John 

Hello and welcome to Human Stories Behind Robots, a podcast from the UK RAS network exploring the people behind robotics research and innovation. In this series, we'll be speaking with researchers, engineers, entrepreneurs, and innovators from across the robotics community to uncover the personal stories behind their careers. We will explore the moments that inspire them, the challenges they have overcome, the lessons they have learned, and the experiences that have shaped who they are today. Because behind every breakthrough, behind every innovation and every robot, there is a human story. I'm your host, Dr John Oyekan.

What does success actually look like? What should my future look like? Is it becoming a professor? Is it raising millions in investment? Is it building a company? Is it creating work that reflects my own values and the life I want to live? For many early career researchers, there comes a point where the traditional academic path no longer feels like the only option. However, stepping into the unknown can feel daunting.

How do you know when to take a leap? How do you build a confidence when you've never done something before? And what does it really take to turn research into real world impact? In today's episode, I'm joined by Matthew, CEO and co-founder of Ice9 Robotics. Matthew shares his journey from PhD researcher to founder of a robotics company, developing solutions for some of the world's most challenging environments. Along the way, we explore mentorship, leadership, networking, work-life balance, and why building a successful company does not mean sacrificing the life you want to live.

Whether you're thinking about commercialising your research, exploring careers beyond academia, or simply looking for reassurance that there isn't one right path, you will find plenty to reflect on in this episode of The Human Stories Behind the Robot. So let's get started.

John 
Good morning. Our guest today is Dr. Matthew Nancekievill. He is the co-founder and CEO of Ice Nine Robotics.

Ice Nine Robotics is a company that develops robotic solutions for inspection and characterisation of hazardous environments. Matthew holds a PhD from the University of Manchester on the radiation tolerance of robotic systems and he over a decade of experience in the field. Matthew has completed commercial-based schemes such as the ICU and the Royal Academy of Engineering Enterprise Fellowship.

As a CEO, he has been through a variety of business incubators and accelerators. Good morning Matthew. How are you doing today?

Matthew Nancekievill 
Good morning.

John
Right, my first question is why Ice 9?

Matthew Nancekievill (00:58)
Why the name or why the company?

John
Both why the name and why the company because I know that when when you're trying to create a a company it's also related to to to the name as well.

Matthew Nancekievill 

Yeah, so the name is an interesting story actually. So my co-founder Barry Lennox, who's a professor at the University of Manchester, he's a big Kurt Vonnegut fan, the author, and one of his favourite books is Cats Cradle and Ice Nine is a character from that book. So that's where Ice Nine came from. In terms of the business, so I did a bunch of academic positions, primarily as a postdoc research associate, and I just got to this point where I developed quite a few of what I thought was interesting technology, but at the end of a research contract, it had the tendency to kind of sit on a shelf gathering dust. And I really want it to actually impact industry and be used in the wild. So I thought, you why don't I spit out a company and try and try and do that.

John 
Brilliant. So Ice Nine is a character from a science fiction book So what's the name of the science fiction book again?

Matthew Nancekievill 
So the book is called Cats Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. Ice Nine as a character has, whenever it touches water, it freezes. So

John 
Okay.

Matthew Nancekievill 
generally it has the ability to unfortunately impact all of life on Earth. And there's a slight analogy to the nuclear weapons arms race, which is quite ironic because we work in nuclear. But I wasn't aware of this until after it became a legal name.

John 
That's that's quite interesting. So so do you do you read a lot of science fictions on your own then?

Matthew Nancekievill 
So I used to read a lot more. found being a CEO, I read a lot less than I'd like to. My books have changed from sci-fi to work and how to run a business.

John 
Okay. So so in terms of business, right? You know, there are many challenges of of of running a company. Have you found the support from the UK ecosystem?

Matthew Nancekievill 
So it's an interesting one. Whenever I've reached out to fellow entrepreneurs or founders, they can't give enough of their time. They're really, really quite helpful, especially when you go through schemes like the Enterprise Fellowship at the Royal Academy of Engineering. found generally if you're a small business owner, you just want to help other small business owners do the same thing. So I found it a really quite enjoyable experience.

