The Daily Drive Book Club - Episode 1 - Leaders Eat Last

The Daily Drive Book Club | Episode 1 📖 Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek

Episode Summary

What does it actually mean to lead and why do the best leaders put their people first? In this episode, we dig into Simon Sinek's Leaders Eat Last, unpacking why safety, trust, and sacrifice are the real foundations of great leadership. Whether you're managing a team of two or two hundred, this one hits close to home.

In This Episode

• Why the best leaders create a "Circle of Safety"
• The chemicals behind trust, motivation, and burnout (yes, really)
• What Leaders Eat Last gets right — and where it gets a little idealistic
• Our Gas Tank rating for the book

Our Rating

⛽ Gas Tank: 3/4 (both hosts) A full tank of inspiration with just enough room to question the roadmap.

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Transcript

0:03

You're listening to the Daily Drive Book Club. A leadership audiobook experience where two leaders turn their commute into a classroom. I'm Vanessa. I'm Yanet. Sit in traffic with us as we drive, learn, and lead together. All right. Well, I-95, three right lanes blocked before 836. Whoo, we're gonna be on here for a while. Good morning. Good morning. How are I'm good. How are you? I'm good. Good. Listen, I'm already on the road and my map already said heavier than usual traffic. I don't have my map on 'cause I'm recording, Yeah. God knows. I'm free riding. I don't know what to expect. All right. All right, so- Get started I am excited that we are finally gonna get to discuss our first book, Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek, and I think the tagline for this book is Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don't. what do you- Really? That was the tagline? That was the tagline. I missed that tagline. Yeah, I was kinda surprised that that was the tagline because I didn't really feel like that was the, a message throughout. I mean, I guess it was, but it didn't feel like a prominent- I, I guess message, but we'll see. We'll see. So what did you think about the book? What stood out for you and, or really, hit home for you? All right. What hit home for me, well, you know, I m- maybe taking it a step back. Really it's about leaders who build, a rapport with their people, leaders who make people feel safe, leaders who are not in it just for themselves but for their companies, for their people. That hit home to me. So within that, within building trust among your team- And I'm guessing the, the big w- takeaway for me is that trust building, is the Spartans, it's the circle of trust, and it's the USS Santa Fe crew. I think those are the three things that hit home for me. Do you want me to elaborate, or you wanna jump in here and tell me what, what, what hit home for you? Well, I do want you to elaborate, but what I guess I'll just add to the mix before you elaborate is that, I mean, obviously that's the same that hit home for me. I think If you summed up the whole book into one phrase, it's a circle of trust, right? Like, that's what he drives home, like, you have to create that safe space, right? So are you gonna call Simon and tell him he has the wrong tagline, that we're gonna change his tagline? I think so. I might have to do that. All right. Let's call that guy. Go ahead. Be like, oye, change your tagline." So I... You know, obviously that's, that's the crux of the book and the main message that it's sending. But I think that for me, what really stood out within that is the how you create the circle of trust, right? And, the piece that really, really, really, really stuck out to me was about the consistent small actions. It's- Wow it was saying that, you don't create trust by these big speeches or these big actions what you would think would be needed in order to, send a message to the team, right? But that- Mm that that kinda falls flat, that what, what really requires is those small, everyday, consistent actions over time building trust. and one of... I think one of the examples that he used, not that I would do this particular thing, but one of the examples that he used was, one of the CEOs that went and manually handed out paychecks to each of his employees so that he would have that one-on-one contact with them. know, so it was, like, those kinds of small actions over time that build trust and, and rapport and relationships with people, so. I want you to talk about the Spartans and about the other story that you mentioned. All right. Well, to me, the Spartans hit home for a couple things. Officers ate last. So now whenever we order food, I'm like, "No comas." You c- you have to wait for everybody to eat 'cause you're gonna eat last. So I've been buying food for my people, even though I know there's all these books and things about, oh, don't throw a pizza party. People love food, man. And actually breaking bread makes people feel good. So, literally leaders eat last. And then, and that was also part of the Spartans thing, where when you're rationing food and you see that your leaders are not, at the table first and everybody else gets scraps, that makes you build trust. Right. You know? And, and the biggest thing for me is building that circle. So Spartans, the only way that you lose your citizenship as a Spartan warrior is if you lose your shield, because your shield next to the shield of everybody