Episode 9: Pregnancy after Birth Trauma with Rhiannah Pohlman

Rhiannah Pohlman (rhiannahrose.com.au) is a naturopath and counsellor supporting women navigating pregnancy and birth after a traumatic experience. Trained by Dr Catherine Bell, she is a birth cartographer, helping women map their births, advocate for their choices and build contingency plans, alongside nervous system regulation and birth story integration. She brings all of this together through Flourish, her pregnancy support program.

Rhiannah was called to this work after two traumatic births of her own, each one teaching her something different about what she needed to feel safe. She has taken those lived experiences and built a program to support other women planning for birth after trauma.

Rhiannah's first birth was a rural hospital induction that stretched over three days, ending in forceps, a vacuum delivery and a fourth-degree tear, with little support or referral afterwards. The second, years later, began as a healing natural labour just days before a scheduled caesarean, before turning into an emergency when her son's heart rate dropped. Two very different experiences. Both, she says, shaped everything she now does with women.

In this conversation Rhiannah shares her birth stories, what she learnt and what changed in her as a result. The beauty in it all is that she still believes in birth and its power for transformation. We talk about what birth trauma actually is, how it can show up in your system, the importance of care providers using trauma-informed language, and what it takes to rebuild self-trust before trying again.

In this episode:

•Rhiannah’s own two birth stories, and what she learned from each

•What birth trauma actually is, and why it’s about how you felt, not what happened

•How birth trauma can show up in your day-to-day life, sometimes years later

•Why she still believes in birth, and its power for transformation

•The importance of care providers using trauma-informed language

•Rebuilding self-trust before trying again

Content note: this episode discusses birth trauma in detail. If that’s not something you’re up for today, look after yourself and come back to this one another time

CONNECT WITH RHIANNAH

rhiannahrose.com.au

Instagram: @rhiannah_rose

Flourish is Rhiannah's full pregnancy support offering, blending naturopathy, nervous system work, counselling and birth mapping for women preparing for birth after a traumatic experience.

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• The Birth Map: a structured decision-making and communication tool created by Dr Catherine Bell, birthmap.life
• Birth cartography: mapping the different pathways a birth can take, so decisions can be made from an informed, rather than reactive, place
• Nervous system regulation: working with the body's threat response, not just talking through what happened
• Trauma-informed language: the words and framing used by care providers that can either support or retraumatise a woman

