The Fatherhood Effect

What does it really mean to be a present, intentional father in today's world? In this special Father's Day episode of See Through, hosts Dev and Roger get raw and honest about the realities of modern fatherhood — at two completely different stages of the journey.

Roger opens up about raising teenagers, the wake-up call that made him reprioritize family over career, and the conscious decision to become a more emotionally available dad. Dev, just 18 months into fatherhood, shares why nothing could have prepared him for how profoundly life-changing becoming a parent truly is.

Together, they tackle one of parenting's biggest debates: nature vs. nurture. Can you really shape who your child becomes, or are you simply nurturing what's already there? They explore why forcing kids into a mould that doesn't fit them so often backfires — and what happens when you trust the process and let children discover their own passions organically.

This episode also unpacks:

• The real difference between obligation and commitment as a father
• Why owning your mistakes in front of your kids builds deeper trust
• How to create a home that feels like a sanctuary — and why it might be the most important thing a parent can do
• What active fatherhood actually looks like in a world that has changed dramatically from the one we grew up in

Whether you're a new dad, a seasoned father, a father figure, or simply passionate about parenting, child development, and family relationships — this conversation will hit home.

Follow us @seethroughpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to See Through. If this is your first time listening, this is the show where we help look through a different perspective every single week on a topic that's on our minds.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

And thanks for joining us on this journey. We're just two random guys who don't have it all figured out, but we're definitely going to try with you with us.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

I'm Dev. And I'm Roger. And we're really excited to get into today's episode. It's been a topic that's been on our minds. So we hope you enjoy. Let's do this. Happy Father's Day, Roger.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Happy Father's Day, Dev.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Thank you. And uh for all of those of you listening, happy Father's Day if you are a father or if you're a father figure to someone, happy Father's Day to you. I hope you get a chance to hopefully spend the day uh taking care of yourself and being around those that matter most. Um we're excited about today's episode. Uh, we're gonna center it around Father's Day, and so we thought it'd be a cool episode to kind of talk about our journeys as fathers so far, which have been vastly different, which we're gonna get into and talk a little bit about nature versus nurture and kind of our take on that, because I think that's also evolved a lot in our opinions as the world has changed and as the world has evolved. And we're really excited to get into it today.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, I think also, you know, father figures that that terminology has been thrown around a lot as well. Um, does it make a significant impact on who you are when you become a father? Do you play off some of the things you've learned or watch somebody else do? Or is it all just self-taught as you make mistakes and evolve in your own fatherhood in itself? Before we kick in, I did want to share a little bit of humor and sort of something I found online. And it was the contrast or comparison of Father's Day to Mother's Day and where they both kind of rank in all the different holidays that are out there. Um, apparently, Mother's Day ranks typically number two to number five spot. And Father's Day can typically land somewhere as high as number seven, some say, but as low as number 20th, others say. So I'll leave that out there and I'll let you all sort of decide where you where you feel that those numbers land.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Moms do rock. Anyways, we'll see you right after the break. Well, Roger, I thought maybe we could kick our conversation off today talking about just what it's been like so far becoming a dad for both of us. And uh maybe you could start by sharing a little bit about your journey so far as a dad, how long you've been a dad, and kind of what your experience has been like and and what that's journey been like so far for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah, it's um wow. To go back to the birth of the children, it it was just earth-shattering, it was emotional, it was just probably the best days of my life, right? Watching the birth of both Arjun and Spira. Um for me, fatherhood, I had a pretty active dad in my life, and I always knew when I was young that I always wanted kids. Whether or not that was going to transpire was you know in the cards. Um, and and it played out the way it did. But when those two came into my life, it did, it fundamentally changed everything about who I was, who I wanted to be, what I found important in my life, the things that drove me, the passions, all of that 180. Some of it was already naturally aligned in who I was and and sort of my character, but a lot of things, yeah, it grounded me in a way that I didn't think was gonna be possible. The unconditional love from the moment you hold your child for the first time to watching them breathe. They were in the incubator, right, when they're first born. And so um, yeah, I was just I was an emotional wreck to be honest. Really? Yeah, I was. I was so happy.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Of course, yeah, euphoric.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, euphoric.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