else is what's holding the line. And, and that to me, literally, figuratively, however we wanna see it, it is, so important. You know, I mean, yes, the fighters obviously were commended for fighting, but they were even more respected for protecting those around them. So that absolutely stood out to me. In the USS Santa Fe, the fact that when the leader got there, as is traditional in the armed forces and in many companies, the people were just doing exactly what they were told. And that whole chapter is about empowering your people. Yep. I have faced this. I love empowering people and, and seeing... And you know what? Somebody did it for me, so I do it for others. I wanna see what kind of magic you can build without me telling you exactly how to build it, you know? By empowering his people, he turned a fleet that was the worst in, in its, I don't know what to call it, platoon or whatever you know what I mean? The USS ship that was the worst in their numbers to the best. Right. Why? Because people took ownership of their job. When you take ownership of your job and you understand the job of the guy next to you, but you let him do his job, but you're there to catch each other, all of it weaving together makes a better team. The Spartans, yes, I mean, that, that really hit home for me too because, you know, that idea. And that's not just for leaders. That, that's every member of the team, right? That you're- Yes you have to see yourself as part of the team and, and protecting everyone around you and not just thinking about yourself, and that's really the only way that a team is going to, to work properly and, and be excellent. But the other story, was that the one with the, where the person followed the orders? Yes. Yeah. The USS is the one where, uh, it was a new captain, and the ship, uh, or the submarine was very, very similar to the one he had been on. So he called an order. The lieutenant was like, "Yes, sir." The lieutenant calls the order, and the young man at the dials is looking at his machine like, "Uh, I don't have that." So the captain asked the lieutenant, "Did you know that he didn't have that?" And he said, "Yes, sir." And he's like, "So why would you call it?" And he's like, "Because, sir, you told me to." And that's when he realized that he didn't want them to do exactly what he was telling them. He wanted to, them to tell him what they intended to do, and that's the whole I intend to do X. Right. That's when he changed the- Not permission to saying- Yeah right. Instead of- Not- asking for permission, her sta- stating, "I intend to do this." Yeah. Yeah, and it's interesting because I think leaders have done that for me, where they want you to come in with solutions. Right. "Yes, tell me the issue, but tell me your solutions. What do you wanna do about it?" And then, you know, I think that that i- is a great, great way to lead. Yeah. I, I agree. I think that I've definitely done my best work when I've give- been given the freedom to create, with some direction, maybe the overall vision and intention and maybe some guidelines, but let me play inside that space. Um, I definitely think that that's when I've done my best work, so I also try to create that for, for my team. I think they said in the book you don't want people that, um, just obey, that you want people that can think. Right? You don't want them to- Absolutely you don't want people that just know how to follow rules really well. You want people who can think on their own and create on their own and do on their own. Oh. But you have to create the safe space for that to, for them to feel that they can. Okay. So interesting, and this leads us to the circle of trust, which all of this has talked about the circle of trust. But the circle of trust, ha, which is a personal one for me. When people talk about a strong culture at an organization, a company Anywhere. Some people wonder, "Well, what does that mean? What does a strong culture mean versus a weak culture or a weak leader that pretends to be a strong leader?" Mm-hmm. So that circle of trust, which is my third point in the book, and then I want you to get into the whole science part, 'cause I know you like that part with, with the hormones and all that good stuff. But, with the circle of trust, the leader is in the middle. His lieutenants or his vice presidents or however we wanna call them or even the elders in the tribe are right around him. And now with a weak leader who builds a weak culture, and believe it or not, that he or she might seem strong, but really they're insecure. They isolate themselves. They don't trust their people, right? And what they do is they're pretty much monsters, right? And they're tyrants. And so people start fighting one another. This happened in the banking industries, I guess, after the deregulations and things like that, as stated in the book. So you have a culture, you're building a culture where it's like man eat man, and no one is protected. Right. And so as the circle widens and you have your different levels of management, or you have different members of a tribe or a community or a family, the people on the peripheral, it's like let the wolves eat them. Right. Like every man for himself, so no one feels safe. So no one can really create and, and be amazing in a sustainable amount of time when they don't feel safe. And that to me was eye-opening because now I can say, wow, a