Episode 11: Honouring the Sacred Postpartum Window with Doula Kellie Hermes

Kellie Hermes is a Canberra-based birth and postpartum doula, Reiki practitioner and mother of four, and the founder of Adorabirth. Her path into this work began with her own births,  including the loss of her first baby, and the deeply supported water birth of her daughter that followed, guided by a continuity-of-care midwife who believed completely in her body. That experience of being trusted through a hard posterior labour became the blueprint for the doula she is today.

In this conversation we talk about what a doula offers beyond the birth room and why the weeks after birth need slowness and structured community rather than isolation. Kellie talks about how she supports both mothers and partners in the postpartum period and the different archetypes doulas move between depending on what a woman needs.

We also get into how partners can stay grounded and involved without stepping on the mother's bond with her baby, why Kellie believes families need structured support rather than a vague "just ask if you need anything," and the bigger systemic shifts — from Nordic-style parental leave to models like Seven Sisters for Seven Days — that she thinks would change postpartum for the better.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Reiki: an energy-based healing practice; Kellie is trained in Reiki I & II and used self-Reiki to move through transition during her own labour
• Continuity of Care Programme: a midwifery care model, such as the one at Canberra Hospital, where a woman is supported by the same known midwife throughout pregnancy, birth and postpartum
• Seven Sisters for Seven Days by Michelle Peterson: a structured postpartum support model where one person from a woman's circle checks in on an assigned day of the week for six weeks after birth
• Rhea Dempsey: Australian doula, author and birth educator known for her work on labour support and the archetypes doulas and midwives embody (the mother, the sister, the wise woman)
• Nordic parental leave policies: the extended, family-centred paid parental leave models used in countries like Sweden and Norway, cited as a benchmark for postpartum support

