Project Sekai
An exploration of the ever-evolving question: what does it mean to live a meaningful life?
Project Sekai
Della Duncan on right livelihood & finding your purpose
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WAYFINDING series
How can we live in a way that is both aligned in what matters most to us and is responsive to what is needed in the world today?
Della Duncan, renegade economist, eco-spiritual educator, and host of the Upstream podcast, has spent her life exploring this question. Her path has taken her from conventional economics to Schumacher College, the teachings of Joanna Macy and the Work That Reconnects, and ultimately toward a vision of economics anchored in right livelihood, a topic that she helps people explore in her role as a Right Livelihood Coach.
In this conversation, Della shares her own wayfinding journey and what it means to orient a life around ecological values. We explore the pillars of the Great Turning, the idea of a “livelihood garden,” and Frederick Buechner’s invitation to look for where “the world’s great hunger and your great gladness meet.” We ask what nature might teach us about who we are, what it means to cultivate a livelihood that nourishes rather than depletes, and how we can listen for the work that is ours to do.
Links:
Schumacher College - holistic, ecological, transformative and transdisciplinary education
Joanna Macy's Work that Reconnects - a form of group work designed to foster the desire and ability to take part in the healing of our world
Naropa University - Buddhist-inspired contemplative education
Spirit Rock - Buddhist meditation retreat center in California
Music by Sunsette - check it out!
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WillCall - bring your story to life
Lotus Compass - travel inward
Welcome to Project Sakai, a podcast exploring the ever-evolving question: what does it mean to live a meaningful life? Y'all ready for this? Let's go.
SPEAKER_04Hey everyone, Sam Shimizu Jones here. So excited to have you back to the Sakai Projects podcast. In today's episode, we are talking with Della Duncan, and I am so excited to share this conversation with you all because we just covered so many different elements of what it means to find one's path. And really around this theme of wayfinding for this first season, I think Della was a perfect person to speak with. We covered everything from her uh long history of studying economics and many forms of economics. Uh we get into where that word really comes from and its meaning, and then dive into many other elements uh like the Livelihood Garden and her work with uh Joanna Macy's work that reconnects. And it was really just an inspiring conversation to take a step back and really assess you know what is most meaningful in my life and in one's life, and how do you actually go about moving forward with that? So let's get right into it. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me, Della. It's I'm excited to to meet you in person and and to have this conversation with you.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for inviting me.
SPEAKER_04I'm sure you can hear the birds and the river behind us, but we're sitting out on Dela's porch and the Santa Cruz Mountains. And um yeah, I just I wanted to start off. You know, the theme of this this year, this season is all around wayfinding. And I'm curious for you if wayfinding the theme or just the concept as a whole has ever come up in your life, or if there's been something that's yeah, when you think of that, that comes to mind.
SPEAKER_01So I went to a college called Schumacher College that was founded by a former Jain monk, Satish Kumar. And when we were leaving, he said, I don't want any of you to get a job. I want you to cultivate right livelihood. And I really took it on as the invitation. So I really see wayfinding as cultivating right livelihood. And my experience of it from that moment was something akin to the Dow, where I felt like I was stepping into a river and I was surrendering and I was letting soul or service or universe just like guide me down the river, like a total surrender and a real letting, letting flow where it needed to be and where it felt easeful, and wherever it felt hard or stuck or difficult, letting it go. So definitely a surrender, a letting go, a like following the current and following this real sense of the Tao. That's how way find wayfinding found me through his invitation.
SPEAKER_04Wow. That's uh a powerful message to give a recent graduate of, you know, to to go out and seek that. Was it something through your time in that college that to get to that point, did that have a lot of meaning and and depth to it? Like had you spent the previous four years kind of learning really what that meant and is that you know within my livelihood, like what does that mean like after you know, at that point?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, it was actually Buddhist economics that brought me to that college. Okay. I was I I first found Mick mindfulness. I was in therapy for anxiety and very much personal reasons. And my therapist said, Have you tried mindfulness? And so that's what my first invitation to mindfulness was for self-oriented, you know, anxiety reasons. But it was Joanna Macy who kicked me off the cushion of Mick mindfulness into a path of engaged Buddhism. And I was on a walk with a Buddhist nun in Naropa University in Colorado. And I thought I had an like a totally innovative new thought. I said, What about if we made our economics Buddhist? What about a Buddhist economics? And she turned to me and said, Have you heard of E. F. Schumacher, who wrote a book called Small is Beautiful with a chapter on Buddhist economics from his time in Burma. And I looked up that night EF Schumacher and fortunately found Schumacher College, which was named after him. So it was Buddhist economics that brought me there. And then my time there was a deep exploration of all things alternative economics, especially Buddhist economics and gross national happiness and all of that. So yeah, right livelihood and this invitation was really present throughout, but certainly it was that moment at that end where it was like, as you leave, I don't want you to get a job. I want you to cultivate right livelihood. That was a real, real powerful, yeah, push again, off the cushion, out of the classroom into a path of wayfinding.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, and and especially in in the conversation of economics, probably the opposite of what 90% of the world would think of okay, you study economics, like now you go work, right? You now you go get a job and and support the economy. Uh Buddhism economics then. So this is something that you found your way towards. What is that? What does that does that sh still show up in your life today? Has that, you know, current still continue down that path? Has it have you, you know, been led in other directions since then?
SPEAKER_01Or yeah, I would say that now I'm more of a well, a renegade economist and more into pluralist alternative economics and maybe use the phrase post-capitalist economics because that implies many different schools of thought and practice, including Buddhist economics. So I'd say I've broadened, but Buddhist economics certainly was the starting point. And what Buddhist economics and these alternatives really signify to me are the alternatives to the mainstream neoliberal capitalist thought and practice that really I see and many see as really a root of a lot of the challenges of our time, both social and ecological.
SPEAKER_04Is that just I I'm curious just to take it back really quick. Did you study economics at all prior to finding shoemaker college? Or what how how did you like why economics? Why is this the thing that, you know, whether you know Buddhists are renegade or traditional, or I don't know if traditional is the term, but um yeah, why why economics?
