Escape The System: It's About the BOOKS!

In this episode, Aubree and Brad go LIVE on video to discuss the books that were foundational in their journey from never homeschooled to teaching others how to do it well. They cover 5 books, why you need to read them, and what they’ll do for you as a parent who wants to homeschool…and STAY homeschooling.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

School is not actually turning out a very good product. So this one's the well-trained mind. I don't know any 19-year-old boys who would write letters like this.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

How terrible public schools are. 100% a must-read. Hello and welcome to Outside the System. My name is Brad Stafford, along with my wife Aubrey. This is our first video podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Exciting.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

We've been mainly mainly audio until this point, and then we've set up our studio here. And today we would like to talk about some of the books that have, I don't want to say radicalized us, but kind of like pulled us from what we thought was a normal way of thinking to see the other side of reality. Right. So like we see, we see in today in society today just how terrible public schools are. And even private schools, they're kind of failing.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

And so until really we started to go through some of these books and have these sort of aha moments, we didn't think any different. And we didn't really question, oh, this is what you do here, oh, this is what you do here, oh, this is what you do here, especially when it comes to homeschooling. So we want to go through some of the books today that we've that we've read. I mean, this behind us is only a fraction of our of our library. Yeah. But these are some foundational ones, and then what we'll do is uh recommend them all to you. I mean, they're like if you're homeschooling, if you want to homeschool, if you're actively homeschooling, these are just like foundational books to help you to unplug from the system, have a better understanding of how we got here. I think in terms of literacy rate, in terms of math rates, in terms of just sort of like a culture as a whole. Um and then uh and then if you have feedback, let us know. If you have some books that you want us to read or you would like us to talk about, let us know. So, first, let's start at the I mean, you were probably you were young when you first read The War Letters.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

This book, I would not say is a foundational like homeschooling book, but I think I got this for probably my like maybe my high school graduation or not too long after. It was it was copyright 2001. So it must have been just after, so I must have been like 19 years old, something like that. I got this book, started reading it, and it's a compilation of war letters from the Civil War all the way through um like the Persian Gulf. And I remember reading it and just being like, I don't know any 19-year-old boys who would write letters like this.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Other than me. Other than other than me, I was a linguist.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah. Um, but yeah, I read like the the Civil War letters were just the most eloquent letters. Even the people who made maybe grammatical errors or spelling errors, they were just descriptive and emotional, but not overly emotional, not like flowery. It was just really that the people could express themselves well. And then you continue through. And I mean, it wasn't like people during the Vietnam War were like, you know, their letters were terrible, but they definitely they lacked a bit of like the I guess the nuance, maybe, or just like the eloquence of the earlier letters. And so that kind of like put a pin in my mind where I started thinking, well, I mean, I don't know anyone who writes like this.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Because I remember when you um when we started dating and you told you were telling me about this as like one of the you're like, you have to read this book. And I started reading it and I and I said the same thing. I myself couldn't write like this in any way, shape, or form. Yeah. And it's interesting to think. So, first of all, most of them were like, most of the, especially during the Civil War, it was one room schoolhouse or homeschooling. They were doing a lot of copy works, it was mainly like a couple of books.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Right. So that I feel like that, so this book was definitely what kind of made me start questioning school is not actually turning out a very good product.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Right. And it wasn't even like we were, we weren't even married, we weren't having kids or anything like that. But I think when I look back into what started me actually just thinking, okay, this is something that I want to do, homeschooling our kids, it was reading this book because I realized schooling has a terrible product, a terrible outcome. It doesn't actually accomplish. If it's a if its goal is to accomplish um the creation of people who can express themselves well, written orally, then it's not doing it. Yeah. Because you can see it gets worse and worse and worse. And these are like the 70s where they were still, you know, decent, but then comparing to when we went to school, high school in the 90s, and like I graduated in 2000, we're not writing like that. No. And then, yeah, so so this I feel like was my first real understanding of school doesn't accomplish what it's supposed to do. And if it's if that's the goal is to create people who can are good writers, then why is it still functioning like it is? It's so terrible.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

And and I think what's interesting is just how simple their education was to write so beautifully. I mean, you if you haven't read this book, you for sure should read this book. It it will blow your mind j just genuinely how eloquent these 19-year-olds from Louisiana Right, and some of them obviously were better or were better educated than others.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

You know, you might have like someone who was, you know, a captain, but then you would also have people who weren't, who were just regular guys. And there are a lot of them are the wives too. So it's not just like the men writing letters, it's the women writing letters. And they're describing, I mean, there's some guys that describe war scenes, but also the women who are describing their lives at home.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

You know, like kind of just they're worried, they're impatient, they're kind of bored, they're just going about their normal lives, and they're able to describe it. And the interesting part too is like some of them don't spell exactly correctly, but you can tell they were taught phonics, which is interesting. And then the well-trained mind, which I read much later, yeah. Um, which we'll talk about in a couple minutes. Yeah, that actually connected those two dots for me about why the outcome was so much better for writing in this time because of the pedagogy they used.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Right?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

They were classically educated. So they learned by copying.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