strong culture is where that leader at the top or in the middle in this case, is there to serve all the people around them, whether it's a tribe or a company. Those people in the peripheral feel secure because their leader has their back, and that is not an overnight thing. You gotta work at that. But to work somewhere or to live somewhere that you know your leader's got you, that is, to me, it's magical. I've... And I've been in that situation. Right. You know? And I think it's a great place to be. And I think that goes back to what I was saying before, 'cause you said it takes time, right? And it takes time of somebody doing those small consistent actions that, not just the lip service of saying these things- Right in big speeches- Yeah or, these- Yeah, those- grand gestures, but then disappearing in the day to day, right? How do you- Yeah how do you send that message in small consistent ways over time so that you can really build that trust, um- Yeah. Smoke and mirrors and big events, you're talking to a PR person. You know what I mean? You can put on the glitz, the glamour, the event- Right the announcements, the media interviews, and it has no substance. Or you can work that substance and eventually you get the good press, and yes, there could be events, but it feels different. Right. The feeling is palpable when, when you do it right. Well, yeah, 'cause you can be inspired by a big speech but if it- Right if it's not followed up with anything, that, that inspiration is gonna go away. So the next time you give the big encouraging speech, it's gonna fall flat because they're gonna be like, "Yeah, there's no substance to what you're saying," so- No, or the other way around, there's no substance or y- we know that you are lying to our face. Right. That, is gut-wrenching. That's worse. I mean, that's- That's worse, when you're forced to go listen to a leader that everybody dislikes, and these are multinational corporations and you know this guy's a tyrant, guy or gal, and you are, like, forced to clap because, you know, you need to feed your kids- Right you need to pay a mortgage. You know, a- and that is gut-wrenching. I don't wish that upon anyone. The next question was, about what fell flat. Oh. You go first on this one. What fell flat? Well, I think what fell flat for me was along those same lines of the circle of trust and creating an environment of safety. Um, so it's not that that fell flat. I, I obviously agree and I think that that's important. But I feel like there was... A- and I know you and I meant, talked about this before- Mm-hmm so I think we're on the same page about this, that there's, like, the flip side to that, right? Like, okay, what if you're creating a safe space but there's a member of the team that's still just not cutting it? They're, they're not the right person or they're just not doing what they need to be doing. Like, how do you balance creating a circle of trust and a safe space with also actually having to direct someone? Yes. I agree. Yep. And I- That fell flat for me, too. I was hoping in the, like, at least the end notes, something he was gonna tell you. Like, what about the people that are mediocre or simply don't fit, you know? And a good leader to me and my life experience of working and for people and people working for me, you have to be able to make the tough choices, and he never got there for me. Right. It was always about, you know, protecting the people. Listen, I agree with a lot of it. If we're not doing great, taking a cut, start from the top so that you can keep as many people as possible or finding efficiencies. There was a lot of it. You and I, you know, both love nonprofit and we understand the value of the human being, you know? We're not, like, the, "Oh my God, you know, make money at all costs." Yes, there's a bottom line, but definitely it never got there for me is as your boss... 'Cause maybe if it's a family it's different, right? In a family you gotta, everybody's gotta feel safe. You gotta protect hasta los dummies, you know, todo mundo. Everybody's in. We're all family, you know? That's how I feel 'cause I grew up like that, right? We don't cut people off. It would take a lot. But as your boss, it's not my job to save you or make you an adult or give you the will, like the ganas, that fire in the belly. Mm-hmm. I can only try so much. Right. Because you know what? Now you're taking away. Now your shield is not as strong as the shield next to you. Right. And, you know, how long do we go before the guy next to you is like, "Oye, oye, ¿hasta cuándo?" Yep. And for those who don't speak English, "My brother, until when?" Yeah, it... So that's the part that, you know, I felt m- maybe not missing. I mean, maybe that's not what he was going for in this book. Maybe we have to find another book that zeroes in more on how you handle those kinds of employees. Because ultimately I think he was saying, and I can't remember the exact quote, but something like, "Be, be patient with people but not with results," or something like that. So he was saying- Huh like, you don't compromise results, right? You still have to have high expectations on, Output and outcomes- Mm-hmm and all of that. But you have to make sure that you're creating an environment where people can do their best. Yes. But yeah, if you have a person or two that despite you doing everything you can to create a positive and safe