SPEAKER_01So in undergraduate, I did study development economics, actually from a very mainstream perspective at UC Davis. And I even did a research project on how bringing a Walmart into a developing country increases the human development index of that country.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_01I showed that that was statistically significant. So there's so much to unpack there, right? What how do we measure success? Right. In is a Walmart a good thing or not, right? But also what is development? What is a developing country? Why, right? There's so much to unpack there. And really, it was a mathematical statistical analysis. That was what I was doing in this development economics class. There was no questioning of the morality or the assumptions underneath the project. So I was the only alternative in that degree of development economics was one class by a grad student who was teaching economic anthropology. And in that class, he had us watch a film called Ancient Futures by Helena Norberg Hodge, a great documentary about how the mainstream development program brought to Ladakh actually caused so much harm for the people and the ecologies there. And also in that class, we learned about gift economies, the potlatch ceremony, the cooler ring, all these alternatives that are exist around the world and have existed. So that was a taste of the alternative, but really it was a pretty mainstream degree. I then went after grad school, worked at a rape crisis center, worked at like a women's empowerment program, and also worked in higher education. So I kind of went off of economics for a little bit. But what broke my heart at that time, what what the biggest grief that I was feeling then was inequality. Inequality in terms of how much teachers or for me as a rape crisis counselor, how much we were being paid compared with other professions, particularly tech industry in the area, but also homelessness in the area and also the discrepancies within companies and businesses. Like I was just really facing the grief of the inequality of being in Silicon Valley, San Francisco Bay Area. So this question about our economic system and why is it not serving us and the planet was always there. And then it wasn't until I got into Buddhism and also heard this metaphor called the upstream metaphor, which is about going upstream to the root causes, that I asked, not just, you know, why what is it that is causing all these challenges, but that I landed on something about economics is really not serving us and we need to have alternatives.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Wow, that's uh the the Bay Area is such an interesting, especially for the past few decades. Um it's just so in your face, the the extremes of the modern world today. I mean, it's a as is you know a few other big metropolitan areas I can think of. But um and and I'm curious, you know, Joanna Macy is is such a such a wonderful force, and and I'm curious how how she came into your life. And it it seems like was she that sort of initial push into the realm of Buddhism and and finding that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So yeah, I was going through a breakup and wanted to see a doctor, actually wanted medication for anxiety, really. So I wanted a psychiatrist. Fortunately, I met a therapist who couldn't prescribe anything. And again, his answer was have you tried mindfulness? So that's what led me to mindfulness again, very focused on self and alleviating anxiety. That led me to Spirit Rock. Spirit Rock, the first one that I did, was very self-focused and also very beautiful. Mark Coleman, actually. But it was the second retreat at Spirit Rock, which was with Joanna Macy. I didn't know who she was. I had no idea. I just signed up for another retreat that worked with my schedule, happened to be a women's retreat. And I remember going in and my roommate saying, Don't you just love Joanna? Isn't she incredible? And I was like, I don't even know who that is. And for anyone who knows the work that reconnects in Joanna Macy, you'll know that it is anything but typical mindfulness training. Now it is deeply rooted in Buddhism, but it is that and much more, right? And that's why I say she really kicked me off the cushion into a path of engaged engaged Buddhist activism because she made me feel into not just my own pain and grief and anxiety, but tap into the world's pain, grief, and anxiety that was coming through me through the web of life, and to act on behalf of that in addition to what was hurting or touching me as an individual.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Wow, that's I I had a similar spirit rock uh you know, introduction to Buddhism there. And so with within speaking about Joanna Macy, and for those that don't know maybe her teachings and what she's all about, like uh could you just share a bit about what you know I mean it's a little hard. She was doing her work for a very long time, but maybe if you could share a bit about uh her work, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So Joanna Macy uh passed away recently, but she was certainly a beautiful elder and teacher of our time. And I would say she was the root teacher of the work that reconnects, although it had many other influences. And the work that reconnects is really all about reconnecting ourselves in the three divides: the divide within ourselves, the divide between ourselves and one another, and the divide between ourselves and the more than human world. So that we need to really reconnect these three divides. And the work that reconnects are these beautiful practices as well as teachings to enable and encourage that reconnection. And it's so that we can act on behalf of life and so that we can really rise to the occasion of how much we're needed, right? So it also is a way, wayfinding apparatus, right? Tapping into our grief, our deep love, our anger, our hopelessness, and then finding the way to contribute. So there is there are a few central teachings of the work that reconnects. One of them is called The Three Stories of Our Time. And in them, we can see what's happening in the world through three different perspectives. And it's not about which one is true, it's about which one we're choosing to see the world from. So one of the stories of our time is the story of business as usual. So this story is that there's nothing to be concerned about. There's nothing alarming going on. The climate warms and cools. You know, elections or politics goes through cycles of right, left, right, left, and all of that. Or the economy goes through booms and busts. Really, there's nothing to be so concerned with. This is the story we would see in mainstream newspapers. It's also a story, I think, of a sign, open business as usual, or you know, post-COVID desire to return to business as usual, right? And as we're listening to this, maybe you can think about times in your life or times or people in your life that really exhibit this story, right? This business as usual story. It's really the dominant story of the growth industrial society. The second story of our time is the story of the great unraveling. And this is it's called that because systems don't just fall over and die. They unravel. And so this is a story where we acknowledge all the ways that our systems are unraveling. So there's a lot of grief and anger and hopelessness and fear with this story. So this can be the story of our ecological systems unraveling, right? Species going extinct, you know, the climate, uh, climate chaos and disruption, or, you know, what's happening to our pollinators, our soils, our waters, right? We feel a lot of grief with all of that. Also socially unraveling, right? Division, suicide, disease, hatred with one another, war, genocide. Um, you know, so it's all the ways that we can see unraveling happening in in all the ways. The last story of our time is the story of the great turning. Now, the great turning is an acknowledging of the great unraveling. It's actually like a being with the pain and the suffering of the great unraveling, but saying we're choosing to not let that be the last story. We're choosing to continue to turn towards life in every moment, in every way, to show off, show up on behalf of life. Right. So I think about the great turning in moments where we turn towards forgiveness or to connection or to love or belonging when we show up in our communities and we turn towards one another and helping each other out, mutual, mutual aid, solidarity, care. And it's also the biggest systems, too. How are we turning towards, you know, resilience and regenerative economics and you know, all of that? So it's all it's that all of these stories are true, and which are which is the story that we're choosing to see the world from? And so the work that reconnects, another way to see it, is it's an invitation to see yourself as part of the great turning.