CONNECT WITH KELLIE

Adorabirth — Birth & Postpartum Doula, Canberra

Book a free chat via her website — https://www.adorabirth-kelliehermesdoula.com

Related reading: “Honouring the Sacred Postpartum Window: Why Every Mother Needs Support Beyond Family” — Kellie's blog post on her website.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Women Who Guide in Me podcast. I've met some unbelievable women along the way, and I can't let them go. I don't want to let them go. Like, I want to keep talking to them and I want to put their voices out there. And that is something that's really beautiful about the journey is you actually get to grow your village of wise women before the babies here. I think I think that's a really nice experience. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode. Today I'm joined by Kelly, who is a duela here in Canberra and owner of Adora Birth. We have a chat about Kelly's four birth stories and how that empowered her into the birth worker she is today, particularly the experience of her midwife who really believed in her. She was in a continuity of care programme, and that really made a difference. We talk about what's missing in the modern Western culture in terms of postpartum care, how slow and intuitive woman-led care is really important. And we also talk about the different dualer archetypes, and Kelly really thinks that she embodies the sister archetype if we look at Rhea Dempsey's dual archetypes. So yeah, I'm really excited about this episode. Um Kelly is just absolutely delightful and just someone that I was really honoured to hold space for. But before we get into it, I would like to acknowledge the Nunwal people as the traditional custodians of the land on which I am talking to you from today, and pay my respects to elders past and present. I honour the enduring wisdom and cultural practices of First Nations peoples whose knowledge of birth, nurturing, and community care has been shared across generations. Alright, let's get into it. Hello everyone. I'd like to welcome Kelly to the show today. Kelly is a doula, and as part of the job of being a doula is on call. So heads up, there might be a ding that comes through, and Kelly's gonna keep an eye out on her phone just because she needs to be available for a birthing woman today. But Kelly, welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Now I was really drawn to your work uh because you have such a spiritual holistic element to it. And I really like when we spoke before about your story and how you were drawn to it on a spiritual level as well. But could you start us off by sharing a little bit about um what drew you to this work as a dueler?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for asking. We do love to share our stories as duelers and you know, just m have space held for us as well because we hold space for so many others. So thank you so much for having me and um and hearing my story. I'm not actually the best talker, to be honest. Like, you know, I love it when I speak to people and um and they you want to hear what I have to say, and I love educating people, but I'm a much better listener, so you'll have to bear with me because you know, I'm a typical woman who just kind of figures out what I think and you know how I feel as I talk.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Um but yeah, so uh I started this work because I had had three babies by then, one um one who wasn't at this earth yet, and three who did come earthside. Um, and I'd just been so well supported by my midwives in the continuity of care program at the Canberra Hospital and my mother um and friends a little bit, but most mostly the midwives and my mother. And I just felt incredible after I gave birth, especially to my first born earthside um baby, my little girl Deanna, who's now 20. And I just it changed my life, you know, um having a midwife just believe in me um as I birthed her because it was a hard posterior labor and it wasn't super long, but it was six hours and a lot of back pain. And I, you know, was pretty determined to have a water birth um because I've been a hippie at heart ever since I was 11 years old. And it just made sense to me. Um, I was referred to the midwife that supported me by my mother's best friend, who was a midwife, and she knew that I was very holistic and said, Oh, I think Kelly better call early and get into the continuity of care program because she'll probably want to have um a water birth. And and I was like, Oh, yes, I do. Yes, please. I was only 24 years old when I had her, and 23 when I had my first beautiful little stillborn baby, Carlin. Um, and so I'd started off, you know, with his care as well, with the continuity program. Um, but yeah, so finally having my water birth with Deanna after having um had to farewell Carlin was just wonderful. And the midwife supported me in that posterior labor to be in the water. Um, when I started asking for drugs or suggesting, you know, I might like to try gas, she said, you know what, just turn over onto your knees and um I'll put the water across your back, you know, with the shower head, and we'll see how that goes. And so I did, and that was all I needed, you know. Like I could have easily, you know, gone down the road of gas, morphine, epidural, um, you know, cesarean, if I'd have been in a different care setting and if I didn't feel as familiar with the midwife and all of that. So um, yeah, I really credit to her to starting my birth career. Um, I was able to get through and birth her in the water. I did give myself some Reiki because I'd been trained recently in Reiki 2, Reiki 1 and 2. Um, and that helped me get through transition and and um go through a second stage with her, and she just shot out once her, you know, little posterior head came through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Is that what happens with posterior or tends to?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Uh not always, no, but she was she was a small 2.5 little bubba. Yeah. So um, I think because there wasn't much to her body. Yeah. Yeah, the the midwives joke, they almost didn't catch her, but she was in the water anyway. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I just felt incredible. I got that ox oxytocin high that you get after a natural birth. Um, and being so young and having had some hard experiences, you know, as we all do in our early 20s, getting to know myself, ups and downs with mental health. I just and I really landed, you know, I had that amazing hormonal blueprint, I like to call it, of birth with that oxytocin high. And I'd never felt so wonderful in my life. And then I just fell in love with my baba and breastfed her. So that was the start of my birth career. Um feeling so incredible, um, you know, and then wanting more children as well, and having my um my next two children, um, you know, just led to me learning more about natural therapies as well. I've always been interested in natural therapies, but um yeah, I kind of got more drawn to sort of chiropractic and massage and some spiritual sort of work as well. And then I heard about the doula course through my uh current massage therapist at the time, uh, who was also an aroma therapist, and she was just sharing what the doula course was because she was friends with my um teacher, Mirabi Vines. And it looked really great. So I went and had a chat to Mirabi, and she told me, you know, this course is basically just for women who want to learn more about, you know, how to support women and and and live holistically as a woman in the world. Yeah. And I just loved, you know, what how she spoke. So I went, yeah, sounds good. And I just signed up and dove in. Yeah. So that's what led me to the door of the way.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah, beautiful. What an incredible um experience with your daughter, your firstborn daughter. It seems a bit rare these days for um someone to be supported like that and have that true continuity in a hospital setting. And when you and when you say um you could have easily had the gas and things like that, what was it about the continuity in having the midwife that helped you not go down that path, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