environment, and, you know, a person or two are just still not stepping up to the plate, then I still feel like I'm missing that piece of the puzzle of "What do I do with them?" You know? Yeah. So- You know, when you, you just mentioned something, an environment where people can do their best. I would take that one step forward and say an environment where people are not afraid to fail. Yes. Because that is something else I got from this, and you just... There was a story about 3M, the com- you know, the company. They have a gazillion patents and all these scientists, and they actually, they all work together and know, each other's failures. Because from each other's failures, they've been able to build, I think they created the Post-It. Oh my God, I love Post-Its. Every once in a while I have to clean my desk 'cause I have Post-Its everywhere. So yeah. I think that learning from each other's mistakes and being in a space where it's okay, so scientists are allowed the space in some companies that their experiments maybe didn't fail 100%, but in 3M, they actually have a database of their mistakes that all of them can learn from. Right. Man, that's incredible. Because in other places, they try to pretend it never happened. And here, th- they are literally building products off of their mistakes. No, I can't... And that just came back to me, by the way. So I think the other question, that I wanted to ask was what, maybe you knew already, but h- for you, a little different, after listening to it in the book. Oh, I think my big mouth already covered that. To me was the, what, what was the aha moment and I was finally able to say, "OMG, I'm gonna write that down." Right. It was the strong culture versus a weak culture. Mm. And there are leaders who seem and who act strong, but they are building a weak culture of people who just say yes to them, you know, because they're so afraid. A culture of fear will eventually fail. Right. And when I saw it, because as we're driving and he was telling the story, and I can picture the circles, you know, Simon likes a lot of circles. That one I was like, "Oh, yeah, now I get it. Now I get it. This is in, you know... Now I can, I can understand this and I can explain it better." For me, that's where, So he has, I guess, a couple of chapters on hormones and, he calls it EDSO. So it's endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin. The first two are... endorphins and dopamine. Endorphins. And those are the internal ones, right, of like about me. I feel good. The I feel good about myself- Yeah. The dopamine is that quick hit, right? Right. Like, dopamine's like, "Woo." Right. "Yeah." Right. And endorphins are like that high feeling of like, "Yeah, this feels good," right? And so those are two hormones that affect people and make them want to do more. They feel good and they wanna do more. Mm. And then there's sort of the more, you know, connection-oriented hormones, which are the serotonin and the oxytocin. And that's more like the team-building, the relationship-building ones, that also, influence them to care about each other and to, wanna help each other, right? Mm. And then he talks about, cortisol, right? That cortisol- Oh, so the C which is a stress hormone, right. The C. Yep. That, that one can block all that other stuff. So if people are living in a state of stress or fear or whatever, that it can block all those other, hormones. And so obviously, you know, we already knew that in other contexts but I feel like the way that he broke it down in the book, I just feel like it hit a little bit different for me. And so now when I'm doing things or, or strategizing on certain things, I can think about, you know, how is this hitting the the four or five hormones that, uh, that are gonna motivate or inspire people to do their best. Right. And not everyone's inspired by the same thing. Right. I like those chapters too because I think we all experience the big C differently. Right. And I think I've mentioned I feel it in my body. I am very good at stressful situations, but my body eventually is like, "Just kidding. I'm gonna shut down now." Doof. Like that. Shut down. Um, yeah. Yeah. You got some weird thing now, and you're like, "What is this?" 'Cause I'm one of those where my brain can suppress the feeling, we gotta do this and we're going forward, you know? And in that chapter, I was like, oh, my goodness, this happens. And for example, and I, you know, I know someone who was, w- was having some trouble with blood work, and, and we sat down and talked about this chapter. And I said, "Look, I really wanna talk to you about something I recently read about the big city. It's killing us. It's killing you. You know, if you've never had this and you're living under X, Y, Z conditions a- especially at work, you know, because it's like, you need to look for a way to get out." Because, people say, "Oh, yeah, stress will kill you,", yeah, it actually can. Oh, absolutely. It actually can. I know that I've heard it before, but he definitely went into it deeper that you understand. And helps you also, like you said, understand your people and where they get their hits. Right. Right. You know, their hits of dopamine that eventually, again, go back to building trust. 