Dark Moon + Full Moon
A Virgo yogi and a Libra goth lesbian walk into a podcast. They talk about healing, spirituality, astrology, religious trauma, aliens, and your problems. One of them has a vision board. One of them has an ouija board. Nobody stays on topic. Everyone leaves changed. New episodes whenever Mercury allows.
Dark Moon + Full Moon
Episode 3 - From the Pew to the Altar Pt.1
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In this episode, Lauren and Lynnsey share their personal journeys of leaving organized religion and the grief, relief, and transformation that came with it. They dig into the concept of spiritual bypassing — the way religious language can be used to dodge real accountability and genuine healing — and call out specific examples with receipts straight from the Bible itself.
TRIGGER WARNINGS: Religious trauma, suicidal ideation, and sexual assault.
Hey guys, I'm post editing Lindsay here. Just realizing the need for some trigger warnings in this episode. Discussion topics include religious trauma as well as mentions of suicidal ideation and sexual assault. So I've been advised.
SPEAKER_03I saw a TikTok today that said um that the Twilight series that hold on, let me get this right. Carlisle is Joseph Smith and the Volturi is the Catholic Church. Okay. And that Carlisle has his like very white, very pristine, like family, very pure. That's why Edward wouldn't like have sex before marriage and like all this stuff. And that Stephanie Myers' Mormon upbringing was a big inspiration for Twilight.
SPEAKER_01Hold on though, wasn't it implied that Edward had had sex before Bella, but he was trying to be gentle with her because she was still human? I don't I don't know. We can't listen to TikTok, it's false information. And by the way, that's Carlizzle. Carlizzle.
SPEAKER_03I'm your host, Lauren. I'm Lindsay. How's it going, guys? It's been fucking terrible. I don't think, you know what? I'm not gonna sugarcoat anything and be like, it's great. Do it. No. Life kind of sucks right now. Yeah, yeah. Life really sucks. I am really struggling with this notion that like capitalism and going to work every day and paper pushing and fucking emails. That is not what my life was supposed to be. What?
SPEAKER_01No, no.
SPEAKER_03No, I was just gonna say, I I uh I deserve to be beachside. Yeah. I deserve to wake up when the sun wants to gently kiss my eyes awake.
SPEAKER_01That's poetic.
SPEAKER_03I deserve to sit up and go do yoga when I want and not just be like just rushing all the time. Like, oh, I gotta brush my teeth really fast or else they're not clean, and I have to get to work as fast as I can because clocking in at nine looks better than clocking in at 9.02.
SPEAKER_01Like, oh, I'm over it. Anyway, go ahead. Yes. I was just gonna say, can I point something out? Really, two things out. We have not planned exactly when yet, but I've been itching to do a workplace toxicity episode. And really a work uh force toxicity, a capital whatever toxicity. But the thing I want to point out. Um, no, this is probably just my interpretation. I'm not actually picking a bone with you right now. But you remember years ago when I was laid off and I was like, this is just bullshit. Like, why are we having to work? I just I just want to live. I don't want to have to survive. I made the joke that I wanted to get paid to exist like a Kardashian. So maybe that's why you kind of were like, okay, but they still work. Back then it did feel like I was being I was really frustrated and depressed at this idea. I have been forever, like unpopular opinion, but I've never wanted to work in my life. I just do it. Everyone, but there is a generation, there's a type of person that is obsessed with success, Capricorns, and and threes, boomers. Um, all of their self-worth is in their tangible work. And don't get me started, I'll save that for the workplace toxicity episode. But that's not me. And the way those people think that sometimes younger people are weak in the sense that they don't subscribe to that bullshit. They're like, I this is just I happen to spend 40 hours a week here, but that's not my rule. I'm just saying that we were not born to survive, we were born to thrive, and work takes that away, and employers expect you to think of them like family with your loyalty, but they wouldn't do the same for you, essentially. That's what that episode will be about. That's the teaser.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was gonna say, I think that that segues kind of really nicely into this because you know, this episode is about kind of why we left the church, um, our upbringing, what I don't see how that segues. No, hold on, let me explain. Okay, but what is being in the church if not for blind obedience? Yeah, and just doing what the man says.
SPEAKER_01The 40-hour work week is because Henry Ford. I know. Isn't that wild? And you and I know, oh, we should we should talk about this later, we'll get into it. But specific days of the week align with a certain planet, and that's what indicates figured this out. But that's what indicates how you might feel. Mondays don't just suck because they're the beginning of the week the work week for many people. Mondays are tough because much like a Sunday, it's a day of relaxation, and we're not getting to. We have to go to work. So, yes, it's a it's a whole thing. All I'm saying though is that years ago when I felt I've been feeling this way about working for the man, and you're just now getting into it. So I'm having trouble not being like, I know. I don't know if I'm just now getting into it.
SPEAKER_03I just I'm starting to come out of this like please don't laugh, this toxic positivity that that spiritualism can really like push on you, like positive vibes only, you know, only um high vibe tribe, you know, that shit. And I'm just I'm starting to recognize the spiritual bypassing in all of that, and so now I'm just like, no, I'm admitting the things that I've always felt without like there's a shame using my mental brain to like push it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's a shame about it, right? There's a there's almost like this shame in admitting I don't want to work, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because then people are like, okay, well, freeloader.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's just like, well, you want to sit on food stamps, you don't want to work for a living. I actually enjoy working on things I want to work on. I will work hard and the hours will disappear if I'm committed. I'm sorry, but I'm not committed to your fucking Microsoft Outlook email bothering me. That's why I ha I follow all those workplaces. I'm doing so bad on stage. It's fine, but Employee Tears is a great Instagram page with all the relatable employee memes. It's called Employee Tears. And no, not sponsored, they're just a page, but I like them, it feels validating. That's all I'm saying. I've been feeling that way. Yeah. Like, fuck this. I know.