SPEAKER_04Wow, I love that. It's a a very uh well-put way of sharing those the those three stories. You had said in your graduation from uh Schumacher College to to dive into that stream and and to see where it talk took you. I was talking with a friend about this of being in that stream and it takes you where it takes you. And that there's a bit of maybe sloth to that, a a bit of laziness to it in a way. Like you just see where it takes you. Like life is going to take me where it's going, and like I don't have control of these things. Which I don't think is the full truth. You know, I I I think you can do that while also being actively engaged in it. I'm curious how that, you know, you've engaged with that stream of of trusting while also discerning what what your path is. Like, has there how's that been for you and has there been anything that's helped you as you've sort of you know, not drifted, but you know, swam through that that current.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I really hear you on that that metaphor of like floating in the river of life can feel very sloth-oriented or just like going with the flow, not very proactive. And a few things come to mind. One of them is, you know, I think about this with emails, right? So if I open my inbox and I just respond to what's there, then I'm I'm hopefully being helpful, right? People are reaching out and asking questions or wanting to connect, and I'm, you know, being of service in some way. But if I do know emails myself, then I'm not doing pro any proactive. I'm not actually like engaging. And so I do actually hold that. There is the reactivity and the receptivity and going where there's invitations and all that. But then there also is that like visioning, dreaming, listening, and then being proactive, writing the email and reaching out or making the invitation or following something up. So, yes, I hear that. And one of the other pieces with this is like with the being in the river and being in flow, is this idea of it not being ego or eye directed. So I remember giving a talk, a dharma talk, actually. James Barr is one of my teachers, he invited me to give a dharma talk and I had written it all out, right? And I basically was giving the talk, reading it. And he said, you know, because he listened later, he said, I could tell you were reading. And he said, What I want you to do next time is contemplate the topic, like think about it, then connect in the moment with the audience, with the group, let all the paper go, let the words go, let your preparation go, and just connect with spirit, with source, however you want to phrase it, and just let it flow. And why I say that is because then in the river metaphor, you're letting kind of universe flow or life flow, like you're going where you're needed. So this is part of wayfinding, is it is a trust in the universe and it is a letting go and being guided, but it's not only reactive and you know, receptive. There is a proactivity too. And I guess why I also use that metaphor too is I do find sometimes people have like happiness is if I do blank, like if I do that project or write that book or whatever. And then some they just can't get there. Like they can't write that book or the project fails or the business goes under. And it's like sometimes you you hit walls, right? And it's like, let it go. Where are you being called? Where is easeful? Right. So it's a both and is what I'm trying to say. It's not just receptive and like permit permission and letting you flow where you're needed and only responding to the emails that you're given, but it's really a letting life flow through you and following those inspirations and following that spark, right? I want to reach out to that person. I want to try that project, I want to do that activity.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's such a uh a wonderful way of viewing it of because there's the um those little things that come in. It's like, oh, I'm going to follow that. I'm going to see where that little child, you know, pass. Takes me. And there's you know, of course there's I think it can be thought of as like a very linear thing, but it's more of a multi-spectrum, you know, river moving in main different directions, but it um yeah, I I love that that way of viewing it. And and so for your own, you know, from that time of graduation, like of not getting a job, I guess, um how has that how has that gone for you? How how is it to, you know, at the end of the day and I and I've learned a little bit about renegade economics and and donut economics and um but I'm by no means a a you know scholar in in the subject, but in terms of how to exist in the world today that is so capitalist driven, and I know of course you know there's many cultures on this planet, but the dominant ones at least are very driven by that. Um how do you find yourself existing within that? You know, how you know the work that you do is is multi-layered as well. And um how has it um progressed for you, I guess, uh on on your your own journey?
SPEAKER_01So in the work that reconnects, there's an activity called callings and resources that happens at the very end where you're invited with a partner to first vision big. Like if nothing were holding you back, if you had all the power available to you in the web of life, what would your service be to life on earth? Like, whoa, big, big picture. Next question, you say in the next year, what do you want to try? Time to get specific, right? And then you get into the how do you get in your own way? How will you self-sabotage? What resources do you have? What resources do you need to acquire? And you go all the way down to what is the one step you will take in this next week, right? In that practice at a retreat with Joanna Macy, I was partnering with Robert Raymond, who's my upstream podcast co-host. And I visioned a sharing out podcast like activity. And he had a similar thing because he's a recording engineer and a musician. And so we both kind of dreamed this thing together in this beautiful activity where you start super big and then you get more and more specific. And at Schumacher College, I got to do a few of my assignments as podcast conversations and documentaries. So I did a few audio documentaries. And so it wasn't even livelihood related. It was how do I explore this material in a way that feels fun and delicious? So fortunately, we got the choice to do artistic expression or written papers. I pretty much never did a written paper. They were all artistic expression. So it started that way, very organic, collaborating with Robert and really from this big picture, dreaming. And so we started the podcast, and the podcast is now over 10 years old, and it has gone through variations of being, you know, totally volunteered, having grant funding, uh, being fiscally sponsored project, having sponsorships to now having the Patreon, right? So that's the journey of that. And that has been such a beautiful way. And I'm, you know, with you and your lovely collaborator. So I know like the power of collaboration on these projects. So that's been one plant in my livelihood garden, a very healthy, flourishing, beautiful plant. And then the way that I see it is that in a in a nature setting or in a garden, diversity builds resilience. So I don't only have that plant, I have a few other things that I do. And they really, as I shared with that wayfinding river metaphor, they've really come about organically. So becoming a right livelihood coach has really come out of being, you know, on this podcast, learning all of the stuff around alternative economics. People have said, okay, this is great, but how do I make sense of this in my own life? And so one-on-one coaching is one way to do that. So I've done that. Consulting again, it's like great, all these ideas, the, you know, worker cooperative or a worker self-directed nonprofit, but how does my business relate to this? So then finding the skills to be a consultant in that area and then teaching about it. So now I have a very, very healthy, vibrant, flourishing livelihood garden that really came about organically and is really diverse in terms of the gifts that each plant gives to me. Um, I also have a healthy compost pile. So just to say that, you know, I don't see the projects that we try and don't succeed, or they, you know, you lose the job, or, you know, you leave the endeavor or the project folds. I don't see that as failures. I see that as serving the compost. And so I have a few of those too. And I'm really happy for those experiences as well. They brought me to the garden that I have now, and they serve the soil. So yeah, I'm I'm right now I'm very proud of a healthy, flourishing garden, although I know that, you know, not everyone has that reality. And so part of my wayfinding and my work right now is helping others to cultivate a regenerative livelihood garden. And and I really feel like that's something I owe to the web of life since I've really received all these gifts in my own garden.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I l I love that livelihood garden. That's wonderful, wonderful way to put it. And as any good permaculture person would know, you know, diversity is key. Gotta, you know, have the things that bring in the pollinators, the things that, you know, bring in the good stuff in the soil. And yeah. And and there's stages to it. There's different ebbs and flows, and what stage of life we're in, what you know, there's there's different times, different things are uh more supportive to us. Between that and and the work that reconnects, um, I feel like nature seems to be coming in in some way. I don't know, i is is the natural world and ecology or any of that, is that within your life as well, or do you just like using metaphors of nature and in in in how you uh relate to things?