That's what I'm saying. And they didn't have they didn't have like 10 million books and 16 curriculums and different teachers and different experts. It was pretty basic. But also the other thing that's that is, and I I can see it with our kids in their writing, they have time to actually write. Like these they didn't have TV, they didn't have any tablets, it wasn't, you know, every extra extracurricular activity that took up these guys' time or managing their kids doing this, that, and the other. They actually had the time to sit and and write and think and kind of use it.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

And they didn't have to be, and we'll talk about this with that with with classical education, is that creativity is not your goal for a long, long time. Yeah. And you can't be creative until you master the steps, like the foundation of what you're trying to do, which I can remember for me growing up in elementary school, it was always creative writing prompts. Oh, yeah. Were the big thing where they would put your creative writing prompt. And so in this book, so this one's The Well-Trained Mind by Susan Wise.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

We'll pivot to the well-trained mind.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Right, and you can see I've used this book a lot. I mean, the binding is coming off. And this is a book I got from um a homeschooling mom, the first family I ever met that was homeschooling when I was pregnant with our first son. So he's 18 now. So I got this book when I was pregnant with him, just after I went to her house and saw, I think she had four kids at the time. Yeah. And I'd never met a homeschool family before. And I just thought it was so cool that they were all just sitting around doing things together. So she was like, Oh, you should read this book. So literally within the first, like her first couple, first chapter, I was convinced. I was like, okay, this makes so much sense because I'm in. Yeah, it really it just explains classical education in the sense that children all develop in a very pretty standardized form. And so you teach according to their developmental progress. And so in the beginning, you're teaching lots of memorizing because children, as we all know, love to tell stories, they like to repeat things, they like to hear stories over and over again. Lots of same books read over and over again. So you just take advantage of their natural capacity for memorizing. I think a lot of people hear, oh, you know, isn't it kind of like taking advantage of the child to make them memorize so much? And they love memorizing. Yes. They love memorizing little songs, they just enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

And they can take in a lot more. My I I remember when we really first started doing a lot of memorization, and I said to myself, aren't they gonna get confused? And then I realized, no, they have so much actual capacity for different types. I mean, just think about, I think about it for myself, how many different songs I know.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Right. You know, and we have songs in our head, like useless songs.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, useless radio songs that are just pop up. A lot of weird owl in there, a lot of it. But but thinking about it in that sense, it's the same thing just with better content, with poems and literature, scripture and scripture, and hymns and songs.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Just information. They like to memorize stuff.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Like even just memorizing the countries of Africa, they enjoy it. They like rattling it off. They like they feel proud that they can look at at the continent of Africa and they can do all the countries.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

You know, it's it's it actually corresponds to the actual development of the child. You're not you're not fighting to get a child to memorize things. And for me, it was so easy because when you have a lot of little kids, you can do it all together. You can have a two-year-old involved in memorizing things because you don't need a lot of quiet. You can do it, you know, you can say, okay, everyone's saying the same thing, the same cadence. You can say, Okay, let's start out loud and get quiet, you know. But so this book, when you she explains how she was homeschooled and how her mom started homeschooling her. And I think you read through it and you're like, it all makes so much actual sense because her mom used the older methods that she had learned from her grandparents.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Right. And so it was like generational wisdom of what worked to educate a person was actually passed down well.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yes, but that was outside of schools. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

So in the schools, well, that was key. Key outside of the schools.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Right, it was outside of the schools. So when she realized that so much of education is taking um exemplary um copies, evidence, whatever, and copying that. Like you want to take the best you can, you want to take the masters of literature, and then you want to copy that.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

And then it's just like how like an artist really works. An artist doesn't just say, okay, now I'm just gonna think about whatever I want to do and do it. They practice drawing and they they do imitations for so long. And it's the same thing in writing. Yeah. And then I think it's in this book where she explains why so many people, like in our generation, are frustrated writers or bad writers, or we think we're bad writers, right? Because we're so we were so frustrated as children. Yeah. So by by pushing creative writing prompts before you actually understand how to take something that you have in your head, which children don't have a hard time with making up stories, it's taking that story from their head and then putting it down on a paper piece of paper, grammatically correct, organized, with correct spelling, with spacing in between their words, and they're putting the sentences in the order that it comes in their head. When you realize that that's two different skills, it just is like, it just makes so much sense that obviously you would work on being able to copy something first.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Right. And that's where I think it's funny because that's one of those, you know, we're reading that leaving the legacy book, um, and it talks about um nepotism and how nepotism is bad.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

But and actually copying is good because if you're copying good stuff, you are building that framework of what actually works. Same thing with with well well-managed nepotism is you're taking care of your family, you're setting up your family to take over responsibilities. It's similar in the in the copying where oh, that's you're it's um what's the word? Plagiarizing. Right. But it's not actually plagiarizing, you're not trying to pawn it off. You're really just learning. Right. You're not saying that's yours. Right. And it's okay to do that kind of um writing grunt work to just write it over and find different, you know, find different sections. I mean, you pick any book.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Right. If you have like good literature, yeah, you you also are learning spelling at the same time. So when your child is six years old and their homeschooling is often just copying a sentence. You know, six, seven, our eight-year-old does lots of copy work still. And if I he does a narration, I still write it out for him and then he copies it.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Right? He's not quite at the stage where he's going to hold what he wants to say in his head and then also be able to put it down. So, but that's the the actual, it makes sense. And the in when you're thinking about building up the blocks of learning how to write with children, the the the originality isn't hard. It's actually taking that originality and putting it down correctly. So you're building up the their confidence in doing it. So they do lots of copy works, and the other thing is I don't know, I don't think it's in this book, but I remember reading this around the same time, and again, it just made so much sense that the way that we did spelling was actually atrocious because once you spell one word wrong, then your brain has such a hard time differentiating between the wrong spelling and the correct spelling.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

