Episode 10: Allowed to Birth — Filming a Global Midwife with Jacinta Lagos

Jacinta Lagos is an Argentinian-born filmmaker, birth photographer and videographer now based in the United States. She started out as a wedding videographer, then documented her own two pregnancies and discovered birth photography as its own genre, before training as a doula because she refused to just be “a fly on the wall.” Allowed to Birth: The Journey of a Global Midwife is her debut as a feature filmmaker. It follows midwife Kristine Lauria, who has attended over 5,000 births across more than 25 countries, including war zones and refugee camps, and explores how birth is supported, and sometimes constrained, across very different healthcare systems.

This isn't a film that sets out to be anti-hospital or pro-home birth. It's about respectful care, and about the idea that birth can be a magical rite of passage in any setting, including a caesarean, if a woman feels safe, secure and respected. In this conversation, Jacinta talks about what called her to make the film after years spent behind the camera at births, the biggest revelations that came out of filming across such different cultures and healthcare systems, and what she wants women, wherever they're giving birth, to take from it.

SHOW NOTES

• 00:00 - Introduction to Jacinta Lagos and her filmmaking journey
• 00:24 - Jacinta’s transition from wedding videography to birth documentation
• 00:49 - The inspiration behind "Allowed to Birth" and witnessing obstetric violence
• 01:15 - Jacinta’s early work and focus on normalizing birth through media
• 02:34 - Meeting Christine Laurier and the story of creating the documentary
• 03:12 - The global perspective on birth practices and cultural influences
• 03:51 - The meaning behind the film's title and its implications for women’s rights
• 04:21 - How the film aims to change perceptions on individual and systemic levels
• 11:28 - Barriers for first-time mothers engaging with birth knowledge
• 12:55 - Challenging misconceptions about hospital birth and medicalization
• 14:08 - The importance of respecting bodily autonomy and informed consent
• 16:39 - The societal normalization of intervention and trauma in birth systems
• 17:36 - The power of personal stories and first-person experiences in transforming attitudes
• 19:13 - The inclusivity of the film and its non-graphic approach to birth imagery
• 22:26 - The serendipity and harmony observed during Jacinta's filmmaking process
• 27:45 - The transformational power of birth and its significance as a rite of passage
• 28:45 - Reframing birth as a sacred, culturally meaningful experience
• 32:45 - How respectful and safe environments enable women to have positive birth experiences
• 36:38 - Obstetric system challenges: training gaps and misconceptions about risks
• 40:39 - Jacinta's upcoming plans and the film's reception goals
• 41:13 - Engaging audiences, sparking conversations, and promoting birth autonomy

CONNECT WITH JACINTA & THE FILM

Allowed to Birth: The Journey of a Global Midwife

Distributed by Common Ground Film Australia

Screening across Australia September–November. Canberra screening: 16 September.

Follow Common Ground Film Au, Allowed to Birth, or Jacinta's personal account on Instagram for tickets and details.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

This is the Women Who Guided Me podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

