Somewhere In Between

There are two questions that can unlock more honesty in ten minutes than most conversations get to in years. On this episode of See Through, Dev and Roger sit down with both of them — and neither host walks away unscathed.

One question forces you to name the exact age you were at your best. The other asks what you’re actually working toward right now. Before they get there, Dev shares a question Anne Hathaway once asked herself that he hasn’t been able to shake, and Roger opens up about the McConaughey memoir that reshaped how he thinks about his own story.

What follows is raw, unscripted, and a little uncomfortable in the best way. Tune in to hear the ages they picked, the moments that got them there, and the goals they’re chasing next — then ask yourself the same two questions.

Follow us @seethroughpodcast

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:16

All right. Well, welcome uh to today's see-through episode. Roger, how are you? I'm doing pretty good, Dev. Um, how are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I'm excited for today's episode. Um, for today's episode, we're gonna focus on these two really thought-provoking questions that we found that we also think would be great if you had any social events coming up, any family gatherings, any dinners with friends, loved ones, maybe even a date or two uh that you can ask. Because I think having thoughtful questions and fun questions to spark a dialogue, those are my favorite kind of hangouts where you start on one topic and then one thing leads to another and you don't really even know how you end up on a variety of things.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah, I think it's uh exploring and being open to conversation, A, but also maybe looking a little bit deeper inward to find out for yourself who you are. Yeah. And and maybe you know where where you're headed and and the things that drive your passions, your motivations in life. I do also want to share with everyone that we're trying a new platform today. We are, yes. Um that we've now got video sort of coming into our podcast, and we're just testing it out to see how it shows up. And if it looks and feels as good as we want it to, then all of you will be able to finally see the faces behind the voices.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yes, and we are we are hoping to bring video to the podcast. We're committed to bringing video to the podcast, but we of course want to make sure it represents us the way we want it to represent us. Uh, but yeah, that's also really cool. That's been a cool learning exercise. And honestly, something that I would encourage all of you to do is to try to challenge yourself to do something that you've never done before. There's like a rewarding feeling of starting something new, struggling, failing, yeah, and then figuring it out in the end. So yeah, we're excited to see how this goes. And obviously, you'll also find out if this worked or not, because you'll be able to either see this in video or not see this in video.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah. It's it's funny. Um, I went for dinner with a couple of my good friends uh just the other night, and uh I introduced the podcast to them because we finally launched it. And both of them listened to it, and then they both gave me feedback and they were both just blown away. You know, my friend Steve, he he just said he goes, Listen, I'm proud of you just to just for taking the courage to put it out there. Um, you know, because it takes a bold step to do something that makes you super uncomfortable, to give your perspectives and opinions out there for the ether to make judgment on. Um, you know, some people will find value in it, hopefully, and some people may challenge it. But he said, listen, kudos that you guys are taking the step. And he's excited for, in his words, the meat and potatoes of where these conversations go for the two of us.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, I think that makes the two of us, I'm kind of curious to see where this goes as well. Um, but before we jump into those conversation starters, like I was mentioning, um, we just thought like maybe we could start each episode talking a bit about what's been on our minds, anything we've been consuming, or just anything that's happening in our worlds that might be worth talking through or might be worth talking about. So do you want to kick things off or should I?

