fun to hang out with you and kiss you and all the things, but like, that's like something for him too. Like, yeah, it's like a bug.
SPEAKER_00I'm I'm running out of time. I feel like. I feel like, especially in our community with just pressure to grow up and have your way. Like, so kids, all this stuff. I feel like I'm like, I have a timer. I feel like that too. I feel like like literally like a timer over my hand. And it's running out. And I like it's kind of recently like I don't know what happened, but I just panicked. I want like the last two years have been some of the best and some of the worst times, like for so many things. But like I want to make the most out of this opportunity. Like, I want modeling to be a way I can travel. I've always wanted to um travel somehow in my career later on. Um, this can be a great way to get into marketing with brands I'm passionate about. Like, I want modeling to be the photos are great. And like at the end of the day, modeling is not my end goal. Like, I wanted to bring lifelong friends, I wanted to bring traveling experiences that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and I wanted to just bring more growth and I'll clean it up after.
SPEAKER_01Totally spilled my Alani.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, traveling is so important for me. And I feel like recent, like I've lost that desire to travel because I just, I don't know, I just got stuck in my bubble and I'm realizing I can literally get paid to travel. Yeah. Have a time of my life and get cute photos.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Get it, Queen. Get it. Yes. Okay, so any basically something you're like, I don't know how to categorize this, but something you're like genuinely excited about, I guess, like is the opportunities you want. Like, so like traveling, what like vibe? Because you mentioned at the beginning, like you can be cowgirl and sexy and blah blah blah, all these things. Like, what do you feel like you are like how your specialty is? I don't know if that's like the right.
SPEAKER_00Like, I feel like I was doing Western for a while, like luxury western, like money western. I love that vibe. And Jackson Hole just screams. Yeah, really.
SPEAKER_01So I love it. I feel like I see you guys do a lot of like it's giving like rom-com. I don't know if that's like the right okay. Well, not rom com, but like like more like cinematic, romantic. Okay. Like, like I feel like I see, I don't know if you've done a shoot like this, but I see you guys, like in my head, you guys are like the couple that can do a photo shoot in a coffee shop and in a bookstore and a and a painting shoot.
SPEAKER_00And like, like un I don't know if unconventional is the right word. Like, like this sounds basic. I don't even know if I'm using this word right, but like storytelling, like yeah.
SPEAKER_01More like instead of like we're gonna go into a field and just take pretty photos just to take pretty photos. Yeah, I feel like it's more, yeah, storytelling. Like there's like a plot. There's like a we go to the bookstore and we like, haven't you done one in a bookstore? Or am I crazy? Yeah, like I feel like you guys are the more like create, like in my head, creative. I don't know if that's like what you're going for or not.
SPEAKER_00I am so going for that. Anything creative is like up here for me. Okay, like I I'm sorry, but like if you're a model, stop taking pictures that look like senior portraits. Yeah, for real. Like, be careful, like that's not gonna help you stand out. Swipe, swipe, swipe. Yeah. Like I love concepts that are driven by that sounds so like, oh my gosh, like I'm a creative director. No.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm like, I feel like that's how it makes sense. So that's how you stand out as a model. It's like if everyone's modeling, everyone's pretty, everyone's taking whatever photos, like you stand out by doing more creative shoots. Like that's how photographers stand out. Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, like, I guess, yeah, I do like storytelling opportunities. Tell me if I'm like putting words in your mouth. That's just like what I've noticed from my perspective. I think so. Cause I want, I think I want to feel when I see photos. Like, I love editorial, like slay. But it can't just be editorial. Yeah. It has to like drive emotion. Like I love pictures that can make me cry. Yes. Even though it's like very easy to make me cry. Do you cry ever when you see galleries? Like when you get photos of you in Easton? I think. Sorry, this is so random. I've gone so many galleries, uh, it um it sounds funny, but if it has music in the background, yes. No, that's so fair.
SPEAKER_01Or like, do you ever okay, like what types of phot sorry, I said last question. Maybe this is the last question. What things okay, I guess this is helpful for photographers, maybe since you're someone who get who sees so many photographers work, or like, yeah, work from so many different photographers, whatever. What makes photos? I know you said feel something, but like maybe something more like tangible. What makes photos stand out slash a gallery stand out or like photographers' work? Because you are personally working with so many photographers. So what makes people's work stand out to you? Um is it editing style? Is it the posing? Is it the crop? Like, what is it?