I've met some unbelievable women along the way, and I can't let them go. I don't want to let them go. Like, I want to keep talking to them and I want to put their voices out there. And that is something that's really beautiful about the journey is you actually get to grow your village of wise women before the babies here. And I think I think that's a really nice experience.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode. I have the privilege today of speaking with Jacinti Lagos, who is a Argentinian-born filmmaker and recently released her debut documentary called Allowed to Birth: The Journey of a Global Midwife. I want to thank Amanda from Common Ground Film for setting this one up. It was such an interesting interview. Jacinta is such a generous, kind person. And I'm just really excited about this documentary. There is there's going to be 18 screenings, I believe, across Australia. So Amanda from Common Ground Film Australia is um distributing those. I believe most sessions, if not all of them, have a live QA panel after it. So the Canberra session for those Canberra listeners is on the 16th of September. And the panel includes a couple of um the women who guided me podcast guests. So Sasha Hopkins, who I think is facilitating the panel as well, um, a midwife and did an episode on Breach Birth. And then Dr. Catherine Bell from The Birthmap, and um the managing director of Maternity Choices Australia. So if you are in Canberra, I would highly encourage you to come to this film and and meet meet some of the guests, have a chat, watch the film, listen to them on the panel afterwards. It's gonna be awesome. Um and then back to Jacinta, she she is such an interesting woman. So started off as a wedding videographer, documented her own two pregnancies, um, and discovered that birth photography, videography was her calling. She then trained as a doula because she wanted to be more hands-on as well, not just to fly in the wall. She had her her third child, her daughter, was born at home in an empowering home birth experience. Um the movie follows Christine Laurie, a midwife who attends births all over the world, been to more than 25 countries helping women supporting the birth process. And the film grew, and you'll hear Jacinta talk about this, um, from just into watching trauma and witnessing obstetric violence and an over-medicalised birth system. Um and stay tuned for what what the allowed to birth title means because it's it's really interesting. So it's not an anti-hospital or pro-home birth film. It's about respectful care and and that birth can be magical in any setting. The best way that you can find more information about the film is probably if you follow along by Instagram common groundfilmau. You can also follow a Loud to Birth Instagram page or just interpersonal Instagram, and I'll link all of that in the show notes. If you don't have Instagram, I'll also put in the direct link to the the tickets um in the show notes. Before we begin this episode, I would like to acknowledge the Nanawal people as the traditional custodians of the land on which I am talking to you from today and pay my respects to elders past and present. I honour the enduring wisdom and cultural practices of First Nations peoples whose knowledge of birth, nurturing, and community care has been shared across generations. Alright, let's get into it. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode. I'm so excited. Today I'm joined by Yacinta Lagos from the US, who is uh director of a new film that's going to be screening in Australia soon called Allowed to Birth. Jacinta, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Hey, thanks for can for having me here. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

Firstly, before we you tell us a little bit about the film, I I wanted to ask you, and I ask most guests that come on this show, what drew you to the work? So, first of all, your doula photography, videography work, uh, and then what led you to the film as well?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

So I wouldn't put my job as doula first because I've I've been always a videographer my entire life. So that would that was the first thing. You know, I'm from Argentina originally, so when I was living in Argentina and throughout my entire life, pretty much, I've done wedding videos uh for years and years. And when I moved here to the United States in 2017, I had my my two sons already, and they were little, and when I was pregnant with them, I would document everything, I would record, you know, the ultrasounds and you know the pregnancy test and all of those things. And I was already drawn to that kind of you know moment in life, you know, maternity and you know, switching from maiden to mother and things like that. So, but I was still doing weddings and all of that. And when I moved to the States with my husband and my two sons, I learned that documenting births was a thing. And for me, it was instant. Like I knew I I wanted to do that. And a little bit later, I, you know, I was so interested in the process of birth because even though I had my two vaginal births in Argentina, they were very medicalized, and Argentina has a very high rate of C-sections, and I wanted to know more about the process, and that's when I became a doula. So it's kind of like the doula portion came later.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

Yeah, okay. Yeah, and then you decided I want to learn even more and be with women even more, and that's what led you to be a doula. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Yes, because I I would find myself being at a birth holding my camera, and I refused to be a fly on the wall. I wanted to be part of the birth team. Like I was I was a a person, you know, my energy was affecting in some way. I, you know, I wanted to be able to handle a glass of water if needed, you know, like if the doula wasn't in the room, I wanted to skew squeeze that hip, you know, and and so I became a doula because I knew I was part of the birth team. I wasn't just a random figure moving around with a camera. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Yeah, beautiful. So, how did you go from being a videographer, doula, to having a debut documentary?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Okay, so I always wanted to do a documentary, and when I was in school for TV and cinema production, I had this, you know, like in in the in the subject documentary, we could choose a random topic and do a like a mini documentary. And I chose motherhood. And so, you know, and that was in 20 in 2007, so it was a long time ago. And I I already had that, you know, that idea of someday making a documentary related to motherhood. And actually the idea of making this film wasn't because I was, you know, this idealistic person of making a documentary and it was all, you know, like rainbows and butterflies, it was it, it actually came from the trauma I was living, you know, from witnessing abuse and witnessing obstetric violence and seeing all these things happening in the hospital setting and seeing how birth could be in the home setting. And for me, if you have to know something about me, is that when I see something that's not right, I need to do something about it. I'm like a solution seeker.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

