People Pleasing & Boundaries | Elevate Within Roundtable

Your boss emails you at midnight. Before you've even decided whether it can wait, you've already answered it. Why?

In this episode of the Architecture of Reinvention Roundtable, host Sandy Davis and co-host Claudia Cuevas, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, go deeper into the themes that emerged from Jenny Catalano's episode, exploring people pleasing not as a personality flaw, but as a survival mechanism many high-achieving women learned young and have never stopped using. 

Claudia explains why the nervous system often can't distinguish between a stressful work deadline and a childhood threat, and what that means for anyone who feels disproportionate panic over an after-hours email or a demanding client. Sandy and Claudia discuss what a real boundary actually looks like, the difference between what Claudia calls little T trauma and big T trauma, and why even a single comment from a first grade teacher can quietly shape someone's relationship with their own intelligence for decades. 

They close with a practical, repeatable tool: the energy audit. A daily check-in to determine whether you're saying yes because it aligns with you, or because you're afraid of being disliked.

What You Will Hear in This Episode

Why burnout is about identity, not just exhaustion.

People pleasing reframed as a survival skill to own, not eliminate.

What a real boundary is, and why most people define it incorrectly.

The difference between little T trauma and big T trauma, and why both shape adult behavior.

A practical daily tool - the energy audit for reclaiming your yes.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I I like I said, I had experienced a lot of childhood trauma, a lot of which I was very well aware of, although it took me many, many years to realize that it was trauma because we, you know, as many of you know, we we don't always see what we're living in as something wrong. We don't know what's wrong, we don't know that it's not normal or okay. And as I got older, I saw more and more of what was wrong with that scenario. But there was also a piece of what was happening in my childhood that wasn't that hadn't surfaced for me. And it was starting to come up. And that just kind of rocked me to my core. And that coupled with what I'd already experienced, I was in a lot of therapy, a lot of talk therapy, which was helpful because it helped me piece the puzzle together. It helped me understand some of my behaviors and why they responded to things the way I did and why things affected me the way that they did, and why I felt so driven and so intent on achieving perfection.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Each week, I'm joined by my co-host Claudia Cuevas, licensed marriage and family therapist, as we explore the stories, lessons, and emotional realities behind transformation. Because reinvention isn't just about changing our circumstances, it's about understanding yourself. It's about healing, it's about letting go of who you thought you had to be, so you can become who you were always meant to be. Whether you're navigating burnout, grief, identity shifts, career transitions, entrepreneurships, caregiving, or simply asking yourself, what's next? You are not alone. So take a breath, pull up a chair, and join us at the table.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

This is elevate within. Hey Claudia, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

It's going.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Life is life in.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

I'm excited because we're going to get into this week's episode of the architecture of reinvention. We heard the story of Jenny Cantalano. So today, Claudia and I are going to take a deeper look at what some of the themes that emerge from Jenny's story and exploring what they can teach us about trauma, emotional healing, and the process of coming home to ourselves. So let's dive in. Claudia. What would you say to the women listening who is exhausted from holding it all together and doesn't even know where to begin?

SPEAKER_04 2:47

You know, um, burnout is such a broad topic, right? And so as we're going to be listening to some of these episodes and we're in no way analyzing or therapy anybody or criticizing anybody, we're just going to kind of take a little bit and kind of expand from there, right? So one of the things that I I would want to know is, you know, at what point does burnout touch your identity, right? So are we overthinking, overworking? Is there some perfectionism? Are we risk taking? Um, are we avoiding? Are we people pleasing, right? And so really we can kind of break down because it's burnout is just it's not just exhaustion. It's really about the identity that we take on and how that's manifesting into burnout, right? And so we can, you know, we can touch into just people pleasing and kind of like how that kind of will manifest depending on on how you kind of take on some of those things. And not and some people won't even notice it.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I know I didn't. Um, you know, for a fact for myself, you know, working in corporate America, you know, with the roles that you have, especially for myself being in operations, you have to be a people pleaser. Like that is your role, not just building out the structures, um, and you know, help scaling the business, but you have to please everybody, you have to take care of everybody. Um, whether it's from like the brokers that I work with or the staff, keeping them motivated, keeping them like, hey, we want to keep them here to do the work. Um, so I think that to me is like an identity. You know, and being a people pleaser at work. Also in the commun in my community, you know, being a New Yorker, moving to Southern California, because it's like two different worlds. So, you know, I had to kind of hide a bit of the New York aggressive self and be more um accommodating, more approachable. So I had to learn how to please the folks in my neighborhood. Yeah. And it gets exhausting. Sometimes I didn't realize I was doing it. There's other times where you do, and then you don't realize that ends up becoming a habit, a bad habit.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