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Women Who Guided Me podcast. I've met some unbelievable women along the way, and I can't let them go. I don't want to let them go. Like, I want to keep talking to them and I want to put their voices out there. And that is something that's really beautiful about the journey is you actually get to grow your village of wise women before the babies here. And I think I think that's a really nice experience. Before we get into it, I just wanted to flag that this episode covers birth trauma in some detail, including a difficult labour experience and physical injury. So if it doesn't feel like the right time for you to listen to something like this, please come back to it and take care of yourself. So today I'm talking to Rihanna Polman, who's a naturopath and counsellor. She works with women navigating pregnancy and birth after a traumatic experience. So she blends neitropathy, nervous system work, and counselling in her package, which is called Flourish. So in this episode, she talks about her two very different births, both of which she considers to be traumatic. And she has learnt a lot from both of those, and she shares her lessons in this episode with me. You can find her at RihannaRose.com.au and I'll link everything in the show notes. So this episode isn't about necessarily what went wrong. It's about what came after, how Rihanna rebuilt trust in her body and now how she supports women to to do the same. She wholeheartedly believes in birth and in women's power to heal from birth trauma, which I found really inspiring. And she's built her own her whole career around this. So if you felt like birth broke something in you, this is proof that it can you can rebuild and and maybe in a better way, a different way. As always, before we begin this episode, I would like to acknowledge the Wajagnungar people as the traditional custodians of the land on which I am talking to you from today. And I pay my respect to elders, past and present. I honour the enduring wisdom and cultural practices of First Nations peoples whose knowledge of birth nurturing and community care has been shared across generations. All right, let's get into it. All right, Rihanna, welcome to the podcast. So cool to have you on. Thank you. I'm so excited. The first question I like to ask people is what is your background story and what drew you to work with women in this way?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah, it definitely wasn't my first intention when I started studying for to become a naturopath. Um, I sort of, I think like many people, you fall into this work from your own experience. And so I had a traumatic birth. And yeah, do you want me to sort of go into that deeply? Yeah, into those experiences. Yeah, if that's um something you're comfortable with, yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I loved being pregnant, it was very easy for me, I felt. It was very easy breezy. And then so he's almost 11. And I feel like back then it was kind of you, if you were overdue, you were getting induced. And it was just the done thing. It wasn't really a conversation, it was like, let's just do this, especially it was a rural hospital. And so I get to yeah, 41 weeks, and we start the induction. You know, there was no other real reason. It was just like, let's do it. And so that took three days, and that was using the gel. So I was just sort of getting that labor would start, things would slow down the next day, do it again and repeat, and then it got to the Friday, and then it was like, okay, well, we want to have this baby today, we don't want this to go into the weekend staffing, all of those sort of issues coming up, and so that was when I had a sort of broke my waters, stretched my cervix, I had the drip going in, and yeah, labor has started, and I wasn't really even getting a break between contractions, it was just rolling awful, really quite painful, and I'm getting this urge to push, and I tell the midwife this, and she's like, Oh, well, we'll get a doctor up here and see what's going on. And he comes in, does his vaginal examination, tells me, I haven't felt you before, but I'm guessing you're probably still about four centimetres. And so I was like, Okay, like very odd. And so the midwife is like, you know, you can't be pushing yet, we want to not do that. Yeah, really not very supportive. And so goes on a couple more hours, things aren't really progressing. And I had when I was probably about 16, I watched my mum have her fourth baby, and that was it turned into an emergency cesarean, like they both almost died, and I was like, I don't want to get to that point. Like, I'm calling it now, let's get me a C section. So I like sign the forms, you know, it's another couple of hours, and as they're wheeling me down to the OR, the midwife's changeover, and the midwife that comes on, she was like my favorite midwife. She can see that I'm needing to push and having this urges, and she's like, All right, when we get in there, we're going to just like check you again, see what's going on. And so I get in there and they're like, You're 10 centimetres. Do you want to try and push this baby out? And I was like, How long is that going to take? Like, it had already been all day, three days even. And so I pushed and I pushed for two hours and nothing was happening. They said that his heart rate was starting to drop, but when I've like looked back at birth notes, it didn't really look that way. Um, so they said, We're just going to use the vacuum. No like risk benefits, nothing. I didn't know anything about. I was like, okay. Um, they did that. He came out, I've had a fourth degree tear. So I end up being repaired under anesthetic. He was taken away with my hubby. And then finally, you know, a few hours later, I get to hold him again and start that journey of yeah, recovery. And everyone, you know, sort of said, Wow, like that was so traumatic. And you know, I'm like, Yeah, like it was, that wasn't great. And but like that was it. They didn't refer me to anything. Like, even Physio was like, just do your pelvic floor exercises, and like that was it. So I just kind of struggled for a couple of years. I um they said to me, You'll probably have incontinence and all of these issues. And I was like, Okay, that's my new normal. And you know, it did become my normal. And I thought, yeah, there was nothing that I could do. But I kept having these breakdowns, you know, and then I'm having like flashbacks, and my husband's like, You need to get help. So I was like, Okay. And we had moved to the city by this point. So I find a new doctor, you know, I start seeing a psychologist, a physio, which then turns into seeing a colorectal surgeon, and they suggest, you know, we could look at doing another repair to sort of see if we can improve these things and improve your symptoms, but that I should finish my family first if that's something that I want to do. So by this point, it was almost four years since my first son. And so we decided, yeah, that we would try and have another baby. I also lost my grandma during that time, so it was like you just looked at life differently. Grief it changes things, and I was like, okay, you know, I feel felt more ready, I felt more prepared. That's like the great thing about the hindsight of having a traumatic birth, is you know what you want to be different the next time. But I kind of went into that next birth, just avoiding everything rather than facing it or doing what I probably really would have wanted was to try another vaginal birth. But I was like, I'll just have a scheduled C-section. That's what all of the health professionals are telling me I should do. I'll just do that. So days after I finished my semester at uni, just days before um my scheduled C-section, I went into labor with my second son. And so that part was actually quite healing to have had yeah, that natural labor.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Um, I ended up laboring until I was fully dilated by the time they could get me into the OR for the C-section that I was there to have. And I get into the OR again and they're like, Oh, you're fully dilated. Do you want to try and push this baby out? I'm like, no, that is not what I came for this time. Um, so yeah, had the C-section and then that turned into an emergency because my second son, his heart rate was dropping, and that got quite scary. Um, so they had to get him out quickly, and then again I was just I was knocked out again to be repaired because I was just like screaming like it was painful. It was it was not a great experience. And so two very different births that also had like weird parallels. Um but then I was yeah, just sort of on another healing journey, and that sort of picked up for me more so in the last few years. So he is now, my second son is six, yeah, and so I've just spent that last few years really like working on my gut health and which is a big part of you know having that fourth degree tear. It's all so connected, and it just fueled my fire, fueled my passion. Because during this time, you know, I was studying and became a naturopath and knew I wanted to help other women who had been through the same thing. And I didn't want them to feel how I did, you know. I felt so alone, I felt like it was all my fault, um, that I was broken. And yeah, I didn't want other people to feel that way. And so I sort of yeah, started my business and then did the counseling masters because I felt like if I want to specialise in birth trauma, that's sort of a duty of care that I felt like I had to um, you know, upskill in that way. And here I am now, bringing it all together into like one thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah. Wow, like honestly, such strength to go through both of those experiences and come out the other side wanting it to be different for other women.

