Ethics, trust & the future of the NDIS, with Ward Sheehan (Eps. 3)

What does ethical practice look like in the NDIS?

In this episode of NDIS in the Garden, Matt sits down with Ward Sheehan, founder of Ethical Tick and a veteran of the disability and aged care sectors with more than 30 years of experience.

Together, they explore the growing tension between business growth and ethical service delivery, the rise of transactional relationships in the sector, and why trust remains one of the most valuable currencies in disability support.

Ward shares the experiences that led him to create Ethical Tick, why he refuses to promise referrals, and what he believes participants, families, and support coordinators should look for beyond registration and compliance.

The conversation dives into provider culture, accountability, leadership, and the latest NDIS reforms. Matt and Ward also tackle a philosophical question that sits at the heart of the sector: do ethical people create good systems, or do good systems create ethical people?

Ward opens up about his father's battle with Motor Neurone Disease, the challenge of running 3,650 kilometres in 12 months to raise awareness and funds, and why every Ethical Tick membership contributes to the fight against MND.

This is a conversation about values, integrity, and what it means to do the right thing when nobody's watching.

Find out more about Ethical Tick:

https://ethicaltick.au/

Matt and his team at Steppr offer 'Weirdly Different' Positive Behaviour Support. Find his team at www.steppr.com.au

Thanks for watching!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Let's get back to nature. Welcome to the NDIS in the garden podcast with your host, Matt Sevier. All right, welcome back to the NDIS in the Garden podcast. I'm joined with Ward Shann today from Ethical Tick. Uh Ward, uh it's fantastic to have you here today. I I had the privilege of you know hanging out with you over in uh Surface Paradise recently at the Level Up Summit. For anyone listening, yeah, Ward's an amazing bloke. Uh his business is Ethical Tick. So yeah, welcome, Ward.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Thanks, mate. Thanks for having me in. It was so good to meet you in the flesh too, mate. Like we've we've caught up online so many times, and and you only see the the person like this. But it's really good to actually catch up and have had that face-to-face conversation as well. So Yeah, yeah, no, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Well, Ward, you've spent over 30 years across disability and aged care. And then that's then then you launched into Ethical Tick. What were you seeing in the sector that made you think, like, bloody oath, this needs to exist?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Well, starting off in in an institution in Canberra, working with a couple of hundred people living in a in one big location was just normal back then. And then everyone moved into group homes and shared accommodation, and it's just progressively got better and better. And probably in the last three to five years, I've seen the industry really change from being a person-centered environment to something that's more the person fits our needs because their budget does, not because we're the right service for them. So what I was seeing more of was more about let's get as many people in the door as we can for that financial boost. And it was less about whether or not we can meet those support needs for that individual. So that's where the shift changed for me. And uh working alongside a provider that was not very ethical made me really question uh where I I wanted to be in the sector. And and no one was really talking about ethics in business. It was all about business growth and and and that sort of thing. So I really wanted to change the mindset of growing ethically, not just growing a business.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. And I I think like you're the you're the first person, you know, like while I've had my business running, first person, first business that focuses on ethics. And it's a really yeah, it's a really needed thing in this space. Uh because it's like, how do we how do we know who are the good ones and who are the fraudulent ones, you know? So your what website mentions about the rise in uh unethical practices where people are being treated like financial track transactions or commodities rather than people. And mate, I totally agree. So at what point over the changes in NDIS did you first start noticing that shift?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

It was probably about five years ago when I started to get up into the higher levels of management and just seeing what people were doing in the background of businesses. And it really they portrayed it as working as a family-friendly environment or we work really well together, and we're very supportive of everybody. But when you get up to that next level, you really got to see a lot of the values behind it, and and to see businesses that work in the ethical framework and the ones that are doing the dodgy. And when I was working with the ones that were doing the dodgy, mate, I wasn't there along. I I just couldn't live with myself with with how it was being operated and and what was going on in the sector and how they were getting referrals. Like it was people were paying people for referrals, they were they were giving people incentives to to get a referral through. And yeah, then I got into the support coordination space and made everybody became my best friend.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah, because everyone wants a referral, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

They wanted a referral. And the the thing with that was it was all transactional, it wasn't, it wasn't really a a good friendship. Don't get me wrong, I met some really uh awesome people out of that space as a support coordinator. And I've maintained a lot of connections through that as well. But there was a lot of people went, so I finished the support coordination. That was the the time that the the text messages stopped and the the the coffees and the everything stopped. So yeah, yeah. It was quite interesting to see.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, and something really cool I saw on your website is that you you say we don't promise referrals. And to me that's that's unusually honest in this space as well. So why did you decide to say that like up front?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

There's there's so many marketing tools out there for businesses, and the thing is that some of them do promise a referral every month. And my view is how can I promise you the perfect participant for you in the perfect location every month with a perfect budget? I can't. And and the thing for that is why promise something that I can't deliver on?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