And it's especially if it's not really part of your personality type, right? Like you didn't grow up being a people pleaser and that wasn't um highly rewarded when you were younger. Because a lot of times, you know, people pleasing comes because it's very highly rewarded. But there's like the split, right? Where in maybe in a high achieving kind of corporate way, you had to then adapt this new personality type. And then it becomes really creatively stifling. Um, because you're there's this like tremendous overload of having to not only please those around them, but really kind of always being able to like be three steps ahead of them. And so there's like this overworking, overachieving in order to like keep people on your team, right? In order to be able to get your message across or get your contract signed or you know, get your kids to go to school, right? Yeah. For some people, people pleasing is just just second nature. They're just able to kind of like, that's just what they grew up doing. And for others, we've had to learn to do that. And no matter what, it is a toll on your nervous system.

unknown 6:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Wouldn't that, I just thought about wouldn't that affect like especially um, you know, when I'm pitching um and closing deals for clients for the fractional COO work that I do? I realized it was like, yeah, uh, I still have to be a people pleaser, not just selling them, but then getting them to like me, getting them to trust me, like, hey, you want to hire me, and I'm gonna do whatever I can to do the people pleasing in order to win the pitch. So here's the thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 7:27

So how we work in therapy on how to reframe the people pleasing, because it really isn't about not utilizing a strength that we have. It's just part of the business, and sometimes for other people, it's part of their personality, right? And so in therapy, we want to know how can we better help you utilize this strength that when overused, not uh conscious, not intentional, will be detrimental to your to your mental health, to your wellness, right? And so we reframe, we reframe this this um people pleasing um into how can we, how can you own it so that you can better utilize it? Um and so then we do something that we call like an energy audit, right? And so you ask yourself questions like, am I doing this? If I do say yes to this, what's the purpose of that? Right. Is it taking energy away from me? Is it am I saying yes because it's something that aligns with who I am and what I'm trying to accomplish? Or am I saying yes because I feel like I might not be liked? Right. And just being able to kind of like take a step back and then kind of like take a deep breath and go, okay, what am I, why am I doing this? Because it's second nature for some people. Just saying, you know, people pleasing is just saying yes. But the the negative, right? The negative of people pleasing is that you will put other people's needs, wants, you know, everything before your own.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:12

And so we want to make sure that you're owning the people pleaser is gonna be a people pleaser. We're not gonna take that away from them. It's it's their strength, it's what got them to survive, it's what got them to achieve what they're achieving. We want them to own it and be able to really recognize how they're utilizing this. And so for me, right, I might be like, that's a no, that's a straight no. Like I would never do that, right? But for other people, it's a it's okay. Like I can say yes as long as like I'm home by seven, and that's my like, you know, my cut up.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah, you you have your boundaries. You know, I have my boundaries, and then there's sometimes where you kind of snap. You could be having a bad day or a trigger, and it's just like, yo, I really don't want to do this. And then you almost like assert yourself, like, hey, this is how it's gonna go. I'm not trying to keep like this is just a logical way to get to the other side, to get to the finish line. And you don't realize, like, hey, but when I first met this person, I was trying to do like the people pleasing, you know, identity. And as you're in the mix of it, then you're becoming back to like who your who your true self is, and they might be asking you shit that is just out of the scope, but the people pleaser will be like, oh, okay, uh, I can add it in. And then you get to a point where it's just like, no, that that doesn't make any sense. Uh-huh. We're not gonna do that. You be affirmed, and then now that person is looking at you like, well, you're pushing back. And I think for some people pleasers, they're just like, we don't want that. What's what's what's going into you?

