Ep. 017 | Breaking Chains and Changing Laws

In this profoundly moving episode of SOS: Stories of Survivors, host Serina Dansker sits down with Lisa Pinney-Keusch, founder of Rock The Walls Foundation, for a raw and inspiring conversation that speaks to the heart of resilience and reform. Titled “Breaking Chains and Changing Laws,” this episode takes you on Lisa’s powerful journey from personal trauma to purposeful advocacy—turning pain into purpose and igniting a movement to transform lives and legislation. Her story is a testament to the strength of the human spirit and the power of using your voice to spark change. This is more than a story—it’s a call to action.

To learn more about Serina Dansker, purchase her book S.O.S.: A Lesson on Love, Loss, & Survival, book her for a public speaking engagement, and discover more stories of hope, healing, and resilience, visit www.serinadansker.com.

S.O.S. Stories of Survivors — Where Survival Sparks the Soul.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Hi, and welcome back to SOS Stories of Survivors. I'm your host, Serena Dansker, and today we are going to meet the survivor who walked out of an unhealthy marriage and is squared up in family court and is now shaking the pillars of Connecticut's law so that no one else has to fight alone. This is Lisa Penny Kush, and this is SOS Stories of Survivors. Welcome, Lisa. Thank you, Serena. I um thank you so much for being here. And your story is one that resonates so deeply with me. It's such an important topic. Um, so I just want to dive right in and let's start by talking about your background, where you grew up, what you did for a living.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Sure, yes. Um I grew up, I was born in New York City and uh lived in Stanford, Connecticut in my formative years, I call it, from when I was 10 years old through high school. And uh, you know, I grew up like a lot of us did in the 80s, running around our neighborhoods with friends. Um, I went to college in Philadelphia, and um and then I launched into a career in the music and entertainment business in New York City.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

That's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

It is tell me about that. Um when I left, I just went door knocking to get jobs and sales and advertising, like I was told I should do. And I ended up walking in the Tavern on the Green one day, and they needed um an event person there. And so I ended up working with the owner, Warner LeRoy, who um uh was the cr son of Mervyn LeRoy, who was the director of uh uh uh The Wizard of Oz. Oh, wow. So I worked with him for three years, and it was very exciting. And through him I met other people and realized I wanted to do special events and ended up at Roseland Ballroom in New York City.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Wow, that must have been an amazing time. Now, you know, you're busy, you're working, you're launching your career. Tell me how you know, how did you meet your your ex?

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Um, I actually met him uh right when I graduated uh college. Really? Before I launched my, you know, got into my career. And um we started dating and we ended up dating on and off for seven years until we got married. So there were there were a few stretches in there, even for a year at one point.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

So you had like this this this kind of a whirlwind romance, you know, and and there were some stretches where you went back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Were there red flags that um, you know, unfortunately for those of us back then, we didn't have terms like that. You know, we didn't know about red flags, we didn't know about um things to look out for, nobody talked about this. You'd say, you know, he wasn't being very nice, or he didn't call when he said he would. There was no such thing as ghosting, or you know, there's so much more information today.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Oh gosh, I I know. I mean, I think back to relationships that I had, and you know, um just you you learned by trial and error back then. And uh, and sometimes when you're when you're caught up in the moment and you're caught in love, you know, you overlook things too. You don't see sometimes what's right in front of you. So you're in this whirlwind relationship, you he pops the question, you say yes. So how does how does that go down?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah, I mean, we had we had broken up a few different times. And um, and when we got back together, uh, it was a little bit older, I was 28, 29, and uh we ended up going to Europe and he asked me uh in Paris. Oh, how yeah, yeah, it was, and um, you know, with the back and forth, it was really interesting. You know, people today talk about um your gut feeling and your instincts, and um, you know, I had a lot of those feelings, but I was taken over by this fairy tale and the idea um, you know, the words that people use today, love bombing and coming in and saying, Um, you know, you're so amazing and we're in love, and it and it seemed so magical. And the moments that seemed magical were and the moments that weren't weren't. So I was caught up in that.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

You know, it's it and I can see that happening so easily. You know, just when you're when you are in love, even when you get that that feeling in your gut that something is not right, but we push it away or we don't listen to it too often. So you had that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

I did.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, and and you just said, Oh, it's probably just nerves. I did, you know?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, I mean there were a lot of things that happened even between being engaged and getting married, and I just pushed it away.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Well, and uh and a lot of us do, you know, and then I sometimes you have to learn by fire, you know, and you know, when you figure things out that geez, you know, if only I would have paid attention to that, to that inner, that inner voice that that tries to steer you, like call it your guardian angel, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Right. I mean it's amazing again with all the information today and what I've learned um since I walked away 12 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So yeah, let's talk about that. What when did you first realize you you know that this was not the relationship for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Uh not the relationship that I necessarily thought it was. Uh, you know, it it it was evolving over years, but um, and you know, I I know people in different relationships uh see things differently, and um I call it sort of a spectrum on of relationships because you have people who are in very abusive relationships where there's physical uh violence, and then you have other parts of you know, um relationships where it's just people are arguing or it's psychological, and so um it's really hard to define unless it's obvious.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