And like you know, kids' mom and I, we didn't want to know the sex of the children.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So we learned the sex of the children as the children were were born. So um, you know, my my son was born first and my beautiful daughter was born second.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

And how old are they, just for the listeners?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, Arjun is 13, Safira is almost 12, going on 35.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

All right, so there you go. Uh, you've got a teenager at home.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

And what would you say so far has been kind of your proudest moment as a dad, and kind of what have like if you had to think back to a couple of moments where you felt really good as being a dad and something that really resonated with you, or you felt like you really showed up the way you envisioned showing up? Because I think I'm not as experienced of a dad as you. I've only been a dad now for a year and a half, which I'll get into a little bit later. Yeah. But, you know, there's all these thoughts that I have of the kind of dad that I want to be in the future as my kid gets older, uh, versus, you know, obviously the reality of the situation, because the world is also gonna be the world and things are gonna play out the way things are gonna play out. And so, how about how's that played out for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Quite amazingly. Um, there's been key moments, defining moments in my fatherhood to watch my children become who they are becoming and the influence both their mom and I have had on their lives. One of the biggest profound moments, other than you know, childbirth and first steps and all that kind of stuff. Of course, those are all groundbreaking and those are proud moments, was when um Safira went to kindergarten and Arjun was already one year in. Right. So he was an SK, she was going into JK.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

And they were going to the same school.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

They're going to the same school.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

And I remember dropping them off with their mom, and we're just looking at the two of them, and Sophia was nervous, and Arjun's like, I I've already done this. I've got I'll show you how to do this, and I'll take you into the school ground. And so then, as we watched them walk in, he was holding her hand, and one of his hands was behind her back, and he was walking her into the playground. That's awesome. Like it was just a moment of big brother taking care of his little sister, and they were just little people, tiny, tiny little people. And we didn't set them up, we didn't say, Argent, you gotta take care of it. Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

No, that was just all instinct.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

It's just who he is. He's a very empathetic human. He loves to take care and engage. And yeah, he was a big brother in that moment. That's so cool. I I would say what that was one of the profound moments for me to see the two of them sort of going off to school and leaving the nest, if you will. Yeah, it was an emotional day for um for the two of us, being their parents, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, no, that is, I can only imagine. I mean, my journey as a dad uh started about a year and a half ago. My partner and I, my wife and I, um, we have a son, his name is Avian, and he is um the light of our lives. He has completely changed every fiber of our being. And it's really interesting. I'm somebody that in any other life situation, whether it be going to university or any other big change in life, like getting married, I've felt like most of the time when I read or try to learn from others that have gone through that same step, they've been able to really explain it to me in a way that I could kind of understand it even before I make that big life change. And I have to tell you, becoming a parent has, in no word of a lie, been so unexplainable. Like when I think back to everything people have told me about becoming a parent, and I relate to now becoming a parent, it's like I don't think there's any words you can really use to articulate to somebody how big of a change that does to your like brain chemistry and like your outlooks on everything and how you feel about things. And so, no, it's been it's been a really wonderful journey. I know a lot of people in my social circles that honestly don't even want to have kids because of the environmental climate that we're in or the political climate or even financial reasons, which I think are all really valid. But I have to say, becoming a dad has been by far the most incredible, hard, frustrating, rewarding, like unbelievably like just the best feeling experience that I've ever had in anything that I've ever done. And I can't imagine doing it again, like having a second kid or a third. Like when I think to when I look at some of the families that I grew up with and thinking they had three kids, four kids, five, it's it's wild to think of like I already know how I feel about one. I can't imagine like physically feeling this intense about like more than just one person. And so no, it's been it's been quite an amazing experience so far. Now, in terms of like fatherhood, what's kind of your take on what's kind of your vision of the kind of dad that you want to be? And how did you kind of come to that kind of perspective? And and you know, the world that we live in, I think dads have evolved a lot. And I know we've talked about that and how when you think of traditional dads, you know, in the you know, early 60s, 70s, 80s and what they represented versus I would say like the modern dad, the millennial dad, the the gen, the gen, the gen X dad, and kind of how that's really evolved. I think it's changed fundamentally. And so, kind of what's your perspective on how you approach fatherhood?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, that's a really good topic. I think active dads, that's a big topic, right? And you and I talked a little bit about the evolution of fatherhood and where dads are today versus maybe what we experienced growing up, especially for me, because I'm a Gen Xer.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