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yeah, I mean, we can go really deep here. Um, you know, we were kind of just sharing a few ideas before we sat down and just hit the record button. Things like the economy, right? The wars in the world. At first I thought maybe I could go deep and unpack some of that, but that may be a little, a little sort of sidebared. And those could be their own podcast, really, when you think of how big those topics are. Yeah, it's true. So rather than going really deep in some of those thoughts, I thought, okay, what's top of mind for me, and hopefully it's relatable to a lot of you. Well, with the nicer weather, I've finally set up the patio, but I've got to clean and organize my garage and storage space. It's it's like a tornado went off in there. Yeah. Um, and I know for me in my life, I I like things, my OCD kicks in, I like things a particular way. Um, and for me, I think that's the last space in my house where I've got to put some elbow grease into it. Okay, nice. And uh and take care of that. I also think for me, I'm finishing up a book. Uh, it's called Green Lights. If you haven't read it, it's from Matthew McConaughey. It's a bit of a biography on his life lessons and what he's learned over the course of his um life and career in film and family life and sort of where he gets his inspiration and motivation. It's cool. I really enjoy, I'm really enjoying the book. I'm almost done. I'm in the final chapter of it. Um, but I'm I'm blown away with his philosophy in life. I can I can relate to a lot of his ideologies.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah, I remember when I when I first learned of Matthew McConhey, he was just kind of this like heart throb and all these like rom-coms. Then he did Interstellar, which I think was the most clinically robbed movie of all time of the accolades that it didn't get. And then I think what really for me, I remember, I remember thinking, oh, this person has a lot more depth was his um Oscar acceptance speech. Um, if you haven't seen that, I recommend YouTubeing it or Googling it. Um, it was a really cool speech, but no, I have not read that book, but I'll definitely check it out. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah, it's a good, it's an easy read. Yeah. Um, and it's it's quite powerful in it because he speaks in his dynamic relationships with his parents, his mom, his dad, yeah, and his two brothers. And I can relate to that, you know, having sort of a very similar family dynamic and two siblings and really how close he is with them. Yeah, I was awe-inspired of how they interact with each other still to this day. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

That's really cool. Um, I would not say that I am living as deeply as you with the economy and all that stuff. Uh I think this week what consumed a lot of my attention um is just honestly family life and making sure that my family is as balanced as I want it to be. But to be honest, the things that were the most exciting that happened to me this week, um, and this will kind of date when this episode was recorded versus when you're hearing it. Uh, but the Survivor 50 finale happened this week. I don't know if you know how big of a Survivor fan I am. I didn't know that. No, I'm a massive Survivor fan. One of my like goals in life is to play Survivor.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Really?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

I I would love the opportunity to go on Survivor because I mean, I'm sure everyone thinks this, but I truly believe I can win. I think I could win. I don't know if my physical game, I don't know how many immunity challenges I would win, but I think I could build some really, really good alliances and some crazy blind sights. But in any case, that I can see Survivor 50 happened. It was an amazing season, but I did not love kind of how it all wrapped up and how it all ended, but it was a really cool moment because they brought back all these like OG players and all these new players, so that was that was really cool. Um, I also have been reading, uh, that was one of my goals this year was to read a new book every month. Nice. And so I just finished the book for the month of May, which is a book called Yellow Face. And normally I'm kind of more of the self-help kind of more like books to just improve your life experience kind of thing. I don't read a lot of stories or fiction, but this book um was recommended to me uh by a friend. And when we when I read it, I have to tell you, if you have never heard of it, it's basically a book about uh an author who steals an idea from a friend who regrettably passes away. But there's like a deep underlying kind of concept about how we view race and how we view, you know, who can say and represent what, and if you know, inclusivity is about everyone feeling welcome at a table. Why, why is it okay if you know we get the same message out of one person's mouth, but then it radically changes our opinion if it comes out of another person's mouth based on their race? And I'll leave it there because it's such a good book, but I just finished that this week and I really, really enjoyed it. Um, and then the last thing is I don't I don't use TikTok anymore. That was like a big shift that I made um this year because I was spending way too much time in my evenings doom scrolling and I was just not living my life. I felt like I wasn't present.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

And so consume you, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, and so I got rid of it. But my wife is not there, she is she's like always TikToking, which is totally fine. And so we have this kind of tradition where once a week she shows me a bunch of TikToks that she thinks I might enjoy or I might want to consume. That because there are some great motivational videos, or you learn some really intriguing things, like there are some really positive things on TikTok. Anyways, one of the things that she showed me was Anne Hathaway, the great Anne Hathaway, who if you don't know, if you didn't yeah, if you didn't listen to our OGA, our introduction episode, I'll leave it there. Go and check that out. But Anne Hathaway is doing five movies this year, which is wow, unbelievable for any actor or actress. And one of the things that uh she was asked, she was at a pro um an event, I think it was the Met Gala or something like that. And, you know, one of the one of the uh questions that the interviewer was asking is, you know, Ann, like this is a big year for you. You probably are feeling exhausted and you're probably feeling really tired. Um, and I wrote this this statement down um that she said, what she said to this reporter, which I can't get out of my head, it's been something I've been asking myself every day, is she's like, you're right. Um, you know, it it was a lot of work and it was a lot of commitment and it took a lot of sacrifice. Um but the question she asked herself every day is, does she love the reason that she's tired? Oh, I like that. Do you love the reason that you're tired?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