How long were you married for?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Um well we got married in 1997, so officially 19 years. Okay, um, but it took a few years.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Yeah, so like how long how long until you said, you know what? Well, did you go for did you go to therapy?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Oh, therapy, lots of therapy. It was lots of therapy.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Was he willing to go with you to therapy sometimes?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Sometimes. And and in my mind, I was never gonna get divorced. It just wasn't an option. I grew up uh in a family of, you know, my mother had gotten divorced, my father, and although it didn't look like this exactly, um, I just was never gonna do it. So I tried everything. And you had children? Had three children right away, or did you wait? Um, yeah, we waited um a couple of years or so, and I was involved, I had my career too. Right, right. And so, you know, living in New York City and the career that I had, I was very busy. I was in the entertainment business and music business. So um I was very distracted, and you can do that in New York City. So uh it was easy not to pay attention to a lot of things, and I had the kids and I had family, and and then my mother got sick and she passed away. And so so it was there was a lot of other things happening where I didn't have to pay attention so much until until we moved to Connecticut.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

So, what was the catalyst to move to Connecticut?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Um, my mother passed, I'd stopped working after um our second child. It was just a lot. My job was a 24-7 job, and I'm a I'm a hundred and fifty percent person. So when I had my kids, I was doing that 150%. Right. And I was doing my job, and I just I said I need to take a break to focus on being a mom.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Oh, that's beautiful. It's it's a mom being a mom is a full-time job.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

It's a full-time job. And so I did that, and then when my mother um got sick a couple of years later or so, uh, we ended up moving out. After three kids, we weren't we didn't have the money and we weren't gonna put our kids in um private school in New York City. Right. They were in public school, that was great. Uh, but we ended up moving out of the city for more space and for the school system.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Right, right. So you're so you're in Connecticut, you got a house in the burbs, if you will. And it traumatizing for me moving out of New York City.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

It took a while to do that.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

But you're from there, so you kind of went back to your roots, you know. Yeah. How did your kids were they were they older? Are they still young?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

They were 10, 7, and 3. Okay. So um there was a lot of running around and a lot of um, you know, a lot to acclimate to. And honestly, um, you know, when you're sitting in silence, you know, a lot of things come to light.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

So that's when you started to realize that maybe this was not what you signed up for.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah, just a lot of things came to light and um things started changing and looking very different over the next few years.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

I I I have to ask you, you know, you know, someone who's been in a relationship where, you know, it's not at Whee's Roses and you have gone to therapy, what was your, you know, your aha moment that that said, you know, that made you decide this is enough? Was there a single catalyst or um a bunch of small things that set off maybe some silent alarms?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, I mean, there were a few things. Um, I could say I um I found some text messages that were a little alarming. And um I I ended up um um investigating that.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

So there were things that came up that, you know, crossed lines.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, it's you know, it's so crazy because many of our listeners hear the words domestic abuse and they picture bruises. Um you've said, you know, sometimes the deepest scars are invisible. And I know, having gone through grief, that, you know, a lot of times people wear their scars on the outside, but some of the most emotional and traumatic scars are worn on the inside where people can't see it. And can you just describe what coercive control is in an everyday term so our listeners can kind of understand? Because I know you've done so much research out there, you know, and you don't have to speak specifically about yourself, but about the women that you've come in contact with and talked to.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah, you know, the information that has come into my world. Um, I am a uh knowledge as power person, so I've done um um a lot of research over the last several years. I didn't understand really um what my life looked like, what was happening around it, and um even in um uh from parts of my childhood, you know, people don't understand coercive control. And what that is is um it's terminology like manipulation and controlling behaviors. And this could be from your boss, this could be from a parent, this could be from a spouse, and um and it looks different on so many counts, which is what I talked about, the spectrum of behavior and in relationships. And so um, so manipulation and control, um, certain things like um uh that people don't understand, you say, oh, they're just ignoring me, or we're not communicating well, or um they're just telling me what I can and can't do with our money. Um financial, and so there's financial abuse. Um, some relationships where people say they're only allowed a certain amount of money every week, and and they start to believe that certain situations are normal. Yes, and as you're living through them month after month, year after year, it's confusing because, and I've talked to a lot of different women, you start to believe this is the norm. And people have likened it to putting a frog in in water on a slow boil on the stove. And after a while, the frog gets used to this and they slowly just die. And it's not like you know, people put used to put a lobster in a boiling pot of water and and and they would die instantly, and that seems very traumatic and sudden. And when you're doing it like that, and it's a slow boil, you don't even realize it's happening.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

You know, that's it's crazy because when I was a financial advisor before I became a mental health advocate, and I cannot tell you the amount of women that would come into my office who knew nothing about finances, when their husbands would die, especially the older generation, they didn't even know how to write a check. Not that we write checks anymore. I mean, everything's automated, but just the simple, you know, financial things, they just left everything to the man and and they had no clue as to whether they had anything or you know, and it it was shocking to me, yeah, how many women and and and I I made it my business to teach people. This is the ABCs of investing, this is what you have to know. You have to understand, you know, how to, it's like the business. You are the CEO of you, right? You have to take care of you.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