'Cause if you know you do certain things and you're gonna feel good... Dios mío, this traffic is espérate. Espérate one second, 'cause this traffic is no joke today. Mine is- Um- not so bad so far. You ready? You ready for my... Reporting live from I-95. I-95 left lane blocked at State Road 112. That is what's happening over here. Where are you? I'm on 95, i'm on 95 too. Are you in the speed lane? No. I don't even know where I'm at. Um, I will tell you where I'm at in a minute cuando uno de esto Miamians lets me through so I can figure out where I'm at. There is an airport sign coming up. I haven't seen that yet, so you're closer to arriving at your destination than I am. Yeah. So let's finish this up before you get there. Yeah. No, don't worry, I've still got some time, but go ahead. Okay. Yeah, what we got. So what story from the book would you use in a meeting with your team? Oh, the Spartans. My team thinks I'm psychotic. The Spartans. Because I want them to feel like we have each other's backs. I want them to feel that shield that we can build. I want them to feel that, I will eat last. So have you already told them the Spartans story? Yes, of course. I went in. Like we had- They didn't understand it, because you know what I think? So I'm building a, newer team, and, they're still getting used to my style, of empowering them and of pushing them, but also of joining them in the work. So, I think I, I'm gonna have to repeat it, because I think once they have felt it, would, w- what it means to- Right, they can be like, "Ah, that's what she's doing." Ah, that's what she meant. Or once every single person has made a mistake, including me, but the shield held. You know what I mean? Yeah. The shield held. We made mistakes, but that shield held. It's okay. Right. You know? So I think that that's when we get our best work, when we feel empowered to do it, and we feel okay if we f- you know, fail. Et cetera. You know? No, I like that story too, and I, I definitely wanna use it, but I, also wanna use that, the submarine story, Yeah to drive home the point- Yeah to the team that, like, "Don't just do what I say," you're the experts." Right. "Tell me what I need to know," "Correct me, and, and tell me what the best strategy is from your vantage point." I haven't used the submarine story, but I have talked about some things like this with my team. I haven't used the actual story, but I have told them, and I think they get it now. Just because I say it, it doesn't mean it's so. Right. I expect for us to have conversations. I expect for us to disagree sometimes, and that's okay. And when I disagree with someone, sometimes I go with what they said, and sometimes I'm like, "Oh, well, we can try it this way." I definitely have opened it up to let them know that I'm not right all the time. I also reserve the right to change my mind. And, and I want that fight, you know? I want that discussion. This is not a just do, do, do, do, do. That's not what, that's not what we want. Right. And, you know, lucky for us, we've had leaders that have taught us that. Yes. Unfortunately, some people don't. But now I can put a story to it, the USS Santa Fe. Yes. There we go. So what's the one thing you're gonna implement on Monday morning that you haven't already? 'Cause apparently you've already been implementing- That I haven't already... I've been using this. You know what? It's not a, it's not a big thing. I think what I've started implementing are those little things that a leader should be doing, and checking myself, and asking the questions, and, involving them in the decisions that I can, making the team feel heard. I think that I haven't done, like, one big thing. I've done some little ones. And in essence, I'm able to now bec- because of this book, to say, "Oh, this is what that is." 'Cause I already knew some of this, but now we have, you know, names for it type thing. I'm able to celebrate people 'cause w- what's a big win to one person, the other person's like, "Oh, okay. That was nice." But the, the... But then you see the dopamine hit and the other one. So it's like enjoy people's success. Yes. You know? Uh, party with them when they win, whatever that small win could be. You know? You're gonna party like a rockstar, I'm gonna party with you. Right.,- I try to enjoy their successes. So it's a bunch of little things because, I think that's what, that's what builds a good leader. Yeah, I like that. What are you- I mean, I- What are you bringing to the- I, I've been really... You know, I've said it a couple of times, but I've really been sort of sitting on that small, consistent actions, like the handing out the paychecks. Like, what's some small act that I can do consistently that could start, um, you know... I mean, I think, I think I have trust on my team but, you know, to strengthen that- Yeah and grow that, I'm trying to think about what, what could that small, consistent action be. And then again, learning what their motivations are individually so that, you know, I can, I can speak to that, And I, and I like what you said, adding celebrating, partying like a rock star for whatever, whatever wins there are, big and small. Yeah, we have to enjoy people's wins. You know? It's, it's so important. Everybody has different wins. I try, 'cause sometimes I'm in, like, deep into something else, and I tell myself, "No. No, we're gonna enjoy each win." The next question is what's the sign you'd put on a billboard, or what's the message you'd put on a billboard? I think you said it. What was it that you said