unknown 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Like that's really, really powerful. And you've learned so much through lived experience and now through working with other women. Yeah. And I um when we've spoken previously, you said something that I found like super moving is like you still believe in birth.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Where does that come from, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

I feel like honestly, it's like deeply spiritual and ancestral, like yeah. Yeah, I just I just believe in it so much that this is what we were made to do when women are so powerful, and to then yeah, go back, you know. I hear so many stories that you know, the most traumatic stories, and you're like, wow, they still went and did it again because like women are that powerful, and yeah, I still I still believe in birth, and I think I'm not going to have any more, but yeah, you know, it would be for the wrong reasons, I feel like, for myself to try and prove something, and I don't need to do that. I can yeah, still hold that belief and help other women get that.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, so powerful. Are we able to talk a little bit about um what what is the definition of birth trauma? And I've spoken to other guests about this, is it's it's not it's not necessarily the type of birth. It's not like if you you have this, this, and this, then you should be traumatized, right? What actually defines trauma?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, so like you can look at it as its definition, which is physical or psychological damage relating to childbirth. And like I always like to say though, it is the whole experience because trying to conceive can feel you know hard and traumatic. Um, pregnancy can bring up things for you. You then you've got the labor, the birth, postpartum, even like people's after experiences in hospital can be what was most traumatizing for them. And so it is the whole experience. But most importantly, what it is, it's like it's about how you felt. It's not about what happened, it's not like what you said, you know, it's not a tick, I was this and this. It's okay, I felt traumatized. I felt, you know, alone or scared. Um, you know, your life maybe being threatened, and then any sort of physical injury is a trauma on your body. So even just that can be the traumatic part for some.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's multi-dimensional in that way. So how might it show up in a woman's day-to-day, or how if if someone approaches you wanting to work with you for um another birth after a traumatic birth, how is it showing up in their system?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I think it definitely depends where they're at and if they've been able to like recognize it for themselves, because a lot of the time we just kind of avoid it and push it down. And, you know, you are busy as mums. So it's kind of like you don't give it the time or the space. And then if you do, you know, find yourself pregnant again and you're like, oh holy crap, what's happened? I you know, they realize then, oh my god, I have to do that again. What if it happens again? So it's a lot of those like fears, um, the what ifs, you know, like madly googling, and oh that was me so many nights up breastfeeding and like googling, like, what even is a fourth degree tear? Like, how did this happen?

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Those sort of little things.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

And that and women are outsourcing that to like AI, and like I've been in my own AI spiral. Um because they're not getting that support.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Um, from the the experts or even like listening to their own body. So how how do you work with women and how is how is it different when you've you've had that trauma the first or second time around or third time around? Uh what do you do differently with women and how do you work with them?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yeah, I think what we sort of start with it is at the nervous system level because they've had a traumatic experience. So it's like if you were in a car crash, you know, that's going to be psychologically traumatizing as well, and you're going to be supported and referred to counseling or psychology. And like childbirth, it's no different. If it was traumatizing, you still need to work on it at that nervous system level because your brain, you know, when I learned like that, how about how your brain is kind of your memories aren't being able to like filed away properly from that traumatic experience, and that is why you're having flashbacks because your your brain is trying to process it. Because rather otherwise you just kind of feel like broken and like it's your fault. And so understanding that is something I do a lot of that psychoeducation, and then working on the nervous system, cultivating that safety in their body again, and you know, that is the really boring daily rituals, you know. Meditation was a really big one for me. In between my births, I sort of learn a type of meditation, and I feel like that helps to bring me into a more regulated space where I can actually go, yeah, I could do this again. Um eating well, getting sunshine, you know, checking out your body, um, and seeing, you know, if you've got deficiencies because we're so depleted postpartum or in pregnancy when your body is prioritizing the baby. And so that as well. And then sort of the final part to that is doing birth mapping.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