So that I I and we grew up in a in a in a in a really unusual time, those of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s, especially, because we had the 50s and 60s where this was the norm, where the men took care of everything, the women stayed at home and made dinner, and they didn't really have any knowledge. I mean, think about, and I don't know the exact dates, but I think it was 1974 when women were first allowed to use a credit card.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

And and and this is after during the sexual revolution when people were, you know, peace, love, and and um traveling around and women were free-spirited, but it wasn't necessarily like that, and it certainly wasn't always like that. And so for those of us growing up in the 80s, this was the norm that boys and girls we went out and we could do whatever we wanted. We went to college and we didn't really think about this. But I believe that in the background of all of this, the men uh and the patriarchal mindset, it's a mindset, it's not just men, it could be women too. Yeah, but it is a mindset that um mostly the men had the power over finances, over relationship, over government, over a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

You know, that's that's so true. Because growing up, I I was in the financial business and it was mostly a male-dominated business where you know the financial advisors were mostly men. And I remember I went in to Merrill Lynch and I said, I want to be a financial advisor when I got out of college. And you know, the manager looks at me last goes, You should be an assistant, a secretary, you know, you'll be good at that. And so, of course, I'm like, okay, you know, not realizing. And after a couple of years of that, I realized, no, I am smart, I know what I'm doing. I went out and I got my licensing and I went on my own and I became an independent financial advisor. And and because you could, we were breaking down walls in the 90s. It took us a while, but you know, let's let's talk about that because you know, you've spoken about the family court and the labyrinth that it is to get through. So here you are, you're you're recognizing there's things are not right. You want to get out of this marriage, but how did the courtroom, how did the family court in Connecticut, um, how did that work with you? How did that feel compared to the battlefield you were fighting just in your own home as well? Right. You know, and you had kids too, so you're dealing with all of that on top of this.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Right. I mean, it's already traumatic and difficult enough to say that you want to end your marriage and your relationship, knowing what it's gonna be like for the children. I mean, you know, I was in therapy, I was trying to get guidance through it and um to do the best thing. And I did grow up with my mom and dad um divorced, and I had a stepfather, and not that it was always easy, but but um our in-laws, my grandparents on all sides, we would all go to each other's um um um holidays, and again, it wasn't always easy, but this is the way it was in my grandmother's home. She would have my my cousin's mother, even though they were doors. So that was the norm to me. You know, I know this was gonna be difficult, but we'll work together and we'll make it okay for the kids. And um, and so as this, I understand the first several months or a year or two can be difficult and challenging. Yeah, but what I was not prepared for what was to come. So we got attorneys, uh uh, I backtracked, we had a mediator because I wanted to do this a nice way. Yes, of course. And and you know, um uh in a way that would be as um amicable as possible. And um, it was anything but shocking, yeah, shocking. Um, and um we we each hired attorneys and we went to court, and I remember going several times over the course of the first year and two saying, well, we've got the truth and we've got the facts, and there is nothing else. And that used to be my mantra. Well, there's nothing else. This is a court of law, and here we go. And and I'm in my 12th year dealing with truth and facts, and it is dystopian what I've come to realize um is happening in the family courts and what I've been through, and as I've opened up my world and um gained knowledge into this, uh, what is happening in Connecticut, what is happening in every state, and what is happening around the world is shocking. And and I wouldn't have believed it, I suppose, unless I was dealing with it myself.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Okay, can you give us like some highlights on on that? What what are you seeing? What's shocking? What is what is it like when you're when you're in this situation?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Um, you know, standing in a courtroom and presenting documents and presenting information to someone who is a layman like myself, or at least I was. I'm an honorary attorney at this point. Um, but someone who is dealing with this, um you you see what's laid out in front of you, but what the judges um are handing back as orders and how they are processing the information about you and about your children and the situation um comes back as twisted narrative and twisted orders. So you're saying, here's here's what's happened, here's here are the numbers and the information, and we need to process it so we can get divorced and move along. And let's say the other side is um presenting different information. You to me, you're thinking this is a judge, and they're there to assess the information with law and order behind them, right, and to give an order uh and a path ahead that makes sense, right? That is structured in law, constitutional law and due process, which means you uh it's due process, you are allowed a specific process that is outlined.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Well, there are laws. There's laws that you are entitled to child support, you're in child, you know. I, you know, I don't know the numbers or anything like that, but I know generally um from friends or family that have gone to it, there's there's um alimony that would be paid, there's child support, at least while the kids are young, or maybe there's a college fund that gets set up for the children so that they're taken care of for college. So you're telling me that it's not that cut and dry.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

It's not. I suppose in certain situations it is cut and dry. But when you're dealing with coercive control, and and again, that can come from certain parties involved, it can come from attorneys, and then they bring in other parties, therapists, psychological evaluators, guardian ad items that are supposed to be helping the children, and sometimes there um is CPS, which are government agencies. So um, in many cases, not just mine, but in many cases, you're now dealing with four, five, six, seven agencies and people.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