And so I said, you know, I have this power, like I felt so powerful with the images I was getting from births, and I felt like I had the power to normalize birth. And at some point in my career, I found that that was my mission, like normalizing birth. And so I started by doing like little projects on obstetric violence and you know, just little things for me to put out there and you know, say this is my contribution to the world and this is my way of doing something about it. And one of those little projects, actually, Christine Loria, which is the main subject of my documentary, she picked it up and she shared it. And she said, you know, this is fascinating. I can see that you have a vision. So if you ever feel like we can collaborate in some way together, I would love to do something together. And I said, Okay, let's do a documentary. I don't think she that's what she meant, but I I went I went all in. I was like, okay, you offered me to do something together. Okay, I want to make a documentary about you. And she said yes, and that was basically it.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

That's so incredible. And I've seen some snippets of you two together on Instagram. You seem like you have such a beautiful connection.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah, we we have so much fun. We became very good friends.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Yeah. So could you tell us a little bit about the film and in particular uh well the main subject, Christine Laurier?

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yes. I wanted to make a documentary that shows the problematic of medicalization or over-medicalization of birth, and seeing birth as a as a natural normal event that only sometimes needs medical attention and not in the other way around. So at the same time, I didn't want to make another, yet another birth documentary when you show, you know, the beauties of home birth and the bad of hospital birth. And I didn't want to make a documentary that's only based in a certain part of the world. I wanted to make something more global. I wanted to talk about birth in general, I wanted to talk about birth as a cultural event, I wanted to talk about birth as a natural event, and when in humanity, in humans history, we decided that birth was a medical event. And why did that happen? I wanted to use a figure that that's Christine that can show the alternative to the problem. So I wanted to portray this complex issue with birth, and I wanted to show to share with the world how birth can be different through Christine's work. So the the film's title, it's Allowed to Birth, The Journey of a Global Midwife. So it's kind of like Allow to Birth. We can talk about the title later, but the journey of a global midwife. I think Christine is a person that has so much experience in every different setting. She's been in war zones, she's been in refugee camps, she does breach, she does triplets, she does twins, she teaches, she travels, she lives alone by herself in the middle of nowhere in Michigan. She's such an interesting character that I wanted to share her life and her work and her mission and where she comes from, as you know, as an analogy to the problematic of birth. And I know it's it's a little hard to explain and to understand, but when you watch the film, you're gonna see, okay, yeah, we are talking about birth, and now we are talking about this midwife and why is she, you know, shaving her head? You know, it's kind of like a comparison between one thing and the other all the time, and it's constructed in a kind of like a metaphoric way, and it's very beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

Yeah, I love that you the film is through a global midwife's eyes. I think people really attracted to that story rather than an informational because we've got so many resources out there to support women in terms of like information, but still the system is broken in a lot of ways. So I think it bridges a gap. Having that that first person story is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, because I think that I think that everyone has heard a story, a horror story from a birth, and you know, your cousin's neighbors aunt tells you that she lost her baby because her home birth went wrong, and and I think that the I tried with this film to show an actual person that actually attends triplets at home, that she actually travels teaching obstetricians in everywhere in the world. You know, I wanted to share the example of how birth can be different if we only listen to wise women like Christine Lauria.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