John 
Hm. So it seems to me that You look for people on the same journey as you and then you come together and face the challenges together and help each other where you get stuck. So I I guess that's what you are you're trying to tell us in in in essence.

Matthew Nancekievill 
Yeah, exactly. was never a big fan of networking, but it turns out actually it's really quite important. And when you start looking for like-minded individuals, you find them in places sometimes where you wouldn't expect. I've kind of developed a group of mentors that have maybe been through the process. And I'll now work with them quite a lot, just as a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.

John (03:56)
Yeah, that that's that that's brilliant. And when you're looking for a mentor, is there particular characteristics or or or features you're looking for?

Matthew Nancekievill (04:07)
I generally say it's weird how you define experience because I was going to say somebody with a lot of experience but that could be in quite a few different areas.

I think it's important that you feel safe sharing your ideas with them and what I mean by that is that there's no stupid question, no stupid answers. There's a way that you can just go around having this problem. I've never had to deal with it before. What you think? And they might not have the best solution, but being able to even just vocalise it may help you come to some sort of conclusion. So I've generally found somebody that you can talk to really easily over a cup of coffee, even though I don't drink coffee. That's the sort of person that you want as a mentor.

John 
And then that's quite interesting what you said there because I mean I also have mentors who are, you know, higher than your experience, but also have mentors who are peers. And one of one of the challenges, of course, is that you get all this advice and then you have to of course distill it to your own situation. Have you found that distilling process?

Matthew Nancekievill 
It's changed as I've got more experience. So at the beginning, I would almost take a lot of what they suggested as gospel is that that was the way to do it. And that was how you should do it. As I've progressed and as I've learned from my mistakes and my successes, I now take a bit more kind of like, well, that's a very good idea. But actually, I'm going to do it this way, which might be close, but it's it's slightly changed. So I've found over time becoming a bit more confident in my own decisions.

That's only happened because they've given me the confidence from before. that relationship with your mentor definitely changes as time goes on because you're now working in a slightly different space than you were when you first

John 
Hmm.

Matthew Nancekievill 
started that relationship.

John 
Yeah, which is which is brilliant, and that and that's the beauty of having a mentor or a tribe, or should I say, of mentors, because you know you start as being in confidence, but as you have a chat with them, they build you up and you learn a lot of things from them, from their life experiences, from the way they've tackled problems, and then that gives you confidence, and then as time goes on, even that relationship might change to you know to being a friend instead of being a mentor, and that's good because at that switch, you know, it's this part your development or once development process as well but one one of the things I I find quite interesting about the path you've taken because you went from PhD you jumped straight into a into a startup I mean what books helped you out in making that translation or because when I speak to various business people or people are starting at it's like you know what you need to get your hands dirty that's the only way you're gonna learn so has been the experience for you for for you

Matthew Nancekievill 
Yeah, I maybe characterise it as a whirlwind. It started with doing various things like, this is where university technology transfer offices are quite good in that they offer various bits of support in terms of there was a research to innovation workshop or series of workshops that was put on, which gives you very broad overview of all the different topics. And so you'd kind of go that. They then recommend some of the classic books like The Lean Startup and how to influence and influence people and the why, you know, all starts with why, those sorts of things that get you thinking about how you would approach it yourself. And then it is, yeah, just about getting your hands dirty and giving it a go and try something, see if it works. If it doesn't work, try something else and just keep iterating that iterative process.

John
I think one of the things I because I've also read the the Lane startup and one of the things I I learned from there was a slow burn because you have

Matthew Nancekievill 
Mm-hmm.

John 
to you know and what that means for for for listeners is that you try you have a pot of money and you try to slowly burn it or slow gear it as much as possible because you want to extend that finance to do as much impact, you know, that you can and not just burn for the sake of it. I mean so have you balance that? I mean in terms of your your company, your your team and so on and so forth.