SPEAKER_03I know. It's just a new type of like admitting to yourself and believing that all feelings are valid and none of them are higher than the other, and you know, all of that stuff. So I'm just like, this is what I want. Even if it's unrealistic, that's what I want. What kind of life can I create for myself in this environment? You know? Yeah. So, anyway, so this episode, guys, like I said, we're gonna talk about um our dealings with the church. If you're new here, um you might know us as a little woo-woo and a little goth. And most people don't really associate those personalities with Christianity. But wouldn't you know once upon a time, you would have found our butts in the church? Different churches. Yeah. But, and it may be at different times. But I do want to start this off, even though that we're seven minutes in, I do want to start this off to say that like this episode is not an attack on Christianity or or people of faith in any capacity. Um, we have a lot of people in our lives who are still religious that still subscribe to these ideas uh that that we love very much. We actually just hung out with one of my good friends um on Sunday. Shout out Melissa if you're listening, who is a Christian missionary. Like that is her job.
SPEAKER_01We wanted to bring her on the show and we just didn't plan it right. I know. The show, listen to me. The show, I know.
SPEAKER_03But the producers, they're you know, they're really big about like scheduling, and also they don't stick to their schedules. It's great. I know. And then we would have to talk to our sponsors and find out that they're cool with her. It's just, you know, it's a little difficult to have guests like last minute, but I'm just joking.
SPEAKER_01Um I was gonna ask, can I say my version of what you just said, my disclaimer about what this episode is about? So I just noted like so, truth be told, all faith, quote unquote, and spirituality is selective interpretation in a sense. All we sort of have is our interpretation, yeah. But what I have a problem with is when selective interpretation is weaponized and it's harmful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's my issue with organized religion, and we will get into that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I just like some good questions that I kind of want to visit here, or even for listeners who are just like, what do you mean you kind of believe in God or a God, but you don't believe in God? Like, what does that mean? So, like, what's the difference between spirituality and religion? Um, what does religious trauma actually mean? And do you do either one of us identify as having religious trauma? Um, can you even have religious trauma from something that you voluntarily came to as an adult like me? I did not grow up in the church, I voluntarily kind of put myself there.
SPEAKER_01I think so.
SPEAKER_03Do I get to claim that I have religious trauma? And is there a difference between leaving a religion and leaving a community? And why does that distinction matter from someone who has also left non-church communities? And I don't say left in that kind of like we escaped a cult, you know. Some people would call it a cult, but so I guess I'll I mean, do you have any response to any of those that you want to go into?
SPEAKER_01Or you just kind of want to have a single one.
SPEAKER_03Oh well, we'll get into it, I guess.
SPEAKER_01But I'm just saying, I do have answers to all of those in case I was prompted. Sure. So yeah. I guess I'll just give a little bit of backstory for myself, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I grew up in what I'm calling default Christianity. So it was like understood that we believed in God, that we were Christians. Um, you know, I remember my grandmother would always have. Do you remember precious moments? The little figurines. I think I can picture them, yeah. Um, I had a precious moments Bible. I loved that that stuff. Most that shit. Um loved that shit. I know. There were like religious things around the house. Um, we didn't pray all the time. I do remember, I don't know if I was taught, obviously I had to have been taught, but there was a point in time where I said nightly prayers, but like to myself. And I had that was like my first instance of anxiety where I just, if I forgot somebody, like they were gonna die in a car wreck that night, you know? Um we talked about that on our original episode. I know. Um, like I said, we didn't go to a church, and it wasn't until I was, I guess around 10 years old. We lived in an apartment complex, and my best friend at the time was heavily involved in their church um because it was a school. She went there, and so they had a lot of teen stuff. This was like the late 90s, early 2000s, where teenagers were like front and center of everything. Like nightclubs had teen night and churches had teen stuff. By the way, is that's creepy in retrospect, but go ahead. 100%. It's like euphoria. We're not gonna get into that. No. Um, and then I got invited and I realized, oh my gosh, there are older boys here. I'm coming back every week. Oh my god, I love Jesus. I love Jesus. I have to go to church every Wednesday night, mom, because there are boys there. So, anyway, obviously there's a lot of really toxic messaging that I get around this time. It's around the time of like right after Columbine, and there's like a big influx of like martyrdom. Like, are you gonna say yes when you're asked, do you believe in God? Yeah, oh before you're shot. Yeah, you know, um, just the this whole like toxic culture when Christianity kind of became huge again. You know, uh there's all these Billy Graham things. I know that he was kind of like back in the day, but it was like a new uprising of Billy Graham festivals, right? They were trying to make Christianity cool again.
SPEAKER_01So that the kids would go. So that the children's can I mention too, this is right after, you know, the Reagan administration ended, and Nancy Reagan was really pushing the say no to drugs, and so religion kind of jumped on that bandwagon of like trying to influence the kids to be good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Do you know what else happened around that time?
SPEAKER_019-11.
SPEAKER_03You know what everyone did after 9-11? They started hating Muslims. And then went back to God. Yep. And so that was the time. That was kind of where I was at. Um, obviously, the older that I got, like I'm talking 14 years old or so, um, I stopped going to that church. I moved away. I was in a girls' home where church was mandatory, but it was not like cool fun church. It was like we're sitting in the pews singing the old hymns out of the hymnal book. Right? Yeah. Anyway, I'm thinking of a story of Did I tell you that story when um the what is he called? The guy that sings uh the mice. No, the praise, praise and worship leader at Girlstown.
SPEAKER_01Oh, there's an I don't know. The pastor, the main.
SPEAKER_03He had a title. Okay, cool. Anyway, he's brand new, and I don't know what he was told about Girlstown Girls, what he thought he was coming into, like some oranges, the new black shit. He makes up a spot. He's at or not a spot, he comes up with a song on the spot, playing his piano, like very Stevie Wonder intense, singing a song about how we can take the needles out of our arms and like go back to Jesus' arms. And we're sitting there like 14, never done anything, like uh, okay.
SPEAKER_01I can't believe I've never told you that story. Yeah, I don't know that story.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he was super intense, and I was like, I that's not what happened. That's not why I'm here. Like for real. We're just like, uh, okay. Anyway, fast forward, fast forward a few years. I mean, there are a lot of years that I'm just like, I am atheist, I don't believe in any of this shit, and you can't prove it. And my favorite quote of all time back then was something along the lines of um, oh, now I've forgotten it. Something along like it's kind of like that um quote out of Constantine, like when proof of the of the devil is suddenly or when no proof of the devil is suddenly proof of the devil, that's kind of where I have a problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's what Constantine says. Because remember, Constantine is an atheist.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love Constantine. I know, even though he fights angels and demons. Yeah, I feel like that by definition he can't well, no, he would be an atheist, if that makes sense. But he sort of works for God, but it's because he's afraid to die and he's hoping that he can redeem himself, but but that's anyway.