SPEAKER_00Editing style people have their preferences with editing style. Like, do you have a preference? I have a couple of preferences. Like, I love like how would you describe your I always struggle with this.
SPEAKER_01I say, I don't know. I people, it's not light and airy. People sometimes try to say light and airy on my own. Which is so funny. Not what I do. It's so hilarious to me. I would say it's saturated, but not really vibrant. Vibrant. It's vibrant. Um, I say true to color but better, or like warm true to color, I guess. So it's like not like I don't know. I still struggle with this because I do feel like I have a very basic editing style. I feel like there's nothing spectacular about it, but I feel like that's what I like about it is that it it okay. I like when people say it it looks how it felt. I like when people say that. Like I just did a shoot with my sibling the other day, and it was literally just for TikTok. It was just for content, it was for fun. But we did a shoot at like a diner and it was like low light and it was really cool. Uh it was super fun. We were just messing around, like some mod ties on TikTok. We were just like, oh, let's see if we can make money from this. Whatever. It was just stupid. But um my sibling Kimber, who was in one of the last episodes, if you listen to the horror stories episode, but anyway, Kimber was like, oh, these photos look like how it felt when we were taking them. And I was like, that's what I'm going for. Like, it's not like I don't want it to be like, oh, why do the colors look like that? Or what is it? It's like I want it to like look how it felt. So I don't know. I don't I always struggle with how to explain the colors, but like vibrant and like true, true to how it felt, I guess. I don't know. I don't know how else to explain it. I'm so about and I really should be able to, but I just feel like it's very basic. Like I feel like there's I don't think it is.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how to explain it. It right off the bat, you would think it's basic, but it just I think that vibrant side, there's something about your photos that are vibrant in a different way.
SPEAKER_01I like to, I think I try to make them like punchy and like clean. I don't know, not punchy and like, I don't know if that's the right word, but like I like them to pop. I try to get like every photo to pop. I don't like it to feel like muted or flat. So they're not like overly saturated, but I like it to feel like very clean and like each photo is like it pops.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if that's yeah, without feeling artificial. Yeah, without feeling like overly, I don't know. I don't know how to explain my own editing stuff. I like that. Um I feel like I bounce in between that type of style and like cinematic and cinematic, or like what like tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth. I just I was like trying to guess what you were gonna say. As far as editing style, like warm, grainy, like I love it, I belong in the mountains type vibe. My desires go back and forth between those two. Like every other day. I'm like, what if I switch my editing stuff? That's hilarious. But yeah, I feel like, and I feel like it's really important for photographers to have consistency in that because there are some photographers that intentionally change their editing style for each shoot, which I'm like, I get like it's a different vibe or a different feel you're going for. But as a client, yep, that's so confusing. And not that that's the reason why there are so many horror stories. I honestly think clients don't think about it, but like it helps when you have a clear, yeah. You know what you're gonna get. You know what you're gonna get. There's no inconsistency in your editing style. I guess that would help from a model perspective too, because it's like it helps you know if you want to work with someone, like you know what you'll get if you work with them. Like exactly. So like editing style details. Like I am such a detail-oriented person from and for clients, it's more so like the extra touch, like you send a present for them booking with you, or like a little welcome or whatever, or at the end of the night of a wedding night. I love how people do a little like Polaroid albums. Yeah, give it to them, like something tangible that sounds so materialistic, but like no, it's not, it's like an experience thing, yeah. And it's like they not they love you, that's a big word, but like you mean the world to them, yeah, as a client. People want to feel special, yeah, and so that's a way to feel special, but also on the camera, detail-oriented, you care about how their hair looks, you care about like the rings that they're wearing that they contemplated wearing or not, like you are like people will overthink their outfits, and so like to capture the small details, like yeah, and make them beautiful and highlight them. Yeah, just like I don't know. No, I love that. Like, I just love when people capture small moments or like when they do cropping, cropping of different like parts of the like hands, lips, like whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's very such a sucker. I love that kind of it's just thunder to me.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, yeah, and knowing how to pose huge. I feel like I what okay, I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_01I that made me think of a question. I feel like you're gonna ask exactly what my thoughts are going.