Matthew Nancekievill 
Yeah, as an individual, as a person in society, you always know how much is in your bank account. And so you've got this kind of inherent idea of a burn rate of I've got this much money, how much can I spend? When it switched to being in charge of a business bank account, you're going, yeah, but this business just stops working if it's, you know, in however many weeks it is based on how much money is there. It's a real kind of pressure that only builds when you start bringing people on. So as soon as I started recruiting people, go, well,

They've got mortgages, they've got kids, they've got other things going on in their life and if I'm not bringing in money then unfortunately the computers succeed and that will impact their life. What I have found there is that there is a flip side that's kind of exciting around that where I love the responsibility in a way that I get to impact people in this way, right? I get to support them in what they're trying to do.

The feeling kind of stays the same as it grows. So whereas before I'd be arguing over, oh, do I really need to spend one pound on that? Now it's kind of, do I really need to spend a hundred pounds on that? You know, the numbers change, but the emotions stay the same. it's a really interesting dynamic as you progress. it's terrifying, but also exciting to have that sort of responsibility.

John
Hmm. And and and then I mean to tie into that is I mean what what would be the key challenges in in day to day of running a business?

Matthew Nancekievill 
For me, it's every day is a little bit different. So this morning I had a couple of meetings around writing funding proposals for a specific application. This afternoon, I'm probably going to be doing a bit of LinkedIn posting in social media and marketing. Tomorrow, I might be ordering new logo t-shirts

John (10:05)
Mm.

Matthew Nancekievill
and then I'll be doing payroll on Thursday. You know, it's constantly.

swapping your brain to get into the groove of a new topic or something that's slightly different. That I found quite difficult. And then more personally, one of the biggest challenges has been I trained very technically. I'm a

John 
Mm-hmm.

Matthew Nancekievill 
technical, I would class as a technical founder, letting go of some of the technical so that other people are doing it whilst I'm doing the business development has been quite a challenge in that.

I just, I want to get my hands dirty with the tech, with the robots. So I don't necessarily want to be doing the rest of it, but I've grown to love the rest of it. It's just been a, been a journey to get there.

John
Yeah, yeah. And it's quite interesting you you you say that because from from a and I'm trying to draw parallels, you know, with academia, because in academia the higher you go, the the farther away it seems you get away from the lab. Not because you you not because you want to, it's just that your team grows, your number of responsibility grows, your di the demands on your time also grows. So it's trying to balance up, you know, how how do I manage the team was you know was was was was the biggest challenge they've got how to take out the best in them but also at the same time you know keeping an eye on the technical output so I I I guess my question there is how do you bring out the best in your in your team

Matthew Nancekievill 
So I like to think of myself or I try to enact a bit of a bulldozer mentality. So I try and get things out of the way that mean that they can concentrate on what they're good at. And

John 
Nice.

Matthew Nancekievill 
sometimes that means doing some boring jobs. So it's things like risk assessments or administrative paperwork We work in highly regulated sites. So getting people on and off sites is sometimes a challenge. rather than getting them to spend a long time doing it, I can

do it more sensually and take some of the onus off of them. it's reminding myself constantly why they are an engineer within the company and it's to build robots and design robots and to make them better. And so what can I do to make sure that they're spending the vast majority of their time doing that rather than something that takes them away from that? I mean, in academia, this is this is a massive challenge. remember, you know, risk assessments are really important. Don't get me wrong.

John 
Mm-hmm.

Matthew Nancekievill 
But I would spend large periods of time doing risk assessments for experiments rather than actually doing the experiment. Whereas now I'll do quite a lot of the risk assessments with their input, obviously, because they're doing it. But they then don't have to spend so much time doing that administrative burden, and they can do a lot more of the interesting work.

John 
That's quite interesting. So taking away the hurdles that team members may face and then freeing them to to do the the tasks they are they are good at and and and and and that's quite a very good strategy. And because you spend some time in academia, you know, but you've taken an unconventional route. So what are some things that academics misunderstand about startups?