SPEAKER_03So then fast forward, I'm a young 20s, I've got two kids already. I'm married, I am going through it, bro. Like shit is hard. My marriage is failing constantly, it feels like every other month. Um, I feel like I can't get a hold of like raising my kids in a way that I feel was appropriate. And I what I mean by that is am I being perceived as a good mother, right? And I am not working, so I'm just home with two very little kids all the time. And I remember just multiple times where I felt like my life was falling apart, and everybody would always be like, Well, you gotta go to church. You gotta get into a church. If you want your marriage to succeed, you gotta get into a church.
SPEAKER_00Like bring God into the bedroom.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, not a therapist, not like, hey guys, you should probably get some counseling. Nothing like that. It was always church, and as a poor person back then, that was kind of the way to go about it. You know, there were a lot of activities that I could take the kids to for free. And I think that's kind of how it's designed to get you in the door.
SPEAKER_01Well, they don't pay taxes, so they can certainly afford to give it to you.
SPEAKER_03Well, I know, but I'm saying, like, the more that you're there, the more you want to be there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you feel a sense of belonging and not just love from humans, but like the love of God. Yeah. You're like so.
SPEAKER_03I began to get deeper involved. So, by the way, same church we're talking about. Same church from the early 2000s is the church that I went back to just because it felt familiar. Whatever. At this point, it is no longer a school and it is a full-blown mega church. I mean, there's like an arena in the middle of the church where they put on concerts with 360 live, like there are seats that go up. Like, how what am I trying to say?
SPEAKER_01Oh, like a colosseum.
SPEAKER_03Like a collection, yeah, it's like stadium seating or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Designed so that everyone can see, everyone can hear, the station spins.
SPEAKER_03It spins and it goes up and down so that the the the worship team doesn't like pack all their shit and get off of the stage like while you're watching. It lowers while the pastor comes up.
SPEAKER_01Like he's fucking fetty wop.
SPEAKER_03Like he's yes. While your eyes are closed, so you don't see the magic happening. You close them with the with the band on the stage, you open them, and what do you know? There's Pastor Jimmy.
SPEAKER_01Like, are you kidding? No, I've never I don't know. I I'll tell my story in a minute, but I've not been in church as an adult at all, and I'm proud of it. But I'm joking. Um You're like a gold star. I'm a gold star church person. No, but I didn't know that. The whole stage spinning, I was gonna be like, like, this is Oprah, all right, but but there's more, so please. Oh, there's more. I mean, it's lit up.
SPEAKER_03It's they have like it's like a light show. I've heard of that. I've yeah, it's crazy. Everything is like expertly produced. They did not spare a single expense of their donations for this place. It's amazing. But to me, I was like, oh, this is cool. You know, I've I've always been a fan of like upgraded stuff and like technology and yeah, like we don't have to sing hymns, we can make music.
SPEAKER_01Right. Actual music. I've been to churches with like bands when I was a kid as part of that 90s early aughts effort to make church cool. And I can remember thinking that, like, oh, this is relatable, not my not the not my grandparents' church, where they were like, mm-hmm. Amazing.
SPEAKER_03Um you know, and so you're you're sitting there and you're feeling kind of like this aunt in the crowd because there's 4,000 people in each service. Okay. Um, you're feeling like an aunt in the crowd, and you're looking up at this person who was chosen to be like the lead singer. How do you get to be the lead singer of the praise and worship team? You know, she had a great voice, but I'm just like kind of idolizing her to a point where I'm like, oh I can sing too.
SPEAKER_01You know, I definitely can see you being like, how do I get to the center of all this?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. My my my seven wing that I'm 100% certain of really came into play in this moment. So, you know, and then there's people walking around with fucking lanyards on, and you're like, oh, I want a lanyard. How do I get into this? How do I break into this? Right. And so I did. And I brought everybody along with me. Like I went to whatever training I needed to be to be an official volunteer. Zach went through it. Like, we were going to all of these um they what do they call life groups? So you would go on a website and you would type in, like, I'm looking for a men's group or a women's or moms, and they would give you a list. Like, do you want to do yoga with Christians? Like, do you want to uh according to them, yes? Do you want to uh go skateboarding with Christians? Like it's all these different groups, there's hundreds of them to the point that I started one, a Bible journaling one. And Chris Zelda was part of that too. Like, even though I knew her from before, she's my photographer. Um, I knew her from before, but I was like, oh my gosh, that's kind of how we came back into each other's lives.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Anyway, we get full-blown involved in the church. Like we're doing all these things, our kids are getting involved, they're getting baptized. I mean, they're getting the t-shirt to take home after the baptism, as is biblically accurate. And I get a free t-shirt. I believe in Jesus. You do, you know, you get to be baptized on the TV, the big TV.
SPEAKER_01What's our I was gonna I would just like to say that earlier today, I designed a wonderful Jesus t-shirt. I'm just saying if you if you want to be a big thing.