So the idea with copyworks is that you only are copying correctly. You're only copying words that you're looking at. So you're not having to worry about like a spelling test, you know. I remember Mondays we would get our words, practice all the time. And then you do your Friday spelling test.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Spelling test Friday.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

And then it actually isn't helpful because if you if you did spell a word wrong, it's so hard to remember which way was the right way and which way was the wrong way. So you kind of avoid a lot of that, those problems in the beginning by just doing it right from the start. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

And not putting that unnecess because it was also just seems like a lot of unnecessary pressure.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Right. It's pressure from.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Of like, what is the point of this test? Who am I satisfying with this test?

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Am I actually And you wish you knew those words on a after a Friday.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Those things were flushed immediately. That were flushed immediately. What else from this book is is what would you say would be another reason to read it?

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Well, it is actually just like a Bible for classical homeschooling. It gives you every single subject from the grammar to the logic to the rhetoric stage. It gives you schedules, it gives you all the resources you would need. And obviously, this is an older copy, so there's even more, you know, um, of her resources, I'm sure. But it actually you I really just use this book in the beginning because it it goes through everything, every single subject. It gives you outlines, history and geography, how to break up history over the years, why you should do it, why you should learn logic, why you should learn Latin, how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Well, and actually it's interesting because I was I was gonna say, maybe not the more recent copies, because she's gone a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

No, no, I think um like maybe we don't agree on everything politically.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, but doesn't mean that it's you learn the logic here and apply it everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Because you can still, because logic isn't gonna we talk about this a lot. We're like, you know, really so much of what we've tried to do with our children is the worldview. So just because you you use a classical model does not mean your children are going to be um immune to any type of problem. But this, but but it actually it makes sense when you teach classically, and then you get lots of books and you learn about worldview yourself, and that you um yeah, it takes a lot of learning on the parents' part to be able to start to discern what worldview.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Because you don't I think the the the the warning, and this is something that we've never really fallen into is this person has all the answers. We're gonna follow it. This is just a method, this is just a method of homeschooling.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

So so you don't have to say you're not gonna take the well-trained mind and be like, literally, you have to do every single thing. Because one of the negatives that people will say, I think a crit like a critique of classical education, and I would say if you follow this to the dot, it will be a lot of time. So I actually never followed her schedules um exactly, like as far as the amount of time that was necessary, because I do think this was a different time where in a lot of ways it is kind of creating school at home, which I didn't want to do. No, um, but it gives you examples of things, so you know, like it gives you examples or maybe things to aim for, just like an idea of how often should you be doing history.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

And it's for you, the parent, to determine. Like for me, I would say, okay, cool, we did history, but our history was a history copy work. So you don't have to do history, you don't have to think of subjects. I think maybe, you know, she she definitely deals a little bit more in um like a formal schooling. Yeah, and some in some states may require you, like when we lived in Maryland, you did have to show you know that your children were studying certain subjects. Obviously, you can set you can say, okay, this was history, and it's a copy work at the same time, it's history. Um, but yeah, you don't have to think of it in terms of subjects. With classical, it's more the method of how you're learning. And you're so you're not like putting the burden of being creative on your child when they're really young, because that's what made people think they were bad writers and they were they were frustrated because they had great ideas, or maybe they're very imaginative, but they couldn't put it down on paper. And then of course that's gonna make you think you're not a good writer because you're sitting there looking, you know, your your teacher gives you like a creative writing prompt on you know your favorite Christmas or like your what the best holiday you could imagine or something, and you got all these ideas, and then the kids just sitting there staring at the paper, you know, because they don't know how to take those ideas and form them into sentences. And the other thing that copy works do is it like I feel like I'm I mean I've never done a formal writing program with our kids, and I think a lot of that is reading aloud, the copyworks, reading aloud, we do different writing exercises and things, but because your brain is so amazing, it learns how to mimic good writing.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Well, and I think what I was gonna say too is I think for for a lot of people who like for us, how did we fix that? And it doing the copyworks, um, reading good literature, that sort of got rid of the television brain that we had. Right. I think and I think that can apply for kids today, especially. You know, we talked to a lot of people who their kids, I mean, we had a neighbor who great parents, kids are very nice, but this kid was YouTube one-shotted. He spoke like a YouTube kid. And it was how do you how do you fix that? And that's number one, you gotta get them off of that. But then number two, and because kids' brains are really so, as you said, just it's just like amazing to see how much information they can soak up and how much they can change, even with a baby, you know, just how quickly that happens. But getting them on a copywork sort of regiment, and then getting them off of that YouTube, off of those screens, get them off of those screens, that's the switch. And that switch will basically completely like fix their brains.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

You hope.

unknown 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

I think it will. I think it's a it's a two-party.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

I mean, obviously it depends how long they've been on it.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

I don't think it's I don't think it's hopeless. I think, you know, maybe if you're in your like twenties and you're trying to start doing copy works, yeah, you might be. But I think I think it's I think I think it's still possible.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