And I was like, wow, that's such a such a good question to ask yourself, especially when you're, you know, having to get up to maybe want to go to the gym or, you know, after work, you have to, you know, fulfill the obligations of your life, whether that's to cook dinner or cut the grass or do whatever chore manual labor or you know, anything that just just the daily nuances of life. You're studying for like 20 hours a day because you're trying to pass this next big exam. But like, do you love the reason that you're tired? Yeah, and I cannot get that question out of my head. Every time I feel super tired, yeah, I'm like, dang, do I love why I'm tired right now? Is it something that I wanted? Is it something that I hoped for? And that's especially helped me reframe how tired I felt being like a first-time parent. Yeah. Because it's tiring. Of course, it's exhausting. But I love the reason that I'm tired. I'm happy that that's the reason I'm tired. What an amazing perspective. Yeah, it was such a cool like yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

I'm gonna steal that.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yeah, that was good, right? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I thought I thought you might like that. Anyways, so yeah, that's kind of what our week has is looked like. And so after the break, um, we'll introduce the two questions. I'm really excited about these two questions. I'm a little nervous about same here. I'm a little nervous about my thoughts on these questions. And if you didn't know, these episodes, we don't really spend a lot of time, you know, putting a script or like a plan together. We usually sit down and we talk through kind of what we want to accomplish in our episode. Yeah, and then we hit record. And outside of maybe just some like technical difficulties, what you're hearing is just us hitting record and then stopping hitting record and then posting it for y'all to listen to. So forgive us for any mistakes or any blubs, but we're trying our best to just kind of keep this as authentic as possible.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Well, we joked around at the beginning before we even hit record today, and we were kind of teasing each other. It's we're doing this as one take wonders.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

It's just sitting down and just having an idle conversation. What I really like about sort of that approach to it, nothing's curated. Yes, yes. It's putting you on the spot, sort of, right? And getting an authentic response. Yes. And, you know, for the viewers and listeners, there might be some raw emotions that we're not expecting that might end up coming out because of the dialogues we start embarking on. Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Well, we'll see you right after this break. All right. So as I shared at the beginning of this episode, we wanted to focus on two questions that we felt were really thought-provoking. And I think it's healthy to ask yourself difficult questions. I think it's very good for your mental health. It's really good for just kind of your overall kind of perspective on where you feel like your life is headed. And so I'll let Roger maybe ask this first question because it was something that you had in your notes, which I really loved. Because as soon as I heard it, I'm like, ah, I really want to talk about that today. And I'd never really asked myself this question until about 15 minutes ago before we started hitting record. Um, yeah, so what's that question, Roger?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yeah, I think it's a powerful question to ask ourselves and reflect on. And the question I'm gonna ask you is at what age do you think you were at your best?

SPEAKER_01 12:57

At what age do I think I was at my best? What a good question. And I'm sure if you're listening, you're immediately asking yourself that question in introspection. And that's kind of what I hope you're doing, and I hope that you find your answer. But it is a really good thought because before I even answer, the moment I heard that question, the thing that I immediately started to think about is how important it is to not always get stuck in the past, or sometimes to like chase an old version of yourself. 100%. Right? So as soon as you ask me that, I'm like, oh man, like if my answer is not like how I feel right now, am I immediately like, oh dude, I'm not doing the best that I can? And yeah, I don't think that's true. I think life has its seasons, and you're gonna go through these ebbs and flows and ups and downs. But there are certain seasons that feel like a bit more of a high, and certain seasons that don't feel um as much. But my answer to your question, I think, was based on at what age I felt I was the most balanced. That's kind of how I absorbed your life. Where did I feel I was the most balanced? Because what I found is as I've grown older and as I've aged, different aspects of life became heavier to carry, which made it harder to balance. Well, so I read this quote once about it's not the burden of life that breaks you down, it's the way you carry it. Correct. Because, you know, your health is like if you think of all these as like, you know, weights, your health is away, your relationships are away, your your mental health is away, your spiritual health is away, all these things are weights. And so at certain points in your life, some of these feel a lot heavier and some of these feel a lot lighter. And for me, I felt at the age of 24. So in 2017, at the age of 24, I felt that I had maybe the most optimal balance that I've so far achieved in my lifetime thus far. And I wanted to expand on that a little bit. Now, for context, when I was 24, I'd felt like for the first time I was behind where I expected to be for how old I was. Sure. And that was not based off of any logical, that was just based off of what I felt like the world forced me to think in terms of where I should have been. You know, I should have been more established in my career, I should have had more savings, I should have been in better physical health, I should have been in a relate, like there's all these things that I felt like I wanted, but I didn't have any of them.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