And really getting an idea of all the different ways birth can take. Because I feel like that is like the big missing piece that was for my birth. It was like my first birth experience, my plan was I ticked a couple of boxes in the blue book and that was it. And it wasn't like, you know, I didn't know, okay, what does it mean if I'm induced? What does this mean if I choose a C-section? Like, even when I had chosen to say I want a C-section with the first time, I was like, so what even happens? Like, what happens next? I don't even know what that means. Yeah. And then the second time, not even thinking about, oh, if I do go into labor before my scheduled C-section date, what will that mean? Would I want to try? Like, I didn't have those thoughts, and that's what birth mapping can sort of give you is that opportunity to look at all of those different pathways and explore them while you are pregnant or even before then that second time.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

What do you think is the barrier to women exploring those different options the first time round? Because it it seems to be from what I when I speak to women, it it takes a uh unhelpful experience the first time around for them to then engage in the process. So something that I ponder is we're sort of saturated with information, but still go in potentially unsupported or unaware. So, what is that barrier that's stopping women, do you think, from like exploring the different pathways? That is such a good question.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

I feel like one is that we're sort of told, oh, don't scare new mums with your birth trauma stories. And every single woman that I have talked to that has had a traumatic birth, they one thing they say is I wish I knew. And that was my experience as well. Oh, I wish I knew the degrees of a tear. I wish I knew what a vacuum meant and what that could the risks of that. And so I think we kind of baby new mums and we don't want to scare them. And it's like, well, we are powerful women who can make empowered decisions. Give them that opportunity, and so it's kind of that societal conditioning of yeah, first-time mum, you get those rose-colored glasses, you only hear the really good stories, and that's sort of yeah, making that barrier.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, I that's been my experience too, seeing people be too scared to engage with any of the things that could go wrong. And I can I kind of see that perspective as well. You do want to surround yourself with positive birth stories and remind yourself this is a really natural process. But I do also think it's important that you understand the risks. I think the birth mapping in Catherine's work is just such a practical framework for how you can engage in that energetic. Um, but how can we support women to engage in something that's a little bit scary, but it's from a supported place as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

I was thinking about this yesterday as well. You can, you know, you can tell other mothers from a place of what did you learn from, you know, those traumatic experiences. And that's kind of like the approach that I've taken is not telling my story in a way to scare you, but okay, well, my experience was induction led to this, this, and this cascade of interventions. I would suggest not doing that, not being induced rather than scaring them about it. And just, yeah, what can you learn? What's your lessons and sharing it from that space rather than yeah, like we're not trying to scare women, but also needed that space to share it the story as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yeah, and you can you can influence it.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Like you can actually influence how your birth goes uh by being informed. So you so you would like you would sit with a client and help her map map all of those different pathways. And um, does that include how she she might interact with care providers as well? Like how she can advocate for herself and her choices?

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's when you want to have your like support person involved as well. Yeah. And having them be able to do that and advocate for you. Yeah. Um, that's a big thing, is like a lot of the women that have had traumatic births, a lot of them resent their partner because that maybe they didn't speak up. They also accepted the authority rather than advocating for them when you are in that space in labor, that liminality of you can't make decisions when you're in that space. So you do need, yeah, somebody to be there for you and being able to talk about that. But then having those conversations in pregnancy with your care providers as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yeah, do you think so? You must see people who come in and they're they feel disconnected from their body, they feel disconnected to themselves, maybe they don't trust themselves or their body's capability anymore. So, how do you help women reconnect with themselves and trust themselves again? And how did you do that?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Yeah, I feel like a lot of that actually happened for me more so after my second birth. I didn't trust myself that I could do it again and have a second vaginal birth. So I outsourced it to everyone, everything else. And yeah, so that rebuilding that self-trust is sort of the the second big part in my work. And that looks like, you know, the little moments, the little things where you can make micro commitments to yourself and actually following through. So you could be as simple as I'm gonna drink enough water today. And if you like don't do that, you're telling yourself that you can't trust yourself to do that. And so being able to find those really small things that you can do, you know you can do, rebuilding the trust. That way. And then really like connecting, you know, if your cycle has returned and before you're not pregnant yet, again, connecting with your menstrual cycle and listening to your body and the signs that it is telling you, you know, as simple as even, you know, if you're feeling hungry, um, and then eating, like it's all of these little things building that trust and even like in your voice, right? So, you know, if you get the wrong coffee order, are you telling them or are you just going to accept it? Because if you can't say, Oh, hey, this was wrong, are you going to show up that same way in the birthroom the next time?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah, but we're so we're encouraged to disconnect with uh as women from when we're when we're little girls. Yep. Like in disconnect without intuition. So this is this is the beauty of birthright. It's just something it's an opportunity to break a pattern that has been probably with you your whole life, it's be quite transformative. Um at the beginning you said after having your two birth experiences, it helped you understand what you wanted, and now you're helping women understand what they want. So, what from a personal perspective, what did you learn about yourself through those birth experiences and what you needed and wanted?