I think it's also good for for adults.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

That's what I'm saying. Yeah, if it's good for adults, if it's I feel like it was if it's been extremely helpful for me, where I was a TV guy for you know my entire life, like television, boom, just humming in the background. And that's how I learn dialogue, that's how I learn stories. So having an actual book to read, yeah, copy work, that made the that's a really a a difference maker in terms of like I would say adding more wrinkles to the brain.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah, and even for adults, like you know, if you read a book that you really like, you definitely mean it it's it you can have a notebook and copy down paragraphs and phrases like that. Where's your copy? Yeah, I do. And I think it's it's good for your brain, it's like very um, you know, cursive. They've like a lot of research shows that cursive develops more like neurological connections and it makes sense. Like I remember um we've done so our eight-year-old, we've pretty much only done cursive with him, and he's really great handwriting. Now, all of our kids do not have the like best handwriting. Yeah, they all write in cursive. Um I think cursive is not like you know, it doesn't, it's not like um a fix-all for everything, but I remember when I was explaining it to you one time, and it really makes sense if you think that our brains think in cursive. And like Brad would write smoother. Yeah, you would write print, and that's why it was always kind of frustrating to write because you're like you're kind of like feel like you're scratching more.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Instead of cursive, it's just it flows, just like your thoughts flow.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Even it's funny, even now in my um sort of daily notebook of things I'm doing, things on my schedule, calls, meetings, all that sort of stuff. If and my cursive is bad still, but I find myself in It's easier to write. It's easier to write it in cursive. And then with when I'm doing it in print, usually I'm taking notes quickly, and I have to go back and pull out like the hieroglyphic like translator of what did I do write? Context clues. Yes. I'm like, okay, all right. That says California. All right, I understand that now. Alright, so next book. So this was so this is a helpful book. And this is one of the um inside a roadmap course, we talk about this book. Um inside the membership, do you do one of these books on the membership?

SPEAKER_02 22:35

I think so. Um I mean, I think it's good for any homeschooler, even if you don't necessarily like just stick completely with classical homeschooling. I think having the well-trained mind, because it is, it's like it's like um it's just a it's just such a good source to have when you have questions about anything.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Speaking of questions about everything, this book.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Look how many like dog ear. I think, and I couldn't even tell you, you know, what's the point when it doesn't actually know what it means?

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Notes, dog ears, this book. So Weapons of Mass Instruction, John Taylor Gato, a school teacher's journey through the dark world of compulsory schooling is 100% John's birthday card.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah. That's the one made him.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

100% a must read for anyone doing the homeschooling. I think the most, other than the shocking read when because this was written in this was published in um 2007 maybe? Yeah 2009 uh let's say 2009. Copyright 2009, 2010. Let's say 2009. The realities that this spotted nearly 10 years, eight years ago, seven years ago to what has has transpired now. So the the data is unbelievable. The pulling the thread of how we got here is probably the most um sort of I would say like concreting my position in homeschooling is the best. Yeah. Because if you there's there's no going back. I think everyone, if you're watching this, more than likely, you know the public school systems are like cooked. Like I'm not, I'm I'm kind of we're kind of preaching to the choir here. However, this really solidifies the why. So it solidifies that really from the beginning, it was never about education.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

It was about their technology.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

It was about it was about a certain type of education that wasn't actually learning. It was more building consumers than it was building humans who can think for themselves, who can make their own choices, who aren't easily manipulated, who can um question things wisely, who can discern through it's it's like they've completely screwed up entire generations of people through the school system. And a lot of people point back to the 70s with this with the um the uh the founding of the education like the federal education system, but it's way before that. It's way before that. Like the even the amount of was it Truman? The pre one of the presidents was Woodrow Wilson? Well, it was Woodrow Wilson. Woodrow Wilson. He's a bad guy.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

He definitely He is a bad guy. Right. I mean, I think the I remember reading this for the first time, and you just I think most people just don't believe how like how purposeful the creation of compulsory schooling was in America, yeah. And also how um clear they were in their purposes, yeah. Which were basically like the I basically the idea. There's a quote in here by Woodrow Wilson, which I mean I wish that I knew what all these dog ears were, and I'm sure it's one of these dog ear ones.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

We've we've dog eared that thing to death.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Yeah, but that basically like there's no question that the point of compulsory schooling is to make people that are malleable and that the the government and the society can kind of turn into whatever use they want to. So his his quote is basically we're not going to make we're not going to educate a society of lawyers and doctors and businessmen. They didn't need that. They needed people who could work in factories, and that as those things as as the the need for you know the the job pool changed, they needed people who could then move into other things because it wasn't gonna be factories forever, right? So basically they redefined education, not as well before this. I feel like you know, education, the idea of educating someone was to um teach them what to love, teach them to order their affections, and you had the idea was that you had to give a child the taste for good and beautiful things. Right. You had to create that and build that in them, and then you did that with reading and writing and arithmetic. Like those were the tools that you used to educate the person, yeah. And that you were educating someone, like the idea that education is neutral and you just like send your kids to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic at school.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Or that you're not getting a religious experience at school now is is is just blatantly obvious to anyone with the brain. And then you can also see when you when you read this book, that was the purpose from the beginning. Right, from the beginning. And they made they made it into a way that society as a whole just accepted it and just turned a blind eye to its massive failures. They turned a blind eye to the data that actually showed, oh, at minimum from the 70s, reading has gone down, writing has gone down, math has gone down, at minimum. We're not even talking about, I think one of the genuinely seeing where we are today, where we have multiple generations of men who have been in the school system, is to see how placated they are. Whereas boys are not meant to sit in class for eight hours and in essentially in a jail. They're not meant to sit in a jail for eight hours being told what to do by a lady whose only qualification is she went to school for that. No math teacher has ever turned their math into a business, a business or a job. They've only been educated enough to educate someone else to get them to a certain level of education.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