SPEAKER_01Or well, I will say that economics to me is deeply connected with nature. I think maybe mainstream economics, people wouldn't make that connection. And there is a whole realm of ecological economics, but for me that's redundant because for me, economics, I really like to return it to the etymology, right? Economics being management of our home, oikosnomos, household management. And as Kate Rayworth would say, 21st century economics is about planetary home management because of how interconnected our, you know, national and global systems are today. And so planetary home managing, when I think about that, it's like, okay, who's responsible for planetary home management? All of us, right? We all contribute to that, not just this small group of economists, right? That's insane. And then I'll also bring in again Satish Kumar, who founded Schumacher College. He once walked into the London School of Economics and said, How can you call yourself a school of economics without a department of ecology? Because ecology, oikos logos, is study of our home. So how can you seek to manage our home, oikosnomos, economics, without studying our home? So I actually see that like my study of nature in permaculture, in the work that reconnects and other eco-spiritual traditions is central to being an economist. It's very important to study our home to be able to know how to manage it.
SPEAKER_04You know, it it feels like such an obvious thing of when you think of economics and what we're talking about when we talk about resources and and you know, where a lot of the money movement is coming from. You know, it started by who had the lumber and who had the access to the salt and who had that, you know, and it was all based around the natural world. I mean, not so long ago, it was really, you know, the people that had those things, you know, that's what they traded with and you know, got, you know, fish to the people on the coast and got timber from the people up in the mountains. And um obviously now we're in a a much larger uh globalized system now where you have shipping lanes and air freight and all this stuff. Um But I I love that it's it's how do we not look at the planet's health and and the planet's well-being in talking about, you know, how these economies are built and and where where are we pulling from? Where you know this stuff doesn't just come from uh you know out of thin air, like it comes from the earth somewhere. At some point, everything, you know, uh it all comes from the earth at one point or time and goes back to it. Um there's a wonderful in another discussion we had, um a person put it as uh what if primitive was that I can't fix it, I can't make it myself, I don't know where it comes from, I've no con you know, it it's just this thing that you know I I can buy, I have to spend money on it. And that sophisticated meant I made it myself, I know how to fix it, and when it's done, it'll just go into the earth and not cause any issues. It's not gonna, you know, cause cancer to someone downstream from me. And that concept's just stuck with me so much of you know, how we can we look at these systems that we've created. And at the same time, I personally at least feel that it's so insurmountable how massive these economies are at this point and how interconnected all these nation states are. And it just gets it makes me feel very, very small. And I wonder if as someone that's sort of steeped in this world of of looking at it, like how do you how do you see the bigger picture and and how one person or a few people together can, you know, make significant change or um yeah, just living within that uncertainty of or or that you know uh enormity of it all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I really hear that, the the smallness of us compared with these global systems and global impact. And one thing that I like to think about in a livelihood garden is complementary plants. And so we have that diversity in terms of income streams, right? Some something we get paid for weekly versus a salary versus kind of one-offs, but you can also have complementary plants in terms of impact. So sometimes people work a lot with people one-on-one, right? And they're like, this is great, and I'm really making a difference in people's lives. It's very deep, but they're they're missing the systemic impact. Like they don't think they're, they don't feel like they're changing the bigger systems. So then I might say, okay, well, how could you, what effort or volunteer activity or even job or project could you do that is at that scale? Or sometimes people are very hyper local, like in their neighborhood or their city, but they want to do something on the global level. Okay, that, you know, or sometimes people are very much in the head and they're very much visioning and policy and they're writing a book, but they're not doing anything with their hands, right? Or they're doing nothing in their local community. They're very much an armchair, you know, revolutionary. And so I'm just saying, you know, if if one is feeling what you're saying, the smallness, then what would a project or endeavor at that scale that you do want to be working at, what plant could that be in your livelihood garden? So for me, I have one project in San Francisco where I'm working on a local donut economics portrait and chapter. But then I have the podcast, which is very much big system. How do we move on beyond capitalism and at this like very much global scale? And so I love that complementary and finding the balancing. We'll never find balance, right, as a static state, but that balancing can be really helpful. And here I also might want to bring in the three areas of the great turning, because I think this also answers your question a little bit. There's the one area of the great turning is the area of holding actions, stopping further harm and suffering from happening. This is like protests, whistleblowing. It can also be research, like documenting what's happening to the soil or to the pollinators, right? Or to people. So that's the holding action, stopping further harm and suffering from happening, or even helping heal or alleviate harm or suffering that has happened. So our therapists, our, you know, truth and reconciliation facilitators or our ecosystem restoration people, right? So there's that world. Then there's the systems designers. This is the secondary of the great turning. This is the designing systems to be more regenerative and life supporting. And this can be hyperlocal in your neighborhood, you know, creating a share shop, like a library of things, or creating a food forest or an edible bus stop, right? But this can also be national, right? How do we have a healthcare system that is more, you know, healthy for people on the planet, right? Or our food systems, right? Et cetera. And then it can also be global, right? How do we shift our global economic systems? How do we reorganize the transfer of wealth instead from the global south to the global north? But a reparations or a debt jubilee for the global south, or, you know, helping with holistic development where it's needed, right? So that's the second area of the great turning, the changing systems or the systems design. And then the third area is the shift in consciousness. So this is the like undercurrent beneath the systems design. This is the educators, the spiritual teachers, the writers, the artists, the parents, right? How are we shifting people's consciousness to be more ecological, to see nature not as something outside of us or even like our backdrop, right? To our self-important realizations and like our consumptive, you know, background, but instead part of our larger self, like our ecological body, right? That real ecological self-shift. So, how do we see that differently? So I just offer those two, if we are feeling really small, to look at how we are contributing now and how else we may also want to contribute in different ways. And we can't do it alone. Like, and I know we all know this, but as Tikanan Han said, the next Buddha will be a Sangha. So it's this idea that, you know, let us network with one another, let us connect. We are certainly not alone in these intentions. So I love this idea of not seeing ourselves as a wave in the ocean that's going to be pummeled by the ocean, but seeing ourselves as a wave of the ocean and like we're all powerful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I love that. I mean, that there is such a the sense of the individual and the sense that, you know, especially within Buddhism, you know, the individual is also the whole. And we are all interconnected. We all are sharing this together. And um and some of it is just going with along with the flow and and you know, is that and then others are yeah, choosing choosing a direction, choosing a path and stepping it, and then knowing it will likely change and evolve into something else. And and within that, you know, this this individual to global perspective and all these different ways we can look at this, you know, I'm curious because your work both as an individual and sort of your journey that you've gone on, um is both to to share this knowledge but th and and to work with individuals and finding their own way, but just in how you talk, it's been so you know unique to the individual, I feel like. Like I I feel like you really see that each of us has a different story that's being told and a different path that we're on. And I'm wondering through your work, like how has that have you practiced with that a lot? Have you, you know, what in what way do you um sit with that and and you know, just the amount of everyone has their own journey that they've been on and how unique that is, but then being able to work with them to find what's true for them or or what feels most alive to them. Uh yeah, I'm I'm curious about that process.