The Third Answer
The Third Answer explores the space between reaction and understanding. Through reflections on personal experiences and conversations about mental health, performance, culture, sports, and everyday life, each episode moves beyond quick answers to uncover the deeper insights that shape how we think, grow, and live.
Hosted by Dr. Ibn Sharif Shakoor, LPC, a licensed professional counselor, educator, and creative, the podcast draws on both professional expertise and lived experience to examine the intersection of culture, mental health, performance, and personal growth. The Third Answer invites listeners to slow down, think more deeply, and discover perspectives that challenge assumptions and inspire meaningful change.
The Third Answer
The Lewis Spears Episode
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Lewis Spears joins me for an honest conversation on leadership, purpose, and the experiences that shape who we become. Together, we explore growth, perspective, and the value of doing the inner work.
So it's Evan Sharif Shakor, Lewis Spears.
SPEAKER_02Lewis Spears, how are you, sir?
SPEAKER_01What's up, man?
SPEAKER_02Good.
SPEAKER_01This interview might be a little biased, you know what I mean? Because I know you a little bit. Um, but it's not a political interview. It's a mental health educational interview, which gives people insight on who you are, your experiences, completely separate from what's going on now.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Uh only it only helps to uh further get people to understand who Lewis Spears is. So first off, as a as a uh black man to black man, as a human being to a human being, how you feel right now mentally.
SPEAKER_02Uh man, uh it's a lot. Uh as like just managing it, managing how you say it? Managing, managing it all, right? Uh yeah, it's a lot trying to manage everything, man. Um and and in general, I feel like the the world is on my shoulder in general. Um not in a way that it provides pressure genu gener generally, um but in a way that's like, yeah, I got things to do. But at this point, it's a it's a lot more pressure, man. A lot more pressure. A lot more pressure. Um I I went to a uh a gathering and this older gentleman he grabbed me by my shoulder. He said, Don't embarrass us. He was like, Don't embarrass us, man. And I'm like, I just understood it, right? Yeah, yeah. And uh I don't I don't have any intentions on right embarrassing anybody, whatever, you know. And and in fact, like that's not the first group of people I think about when I think about embarrassing, embarrassing someone, right? I'm like, I I don't I think about God first, I think about my family second, right? Like, um, and me and and then my young men for my uh organization, and then you know, I think about like the community at large, right? Yeah, but yeah, it's it's it's a lot. It's a lot.
SPEAKER_01I mean, just from a uh literal standpoint, just the multiple roles that most of us have, yeah. Um you're a father, you're a husband, right, you're a mentor, yeah. Um on top of that, yeah, yeah. You're accessible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01What type of um stress does having that type of accessibility to you have? Like, does it, you know, does it affect you?
SPEAKER_02Uh it ebbs and flows. So it it affects it affects me, but it ebbs and flows. So certain days uh I don't want to have certain types of conversations, or I don't want certain certain people to have access to me for you know for whatever reason. Uh and then other days I'm like, let me just hurry up and get this over with, right? Um and there are several conversations or uh certain um connections where I'm very upfront uh about like the time that I have. I will I will begin the phone call or the exchange, hey, listen, I got 30 minutes, or I got 20 minutes, uh, you got me full throttle, I won't check my phone, I won't.
SPEAKER_01Let me put that in my notes.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Right. I still I start with that. And uh uh just so that we're clear going in. And most people are like, oh yeah, no, no, that's good. That's all I need, right? Because they they know we we we're gonna shoot the breeze, but it's really like what's the goal? We got what's the intended goal, let's hit it and keep it moving.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Um for me, I don't really like politics, or I'm not not into it, but I mean, because I understand that it's more it's bigger than one person. Right. It's a structure, it takes multiple people to you know create change. Yeah. But I can always say I can vouch for you because I saw you do the quote unquote groundwork. Yeah. Because you can't really when you when you rely on your genuine true self, I mean, it's gonna show.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm gonna take you back, and I know you remember this. This is for everyone else.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01When I'm 35 now, I think I was about 27 or 28.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it was the first time I started having panic attacks. Right, right. And I never I never knew heard of that. What the hell is a panic attack? Right, right, right. And something told me to say it to you.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And you were like, yeah, like, like, this is normal. And I was like, what? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02I remember that.
SPEAKER_01But you gave me great advice, and you helped me, without even knowing, navigate to get to the information, and I didn't feel alone.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01You know, you didn't know you were gonna run for mayor probably, you know, down the line. Yeah. But those uh interactions that you have with people like me, with the people in the community, is what I hear people talking about the most. Wow. Um, what is how does that make you feel hearing that?