And that's another point of that method. Education. Right. The book he makes is that it's a giant, like we all know have known teachers that were fantastic people.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Good people.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

And really are there because they want the best for their students and everything. But it's like a huge job creation project.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

So that's one of the things that he talks about in this book, is like that was a point. Like that's a purpose of a giant education system controlled by the government. But I found the Woodrow Wilson quote.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

They hit it.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Okay. We want one class to have a liberal education, we want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forego the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Woodrow Wilson.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Woodrow Wilson. And then they basically redefine education after the Prussian fashion as a means to achieve important economic and social goals of a national character. And these are things that are in papers. Like they're published educational papers.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

You're conspiracy theorists. Here's the data. Right, there's the data. Here's the quotes, here's the video, here's the video evidence.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

They're like these, these very, very prolific, and they became very um formational with the US Office of Education in the different states. Like big, you know, big states like California, Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, lots of populations going through these types of educational like papers that were put out by experts.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Right. And so I think the the hard part was that many Americans just fell for this idea, and she talks about it in the well-trained mind, this idea that you have to be an expert to teach anything. Like you have to be an expert to teach reading. Where for hundreds of years people learn to teach read from one book.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Well, and I think now, and I was it was funny, I was I was talking to my dad about it, and he's he um, you know, my dad's older, your dad's older, our parents are in the boomer, boomer generation. I think a lot of people, let's say 40s and older, have a very much appeal to expert that's been ingrained in them.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I think 30 and under, let's say 40, 42 and under, 42 and under. We uh that I think COVID completely pulled the plug on an appeal to expert.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

That is like, well, if you're if you're not trained in this, you can't do this. Well, I just trust the person on TV because they're wearing a lab coat. Or I trust that guy because he's a study on that, I think.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Like if people wore lab coats, yes, they like actually, people just actually trusted them more. Just the white coat.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Like you're a pharmacist, you put that on, they're like, he's trustworthy.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

It's like that guy knows what he's talking about. It's like the dent, it's like the dental commercials that all of them are in their white lab coats. Oh man, this definitely makes my teeth go. But I think that that appeal to expert has been has has been detrimental because I think it's made a lot of people um like scared to homeschool. Right. Because, well, what if I'm not good enough? Yeah. And it's it you are. You taught your kid to walk, you could, you know, like there's so many encouraging truths that that you know to point you away from that lie. Right. And so then the next step is okay, well, how do I essentially equip myself? Like, do I need to be so equipped that I'm a genius, expert, that I'm that I have some sort of degree? And the reality is it's not. And with homeschooling, and you you can attest to this just as much as I can, you're never gonna be lapped by your kids if you're actually doing it with them.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the coolest things about homeschooling is you get to relearn everything.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

You know, where um if you think about the fact that most people didn't actually get a really good education in school. Like even if you were in the you know, AP level classes, there's big holes in what you know, or you realize that you were educated with a purpose, so you only learned like certain parts of history or certain you know, certain parts of a story, or you were you learn things with a purpose in mind. And then when you have the ability to go to lots of different sources and learn that way, it actually you learn so much. Like that has honestly been one of the coolest parts about homeschooling. Yeah. Is I feel like I what really received an entire education, like a whole new education, and it helps you develop just a desire and an enjoyment of learning, and that's ultimately what you're trying to like teach your kids, is that it's not just oh, you go to school, you know, for those 12 years, and then whew, you're finally done, and then you can spend your whole life doing whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Well, and that's what I think that's the thing that is is just so detrimental about the school system, is it actually kills what humans are doing and what they and really what God has created them to do is to constantly be learning. Right. It is the it is the the glory of God to hide things, it is the gl it is the glory of man to seek them out. Something like that. That's close. But that's essentially what learning is. You're never you're never ended on your learning thing in your learning journey.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

But with um with public schools, even within private schools, still, like don't let me start on private schools.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Well, I think it's hard because in this in the setting, it's just hard in a school setting to be able to have the flexibility to say, okay, let's just study this a little bit longer. Like you can go past your class time.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

You know, you don't have to be um you don't have to be so organized and everything. So you have more free time to build into. And that's another um with with John Taylor Gatto, his main thing is he's not a big classical education guy.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

No.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

He is more of an open source learning, he calls it, with like feedback loops. Yes. So the idea is more that like communal almost. Yeah, and like you learn by doing things. So his idea is that by the time you're in high school, you should be trying out different internships, you should be developing independence for the child.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Like which I agree with 100%. And I think what what's interesting in the difference in these two books, I feel like that is, and even when when you read this book, this is a must-read. When you read this book, you'll see that the groups of people in in where he was basically the story is he was he was in the public school system.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Yeah, in New York.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