And the reason I didn't have any of them is I made no decisions leading up to that point that allowed me to have any of those things. So it wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't so it wasn't a sob story. It's like, well, why didn't you have savings? It's oh, I don't know, because I was spending all my money on sneakers. Okay, that makes sense. So be it. And well, why wasn't your career taking off? Well, it's because I was staying up till 2 a.m. playing Destiny with my friends and I was super tired, and so I didn't do a great job when I went to the show. Yeah, like I mean, I think, oh, if you want something, you have to kind of know, well, why why aren't why aren't I there? And so at the age of 24, I don't think I had this like profound like kumbaya or like you know, this you know, moment where something like really shocked my world. And and I've seen a lot of people actually go through moments where something shocking happens, and then that's what triggers them to really erratically change. Yeah. Um, but I think there was just one point where I just felt, you know what, if I don't commit at least a year of my life to just trying my best to doing what I believed I was capable of, I would regret it. And then I knew that that would only lead to negative consequences as I grew older and older and older. And so that year I made a lot of changes, which didn't involve getting rid of anything. It was more about how do I balance each of the things that I was giving my energy to where I felt like it had more of an equilibrium and it felt more like everything was working in my favor versus everything working against me. And so, yeah, I just remember at that age, um, that full year of life, I basically accomplished everything that I set out to do in a way that I couldn't have even expected to have accomplished. And that were things like, you know, I was able to improve the relationship I had with all of my friend groups and not just overfixate on just one social circle. Yeah. Um, my career exceeded my expectations. I think I remember this so vividly when I compared how much I was making on January 1st of that year to how much I was making on December 31st that year, I tripled my economy. Not that money is always the object, but money definitely motivates people to want to be better. And it definitely did at that age for me.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

But it can also be an indicator of the work you've put in.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah, it's a it's a result, it's a measurable result. Yeah. And so, yeah, I do think money does matter. And so at the time I felt really good. But there were two things happening. I felt like I was working harder at making more money, but then the other balance was I was being more balanced in where I was spending my money. Yeah. And so it was like, okay, do I need to get every sneaker or do I just need to get the sneakers that I feel like I'm gonna wear? And that, like, you know, the sneakers were still there though. Oh, yeah. Because I I think anytime you cold turkey something, it's never sustainable. I've never seen anyone that just says, Hey, I love this thing, but now I'm just gonna stop. And now now I'm gonna like get over it and now I'm never gonna think about it again. I think that's I don't think that's realistic. Um, and then last but not least, um, that year, I also started dating my now wife.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

That was the year that I met and well, not met, that's a different story, but that was the year that we started dating. And we dated in May of that year, and we actually, you know, just celebrated our nine-year anniversary recently. Yeah, our dating anniversary, which is crazy. But that year really, like when I think of all of the milestones that I hit that year, that year substantially changed my life. And so the thing that I just wanted to kind of conclude with that I was thinking about is for me, I feel like at every age you're given something, and then it also takes something.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Like when you turn whatever age you're turning, whether it's you know 16 or 18 or 30 or 50 or 70, you're you're gonna be given something, you're gonna take something. And I think at the at the ripe old age of 24, the thing I was given was finally the motivation I needed to want to do better for myself. And the thing that it took from me was maybe this it really felt like it was the last year that I felt like I was a kid and I actually really started to feel like an adult.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