SPEAKER_00It's gonna be really embarrassing if I'm not. But um, okay, with models, do you prefer us to like would you rather have a model that like is doing all the poses? So I knew you were gonna ask that.
SPEAKER_01I literally knew you were gonna ask that.
SPEAKER_00Naturally, or do you want to be I don't know, it's funny.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna ask you your thoughts on it. I was gonna say, do you feel like it's the model's job to pose or the photographers? I don't know if there's yeah, both.
SPEAKER_00That's how I feel.
SPEAKER_01But how do you measure or how do you make it blend? Okay, I feel like it depends who I feel like I'm talking about first dating. It depends like, because in my opinion, like this is so off topic. The person who should pay on the first date is whoever asks the other person on the first date. And it kind of feels like that. Whoever initiated the shoe or had the vision for the shoe should be the one to initiate the posing, I guess. I don't know, that's like my personal, like just off the top of my head, like if someone's like, hey, I have an idea for like a shoot in the lake, and I want you to be jumping in the lake and blah blah blah, and the models are like, okay, I'm game. The photographer should show up with like the vision and be like, I want you to do this, this, and this. And then if the models think of things, yeah, I want to do this, this, and this too, awesome, great, let's collaborate. But I feel like if the photographer expects the models to do everything and they just show up with the location, it's like, well, I thought you had the idea for the shoot. The time where I feel like models should be like able to pose themselves is for like a full content day. If the photographer, if the host photographer has explained that they will be on their own for posing. So, like, I've attended content days where they're more beginner photographer oriented and the host photographer has six different groups going on. So the host photographer won't be with the beginners while they're being posed, and so it's expected that the couple is posing themselves because the beginners don't really know what they're doing. That makes sense. So, but I feel like that has to be communicated ahead of time and it has to be like, are you guys comfortable posing yourselves? Okay. But like, can you do that? Here's a list of some ideas, something like that.
SPEAKER_00And that's valuable for a model to have if like you know how to pose. Because sometimes I'll be honest, like posing is not my strongest, like my strong suit. Yeah. Yeah. My strong suit. Um, I think there can be times, but I feel like a goldfish, like I have to go back to my phone, go into my inspo. Oh yeah, I wanted this shot. Yeah, this pose. I feel like that can be irritating to a photographer sometimes. If give me a second, you know, I feel like I feel like unless there's a time crunch, I feel like it's okay. Like, but like I I also feel bad if like we're posing and they're clicking and they're expect like, do you expect us to keep moving? Or I want to make sure you get this shot. Okay, this is just totally dependent on the photographer.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna give you my thoughts on it. I think okay, honestly, okay, I'm gonna this has totally gotta be a two-part episode. Okay, so my personal thoughts are sometimes if you put someone in a position, you need to figure out your angle. Sometimes I put you in the perfect pose and I know it's the perfect pose, but I don't know what angle I want yet. And so I need you to literally not move while I try to find my angle. Yeah. Um, and so I've worked with models who are constantly moving, and like I've also heard some photographers say they love that. But for me personally, I do think I tend to take a little more of like a romantic, slightly editorial approach nowadays. I feel like, and so for me, I feel like a lot a lot of it is about angles and stuff. And so it starts to bother me because I'm like, no, no, no, I need to get my angle like this is like I'm trying to get fancy and creative with my angle, like stop moving. Um, and so I try to tell people, like, hey, don't like, don't move. This is perfect, just stare at there for one second. I love that, yeah. I try to say that, or like if I want you to move around, I'll tell you, like, okay, just like sway back and forth, pick her up, whatever you want to do, like move around. So I feel like instruction from the photographer, even if you're gonna do some of your own posing, is helpful. Like, hey, you can move around, or like, actually, can you just stay still for a second? I need to get this angle. So I feel like communicating, I guess, but it's hard when it's like a group and it's like you don't know. So I feel like in general, I've heard more photographers say they like movement, but me personally, I feel like there are I like movement. Everyone likes movement, but I feel like there are times when it's too much movement and I need someone to just stay still, and it's been like annoying almost. But I feel like that's a communication thing. Like I feel like it depends on the photographer. So I feel like it needs to be like, hey, like maybe you ask, hey, we can do more movement, or we can like stay still and wait for you guys to direct. What do you prefer?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or the photographer could tell you. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I think in content sheets, I think it's good to move around because I think after a while, like, and I think as a model, you have to consciously like see where the photographers are. If they're like running to like go to the other photographer's spot, you obviously stay there. Yeah, that's a good shape. Like being aware, yeah. Read the room. Yeah, read the room. Read the room. But one-on-one or like smaller groups, I I find myself saying, Okay, can I move? Like, I just want to make sure that I'm like not I feel like that's okay. Yeah, I just I wish sometimes uh photographers had a little bit more communication. Like, hold it right there. Yeah, okay, do whatever you want. You can move around, or I already got that shot I was thinking of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I don't know what it looks like from the camera. I wish I did.