These kids were failing, they were miserable. So he basically set up what we call like side quests.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, like different opportunities for the floor.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

And the and the boys just thrived. Right, all the kids thrived, but the boys, the boys in particular thrived because it was learning in action. It was show me the purpose of this, teach me the reason behind this.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Yeah, and his argument is just that people are so different, which again is so we talk about this all the time, is like we live in this time where like it's hyper-individualism, right? But then everyone's the same, right? And it's like, oh, everyone has to like UV U, but then you're in a school system that literally treats everyone exactly the same. His whole thing is that everyone's different. Right. And so being able to give people the opportunity to find what their passions are and find their skills, and a big part of that um is that you just you can't hyper schedule your children's lives. Right. So even if you're doing it because you want them to have great experiences in different sports or clubs or anything like that, if they don't have any margin um by their s by themselves without parent-directed play to figure it out, directed anything, they have to be, they have to have free time.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

They have to like you they have to just be on their own. Obviously, like you know, supervised to whatever extent you as a parent believe you need to do. Yeah. But they need to have freedom so that they can actually figure out what they like. Because I think most of us, by the time we finished high school and college, still didn't know what we actually know what we were passionate about or even what we were really skilled at.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Like what yeah, and I think because that's not really that uh what um what we call like free range parenting, that wasn't real that's not been done from a very young age.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

It's very difficult to apply at a very old age. So you have youth, you have young kids who they're helicopter-parented, always around them, always picking up, always fixing, always directing. And that when it basically just makes them absolutely dependent on some like the appeal to expert.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

As opposed to building small levels of confidence, like, oh, I can go and climb that tree. And okay, dad gave me directions on you know cleaning up the yard, or mom showed me how to do this, and then that those sort of skills and and really just like learning um independence grows as they get older. So, like in the book, they're older kids who are able to go out, yeah. So they're able to go out and do little business projects and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

And he gives examples of people like that we've all know, we all know that completely broke the mold and went out of the system.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

And that so much of that you have to do by failing, which is really hard for parents.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

So in our world, it's really hard to let your child fail and deal with the consequences. And it's again that weird like dichotomy of we live in a time where everyone gets like the participation trophy, right? So no one actually fails. But then the the point is that failure is like essential for learning things. It's like when you learn start learning a new language, you learn the best when you make a mistake.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

But then it's so hard to make a mistake. So like all of us, you know, for it's just so hard to think about failure.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

It's like this perfection is actually preventing us from growing.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Yeah, and like you think you're helping by giving the participation trophies, but really you're not actually letting you're not letting the the people who actually excel at something excel and have that distinction of being good.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

And then you're making the other kids think that failure is the worst possible thing that could happen, but really it actually is how you learn.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah, yeah. You have to you have to fail to learn. Right. And failing forward is how you go, okay, well, I did that wrong. Okay, you did that wrong. Let me do this.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

It's hard for people, especially like for us as parents, it's hard to have your kids fail at something. And then I think the other thing we were talking about the other day is like with with our older kids, we have that we have them on Find My the Find My app. Where on the one hand, as a parent, it's reassuring, but then at the other, the other idea is that they just actually when do they get independence? Like when do they have freedom from their parents? When do they have that confidence to to say, okay, I trust you?

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

I don't know. You know, it's a hard balance because it is it is nice to be like, oh, he's just he's at target, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we trust our kids. It's just we do, but it's like the can the It's just like it's a it's one of those tools that you go, it's a valuable tool. Yeah. I'm glad I didn't have it when I was a kid. They would have been stalging them down. Okay, so weapons of mass instruction. The I think the the best thing the the the number one reason to read this is to equip a parent with the sort of the backbone to f to say, uh-uh, I'm not going back. This is bad.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Right. You're when you read this book, you will not be like, well, let's just try it for the year. Yeah. And if things don't work out, there's always well you can just get back.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Once you read this book, you're in. And you're not gonna you're you're doing kind of whatever you have to to make that happen.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

And it also helps you to see that you literally can't fail.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Yeah, absolutely not. The bar is so the bar is so low relative to private schools and public schools for a parent who just loves their kid and and and raises them in a in a way that loves them to basically teach them how to learn and love learning, yeah, you're gonna win.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

You're gonna win. After you read this book, you're not gonna be like, it's a better choice to just put them back in public schools. It's definitely not going to be. No. And I think, you know, one of the things that I I talked about in the course was that when you have a really strong why, it gets you through hard times, frustrating days. Yeah. You know, it's not gonna be easy every single day. You're gonna have personality conflicts with your kids, it's gonna happen. Yeah. But when you read that book and you're like, worth it. I just have to push through and figure out a way to solve these problems. Yeah. There's no going back.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah. And a lot of it too is is helpful. It was helpful for me to understand why I thought the way that I thought. Because I always hated school. I always was just like at the bottom. I was never I never enjoyed it. And reading that was like, yes, because it wasn't meant for you. So it was freeing. It made me feel like I wasn't as dumb as the as society.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

It's sad because you see that that's part of the point is to break those people who don't fit into the mold. And I think all of us had kids when we were in high school, the kids that like that dropped out or you know, got kicked out of school, started drinking a lot young, doing drugs young. That's a big that's a result of compulsory schooling. Like if they can't break you, yeah, they get you out. Right. And it and it's made to make you feel um inferior. It's made to make you do that.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