Matthew Nancekievill
I think there's a general misunderstanding or guess mismatch between academia and maybe if I start with industry first We've got this really cool interesting bit of kit. The industry should be using it day in day out and deploying it without necessarily understanding all of the different things that go into a successful deployment on an industrial site. So you need a lot of buying from a lot of different people. There are very real safety concerns for their various bits, especially in the area that we work in in nuclear, there's cultural things. And there is a reason why they do things the way they do things right now. You might disagree with it, but there is a reason. It's built up over decades. So I think sometimes there's a naivety within academia around how quickly industry should accept and adopt the technology that they're developing. So that's been something that I've found quite eye opening.

In terms of startups, think startups comes in lots of different shapes and sizes. We've bootstrapped, so we're quite a small company that stayed quite small and are slowly growing. You get those that get massive VC funding in and take on funding rounds like seed funding rounds of four to 10 million pounds. They take quite different routes. So I think sometimes there isn't an understanding that there is probably a startup that's relevant to you that's doing things the way that you would like to and you can engage with lots of different types of people. It's not always this reshooting to be a unicorn and make billions and billions of pounds and all of that. There's quite a few out there that like the slow, pure, steady set up. And I think that's not really well understood in academia is that there's lots of different ways to do industry and do startups.

John 
But that's quite interesting you say that because it seems as if you've tied the startup to a personality, your personality or your or the way you see the world. Because there'll be some people that yes, you know, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be a unicorn and that is it. But there are some people as you say that you know, they like the slow burn, steady pace and and continuous input of of of of of funding to slowly grow grow the company. And I guess and and I guess the question then is is there advantage and a disadvantage of both sides sides of of of things?

Matthew Nancekievill
Definitely. And I think you bring a good point around Tyler to the personality a bit. So there's a way I want to run this company and it's the way that I think is the best way of running this company. But that's not the only way to do it. There's lots of different ways. I think advantages for me, and so I guess the reasons why I do it the way that I do it is it keeps the work really interesting and really diverse. And we kind of retain control of everything that we do.

So I don't have anybody over my shoulder going, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do this. Yes, we're signed up to contracts, so there's always a bit of that. But I get to pick what contracts I go for and, therefore, the work that we do. And that's one of the biggest advantages for me. That quite nicely ties into work-life balance and going, I know what the contracts are, I'm not going to take on too many or try not to take on too many because there's always busy periods. You can't escape busy periods forever in any industry. But we try really hard to make sure that we have quite a consistent bit of work so we get that work-life balance. Disadvantages are, you know, it's because the company is then not flush with cash because you don't have this investment, there are certain things you have to take on the chin. So we will grow slower. So if we want a new bit of equipment that would make our lives easier, it's probably going to take us longer to get it. our offices are going to be a little bit smaller and less swanky. And in the recent heat wave, had no air conditioning. There's disadvantages

John 
Yeah.

Matthew Nancekievill 
to it too. Similarly, if you went the VC route, the biggest disadvantage to me personally is the complete lack of control of that environment. I'm sure that people argue with me about that control and who retains control. But I think the truth is that you have a monkey on your back now that is just, I need to 10x this company and I don't really care if it's your company or the other nine companies that I'm funding at the same time. I just need to 10x something. And that leads to poor work-life balance, burnout. And it will make some people very, very rich at some point. But I'm quite happy with my life.

I don't feel like I need that personally and so that's how I've tied that to my personality and how I run it.

John 
Mm, quite, quite interesting there. So so in terms of the skills that you've found, you know, because you have you you have a doctorate and you're running a business and have you seen some skills that you've transferred or translated from academia into a startup ecosystem?

Matthew Nancekievill 
Yeah, definitely. think initially it didn't feel like it at all. It felt like why have I done a PhD and then become a CEO because it's just not lining up. But as I've got further through it, just that ability to teach myself how to do things, I now look at almost everything I do as a CEO as an engineering problem. And the way I approach it is as a way that I learned during the PhD and then the research associate position that followed where I need to try and add thousand followers to a LinkedIn page to get some exposure. How do I do that? Right. I research search engine optimisation. I research how do I write a good post? What are the good pictures? And then I figure it out. At no point in my PhD did I ever have to do social media management, but I learned how to approach the problem because in my PhD I was approaching problems that nobody had done before and didn't know how to do it. So it's just figuring out the best way of doing it.