My my dad, he he was um a sawmill worker, right? So he's an immigrant. So working hard was just part of his life.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

And he did shift work. So, you know, two weeks he was doing day shift, two weeks night shift. So we actually got to see our dad quite a bit because there were days where he would be home during day shift. So when we came home for lunch from elementary school, he's actually at home making our lunches for us.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Um, so it was really cool to have dad sort of part of our life in that element. He also, you know, as hard as he worked, he also tried to be an active father. So for me, I think I had a pretty good role model on what an active dad could be. I played competitive ice hockey, ran track and field. Uh, both my brother and I played basketball. And my dad was often around us, taking us to me, especially to hockey tournaments. Um, he was often at our track meets. Once in a while, he'd show up at a basketball game as well. So he tried to be as active as he could. I think more than just physically being in our activities, it was how he showed up in our family life. We left the house a lot on the weekends. If we weren't involved in some sort of sporting activity with him, we went to see family or his friends. His friends were scattered all over Canada and uh British Columbia. So we were often driving the car somewhere, five hours in this direction, five hours in that direction, just to meet up with his friends so he can socialize with them, but also to show us that there's relationships outside of just your immediate family that can play an important part in your life. And so for him, he had a brotherhood of male friends that he grew up with in the home country. So when he came to Canada and when they all immigrated here and did their own things wherever they were, they still kept really close ties. So for us as kids growing up watching this and sort of living through that, it taught me a sense of community outside of just the family dynamic. What does that translate today for me being a father? I think being active with the kids as much as I can. And obviously, you know, when you're working, you know, when the kids were really young and my career at, you know, what my company was taking off, I was way more involved, I think, probably more so in my career journey than I was with my children.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So there's a bit of an imbalance.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah, at a young age. And yeah, and I felt that and it didn't feel right for me.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah. And I think a lot of dads and moms go through that for sure of having to pick and choose between career, education, other really important things, like you know, taking care of elderly parents, and that that eats into the time that they can take care of their kids.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

You got it.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

And uh, it's really cool to hear about the role model that you have. I've I've seen a lot of different versions of this, but the traditional kind of dad that I kind of grew up kind of thinking about was one that you never saw, was always working, showed no emotion, never, you know, you know, hugged you or kissed you or told you that they loved you, um, and generally was kind of that disciplinarian, authoritarian, kind of that that hammer, I guess, if you will. And so I think that's really cool. And so tell me a bit about when you, when you were feeling that imbalance, kind of how did that, how did that shift and and kind of what were some of those conscious things that you had to reconsider so that you could show up the way you wanted to show up? Because I think it happens to a lot of people. And it happens sometimes subconsciously. You may not even notice, like through your just natural flow of life, that things just kind of get in the way, that things are really honest human answer.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

I I think the the first thing that I needed to do was when I came home from work, leaving work at the door.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

And I then become a present father, yeah, dad in the house, not work mode Roger, but dad mode Roger.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And don't make it about me in that moment, make it about the kids. How was your day? You know, and and it's not like you know, I remind the kids that this is my first go at being a dad. And then we have a laugh at it, right? Because they're trying to figure some stuff out as well. Guess what? I'm also trying to figure some stuff out. So I play humor a lot into it and I make them realize I'm not perfect, I'm gonna make mistakes, don't put me on a pedestal because I don't want to let you down, right? And yeah, it then it allows me to be me with them. And I think now they find like, you know, they'll be quirky. My daughter, especially, she'll push the buttons a little bit just to see what kind of reactions she'll get out of me. But then she knows um it's it's just him trying to figure stuff out, right? And they're really affectionate. Um, when I when they can feel my energies off, and they're at that age now where they can they can sense that, yeah, they'll just walk up to me and give me a hug.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