What what's so sad is I can I can think back on a handful of kids that I knew growing up down there that could have been they they thought like me, they thought outside. Right. But they were so basically like punished within the system that they just went down the like they had to run it back. They had to get out in an aggressive and and unhealthy way.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

They didn't make it through, they just had to get out. So it was drinking and it was drugs. Right. And those are guys who were, it's like you, they're hard workers, they're skilled, you know, skilled craftsmen, they're they're the kind of like just normal American men who should never have been in a system like this.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

But because they were, they be and and in order to they probably had leadership qualities too.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Because that's part of the thing that he talks about in the book, is that you know those the type of people that are often our good leaders were the ones that were actually like vilified and made to seem like they they were bad.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

When really they probably had leadership qualities that if they had been in a different situation, someone could have actually helped to mold that person into a good leader.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's it it comes down to a lot of like just genuine lack of discipleship where compulsory schooling, private schooling actually removes the number one, the the number one and two disciples in a child's life, and that's the parents. Right. So it sort of pulls them out. Right. So let's let's quickly go over two more two more books. These are um so the first one is Why Children Matter by Doug Wilson. If you have young kids, especially for dads, this is a must-read. Um the most valuable information that I've that I that I was able to get out of this was um really teaching me things that I never learned about how to be a dad, being purposeful with my time, being purposeful with my words, understanding my own responsibility and how the rest of the house goes. And really just kind of enjoying that responsibility of being a dad of young kids where you're not sleeping a lot, you're frustrated, they're spilling things, they're not listening, it's tough. Yeah. That's it, that's okay. Like that's that's the work. So from a from a really just from like a dad and parenting situation, because when you're de when you're in when you're homeschooling, you're around your kids a lot.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

A lot. Drugs me, they're around all the time. Now, till 10 o'clock at night. But so it's like 5 a.m. to 10 p.m. It's like, what? Go away. But this helps to uh to really equip you for that because I mean we're first generation homeschoolers. Right. A lot of our friends and maybe viewers or listeners are first generation. Also first generation. So they're not used to what does my day look like with being around all my kids? And ultimately it's how do you control yourself in in those situations? This is very helpful.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yeah, because I think obviously you're gonna have issues as a homeschool mom if your kids don't obey you.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Right, right. So you're obviously gonna have to do it. That is gonna be a tricky. Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

If they don't obey you, period, they're not going to obey you when you do, when you homeschool. So this this book really helps you to understand like what is discipline for? Right? How is discipline different than punishments? What are the principles that you're trying to build into your kids? Not just like rules. Yes. Like what are the what's the principle behind the rule? Why gentle parenting is actually not loving.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

No.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

I think that's it. This book really will help. I think a lot of parents are like they're kind of wooed by gentle parenting because it sounds loving.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

It's easy.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yeah, and I think it sounds loving. So I think they think that they're loving.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

And then when you realize it's actually not loving to allow your child to have like no boundaries. Like you ha as a parent, children, as a parent, you thrive, but your children thrive with boundaries. And as a parent, it's your job to create the boundaries, and you're all gonna be happier. I don't care what any gentle parenting person tells you. It's actually better when your child has boundaries for everyone in the house. So this book helps you to understand. Um, I mean, we could talk about that for ages. Like this book you could just do like hours on this.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

But it helps you to understand how to choose principles and biblical principles, but also just like actual principles that actually make sense and then how to how to discipline.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Yeah. Because I think that's it, that's what's interesting, is when you're when you're homeschooling, you have to have structure.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

There has to be some semblance of obedience. And I think just like with compulsory schooling, we can see the product. We can see the product of gentle parenting. And it's not great. No. Like it re it really is it it's like there may be a way to do that, but it's maybe one in a million, as opposed to well-managed, self-controlled discipline from a biblical standpoint. Right. And that's the I think that's the difference. Is it and it is easier to, it really it's almost. I think the thing that with with gentle parenting is it kind of outsources the parent's responsibility to the state.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Or to the child.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Or to the child. I mean, I think that's the thing about gentlemen. Eventually to the state.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

But yeah, and I think that's the thing with gentle parenting that's crazy, is it basically is you're you're not admitting any type of hierarchy in the parent-child relationship. Which is pretty wild when you think about it. And obviously it's not it's not ending well, and and you're just assuming that the child will do it on their on their own. That they're going to like learn how to do these things on their own. And I think most people, like when you have a toddler, and you know that they're overtired. You know, you're not gonna give the child these principles or discipline when they're overtired. But the idea is that you're going to parent to try to kind of um to understand that they're overtired, and that's the reason. Not because they're having a temper tantrum because they don't get their way. You're just like, okay, you know, like for instance, like the other day we were at, you know, church and had a long, a long, like um, a long church service and then picnic afterwards. And so obviously, I'm not gonna like insist on like certain type of obedience at the time where the baby's not napped all day, like she's overtired. So you so you're not you're not like um legalistic.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

And and I think that's what he does such a great job explaining is it's not legalism, it's not like keep the rules for the rules, it's actually give them principles so that they learn as a child, and then when they're 18 years old, they have self-control and they've learned those things, and that's why it's loving.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