SPEAKER_03That sounds like sarcasm, but it's true. If you want to design baptism t shirts, you know there's probably a need. There are mega churches everywhere in need of your skills.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03Um and then then And real life hit again, and our marriage began to fail again. And I remember going to the church for help, and they were just like, You have to have faith in God. You have to put put it in his hands. Um, you know, all of these things to the point that like I needed antidepressants. Like I needed something. I was like suicidal. Like it was really bad during this time. And I will never forget being told that essentially if I was this depressed, that my faith wasn't high enough. It wasn't enough. You know, that I didn't trust that God had it, that this wasn't all in his divine timing kind of thing. So push comes to shove, and then the 2016 election comes about. And they make some statements about how you cannot, not even like it's difficult, you cannot be a Christian and vote for Hillary Clinton. And that was the last time I stepped foot in that place. But I was kind of like, oh, you know, I don't want to go. But it wasn't until 2020 when COVID hit, and they were putting out all of this information about how Christians were being persecuted for wanting to gather to worship, that this was an attack on Christianity by telling them that they can't come to church. And I was like, oh, I'm not only am I done, I'm real done. I sent them an email and I was like, I don't know if you guys still have a registry of members like you used to back in the day, but I just want to make it abundantly clear that my name needs to be removed from this registry. I do not want to ever be associated with this church. And if there is a way that I can get back every dime that I've ever donated to you guys, I'm gonna find it. Like, fuck you. I'm out. Yeah. So it just it was kind of a kind of a whirlwind of of how of my involvement in the church. Um, you know, and again, I think that my experience is gonna be a little bit different than yours because mine wasn't really instilled in me as a child, and it was something that was that I kind of fell into as an adult. Yeah, you know, and it just felt so different. So I don't know. I think the performance of faith was like the biggest thing back then, where I was just like, I have to look like my perception meant everything to me. I want to look like a good wife, I want to look like a good mother, I want to look like a good Christian, I want to look like a good daughter. Like, what are the white people thinking about you? Yeah. So that was pretty much my story. Um yeah. And as far as like what did it cost me to leave, um, it cost me a lot of friendships, you know. People just kind of stopped talking to me. Um, I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that my boss at the time, um, you know, I had quit my job there around the same time that I left and had feelings about that and a narrative about me, and even went and told some of these church people, and I'm not talking about like 30-year-olds, I'm talking old ladies that like gave me grandmother energy and grandmother type love that suddenly wouldn't talk to me anymore. And I was just like, Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, like I I hate this shit of like experiencing community and then having it pretty much ripped away in the same breath, you know what I mean? Yeah, um so then I think I decided at that point that like I just I don't know that I believe any of this stuff anymore. I know that I believe in something because I've experienced things, but I don't know how to explain it. Yeah, you know. Um and then just kind of wrapping this up, but just to say that knowing that there was something but not knowing what kind of really led me into like self-exploration and um getting into like earth-based spirituality, you know, things like that. Um, yoga going back to yoga and not thinking that it was just for fitness. Yeah, but also there was a point in time where I was really, really obsessed with yoga, and I cannot remember who told me, but it they were just like yikes, because I had an ohm necklace with an ohm. Yeah, and they were like, What's that? That's not a cross.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. I was about to say this same exact thing. That's not Jesus, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't think Jesus said ohm. I think he did, but don't okay. Yeah. Um, so I got rid of all of that stuff, which is so cool. It was back when EarthBand had all their cool stuff, and it was good quality jewelry, yeah. It was good jewelry and good clothes, and I got rid of all of it because I was like, well, can't do this. I'm a good Christian bitch. So anyway, so I go back to yoga, back to spirituality, back to like feeling like it's okay to feel uh interested in certain topics like um demonic possession or mediumship, talking to dead people. Like I've always been really interested in that stuff, but I felt like I couldn't be outwardly interested in it. So after I left, that's when I kind of got back into being okay with looking up that stuff and career.
SPEAKER_00And then you meet a friend at a tarot reading. I know, but my life was never the same.
SPEAKER_01That's not what I meant. I just meant uh if someone told your 2015 self, like that would be you probably wouldn't have been so like uh about it, but it's just a funny difference if you think about like how tits deep you were in the church, and then I know, and then you're at a tarot reading a few years later.
SPEAKER_03No, I think that because I knew me, yeah, and then it would have always intrigued me. Yeah, you know, but I think that more importantly, I just was so interested in figuring out how to heal because I just felt so unhealed. Like it didn't matter what I did if I went to therapy, if I took meds, if I went to church. Like I just felt so empty, you know, and I used this expression the other day with our friend Melissa, like there is not a God-shaped hole inside of me or anybody else. And so I just was interested in like I'm tired of feeling like this. So I guess in true Virgo fashion, I'll fucking do it. I guess I'll fix me since nobody else can accurately. So, anyway, okay, so tell me about your experience. Yours is very different than mine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, again, I have to take this moment, if anyone's interested, to plug our original episode. The show used to be called One October Midnight. The episode is still on Spotify and it's called Queen James and the 30,000 changes to the Bible or something like that. So that one's a little bit more rough, but um I was about to say, disclaimer. Sorry guys. Yeah, that was still us a few years ago. And um anyway, but I explained a lot of it there, some of it will be repeated here. Um, I noted that I grew up, I guess I didn't mean default in the sense that you did, because it was instilled in me, but it felt default because you're in the panhandle of Texas, and everyone around you is just of many races black, Hispanic, white. They're still usually Christian of some denomination. And so it was just default. And I only remember later like meeting kids in school who maybe believed something did actually right after 9-11, there was a girl who um was a refugee here from Iran. And um anyway, I just I but I I love something about little me. I've had an issue with being easily swayed when I was young because I didn't have a lot of like self-worth or what that's a whole other thing. But um, anyways, I can I'm proud of little me for like meeting this little Iranian girl and not I didn't think anything about her, you know. No matter what people were saying about, you know, people from the Middle East, I was just kind of like, okay, she was just my classmate. And I don't know, that sticks out to me because not not to be like a pat on my own back, but there have been other times in my life where I maybe made the wrong choice and I followed the crowd, you know, so I was I'm proud of this little part of me. Yeah. So anyway, but yes, I grew up that way. My dad was raised Baptist, and he's he kind of had things like Bibles and stuff, but I can't explain it. My dad's pretty open-minded. He also taught me a lot quite a bit about like Native American beliefs and my heritage in that regard. So he's he's not been that kind of person. He's just kind of like, whatever, man. Like, if someone said I don't believe in God, my dad would just be like, Okay. My mom is quite different, and that's a whole other bag as well. Um, but yeah, so there was only one short period where we as a family showed up to a some brick and mortar building to worship Sky Daddy, but sometimes, or sometimes I went to church on weekends with my grandparents, like I mentioned, but and they were Catholic, right? Well, no, they my grandparents both grew up Catholic at some point in their life, but they later converted to Christianity, which is an interesting story because I don't know what changed or what went wrong, but I will never forget my grandpa all my life saying such blanket statements like Catholics don't read the Bible. And I don't I have no clue what that was based on. Actually, I do, but it's that's great. Do you want potatoes? Or I want to make sure I'm managing my time correctly, but I have some thoughts on why he thought that. But yeah, they were both like my I get my grandma was a little bit more open-minded. My grandpa was the um hypocritical type of Christian, just classic, and I think he had a lot of guilt about that when he was getting up in age, but that's also another story. Sure. Anyway, um, so yeah, went to church with the grandparents sometimes. Um, it was embedded be embedded in me by my mom for as long as I can remember, though. I have a distinct memory of being in the bath when I was little, like little enough that she still had to bathe me or help me bathe, and her um singing to me that Jesus loves me song. And part of me wants to smile at this warm memory that my mother sang to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She read to me, she spent time with me, that one-on-one time that she didn't get with eight, nine other siblings running around the house. But let's analyze the lyrics of that song really quick. Just the first few. Jesus loves me, yes, I know, for the Bible tells me so. Sounds cute and poetic and wholesome, but there's the flip side of that that comes with Christianity, like this inherent. You know, you have a problem in life. Well, Jesus loves you. How do I know? Well, the Bible says so. That's the answer to everything. The Bible says so.