SPEAKER_04 10:54

It's an uncomfortable feeling to disappoint someone to feel like I I'm they're gonna be mad at me. They're not gonna like me, right? And so for true people pleasers, that is the underlying kind of negative cognition that they have to keep in check all the time. But you you sent said something really important, which is boundaries. And so boundaries, right? Tell me what you think is is a boundary. You might be really versed in it. Depends on the situation. But tell me what, like typically what you think a boundary is.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

For myself, it would be you're asking me to do something that is out of the scope of who my core being is. So I'm old enough, I've experienced enough in life where it's like, no, you can get me, but it's within these parameters. Right. Now you're if you're asking me to step out of those parameters for you, no. Right. And I don't know if it's just a trust issue or it's just a no, or I'm old enough, I'm wise enough, I'm more experienced enough, where like, I'm not, I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

So for a lot of people, um, and when I have them come in in couples or they come in because they're having some work issues, most people think boundaries is what I'm I'm going to tell you what I don't want you to do. Right. And so it becomes really externalized about like if I can, if I can ex, if I if the whole world can kind of do what I want them to do, then I don't have to feel uncomfortable. So boundaries are boundaries are very much you being able to communicate what you are not comfortable with and what you won't do. What the other person does or doesn't do, it's on them. Right. And so saying, um, yeah, I'm not comfortable with you talking that way to me. So I'm going to remove myself from this conversation is a boundary. You could keep on screaming and saying and doing what you want to do, but I don't have to take it. And that is a very scary concept for people because they're the ones that have to take the action. It's easy to go, like, well, if you didn't yell at me and if you didn't do this to me, or if you, you know, didn't ask me to stay overtime all the time, you know, or call me when I'm off, uh, you know, my job. I have people who have such a hard time with, well, my boss sent me an email at 12 p.m. I have to answer.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

And I'm always like, says who? I used to hear that a lot from my staff members where they would be home having dinner, be like, oh, broker just emailed me or the broker called me.

SPEAKER_04 13:43

And it's like I used to do a I used to do trainings with some really high firm um lawyers. And um, you know, they they they treated some like heavy like immigration or different kinds of cases and stuff. But I remember I would say, like, hey, I'm gonna need you to put do not disturb on your phone from like what are you comfortable with? 11 to 6 a.m. And the face that they would make would be what what if what if I yeah, what if I get a and I said, Is it so tell me what an emergency is? Uh-huh. Like, really define what emergency is, right? So to me, it would be like life and death. Is that the type of case that you are dealing with? That it's life and death if you like if it's it's a DN, you know, D do not resuscitate kind of thing, and they'd be like, no, no, I don't have any of those. So what you're telling me is that the email that came in at midnight, you could get to it at 6, 7 a.m. and nobody would die. And they'd be like, Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

That's a normal reaction. That's a normal reaction where even working with um, especially a lot of the brokers, they did feel like it was life or death. And I would tell them like, we're not saving lives. And there were some that would put in, like, no, I'm saving uh an investor's life by you know making sure his money is spent right. Be like, give me a break. Like, we're this is not ER. But it's that built-up, and I don't know if it's built-up pressure of like, hey, I'm saving lives. Um, one question I have for you, what about those who went through childhood trauma? Like for myself, I went through that childhood trauma. Um, so I know that people pleasing was, you know, checking in with somebody, making sure, like, hey, I need to make sure this is a safe environment. I need to be able to read the room, I need to be able to read you, I need to make sure you're good. Um, we, you know, we talked about it when I had Shirley Rivera on. You know, when it comes to the people pleasing, do you find that most in women who or women and men who have gone through childhood trauma?