And you're paying for this attorney while you're doing all of this.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Well, you're paying for almost all of them.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

No, and so you don't they're telling you or you're ordered to do these things, and you I didn't understand. I just you're doing what you're being told to do, and you're thinking, okay, we're we're gonna be resolving this soon. And then all of a sudden, and again, I'm not alone in this arena, you are finding your months and years into this, and you're talking tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars that most people don't have, that we didn't have I didn't have, and um and so so you're telling me that, like, okay, if I go out and I shoot the neighbor, not that I ever would do that, but would I, you know, and I had no money, I would go to court and I would be appointed an attorney.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

That's right. But if I were and I never would do this, either marriage. 31 years happily, thank God. But if I were to get divorced from my husband and I found myself in a situation where I needed an attorney, I just I have to pay for that. Even if I'm don't have the money or the wherewithal to handle it, maybe I'm busy working three jobs supporting my baby. I I I'm just at the mercy of the person I want to get away from.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

You're at the mercy of this um what we call a corrupt court system. Wow. Where there is it is it is they are people who are yielding power and there is money going around. And it and and and again, I'm 12 years into this, and I have a lot of knowledge, I have a lot of, I've cultivated an enormous amount, um uh many relationships of experts in this field, in Connecticut, in the US, and globally, so that now I understand how a lot of this is happening, but yet I'm sitting here and I still can't make it stop in my very own case. And so it is really hard to um describe how it's all happening, although um every day there's more information coming out as to how it's taking place. Okay, it really is the family court because criminal court, civil court, um, they are bound by different structures and laws uh because they're jury of our peers, which is what we should have. Right. In this court, you have one person, one judge who gets to make decisions. They are not trained, most of them are not trained in domestic abuse, they're not trained in psychology.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

What about the child? So let's let's let's back up a little bit. So here you are, you're you're battling the court system, you're you're trying to keep your children on a healthy path at school, you're for taking them away. Are you still living with your husband because finances are or have you pulled out and are now trying to, you know, I mean, um, I guess it goes both ways, you know, depending on what you can afford to do.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Um, well, it doesn't. It depends on who your judge is, who your attorneys are, and what your basic knowledge is. And in our case, uh, we were ordered to do this thing called bird nesting. And um, it's in the name of the best interest of the children. So they stay in the family home, and each of you is ordered to go find another place to live during uh while the other person has their parenting time. So I was for a year almost, I was staying in hotels, I was staying on family and friends' couches.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

And you could imagine this as a mother of three children, them watching me pack up my bag uh on every other weekend and every other Wednesday, and having to figure out where I was staying and making sure the kids felt okay about this.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

How can they? I mean, who makes these rules? I that's that's that's insane.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

That's part of this, is that there are no rules and it is very random. And um, you know, someone like me, I mean, I consider myself a very strong person, right? And I'm resilient and I've been through a lot in my life, and there are others who who who cannot deal with this. I mean, I have moms calling me literally every day sobbing, and they're so forlorn, and you're trying to keep them from doing something drastic because they feel helpless.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

And and and that brings me to, you know, you're going through all of this, and you, you know, just regular life, you go through ups and downs and highs and lows, and your kids go through things. And so when you're at your lowest, what or who keeps that pilot light of hope burning for you?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Um, you know, there are a lot of different ways um of dealing with it. Everybody deals with it differently. For me, I had a therapist um and I I just thought, I don't have a choice. I need to to make this right. I need to do this for me and my kids. And I had little guardian angels, and um I started doing, I started meditating, and um, you know, you have a couple of people that are your um, you know, I had a couple of good friends and family that were by my side.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Thank God. Uh thank god you had a support system. I I I think now or then or all of it more than ever, you need that support system. You need to have, you know, places to go to to to talk about these things. Now, I I I did do an interview with a woman, uh, Dr. Mohanna, who talked a little bit about how hard it was when, you know, 30 years ago when she went through a similar situation and and how she's volunteers and tries to help people as a psychologist. But I know that you're you founded uh uh a nonprofit organization called Rock the Walls. And this wasn't just like a personal victory or something, it's a lifeline that you're creating. Can you talk about it? How the idea uh sparked and and what you know, yeah, talk about all that.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yeah, you know, uh again, I've been dealing with this for 12 years and it's taken different turns, and uh again, really dystopian to me because I think, how is it that I'm dealing with this for so long? And people have said to me, How are you still in court? Why are you still dealing with the divorce? And I said, I've been divorced since 2016, but this is financial and litigation, and so um um right before COVID, I was driving around, um, or it was actually during COVID, um, I was driving around with my father who came to visit, who's been just the most incredible um support in every way for us, financially and spiritually and emotionally. Um, I would never have been able to get through this without him. And um, and uh we were driving around together one day and we were talking about how we can help people and how we can get out of this, and we started talking about um what we can do to help and what I can do to help. And I used I'd say, we what would have helped me all of these years? Yes, and what would have helped me is finding other support and knowing there were other people out there, which I had now started to find, because I thought I was alone. And I said, What if there was a place to go to get all the information that I needed that I'm just starting to find, Googling for hours and hours, and how could I save this time so that someone could get help right away? And like, and we started talking, and we said, you know, a resource hub, yes, and also a space where people could come. And we were driving down near the water in Connecticut, and we saw a big, beautiful house and property, and we said, we would love to have a place like this where any mom with her children could come for respite, for help, for guidance. Oh my gosh, and that stupid nesting thing, they can go and spend their weekends and Wednesdays exactly, really, yeah, and a place for kids for support, and um which is critical. It's and it and a lot of this really does come back to the kids, and you know, as moms, especially, yeah, we put so much outside of ourselves for our children, right? And we exhaust, you know, we all know it's a 24-hour a day job. You know, we don't get weekends off, you don't get nights off when they're sick or when they need help, and you know, people say you're only as happy as your most unhappy child. Yes, and so um this is what we do, and then we're dealing with all of this on the outside.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