SPEAKER_03Are you gonna go into the next verse, the next line? I don't what is it? Remind me. Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong. They are weak, but he is strong.
SPEAKER_01Love that. So, see, that entire song was probably saying to me, and I'm like, you're I am weak. I'm born a sinner. I know. You know, there's such a ug. So, whatever. All I'm saying is that it's psychologically harmful. I'm gonna plug a TikTok video of mine where I bitch about the psychological harm of religion later, maybe if I remember. So, anyway, my mom was also very rigid about certain things, which I am 100% sure came from my grandfather. She, as a kid, would always correct me if I said something like, Oh my god. Or one of my dad's favorite cuss words, which is goddamn, like he's very southern, pissed off, like just this goddamn this and goddamn that. And my mom like would have visceral reactions to hearing shit like that. Like, you know, when Sheldon's mom's like maybe not like that, but but like my mom's f not favorite, but her go-to line was like, You sure you're not supposed to take his name in vain. And on our previous episode, I don't know what that means. Yes, please tell everyone, because you said this in our last episode, and I would love for you to say it again.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, uh listen, I don't have many a conversation with Jesus or God in this regard, but it makes a lot more sense to me that what he meant was do not go do things in vain. Don't go be a terrible fucking person and say it's because of me. Like, that's taking my name in vain. That's saying that's put some respect on my name, is basically what he's saying. He's not saying every time that you you say, Oh my god, he's like, Oh, there's a strike.
SPEAKER_01Right. I also think that's such a weird thing to think of. I can understand the goddamn because it's literally accompanied by a curse word, but that comes from spell. Yes, goddamn goddamn goddamn blank. That's whatever it is. Yes. How is that taking his name? So I I grew up really confused, like, so he's like Voldemort, except Harry Potter wasn't a thing. But like, for real, Harry Potter was not a thing at the time, but it was like I was trying to always discern, and I had this fear of like, so I can say his name, that's not his fucking name. I'll go into that in a minute. I can say his name if I'm talking about him, but I can't exclaim, oh my god, out of excitement. I can't say, of course, I couldn't say goddamn as a child, but do you know what I mean? Yeah, but you can say God bless you, but you can't say god damn you. It was more I don't think my mom had any real basis for why I couldn't do that. I think her father just told her that, and she said, Okay. But why was that any different when people would say, Oh my lord? Right. It was that's totally different. Because because that and that comes from the belief that God is his name, and we know his name is not God, that is a title. His name is Yahweh, and I believe the God thing came from the commandment of not having any other gods before him. So he is so elite and singular that his name is God because there's no one else.
SPEAKER_03Well, I know, but I'm saying if you if you fast forward to your mom, okay, and if you would have said, Oh my god, she would have been upset. But I bet if you said, Oh my lord, that would have been not as bad. Not bad at all. It would have been fine. Right. What is that there should be no difference? Correct. Yes, it makes some sense. Oh my Yahweh is what you should have been.
SPEAKER_01Oh my yeshua. Which by the way, Yeshua is such a cuter name than Jesus. Jesus is a Latin bast Latin bastardization of that name. Oh yeah. I think Yeshua is cute. So sorry. Continuing on.
SPEAKER_03Um so what about like growing up with particularly your mom and maybe certain grandparents? Like, were they around when you came out, or was it really only your mom or other family members?
SPEAKER_01Sort of. Um, maybe we can save that for a part two, or like it's June. We could do a Pride Month thing and I could I could tell a story or two. Invite the gays again. Again? Oh no. But we have, I mean, better. Was that too anyway? Go ahead. Another time. Um, yes, they were around uh it's it's probably not what you're imagining, but I I feel like I still have some thoughts about the way m people in my family specifically react to any conflict or whatever. But anyway, so yes, I felt extreme guilt at such a young age for finding church boring, for only being able to think about how hungry I was or cold I was or again how utterly bored I was. Um, so it oh yeah, I can also remember feeling guilt for questioning the Bible. I grew up in the 90s and in 1995 a little movie called Jurassic Park comes out, and I was basically a little boy when I was young. I was obsessed with dinosaurs. Um I I learned the word archaeologist because of that, because my dad told me that those are the people that dig up the bones, and I was like, I want to do that. But then I come home from school one day and I'm like, okay, so like I have questions. Exactly like that. No. Um, so yes, I grow up with my mom. You know, I like I said, I have the distinct like bathtime memory. The others aren't distinct, it was just so snuck in there. God's brought into every conversation. I was, I would say my nighttime prayers with my mom when I was little so that she so she could teach me how. And then later you're saying them by yourself, and we're like, I there was this guilt if I fell asleep before I got to say them. There was this worry that I would forget someone, that same thing. Um, so anyway, I come home one day and I'm like, so I'm talking to my dad. And I'm like, well, mama said that Adam and Eve were the first, not just people, but anything on earth. Well, how is that true if the dinosaurs were here before us? And my dad just tried to answer neutrally, and essentially saying he doesn't know, but that's fair to ask. He was just like, that's where science battles religion, and you know, I don't really know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, I don't think I asked my mom. Maybe I did, but I don't have some kind of I think you I thought you said that that's when she kind of gave her line about Oh, yeah. Well, that was often her line. Anytime I had a question, it's well, there's just some things we don't know, and when we die, God will tell us. Cool.