that I was like, "Yeah, we gotta change the tagline." It was a circle of safety. But I thought you said, you had said before- What was mine? in one of our drives that you would put on a billboard, "We are Spartans." Yeah. Yeah, maybe that's the afternoon me. The morning me- it's circle of trust. Afternoon me, it is grab the shield and the sword. Don't forget the helmet. We are Spartans. Yeah. And I think for me, one of the billboard le- kind of message that stood out for me was, uh, also we are Spartans, but about, learn the rules, but know when to break them. I agree you know, it, and I think it said in the book, um, you know, it's important to know and follow the rules because that creates order, that creates a strong foundation, et cetera. But that there are absolutely times when you have to throw those rules away and break them in order for there to be success. Yes. I think that was the Johnny Bravos. Was that the Johnny Bravo story? Johnny Bravo. I can't believe we, we haven't talked about the Johnny Bravo story. All right. Tell the Johnny Bravo story. I don't remember exactly what, you know, but he was saving, he was saving infantry. They were under him. He knew it. He's flying blind. He had to go without his instruments. Some other people would have pulled out of there, but he knew from mountain to mountain it took X amount of seconds- And this man blindly flying, right? So that he can help and drop the bombs, so that he can save the in- the people, I think it was 21 men that were under him. He was counting one, two, three, and then he, he would pull up before hitting the mountainside. And as you're listening to it in your car, it's like, "Dio santo bendito," And then he told other pilots how to do it, and, and they saved their lives. To him, it was so much bigger than himself, and that really reminds me of not only... Because he could've been like, "Yeah, well, um, you know, I did my best." But no, no. He really went above and beyond for another team. And obviously there, it's lifesaving. Um- And, and, and that was another message in the book, right? That you create also a culture of courage, from the top down. And so because- Right. And- he did that, then the other, the other people- Pilots did it too flying up there started following him and doing the same. Yeah. Trusting him. They trusted him blindly, and, and- L- literally blindly, 'cause they couldn't see- Right, literally blindly in front of them And they started doing it too because they were like, "Well, he's doing it, and we trust him, and so we're, this needs to get done and we're gonna do it too." You are right. There are protocols in place. There are procedures in place. There are standards in place to keep us all safe, to keep us all marching forward, et cetera. But leaders have to know when those rules have to be broken, and Johnny Bravo knew when to do it. Yep. You gotta be like Johnny Bravo. So how would you rate the book on a gas tank level? So gas tank, we're doing, like, quarter, half, and 3/4? Yes. I would say 3/4. That's exactly where I'm at, 3/4. I think it was a really good book- Mm-hmm with a lot of great stories and a lot of great lessons, but again, it fell a little bit short for me on the how do you deal with when you're doing all of that and it's still not falling into line? How do you deal- Uh-huh with those, those outliers? So that's the only reason it's not getting a, a full tank from me. I concur. But I would say that, this is definitely a book that you should have in your leadership library, and highly recommend it. I agree. I think it definitely opens your mind and helps you think of yourself as a leader. It helps you think of those before you, those leaders that have inspired you, and those who have taught you negative lessons, too. Because just like we do at home, at work we should break chains. We should break any chains and lose anything that doesn't serve us from bad leaders that we've had in the past. The other message throughout the book was everybody is a leader. You know? It's not about rank or title. Everybody has the ability to act as a leader. And at the same time, everybody's a team member. So you also have to be willing to regardless of rank or title, pull up your sleeves and protect the people next to you, you know? Absolutely. So. Ah, absolutely. With that, because I'm in the garage. Look at that. I can't believe I got here. Wow, I still have a little bit to go. I probably have- I can't believe I got here like another 10 minutes. But that was awesome. Our conversation lasted your entire ride. Look at that. Look at that. All right. Well, if anybody has read the book and has any thoughts they wanna share, comments, questions, feel free to email us at thedailydrivebookclub@gmail.com, and we will get back to you. If you enjoyed our conversation and want to join us for next time, we are reading Good to Great by Jim Collins. Vanessa says the tagline is, "Why some companies make the leap and others don't." Vamos. All right, see you later. That's our commute for today Got a question, a book suggestion, or something on your mind? Email us at thedailydrivebookclub@gmail.com. Show notes for this episode are in the description. Thanks for driving with us on The Daily Drive Book Club. Keep driving, keep learning, keep leading. We'll see you on the next one. And by the way, no laws were broken during this recording. That's a whole nother podcast.