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I have a quote that I I often use in helping this wayfinding for an individual, and it really goes to our uniqueness. And the quote is from Frederick Buchner, and the quote is God calls us to the place where the world's deepest hunger meets our deepest gladness. And I bring this up in every first coaching session, and I just find it so helpful for wayfinding. So, first, I ask people, what is it that breaks your heart? Right. And this very much is connected with the work that reconnects and Joanna Macy, really, that our that our pain for the world can be a directionality for our work in the world, right? So the world's deepest hunger as it shows up in you is what breaks your heart. And I love asking people that. And I love getting like really specific and really personal because people could say, Oh, I really care about racism, immigration, LGBT rights, and I'm sure they do. But it's often like, what is really specific to you? You know, whether it's your own personal lived experience in history, or your family's lived experience in history, or your ancestors, or your community, or was there a body of water that was poisoned and you and you grew up going swimming in that water, right? Or a mountaintop that was extracted, right? Or a bird or a tree. You're like, get really, really specific. Because if you deeply, deeply care about something, then you will have the energy and the enthusiasm and the passion to work on that topic or issue. So where is the world's deepest hunger showing up for you? And it's totally unique to each person. So I ask them that. But we don't just stay there. The second question, the second part of that quote, is your deepest gladness. And I just love that. It's like, where is your joy? When do you come alive? When do you step into flow, right? That river feeling. When do you have a sense of just flow and ease and joy and gladness? You know, is it in the morning or the evening? Is it public speaking or is it writing? Is it problem solving? Is it on a team or alone? Is it outdoors, indoors? Like when do you really flow? Right. And then the overlap of those two answers is where the magic happens and where the wayfinding happens. Because then you find something that really brings somebody joy and gladness, but is also really contributing to how the world's hunger is showing up for them. And that truly is very unique. Now, they'll find organizations and movements and comrades to work with, right? That's where that, you know, reconnecting with the web of life or with the with the ocean comes back in. But for each of us to clarify that can be so beautiful. And as Bill Plotkin and the Animus Valley Institute would say, this can also be a way to find our mythopoetic identity, this like ecological niche that each of us have. And to give an example, Bill Plotkins is cocoon weaver because he actually helps people come into nature and weaves them into a cocoon to then have their transformation into whatever comes next. So he's cocoon weaver. So yeah, all of this I find is deeply personal and deeply helpful and also deeply soul connected.
SPEAKER_04I've always wanted it's I've always wanted someone to tell me what my my like name would be within that, but I also feel like it's something that has to be sort of discovered, I'm sure. Have you discovered it? I have not. I have not. But there's so many different ways to look at, you know, what we as individuals connect to, or or we all like to look at, you know, maybe personality tests or these different ways of like, oh yeah, I'm I'm a Leo for sure. Like this is so I'm that kind of person. You know, there's something comforting, I feel like, in knowing that. But I'm curious within the mythopoetic, like if you could share a bit more about that and and yeah, what that um what that can sort of symbolize or or represent for people or maybe help them along along their way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So again, I've learned about this through Bill Plotkin. And if folks want to know more, he's written about it, as well as the Animus Valley Institute, is where they guide journeys to help people find this, but we don't need to go to those to find it because it really is our soul's calling. And as I said, your ecological niche. And it can be a very, as it said, poetic frame. And so sometimes if people don't know it right away, to just go into nature. And ask yourself, like, who am I? Like in nature, what is my ecological niche? And sometimes we can find resonance with nature, such as, you know, oh, I'm a connector, like a spider, like I connect things, or I'm a cross pollinator. I'm sure you've heard someone say, I'm a cross pollinator, right? Or I'm a bridge builder, right? These are like ways of thinking about, you know, what are your gifts? What is your calling? What is your ecological niche? What in what ways do you serve? And do you enjoy serving, right? And then what in nature, who in nature does that job or does that gift? So that could be one playful way to explore it. Um, but yeah, it's a way that it can be deeply personal to you, meaning sometimes you don't even ever share it with anyone, right? It's like you just feel that that's your calling or, you know, your mythopoetic identity. It's very intimate. And then other times, some people, it's the name of their business. It's it's their logo, right? And so, you know, you choose who you're gonna introduce yourself as your mythopoetic identity as, but it can be very playful and fun, but also deeply intimate and personal. Now, a caveat about this is that it also can change. And we have to kind of let it change. This is that Buddhist element coming back in because if we hold fast to like we are that, and then we have an injury or a life-changing experience, or you know, something happens. Like if we hold our identity to that, then that can bring a lot of suffering. So to let it shift as we become a parent or you know, or have again have an injury, something happens in your life, or you get laid off, like you know, to to be reborn again or to reinvent yourself time and time again. So to be playful and to hold it lightly, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, yeah. I just watched uh interesting documentary uh around Jane Goodall, and she's talking about just sitting and observing nature and how entertaining it is. And you mentioned earlier sort of going into the forest, it's it's it is amazing how just slowing down and observing nature, how much happens, and that it's always changing. I think if if ever there was something to learn that it's like, yes, there is that happening, and you know that animal you know will die in X amount of time, or or that nest will fall over, and there's this wanting to like, oh no, I can put the nest back, like it it's all gonna be okay, but the nest has fallen, and and by you going in and doing that, like bird's probably not gonna return to it. Um but there's this this great learning that can happen by by just going into nature and observing and just sitting with that. And yeah, I I I love that mythopoetic view of it all, and and that it does bring a a certain sym you know, symbology to to us as individuals. And that maybe that helps you connect with others and find connection with others. You had brought up those three stories earlier, and I feel like that sort of hope or that that holding on to the positive is is such an important thing, and there is such polarization in today's world. And I'm I'm curious, how do you find that sort of continuing holding on to hope or h holding on to you know that that third that third story, I guess?