So your nonprofit is building, so you're build is your yin, you it's a it's you're building a one-stop digital portal, so survivors don't have to Google in the dark anymore. And um I think that is so unbelievably brilliant, and it's so needed in today's world. And I know that you know you're in the process of building it, and during this time you've, you know, assembled court watchers, volunteers. Can you talk about those people who sit in hearings for proceedings and give us a little background on that?

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Yeah, I mean, that will be um the first program that we start when we start getting um funding and people start donating, really. Yeah. Um it it it was part of a big change in my case last year, uh, after 11 years. Um, I started having um people come in, advocates, uh, and people who are interested in the law and what was actually happening in family court, come in and what we call court watch or observe cases in family court, because uh it's different in every state, but um you are sitting in this courtroom by yourself, and yes, there are transcripts, but there are no videos, and there's nobody there taking uh uh take there, there's nobody accounting for what's being said, what's being done, um, and how it's being done. So when you have somebody coming and sitting there just being uh an observer, yeah, witness, witness taking notes, and they see things that are not right and not correct, well, then everybody, everybody is on the stand, including the judges, including the attorneys. And we in this world, uh across the country, have been seeing uh movement in this. So whether you have one person or you have ten, it's critical because you can't dispute what a wit I mean, and you can, but you can't dispute what an impartial witness states. Yes. And the notes they're taking.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Well, and that brings me, I remember when I was in college, I took a law class, and one of the the the part of the curriculum was you had to go to the local court and you had to sit in on a court case. Yes. Now, wouldn't that be brilliant if we get all these college kids going in and seeing what goes on?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

I actually had a friend who called me who knew what I was doing, who said her daughter was sitting in last year, taking uh she was a law student, and they sent her to a family court hearing in Maryland and she observed this, and I I said, this needs to be what every court and so that is a program, and and people are doing it. And so somebody came and did that in my case, and what she observed was uh was unbelievable. And she on her own went to Connecticut Judiciary and she filed her own report, unbeknownst to me. Wow, because she was just doing this on her own. That's amazing, and honestly, what I saw in my very own case this past year, uh uh it it just solidified what I knew needed to be done. And um, and and to this point, what she did um um legally should have um been adhered to and should have made movement. And 16 months later, after she sat in that courtroom, uh it still hasn't made a shift in my case.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah. Uh we could have a whole podcast. We could have a whole just on that. But but but that is the truth. And so so what Rock the Walls is going to do is is bringing what I really am wanting to do, not reinvent any wheel, to bring everything under one umbrella. The brilliant voices, all of the brilliant men and women, mostly women, but there are men and women, the children's voices, people into one space, so you don't have to Google and you don't have to go searching. So if you need um a support group in the middle of Minnesota, I want you to be able to go to Rock the Walls and find that.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

That's fantastic. Now, you you've been lobbying really hard for Jennifer's Law. Now, for those of you that live in a cave like I sometimes do, Jennifer Dulos uh was a Connecticut mom who was going through a really tough divorce, and um her ex-husband was responsible for her death. I think he was, I think he was uh, yeah, and then I think he died before maybe he maybe he was maybe he killed himself before he was convicted or after? Yeah, before. But his girlfriend, I think, got convicted. But anyway, so that it's called Jennifer's Law.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