Yeah. I've got a question for you that's a little bit it's not about the film, and I want to come back to the title, but I'm just really curious to what you think about something that's come up in interview after interview that I've done is, and I already alluded to it, there's information out there, like there's lots of documentaries, uh social media pages, women give putting more information out there. Uh but there seems to be a barrier for t particularly for first-time mothers in engaging with the risks, what what path they want to take in birth, what their birth plan is, what what uh and how to advocate for themselves in a in a hospital setting. So what do you think the barrier is for women engaging in the details or the knowledge of birth in order to plan their birth? Or do you even see that from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, and I think it's a very simple answer. And I think it's completely rooted in generations that have been seen our bodies as flawed and birth as a dangerous event, and birth as, you know, like something that's painful and it's crazy and it's dangerous, and everything can happen in a millisecond, and your baby could die, and you could die, and you know, you need a doctor to save you, and that's so in you know, in our DNA, in everyone's DNA. We we think as our bodies need to go through a trial first, and the hospital is the best place for us to do that. And if we succeed in the hospital, we might consider something else for our second pregnancy, or you know, and this is how it usually goes we are gonna have such bad trauma from the first experience that we are gonna decide something different for the second, and it's very unfortunate.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

It's so common, isn't it? Like that just resonates from what I see. And you see people so changed by that first experience that they go into birth work because they not only want something different for themselves, they want to change the system because it's so big.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Absolutely, yeah. If you ask any doolas, probably they had a you know a traumatic experience for themselves.

SPEAKER_04 16:50

Yeah. So tell us about the title, Allowed to Birth. I love it. What does it mean?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

So when I was, you know, thinking about what do I name this film? I knew I wanted to do something about Christine. So she's a global midwife because she really is a global midwife. But I, you know, as I was doing all this research, I was listening to every single podcast. You know, I went to the grocery store and in five minute driving, I would listen to a little piece of a podcast. And this world, this word allowed, being allowed in, you know, in a context of birth kept coming up. And I was like, why are we talking about being allowed in the birth context? Like, I, you know, my my first language is not English, it's Spanish. And I didn't understand if it was a language barrier or what was happening. But I was like, what do you mean? Like your doctor didn't allow you to do something, or why are you not allowed to go past 42 weeks? Why are you so this word allowed kept coming for me, and I was like, wait, this this is not right. So I wanted to do kind of like a I don't know if it's triggering title, I don't know if it's a you know, play of words, I don't know if there's because it's kind of like intriguing, allowed to birth, you know, because it's on one hand, it's like of course you're allowed. You you were born to give birth, your your body is made to, you know, it's like allowed to breathe, allowed to, you know, vomit. I don't know. It's like a physiological response. And I thought, you know, when allowed to birth came to me, I I knew it was that was the title. I didn't overthink it. I knew it have it had to be that title. And I I said, okay, and this was me thinking very forward, but I said in my mind, okay, it's gonna be allowed to birth, but it has to be something about Christine. So I'm gonna do the journey of a global midwife, and I'm gonna keep allowed to birth for in the future, making another documentary that might be allowed to birth and something else. So it's kind of like me being safe and keeping that allow to birth for you know for the future. I'm not saying I'm doing it another documentary anytime soon, but I might.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

I yeah, that is it is provocative. Like it makes you think, oh, what what what does that mean? What like, and then you kind of put your own interpretation on it. But what you just said then is just resonates so much, and I think it would for a lot of women. How many women bel believe that whatever their doctor says is they they is the way it goes? Like I think about when um I was told like you have to have a cesarean, how many people would go, I'm not allowed to have a vaginal birth? It's like no, this hospital is not supporting you to have a vaginal birth. Ask why. Are there are there any are there any people in Australia that would support me? So I think that's such an important message. That is really, really people don't realize they can question things.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