It's more the soft skills around it rather than necessarily the technical skills. Having said that, I was involved in a project recently which required some knowledge on radiation tolerance of electronic components. So we wouldn't have got that bit of work without that technical knowledge from the PhD. But that's a small contract in the grand scheme of everything that Ice Nine has done. So it's generally more the soft skills of doing the PhD.

John 
Hmm. I see. So so as as the research kind of training helped you out in one way or the other, the way you've run your startup?

Matthew Nancekievill 
I definitely think so, yeah. And generally who I've employed has come from that academic background as well. And it's because the sort of robotics that we do is still very linked to where academia is. It's not become commonplace across the country yet. So you end up with similar like-minded people that come from similar backgrounds doing that work.

So understanding that university lifestyle, the way they operate has been really useful for managing within the company. And we actually run our day-to-day flexibility and hours very similar to how the university did because that's what we're all quite comfortable with. And that's why we did PhDs and postdocs and now why we're in a startup because it's that same sort of

John 
Mm mm.

Matthew Nancekievill 
way of working.

John 
Yeah, that's that's that that that's brilliant. And in it you you mentioned LinkedIn strategy, which you know is is a skill in itself and some academics shy away from, you know LinkedIn and and and and everything. How has that been helpful for you in growing your business?

Matthew Nancekievill 
Yeah, what I'd say is that I'm still very bad at doing it for my personal profile because I just get embarrassed and I tend not to like to do that, but it's been really important for the business and getting that exposure. And what I found is you don't really get many in the way of direct approaches through LinkedIn of can you do this bit of work for us or we really want to corporate your services. What you do get a lot of though is you go to an event and people recognise you and

They come over and say, I saw some of the things that you put up on LinkedIn. I do have this challenge. Can we have a chat about it? And it's never directly on LinkedIn. And it might also be that, six months ago, I saw this on LinkedIn, but I'm only just seeing you now in an event. Let's have a chat. It's really that buildup of trust within that robotics ecosystem that you can only really get by doing things like LinkedIn and turning up at events and letting people know what you're doing.

John 
Mm. So that's a dual strategy you you're pursuing there. So you have the LinkedIn post but attending events too is also very, very important because then people can put a name to the face and then you can have a a a proper conversation as to what the challenges are and yeah and then from there you plan the next steps of actions to take. That that's quite interesting. So from your career so far, you

What moment in it did you experience a mental shift and a change of your view of the world?

Matthew Nancekievill 
We've ended up talking about a PhD quite a bit, but it has to be when I applied for a PhD. the reason behind it was I had just finished my Bachelor's of Engineering. I was due to go do my Masters at the university, but a advert came up for a PhD. I was talking with my family at the time and going, I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do post-university, but maybe go work for a big engineering firm and kind of do the grad scheme and progress like that. And then I saw this advert and go, you know what, that project sounds.

incredibly interesting. That's that, you know, radiation tolerance and electronic components and there was talk about an underground robot as well. I thought I'll apply for it just to go through the process so that when I finish my masters I'll have them, you know, I'll look to maybe do something like this. And I was in a very fortunate position where I ended up being accepted onto that PhD programme, which then completely changed how I saw everything.

Now I was in an environment where I was doing my own research and I was in control of my day to day, which I really enjoyed. I struggled quite a bit with the day to day lectures and lab work of undergrad, but I really enjoyed being in control of a PhD. And because that PhD was funded by the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, the UK nuclear body, that then got me into nuclear for the first time, which is then everything can be traced back to that point.

but I think that was the biggest change of where I thought my career was going with grad schemes to you know an ABB or a BP or something like that to run in a start-up it all went from there.

John 
Hm. so what advice then will you give your your younger self of shall we say five, ten years ago?