And it is also based on another Jennifer, Jennifer Magnano, who was murdered in front of her children several years ago. So it is called Jennifer's Law with an S apostroph because it's it's it's for both of them.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Oh, that's amazing. And yes, and so they're expanding Connecticut's definition of abuse, which is really crucial. Um, can you uh tell me a little bit about the bill that you're championing and maybe about that? I think there's a new book that just came out.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yes, yes. Um, well, so so Jennifer's law was actually put into place um two or three years ago. And um, you know, on here's here's the issue. Jennifer's Law talks about coercive control, and when it first came out, people said, attorneys that I know said it has no teeth. And um the truth of the matter is there are laws already in place. For example, perjury is a class D felony. So you would think, one would think, well, if someone perjures themselves, well, they are they should have uh consequences, consequences of being uh, you know, there's a it's a per you are it's a felony. You're breaking the law, yeah. You're breaking the law. And if I could tell you that most of the most egregious situations that we all deal with is perjury. I, and I could say this very confidently, have never perjured myself, which is why it's easy for me to go and give testimony because I'm telling my truth. But when someone goes and they lie on the stand and they perjure themselves in family court, I can tell you that most of the time, on the other side of things, it is ignored. It is ignored just like these laws perjury, um, the constitution, our due process rights, there are amendments, there are statutes, and there are case law. And many of us go in fighting year after year, screaming about these laws, and they are ignored because we don't have a jury of our peers, because nobody really has to listen. And at the end of the day, family court is an administrative court, and so I circle back to these laws. We have Jennifer's law and it's about coercive control, and many of us have tried to utilize Jennifer's law in our cases, and they're dismissed. It's very simply dismissed. Um and um there is a law called Caden's Law, which all the states are trying to enact, which we're trying to bring Connecticut, and um it is um it's a law after a little girl in um who was murdered by her abusive parent in Pennsylvania. Uh and uh the judges allowed this child to go and have um uh visitation with her father. He was a documented abuser. He had been arrested many times, and and and part of the issue is that this happens way too often, and it's not covered by the media, so most people don't understand. It's just a larger um part of all the work that many of us are doing to shine a light on this.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

I know you you said there was a new book that came out, um Shining a Light on Jennifer Doulos by Rich Cohen?

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Rich Cohen, and it's called um Murder Murder in the Murder in the Doll House. And um he just wrote this book a few, it just came out a few weeks ago, and um it is a story about Jennifer Doulos, who was murdered a couple of towns over in New Canaan in Connecticut, and it got a lot of national spotlight because um she and her husband were Ivy League. You know, it was a bigger case because when you shine a light on these bigger names and cases and people who have a lot of money, the media seems to cover that. And of course, this happens every single day. But this book seems to be something um he is exposing what is happening good in Connecticut and very specifically in Stamford family court. Wow, which is um very interesting, and a lot of us will be talking about this in the next in the coming months.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Now, I know you're from Connecticut as I am, but I how are the laws different, like maybe in other states like Arizona?

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Well, you know, again, and people tend to um um really not understand this, and I didn't. Um, it's not about the laws, it's how they're being enforced and enacted. So uh what's been happening in Arizona, you actually have some good people behind the laws, judiciary, legislation, and um they understand, and people have been so forceful about what is going on in family court, they've been having hearings in the last couple of months, and people have been giving testimony. Um, men and women, protective parents, and children have been coming in and giving testimony, and it's all public, it's all on social media. Wow, and I have been watching this and completely blown away by this testimony and what they're saying very loudly about the family courts in the United States. You can't, you can't block this out, you can't turn it off, and it's happening just this past week in Idaho, and it's happening in other states. So I have been trying to um contact many different people and administrators in Connecticut in the past few weeks and letting them know wow, you know, we have an opportunity here in Connecticut to be on the right side of this, to to be one of these states, because if they heard the testimony of um a lot of the protective parents, yeah, mostly mothers, but protective parents here in our state and the children who've aged out, who want to come and give their hear their have their voices heard and give testimony, um uh they have an opportunity to do this. That's amazing. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Finally, fine. So you you are breaking down the walls, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

You know, uh alongside all of these other incredible voices, really. Um wow.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

So I'm gonna make like a situation here. If you had a magic wand, let's just say, for um your Rock the Walls foundation, and if you could, you know, uh if if if paint a picture for us, um, if a survivor clicks on it at 2 a.m., what are you hoping when when this is all done, what she will feel in that instant?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

I'm hoping um that anyone who is um you know uncertain about their relationship. I've shifted this a little in the last year that I offici uh initially launched Rock the Walls because it initially was about you know victims of abuse, but honestly, not everybody understands that they are dealing with a situation that is abusive. Right. Because people, you know, it it that's a nuanced term. And um, what I want people is to be able to come to this space when they're feeling uncomfortable about their relationship, uncertain, and so many people are today um with dating and dating apps. So I want someone to be able to come here from the beginning to navigate healthy relationships. So when they come to Rock the Walls, they can start out by saying, What is a healthy relationship? What does it look like when your partner does A, B, C, or D? Um, can I meet up with other people in my area that I can talk to? Can I find a safe space? Can I read a book that makes sense? Who do I follow online? How do I um join a group? What if somebody wants to help and also be supportive? What if you're a uh uh parent or a sibling or a friend and they want to know how to help somebody going through this? I want everyone to go to this space. And um my magic wand is I'd like to be done with my case so I can focus on this.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

And what what when you asked me how this started, uh my background is in music and entertainment. And to me, um, music has been a part of my life uh since the day I was born. Like many of us, since you know, our our mothers would sing lullabies to us, and from that to the music from our childhood, from our formative years, from when we're out, you know, living from our sad moments to our um most powerful moments, um, music is there for most of Us and for me it's played a huge role, and so it is the universal language, you know. I'm speaking today, but not everybody cares what I have to say, but they will listen to uh people who are out there who've written about abuse, who've sung about it, from Sina Turner to Christina Aguilera, and and there are a lot of voices out there that people listen to. So, what I want to do is get those people and these voices on stage, yes, and and bring them into one space so that they can tell the story that thousands and thousands of us need them to tell. Yes, and so that we can rock the walls and rock the stage and get this information out there.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Yes, because those court systems need to be rattled, they really need to be.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

And people need to understand because it is your neighbor. You know, you're walking down the street, it is happening in every neighborhood, it is happening in every town, it is happening in every state, it is happening in every country.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Wow, it is that's that's crazy, crazy. Yeah, um, do you have you heard from someone whose life changed because of your advocacy?