SPEAKER_02So so uh on on a every any given day, right, I'm overwhelmed with uh wanting to be the best version of myself. Um Glenn Cunningham speaks about uh great man. Yo, right, right, appreciate it. Uh he said uh in in a race, right, running for whatever offer office is is the man versus himself, the harshest of opponents, right? So it's really about like being the best version of myself, right? Um but being the best version of myself, um, part of that is like genuinely being concerned for others, right? Like I want people to do well. Uh when when so we talk about this on on off-screen, we talk about like haters and things like that. I I really can't relate because essentially, um, even if there was a job that I won it and someone else got it, and I think that they were awesome, like I'm I'm high fiving them. I mean, I'm just as excited for them. You know what I mean? And so uh I genuinely want people to win. Um, and right now it's really just about yo, equipping myself with the knowledge, right? And just ensuring that I'm not gonna stare people in the wrong in the wrong direction, man. Um and so I if if if there's pressure, um, that's where I I feel it the most.
SPEAKER_01I mean, one thing I think we have to give ourselves credit for and being kind to ourselves is that, you know, growing up in the environment that we grew up, literally for Jersey City, growing up, you booker T, me on the hill, I don't know why I say Greenville now, this is that's new to me.
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_01But sometimes our confidence is stripped from us because of our environment and the trauma that we experience.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01You be you having to step up and run for office, how are you navigating that hurt little boy that we've talked about off camera before, and being able to fill that role and believe in yourself? Has it been a struggle? Elaborate on it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's real. So one one thing that I've uh I I need to get better at, um, but like what what I'm doing now is like doing videos to talk about like my experiences throughout the whole process, right? Therapeutic. Uh it's very therapeutic, and I and I could look back at it and all that good stuff. But uh uh it's tough, right? Because I've had people say to me, Yo, who do you think you are? Right? Like you you you don't have the potential to do something like this, right?
SPEAKER_01Uh so it's reconfirming, my therapist told me this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's like reconfirming what your trauma traumatic situations already told you.
SPEAKER_02Exactly, right? And then uh what what what I do right now, man, and I'm very strategic about this, I surround myself around uh like government-minded people who believe in what I believe in in terms of uh, you know, the way things should be, right? Like this very progressive, that's what they label it. I don't think it's uh progressive at all. I just think it's uh being uh human, being kind, being conscious of like others in the world, right? Um so I don't necessarily look at it as progressive more than I look at it as uh being being uh uh sensitive to everybody in the ecosystem and not just the ones who have the wealth or the power, right? Um uh and so when I think about like what they say, right? Um the people who I surround myself around, they they they speak um louder than those people at this point. I remember when I was young, I would like mull over all of the negative things that folks would say to me, right? Like being being from the projects, it wasn't like you knew that you were poor, you just somehow felt insignificant at times, or a lot of times, right? Like you you knew that there was lack, but you didn't understand like how how much lack, right? Or where the lack was. But you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01You didn't have to stand it to compare it to.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. And and we had TV, right? And but we always just thought that that's that was an esoteric idea, we could never reach it. Exactly. And so I I think from then, right, like people told me not to go to Harvard, right? And I I put I did it, right? Um, someone told me that like my wife was too good for me, right? But I bagged her, you know what I'm saying? Right? It's so yo, I had yo, I have to, right? Because at the end of the day, she she she's holding me down in this at this point, right? Because like I'm I come home getting beat up, tired, whatever, and she's like, yo, babe, your your dinner is here, right? So it's like uh people have told me in the past what I couldn't do. Um and for some reason I've always had the will to just do it. And it's not really to prove them wrong or right, right? It's just to say, well, I know my value, and this is where I this is where I'm gonna exactly, this is where I'm gonna choose to go.
SPEAKER_01I always say that that's uh it's just like a higher, whatever a person's faith, religion, spirituality. I feel like that's a divine thing.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Because a lot of times people ask me, how did you do it? I'm I I don't know. Right. You know, this was just innate. It was just in me.
SPEAKER_02Um the the other thing too, right? It's in you, but there are times where you just have to step out, right? Where you you're not sure of the next step, or you're not sure of uh where you're gonna get all the funds from or whatever, right? You're you're unsure about the the entire road, but you just take a leap of faith. You do it trembling, you do it unsure, you do it um nervous, uh all of that, all of that. Um, but you still do it. And so folks have to know that, like you could do it, bro. You can do it. You can do it. And even if you're scared, do it. Absolutely, right? Because who who's living with with regrets like that? You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01I had a close friend say to me, bro, I've never seen you scared before. And I'm like, I ha I experience fear, but I do it anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um trauma can have you build tolerance a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um but on to the next thing. I don't, I know you're a busy man, I can't keep you too long. But this is a question I'm I ask most brothers. Uh-huh. And I'm gonna continue as I do more interviews. When was the last time you cried and why?