I think it kind of took that childlike feeling out of my life where I felt like I was still a kid, and now I was like, no, like I've got to be a grown person and try and put my life to where I wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, it's part of the maturing process, right? Yeah. And one word that came to mind as you were speaking, sharing your examples was the word intentional. Yeah. Right? Just becoming way more intentional in everything you were doing, being present in it, um, your relationship, your career, your mind, body, and soul, if you will. Um, and approaching everything with sort of a balanced approach, as you put it eloquently. I think that's that's what a lot of us need to do in those profound moments in our lives.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah. And you know, the intentionality is it's I think it's the right word to use. I think it wasn't done in a way where I woke up every day and I asked myself, like, oh, if I don't do this, like I think I didn't use like fear as a motivator. I used like, I was more intentional about like, ah, you know what? I just want to chase being the best version of myself this year. Not because of like I'm scared of who I might become if I didn't, but more about I'm excited to see what would happen if I did. And I think that's like that mindset, didn't make it feel as complicated. Cause I think that's what was holding me back as I reflect on it is I was always doing something more out of fear of the consequence of not doing it versus doing it because it felt like it was what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I think the year that 24th year of life, that Kobe year, that Mamba mentality year, yeah, totally switched that. And I feel like the trajectory of my life was so altered because of that one year of life. So many important things happened in that year for me that it it unlocked, I think, phases of my life that I didn't even know were possible.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Well, thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yeah, great question.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah, and deep. Like you really thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah. Um well, what do you what would your answer be for that? What would what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Listening to you speak immediately, you know, I think for a lot of us our natural answer is going to be, well, right now. Because you said that, right? Yeah. Because you you What you know today is the most knowledge you've ever had.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

And because of that, you would assume that living in the moments today would be those best moments because you have all this knowledge, you know, your failures, your successes, the highs and the lows, if you will. Yeah. You know, your kids are growing up. I've got two kids, and I'm watching them, you know, become who they're supposed to be. Yeah. So yeah, I think that would have been the easy answer. But then as you were speaking, I started really unwinding my life's reel. And then I went to my 20s as well, originally. Yeah. And I thought of, you know, in my 20s, my dad was still alive. We, you know, we had this family dynamic. I was in and out of home, meaning I, you know, in the summers I would come home and I was away at college, university, just doing my own thing. But there was this, you know, the family dynamic was still solid and everyone was around. Then really, you know, as I listened to you and I thought of when was the time in my life that I think I was the best version of me was cracking into my 30s, mid-30s, and the time frame there. And I'll share why. In that time frame, you know, I'm born and raised in British Columbia. I decided to move from the Lower Mainland, Vancouver area, and come to Ontario. And that decision was made probably within a month and a half that, you know what, I'm just gonna go try something new.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

And at that point, I had lost my dad, and I went on this spiritual journey. Uh, you know, one of my uncles took me to the motherland to India, and you know, we were we were there for an extended period of time. And one of the things I asked him to do was take me to the military forts my dad was based out of when he was in the Indian military when he was young. And so Fort Agra was one of them, right behind the Taj Mahal. So my uncle, my mom's youngest brother, took me there and he sort of took me through, you know, where my dad's village was, my mom's village, and really a moment for me to bond with my grassroots of where my heritage comes from. I don't know what it did to me. It fundamentally just changed my mindset. It gave me this strength. It's weird, man. It's like when you go back to these old countries with you know deep-rooted cultural, spiritual um societies, I think there's something in there that you can feed off of.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, I think there is an energy when you see someone that's so different in how their lived reality and experiences compare to you. Like, you know, and I think you can experience that in so many parts of the world, but I think it's it's definitely it definitely shifts how you look at your own daily life for sure 100%.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

So it gave me perspective. I came back and you know, one of my other uncles made a comment and he said to me, something's changed. And it would then it was soon after that. I'm like, you know what? I have to make some bold moves for myself and do things that are gonna make me uncomfortable and probably scare the living bejesus out of me. Right. So I decided to move to Ontario. And so then, yeah, I sold my house. I'm here, and the safety net's gone, and now I have to find a job and I have to start. Oh, you came here with no job. I had a contract lined up based on the industry I was coming out of. Yeah, but that contract was like 10 months down the road.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Right, okay. So there was a lot of gap time.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