No, because I think it's so ingrained in us that we have a problem, we see a professional, we have a pain, a heart symptom, physical symptom, an illness, something like that. We go to see a doctor because there's something wrong with us. Now we don't see a doctor when we are pregnant because they are experts in physiology or natural birth. So why are we going to see a professional of pathology for something that's normal? We shouldn't be seeing doctors for nar normal, you know, like healthy pregnancy. We we should be seeing midwives.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So who who is this film for?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Well, this is something I asked Christine last week and said. She said this film is for everyone who's been born. I think that's a little broad. So I'm gonna say that this film is for everyone who questions birth in any way. Like because they want to have a baby, because they have given birth and there's something that still inside of them, because they know someone that's pregnant, because they want to, you know, know more about birth. If you have any questions around birth in general, this film is for you.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Yeah. I I love that it's uh and that doesn't mean just for birthing women, like you said. It's it's like I think of my my dad, who's like such a big fan of this podcast. And listening to everything, and I'm like, is he the audience? But I don't know, who cares? Like he is now like he's now got the language behind it and talking to people about the culture, and that's how you make an impact as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

That's amazing. And it's it's never late. It's never late.

unknown 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Birth compels us all, all ages, all genders, all everything.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Yeah. So you had that in the back of your mind when you were making it. Like this is for people who have that curiosity, even if it's like a 2% curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah. And one of the reasons why I didn't make like a very explicit documentary, that wasn't the goal for me. I didn't want to show a baby crowning coming out and how the placenta is birthed. That wasn't my my goal. Because you can see the birth the film, and there's no, you know, rawness. There's barely one placenta. There's no vaginas. There's nothing graphic. Because I want people to actually see it and enjoy it and don't be like this and not, you know, and you can watch it with your kids and you know, with older kits. And I want this to reach more people instead of like, listen, I'm a birth videographer. I have a lot of explicit material, but I didn't use any of that.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

So it's way more accessible. By the way, that there's one placentra in no vaginas is going to be the promo for this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

Yeah, I yeah, and I'm also like, I love watching the videos. Like when I watch, I got onto Breach Without Borders and like watched all these breach births, because I was like, I need to visually see that to embody it and going into my own. But not everyone's like that. And and you have to make it accessible. So that's so so there's no birth footage, it's just all implicit.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

There's birth footage, but not babies actually coming out.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

There there's not nothing graphic.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

And you can show this to anyone and they are gonna watch it like not you know, like really like covering their faces, because not every like you said, not everyone enjoys watching the beauty of childbirth, you know what?

SPEAKER_04 24:28

So Yeah, that's really smart.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Was there anything that when making it that really shocked you I would say how how perfect everything went and how God, I don't know if you believe in God or a higher power or the universe or someone, but how everything was happening as in a way to say, yes, yes, keep going. This is what you have to do, like this, you're on the right path. Like everything happened in a way that didn't, you know, let me even double think what I was doing. Everything was like perfect in time, perfect, like in how things happen. Like, and I mean like traveling to Sweden for a birth and the birth happening the next day, and I've able to come back home and having a client that was due and having her baby on the next day, and like things were act like actually perfect. And I yeah, I I took that as a sign that I you know I was on the right path. And for me that that shocked me. Like there wasn't, and I don't know if this is more like profound of maybe you were thinking about uh something different, like how shocked I was on when my camera fell to the floor or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

But for me, I didn't have any expectations, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Yeah, so everything was you know, everything happened in a way that actually proved me that I was doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

Yeah, it unfolded like a natural birth.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Exactly. Like yeah, yeah. A very long labor.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

Lots of tears, very long screaming.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

How long did it take all up?

SPEAKER_01 26:28

So it's gonna be two years in September. Um that I, you know, September 25th was uh the day I sent Christine the mesh the message, I wanna make a documentary about you. So it was pretty fast.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

Yeah, so you were just with Christine every day for that?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Not every day, because she I mean, we live fairly close for the size of the United States. She lives three and a half hours away from me, and we traveled a lot together. We were together at her house, but there in the middle, there was like probably one, two, three months that we didn't even see each other. But we talk every day, all day, at all hours, like we became so so close, and you know, we are kind of like bonded for life. That's what I tell her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:24

Yeah, I can see that in your um your Instagram together.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

It's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

So how many countries do you go to?