I think because she was just so relaxed and so trusting in my body. You know, she'd obviously seen a lot of births and seen posterior births too. Um and uh she I don't think she was worried about me either because I was quite young and so there wasn't many risk factors. I don't know, you know. But um, yeah, her her unwavering belief in my body and you know, let's just try something else. Because, you know, so that's what I really love to do with women now too, because you know, energy shifts like that are really significant. It might seem like it's really minor, but you know, from what I've seen now in my dual work, just the simple fact of believing in a woman woman and and encouraging her to try a different position or you know, a different tool can often just get them through to the next stage they need to get through and they shake off their doubts and keep going.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yeah. Do you think that what I said is like I kind of said that fliffantly, but do you think me saying that it's rare to have that fully supported natural birth where you get the same person fully believing in your body the whole time? Is that like accurate from what you've seen?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Well, yeah, it is rare. It's it's really hard for midwives to support in the way that they want to support because of the way that our, you know, systems and our culture are set up and um you know, fear of birth has gotten, you know, higher and higher over the years with all the medical intervention that's out there, and our our cesarean rates are climbing a lot higher. So that alone speaks to the fact that we don't trust women's bodies.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah. Unfortunately the women are are in that culture. It's not their fault. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what is a doula, what can a doula offer? And we are we are focusing on the postpartum period, but um just in general, what does a doula offer that can help navigate that system, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, doulas, you know, because we're independent, we don't work for anyone but ourselves and the woman and and her partner and her family. We can, you know, give really objective care and support women to make informed decisions too. We, you know, point them towards all of the current evidence when it comes to navigating all of the different birth plans and preferences they might have. Um and yeah, we mean we just hold space for them in a different way to what the midwives and obstetricians do. And um, they are incredible at their jobs, you know, and they are so needed when there are true emergencies and situations that, you know, crop up that need intervention and and they do save women's lives, you know, and I have so much respect for them, you know, in that um so it's we just compliment what they do. Yeah, yeah. We're we're we we work within our scope of supporting, you know, with education, uh physical support, emotional support, and space holding, um, basically to support the woman to have her needs and values met all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, beautiful. And the postpartum period is what you've written is a sacred window and can and is a really great time to have a dueler, I think, to to look after you. Firstly, what what what kind of support do you provide women in in that postpartum period?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Well, a typical postpartum visit would look like um, you know, arriving and maybe making a cup of tea and sitting down to have a check-in if um, you know, mum is awake in the first place. Usually she is, um, and just sort of supporting her to land and express what's going on for her and identifying what she's needing on that day. So it might be light housework, it might be a long chat about how she's feeling. She might be feeling really high, or she might be feeling really low, or um a bit up and down, or she might be feeling pretty good. And, you know, um just having her her heard and validated is really important to begin with. Um, or, you know, there might be some cooking that needs to be done, or some women do actually want a little break from their babies, not super commonly, I would say. Um, it's probably more sort of 70-30 women, and we usually really encourage women to be staying with their babies rather than us, you know, taking over and doing the bonding. Yeah. Um, but we're more than happy if she feels like she's a bit touched out or just needs some time to herself to hold baby while she goes and showers or sleeps or goes for a walk or chats to a friend, whatever she's needing. Um, and we might give her a foot massage and a shoulder massage, some Reiki with essential oils if she'd like that, just to help her feel balanced and centered again and relaxed and help the um milk flow as well if she's breastfeeding, or even if not, you know, just um the element of touch really helps her oxytocin and her mood. Uh and no mum wants to go out, you know, for an appointment within the first six weeks, usually of it. So yeah, we'd like to just provide that little bit of pampering and and body work um and energy work if if desired too. Um but yeah, basically, you know, we just do anything, anything the woman needs um to have her needs and values met. And and even just being heard so that she can express what she feels like she needs is sometimes enough because it's hard to just have a moment to think about it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like you're saying that you're the first thing you do is listen and connect with her and be led by her and what she needs is really beautiful. And what and what is it, what's is the sacred part of it that we tend to miss in the Western culture?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yeah, I think what we're missing in our or or in our modern culture as well, especially, is um just structured community support and slowness. You know, we need our culture to encourage and support us to go really slow with our healing and not rush back into life because we've been through a massive transition and birth has us feeling birth and pregnancy and birth have us feeling, you know, pretty spacey and pretty depleted, and it takes a lot out of us. So we need our community to just say, hey, you're amazing. We bow in reverence to you for creating this life and nurturing this life and and and now you need to recover. And you know, we really honor that time. Um, we need nothing from you. We're going to do everything for you while you nurture this baby and and support them to thrive so that they can, you know, become uh a healthy, thriving part of our community. Yeah. You know, so that's what uh as doers we we endeavor to uh remind the woman and the family of so that she can really also take responsibility for communicating that and and get really good at communicating her needs and asking for what she needs and and accepting the help to, as well as providing it to, you know, we're not there every day and we want to support her to have um her own framework when we're not there.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yeah, I can imagine that would be a very new skill for a lot of women and not the norm in their life. So it it it's such a good start to motherhood in that, yeah, it teaches you to create space for yourself and to learn to communicate as well. And uh what kind of support or do you support the partner as well?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah, so um for partners, we just support them to also recognize what their needs are. And you know, sometimes they do really want to be involved with the dual support, which is so beautiful, you know, and and a lot of them, you know, just need to be reminded that all they need to do is be grounded. You know, we tell them to just be like a tree, you know, be like a tree for their woman. This is throughout the entire perinatal period too. So looking after themselves first and foremost.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I think with the partners sometimes, and I can speak from my own experience as well, being the partner the first time round, it's like none of whatever your feelings doesn't compare to what the woman's feeling. Like it's it and you kind of have to keep that to yourself because you can't complain because nothing compares to have just giv given birth. And so being aware of that and providing support for that person is really important too, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's a team effort, isn't it? Yeah. And what's your experience been? And would you like to share as well? I mean, this is just me. I'm sorry, Paris. I'm so bad at this. I I always deflect the attention away from me, even when I'm being interviewed. But I'd love to hear about what your experience was like as a partner.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