There's a lot of gap time. I had sold my house, so money wasn't a 911, but I didn't want to spend all that. Yeah, so um, so then I just yeah, I I really need to chase down a sort of making some money, living, exploring the city, getting comfortable in my new reality, getting back into the gym. And I would say, yeah, for me, 32 onwards, you know, until maybe my 40th year were the most profound years of my life because I rediscovered my capabilities, what capacities I could operate in. And it's funny you talked about fear. Fear has never been a factor in my life. And for all of you who understand that reference, that's a Joe Rogan show, uh Fear Factor. At the end of that show, when a contestant finished all of the challenges, Joe would say to that contestant, fear was not a factor. And for me, that's kind of how I chose to live my life in that moment. That I could feel like I'm in this big city all by myself and be afraid of.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah, I see. I'm the opposite with you there. I I admire anyone that leaves their home base or like their comfort, like especially like geographically, like I could not fathom the idea of moving to another part of Canada, let alone even like another country. And so Yeah, I think it's it's it's awesome that that wasn't a case for you. I think that isn't something that I relate to at all. I would be terrified, and which is part of the reason I've literally grown up in the same 30 kilometer radius. I haven't left the 30-kilometer radius that um I grew up in, uh, and I don't have any plans to. And and I joke about it, but they're all it's they're I'm bluffing. It's never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

My gentle reminder to myself was always my parents' journey, emigrating from India, coming to Canada, not knowing English, not really having the lick of any money, and figuring it out and building something for themselves. And I remember my my father would always say to me, He's like, You have no excuses. You're born and raised here, you understand the culture, you speak the language, so you're already 10 10 steps ahead of where I was when I came. And that's the ideology I've been living my life with. So fear is not a factor. Just go out there, do the things. You're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna have profound low learns. I think of all the the losses, the significant heartbreaks, but then all the successes and joys because of the hard work you're putting in. And now I'm at a place where I'm watching my children grow up. So the next generation and the legacy that I've created, I'm living through, I think the eyes my dad was living through when he had his children at home around him. I'm able to sort of experience that in this moment for myself.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah, see, my mom did the same thing with leaving India, coming here, starting fresh. I looked at that and been like, that couldn't be me. That just can't be me. I do not have the guts to do that. So yeah, I think that's that's quite impressive. But again, a really great answer. And I think you started this by sharing that idea of like everyone thinks it's happening right now. Something I've been reflecting on, and even as we were talking just now, is I think everyone goes through like a prime in their life. Like they're at their apex, they're at the top of their game. Yeah. And then there comes a time where that you start to kind of, it's not like a roller coaster where it's super fast where you go downhill, but it's like you'll never be at that like absolute peak. And I think people are so petrified of knowing whether they're before their prime or at their prime or after their prime. And I think for that reason, a lot of people convince themselves or want to live in this reality that that's happening to me right now. But I don't think that that should be the case a hundred percent of the time. I think there are moments where you know you need to say to yourself, okay, did I have I maybe surpassed or have I hit my maximum capacity? For sure. And then if you have, well, then be satisfied and be proud of yourself and then start to gracefully come down versus burn yourself out or, you know, exhaust yourself trying to, you know, keep that up. But that's such a great story about that profound journey. And I will say changing your environment is probably the single biggest way to naturally shift your mindset.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

100%.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

That I agree with. It doesn't even need to be as drastic as like moving to another part of the world. It could be. It could be, it absolutely could be. Um, but I find like even like when I've seen people change maybe where they study or where they do their work, like where they physically do that. Yeah, it naturally changes how they feel about that task or that whatever it is they're trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

I think change is important, right? When you get comfortable, you can you set it plateau. Yes. Um, making yourself uncomfortable is is a really good way to see where you are with yourself. Totally. Um, and how much you do truly trust and love yourself, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Totally. So, yeah, that's our first conversation started question. And I would highly recommend the next time you're at any kind of get together or maybe with somebody that you really confide in, or somebody that you want to get to know a bit more, ask them that question.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah. It's a great question. We do have a second question. Yeah, what's our second question? And you know, I do want to respect time because it may go long. So um let me ask the second question. What's one goal you have for yourself today?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Yeah. A good question can be quite deep depending on where you're at. 100%. And the goal that I would say that I've been thinking a lot about that I have for myself, and this is like more of like a long-term vision goal that I have in terms of how I want to operate in my life. And this is only a goal that I feel like I've had to set for myself, I would say, in the last couple of years, give or take. And that goal is my goal is to be okay with having enough and not feeling like I'm not ambitious by not chasing that next thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