SPEAKER_04 16:05

Yeah. Yes, because it's a survival mechanism, right? And so unfortunately, trauma moves along with us. We do not, unless we're in some therapy and we kind of learned how to kind of uh heal our inner child and then grow up when it comes to stressful situations, we will react to minor stresses as if we were going through that trauma at whatever age we were going through. It's just how our nervous system works because it our brain doesn't know how to distinguish between, oh my gosh, I'm, you know, the boss needs me to turn in a this this report by like 10 to there's someone who's going to hurt me and I'm five years old. It doesn't know how to distinguish that. We do. We distinguish it. We tell the brain and we give it the emotional context of it. The brain only knows that feels just like it did when you were five. Yeah. So get the hell out of there. Like, let's go, right? Blood starts flowing to our limbs. We will, you know, become disassociated. Like it'll just say alert, alert, alert. And a lot of people don't know that they're reacting to their five-year-old trauma when they're in their 50s. And someone's, you know, it's stress. It's just stressful. It's not even, there's not even like any safety concern. It's just stress.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Right. Right. How do we how do we as women, because I know a lot of us go through that, and you know, how do we find our voice in it? Or what practices, how do we identify like, oh shoot, I'm people pleasing, um, I'm losing my voice. How do how do we teach women to identify? And what tips and tools would you recommend that we take to practice to slowly get out of that? Or not slowly, but get out of that.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Yeah. It's really kind of owning your trauma, like really owning it, right? Um, and there's some trauma that wasn't impactful, that impactful in your life. And some trauma is like, really, that's what I that's what I'm traumatized about when I this other stuff happened. It really is gonna depend on what age um, kind of like the majority of your trauma happened. But really owning it, identifying it, knowing how today as an adult it is impacting the way that you're communicating, the way that you're um taking on stress, what you say yes to and what you say no to, and then slowly being able to be in the now. I think that's that's the hardest thing to do is like you know, getting to your nervous system where you're able to lower, get it to go. Like this is not dangerous. We're not in danger zone, really being able to get your nervous system calm, right? So a lot of meditation, a lot of breathing. Um we even can do some like re just um re-regulating your nervous system, right? So like cold showers, uh, putting your face in like ice water when you're really feeling like I don't know what is going on.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

But there's something that I'm feeling a lot of anxiety about, and I I don't have the time to kind of go, hmm, what could it be? Like, I just need to like calm down so that I can then go, let me make a better decision. And so really being able to like put your face in some water where you're like some people use like a little band aid, like a little and they snap themselves out of something. I don't, I don't like that. It's you know, we can talk about like some self-harm there, which I don't really really kind of promote that. I really like putting running cold water under your, you know, your temples here where it's like this is straight to your heart, right? And so it'll kind of calm it down a lot of like deep, deep breathing so that you can really kind of be now. As soon as your nervous system starts going out, you're you're reacting to a trauma from the past.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

What about for those women that will say, I had no trauma? Uh I grew up in a loving household and you know, privileged. But I'm still a people pleaser. Does that even exist? Well, I'm pretty sure that exists.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

I will beg to differ. I know. Because again, because trauma has this like really scary connotation, right? Of like, because something really bad happened to me. And so I'll I'll share one of my traumas, which is uh my first grade teacher called me a late bird because I was late. My mom, like you know, we had just moved, we got late, and I remember seeing this classroom and there was kids there, and then I was part of the late birds. They were the early birds, I was a late bird. And so immediately at six, at six years old, first grade, I remember the teacher's name, I remember what she looks like, I remember how her haircut was. Mrs. Turtle, she's probably not alive anymore, but like I remember because from that point on, in my head, I was not smart. I was the late birds, the the early birds were the smart kids, the late birds were the not the smart kids. And then I consistently had issues with school. Oh, I have three degrees and two BAs and everything, like, right? It's but it was always uh, I'm not smart, I'm not school's too hard, school's too hard for me, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Because this one little experience. One little experience. So that might be something that a lot of women don't even recognize. Or maybe after hearing this, maybe they're gonna go back and think and be like, you know what? Mrs.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Carroll, it's the thing that most comes up for you, right? So it might not be people, it might be something else, but the thing that like the negative cognition, right? The thing that you believe about yourself when under stress, because this is the thing like, yeah, I don't have yeah, no, under stress, right? What is the thing that most comes up for you that you think about yourself, right? I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm you know, I whatever. Whatever it is, there is there is a trauma that is associated with that belief system. Because it's not typically the trauma, the thing that happened to us, it is what we then linked to that trauma that then told us what we believe about ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Right. And understanding that and and letting the women know, like, hey, trauma is uh a spectrum. It could be something that was really detrimental and dangerous and can go all the way over to first grade, I was late. Yeah. Going into class. And that's all part of that spectrum.

SPEAKER_04 23:40

Mom left to work. Mm-hmm. After I she was home with me till I was gonna enter kindergarten, and she left me. Yeah. Sometimes it's that, right? Sometimes so there's little T, right? Little traumas. There's a lot of consistent little traumas. My mom, you know, not my mom, but like you can say, like, my mom or my dad would call me stupid all the time. Little little traumas. And then there's the big T, which is like the very identifiable trauma, right? You could be like, I know exactly what it happened, I know what it was. Yeah. That's what, you know, changed my life forever.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah. And we need to do that in order to be able to reinvent ourselves, come back to ourselves, um, shed those old conditions. Yes, you know, speaking of which with the old conditioning, right? Because we always talk about like, hey, we we were inherited with the conditions that we have today. Could it also be a people pleaser? Uh, you know, besides the trauma, could it also be where it was inherited, it was taught to us. It was we were conditioned for that being as women.