Matthew Nancekievill 
It's probably the same advice that I'd give myself right now that I still need to take, which is to be a bit more confident in your decisions. I find myself a lot the time, being just a bit indecisive. Do I do this? Do I do that? And what I found is no decision I've ever made have I completely regretted. I've always learned from an experience and progressed. So I was just being a bit more confident in.

I felt like I wanted to do that, but I wasn't quite sure. I felt like I was reaching it. I felt like it was a bit out of my comfort zone. Just do it. Just give it a go and see what happens. Apply for that PhD that you weren't expecting to get. Enter that competition that you ended up winning for this to set up a startup company. It's not just go for it. Just be a bit more confident in yourself.

John 
Mm-hmm. And that's quite interesting. So it's taking the opportunities as they come and trusting that one way or the other things are are going to work out. But tied into that as well is how how do you define a vision? I I don't yeah, how do you define a vision from where you are to where you want to to get to? And when does that vision need to change?

Matthew Nancekievill 
that is, I don't know, I think you can make a lot of money if you can figure out how to answer that properly.

John 
Okay.

Matthew Nancekievill 
I'd say my vision changes daily. And it does get tied in a lot with the company because a lot of options with startups are to grow it massively and then sell out or be acquired or it becomes a lifestyle business where you get to a size that you're happy with and then you stay consistent. I think I've met enough people where their visions have changed wildly and they're still enjoying everything that I don't think you necessarily need to have on set in stone. I think there are good things about visions in that it gives you some motivation, it gives you some clarity, it gives you a direction. But I'd kind of argue that it's a direction for today. That's where you want to go today. That might be different tomorrow. Something might happen, whether it's in your personal life or in your work life where you go, actually, I'm just going to change the direction of this a little bit. And that's totally fine.

John 
Mm.

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Nancekievill 
I tend to work on the hear and now with a loose idea of what it's going to be in 12 months and barely a shadow of an idea for five years. That's kind how I approach it and how I see it.

John 
Yeah, and and that approach makes you enables emerging strategy to also maybe to change direction because the landscape changes quite fast these days these days.

Matthew Nancekievill 
Yeah, and especially in startup world, one of the really good things about them is they're agile. How they compete with some big corporates and big companies is that they can do things quicker than them and they can react quicker. And in all these business books, you'll see a lot around pivoting, right? But

John 
Yeah.

Matthew Nancekievill 
I was going to do this challenge and this is the problem I was solving. I'll hang on a second. It doesn't quite work like that. We need to change it. So yeah, think having that mentality is really, useful.

John
And then how how do you balance because as a startup cash flow is key? So how do you balance

Matthew Nancekievill 
Yeah.

John 
the stress of where's the next cash going to come from versus you mentioned about your I mean your your team, you know, having to pay mortgages, have kids and everything. How do you balance that stress, shall we say?

Matthew Nancekievill 
Again, I wish I had a really good answer for this, but you just try hard and you try not to take things personally when they don't work and then you try and celebrate the successes when they do. I'm fortunate enough that Ice Nine's been going in one shape or another now for about eight years. I've been full time for three and I can now remember times where go, I'm not sure, but then I'm still here. It did work out for the best and I was able to get over that, you know, I guess nervous moment.

So it's, I am now in a fortunate position where I have a bit of evidence to go, making the right decisions and things are going in the right way because I'm still here. So that helps when I think about balancing. I think before when I didn't have that body of evidence, it would be doing things like making sure, is that work life balance again? I play hockey at the weekends. I like a bit of golf. I like watching football. Just something that takes your mind off of it and realising then that you do have a team around you. So we talked mentors earlier. You can talk to mentors, see how they feel, give some advice, give some feedback. When you start building a team, they're taking some of the onus as well, Because they have to deliver on projects for that product to be successful, for you to get follow-on funding. So it's not just on you anymore. So I think all of that is a bit of a fluffy answer, but hopefully it gives you a feel for how I approach it.