SPEAKER_03Is he gonna give us like a slideshow? Like, all right, these are all the things that I've hidden from you.
SPEAKER_01Sorry for that time. I, you know. Sorry, I said, Oh my god. Yeah, sorry for all the times I was so bored in your house. Like, sorry for anyway, but I have questions.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And that maybe then I'll know.
SPEAKER_03But are there dinosaur skeletons up? Like, are there dinosaur ghosts?
SPEAKER_01That would be cool, right? Like, if they're dog ghosts, why aren't there dinosaur ghosts? That could be a band name. I don't know. Dinosaur ghosts. Yeah, yeah. So but yeah, so anytime I but I you know the things I really started to question more profoundly than the dinosaurs were the immediate contradicting statements, such as I am an all-loving God, but I am a jealous god. The don't judge people, but all other beliefs are wrong if you don't believe in me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We just happen, you just happen to be born at the right time in the right place to be in the rule, the one and only religion that got it right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The only one. So, yeah, just growing up in a place where churches are so ubiquitous. You can spit and hit a church around here. Literally, there's one outside. Right. Me, if you if you know me, this is funny. If you don't know me, this will be funny at some point. There are three churches within walking distance from my house right now. They all are near each other, and I don't know if they have like gang wars. Like, do they stand on the front porch and judge each other? Like, I believe in God better. I don't know. I don't know. Um the one across the street. Can I can only imagine the things that they have seen and thought to themselves. Right. So, anyway, but to going back to the gay thing, um, another thing I'm proud of myself for is that really realizing I was gay didn't rock me to my core and cause me to suddenly fear that I must be going to hell. I just had enough integrity, autonomy, understanding of myself, like belief in myself that I was like, well, I've done nothing wrong. I don't, I can't help the way I feel. And if I'm truly made in your image, why would you make me this way just to punish me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01To me, that it just it's the thoughts stop there, but then there are some people who believe, well, that's because he tested you. This is your test. Stop being a homo and you know, whatever. You have failed. I've utterly failed. So how did you like leave the church? Like, what was your did you have a clean break or was it gradual or gradual? Uh well, and when you say the church, I know what you mean, but I want to specify I have not set foot in a church since I was a kid and was probably going with family. Um, but yeah, never went to church or cared to. Oh, that's a lie. I was once dating a dude in the dude days of uh yeah, his mom, they were super Christian, and we went to some church somewhere, and that there's actually a funny story from that. I don't want to run out of time, so maybe remind me to save that for later. Yeah, I I had really no interest in it, but I still had this because it was default. That was my general faith. And I would say that when I um story for another episode, but I lived in a house with my daughter when she was very young that was haunted, like truly, it had some dark shit. I was also very dark at that time in my mind and my heart, and I think that there was a lot going on there. But anyway, weird shit was happening. And at the time, all you know is like, well, you gotta w what did I know? I went back to what I knew, which was that Michael the Archangel, uh, it's always been unclear to me whether he already has fought Lucifer or will again when the world ends, but that's what I knew.
SPEAKER_03So I not only Mike Tyson and what's his name?
SPEAKER_01Holyfield? Like the ultimate fight? Oh, the recent one, Jake Paul.
SPEAKER_03Jake Paul.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03Is it gonna be televised?
SPEAKER_01I'd love to see that. I have all this fear built up in life that like I must deserve this, right? This dark shit going on with me and blah blah blah. So, anyways, so much so that I memorize the prayer to Michael the Archangel in Latin. Oh, I want to hear this. I still know it. Ready go. Uh, Sancte Micael Arcangele defende no simprolio contra niquitium something, like I dang.
SPEAKER_03Do they respond better if it's in their native tongue?
SPEAKER_01So here's a funny another tidbit. I was a big fan of the show Supernatural. If you know, you know. But there's a lot of featured religion in that show and exorcism. But I had this belief essentially that because Latin's a dead language and any language is hard to translate, we will circle back to that. Tran things get lost in translation. Translation. It's proven in whether in general talk or especially especially especially these old biblical texts. So my assumption is this Latin prayer is more accurate to speak to Michael when it was written than maybe me being like, Michael the Archangel, defend us from all evil and the snares of the devil and whatever. So um I went through some awful shit in my twenties. And religion teaches you to relinquish all control, all glory to God, all power to God, etc. Uh, but me having no self-worth and also doing nothing to change my situation meant that I could pray and pray and pray and nothing would get better. And side note, back then, do you remember? I don't know if this was just like a popular tattoo that bitches were getting or if it was a saying, but did you remember the acronym PUSH? Pray until something happens. No. That is the laziest, no accountability. Literally, just keep begging for help, helpless on your knees, waiting for something to happen. That is whatever. So um, it teaches you don't act, just ask God. So um, you can't just sit around and ask permission, is what I'm saying, whether from God or the Creator or whatever you believe, to set boundaries and to love yourself and respect yourself and change your own life. You can't sit around and ask permission, you just need to do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so some religious people do both, I'll say they they ask God for a gift whilst they do what they need to do in the mundane, but um it just didn't work for me. Yeah, like I have qualms with religion because it's designed to strip you of autonomy and self-worth. So I had to leave it all behind, actively challenge it, and delve into everything that I was that religion taught me to fear. Yeah, which is a story for another episode, but I went way the opposite in a in some ways.
SPEAKER_03Well, and you know, I I just want to make a disclaimer here that like while we we are talking about Christianity by default because that's what's around us. Yeah, like I feel what you just said that religion strips you of autonomy. I feel that way about most religions, to be honest. Yeah, even I feel that way about Hinduism and uh I'm trying to think of other religions off the top of my head. Islam, yeah, uh Islam, yes, 100%. You know, it's not we're gonna if we say the word Christianity, please know that like we feel this way about most things. Organized religions, yes, Abraham. It's the dogma in all of it that you know is kind of fucked, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, did you have something else to say? Because I I wanted to kind of piggyback off of something that you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01No, go go ahead. I kind of just wrote down answers to some of our prompt questions that we wrote for ourselves, so I I have answers to everything. I'm just buttons.