SPEAKER_04 24:54

Yeah. So um there is there is a theory that I really like. It's called the Enneogram. And I'm we'll have a many opportunities to really get into the Enneogram, but that's one of like the the theoretical kind of like point of views that I like. The reason why I like it is because it it's like this number, you there's a personality type. I love it because it doesn't pathologize things. It really believes that you're born with this kind of system already, and then anything that happens to you, any trauma or anything, what it is, it goes through that lens that already existed who you are, right? And so the the way that you kind of can see that is like if you grew up under a household, whether you have many siblings or you, you know, you grew up with like cousins, but everybody kind of grew up under like that same system. Maybe let's just put it, same parents, same house, three different siblings. Those three siblings will have three very distinct personalities, very distinct, right? Because the theoretical the theory is you're kind of born that way, and then as things progress, what you see, how you interpret it, you kind of learn. So absolutely, right? If there's let's say three girls in a in a class in a household, and mom's a people pleaser because she saw mom be a people pleaser too, so grandma's a people pleaser. One of those three women will be a people pleaser because she will see, ah, people pleasing gets rewarded. Yeah. I get extra little something. Everybody says, What a good girl you are. Oh my gosh, look at her. She's so good. There's this thing, right? The other two might be like, that's a lot of work. I'm not doing that, right? Good for go for it. Like, I'll let my sister do that, right? So it depends on your personality type. You will then go, huh, that's that's that's the way to do it. And then they become teachers' pet. And then they become, you know, they're very good at like serving others, and they're such a helper. And oh my God, and gosh, don't be a woman and a people pleaser, because that just, you know, it gives you everything.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah. And that also can lead to that burnout. That also can lead to like you lose your identity because you're so busy beating, and I'm, you know, I keep saying we because I'm not always a people pleaser, it's just the survival type of thing. But I totally, totally get it. Um, so thank you so much for for that perspective. You know, as we wrap up um for this round table, you know, what is what's your final message in regards to like Jenny's um episode and what you want other women to learn?

SPEAKER_04 27:45

I really want them to practice maybe doing this like energy audit of like really on a daily basis checking in and saying, is what I'm doing today, is that going to bring me energy? Is it going to take energy from me and then ask, am I doing this because I want to do it, or am I doing this because I don't want someone not to like me? Right? Are you are you are you engaging in whatever you're engaging for yourself and others? Or are you doing it specifically because you're trying to either evoke an emotion or avoid an emotion and kind of just sit with that.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

That's awesome. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Well, this has been great. I cannot wait for next week's episode. Awesome. Um, so until then, I'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

All right. Bye. Take care.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

If this conversation resonated with you, you're not alone. That's exactly why this space exists. Elevate within as for the high-achieving women in the messy middle, the space between who you were and who you're becoming. The architecture of reinvention is an invitation to pause, to reflect, to heal, and to begin the process of unbecoming everything you were told you had to be, so you could become who you were always meant to be. Be sure to join us each Friday for our Architecture of Reinvention Roundtable discussions, where we continue these conversations and explore the deeper lessons, insights, tools, and reflections that emerge from each story. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube so you never miss an episode. For Apple Podcasts listeners, I would be grateful if you leave a rating or review. It helps reach more women who may need this conversation right now. And if you'd like to go deeper, join us on Substack at Elevate Within. There, you'll find weekly essays and honest conversations about burnout, grief, reinvention, resilience, healing, and the messy middle. Free subscribers receive full access to all public content, while paid subscribers receive bonus essays, early access to upcoming series, behind-the-scenes recording, and opportunities to engage directly with the community. If you know of a woman who needs to hear this conversation today, please share it with her. You can find me on LinkedIn under Sanders Davis, on Substack at Elevate Within, and if you're in need of fractional COO work or would like to book a discovery call on how I can help, you can reach out to me at ElevateOpsadvisory.com. You'll find all those links in the show notes. Until next time, keep elevating personally, professionally, and from within.