That's a good perspective.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

That's my goal. And I'll tell you why. I remember I had this moment last year where I had an opportunity to grow my career a step further and to go in a different direction. And it would give me more financial opportunity, it would give me more responsibility, it would give me a fancier title, all the things that you know people love to update their LinkedIns around, which I hate LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, and so I remember asking myself, and I remember, you know, it's funny that this question kind of piggybacks off the last question. If you asked me at 24 what I wanted, I would say I have three times of everything I wanted, and what my answer would have been in 24. Right. So my question to myself now is well, why do I want more? Why do I want anything else? Like, what is it that I'm really chasing in the sense of materially or financially, or like what like I already feel like I'm living my dream life. Yeah, like I already feel like I won the lottery. I feel like like this is a very good enough lifestyle for me. I do not need anything more than what I have today. And so my goal is with being okay with where I'm at and not feeling like I'm quote unquote like giving up or I'm not doing my best or pushing myself hard enough. I feel like I'm happy with where I am. And this really shifted for me also because I was watching this Gordon Ramsay documentary, and he obviously is a world-renowned chef, very accomplished, very seasoned, financially quite wealthy, has multiple children, and he has a really young son, probably like six or seven. And what I thought was so interesting is in this documentary, he was opening up his most ambitious project, his most ambitious restaurant. And this is a person that has nothing left to prove. Like everyone already believes he's an amazing chef. He's gotten every accolade and award and Michelin star. Like, there's not there's nothing. And and in the show, he was kept referencing this legacy. And in my head, I'm going, well, Gord, like, if I was talking to Gordon Ramsay, like you already have this legacy. Like, I don't really know who's telling you that you're not doing a good job. But like, and it's like for me, not that I felt bad, but I I felt like if I was in that position, something that came up in the show multiple times is how hard it was for him to travel so much of the year and be away from his young son and his partner and his other children. And I'm asking myself, but Gordon, like, you do not have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Like, it's not like nobody's asking you to do any of this stuff. Like you are totally fine. And so I think there's like this fine line of like, you have to at some point be okay with what you have and not need to always be chasing the next thing. Yeah. And that doesn't mean you're giving up or that means you're not wanting to do good work. It's like you can be content with what you have without having to give up all the things that you worked hard to enjoy, if that makes sense. That's my goal right now. Hopefully that makes sense. That's a bit absolutely I don't know if I explained that, but that's good. It makes sense in my head, but hopefully that makes sense to y'all.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

You know, I think listening to you, and I know you, right? So being grateful for what you do have and having a little bit of being content. Yeah. And not always having to chase. And I think a lot of us, as you know, we've maybe experienced our career growth and success there. After a moment in time, you do start to realize more doesn't mean happy. Yeah. Right? It really doesn't. It just means more problems, more headaches, more things to do. Totally. Totally. Um, I've been really embarking on this sort of minimalistic approach. That's why I kicked off with having to go through my garage and get rid of stuff that's no longer relevant or needed and just creating space because when I create physical space within the place I stay, I'm creating mental space in the way I think it's it's a relationship for me. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Yeah, I think that's super fair. I would say it's underrated. I think people don't recognize how much physical clutter affects mental clutter. 100%. Like wherever you currently occupy the most, whether it's like your living room, your bedroom, your kitchen, make that place spotless. And I promise immediately you'll feel better. Yeah. Like it's like this weird thing that I didn't really understand until I left home. But like my mental health is directly related to how many dishes are in my sink at any given time. Like if I leave the house and I know there's even a plate, or like it's I I never thought I would be that person. I promise y'all, like, can I give you an analogy? Sure. It's like your dinner plate.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Yep. In order to add more food to your plate, something has to come off when it's full. Yes. And that's kind of how I see my physical space when it's cluttered is my plate is already full. And in order for me to do or bring anything new into that space, I need to get rid of something off my plate.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Yep. You got to eat it or you gotta throw it out. 100%. There's your only two options. If you let it sit there, not good. It's gonna go bad. It's gonna be gross. Yeah. And you know, I think a lot of people underrate that.