SPEAKER_01Or you don't know if they got their shot yet. You don't know if they're waiting for you to move or like whatever. So I guess, yeah, communication, like which I do think is more on the photographer, in my opinion, because that it's like posing is the photographer's job. Like, I maybe some people would say, oh, posing is also the model's job. I think it's both, like you said, but I do feel like the photographer is responsible for responsible for communicating what they want because like you're not behind the camera, like they know what they need. So I do feel like they should be responsible for saying like you can move or don't move or whatever.
SPEAKER_00And I think I guess going back to that initial question um before I spiraled. Um I think something else that makes a photographer stand out in my eyes is whether they're being considerate of my vision. Like, obviously, even if you book me, I think it's so sweet when somebody says, even like with planning, like the details of the shoe, the dress, the whatever, the florals, whatever. I think it's so sweet when a photographer um says, Hey, like Anna, what do you think about this? Um, I was thinking of adding this like brooch. Like, do you think that would look good? Just like it makes me feel like involved. Yeah. And as somebody who loves the creative aspect, it makes me feel valued for creative and not just as a model. Yeah. And so during a shoe, I love when photographers are like aware and they say, Hey, I got the shots all I was like that I was thinking of. Do you have any cool shots that you want to do? I love that, yeah. Yeah, just I love that they're thoughtful about that. Like, what shots do you want? What shots will benefit you as a model too. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I didn't even think about that.
SPEAKER_00I don't know why.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Like, I'm sure it No, that's well, that's true. It's like, I feel like photographers get sucked in on like, this is my vision, these are the shots I need for my portfolio, but it's like this is for the model's portfolio too. Like, yeah. And I do the same thing. Like, sometimes I'll ask venue owners, like, hey, are there any shots of the venue that you really want, or like whatever? Like, that's awesome. Every vendor needs like their every vendor has specific photos they need in their portfolio or whatever you want to call it. So, like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00With content shoots, I think the coolest photographers are not the loudest, are not the all over, the ones directing everybody. They're the ones that get vendor shots. Yeah. And that are thoughtful about every single party in the shoe. Like, I think it's so neat because I think content shoes can feel very selfish. Like, you just want the perfect shot of the couple. I agree. But like taking the time to get the little details, the vendors who poured their heart into this TFP shoe. Like, it's so cool to see photographers who value that and who at least get a few shots of it so that those vendors have something. Yeah. Like they're not just thinking about me, me, me. They're thinking about the overall picture and the benefit. Yeah, I love that. I had a thought and I wish I could explain it, but it just stuck me. So um, but along like, what is your why and what is the end goal? Like, what will leave you like feeling I can quit now if I wanted to? Like I've done it. I have never been asked that question.