And my daughter especially should be like, I just feel like you maybe needed a hug today. And I think that just resets me, regrounds me. Then it reminds me of why leaving the baggage at the door and just being present, no matter what the stress of life could be, making a sanctuary in the home for me and the kids has been probably the best piece that I could give anyone advice on out there. Do whatever you take, what you can. Maybe sit in your car for 30 minutes, listen to music, do whatever you need to do. Cause when you walk into the house, you get to be the version of you that you're most proud of.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

That's that's how I choose to show up in the house.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I love that. I think that's so important and it's so interesting. I think one of the most biggest disadvantages of this like work-from-home culture that everyone's chasing is exactly that it prevents you from doing that. Especially when I see people that work in like their living spaces or their communal spaces where their family aggregates, whether it's their dining table or, you know, and if that's their setup, that's fine. But this idea of like put everything away, you're not at work anymore, you don't have to think about that, I think is really hard for people to do. And there's almost like this underlying kind of feeling I think a lot of people have that they can't truly unplug because they're also, I think, concerned about something, you know, there. And so that prevents them from being totally present. But I also love that other thing that you mentioned, that humility in letting your kids know that you're also trying something for the first time. I know my mom never admitted that she ever made any mistakes and almost in a way felt like was kind of oblivious. I I've now obviously growing older, have had deeper conversations with her. But growing up, we used to butt heads a lot because we would have a lot of difference of opinions on things. And she was a bit more traditional in certain areas and I was a bit more feeling like those were restrictive. But if she had kind of articulated that she was a bit nervous because she's never really had a kid that's asked to, you know, take her car and go on a road trip or, you know, you know, asked for something that was way outside of our budget and she didn't know how to pay for it. If she kind of articulated it that way, and maybe as a kid, if I was maybe a bit more self-aware, I think things would have worked out differently in our dynamic. And I think having that humility in sharing with your kids, I think how you're processing what they're experiencing, also for the first time, but more from the parent side, is something I hope to aspire to do when my kid maybe becomes a teenager or you know, becomes a young adult.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I'm probably embarking on the most important years of their life.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Totally. Yeah. These are the most critical, formative, like they really like form their real like personality, but really the direction that they want to, you know, decide to take things.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

And why I bring that up is you know, my son's a gamer and he's got his headphones on and dinner's ready, and I've called him three times, four times, seven times now. And so the eighth time I'm calling him, yeah, I'm calling him pretty sternly, right? And and even his sister would be like, dude, don't you listen? Because he's been calling you forever now. Totally. And then he'll come to the table and you know, as we're sitting there, I'm I'm not mad at him, but I'll just I'll say to him, I'm like, hey, do you like it when I raise my voice? And then you put the headphones and the gaming controller down and shut down and sort of make your way to the dinner dinner table. And then he'd be like, No, I don't I don't enjoy that. I'm like, I definitely don't enjoy that. How could we approach that probably differently, the two of us? And he comes to the solution himself, right? And I think that is really key for me in those moments. I don't need to be Mr. Wright, but I can say, hey, I got frustrated because you weren't listening to me, so I spoke loudly to you.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

And I don't I didn't want to do that. It didn't make me feel good, and I'm pretty sure it didn't make you feel good. But then he takes ownership of that, totally, right? Because he knows he was in the wrong in that moment, and then that's it. That's the done conversation. Totally. It doesn't have to be anything bigger than that. Totally. And then his sister loves that, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Totally. And it actually, it's kind of this weird line. Like, I've heard of some people that approach parenting from just asking questions as I became a dad on how I wanted to be a dad, around like making your kids feel more like you're their friend. But I think like the interesting part of what you're sharing is it kind of still draws that really clean line of like, hey, there is like an expectation that you do kind of listen to what I'm asking you to do because I want to make sure that you understand the structure and the routine. And one day you're gonna make these decisions for yourself as to when you decide to come down for dinner and what you decide to put into your system, because I won't be there to do that for you anymore. But I like that approach of that actually unpacking that situation in the moment while it's happening. Because I could tell you growing up, me and my mom, and we never talked about anything in terms of if we had a blow up and we never unpacked it after. We just kind of ignored each other until we kind of didn't care about it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