And and if I get that one referral through, I might be sending it to 30 people, even though it's not the right business for them to be sent to. So what I'm doing is I'm I'm looking at how I can support people to grow within their niche market. And for me, that's what it's all about. So if I take a lot of time to find out what people do in the sector and do it differently, and how they work with different people. So it's all about finding that that niche. So you can if you get a referral through the door and and you don't work with uh pediatric up until the age of six, you know that uh ward down the street does he he works with them really well, so you can support someone to go to them instead of going, yeah, yeah, we'll work with you, even though it's not the best fit for us, and we'll we'll see how long it lasts.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah. And even in my experience, you know, um I've come across some some consultancy agencies and stuff like that that have said, hey, look, you pay us a certain amount, we'll cold email every everyone that we know. But then it it's like, do I want that? Do I want to be known as you know the person that you know does business that way? Yeah. So yeah. No, it's it's I think that that's really great. And you've said before that um if we could move to discussing like you know registration, like providers getting registered. You've said before that being registered doesn't automatically mean a provider is ethical. So what do you think that people should look beyond registration?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Look, don't get me wrong, I believe in there should be some form of registration. How that looks, I'm not really sure because the system's been set up for non-registered and registered providers. And with that, we've only got what about six percent of the whole NDIS space that's registered. So we've got 94% out there that are unregistered. Doesn't mean that the safeguards are there, because you look at what happened with Cocoon.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

People were notified at four o'clock on the Friday afternoon that they were no longer going to receive supports. Yep. And the whole world fell apart for a lot of people. So there are no safeguards in place for that. Even though the NDOS put it in place for a long period of time to say that this was your banning date, there was no no follow-up from the NDIS to say, have you got a place for war to go to by this date?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, yeah. That's it's shocking. Hey, and like I I guess in that in that note, like because I notice you have uh on on your website, so you can withdraw approval from providers, like say if you know you've you've approved providers with ethical tick, what would make you say, no, we can't stand behind this provider anymore? I know I saw one one of the um listed, you know, unlisted providers, you know, made some some slurs online and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

But yeah, yeah. So the thing for me is uh yeah, as you know, um I believe in in strong ethics in business. And and pretty much if you don't align with what our values are, I don't just take you off straight away. I don't just go, right, sorry Matt, you're no longer part of the team. I'm I'm gonna beat you off and you you are unlisted.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

We work through the process. We I have a conversation with the the business owner about what what the issues are, and if we can't rectify it, then we're part of the company. But also, too, for me, I don't want people out there to tarnish the the brand of ethical tick. If they're not doing the right thing, then that's I need to actually say that they're not part of me anymore because they might still be using the logo, they still might be saying they're part of the ethical tick community because I have promoted them in the past. So I just want to make sure that that line's clear that they're no longer part of the tick.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, absolutely. And there's obviously you know, like a lot of there's a lot changing in the NDIS at the moment. So we're hearing about tighter reassessment criteria, funding rollovers, ending mandatory registration, expanding, more digital oversight. Don't know how that would work, you know, seeing as NDIS databases are like playing snake two on a bloody Nokia. But exactly, yeah, there's there's a lot going on right now. Yeah, yeah. And there's in general like a much heavier focus on fraud present uh prevention and and compliance. So a lot of people are nervous sort of about what that means, and I'm curious about the ethical side of it. So do you think these reforms will gen genuinely push the sector towards like better integrity and accountability, or is there a risk that providers just become better looking, compliant, you know, on paper while the deeper cultural problems stay the same?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I sort of agree with both. So there will be some things that will be tightened up that will stop the the fraudulent activities, the the claiming, overclaiming, all that sort of thing. But it that may not stop the culture of a business on how they provide supports and how they go about getting referrals and and all that sort of thing. So there'll be certain things that tighten up and improve the sector, but in regards to ethics, it's more about how you operate as a as a business in the community. Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

And I'll uh I I've got a curveball for you. So I love I love to I love talking about ethics, right? So this one's a philosophical one. Uh but yeah, Plato's Republic, uh, you know, there's there's uh the ring of Gaiges which asks whether someone would still act morally if they could never be caught. So in a heavily funded system like NDIS, where oversight can sometimes lag behind behaviour, do you think that dilemma becomes really real?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Look, I think that sometimes it's actually occurring now. I I put a complaint in about a business and it took over six months for me to be contacted for the initial contact in regard to the complaint. And my understanding is once a complaint's raised, the business is notified. And what will happen then, if someone's operating unethically or fraudulently, they've got time to actually close that business down, start a new business up with a different director, transfer all the participants and everything across to them, and by the time that the NDIA come through and and start talking about the complaint, they'll say, Oh, sorry, Wards Home Service no longer exists. We've we've closed shop, we've we've got out of the space. Oh, but you're working for gyms and home services now. Oh yeah, yeah. Well that's that's someone else's company. I'm just working for them. Different ABN and you know, different types of different ABN, different ACM, different entity, all that sort of stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, yeah. So Yeah, it's it it like we're registered, you know. And what's what's the gap between registration? I think it's like a year and a half or something. Sorry, yeah. It's about a year and a half. So for us, yeah, it would be so easy to do that, even though we're registered, we could take all the funding, never go to appointments and then just change our ABN. But I'm obviously never gonna do that. Yeah, but you can see how easy it is for people to act unethically and fraudulent. Yeah, yeah. Because I want to get to the end of my life and think, yeah, mate, you've done a good job, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, exactly, and exactly right. That's the thing. And and you you know, being in the Allied Health Space, you've got your own board that you need to report to in regard to your registrations and and all that sort of stuff, not not associated with the NDIA. And you've got your your code of conduct and and all that sort of stuff with them, and you have to provide evidence to say that you've been doing extra study and curricula and personal development and all that sort of stuff throughout the year. Yeah. In the NDIS world, you just pay a bit of money and you you can be registered.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah. Well, off the back of that, do you do you think that systems create ethical behaviour or do you do do ethical people create good systems?