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Well um, uh, you know, um I can say because I've done the research right now, I could say my life is changing because of the brilliant, brilliant other women, mostly women, there are some men who are in this space who are changing lives everywhere. And I I feel really blessed to be part of this circle now. And um and just in Connecticut, what I'm trying to do right now is bring um a lot of these moms who are suffering and struggling so much more than I am right now into one space, and we're actively doing that so that they are not alone.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

If if Connecticut became the gold standard, um what would be like the blueprint for taking this movement national? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 46:11

You know, um really the family court needs to be uh dismantled and restructured so that when you get to a certain place in a divorce process, uh it is set it is taken to just a completely other space where there's a jury of your peers, where there's a different system, and that all the states are aligned. You've got the the um training that is critical, the knowledge of what coercive control and what abuse and what manipulation looked like, and everybody follows the same gold standard, as you said.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Oh my god, wouldn't that be amazing? Now, I've heard that there might be a film about the situation going on. Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, you know, again, with all of these people in our circles, yeah. Um I I um um uh connected with an old friend from high school who uh a few years ago who I discovered was dealing with the same situation that I was.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

And she's just a brilliant, incredible uh woman who's an inspiration in me because she's been going through this, and we started talking um two or three years ago, and she introduced me to a friend of hers who is a um award-winning producer in LA. Wow, and we all started to connect, and uh as she heard our stories and what was happening uh a couple of years ago, she said, we've gotta do a film. She's a documentary filmmaker. Wow. And and what has come together in the last year is uh uh we are in pre-production for a film called House of Mirrors.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

And and and the idea is that when you walk into a court and you think you're walking into a place where there's you know law and there's justice, and you what you're walking into is a house of mirrors where you're bumping into walls and nothing looks or seems as it is. And uh we have brought some of the top voices in um this world of domestic abuse and um coercive control uh into this space as our partners. So um we are in pre-production, we are we are presently taking funding and donations, and the minute we get you know $25,000 to $50,000, our team is gonna be here filming in Connecticut.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

That's amazing. It's really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

And I have to give a special note to our um, well, our producer is Marisa Paulvino, who's incredible and done brilliant uh films, and our director is Kai Dickens, who um anybody who has children with autism and special needs knows her name because she has um done an incredible podcast, which has bumped Joe Rogan out of the top spot in recent months. That's how incredible she is as a director and filmmaker, and she's doing a film with that now. So she is our director. Wow, and um this is happening, and it's you know, it's bringing all of these voices into one space again. Yes, that is, you know, that's facilitating all of this.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

I I think that's amazing. Now, I know you have the the foundation, but I I know you're working towards an app. So talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Yeah, well, again, um uh because of my work and um growing up in Connecticut, um, when I launched last year, I reached a lot of people. And um again, somebody I knew from high school reached out uh and called me and said that um saw what I was doing and that he had had a prototype for an app in this arena and it's called Safety Net. And it's built out, and we got on a Zoom and he showed me um um he he gave me a uh we did a walkthrough of the app and I was in tears because he had built this because of a situation and a murder that had taken place in Connecticut. Um, and essentially it will change the face of what um um victims of abuse, what it will look like with an app, because they will be able to upload um information and photos and text messages and information so that it's a pattern uh of abuse that will have safe place with other people and other spaces, let's just say. And um, and the most important part about this app is that it will have real-time data that goes out to police stations or FBI or other entities, which we don't have now. And the most uh incredible moment we had with this is um, and again, we need funding to get this off the ground. Right, right. But um, I was watching the trailer for the Gabby Petito story on Netflix about three months ago. And I was watching the the trailer before it came out, and her mother was on saying, um, we couldn't find, I didn't know where my daughter was. I couldn't find her. And um, you know, if only I'd know where she was, and I I I sat there after watching this and I called Matt and I who who um developed this, and I I was in tears. I said, Oh my god, could you imagine if Gabby Petito had this app, yeah, her mother would have been able to find her. There would have been records about what had transpired, and it and this is part of my shift about the term domestic abuse, right, because um I said this app needs to go out to every young person who's dating. Right. And every dating app, because if you have a gut feeling, if you're going out with someone, we've heard of someone going on a date and they get raped or something happens. If you are linked to this app, Safety Net, all of your information is in there, and you can see a pattern or you know, he pulled my arm and it didn't feel comfortable. He wrote me this terrible message. It's all in there.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Or if you're just going on a date and you just it's a blind date and you say, you know what, guys, I'm going on this blind date. I don't know what to expect. Right because you could get roofied. You don't know. I mean, I watched that what would you do show and all the time, you know. I mean, I know it's actors, but still I'm like riveted by it.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Every day. So all of this is really it is bringing all of this into one space that brings all of these people, right? Mostly women and children, into one space. And that is the most important thing. Because I've said we're fragmented.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

And when you're dealing with this on your own and you don't know what's happening, you are alone. And no one, no one should feel alone in this space.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

No, they can't. Oh my god. I'm gonna change the the tone a little bit and we're gonna have a little fun. Okay. So let's uh brighten up this and let's ask what is your favorite, a sunrise or a sunset?