John 
yeah. And and sorry, from the operational perspective, you know, when it comes to cash flow, do you do the bus do you ask the business or the clients money beforehand

Matthew Nancekievill 
Depends on the client, so I'd love all the money upfront. But it tends not to happen.

John 
Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Nancekievill 
We've been fortunate with some of the contracts. We've got maybe a 12-month contract and we get paid monthly in arrears. That's quite a common one. And some of the others where they're more publicly funded clients, we've been able to negotiate a couple of times a little bit of money upfront, a little bit in the middle, and then kind of a bigger payment at the end.

it's all a bit different. We just try and get enough contracts going that they all pay for each other eventually and

John 
No.

Matthew Nancekievill 
just to try and iron out some of those bumps. But a lot of it is monthly or quarterly in a way or half and half, half up front, half on delivery.

John 
that's that's brilliant. So then what will you say is a is a small change that has improved your productivity or or and well being?

Matthew Nancekievill
Ironically, it's probably working less hours. So I

John 
Okay, that's very

Matthew Nancekievill 
made a very big decision. Well, I thought it was a big decision. It was more that I was being very purposeful about it, that I wasn't going to be one of these founders that work 60 to 80 hours a week. And in my head, I justified that by going, if I'm working that many hours, I'm either not charging enough money because to hire somebody else to help me or I can't charge enough money.

And so there isn't a market here. So I need to go and look and do something different because this doesn't quite work. I've obviously pulled 60, 80 hour work weeks. You just kind of have to occasionally. But when it becomes the norm, you just get burnt out. And the number of times I've stayed late at night trying to work out how to solve a problem and then just going home upset because I haven't been able to. And then I'm eating breakfast the morning after and I go.

That's exactly, I know how to solve it. That's, you know, and it takes me two minutes. If I'd just gone home, I wouldn't have wasted two to three hours. I wouldn't have broken something trying to fix something else. And I'd have figured it out over breakfast the next day. So I think that's been quite a big one for me. I'm not going to sit here and lie and say I never work weekends or, you know, I always work 40 hours. I tend to work more, but it's, I've made a real concerted effort to keep it reasonable and small.

I will go through fluctuations as well. So when we have a quieter time, I'll try and have a quieter time. And when we have a busier time, eventually I just have to do a bit. But that's how I approach it, is try not to work too much and burn myself out.

John 
Hmm, and that and that's quite interesting because sometimes when you take a step back from from the problem, you get insight. And it's quite interesting what you said there about you know that taking a step back, I mean, I found exactly what you said. When you're trying to do something, you keep trying to heat heat and then you make a mistake and you're like, come on and then the following morning or you know you do something else, then something happens, your your brain is released from the idea and then the the light bulb moment comes comes in. So getting that balance is quite important and and then based upon that what would you say about you know the the the culture the start of culture that says you have to work sixty you have to work eighty hours you know wha what what would you say about that?

Matthew Nancekievill
Yeah, so our LinkedIn influencers, TikTok and Instagram, yeah, full of people telling you about this hustle culture

John
Okay.

Matthew Nancekievill 
and Jeff Bezos did this, Elon Musk did that, Bill Gates did this, whoever it is. the irony here is I'm going to give an opinion, which is essentially don't listen to anyone's opinion. it's that worked for them. It might not work for you. Trying to compare yourself to a few people in this world that make billions of pounds and recently trillions, right? But it's, I don't think that's the right way to approach it. I think you work out what your skill set is, what you're good at, you do that. And it's maybe worth noting that I've not met a founder that's exactly the same as me. It's not like all founders are built the same. I've met founders of every single kind of background imaginable and they've all been successful. You don't need to be a certain way to get to the end. There is not one direction. At least that's my opinion, which just adds to the opinions of everybody else's opinions.

John  
Of course.

So from all these f founders, what would it be if you could distill one should I say characteristic or skill or wisdom from from that, what will it be?

Matthew Nancekievill  
I think it's a mixture of adaptability and stickability.

John 
Yeah.