And nobody talked about it.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Nobody talked about it. And I don't think that's unique to any household. I'm sure a lot of you can relate to that of you blow up with your parents and you're like, I just need to not see them for a couple of days, or I need to make sure I lay low, or you know, oh, I'll wait until they go upstairs before I come downstairs, kind of, you know, ships of the night, yeah. Because you don't even want to just unpack what happened, what was said, what was exchanged, the feelings, because nobody wants to either admit defeat or there's those egos there. And so I like as a parent approaching the conversation with acknowledging maybe, hey, this is where I maybe went above and be like I shouldn't have done that, or this is this was not an appropriate response, but this is what triggered that response. And like, how can we make sure like I don't want to show up like that for you? It doesn't make me feel good, and I don't want that experience for you. Do you like that experience? And in most cases, the answer is no. Nobody wants to be blown up at well.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

I love that you would invite there's a framework in the household, right? And I am the dad, and they both realize okay, without him, got them new bikes this year. Right. But where do those new bikes come from? They don't come from you, they come from me. Yeah. And you know, it's it's not a holding that over their head component, it's teaching them I have a role to play, right? And we talked about commitments and obligations, and so I'm trying to really instill in them what the difference between an obligation is and a commitment, right? And and they're getting this sort of that concept. I said, in this moment, I'm obligated to protect you, to guide you, to teach you. And I said, at some point, when you're an adult, my obligation is gonna switch to a commitment. I'm gonna be committed to be part of your life. And those are two different dynamics. And as you grow up, I want you to really understand why those are two different things. One is uh, I have to do that because I made the decision to bring you into this life, then I'm obligated to get you to absolutely, yeah. Like that's my duty to you as your dad, right? And and somebody might have a polarizing viewpoint on that, and that's okay, but for me, that's how I feel. Yeah, and then once they become adults, I want to be committed to see them grow into these fabulous adults that they're going to be, right? So I'm teaching them everything I'm learning as a dad at the age I'm at now. I'm imparting some of that onto them now in this early development sort of phase in their lives so they can be even better by the time they get to our age, right? And that's really what the goal should be for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yeah, I think that's exactly the way I view it is how do you equip your kids, your nieces, your nephews, the young children in your life, the impressionable people in your life with the abilities and the opportunities that you never had. And I think that pay it forward thought and I think that idea of planting a tree that you'll never be able to shit sit under the this the shade of, I think is really important. And the thing I think a lot about is the world that your kids are growing up in, the world that my son is gonna grow up in, is completely different than the world that you grew up in and even the world that I grew up in.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

And I only can consider all of the situations that they're gonna navigate that I could have never even fathomed would have been something that I had to consider. And will they have the skills that they need to navigate that accordingly? And and I think. That's something I don't know that, at least when I think of my upbringing or when I look at kind of the more traditional parenting styles, really thought about is I think they kind of raised you with the idea that the world would always be the way that they grew up in it, versus evolving that, okay, you know what? Maybe going to university isn't the right call because right now getting a university degree doesn't really help you engage in the world in a in a different way. Maybe becoming going into the trade. I remember when my mom, when when she heard of anybody going into the trades, she looked down on those people. She used to think those people were uneducated or not qualified. And to be honest, in the world that we live in today, that was like maybe the best decision that anybody could make because a computer cannot fix your car or you know go and rewire your house or fix the HVAC problems in your in your home.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Well, listen, I'll even add landscaping.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Snow removal. Totally. Are you kidding me? Some of those are the best jobs or businesses to start because there's such a big demand for all.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