It's yeah, it's it's quite interesting being on both sides of it. I think what I found is one of the things is the like a bit of a mental struggle in being the secondary parent, for lack of a better terminology. Um and seeing Ellen breastfeed our daughter and like really wanting to be a part of that as a woman. Um there's an added layer of like uh complexity because two women, like I don't know, I can't speak for what a man would feel like. But I remember really leaning in when Ellen was breastfeeding our daughter in those early days and like wanting to be a part of it. So it's so nice for me to have experienced that with our son now. Uh and then still I still I get I feel something when my daughter hurts herself, she really just wants her mama. So I'm mummy and Ellen's mama. Um, and I it's interesting because I take on the role as like the fun dad as well. With her it's interesting how you fall into gender roles despite the sex. So Ellen will be like, Oh, you're you always come in and have fun with our daughter and like play with her, and then when she's tired or wants to go to bed or hurt herself, she just wants to cry with me. So it you do have the and it will be different. My son's still only nine months, so he's just very much on me all the time. Um, so it's difficult to see like how he'll he'll be when he cries and whether he'll go to who he'll go to. But yeah, it's such a different role. Um you have different hormones and yeah. Sorry, you go.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Yeah. It's oh, it's just so important to support that bonding in whatever way, shape or form it takes to um yeah, and the partner often does feel, yeah, kind of excluded. Yeah, and it's good to like acknowledge that and honour that, or not necessarily excluded, but just a little bit separate and not so needed until you know the little ones, you know, maybe one and a half or two years old and you you get to do the you know the fun stuff. They're more communicative. But yeah, in those early days, yeah, definitely dollars do support the partner to be more involved, you know, with burping and changing nappies and sharing the sleeping schedule as well, if that feels good for both of them. Yeah. So we'll give a bit of educational support around that if they want it. But yeah, usually find that most parents have figured that out on their own, you know, because they've got their own dynamic and and needs and um preferences. So yeah, we'll we'll point them towards resources if they need it for, you know, ways to share the load. Um, you know, just just hearing them, as I said, like I really feel it's so simple what doors do sometimes. Just holding space for them to express what's going on for them helps them to figure it out on their own and and connect with their own instinct.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah, it's so simple, but such a gap, isn't it? Like it's such an important gap that you feel that's not um fulfilled by the the system. It's sort of women give birth and then they just drop off the f the system. And so for your doula to come in and support that is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, we just need to be giving our um families more Space and time. Actually, all humans, you know, wouldn't it be wonderful if every doctor's appointment we went to was an hour? And, you know, they they sat and just said, I'd like to know more about that. I'm curious about that. Please share more. And there's lots of space and time for you to just finish.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

So good. That would be so good.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

So with dual dual support visits, they're usually two to three hours. So you do have all of that time, you know, and you can take it slow. So your nervous systems can do that beautiful co-regulation as well. And as do all as the space holding is about um, yeah, just embodying that that slowness and space, you know, and curiosity um for the woman to open up and explore how she's feeling and what she needs.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah. And in so in some cultures they have confinement periods where, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just sort of um talking off the top of my head on what I know, but generally the woman's mother will live in the house and really lean into looking after the mother, and the woman won't leave the house, potentially not even leave her room, and just really focus on that bonding. And you've you've talked about how having a doula who's not a family member can be really different uh in a good way. Can you can you explain a little bit more about um the difference between having like a family member supporting you versus a doula?