Matthew Nancekievill 
Which is weird because quite often you would associate stickability with stubbornness and always trying to do it the same way. I mean it more in this kind of perseverance. If it doesn't work, you'll find another way to do it and it's worth keeping going. But this is the only way I'm going to approach it.

So because you need to be able to take hits, though that contract will fall through or somebody's late paying or somebody didn't like your idea that you thought was the best idea since sliced bread and you're going to have to adapt, you're to have to change. And so, yeah, that's where I think that's how I distill it, probably adaptability and stickability.

John 
Right, so we're nearing the end and we have a tradition on the human stories behind the podcast where we ask quick fire questions. So quickfire, what book will you recommend outside your field?

Matthew Nancekievill 
Assuming it's you recounting outside my field Hail Mary by Project Hail Mary by Andy Way. Obviously there's a movie that's been out recently but I read it a few years ago. Fantastic book.

John 
How do you compare that w with the Martian

Matthew Nancekievill 
I mean Martian was great as well. I've actually not read the Martian book, but

John 
Really?

Matthew Nancekievill 
no, it's been on my list for a while, but this is it. read stupid business books now. But

John 
Ha ha ha.

Matthew Nancekievill
it's that, Project Hail Mary fantastic book. And I think the world needs a bit of optimism right now. And that's like a really good, optimistic book.

John 
Yeah,

yeah, that's brilliant. Okay, so most overrated academic habit. Coffee. That seems to be a common theme in our in our place. You don't like coffee, but you have you have to drink coffee.

Matthew Nancekievill 
coffee. don't like coffee.

John 
Yeah, yeah. Okay, brilliant. Best purchase is under 100 pound.

Matthew Nancekievill 
This is a tough one and it might just be because it's sat right in front of me at the moment, but I have this little pouch that I put in my backpack which holds all my leads and USB-C adapters and this and that. means that I'm not just fishing through my bag for all these, whenever I go on events and presentations. So yeah, a little tech pouch.

John 
Nice. that's something I have to get. Right, pastime that relieves stress and gets you back into the zone.

Matthew Nancekievill 
I almost said golf, actually that probably increases stress. Hockey

John 
Yeah.

Matthew Nancekievill
releases stress. I run around and hit a ball quite hard.

John 
Okay, so you you vent all your frustration with a small piece of ball.

Matthew Nancekievill (36:39)
Exactly,

yeah. Watch out Division 5, North West, men's hockey.

John 
But why not golf? Why is golf mo more stressful?

Matthew Nancekievill (
When you get a good round, it's the most stressful even thing in the world, but you never get a good round, you're never happy. At the end of it, you go, I could have hit that shot better, I could have done that better. But yeah, it's brilliant when you have a good hold. yeah, it's also annoying.

John 
Brilliant.

Right. and to round off, what will you say is one advice that you give early career researchers who are thinking of going the route you've gone?

Matthew Nancekievill 
Reach out to people around you and talk to them about their experiences and just see if that's something that you're interested in. People are more than happy to give up their time in this sort of area and they will not take any sort of offence or weirdness out of you just asking about it. So I'd probably recommend ask the people around you that have done it.

John 
Thank you very much Matthew. It's been a pleasure

Matthew Nancekievill 
never is.

John
having you on the human stories are behind the robots. And thank you very much. Take care.

Matthew Nancekievill 
Thank you very much for having me. Cheers, thanks.

John 

One thing I kept coming back throughout this conversation with Matthew is that he never presents himself as having all the answers. Instead, he shows us that confidence isn't something you begin with. It's something you build through experience, through making decisions, learning from mistakes, whilst still continuing to move forward. Perhaps this is one of the biggest lessons from this episode.

Whether you're considering a startup, staying in academia, moving into industry, or simply wondering what next, there probably isn't a perfect roadmap waiting for you. However, there are many opportunities to learn, adapt, and keep moving forward. If today's conversation has encouraged you to think differently about your own journey, then it's done exactly what we hope these conversations achieve.

Thank you for listening to the human stories behind the robots. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave us a review and most importantly, share it with someone who might be asking themselves those same career questions today. Until next time, take good care.