Multipliers by Liz Wiseman: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter (Book Summary & Discussion)

The Daily Drive Book Club
📖 Multipliers: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter by Liz Wiseman

Episode Summary

What's the difference between a leader who makes everyone around them smarter — and one who, often without even realizing it, makes people feel smaller? In this episode, we dig into Liz Wiseman's Multipliers, and we'll be honest: this one hit differently. It's the most concrete, actionable leadership book we've covered so far, and we're already putting it to work.

In This Episode

• The core idea: Multipliers unlock genius in others — Diminishers shrink it — and the difference in output can be 2x
• The five disciplines of a Multiplier: Talent Magnet, Liberator, Challenger, Debate Maker, and Investor
• The neuroscience behind it all — what happens to your brain under a fear-based leader vs. a challenging one
• The Accidental Diminisher: the idea generator, the rescuer, the optimist, the pace setter — and why good intentions can still shrink a room
• The waterline concept: when to step back and when to step in
• The 51% rule — giving your people real ownership, and why it works
• The five chips: a practical tool for big talkers (we're not naming names)
• Henry Kissinger's "Is this your best work?" — and why he never read it the first three times
• The rugby coach who asked "What do you see?" instead of telling his team what to fix
• Philippe Petit and the high-wire: why greatness requires shifting your weight to the uncertain foot
• Our Gas Tank rating for the book

Our Rating

⛽ Gas Tank: 4/4 — Full tank, and the gas is pouring out of the car. We're already revisiting this one.

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Transcript

0:00

You're listening to the Daily Drive Book Club. A leadership audiobook experience where two leaders turn their commute into a classroom. I'm Vanessa. I'm Yanet. Sit in traffic with us as we drive, learn, and lead together. All right. Well, I-95, three right lanes blocked before 836. Whoo, we're gonna be on here for a while. So this week on the Daily Drive Book Club, we are discussing Multipliers: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter by Liz Wiseman. So Yanet, do you wanna do your little synopsis of the book? Sure thing. Good morning, everybody. So multipliers, in essence, people who are multipliers make people smarter. Diminishers make people smaller. When you leave a room with a multiplier, you feel that exact word. You feel multiplied. You feel the energy. You want to do better because you feel smarter. And when you're with a diminisher, it's unintentional sometimes, but you feel smaller, or you feel like, "Well, if they have it, then why should I even try?" So, the big picture of the book is multipliers can get two times out of their people what a diminisher can. And a diminisher is really shrinking the intelligence around them and not getting people to work to their full potential, when a multiplier actually expands your intelligence and stretches your mind So I think let's come right out the gate with the fact that we love this book. We can talk about the rating at the end. But I just wanna say, so far, this is my favorite book. We've said repeatedly before that, we wanted a little bit more about the how do you do X, Y, and Z, and this book was all about the how do you do X, Y, and Z. It really had a lot of concrete information about how you can be a multiplier and make sure that you're not a diminisher. I really, really enjoyed this book. This was the hardest book to hear or to listen to in the car because this is a master class on leadership. I wanted to take every note. So I was taking audio notes, but I'll be honest, this is one that we're going to revisit because that appendix E that she references in the book over and over, I'm gonna print it out. I, I need to revisit. I need to sit with it a few more times. So even on the podcast, we might come back to this one. This should've been a college class. Like, why didn't they offer this to me in my master's? So really this was a great book. It has concrete examples, like grab your pens and your markers and let's get to work. We're gonna do our best to try to cover, all of the gems in this book, but there's so much that we definitely won't be able to tease everything out in one episode, so I do see us revisiting this one, maybe a couple of times. All right let's get into it. What stood out for you and what did you love about this book? All right, from the beginning, I have to tell you, the idea of being a genius maker, I walked around for, three days like, "I'm a genius maker. I'm a genius maker." I didn't even know exactly what it meant, but that idea to me that I can help people be smarter, that I see brilliance in people that they might not see in themselves, that comes natural to me. Then she broke it down and I was like, "Oh my God, I have diminishing qualities," overall to me, being a genius maker excited the heck out of me. So what was it for you? Well, the whole time I was reading this book, I kept texting you, "Oh my God, you're a multiplier." The entire time reading this book, I saw you in all the examples of being a multiplier. I do think a lot of this comes natural to you, and that's why you're such a good leader. Oh, Chubs, thank you. I try. And I really liked that, in the beginning, she challenges the reader or the listener to see