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah, yeah. So um I know that you found the blog that I wrote on this. And so if your listeners would like to um read that, it's on my website. Um it's called Honoring the Sacred Postpartum Window, Why Every Mother Needs Support Beyond Family. And um when I speak about that, I really want to still honor the um family's role in supporting the woman and you know, encourage that. Um however, it's just nice to acknowledge that when someone is not emotionally attached to the woman, we can provide a different level of care from what they can. So it's it's so easy to just sink into um judgment when you know it's um it's a family member. Um, because we have our own stuff coming through, you know, and like I had wonderful support from my mother, honestly, but there there were elements of judgment and just different opinions on on how we're doing things because you know uh parenthood evolves and changes over the generations. Um and obviously your children are different um to how you um decide to had decided to parent. So um the doula really is just so neutral and so grounded, deep listens without any judgment. And there's no there's no emotional attachment or agenda about the way that, you know, um the woman is choosing to parent, you know, and the partner is choosing to parent as well. So um in that women can really just sort of let go and be themselves without, you know, being concerned about how it might affect their relationships, you know, around them as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Yeah. There it is.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

The village-wise woman, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Yeah, that we've lost, right? Like that would have been part of a family structure is having someone that you know that you don't have um this complicated relationship with. And complicated doesn't always mean negative. Like no, no one is coming through childhood without some sort of dynamic with their parent. Um, so that come that really comes up or came up for me um during pregnancy and birth, like, and not necessarily in a negative way, but just like reflecting on your own childhood and your connection with your mother and grandmother, and so yeah, I can really see the the benefit of having someone come in that's just totally neutral, holds a non-judgmental space for you, and you can just like relax into that.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

You know, boundaries there, that's right. And it's you're just expanding, you know, you're sp expanding your circle of care out, and you know, the village wise woman or women, you know, they might even be aunties, they might be related by blood, or they just might be friends of friends, you know, who know your family too. Throughout the ages, yeah, there was always the wise women in the village that just knew how to take care of a woman in a really deep way.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, so beautiful. I think when you're choosing a dual, be really clear on what kind of presence you want. For me, it was really important to have a wise woman, woman that's been had her own children, been through it, had life experience, and had a mothering presence. That's what both Ellen and I were looking for. That might you might want a dueler that's purely practical, comes in, does all the practical stuff. There are all sorts of duelers. So um I think if women can connect with what kind of presence they want to be around and yes, you're so right.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

And on that, actually, um Rhea Dempsey, who's a wonderful author um and you know, matriarch of duelers in Australia, she talks about how diff doelers and midwives um also embody different archetypes, like either the sister or the auntie too. Have you heard about that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

I remember this is in one of her books. It's like ringing a bell now.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

You know, there's so many of them, and you can do um archetype work with lots of different archetypes um, you know, within your own personality. But yeah, and and sometimes, you know, dollars do kind of switch between those archetypes depending on what the woman's needing at the time, you know, like um like the tough love mother might might need to come in if she's having a really hard time and just isn't able to kind of take responsibility for a situation, you know, and you know, the sister might need to come in when she just needs someone holding a hand through something, you know, and just you know, being on the level with her.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yes. I can so see that. And I I think Rhea says something like when you're in transition, going through transition, you need someone to be like, you can do this. You don't need someone to be like, oh, it's really hard, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

You don't need sympathy, you just need someone to go, suck it up. You you're fine, you've got this.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yeah. Is that true from what you've seen?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, because um, you know, as we're birthing ourselves as mothers, we regress a lot all the time into, you know, our inner child who may not have had their needs met and um, you know, just need to ask for help and and be small again, small and innocent and and needy and vulnerable. Um, and that's okay, like, you know, to be in that space. But, you know, then we just need to recognize that and come back into our our adult brain and and move forward if we're a bit stuck there. And yeah, having someone just demonstrate that to us really helps, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Yeah. Um transition is just so such an incredible point in the labouring, isn't it? Like that must just be amazing to see that from a dualer perspective, just to be see a woman just at that point of I can't do this. And then to see her do it.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Just yeah, just own her power and just go, you know what, the only way out is through. We've just got to do it, we've just got to knuckle down. Yeah, it's a real energy shift that you notice. And you know, it's still like little things like that happen throughout postpartum as well, if we're feeling a bit defeated. Um, so yeah, we need to be buoyed along at every point.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