SPEAKER_01 27:36

So I went to Sweden, I went to Spain, I went to London, I went to France, I went to Austria. She was in Australia there with Melanie. Uh, and then I traveled a lot throughout the United States a lot because she was teaching all over, and I went to interview people in California and Utah and Florida and Virginia and all over. So there were in a lot of countries, but it was a lot of traveling within the US too.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

Yeah, amazing. And from what you saw when making the documentary and also your experience as a dueler and a videographer prior to that, the women that are able to have a natural physiological undisturbed birth, what are the the common things they have? So a midwife, you would say home birth more so. Yeah. Is there anything else?

SPEAKER_01 28:41

And their addiction to have another one and another one and another one. Because I think that when you have a home birth and an undisturbed birth and this ecstatic birth, and you have a beautiful experience, you want to do it again. And I see that a lot. You know, of course, when you're pushing a baby out, they always say, This is the last one, I'm not gonna do this again. And you know, like two years later, they call me, hey, I'm pregnant. So yeah, they they usually have midwives, and I know a lot of midwives here in my area, they are all amazing. Doulas are very important, more so in the hospital. Even if I'm not being a doula, I'm they're documenting uh doulas in the hospital. It's very common here. And then a lot of family members, I see that a lot. You know, if you're in the in in your home or in the hospital, it's very common to have your mom, your mother-in-law, a sister, or siblings, like a lot of kids at births, which is amazing for me. I love to see it. But what I see, like this is for real, what I see in that it's the most common thing that happened. And it's it's this is the you know, the longing to do it again. And the, you know, it's such an incredible experience when you let it happen that they actually want to do it again. There's there's no one ever that I've heard saying, I had a terrible, you know, I I had a great experience. I had this physiologic, undisturbed birth, and it was the worst experience of my life. There's no one that can say that because that's not how we are meant to be.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

Yeah. And it's not saying that it wasn't tough, like you said, you know, when it during it, they're like, I don't want to do this again. It's the transformation that happens through that.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

It's like nothing else either, isn't it? Like nothing else in life compares to that. Like how do you go back to normal life is something that I'm struggling with.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Uh it's like you don't you're changed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

Forever, yeah. It's very it's the power of birth is amazing if you can if you're open to the opportunity for that, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

And even and I think this is very clear in the film too, even if you don't experience birth, it's important that we think about birth as that transformative experience. We need to stop thinking about birth as this, you know, like tough process or things that need to happen behind closed doors. We need to start thinking as birth as the most amazing rite of passage in a woman's life. We need to start making birth sacred and thinking about birth as a unique moment in your life. You're not gonna be the same person you were before giving birth. And we need to go back to that. And I think this is a very clear message in the film. We need to understand that birth is not just, oh yeah, I gave birth, whatever. You know, it's so important for for the person giving birth and for that baby, for that person, you know, coming out to the world.

SPEAKER_04 32:05

It's just so it yeah, it's just not the cult mainstream culture. Is it women are just as expected to bounce back and like I, you know, if I sometimes I think if men gave birth, it would be the feature of every single action film. They would be the main character. Uh it's just yeah, it it's the the the most amazing thing a human can do. Anyway, I'm I'm I'm preaching to the converted here.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

You don't you don't have to explain to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

What if someone if someone's listening to this and and and was like, oh I you know, I can't really see myself in what they're talking about, I'm medicated, undisturbed. I had an emergency cesarean, I would have really liked to have a natural birth, and maybe next time for me. I think there is still that that's still a powerful experience, in a way. Like we're not saying that transformation, while I'm not saying that transformation is only available to those who've had a natural physiological birth. If you have had a cesarean, that changed something in you as well. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Absolutely, absolutely, and at the same time, there's trauma in the home birth setting. And birth and trauma are enemies. So I think that you can have a glorious birth in an OR, in an operating room when you're they are sectioning you. So I've seen it all. And as long as there's not trauma and there's respectful care and there's informed consent, you can have that magical rite of passage, amazing experience in any way you give birth. And that's what this is this film is not about home birth and you know how great uh undisturbed birth is. This is about respectful birthing. And I think that's it. I've been at birth where it was the most magical experience for everyone in the room, for that mother, for that baby, for their partner, and it was a c-section. Yeah, and it was magical because she felt safe and she felt secured and she felt respected. And as long as you feel that way, you can give birth whenever, however. And you know, if you want to put be put under general anesthesia because that's how you feel safer, and that's how you feel that your birth is gonna be best, just go for it. Because your perception of your birth experience, it's what matters. No one else can tell you, oh, you had a C-section, so you're you're had a bad experience, right? No, maybe you didn't, because if you felt safer and if you feel like that was uh the best way for you to give birth, that's great. And we need to understand that too.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