themselves in the diminisher. And we'll get to that, but you know, we all wanna see the good in ourselves. But she really wanted us to try to see where we might have diminishing qualities that we don't realize. So we'll get into that a little bit more. But- I don't even know how to pinpoint what I loved most about this book. It was just one thing after another. I really loved that, at the end of each chapter, she had those experiments. So again, real concrete things, like you can try this, try that, do this, do that. So you didn't just leave with overarching concepts. You really walked away with almost like a to-do list. But- Well, I'll tell you. I love to-do lists. She is the first female author we listened to. Yes. And she was a little different. First, she started by thanking her children. Then she knows we're busy, so we half-listen or half-read because we're busy, and we're running around doing 38 things at once. So at the end, she's like, "Settle down, and let me tell you what I just told you." And then she gives you a little list, 'cause she knows us. It's like, oh, my God, she's our friend. She knows I only half-listened, so here's the list. Five things, and you're like, "Five things I need to remember." You know? I thought that was genius. She was making geniuses. See? She was genius-making. And then another little thing she did that I was like she put all the science methodology crapola, which is very important stuff, I don't wanna diminish it, right? It's very important, but she put it to the back. We'll hear it later on. So that was good, too she talked about the five disciplines. I have a little bit of that. Yeah, yeah. The talent magnet, liberator. Challenger, the debate maker. Yanet, that's me. Debate maker. And the investor. That's the premise of the whole book, the five disciplines of being a multiplier. And they had the opposites that go with those. Yeah, I didn't pay much attention to that part. So talk about the five disciplines and then I'll come in with the opposite diminishing thing. Sure thing. The talent magnet is people that find great people. Those leaders that you're like, "Wow, how do they get great people?" And it's, they build a reputation for being a talent magnet. That's really important. The liberator creates safety, allows people to think, challenges them. And that's an important one for me, and here is a scientific thing that I wanted to talk about because it's something that I think is important, is the amygdala versus the prefrontal cortex. It's really about neuroscience. So when leaders create fear, your amygdala activates. When you're scared, your survival mode kicks in, creativity decreases, learning decreases, and, everything goes wrong. If you've ever wondered why you have a certain leader that whenever you work with them, you make mistakes, you're not at your best, you don't really understand them, that's your amygdala activated. And then on the other front, when you're being challenged but in a way that makes you feel good, your prefrontal cortex kicks in, and then you're able to problem solve. Your reasoning kicks in, creativity and innovation kicks in. That's important because I also see some of this, as being a mom with kids, but also see it as a leader Oh yeah, I have a friend who listens to our podcast, and she leads a household. And she's like, "This is great for parenting," yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. That's why we're gonna read some kids books, because I think all books can teach us something, I think we learn things in children's books that we can absolutely use in leadership, and vice versa. There's things in leadership that we can use to run the troop at home. That's right. So I was talking about, the challenger is next. Okay. Creates opportunities that stretch people. So the, the boss that stretches you, the debate maker, gets the best ideas on the table, really wants a debate. Both the challenger and the debate maker want you to really think about things and debate them, and the investor gives you ownership. Did that resonate with you, the whole 51%, and if you're really gutsy, take it to 75? Yes. I thought that that was really important. So the premise is that you give the person 51% of the vote, and it talked about how They show up different when they know that they are responsible for the majority of the decision-making and are accountable to the success of the project and you know, when I was listening to that, I was like, "That's amazing. I would love to do that, but that's scary for me," right, for certain things. And this is about the waterline. You, you wanna talk about the waterline? Sure. Oh, yep, that ties in here. And I don't know how she got here. Was it a boat? Was it the Navy? I don't know how she- It was a boat or a ship. I'm not sure. Yes, it was a ship. So pretty much anything above the waterline, your people, can make mistakes, right? And you have to let them, make their mistakes. So anything above the line that they can actually make a mistake, that is, where you're not supposed to step in. You're supposed to help when they ask, but not step in and do. However, those things that you know are under the waterline, meaning they can sink the ship, it's the more dangerous things. That's your waterline. That's where you step in at the end, and you take a look. You still might not give them the answer. You might give it back to them with more and ask more questions, right? But that's when you have to know