And that's why support systems are so important. Because I don't know, for myself when I was transitioning, if Ellen was there or the midwife was there and was like, oh, you knew this is really dangerous, you need an epigenoral, I probably would have had it because I was so vulnerable in that. But be but because that wasn't the case and it was the opposite. They were like, you can do this. I could do it. So just really like during those transition points, like I said, whether it's with in postpartum period or in labor, what the people are saying to you that are in your corner is really critical. So be very deliberate about who you have around you.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yes, exactly. Yeah, and I imagine, yeah, you having Kylie there. She's got a very motherly um archetype about her. I imagine you felt safe and were able to, you know, look to her for the you know energetic shift and guidance to to m move forward at every point, too.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

What archetype are you, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 31:39

I've been told I'm more of a sisterly archetype, and I tend to agree. Yeah. Um Rhea talks about it's often the size of your boobs that tells her um which one you are, and mine aren't huge. So no, sisters have smaller boobs and mothers have bigger nurturing bosoms, you know, that you can snuggle into. And so that's Kylie. Um but you know, I still have a huge mother archetype about me, having had, you know, my four um earthside babies, I do love to mother and I mother, you know, a lot of things in my life, my projects, my work, you know. Um, and so I'm starting to notice more and more now when I'm acting as a mother and when I'm acting as the sister. And another thing she noticed, um, uh Rhea, is that sister people who um embody the sister often have trouble actually kind of ending their dual service and you know, moving away and um and and and not necessarily staying in touch with their clients. So I've you know, like because you've got that kind of sisterhood and you want to stay friends. So um there are some clients who I've really connected with, who I have stayed friends with and have couplers with, and um, you know, support again and again. And there are others, you know, where I've had to just go, it's fine. It's they don't need me anymore. And and you know, we've we've gone down different paths now, and and I was there for a short period of of her life, and that was where I was needed, so that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

That must be hard, yeah. That must be hard because you have such a intense, intimate relationship that, you know, something that probably would have taken years to build is actually happening in a short period of time, and then it sort of you then appropriately just like move away and they continue on their lives. It must be hard to let go of that.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

It can be. Well, yeah, you get better at it the longer you do the work. Um, because it's such a transformative time. But the more you witness, you know, these incredible transformations that the women go through and have them come out the other side feeling empowered and amazing, um, you know, the more you can go, yeah, that's fine. They don't need me anymore. And they're gonna go and have a wonderful, healthy life with their baby now, and they've got this.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, awesome. So you've seen all all sorts of scenarios. And this is a big question, but what do you think some of the the changes that need to happen at a systemic level, whether that's in the hospital system or even as a society, like at a community level, to better support women, particularly in that postpartum period?

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Yeah, it's such a big question, isn't it? Isn't it my love? Oh, and we can talk all day as dual as um but maybe in terms of the postpartum period, I just wanted to mention particularly that um the Nordic countries are leading the way in um, you know, parental leave. So if if that's if yeah, if there's anything we can start to advocate for on, you know, more systemic sort of way, it's it's the government to start, you know, providing much more leave for mothers and partners. Um, you know, like theirs is phenomenal. It's it's so many weeks. Like, you know, we get what, two for the dads, and you know, I'm not sure how many, but um, theirs is much, much more than that. And they have really family-centered um policies and practices in their governments. So um, yeah, just giving the family space and time to rest together, you know, on full pay, you know, that feels like it's needed for me. Um, and you can see um from all the stats on their countries how much healthier and happier people are.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, that's a really good one.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

That's one thing. Um, but also just like having more conversations within our um our families and our friends about how we can support the family um, you know, at the beginning. So I usually encourage my clients to send an email out to their fam, their, their family and their friends about um how they've planned for postpartum and what they're needing. Um, just you know, really to educate them on understanding what their values are and what their needs are. Um and in inviting them in. Like I it does make it me a little bit sad to see that so many people isolate themselves in postpartum now for lots of different reasons. You know, sometimes it's fear of them getting sick or the baby getting sick, or it might be just that they've you know had some bad experiences with family or friends crossing boundaries. Um so just preparing for that and exploring, you know, how your friends and family can actually be there for. And if you don't want them in your house, just learning how to, you know, ask for supports like meals or a cleaner voucher or or calls, you know. Like I think a lot of women just sort of feel like they get forgotten about because their friends and family don't want to intrude. Yeah. Does that yeah?