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I once knew a woman who said that her life motto was better than found. And what she meant by this was that she just wanted to leave everyone and every place better than she found it. So in a conversation, just trying to leave the person that she had a conversation with better than she found them. And my favorite was a public restroom. Like you go into a public restroom, can you leave it better than you found it? And I just love that. And you can even think about it as like an apartment. You rent an apartment, can you leave it better than you found it? So I just love this idea. And so, you know, will we have the success of the great turning in our lifetime? Will we wake up and realize the fully regenerative, you know, as Charles Eisenstein would say, the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible? Like, probably not. And so, can we leave things better than we found them? Yes, I think so. And as also there's this great quote, and I don't know who said it, but where we're given a branch, make a bud, where we're given a bud, make a flower, and we're where we're given a flower, make a fruit. And I love thinking about this in all of our movements, right? Because we are not the first in any of these movements, but we are coming from ancestors and people and beings that have been doing lots of work before us. But can we move it along, right? Can we appreciate and honor them, move it along, and then train and mentor and teach the next people who will then carry it along. So I really just see myself more as like part of lineages and part of like moving movements along and trying to leave things better than found. It's not do I have hope, but am I practicing active hope? And this is another frame from Joanna Macy. But, you know, she really says that hope is not something we have, but something that we do. And it's like practicing hope in dark times is actually a radical act. And we source it where we can find it and we source it through the web of life. I think, like you said, slowing down, going into nature, putting our feet on the earth, like these are ways that we can resource and remember ourselves to the web of life. And I think that's really crucial for practicing active hope in these times and whenever.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I the the concept of lineages and having that, you know, um, really honoring our teachers and those that sort of shown you the way. And do you have lineages that you feel like have you know served you well through the years that you feel most connected to maybe now at this point in your life, both you know, within the Buddhist world and and within you know other lineages?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So you're you're reminding me, Joanna Macy. When I interviewed her, I asked her to introduce herself, and she said she was a Buddhish, an eco-Buddhish philosopher and activist. And I love that. And she made me ad activist, she's not just a philosopher, which was felt really important. But I'm reminded of the phrase from Ramdas where he said, My dad, my parents hate me when I'm Buddhist and love me when I'm Buddhist. And you know, just the embodiment of the practices, right? Rather than being like dogmatic or like proselytizing. And so, you know, I would say I'm Buddhist and have that, but more broadly, I'm I would say I'm part of the eco-spiritual lineage, more broadly. And yeah, I named some of my teachers, right? Joanna Macy, but I'll also add Dr. Havin To from uh Plum Village, so Tik Nathan lineage. Um, but also Ramdas, I would say, is another core teacher through podcasts. Never look met him in person, but heard his voice many, many hours. Um but just to say what I understand as eco-spirituality, just in case this is helpful, is uh this idea that I got from a book called Eco Dharma. And the book in the book, what I learned, it was so powerful. It was like an aha moment. It was that spiritual traditions are unhelpful when they posit cosmic duality and individual salvation, and they're helpful when they posit collective liberation and cosmic unity. Now, let me break that down. And because you can find this in all traditions, seriously, all religions. The unhelpful one is when they posit posit cosmic duality, meaning there's this world and then there's another world, a heaven, an afterlife, escaping the wheel of samsara, right? And what does that duality do? It means this one is not holy. This one is not sacred, this one's not holy, we can trash it, we can exploit it, extract it. It doesn't mean anything. The real gold is the escaping the wheel of samsara, the heaven, the afterlife. Okay. That's cosmic duality because it means that we treat this world like crap and we treat it as if it were not sacred. Then the other one is individual salvation. When we're focused on our own individual salvation, right? This is I use that phrase, mick mindfulness. That's part of individual salvation. I am mindful so that I am a better trader or you know, sharpshooter in the military or you know, free throw basketball player, like using mindfulness for self-gain for very self-interested individual reasons, right? So religions, spiritual traditions are unhelpful to this time ecologically, socially, when they have individual salvation as the goal, and when they have this idea of cosmic duality, all traditions, but they're helpful when, and helpful for liberation, for thriving, for um health and beauty and you know, life and vitality of the more than human world and the web of life, when they have cosmic unity, meaning all of this is sacred. Like this is all sacred and and beautiful and holy, and all my relations, right, from indigenous traditions, right? All of that, and collective liberation, right? The eco-sattva, where it's like my liberation is connected with your liberation, seeing ourselves as interconnected, as interbeing. So when I think of eco-spirituality, I think of that second set of these traditions that are helpful for this time. And again, in all traditions, in Buddhism and Christianity, in Judaism, in Islam, in other traditions as well. It's when we have collective liberation as the goal, and when we have an idea of cosmic unity. So that's how I really identify that term, and I find that very helpful. Um, and then, you know, why any of this, like, because you know, why eco-spirituality and all of this comes back to this metaphor of the upstream, going upstream. So I started my whole journey, my wayfinding journey, going upstream from inequality to the root problems of our time. The first step of that upstream journey was the isms, capitalism, you know, white supremacy, patriarchal supremacy, all of that, like the the power over dynamics, the better than human supremacy over nature, right? All of those. And then going upstream from that is separation from, because we don't have better than or power over unless we have separation from, separate from nature, men separate from women, whites separate from people of color, etc. But then even at like going upstream from that is a very much an idea rooted in who we see ourselves as individuals. And that's why I said that ecological self. It's like, do we see ourselves as rugged individuals, homo economicus, which is the dominant view of who we are as humans in mainstream economics, that we are rational, self-interested beings, only out to seek our own self-interest and to work as little as possible, right? That's who mainstream economics would have us believe we are and would assume that we are, right? So that's the root is this small eye or this ego self. And I didn't make any of this up, by the way. This is all deep spiritual traditions that have taught this and lineages, of course. But then, so the antidote then is the ecological self, is the eco-spiritual self, this reconnection ourselves with the web of life. Like we are nature, we are part of the more than human world. And then from that, we have instead of you know separation from, we have remembering or the work that reconnects. We reconnect with ourselves and our bodies, right? Slowing down, feeling our breath, our rhythms, our cycles, right? We reconnect with one another, seeing connection and interbeing and solidarity and love and neighborliness, brotherliness, right, around the world. And then reconnecting ourselves with the web of life, seeing the more than human world as not a resource for our use and exploitation, but as our kin, right? And then from that we have an entirely different economic system, one that's truly regenerative and ecological and kind and you know, deeply connected and embedded with the more than human world, sophisticated, as you said.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I just wanted to say like that ecological eco-spiritual tradition for me, the reason why that is so important is because that gets to the root of what is wrong with the challenges of our time and how we can shift our consciousness to be able to create the world that is more regenerative, kind, and just yeah.