SPEAKER_03Well, I just what you were describing is a hundred percent like spiritual bypassing. Yeah. And do you want to explain to the good folks what spiritual bypassing is? If not, I can do it.
SPEAKER_01Wait no, I didn't write anything down for that. I think your your words are good. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Okay. No, so I use spiritual bypassing in many different it's not just about Christianity or religion at all. I use it even in the spiritual community.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03So spiritual bypassing is a term that was coined by a psychologist um in 1984. It refers to the use of spiritual beliefs, practices, or frameworks to avoid dealing with painful feelings, unresolved psychological wounds, or personal accountability. So it's essentially it's just using the divine as a shortcut around every human work of actually feeling your feelings, which you know I love telling people to do, taking responsibility for your own actions, and doing the hard inner work that real healing requires. And I think the problem in any kind of organized religion is that kind of like in my experience, I needed some therapy. Yeah, like I needed therapy. I'm I'm considering and I have two young children and I'm considering ending my life. Like, I don't need more Jesus. I'm sorry, I don't, you know? No, telling somebody that's in crisis that faith is the answer to what might be a mental health issue or a trauma response or whatever, um be fatal. Yeah, detrimental. 100%. I actually have a story about that. I just remembered.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Can I, before you do, I would love to hear it. Some tea, but yes. I forgot that I did write something down. I wrote my favorite recent quote, waving from an alternate dimension, like we're above it all.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_01That happens a lot, even in the spiritual community.
SPEAKER_03Just I don't even, you know, I I don't vibrate that low.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't yeah, exactly. I was about to say that. I I vibe high, so yeah. I'm just ugh, anyway, what's your story?
SPEAKER_03Well, I was gonna tell you. Okay. So this didn't happen to me, obviously, and this didn't even happen to anybody that I like knew directly. This is all just hearsay for legal disclaimer. Okay, once upon a time, there's a man that goes to his pastor and is like, I'm having these feelings, I'm having these feelings, I'm having these feelings. And the pastor or whatever kind of channels God and tells him he needs to stop taking his medication. Have I told I feel like I've told you this story. No, I just you you this is you hear things like this.
SPEAKER_00Go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Stop taking you, don't need all of this medication. You need Jesus, you need more Jesus. And that man stopped his medication, and that man killed himself. And then wanted to his wife wanted to sue the church for that. Anyway, so another greatest hit, as we'll call it, um, is the line, the devil made me do it. Now that's what I call Jesus. Volume 49. The Devil Made Me Do It is that's zero personal accountability, none. External focus, like control, all of it. You you've lost all of it. It's just blame shifting. Like the devil made me do it. I saw Goody Proctor dancing with the devil. You know, um I think your favorite line, God has a plan uh used to avoid processing actual grief. Yep. Um, I'll pray for you. We get that. I don't think I get that one as much anymore. I did see a post last night um from you know, every once in a while I sneak back onto the Book of Faces on accident. And I did see a really tragic story about a young boy that had died, and all of the comments were full of like, I'm praying for you, I'm praying for you, I'm praying for you. And it's like, how many, and I listen, this is not me shaming, how many people are showing up? Yeah, are you showing up for people? Are you uh donating to their GoFundMe that they are having to now put together? Are you providing meal trains? Are you doing anything? Like, I'm sorry. Thank you for the prayers. If you genuinely care, do something do something else, please.
SPEAKER_01You know, growing up in the South like this, I has also just given me an aversion to saying certain things that now kind of uh trigger words a bit much, like where it doesn't really bother, but I'm just tired of it, you know, like around here, like you praying for you. Some people mean that, but sometimes it's just a default response. Or, you know, I just get tired of like words like that, like for on Facebook, especially, because okay, prayer warriors. And you know, from spirituality, if you get a bunch of people focused on a common goal energetically, it does do things. So I see you know the whole power of prayer. I'm not saying that's not a thing, but Facebook is also the place where people check into the hospital before they ask for the prayer warriors.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it just what you just said that's also biblical. I mean, there's a verse that literally says, Where two or more gather in my name.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like, and like that's a coven, mama.
SPEAKER_01Yep, yep. They raise their hands to the sky, mama. Anyway, so um, I guess I lost my train of thought there. I'm just saying, I get so tired of of stuff like that. If when someone tells me they're going through something, I'm just like, I'm so sorry, you're definitely in my thoughts. Sometimes I'll be like, you in my thoughts and spells, but really I'm like, I I'm thinking about you. Is there anything I can do? Can I bring you some food? I don't often have a lot of money, but yeah, if there's a GoFundMe, like you said, if you're just you need someone to like clean up the kitchen because you can't bear it.
SPEAKER_03I will a hundred percent so it's just showing up as you know, literally showing up, or you know, the common phrase, uh, everything happens for a reason. And I think that that one's even used in spirituality so much, like yeah, kind of, and it's hard because it's like, yes, but in this moment that's not helpful, you're not helping, thanks for nothing, yes. Um, and it's it's very dismissive of real pain.
SPEAKER_01I know you know. I know I'm especially the recent work I've been doing with that um psychotherapist's videos, like he gives those examples, like could be worse. You could not have parents at all. That's not helpful. It's not that a per it implies a person's ungrateful. Anyway.
SPEAKER_03Well, and then what I was gonna say here and kind of last and um using forgiveness theology um to skip accountability entirely is kind of one of the biggest problems that I have with this specific dogma. Um, you know, not to make it too dark, because I know that a lot of people have very similar stories, and I even saw a video about this that, like, narcissists, abusers, anything, why would they ever have to be accountable for their own actions? Why would they ever need to address the person or the people that they have harmed? Because they don't need their forgiveness, they only need God's forgiveness, and God will always forgive. So why why would you ever have to do any of the work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, you made me think of something in general speak, in my experience, it'd be the lowest of the shit human beings that love to say only God can judge me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I've never seen like a regular upstanding citizen say only God can judge me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, you know, again, not to make this too terribly dark, but I mean, I have a personal, I mean experience in this kind of situation. I was sexually assaulted by a family member um when I was young. And when Facebook came out and about and very popular, um, this person sent me a friend request.