That's really beautiful. I'm glad I'm really glad you said that. I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of people, and it's also it's the ultimate feminist view, isn't it? That a woman knows best for herself.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:22

So yeah, I really, really appreciate that. And I think I saw a snippet, I might have saw a snippet of the Caesarean one you're talking about. Where it zooms in and the babies is uh That wasn't it.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

It this is not portrayed in the film.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Okay, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

But I have seen footy.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

I've seen footy the one the one with a clear uh Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Unbelievable gave me goosebumps.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yeah, yeah, this this was another case I with a client that uh she had a transfer and she ended up having a C-section, but it was amazing for her, and she knew that that's how her baby wanted to come out. So yeah, as long as no no trauma. Yeah, everything in the film except for Melanie's interview is mine. So that's another thing that I'm so proud about is that every single birth that's documented in the film, I I recorded that. Except for one, I think. And you can tell because it's it's a cell phone footage. I would never, I would never do that.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

Yeah, yeah. So through the film you you're hoping to change people on an individual level um and at a cultural level. Is there any way that you you could use the film to, you know, get in front of like obstetric teams or make uh a statement to the medical system, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 37:02

I hope so.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I hope so. I know there are there are medical professionals that are more open and they want to do better. I don't think this film is gonna reach the people that are completely, you know, like closed to any ideas other than what they think. But I know there are a lot of people that want to do better. So I hope that they can take something from it, that they can learn something different, that they can listen to midwives, that they can listen to the mothers that are telling their stories. I think there's a possibility. If they have just the window a little bit open for something new to come in, I think that there's a chance of them starting to question, starting to think about it. Just whatever, whatever spark comes to their mind from this film, you know, first they need to watch it. So that's gonna be uh a whole mission, you know, for for someone to say, okay, I'm an obstetrician, but I'm gonna watch this documentary and see what it says. And not everyone is open to that. So we'll see. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully it would reach some someone.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Yeah, I'm so curious. I'm so curious and kind of fascinated with what those what the closed off obstetricians are saying in response to this. Like, what do you know? Well, what is their motivation and view?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Well, I think that they the only thing they know about birth is what they see in the hospital. And usually what they see in the hospital are complicated, problematic, you know, like intervened births. So it's very hard for for some people who the only thing they see are high-risk pregnancies and complicated births. It's very hard to tell them, but wait, like birth can be different. Like, look, this is you know, this is happening. If they learned in medical school that birth is an emergency that they need to treat, it's very hard to, you know, like come out of that thought. And you can see this on so many like obstetrician influencers and people on the internet talking about the dangers of home birth because they just attended a birth that the baby came out with all entangled and they had to do all these crazy things to, you know, like resuscitate the baby, and so they they come from that base, right? They come from uh a perspective of birth being how is Christine say it, an accident waiting to happen. Because that's how obstetricians most of the time see birth.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