SPEAKER_01Let me think for a second. I know it's kind of like a weird no, I love that question. I feel like this is gonna sound so cheesy and so cringy. I feel like I'm a very like in my feels person. Like I'm a very emotional person. Okay. Me too. And I just like I like I used to want to be a teacher, and for a while I wanted to be a therapist and like whatever. Anything I've wanted to do has like somehow been centered around like helping people leaving an impact, whatever. And I genuinely, this sounds like I'm just saying this because it sounds good or whatever, but I I feel like I would be ready to retire or like switch careers, whatever you want to say. Like, I would be ready to be done when I feel like I've impacted enough people for the better. I had one bride who um was very self-conscious, like getting her photo taken, and like she sent me a text after her wedding day and said, like, I made her feel so comfortable and beautiful and like such a vulnerable time. That like literally got me. That like that would make me sob. And I literally was like, that I'm gonna cry. That meant like the world to me because, like, as a girl, I just I know, you know what I mean? Like, I know how that feels. Like, and I know like how it feels to look back and not think you were pretty in your wedding photos. Like, honestly, like I didn't think I looked good on my wedding day. It wasn't my photographer. It was sorry. I'm sorry. I cried very easily. Oh my gosh. No, but like, no, you're literally fine. But like, um, I was just like needed to go like hand you a napkin or something, and I was just gonna go for the popcorn bowl. I don't know why. Like, what that's not helpful. Okay, um, no, but like that meant the world to me, or like there was someone who I had a couple who got married at a school because her grandparents were going to, or I would think it was her grandpa was very old and he like could not travel to where they were getting married. I can't listen to these items. They I want to do a podcast where it's like the sweet stories instead of before stories. I feel like that'd be so fun. But um, that would be a cry one. But she they got married there and it was at a school, and they did it so that her grandpa could walk her down the aisle. And like her grandpa passed away like a few months after the wedding. And I'm like, I took the last photos you have of him. Like, I took, you know what I mean? Like that means so much more to me than I'd post this perfect photo on Instagram and I, whatever, or like someone framing a picture in their house that I took means like so 10 times more than posting a photo on Instagram. You know what I mean? It's just like feeling like I'm impacting people. I'm giving their photos of their kids that they're gonna look back on in 10 years. I'm giving them the last photos they have with their grandparents. I'm giving them like photos that make them feel beautiful. Like I, you know what I mean? Like they feel like they like their body and normally they don't. You know what I mean? Just like things where I feel like I'm adding an impact that's more than just pretty photos for Instagram. So I feel like that's like my, that was not originally my why. Originally my why is ooh, I can make money for this so real and this is fun and it's it's money and it's whatever. It was just like, oh, I want to be an entrepreneur. But now it's like I want to leave an impact. And I feel like once I, I don't know what the number is, but once I feel like I've impacted enough people, like, where I feel like I've left like a big impact on like an an amount of people, then I feel like I'd be like, okay, I I've made my impact. You know what I mean? Like, which I don't know when I'll ever feel like it's enough people, and maybe I never will, but I feel like I want to have like impact enough people for the better to feel like like it was a big chunk of people. Like I helped a lot of people and like made a lot of people happy. Like that's that's my why now was totally not my why originally, but like as I've seen how photography has affected people now, that's my why. So anyway, yeah. Sorry for making it. Oh, it's okay. Oh my gosh. I you know, I think photographers definitely take it for granted sometimes too. That like it's like, oh, just edit so many photos, oh, it's gonna take forever, oh, weddings are so tiring, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like you really do take for granted sometimes. I mean, even me, I'm guilty of it. I love my job and it's like means so much to me. But that's like when you're asking me and I'm thinking about it, but I don't, I'm not always feeling that like that strongly, like it's like stressful and it's like, oh, this is tiring, and I don't want to do this, and blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like you start to take it for granted, and it's like, these are people's memories, like these are like the most important things ever to people. Like, so anyway, it's like a good, it's a good reminder that it's like to keep that in mind when like everyone's in busy season right now, and or maybe you're not, maybe you're not getting enough bookings and you're frustrated. But it's like, even if you're impacting one person every year, it's like that's a big deal, you know what I mean? Like, it is. Anyway, this has been great. Okay, guys, go follow Anna. Um, stay tuned for our shoot and our next podcast episode. Yes, coming soon. Coming soon-ish when we move to the East Coast. Exactly. Like four years ago. Yeah, four years today. Anyway, thank you guys so much for listening. Have a great rest of your day. Oh, and I do a we do a kiss to end the podcast. So we do. Like I don't know if it ever comes through in the audio, but I always be like, have a great rest of your day. Bye. Okay. So we do it together. Okay, have a great rest of your day. Bye.