that those you have to step in for. That's what I gathered from that. Yeah. And so with that whole idea of giving them 51% of the vote, I was feeling a little stressed out about that, but then when the whole waterline concept, I was like, "Okay, When it's below the waterline, that's when you step in." And so then that made me feel a little bit better using those two concepts together. I was gonna talk about the diminisher side of those things. For the multiplier, it's the talent magnet, but on the flip side, the diminisher is an empire builder. Instead of magnifying the greatness of people, they just hoard people as resources to be used. Then instead of the liberator, they're more of a tyrant, so they create, a culture of that tension, that whole amygdala thing that you were talking about, so people feel scared and nervous and definitely not magnified. Instead of The challenger, the diminisher side is the know-it-all. So they're the ones with all the answers, and they're always showcasing that they're the smartest person in the room, instead of challenging people to help them bring out their own genius. And then instead of the debate maker, they're just the decision maker, right? They don't encourage the discussion. They just make the decision so everybody throws their hands up and they're like, just let them do it. They're gonna decide ultimately, so, we don't have to worry about it." And then instead of the investor, they're micromanaging. So instead- Uh-huh of putting their effort into building people up, they put all their energy into doing it and being on top of everybody and just making sure that everybody's executing what they, ultimately want executed. And you know, these are important. I think, earlier in, in one's career,, you're just working and trying to learn and trying to get ahead And trying to make yourself better. Eventually, you have to know yourself. On a personal note, somewhere along the line of my career, I realized that if a leader wanted someone to execute exactly what they wanted, I was not for them. It's a hard realization cause boy does it cause you to bump your head. So in my case, I realized as an employee, I need leaders who will tell me what they want, obviously, right, guide me into a right direction, and then just let me be and let me create. So I try to do the same for my teams, of giving them the space to create. The other section that I really liked was the accidental diminisher, and I said that, she challenged you to, maybe you're not an outright diminisher- Uh-huh but you may have some qualities and, practices that may be accidentally diminishing. And so- she talked about the person that's always tossing out ideas, so they have so many ideas that other people don't feel like they can share their ideas. I'm laughing 'cause I'm the idea guy. Oh, that's a diminishing quality. You have to know yourself, right? Yeah. Things that you may be doing and you think this is a good quality, right? You're throwing out all these ideas but not realizing how it might be landing and impacting other people, so that's why she was, encouraging us to think about how we may accidentally be diminishing. Well, and actually, I started talking about this with my team. A soft idea versus a hard idea. Yeah. Just so that I'm able to also express myself. Like, I can't hold all my ideas in my brain, I'll explode. But I have to be able to say, "This is just a soft idea. Maybe we toss it around," and it's not a hard idea. A hard idea is, "Hey, let's set, get together, put some pen to paper, let's, you know, what's the problem? What are we looking for?" The way I heard it was that this is a suggestion, something for you to think about. Right. Versus a hard idea is like, this is a directive and something I need you to execute You know? I could see- Right, but some folks take any idea and they think it's a hard one. Like, "Oh, we gotta do this." Right. and then the well, I guess they're kinda similar, the always being on. So energetic and super present, but that person takes up all the oxygen in the room, so- Mm other people just kinda sit back because they don't feel like they can compete with that energy. So I think those two are kinda similar. And then there was the rescuer that jumps in- Mm-hmm to save people. So, you know, you were talking about that before, right? Like, sometimes you have to let, just let them fail. But the accidental diminisher doesn't let people fail. They, they step in to rescue all the time. And then there was the pace setter. That one is like- Uh-huh they move so fast and they're so far ahead that other people give up because they're like, I can't keep up with that pace," you know? Mm-hmm. The rapid Responder. That they answer so fast that they don't give others the opportunity to even think, And then this one was interesting about the optimist. Do you remember that conversation about the optimist that her boss told her? "Stop saying we can do this. How hard can it be?" Remember? Yep. Um- Yeah, she accidentally shuts down discussion when she makes everything sound easy. Right, and she thought she was being like, "Rah-rah, we can do this. How hard can it be? We're awesome," and her boss told her one day, "I need you to stop saying that, and I need you to acknowledge that what we're doing is difficult. Because, dismissing that the work is difficult, then, that can be diminishing for the team." So I found that really- Interesting and important. Oh, and then- And- There was the