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

But it's it's very lonely. It's so lonely, isn't it, when you're um there with your baby day in, day out, feeding and trying to sleep, and it's just you and your partner. Like, you know, that's not a normal way to live. It's really I think we know we need to be checking in with our families really regularly. And of course, there might be days where you don't feel like talking um and you don't want anyone to come into your house. Um, you know, there's a beautiful um actual book by um I forget the author's name, but um, it's called Seven Sisters for Seven Days. And I I lend it to all of my clients if I can or refer um refer them to it. It's about having one person, I mean, they talk about sisters and it can be women, but it can be men too, one person per day of the week for six weeks. So if I'm the Monday person, I'm gonna pull every Monday morning and or text, however the woman prefers, and um reserve an hour or even three hours in that day to just dedicate to that woman, um, to check in with her, see what she's needing, turn up on her doorstep and help her around the home or hold the baby if she needs that or just needs a shoulder to cry on, um, or literally just a phone call and dropping a meal off. That might be all it is. And so that person does that every Monday for six weeks, and then they've got their other six sisters or brothers that do it for the other six days of the week. Um, and it can be for the the partner too, you know?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Isn't that beautiful?

SPEAKER_01 38:48

That is so beautiful. I'll yeah, I'll I'll I'll link that book in the show notes because I think like people tend to not know their place on both sides. And like you said, it just ends up in isolation. So having structure around it, like days of the week or like an email, is a clear communication of boundaries and of and an invitation as well. So everyone knows their place and knows what to do and how to contribute.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

People say, Oh, just tell me, you know, I'll I'll I've support you need, I'll be there for you. Um tell me what you need. But do women do that? No. No, no. They just stomach, they get too swept up, so they need uh a bit of proactivity. Um, but yeah, it's in the first place putting that invitation out there, that's right. You know, I don't know what I'm gonna be needing, but I'd love you to be a part of my support network if you have the capacity to. And and it's nice to put the caveat in there, you know, if you really are too busy and you don't have the capacity to support me in this way, that's okay. I'll still love you, you know, no matter what. And you're still part of my ability, even if you can't do this for me. But if you're keen, um, I'd love you to be involved and I'd love to pay it forward to you in the future if you have any more children or need me, you know, when you're sick, yeah, or your friends or family are sick. Um, I want to create I want to create a systemic change here. I want to be part of the change.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Beautiful. So if if someone is keen to get in touch with you, Kelly, um, I'm assuming it's all Canberra based people because it's in an in per an in-person service.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Um, yes, Canberra surrounds, it's fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Canberra and surrounds. How how would people connect with you? What's the best way?

SPEAKER_00 40:42

They can just jump on my website and um click on my um book a free chat link.

unknown 40:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

And uh I'll pop that up. Then we can arrange, yeah, a phone call or a FaceTime call or you know, in-person meetup. Um, and that's completely free of charge. All all doers usually offer that as a service to disconnect and see if you're a good fit for each other. So yeah, that's the best way to get through to me.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

And is there a a time during pregnancy that's the best time to reach out?

SPEAKER_00 41:11

No, it's never too early or too late to hire your doula. Some women actually connect with doolas even before they've conceived. Um, and others are just struggling that day and will book you in on the spot because, you know, um they haven't had a wink of sleep and they they're like, I need to do something.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

So in the postpartum.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

In the postpartum yeah. Yeah. So it is brilliant. Nine months postpartum. I had a woman recently who hired me at nine months. She just wanted to experience what it was like to have a dualer and you know, some support with sleep advice and that wise woman energy.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yeah, so if you're if you're listening to this episode and like, I wish I had that, but you're, you know, still in the postpartum period, or you know, postpartum is years after, really, isn't it? Forever afterwards. Yeah, yeah, it's forever. Yeah, it's not too late to have that experience. And that could be really healing as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Well, thanks so much for coming on, Kelly, and and sharing your wisdom. Love having you on.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely to chat. Thanks, Kelly. And all the best on your endeavours and the future podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Yay, thank you. And I hope uh all the best to your birthing woman as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Thank you. Yes, just you know, holding space and being a tree for her right now. I'll keep doing that. And yeah, blessings for a beautiful motherhood journey. I hope to meet you in person one day.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Yeah, me too. Thanks, Kelly. Thank you so much for listening to the women who guided me. If you haven't already, make sure to follow the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook for updates and behind the scenes moments. For show notes and more information about today's guest, visit our website, you'll find all the details there. If today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with a woman you know who might need. And if there's something you'd like me to explore, a question you want answered, or a wise woman you think I should meet, I'd love to hear from you. You can connect with me anytime on Instagram or through our website. Until next time, thank you.