100%. But I think back to you know to your point around being a really effective parent or being a really effective dad, I think you have to know that your kids are going to navigate things that you have never navigated. And all your job is is to try to do the to the best of your ability in whatever situation you're in to set them up for success to the best of your you know opportunity. And I think that that idea of like really making sure that they feel set up is super important, even if it's underappreciated in the moment, because I think kids are still kids.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah, it's going to be.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, kids are still kids.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

But as the adult, you just have to persevere through that yourself. Totally. Like, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Still stay true to who you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Totally. It is, it is, it is the I think the best example of like you really only get the reward like much further down the line, uh, because you know, it really comes to its accura actualization. So I think that's super important.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

You had mentioned in the intro to today's topic, um nature versus nurture.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

So I know you have a thought around that.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

I have a strong opinion on this. I have a really strong opinion on this. So in my experience and kind of growing up uh, you know, in the in the city of Toronto, like Finch and Dufferin, and then kind of moving up to Vaughan, and kind of this is kind of my my upbringing area. Um what I've come to the conclusion of when I think about nature versus nurture, and for those of you that aren't familiar with this topic, this is basically in a very high level, this idea that um who someone is, their nature, is kind of baked into them. It's kind of biologically or you know, philosophically programmed into them. And when you think about upbringing, you can nurture them. So you can provide them different things or opportunities or you know, tools, classes, whatever you, education to nurture a specific thing out of them. And so for me, my belief on this is I believe your kids are from a nature perspective who they are. I don't believe that you can change their nature. I think, and when I say nature, I don't mean like random things like what flavor of ice cream they like, or you know, what color, what's their favorite color. I the when I say nature is like you can see, for example, like my son, it's in his nature. You can see that he's a he's a very like thrill-seeking kid. Like he's not scared of things. Uh, it's in his nature. He he likes to go down a slide head first, like he enjoys that experience. That's like in his nature. Yeah. And for me, because of that thought, I believe, as an from a nurture perspective, you cannot nurture or erase someone out of who they're meant to be. Yeah. And if you try to do that, that's often where conflict and clash and and just lots of negative things happen if you don't accept their nature. Now, from a nurturing perspective, I think you have to find your balance of nurturing their nature. So, you know, something my wife and I talk a lot about is like, okay, well, if he's a thrill seeker and one day he wants to jump out of a plane, that scares us. That that really that's that makes us really nervous. Yeah. But it's in his nature. So we can put all these parameters around him and say, you're never allowed to do that and guilt trip him and make him feel like the worst person ever. I mean, he could do it, or worse, he doesn't, and then he resents us for it. Yeah. Because we're asking him to go against something that's in his nature because it doesn't make sense to us because that's not in our nature. I'm not a thrill seeker. It's not something that comes very naturally to me. And so I think for me as a dad, something I've thought a lot about is can I identify early my kid's nature? And I don't have a scientific answer as to exactly when you can identify it. I think it kind of happens over time.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

And it evolves, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:59

And it evolves, but but there's like these like core principles. Like you can just naturally see, like, especially when you meet someone and you just see them do something and you're like, I, and I hear this phrase all the time. Oh, you were born to do that. Yeah. Like, oh man, you were like when I see somebody that can dance incredibly well, like when I see those like dancing videos on the internet, I'm like, you know what? I I I don't even know how you discovered your body could do that. Yeah, like I know my body can't. Like, I know that for sure. And I don't think, no matter how many dance classes or how many, you know, things, it's just not in my nature. Sure. It's just not. It's just I'm not gifted in that area. I'm just not naturally able to move my body in a way that I think can do some of these cool moves. And so I think that's kind of where I've really come to this conclusion. And that's like more superficial, but I even think of something like is it in your nature to be someone that's forgiving? Is that in your nature? Right. Some people are naturally just very resentful and very just hard on the world and hard on themselves. That's their nature. And so, okay, that's an interesting one. Like, how do you nurture that so it doesn't do more damage than more good? But that's my take on nature versus nurture.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Yeah, I would fundamentally say I'm aligned. Yeah, you are who you are. Um, I I could just, you know, I I can only describe it from my own upbringing.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Right. And my parents they talked to me about guardrails and sort of, hey, you know, if you do this, it's probably not gonna look good, or if you did that, it's not gonna. I did it anyways. I didn't get scolded for it, I didn't get grounded for it, there was no spankings or anything like that. My dad would just say one thing to me when I left the house, and he'd just look me deadpan in the eye and be like, hey, yeah, make good decisions.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Right? So just make good decisions. Listen, dude, I I'm not gonna be able to stop you from doing whatever it is that you're going out there to do with whoever you're gonna go do it with. I just need you to know one thing. Just make good decisions so then I can have peace of mind.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