And that's why gentle parenting that gentle parenting isn't loving, is because you basically are you're you're putting that burden on your child. We all have to learn self-control at some point.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Yeah. It's I think it's just it's it's part of the the the the learning journey, and really, and this is the the only thing that I that is that I have taken that is taken out of this book is my biblical responsibility in education and in like parenting. So it's like it's take it's made it, and this will be the only clip of this because I think we've been this one's so good for the worldview stuff too. It's very good for the worldview. Um, but with with with this one, it does help to especially because I was I was gentle parented. I always say if my mom was a big black mama, South African black mama with a belt, I might have been a different person. It's like beating me. I that's and that's not healthy either, that's not normal either. No, but it really is like understanding um because I think the swing toward gentle parenting is because number one, they they've never seen biblical discipline done well, and and and number two, it's become abuse, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

They had the those examples of people who didn't spank appropriately.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Right. Right, right. They beat them. It was a beating as opposed to a loving discipline that eventually, and when you when you when you discipline well when they're young, then the discipline is not necess as necessary when they're older. Right. So that I think that's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

There's also the responsibility of the parent. Like he talks about that in here. It's like that was a big one. Right. You can't just be, you know, telling your six-year-old son that he should have self-control, but you're losing it on the regular. And as a mother, too. Exactly. You know, that's that's yelling, that's losing your temper. Yeah. You can't do that and then expect your child to have any type of self-control. Right. So, yeah, just like with so much with homeschooling, it really is a re-education of yourself in so many ways and learning to be to learning to actually have a strong household because most of us weren't raised like that. We weren't raised spending so much time together because both of our parents worked and we were at school.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

So it is, it's a lot of people together all the time.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Yeah. And you have to adjust from a from a like a a why, a how, uh, a a foundation, uh, parenting. There's all these different pieces that I think when you're when you're going into it can seem very overwhelming. Like, oh my gosh, I have so much work to do to like fix myself. But it really is just like one thing at a time. You know, like wherever you are, whatever book you start with, great, you start to work on that. And there's all, I mean, these are just books that we recommend. We've got a lot more that we can recommend for different situations. But ultimately, it's like you just have to start to do the work. You you the best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. The second best time is now. If you didn't grow up in a house where you were biblically disciplined, guess what? You know that that works. So figure out how that works and how to do that yourself.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Yeah, and the idea too is that we are not we don't want to be like gatekeepers of things where because we are older than most people obviously with little starting out homeschooling now, if they're starting out with like a five or six-year-old, or probably older. So we've had the extra 10 plus years to learn those things. So I think having that generational connection between people is so important because you can go to have a person to go to and say, Hey, I'm really frustrated with you know, even something specific, like I'm having a hard time getting my kids started every morning at the same time. What are some ideas that I can do to help that?

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

You know, little things like that where I feel like for me I had to figure out a lot of those things, but I but I remember like having this like revelation that if I was frustrated, I had to figure out why I was frustrated and like pinpoint like what is causing me to be frustrated. And I remember a big one was that I felt like having lunch and then having to get like the baby down for a nap. And this was a long time ago, and realizing it was just that pressure of having lunch to clean up. If I didn't clean it up, then the kitchen was gonna be a mess, and then I would be late putting the baby down, and then I would be late doing this. So I think our oldest son was maybe like eight, and I was like, buddy, your job is now dishes. Your job is to do all the dishes while mommy puts the baby down. Yeah, and it was that worked, and it helped me to get out of that feeling flustered or feeling like I had too much stuff to do, and it's so it's working on the parent. Yeah. It's not like going around and being like, this house is a mess. Pick up your stuff. It's okay, I'm flustered. How can I help?

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

How can I control myself?

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Yeah. And it's a it's a learning process each and every day. Like you're never, and that's and it's part of the reason that we created anyone can homeschool is the coaching where you're basically we're not teaching you how to how to teach.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

We're helping you because more more often than not, you haven't been equipped in this stuff. Right. And you don't necessarily have someone who is a third party that you can go to and say, okay, here's a situation I'm dealing with.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

So we did that, and then with the with the the roadmap, it really is like the foundational information that people need to build to get to a point really in a weekend, they can go through the course and really become experts and a general understanding of what I need to do, what I don't need to do. Here's what this is, here's what that is.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

And I and I think one of the things we realized was that a lot of people are, I think they're on social media following a lot of homeschoolers because they're they want to learn. Yes. They want that help, but then Instagram is not actually made. It's it's made to make you feel like you're getting free content. Yeah, you're like, you look at this free, amazing content I'm getting, but it's not free because it's your eyeballs and your time.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

They're the product. Right, and then we're the product of social media ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

And then it's hard to actually take those things that you're learning because there can be so many great things, lots of encouragement, beautiful things, a lot of women sharing really um encouraging, helpful things, but at the same time, how does the mom at home apply that?

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Apply that. Right. And I think that's that's where it's important to read books.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

That's why it's important to listen to people who have done it before.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Say, talk to you know, people within your church, like if you know parents, those are sort of things, like those are the resources. Real life, real life, real like actual real life resources. So all right, well, I think that is all for today. Um, all of our books here and more. If you have questions, you can shoot us an email, support at anyonecanhomeschool.com, and either myself or Aubrey will reply to you. Uh, if you have any other questions or have any topics that you'd like us to discuss, please let us know. But in the meantime, have a great rest of your day.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Bye.