Yeah. And because they're not trying, and correct me if you like push back on this, if you because they're not trained in physology, it it's self-reinforcing. So like to give you an example of uh what happened with me when I spoke to when I asked the doctor why they couldn't support a vaginal breach birth, it was because her experience was a handful of surprise breach births that went terribly wrong and that she doesn't want that to happen. So she was like, I could almost see trauma in her because of the surprise breach. But that is a result of not being trained in breach and not being equipped to deal with those surprise ones. It's also because they're not supporting planned planned breach births, they're pushing those to other hospitals or that, you know, they're not existent, planned breach vaginal births. So her experience is a handful of very what she would consider dangerous, unplanned vaginal breach births that, you know, were at risk to the mother and baby. So it it perpetuates her worldview that it vaginal breach birth is dangerous. But if there was the training and experience and acceptance that it's a normal variation, I think outcomes would be very different.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Yeah, and I'd it's crazy to think that people that are attending births are not trained in breach. Like it's okay if you don't want to take planned breach, but like you said, a bree at surprise breach can happen anytime because babies turn. So it's crazy because and I like to talk about shoulder dystosia. So when the baby's coming out and the shoulder gets stuck, that's a shoulder dystosias, and it's one of the most important trainings that all of citricians and midwives and everyone that's attending births get the training to unstuck the shoulder and change positions and do all these things because it's it can be an emergency, that's for sure. Now we talk about breach and no one's trained. Like, why are you doing attending births if you don't have the skill to solve or to help or to intervene if needed at a breach birth? You need to have training, even if you're not planning on taking any planned breach, you need to be trained. It's crazy to know it's negligent, yeah. It's negligent, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

Yeah. Amazing. So, what's what's next for you, Isinta, now that you've got you've ticked your documentary up.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Next for me. Next is in a month, we're premiering this documentary. I'm going one day at a time. I want to enjoy the whole thing. I wanna I the only thing I'm focused on right now is in getting people sharing on social media their reactions to the film when they watch it, what they think, what they, you know, if they are touched by it, if they think about birthing a different light. Like, I want to know what people think about this film. I wanna put it out there, and I'm not thinking like beyond what's gonna happen after this is out. I wanna see reactions, I wanna see emotions, I wanna, I want people to write emails to me and say, hey, I watch your film, I thought it was great or I thought it was bad. I don't care, but I wanna, I wanna know what, you know, this is my my baby coming out to the world, and I want to know how it's received, basically.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

Yeah, and that's how it's a conversation starter as well. Like I can see you want people to keep talking about it and interrogate bits of it, talk to you about how it makes them feel. I'm I I would be keen to help facilitate that on this podcast, get some people on, and we'll do a bit of a debrief after the film.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

I think it would be amazing.

SPEAKER_04 44:20

Yeah, yeah. That that's really great. Okay, so no, we won't talk about any future allowed to birth projects. You're really you're zoned in on the reception.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Yeah, I want to attend screenings, I want to talk to people, I want to answer questions, I want to yeah, just start seeing the the result of all this work. Even I I always say that, but even if it touches one person's view, one person's life is if one person anywhere in the world says, hey, you know what? I want to double think what I was thinking about doing with my pregnancy and my birth. If there's one person that starts, you know, having new ideas and being more open to different things and starts seeing birth in a different light, that for me is enough. Everything else is gonna be a plus, it's gonna be extra, it's gonna be amazing. But if I know that one person has been touched, that for me is mission accomplished for sure.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, congratulations on the film and all the best for your QA panels in all of the screenings. And uh I will very much be attending the Canberra screening. And there are, yeah, like I think you said there were 20 screenings across Australia, so we'll we'll put all of that information up on the on Instagram and on the website. Uh yeah, I'm really excited to see what what conversations we start to have in Australia about about the film and about the system and about birth. So thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, anytime. I'm I'm always here. And I'm, you know, if anyone listening wants to send me an email or whatever you need, just I'm I'm very approachable and eager to hear from people. So thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 46:19

Thank you so much. Thanks, Yusinta. Thank you so much for listening to the women who guided me. If you haven't already, make sure to follow the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook for updates and behind-the-scenes moments. For show notes and more information about today's guest, visit our website. You'll find all the details there. If today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with a woman you know who might need.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

And if there's something you'd like me to explore, a question you want answered, or a wise woman you think I should meet, I'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

You can connect with me anytime on Instagram or through our website. Until next time, thank you.