And that's the promise I would always make. I mean, it's like, yeah, I promise you I'll make good decisions. Did I always make good decisions? I would say 85% of the time I make good decisions.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Nobody's perfect, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

That other 15% of the time, it was exploratory. Yeah. So I just did what I needed to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah, totally. And I think for me, that's I think the hard part is the acceptance that as good of a parent as you are, as an amazing of a parent, you could be like the best parent on the internet or you know, read every book, go to every course, go to every seminar to up your parenting game. Your kids are who they are. Yeah. And so the more you resist that, and the more you try to, I think, and from what I've seen in my upbringing, force them into the mold of the nature that you want them to be. And this can happen with education. Hey, I I need you to be more book smart and I need you to be more driven in the books. Well, maybe their nature is to be a bit more street smart, or maybe their nature is to be more good with their hands.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

100%.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

That's good. But if you if you force them into like, no, no, no, like you're not succeeding unless you get A's and you're on the honor roll and you do all these things. And it's it's really fascinating because the reason I have such a strong opinion on this is I've seen such brilliant people that I've grown up with, and even in my professional journey, who I think have been convinced by their loved ones, namely their parents, that they're not successful or they're not maybe good at anything because they don't fit the mold that their parents wanted them or the nature that they wanted them to fit. Um, and I think that's quite sad. And and I I remember, you know, when I when I found out I was becoming a dad, I I told myself, as hard as it may be, because you know, it's kind of like a lottery ticket. I you never know what, you know, what you're gonna get. Yeah. Um, because I don't think your DNA has anything to do with, you know, nature, because I've seen lots of parents and lots of kid dynamics, and I'm like, wow, you two are totally, totally different. I would not have committed that. I would not have thought this was from the same household. Yeah. But I I think making sure that your kids have a way to explore their nature in a way that you feel like is controlled and safe and gives them enough opportunity to really embrace it, I think only does good. I don't think I've I've not seen a single example of it ever doing bad. In most cases, what it does is it allows them to maybe fully kind of develop into, like, you know, you know, use your son as uh, you know, you mentioned Arjun's a gamer. And so maybe naturally he's very competitive. And like he's just naturally very techie, or he's naturally just into like the more, you know, systematic things. And so it's almost like if you just embrace that with controllables and nurture that in a way that actually benefits him in the long run, yeah, it doesn't make it feel like he's wasting his time playing video games or singing or you know, and playing a sport, whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

You bring up a really good point. And and I don't approach it from that, right? Where I do approach it from is like, hey, dude, yeah, you need to go ride your bike. You need to go for a run, you need to go do some exercise. Yeah. And so, you know, he's finding his own happy balance, right? He's a volleyball player, he's found badminton this last year as well. So he's finding what he's comfortable and sort of passionate about. I'm not forcing anything down his throat, right? Like I played ice hockey, basketball. I didn't make him do any of that. He wanted to play some basketball, he did. I never pushed him towards hockey. He naturally went through and said, Hey, you know what? I want to try volleyball. Great. Hey, I want to play badminton even better. And so I do. I massage his gaming. I'm I'm a gamer. Listen, the gaming consoles are all mine that he's playing on. Totally. So I'm the one to blame for the gaming kid that he is, and and I don't hold blame on it because he's good at it. Yeah. Right. So totally. And maybe one day, like to your point, he's a very smart kid. He's logical in his thought patterns, he's methodical on breaking things down. And I would uh sort of say and and sort of guide that gaming probably gave him a little bit of that when he's breaking a code or discovering how to win somewhere in sort of challenge. There's a thinking capacity in there that I can't get to, but he can do it with his eyes closed. That's gonna serve him somewhere down the line in a way that you and I probably can't even understand in this moment.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah, no, I love that. And I think even like in the activities like riding a bike or playing volleyball, it's like, how do you kind of also show him, hey, actually, this is kind of like a video game. Like, how do we nurture, how do you nurture that into like actually, this is kind of the thing that you enjoy doing? It's just in a different medium or it's showing up in a different way. And if you if you reframe it like that, it it's like, oh, okay, well, yeah, you're right. I do kind of enjoy the idea of leveling up or, you know, you know, acquiring a new skill or badge or whatever, whatever video games do. I'm not a gamer personally, but um no, I think I think nurturing and kind of building these kind of pathways, I think is is kind of the art of being a parent. Um, and it's and it's a really tough art. It's a really hard one.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