protector that shields people and I saw myself in that one. Mm. I saw myself- The banyan tree. You're the banyan tree- where everybody just goes under you because you've got them. You're gonna be there. Yeah. So I, you know, I mean, I saw myself in a couple of, you know, I think a little bit in everything, but not, the one that- Mm-hmm stood out the most was, was definitely the protector. And then there's the perfectionist,, that corrects everything. That's not me. That's not me. That's- Nah, that's not me. Yo no tengo tiempo para eso. Yeah. And, you know, in this section, and because remember I am a debate maker, she talks about energy and that energy can be contagious. And that's definitely something I disagree with. I'll probably reread that section and explore more, because I agreed with almost everything she said, but I am a debate maker, right? And when she talked about energy, I would challenge her that- I bring energy, and it's something that I pride myself. I didn't know I did until people started pointing it out. But my energy can shift, and has shifted rooms. I'm proud of that. I'll die on that hill. Yeah. You know? And in the book she mentions it and I was like, "Ah, I disagree." I think that's what I was talking about before, that you take up all the energy in the room. Yeah, you take up all the energy in the room or something like that, and I get it. Listen, it leads me to the chips, and I'll jump in here and say the five chips 'cause, God, my poor team, they're like guinea pigs. For the folks that talk too much, I'm raising my hand right in my car here, you get five chips. You get five chips and you get to use them in a big meeting, but you don't get any more than that, right? But then as she's talking, I said, "Interestingly enough, I would give five chips to everyone on the team, not just the big talkers that fill the room." So it also challenges us that if you're the leader and you have five chips, how many of those should be questions instead of answers? Right. Right? So it's like really think about should you be waiting for the right time to ask the team a deeper question. But- I also saw it, on the other hand is maybe others who are hesitant about giving their ideas or asking their questions, it's going to encourage them to do so. So interesting on the chips, I almost forgot the chips part. But anyway, along the lines of that, there was the whole idea of some leaders fill the room, and I know I can, and these are one of those things that I'm gonna watch out with myself. Then they talked about, talking up your mistakes, and I feel like you do that, too. What is that? You don't remember that? It said- Like, just stating my mistakes? Well, it said to make sure that you let people know that you make mistakes so that they feel that they can make mistakes, too. Right. And listen, and adding some humor into it. That, I was like, "Oh my God, this is me." Yeah, I am. I'm, you know what? I have zero shame in bringing up my mistakes, and zero shame in laughing at myself. Like, I don't mind it at all. And I, saw in this book, oh my goodness, I'm not alone. Humor is important in leadership. At least in my leadership it is., I can't take myself so seriously, and I think sometimes we take ourselves so seriously. It's serious work, but we're human, you know? And I think a little bit of laughter can go a long way sometimes. Yeah. I wanna take a step back. Wait, 'cause I feel like we missed one thing from the beginning, and I wanted to add it before we continue. The logic of multiplication versus the logic of addition, logic of multiplication is to unlock everybody's, creativity So you're multiplying what they know. So one plus one is no longer two. One plus one can be five, can be 10. You're multiplying the people and the resources that you have. Where in a diminisher is one plus one is two. So sometimes a diminisher needs more people on the team, and hasn't fully used his or her resources that are standing there in front of them. I thought that was interesting because also speaks to how I prefer to lead, I really assess what I have, the people and also the tools, and how can we multiply what we already have, really kick those tires, whether it's with programs or with people and their brains, and how do we stretch that? So in that case, she does mention that when you work for a multiplier, sometimes you're like, "Oh, I give more than 100%." And at first in science it's how could you possibly give 100%? Well, guess what? Yes, people grow and actually can get smarter. So that is where that multiplying effect takes place. You were just reminding me. I think it was the CEO from Gymboree, where he challenged them. Mm-hmm. It was something about the price per share and that he set the challenge. And everybody thought he was crazy because it was such an astronomical increase from, where they were. And he didn't say how they were gonna do it. He, he handed it to the team and he was like, "You guys figure it out, but this is the mark we need to hit." And not only did they hit it, but they surpassed it, and then he raised it again, and they hit it again. The challenge was not just, "We gotta hit this," but I believe it was also, with no additional resources. So using- Right, which is, all of it is scary when you, when you think about it. You're like, "Excuse me. How exactly?" It's hard. Yeah. There was another story that really stood out to me, I think it was the rugby coach. Okay. And that he had led his team to, an incredible winning record over decades. And it talked about his style if they lost a game, he would ask them, "What do you see?" Hmm. You know, instead of telling them we gotta fix this, we gotta fix that, we gotta do more of this, we gotta do less of that," he was asking them. His whole thing was they're on the field. They see things from vantage points that I can't see from where I'm standing, on the sideline. Mm-hmm. So he was asking them, "What do you see? What needs to change? How could we have done this better?" That simple question of how does this look to you? And I have two stories. Well, one is a theme and one is a story. One is, the theme of, different styles. A multiplier isn't necessarily warm. Creating intelligence and asking people to stretch isn't necessarily nice. It's what's right. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that it's nice. So styles vary, and also the styles in our employees vary. I was looking for a specific of what about an employee that brings out the diminisher in you, in her Q&A at the end, she does talk about an employee that perhaps you feel isn't working to the best of their ability or is very different in styles from you. And you know what? As a leader, you have to dig deep because you have to continue to believe that that person is intelligent and that that person has something to offer that you haven't found yet. Right. So she does ask you almost to, shift your point of view, maybe as the coach did, and say, "How can I get more out of this person? And meet them where they're at. How can I challenge them? You really have to get creative and dig deep before you truly decide, "Okay, this person's not the right fit for the team." But it does challenge the leader, when someone is underperforming for the leader to dig deep, to try to find that person's genius. I think it's a good opposite to what you were just saying. There was a whole chapter on what if you're trying to be the multiplier but your boss, the person that you report to, is a diminisher, and it talked about how to handle it. And it's basically encouraging you to use the same multiplier concepts with your boss. You know, asking the questions, challenging them, so I thought that that chapter was really interesting as well. You know what's interesting about that chapter? So most of this has a lot of science behind it, like multiplying people, multiplying their intelligence. She has all these charts and all these things you can follow. She said, to be a multiplier, there's a science behind it, but to be a multiplier when your boss is a diminisher, there has to be an art. So it's science and art to have to handle a diminishing boss. She took a deeper dive, so let's put a little pin in that one, 'cause that one could be a whole other episode. It could be a series. Yeah. And I think I wanna close with this one, with this idea that she repeated, I think twice. She talked about it at the beginning, she talked about it at the end. Philippe, he is, a, high-wire artist, he walked the wire in some of the most famous buildings across the world. Two of those buildings were the Twin Towers in New York City. And he talked about the shift and the weight. When you are on the building and you have one foot on the wire and you have to shift your weight to that foot, to the uncertainty of that foot, all the forces in your mind are telling you, "Keep your weight on the back foot," the one that is still on the building, the safe one, the one you know, but in your mind you know that to be great, you have to take the step on the wire. That was it. That w- that one for me really put things in perspective. I'm not getting on any high wire, but, um- You know. I don't know. Metaphorically, metaphorically speaking, sometimes it's scary to take steps. As you said, sometimes it's scary to give people real true ownership of something. Yeah. I think in order for us to grow and stretch- We gotta be uncomfortable I am not getting on a high wire either. But we have to leave comfort zones and take the risk. Yes. Amen to that. What didn't hit for you? My big mouth already covered it. It was the whole piece of energy and filling room. From the previous book we read, Good to Great, my energy has helped me move the flywheel. So I wanna explore that deeper. It didn't hit 100%. It doesn't mean I disagree, but I'd like to challenge it a little bit more. The part that didn't, it's not that it didn't hit for me or that I didn't agree with it, but I just kinda was like, "Eh, I'm not sure about this," was the whole debate making. And, generally I get it and I agree, but she talked about some examples about asking people to take the opposite perspective so they're, challenging their thinking. And I, I don't know, some of that felt a little forced for me. Yeah. You're right, I wrote it down. She assumes that everybody is good at critical thinking and that everybody can control their emotions. She obviously is not in a room filled with Cubans. I love Cubans. I'm Cuban, I can say that. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I need to learn more, but I couldn't see when I was reading that how I would implement that in a way that didn't feel forced,- It felt more like an exercise to open people's minds and not real work. Right. Almost like a, like a workshop. You know what I mean? Yes. But with real work, ¿quién tiene tiempo? Who has time for this? If I had time to do that every time, por favor, you know? Right. But maybe as a workshop I would consider it. So, what can you implement on Monday morning? And you maybe have already implemented it, I've implemented a couple things. I am more intentional about creating genius. So I've given my folks a quiz that, that helps me dig deeper into their genius. And, we will discuss that more as a team and really dig deeper. I want to be able to adjust my point of view to help stretch their genius. So I've already started that. Yeah, that was mine too. It says everybody has a nascent genius, and you really need to tap into what is that genius in each member of your team. And I feel like for some people I kind of know, but I think it's important to know what they think their nascent genius is and then figure out how to tap, into that better. So that's something that I definitely wanna start implementing right away. So maybe you need to give me a copy of that survey. Of the questions? Yes, absolutely so I can use it. The last question is: what's your billboard message from this book? To create genius, stop being the answer, start being the question. Nice, nice. tell us what your billboard would be for this book. You remember the person that had the sign on their door? Saying, "Ignore me as needed in order to get your job done." I think that's really difficult, because again, you wanna check things, you wanna make sure that they're right before they go out the door, but you don't wanna be an obstacle to completion, and so, I would like to put that on, I don't know if a billboard, but at least a sign on my door so that my people know, ultimately you're responsible and don't let me be an obstacle. So- There we go that's my billboard. All right. Mm-hmm. Actually, I wanted to add something because this goes back to my editorial roots. When we edit, you can circle or mark and put AWK when you're making an edit. The person knows that that sentence or sentence structure is awkward. In this book, the author was working for someone who was actually a mentor and she couldn't fix this sentence for them. And finally circled it, put AWK, fixed other things, but gave it back. And she felt her mentor walking down the hall, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, and said, "If you're going to give me an AWK, you give me a FIX." So really is don't tell me something's awkward or don't tell me there's a problem, give me the fix. Give me the solution. So definitely wanted to bring that up. What do you think? Yeah, I'm not in editing, but, early in my career, one of my mentors gave me, similar advice. She just said, "Don't ever walk into a room, bringing problems that you don't have recommended solutions for." And, you know, and I took that to heart, and that has served me well throughout the years. Absolutely. Oh my goodness, I almost forgot the story about Henry Kissinger, the diplomat and master negotiator. To his people, he would ask, "Is this your best work?" And I saw myself in him because I ask that all the time. I want my folks to know that they can bring me their ideas, they can bring me what they're cooking, to show me if they're hitting the mark, but when they bring me their final, that has to be their best work. And a little trick that, Kissinger did is he never even read it, and the young man who was doing the report went back, like, three times doubting himself. And finally Kissinger said, Okay, so is this your best work He said, "Yes, sir." He's like, "Okay, now I'm gonna read it." So then Yeah the guy was a little disappointed, like, "Really? You never even read it?" What a lesson in leadership if it's your final it has to be as final as possible. Yeah, I love that story, and it really made me think how powerful is that to put back on the person to self-assess, is this your best work? Uh-huh. And then for that person to be like, "You know what? It's not. Give it back to me. I'll bring it back." And for that to happen three times, It made me think- Uh-huh have I always turned in my best work? That's definitely something that I'll be incorporating. And some people say, "Listen, I just don't have time, and work gets complicated. I'm not going to say it doesn't. And it is unfortunate when sometimes it's not your best, it's just good enough to get by that day. Right. And that's a, that's a whole other podcast, but we can leave that one there. And I understand- Yeah where there could be instances of both. Yeah, for sure. So gas tank rating. This is a full tank because I haven't even finished exploring this book. Yeah. Full tank. I think it's a full tank, and the gas is pouring out of the car because, it's just so much. Again, we definitely need to revisit this one and dig into some of the concepts a little deeper. I would highly encourage people to read this book. It's really, really, really fantastic and, there's so many ways to be able to use this in many parts of your life, not just, managing a team. Agreed. All right. That's it. All right, everybody. that's a wrap for the Daily Drive Book Club, and stay tuned to our social channels to learn what's coming next. Okay, darling, That's our commute for today Got a question, a book suggestion, or something on your mind? Email us at thedailydrivebookclub@gmail.com. Show notes for this episode are in the description. Thanks for driving with us on The Daily Drive Book Club. Keep driving, keep learning, keep leading. We'll see you on the next one. And by the way, no laws were broken during this recording. That's a whole nother podcast.