SPEAKER_04I I love that that view of it of it is the whole coming together and it w without the understanding really and an acknowledgement of it, um, we just continue to move in a direction that separates us from one another and from well, us from our human other and us from our more than human other. How does that spirituality play into then your livelihood garden? As people maybe are are listening to this of, you know, finding their path, finding their journey, you know, going along this way, the different things that you sort of um give time to, you know, how does that spirituality play into your livelihood garden?
SPEAKER_01I would say practicing connection with nature and mindfulness and being in sangha, being in community supports the soil of my garden, which the soil is the metaphor for self-care. If we have a rich, verdant, healthy soil, then we can have our plants grow. So when I'm in community and sangha, spiritual community, or when I'm deep in my practices and I'm feeling connected with myself and with the more than human world, then I'm able to surf. So that's deep, deeply a part of it. But it also helps with orientation. Like when there is a project or an endeavor or a framing, like, is it in alignment with eco-spirituality, right? Is it in alignment with this isolated, separate sense of self, this homoeconomicus, competition, division, alienation, or is it connected with this more connected sense of self, this more ecological self? So that's an undercurrent through everything that I do. Um, it may not be explicit. And then the other piece is if we have this upstream journey, a lot of the more tangible work that I do is that like you've gone upstream, you've had that transition, and now we're back downstream. So, like doing consulting for a worker cooperative or doing a donut economics project in my local community, those are manifestations of a worldview that has shifted from the separate sense of self to the ecological sense of self. They are entirely different in their like operating values, in their assumptions about who we are as humans and what the wor more than human world is, and our values.
SPEAKER_04And to that, I'm I'm curious just in in talking about all the various things that you do. I mean, I I just love how I'm someone that's always had many different uh dishes going at the same time. Um donut economics, you mentioned you've mentioned this. I'm I'm curious if you could just share a bit more about that. I mean, we've talked about your sort of your path within economics and and your education, but what is what what is donut economics and uh is that sort of a piece of your livelihood garden today?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And yeah, it's interesting. It it also connects with Buddhism, although that might not be clear to everyone. I'm gonna connect it. There's a great proverb in Buddhism that is the most important thing is to know what is the most important thing. The most important thing is to know what is the most important thing. And I often also ask this in coaching sessions, right? Livelihood coaching sessions, what is most important to you right now? And just it helps people just cut through all of the shoulds and the musts and all that stuff, just what is most important in your life right now, right? And I love asking myself this and reflecting on it. And I love in one element of being a renegade economist is rethinking our metrics, right? How do you define success? How do you define true wealth? How do you define a good day? How do you define a thriving livelihood? Is it just how much money you make? No. Money is important, you know, and it does help us meet our needs, but it's not the only thing that's important to us, right? So I love asking people, what are your metrics and what are the metrics you want to unlearn and compost from mainstream economics and what are the ones you want to bring on, right? And asking someone what is most important to you right now helps get to those metrics. Now that's at the individual level. But I'm gonna zoom out here because then we can go to the business or organizational level. You can ask the same thing. And right now, the capitalist and growth-oriented mindset is only about how much money is your business making and has it grown since last year, right? And will it grow infinitely? But that's not the only things that are important to us, not from an ecological spiritual mindset, right? What is our contribution? How many people have we touched? What systems change have we affected, right? How many ecosystems have we supported? So then we could look at it at that level. And then we can look at it at the collective level. And this is where donut economics comes in. So donut economics is post-growth and post-capitalist because it gets at one of the highest leverage points there is to systems change, the leverage point of changing the goal of the system. So right now at our economic systems, whether it's the local, national, or global level, the goal is blind growth of GDP. Well, it's either business, so it's, you know, income or profit. At the national level, it's GDP, and at the global level, it's GDP. That's the indicator of success. Has GDP, gross domestic product, risen, right? That's the indicator of success. And of course, we live in a world where we're recognizing the limits to growth. We've already known this, but it's really evident that we cannot have our economies grow forever, and that growing our economies does not mean that we're meeting our needs. In fact, we know so many people are not meeting their needs, right? And actually, meeting some needs is at the expense of others meeting their needs. So it's very complex. So changing the goal in donut economics is changing the goal to what if the goal of the economy was meeting human needs while staying within consideration of the needs of our ecosystems. And so in the inner part of the donut, you imagine a donut hole is the human needs. So let's take Santa Cruz, which is the nearest city to where we are right now. Imagine we can we can measure how many people in Santa Cruz have adequate food, water, shelter, income, you know, political uh opportunities, etc., energy needs. So we have that in the inner part and we can shade that in. So if everyone's need were met in Santa Cruz, then we'd have that completely filled out. Okay. We'd have met the social foundation. But that's not enough to think about our human needs. We are embedded in ecosystems. We are part of the web of life. So we also think about the outer part of the donut is the ecological boundaries. So our planet, our ecosystems can sustain some pressures, some changes, but if they go beyond certain limits, they can go into tipping points and be very harmful for the more than human world. So we got to think about keeping our economies within certain limits. So then the donut part, and you can imagine some sprinkles or whatever your favorite flavor is, is the safe and just space for humanity. And the goal of a donut economy is to get us within the donut where all needs are met, but we're staying within the needs of our ecosystems. Kate Rayworth, the founder of Donut Economics, would say there is no developed country. There's no place that has met their human needs and staying within their needs of their planet. And even just shifting this, right? First of all, it's an idea a lot of people can get behind. It's it's a very universalizing, like collaborative approach. And it also is appreciative of all the work that's being done in all these areas. But it really orients us to a new goal that we can really think about together. And getting us getting all of our economies at all scales within the donut is is a goal for our time.