SPEAKER_01I know I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, sent me a friend request, and I like obviously ignored it or declined it or something along those lines, and then I got a Facebook message from this person and essentially goes into or I said something, I don't know, very like high, I don't remember what it was. And I like let them have it. And I was like, fuck you. Like what what audacity do you have to send me a request? And he, I don't remember the exact words that he said, but he said something along the lines of Jesus has forgiven me, so I have forgiven me. Like if you're gonna hold on to that kind of thing, then you do that. Jesus forgave me, so I'm good. But you don't need to accept my request if you don't want to.
SPEAKER_01That's why that's why he lived in a jar in my freezer in vinegar and bullshit for years. The witches know. And do you remember when I took him out of the freezer and was like, it's time to bury him? It broke, and not because of a rapid temperature change, it just busted, and I hope he cut himself on the way out. Anyway.
SPEAKER_03I just I mean, that happened, I remember it was around 2012-ish. So I mean I'd already had two kids, and you know, I was in my young 20s. But I'm just saying, it's it's prime examples like that, and I know that that's like an extreme example, but that's kind of the lifeline that a lot of people hold on to, you know, is that I ultimately have the ultimate forgiveness from God, and we are taught that nothing is beyond God's reach, you can never get too far from God, that he can't find you. We're even taught like Hitler could have been saved before his final moments and got it into heaven. If he had just said, We don't know, you know, we don't know his personal relationship with God. Like we're told all of these incredibly toxic things, and incredibly toxic people cling on to these ideas so that they don't have to work on themselves. Continue to spiritually bypass, and that's what my work is all about now. Like, I don't ever want to be accused of knowingly spiritually bypassing anything ever again. And I even was spiritually bypassing at the beginning of my like uh journey with spiritualism, where I was like, oh my god, I'm feeling this pain. What crystal, Google, can I buy that's gonna fix this pain or this issue? And you you damn bet that I was buying that crystal or like buying an oil, or because I didn't have the belief that I could fix it. Yeah, it was still an external source because I didn't trust myself. I had gotten myself into this mess. How could I possibly get myself out by myself?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, on a smaller scale, that's why I got to a point where I didn't want to cleanse people's houses for them anymore because of many reasons that we don't have time to get into, but along those lines, like someone can't fix it for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, no, I I completely agree. And like I said, I'm this this may be coming off like very judgmental, but please understand, like I am saying these things from a place of experience because I've done it. I've done it in both the Christian sense, I've done it both in the witchy sense, I've done it in and all the things in between from a yoga perspective. Reiki. Um, uh we spent an entire eight months reading a book called The Inner Work that now I am having to decode to see like, oh my god, was that was that wrong? Was that applying a hierarchy to feelings?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god. And not only that, okay, we're not gonna go into that, but I'm just saying, I'm we're not coming from a place like of judgment. Yeah, but I just, if anybody's listening and you feel intrigued and you haven't turned this off already because you're pissed off that you feel personally attacked in your belief system, I just want to say that like you are whole and complete as you are. Like I said in the beginning, there is no such thing as a God-shaped hole that only this one particular very white male sitting up in some clouds can fix. I promise you, you have always been capable of healing yourself. You have the tools, you have the power. Like you, you lack in nothing. And it's discovering your own divinity that is more freeing than anything else that anything can give you. Not not church, not other people, not relationships, not drugs. Like it is a power and feeling of freedom that is unmatched.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, here in the South, there's a favorite saying people have, which is like, if God brings you to it, gotta get you through it. And it's also so it just it removes all of the um like action from you. The action, the responsibility, the everything. But the power too, like also strips you of power and autonomy. Because not everything has to the worst thing could happen to you. The love of your life could die, you could lose a child, and somebody's like, it's just God's plan. Fuck you, yeah, if you ever say that. Yeah, like it is true, life, you're going to have to try and figure out how to continue. But again, here we are with dismissal. That shit's not helpful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it isn't. But I mean, that's what I'm saying is like we're talking about accountability, yes, but like not every choice that you come to that's difficult has to do with like something that the collective would deem as negative, something that you essentially need to do inner work for, like, you know, maybe it is I don't know. Maybe maybe you need to feel empowered more than you need to feel guilt or more than you need to feel a release of control. Not everyone struggles with control, you know, but a lot of people do struggle with feeling powerless. And when you just hand over what's left of your worth and what's left of your power and your will and your drive, and you just hand it over, like here, fucking do something, and then something doesn't happen, yeah, then what?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's also harmful to a person, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So it just, you know, I I started looking into like certain passages of the Bible where because I know I know that that is not biblical teaching. That is societal. That is your pastors up there and their interpretations and the what I believe to be is the systemic mind control involved in the church. Yeah. Because Proverbs 19:3. Did you ever think we'd be reading Bible verses?
SPEAKER_01I did not.
SPEAKER_03Proverbs 19 3 says, A person's own folly leads to their ruin, yet your heart rages against the Lord. Like it's essentially saying, You made this mess. Stop blaming God or the devil. Like you did this, right? Or Romans 14, 12. So then each of us will give an account of ourselves to God, each of us individually. Like we are in charge of our actions, we are in charge of our emotions, we are in charge of the things that we do, the things that we say, the harm that we put on people, you know, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Um, and ultimately, we are in charge of our own healing. You know what I mean? So I just, I don't know. I think that's the biggest part for me is the spiritual bypassing in any regard, in any capacity, whether it be the church, whether it be um, you know, going to uh psychic reading instead of, you know, to have okay, well now I'm calling myself out. Uh to have the psychic tell you what to do instead of you figuring out what to do. Or in my instance, um pulling a card in the middle of the day to get an answer and getting the most smart ass answer I could have gotten. Uh yeah. So I think we're gonna pause it here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um stay tuned for part two. We didn't know this was gonna become a two-part episode, but it is now because we still have a lot to say.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so I really hope that you come back. I hope that we didn't piss you off enough. We got some we got some nice things coming up. Yeah, we're gonna talk about um how spiritualism and Christianity can honestly look so similar, but one has been labeled as demonic, and one has been labeled as woo-woo, and one has been labeled as correct. Yep. Go into those kind of paradox, paradoxical kind of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm excited. All right, we'll see y'all next week. And uh for dark moon, full moon, this is Laurie.
SPEAKER_01This is Lindsay. Hi, I'm gonna go.