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Mmm, that's really nice. I think just coming off what you just said, is I learned how much I was a people pleaser and a perfectionist, and that is then a pattern that I've seen with women who've had those traumatic births, and yeah, I learned a lot about myself in that way. And how am I then showing up in everyday life after that? Um, and what do you know? Do you value becoming a parent in general is such a huge thing where you sort of re-evaluate everything and your life, and yeah, that was definitely what we did. Also, I was really young, so I was 21 when I had my first son, um almost 22.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah, so yeah, it shaped so much. People do say that the way you you birth sets you up for the parent that you need to be.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Do you see that at all with your boys?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Oh yeah, oh yeah. I always say my eldest is here to teach me patience, and my second key is uh keeps me on my toes, like literally, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. With this episode, some people might be scared to listen to it because it may have birth trauma in the title. How how how can people listen to these types of stories in a supported way? And how can I share these types of stories in a way that's uh safe for people, do you think? Sorry, I'm putting you on the spot with these last couple of questions.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah. I think I do think like story sharing is such an important part of healing and really you being able to, I guess, just like listen, right? Because so often people just want to like fix it or you know, do something like that. So if you if if we're able to tell our story and just be heard validated and being like, you know, well that really sucks, and like that being okay and that being enough, because sometimes it does and it can be beautiful, and it is such a duality there, but like we need these spaces to tell our stories, and it's not with the intention of scaring people, it is to it it helps everyone heal.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah. And a lot of what we've talked about is the onus has been on the woman to do this incredible transformation and seek out resources like yourself and arm herself, I guess, with like things that can support her to not have a traumatic birth this time, which it is her it is her birth, so she needs to take that ownership. I really believe that. But at the same time, there's like these are the systemic forces that are at play. How do you think the system needs to change? And do you think the system needs to change? I'm guessing you think yes, to support to better support women that are recovering from birth trauma.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Firstly, they need to be able to recognize it and actually then act on it. So, because yes, it was recognized for me the first time, but they didn't act on it, they didn't refer me, they didn't offer any support and send a lot especially the first time. If that is your first experience, it's like, okay, so that's how birth is, or yeah, like you kind of like, yeah, like everyone says, Oh yeah, I've had that too, and it's kind of normalized. And, you know, then if it's popping up and you're having flashbacks and having these, you know, experiences that you're like, what is going on with me? Getting that recognition really early is really important. Like it took me two years to then even get help. Um, so that is a big one. And the language that maternity care uses needs a huge overhaul, like a lot of failure words, and you know, it just makes you feel like you failed and that you didn't do a good job, and that is a big thing that needs to change. And then actually making the referrals. Every woman should automatically be given a physio referral, you know, at bare minimum after childbirth. And so that is the main things that I really think would have a big impact. I've had like health professionals ask, so how do you know that you should be, you know, use trauma-informed language or something? And I'm like, well, you should just always be trauma-informed. I feel like that is obvious if you are always because you're bringing so much to birth with you that you don't even realize, and that's a lot of the people-pleasing perfectionism, that's all come from usually a childhood traumatic experience. Most people have had something and everyone is bringing that to birth, and so you should just be trauma-informed in general, be really supportive and choosing language.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Can you take us through what what it means and what it would look like to be trauma-informed and to use trauma-informed language?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yeah, I think in just being safe, validating, listening. Um, you know, if you're seeing people in person, you want them to know where the door is. Just like little tiny things like that, creating that safe environment. For me, it can be um like personally sharing bits of my story. And because I share it a lot online, if you know you're already aware of my experience, and bringing that little bit of self-disclosure can help with that trauma-informed as well. But yeah, quite creating a really safe space. And I feel like maybe that's just something that naturally comes easy to me. It's like, okay, well, I'm not gonna say that thing because it might trigger some sort of a response.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