SPEAKER_04I love that. It it's it's amazing because I I feel like this lesson's been learned by different civilizations. I feel like there's and I know there's cultures that live to learn within their the means. And it it maybe it was easier at a time because you you couldn't necessarily ship things in and have all this interconnection. But it it makes me think of the Monterey Bay which we're we're so close to of it was completely depleted. And through the work in one generation maybe two generations, it's thriving again. You know, we we went from a a ecosystem that's just so devastated to one that has orcas coming back, you know, the top predator of an ecosystem, showing that there's life in abundance there. And it is such an interesting concept to bring how how do you have enough and also have that buffer zone of sustenance and and stability for the entire system at large. Um and that everything fits nicely together. I I really like that that uh metaphor. I'm curious with that within all we've talked about, I don't I don't know which one to pick on, but we we always try and come back down to the individual level and just within the work that you do and and whichever path you want to share on, but if there are sort of today what people and you've always shared some, but what people can sort of bring into their lives today in terms of maybe if they're interested in some of the things you've talked about or just want to touch into it, you know, we we've talked about stepping out into the woods and and taking that moment, but if there's anything that um yeah, just is exciting for you right now that you you want to spread the word on that you would love to encourage people to maybe um more you know directly able to go and practice or try out or or be curious of um yeah, if there's something for you that's most live right now.
SPEAKER_01Well, two things that are coming up for me based on what you just shared about the Monterey Bay, you're reminding me that we as humans have a footprint, an ecological footprint, but we also have an ecological handprint. And so we can be contributing members to this time and we can support each other's flourishing and the more than human world flourishing. So I just thank you for reminding me of that and reminding us of that, that we can have a contribution to this time. And then you also brought up the word enough. And I think this is this is a really important concept right now: gratitude, enoughness, and contentment. Now, not everyone is at enough. So I want to acknowledge that. And actually, we need a lot of redistribution, reparations, and you know, all of that. We need to change our economies to get a lot of people to having enough. But even to just appreciate or recognize that there can be enough, right? And that we can reach enough. And then once we've reached enough, when I mean that I say financial capital or money, that there are other ways we want to grow and develop, right? So I invite people to think about what they're grateful for in their economy or their livelihood gardens and then where they have enoughness. And maybe if they don't have enoughness, where they might want to tend to their garden to be able to create that enoughness. So there's that. But in general, I'd say my invitations are, you know, define your own metrics. I love that practice. Yeah. What is a good day? What is most important to you right now? What is a good life? What is a flourishing garden? And what are the metrics you want to unlearn, you know, or compost? I really love that. If you find this metaphor of the garden helpful, to draw it, you know, or depict it. What are the plants in your garden right now? What are the ways that you serve? I didn't mention this, but your plants in your garden are not only the ways that you serve that bear financial fruit, but it can be volunteer activities, care work, art making, you know, and other activities. So being a parent can be a plant in your garden. So just appreciating all the ways we contribute to this time, that they're all a part of your right livelihood path, right? I think that's important. Appreciating our compost piles and nourishing our soils so that we can continue to serve. And then, yeah, connecting with eco-spirituality in whatever way that means for you. If you want to check out the work that reconnects, it's open source and available. Um, but even within people's own lineages, can you find the eco-spiritual traditions, that helpful expression of your spirituality where it makes this? That that can be a beautiful experience for people. But I would say, like, if nothing else, like I really, you said what's alive for me. I love this word remember, right? To remember ourselves to the web of life, remember ourselves to one another, remember ourselves to our bodies. So if I would invite nothing else, it would just be try on this word remembering and try to walk through the day as if you were remembering yourself to the web of life in the more than human world.
SPEAKER_04And I love the concept of acknowledging what it is in your life and really, you know, maybe in a physical way, drawing or whatever it might be of bringing that in. I do just as a bonus question, because it it's come to mind, the sort of growing of it all, you know, I feel like there's also an unlearning that's necessary. That there's there's so much that we see as what is normal and what this is how it is. Like how I deem success is is definitely rooted in, you know, do you know the median income of the Bay Area is six feet, you know, you're not gonna be able to buy a house if you're not and it's you know, that's the striving for is that and and granted I've a long time uh been working with that and and have my own ways, but as a society, as individual, as as just people, like that met that process of unlearning as well to let those other things flourish. I mean, yeah, I'm I'm curious if that has come up in your work and and if you know of that acknowledging the beauty and and ha allowing the compost, but are there some things that you have to you know weed out of there and and pull out or an uproot even? Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if I were to have a project right now, my tagline would be unlearn, remember, and rewild. Those three words just like really roll around in my brain a lot. And so it's uh yes, I really resonate with that. And the tagline of the upstream podcast is unlearn everything you thought you knew about economics. So unlearn. Yeah. And when I teach economics, one of the main things I do as a renegade economist is what do we need to unlearn? Because some people have studied mainstream economics and others haven't, but they've read the newspaper or they've just been in, you know, culture that is swimming in mainstream economics. So there's so much to unlearn. So yeah, I really, really resonate with with that. And if I were to just share one unlearning, because I think it's it's coming up right now, is in mainstream economics, there's this idea that we as humans cannot collectively co-manage nature. It's called the tragedy of the commons. And it's taught to us as if it were fact that we as humans cannot collectively caretake water, land, a forest, you know, plains, etc. Now, what does this mean? This means, therefore, it must be privatized. It must be commodified. We must put fences on it, et cetera. Right? It must be privately owned. Now, what I learned going back to that one economic anthropology class way long ago was actually that this was debunked. This was debunked by Eleanor Ostrom, the first woman to win a Nobel Peace Prize in economics. And she found that actually there are communities all around the world for many generations who have been collectively caretaking the world and and and thriving. And thriving. Exactly. And this is what something you said reminded me of this. So it's like, and many are indigenous communities. And you just mentioned the Monterey Bay. There's also the lobster fishermen of Maine. That's another example. So yeah, if just to end with one unlearning is that, you know, like I said, we as humans have our ecological footprint, but also our ecological handprint. But that we as humans could can be homoeconomicists. We we do have that capacity to be ego-centered, rational, self-interested beings, out for only what benefits us. But we also have the capacity to be kind, compassionate, collaborating, and to collectively caretake the more than human world and our communities. So, yeah, if nothing else, that gives me hope.
SPEAKER_04I love that. Thank you so much for taking the time, Della.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me. Music brought to you by Sunset. Check for more songs in the link in the description. I'm Jamie Shimizu Jones, the producer, and your host is Sam Shimizu Jones. This episode was brought to you by Lotus Compass and Will Call. To find more stories like this one, check us out at ProjectSakai.org. That's Project Sakai S E K A I dot org.