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Sunset, because I'm a night owl.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

So that's when your day starts. Yes. I don't see sunrise very often.

unknown 53:22

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Um, what song snaps you back to strength every time?

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Oh, it's my song I blast on my car radio with my windows down when I'm headed to court. Titanium.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Oh, that's a great song. I love it. It gets the fire flowing. Yes. All right. What about a favorite wall art quote, like hanging in your office? Do you have a favorite quote?

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Oh boy. Um, you know, it's probably roomy. Yeah. Um, you know, um, there are several different um takes on it, but um, you know, when you're in the dark, look for the light, look for the crack because that's where the light comes in.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Oh, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

And I feel that very often. You always look for the light. You always have to have hope.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

If you could borrow a superhero power for one day, uh, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Well, immediately go to Wonder Woman.

unknown 54:19

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Um the truth rope. The truth rope. Oh my god. It would be. No, I actually remember that Wonder Woman could make everybody freeze in time.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Yeah, so you could freeze everybody in time except one person that you're talking to, so you could orchestrate the next thing that happens in the room.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

That's gonna be that's it. And the last thing that made you laugh till your sides hurt, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Oh, you know, I'd have to say probably my best friends in the whole world. Um, they're my three sisters, really, um, since um high school. And when we get together, which we did a couple of weeks ago, there is nothing that stops the laughter. It takes me back to that time. It's the safest space in the world, and and there's nothing that stops us from laughing for several minutes, if not longer. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

So for our listeners who are still trapped, yes, hearing your voice through hidden earbuds, what's step one toward freedom?

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Wow. Um, you know, it's it's like I've said, you know, knowledge is power. So step one is reaching out and connecting with anybody, a support group, an advocate. I know it's hard to find everyone to Rock the Walls is up and running, but we are out there. And so if somebody's listening to this, you can find us online. All of the partners and the people that I'm connected with, um, from Dr. Christine Cociola and Amy Polacco and Dr. Nadine, um, these are brilliant people, and their communities on their posts and on their websites and pages are incredibly powerful and helpful. And that in each state and each that there are people coming together, and you have to have support and community.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

How can our audience amplify your mission today? Like, is there a phone call, a donation, a social share? What what moves can they can they help?

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Yep, definitely a donation, and very specifically, um, we're just finishing setting this up right now, but it's on my website for our film, for our app, for Rock the Walls, because we're gonna be building out our court watching and um our other connecting programs in the coming couple of months. But the film is ready to take donations and our safety net app is ready and um and connecting and sharing. What is your website? Tell tell our rockthewalls.org.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Oh my gosh. Now finish this sentence.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Survival is not the end of my story, it's it's the beginning of a new chapter of my life and my children, and uh, I do believe that God brought me here for some reason to be able to um help others with all those out there who are already doing this great work.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Oh my god, I got chills.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

I really there is no other reason, and so for people going through any type of trauma, there has to be a um, you have to just look at it. Um there is a reason for it.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

I know, and I I say it all the time, you know, some of us have our scars on the outside, some of us wear our scars on the inside. We all, you know, that's why we do this, that's why I have this platform. So we can talk and and let people know they're not alone. I mean, as you know, I lost my son to suicide four years ago, and I try and close every show with one of his poems. And um, this week I've got one that uh was one of the first poems he wrote when uh it was like Mother's Day, and I had been seeing little glimpses of his poems, and he put together this little booklet of all his poems, he stapled it, and he put in the cover of it, he goes, My eight reasons why. This poem is dedicated to my mom, who is the best mom in the world by Scott Dansker. You are my world, you are my life, you are my reason why, you are my love, you are my pride, you are the reason why. You are my thoughts, you are my lies, you are the reason why. You are my queen, you are my lives, you are the reason why, you are my reasons why, and nothing will change my reasons why. He was 15 when he wrote this stuff, and I still cry today when I read them. I tell you, it's just crazy. But wow, oh my gosh, okay. Well, Lisa Penny Kush reminds us that one brave voice can echo uh through the legislative courts. Um, and she is so brave and so strong. Um, please help her support the cause that so many women find themselves going through. I mean, men as well, but um it's it's so important that we shed a light on this, just like we're shedding a light on mental health. This this is really so important.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

Thank you, Serena.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Oh my god, thank you for joining us today. And you know, until next Sunday, keep spreading the light, keep shining the love. And if you enjoyed today's show, please like us, share us. If you want to support me and donate, that is always welcome as well. And remember, SOS Stories of Survivors is where survival sparks the soul. Thank you so much. Thank you.