You know, you asked me some of the proud moments of of my two kids. And another one is I like their their mom and I didn't teach them how to ride bikes.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Really?

SPEAKER_01 34:04

I had bought them bikes and sort of with training wheels, and they're on there sort of, you know, puttering around figuring out how to ride a bike. Then Arjun asked me to take the training wheels off of his bike. So I took the training wheels off of his bike. I didn't train him how to ride his bike. He's like, I'm gonna just go do this. Watch. And he took the bike out onto the parking lot and rode the bike and then looked at me so proud, Dev. And I just looked at him, I'm like, dude, you figured it out yourself. He goes, Yeah. He goes, I've been riding the bike even with the training wheels off the training wheels, kind of right in the middle. There you go. And he goes, I goes, I figured out my balance. Yeah, and then he asked both his mom and I not to train our daughter because he wanted to train our daughter. So then the next weekend, she's a year and a bit younger, he taught her how to ride her bike the very next weekend.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

And we had nothing to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

So I wanted to share that story.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

No, that's really cool. So, with that, I would say I would ask for you to consider a couple of things. If you're a parent, think about your kids and ask yourself, do you know what their nature is? Like if you were to write down on a piece of paper what's naturally something that they do or what what is in what's in them? Like what have you noticed about them that you didn't teach them that just they do automatically? And, you know, if you're not a parent and if that's something that you maybe want, I think, you know, ask yourself, where do you land on that? Do you believe in, you know, nature versus nurture? And do you think, you know, your parenting style and the environment that you put them in and all the extracurriculars can really nurture the person that you want them to become? Or, you know, where do you where do you believe that that opportunity is?

SPEAKER_01 35:43

And I think there's another component of um, you know, don't push them down the path you wanted to go down and you chose not to go down.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Right? That's not fair. And I think, you know, one of the things um my dad always said to me is if you want to play sports, play sports. If you don't, don't. And when I was younger, I did not play sports. I was a late bloomer. I actually didn't start playing hockey till I was like 11 years old. Yeah. And then my second year playing hockey, I made the triple A rep team. So I was a late bloomer and I just had sort of I figured out how to play hockey and skate, and I figured that all out in about a year and a half. And I would say the same to my kids. I don't put this pressure on them, but the things that they're gonna figure out, they're gonna figure out whether I want them to or not. Right. And totally true. Some kids are late bloomers. Let them sort of come into their own. Absolutely. You'll be surprised at how talented they become.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, and you know, it's it's an interesting thing because I think when you think of kids being late bloomers, I even say that that could be like, you know, and I haven't parented a young 20-something year old, but that could be up till they're 20, 25, 30, because again, everyone's kind of on this journey and kind of figuring things out. And as a parent, if you make your kids' lives more complicated because of you getting them to try to perform something that they're not really wanting to or ready to, I think that's a really good point. Um, thank you all for listening to this episode again. Happy Father's Day. Uh, and we're really excited um that you came on uh this journey with us. So we're looking forward to seeing you all next Sunday, and uh, we wish you all a good rest of the day. See you on Happy Father's Day.