And so you can you can see the importance of continuity of care in this context because and even like the continuity of care that is available is very limited, uh like through the hospital system, in my experience. They're still on a schedule and they've got their checklist of things. I imagine if you had a private midwife, um they would be aware of your story, your background, your triggers. I remember with um Kylie, I have to mention Kylie in every episode. I feel like I've got I've mentioned Kylie in every episode, but she's just such a big support for our family. But I remember Kylie really helping us unpack what type of triggers could be there in the hospital, and um language was a big one. She's like, are there any type of is is there any language that you find unhelpful that would trigger something? Or um and just like I hadn't even thought about that. But then an example would be, you know, using inclusive language for a two-mum family. Yeah. So just understanding that context, I think, is what um you were saying as well, like just being curious as to the woman's history and being careful and taking care there.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yeah. And even, yeah, when there's not so much that continuity, like reading the notes, then you too know those things.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, it's har it's hard to talk about systemic change without without going, okay, we just need a big overhaul here, but yeah. Smaller steps that we can take. Training. Yeah. Birthmap training. Yeah. Trauma informed training. So what is it that your like what are your ambitions over the next couple of years? Like, how do you want to work with women? What impact do you want to have on a personal level?

SPEAKER_00 31:21

I want them to walk into their next birth feeling informed, empowered, and supported. And that is the words that repeat for me all the time. I can't promise a dreamy birth, but I want, you know, I want them to be able to trust themselves enough that no matter what happens, they can feel okay with it. They will feel stable in themselves. You know, they've built that really strong base of self-trust and regulation that no matter what happens, they will feel okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

And that's that's I think that's such a beautiful way to say it. You're not supporting women to get this outcome. Well, you're supporting women to get an outcome that feels right for them, but you're not supporting a particular birth type or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Yeah. So much is unpredictable as well. That you know, people can have really great births and then something goes wrong right at the end. And if you haven't planned for that, you yeah have to have those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah. And so how do how how can someone find you online? Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Instagram is my preferred platform, so that's um at Rihanna underscore rose. I'm sure you'll put that in the show notes or something. Yes, I will, I will. Yeah, that is my main platform.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

And then once they s someone reaches out to you, what and and let's say it's the in the context of they want to navigate pregnancy or even trying to conceive, right? Yeah, post um a traumatic birth, what can they expect in those initial consultations with you?

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah. I have just sort of recently blended it all together into one because I was sort of separating it into like, you know, counseling and processing your birth story, and then it's like we look at the naturopathy and then we can do birth mapping. But when I'm in those sessions, my brain is still going, we need to look at this, this, and this as well. And so, you know, a session with me looks like we explore whatever's coming up for you first and foremost, and then explore whatever comes from that. And whether that is, you know, maybe you had a postpartum hemorrhage. So it's like, okay, well, we need to make sure we check in on your iron and what's your energy like, and how are you sleeping? Because it's all just connected. Like, I can't, you can't do the mind without the body, you can't do the body without the mind. And so I bring it all together into one sort of session. So sessions with me are two hours so that we actually have, you know, the time and the space to explore it. And that's something that traditional, I guess, care doesn't have or do. You know, it's like 55 minutes if you see a psychologist, if that and you know, your doctor, you're there for 15 minutes. And yeah, I want to give you that space and the time to then get to know you, get to know your whole story, and explore from there what what we sort of identify that needs to be worked on and is the priority.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah, so you follow you follow the thread of where it leads you rather than have a specific goal for each session. Yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

What's the name of the package again? So Flourish is the name of my full pregnancy support. So that is the whole thing. And then I sort of have the same thing but at different stages. So you could work with me for six months after having a birth. You know, if you're not pregnant yet, you want to start some sort of healing journey and prepare for a next pregnancy. And then a little like eight weeks where you just have sort of one priority. So that could be if you're pregnant and you just want to explore, you know, one sort of thing for you. Um do that as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Yeah, cool. Sounds awesome. And yeah, we'll definitely link everything in the show notes. Awesome. Thanks so much, Rihanna. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the women who guided me. If you haven't already, make sure to follow the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook for updates and behind-the-scenes moments. For show notes and more information about today's guest, visit our website, you'll find all the details there. If today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with a woman you know who might need. And if there's something you'd like me to explore, a question you want answered, or a wise woman you think I should meet, I'd love to hear from you. You can connect with me anytime on Instagram or through our website. Until next time, thank you.