SPEAKER_02So crazy, man. So I still have uh uh uh adverse uh uh uh experience for crying still, right? Um so you don't cry much? I I I don't know if I really know how to. And that that's real. Like, if I think tears are about to come out, I'll I'll s I'll either laugh or do something else to like, you know, cut to distract myself, right? Um and uh, yo, it's I don't know how healthy it is. I mean, I I found other ways, healthy ways to write, like manage stress or deal with trauma and all that, but in terms of crying, it's been a while. It's been a a long time. A really long time. I wish sometimes I could.
SPEAKER_01Do you well let me rephrase it? Do you ever take time, and this might not be relevant to you to your uh your your journey, but do you ever feel like you have to take time to feel sad or to mourn or maybe you're not struggling with anything related to that, but do you ever really have to take time to reflect and just grieve?
SPEAKER_02Yo, so the the reality is that we're taught to, you know what I mean, like get over stuff. Yeah, yeah. But through counseling, I realize that um I I can sit in that, yeah. Um I haven't been able to do it since the the the campaign. There's a lot going on, yeah. Yeah, uh, but I I I I I am uh going to use the time afterwards, right? To take some time to myself and do just that, man. Um and and it's it's not necessarily like win or lose grieving, right? It's really like the process, right? And like the hurt, the hurt, the hurting uh things that people say to me that I think I brush off. But like when I wake up is echoing in my head, right? Exactly. Or or how uh a person slams the door in my face, right? Even though I've gotten a lot of great, I got more positive than negatives, but somehow those negative things are still echoing in my head, right? And so like I'm gonna take time to do that. But I'm I'm intentional about uh taking that time to like just uh sit in my sit in my mess.
SPEAKER_01Your mess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And just to give context to to the listeners, um, you know, I do I try to discuss a lot of um inner child work. So usually when I'm talking about grief, uh I mean in a literal sense, like if you lost a parent like I did, that that's one thing. But a lot of times I understand like when we were children, we were hurt.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I know for me, I suppressed a lot of it because I had I didn't have the time, like you said, to to mourn because uh crying don't pay the bills, crying don't achieve goals in our minds anyway.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01So sometimes uh I feel like I do have to give myself that process that to be sad because I didn't I wasn't allowed to be sad when when I really needed to be. You know, because I felt like anywhere at the time that if I was sad, I wouldn't have been able to maneuver and navigate the trauma.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Right. Uh I and I I gotta mentee now who feels like if he's sad, then he's gonna break down, right? So he chooses not to even go there because that was once me, right, back in the day. But uh I learned that uh it it never really leaves you, it just turns into something else. Something else. Right. It manifests itself in something else. So you you might want to be the best version of a dad, right, for your children. But because you didn't deal with your childhood trauma, it turn it it it re- uh it re uh forms itself in in the lives of your children. Yeah right? Or you know, or how you interact with them or whatever, right? And so those are the roadblocks that stops you from being the roadblocks that stop you from being the best version of yourself.
SPEAKER_01Last question. Um Then we'll leave on a positive note after this. As a child, what was the most traumatic experience that comes to mind when, you know, like you're in therapy, the thing that probably hovers over you the most the context is that we've talked before. Yeah. But what is the thing that sticks out in your mind as traumatic for you growing up?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, so that's a very hard question because as soon as you said that, like seven things just went went through my head. Uh but I remember being about uh uh 11, uh 12, and uh my my mom and my stepdad were fighting, right? And uh my mom is a strong woman, right? Um and he was very abusive to her growing up. Um and I remember like uh getting in between them to like try to stop him and like the rage that he looked at me with, right? Like, like I thought that he was legit gonna kill her and me at that point, right? Because I got in between them and he looked at me um in a in a crazy way. And uh like you can still see it now. I can still see, I could feel that, right? I could hear it, right? I could I know what it smelled like. You know what I mean? Like so, so uh, yeah, man. And so I'm very protective of the people I love, man. Gotcha. Like, you can't say whatever, even saying something to like my children or like my wife or whatever, or my friends for that matter, or you can't say nothing around my friend about me, I'm about my friends around me. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01You're gonna go into defense immediately.
SPEAKER_02Automatically. Because I I I'm I I the time that I could have or I thought I should have, I couldn't. Yeah. Right? I I couldn't do anything with that, right? And so like I'm very uh sensitive to that.
SPEAKER_01Look up Steven Jackson. You know Steven Jackson? He has all the smoke podcasts with Matt Barnes.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, yeah, I I've seen him, yeah.