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Look, ethical people create good systems. You'll always find someone that can work around it. Yeah. And and look, I love Henry Ford as a as a businessman, and he he he said, you I always put the laziest person on the the toughest job because they'll find a way to do it quicker. I love it. And and I suppose that works in the same way that if you want someone to find a fraudulent way of doing it, they obviously will. So no matter what's put in place, they'll work it find a way around it. So it really comes down to the individual that you're working with.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yeah, yeah. Changing it up a little bit, so your charity pledge with fight MNDs, um, what have you? Yeah. Yeah, you got the beanie, yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's that's quite personal for you, right? Like your dad was diagnosed with MND in 2023, and you ch you challenge yourself to a 3,650 kilometers. I think that was a run in 12 months.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah, yeah. So you've tied you've now tied every new or or renewed ethical tick membership to 100 donation to fight MND. MND. Is yeah, is is a part of what you look for in providers their propensity to give back in some way or another?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Look, generally, when I have I I catch up with people for a virtual coffee and have a chat to them about and find out what what they're doing. Generally, during that conversation, a lot of information comes out, and and I remember our conversation when we first spoke that most people generally do a lot of free work for people. Whether or not that's doing a rock for it. And you you see the people that go the extra mile, and you see the people that are just wanting to get a quick referral out of out of the business. And I think that's why also too, I really promote that we don't promise referrals.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Because then I don't attract the wrong people that are are just in the place for a referral. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah, yeah. And uh on a side note, how was that run?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Mate, it was it was good and it was bad as well. Like there was there's I still remember there was one day it was absolutely teeming with rain, and I was off to see mum and dad, and I I went for a run at three or three or four o'clock in the morning because we had a six o'clock flight in the dark. But I I said to myself that my dad didn't have uh a break from his matineural disease. So I didn't take a break from the running for that period of time. So yeah, so I I got up, rained hail or shine, and just just ran every day.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

So that's awesome. Such a such a testament to your character, mate. Like that's that's really cool. Oh thank you.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, yeah. So but I'll tell you what, I've I've sort of lost the love for running at the moment. It's sort of ever since I've stopped that that quest, it's been really difficult to get out back out there and do it again.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Even though I've just loved running, it's just I think the emotional side of things seeing dad passed almost 12 months ago. So it's just been really tough to get get back into it. But I'm sure we'll get there one day.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

I'm sorry to hear that. But it's also amazing that you know you are you do have that charity, you know, the funding coming from the referrals in ethical tick, like it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I love love giving I love giving to him because um they gave dad so much equipment to help him stay at home, and which he did, he was able to stay home for the the 27 months that that he was there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Well, if if someone listened to this, right, and uh say they're starting their journey in this space and they wanted to build their business foundations ethically, what would the first thing you think that they should maybe focus on?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

See why they got into the business to start with. To to see what what their why is, what why they're doing it, why they decided to go into the NGO space. Because you know what, it's an absolute nightmare of an industry. It's always in the news about absolutely terrible things. You have so many people talking about um compliance breaches, you've got a long, long list of providers that have been banned for forever and a day. Yeah, you've got bikey gangs that are they're committing fraud through the system, you've got all this stuff going on, so why would you want to do it?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

This is the thing. And you've got to find the why, you've got to find your reason behind it, you've got to find your niche as well. So you can't just say, look up, I work in Silk hasn't in home supports, because every second person does that. You've got to find out what you're what you really specialise in.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah. And it's like if if you're in this sector for money, you're probably not in the right business.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Well, they say two percent profit margin, you're not gonna get much up to two percent.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

No, no, it's it's people first, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah, exactly. Well, where can we find you? Mate, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm I'm pretty active on there, or you can find me at ethicaltech.au.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Awesome. Ward, it's been a pleasure talking to you. You're an absolute legend. Yeah, it was fantastic to meet you over East. Uh cool, thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Mate, it was an absolute pleasure and great to catch up with you and thanks for having me on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

All right, cheers. Thank you. Cheers, mate.