SPEAKER_01He talks about his brother, his brother was killed, I believe, in Texas somehow, and he couldn't help him. However, the incident went down, he couldn't get to him. And he made it to the NBA, and then he started to have a reputation as a quote-unquote thug, even though people didn't know his story, and he was just like he had he got into a big fight, the malice at the palace in the NBA, where like a fan hit one of his teammates and he defended him. And he always went back to how he was hurt because his brother got killed and he was never able to defend him. So it was very what you just said was very reminiscent of that.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, man. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01But on a positive note, I just want people to understand that you know anybody can be a politician, right? Anybody can be in a position of power, absolutely, whatever authority. But to me, it's the symbolic, the symbolism in the journey of you coming from Booker T, going to Harvard, navigating traumatic situations like that, and getting where you are now is probably bigger than you even becoming a mayor or any any position ever. Right. That journey itself is the one that no one can take from you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely, man. And I I think I do a really good job at like I like that you tell yourself you do it.
SPEAKER_01You we gotta be kind of like that. That's not narcissistic.
SPEAKER_02That's you though, that's true, that's true. Yeah, I I think I do a really good job at like uh putting out to the world how like how I I uh the great parts of my life, right? Yeah. I I would like to do a better job at showing uh how I think about solving problems and issues, right? Um because ultimately um they they see like the the glitz and the glamour and they think celebrity, right? Or popular. But really, um I've I've been able it's it's a lot of ingenuity. Yeah, it's in genuine, right? It's it's is it's a lot of systemic things, right? Where I I've had conversations with you, like, listen, I'm about to do this, and then after that, I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna move over here and I'm gonna do that. It's it's very strategic, right? And so uh I I I'm gonna start showing that that side of me more uh so that folks will know that uh that there's a system there. And I need other people to emulate that, right? 100%.
SPEAKER_01Um and so I I realize that genius in navigating trauma. That's right. Because I always say if I didn't have the trauma that I had, I'd probably be on Mars working for NASA. Yeah, right. NASA. But I had to use my genius to navigate the things that were pressed upon us.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So that ingenuity that you that you have, you navigated the trauma.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Now you're gonna use it and show the world, like you said, that you can problem solve. And because you've already problem solved at the highest level. I don't care what nobody says.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, man. Appreciate that. Appreciate that. And I at the end of the day, it's really not about it's not about the position, right? It really isn't, right? It's more about uh the ability to make decisions on the behalf of folks who can't otherwise, right? And being in a position um to to really create policy and and and change uh the trajectory of people's lives so that they don't have to go through what I went through. And that that's the goal, man. Absolutely that that's that's my chief goal. And so whether it's the mayor's position, if I get it now or not, I'll probably go again, right? Or if it's any other thing that will affect change in a major way, that's that's what we're doing, man. Because the goal here is not to create another generation that experience what we experience.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Uh, before I close out this bias interview, um anything you want to tell the uh the voters, the the world, um, young people before you close out.
SPEAKER_02So so when I when I think about this journey, man, um I'm gonna use this analogy that I heard T.D. Jakes uh use. T.D.
SPEAKER_01Jakes is dope.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, man. This one dope concept that I that that I that I'm walking with, right? So in general, when we think about the restaurant, right? We when we go into any restaurant, you know, it's clean, right? Is is the tables are wiped down, uh, you know, depending on where you go, is like, you know, the ambiance is lit, the the chandeliers, all that good stuff, right? Um, but then when you go into the kitchen, I don't care what kitchen you go to, right? Uh it's it's a mess back there. The greasy floors, right? It's it's noodles on the walls, right? It's like grease everywhere. Dirty sneakers. Dirty sneakers, right? You get you can't even dress a certain way going back there, right? Um, and so why why is that so important? Um, because in life, on the inside of us, right, it it feels like the kitchen a lot of times, right? And and we feel like, yo, it's I'm a mess. I, you know, I'm dirty, I got all of this going on, or whatever, right? But the reality is uh that's not what everybody else sees, right? That's not the person that you present. And so be okay with the kitchen experience, right? And and and know that like uh that that what you present to the world is the restaurant, right? And that no one sees the kitchen. I I don't we don't see a lot of the kitchens, right? Well, he said it in a more eloquent way, but I just like broke it down to in a very simple app. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, man, absolutely. And even with systems, right? Like when I started running for mayor, I'm like, yo, my back office is crazy right now. And then uh when we put on events, people are like, yo, it's one of the best events we ever had. Meanwhile, I'm I'm texting this person with screaming at this person, right? So that's the kitchen experience, and just know that like the restaurant and the kitchen are two different things, even though you know, essentially uh you prepare for the restaurant in the kitchen. You know what I mean? So that's what we're doing right now.
SPEAKER_01That's dope, man.
