The Spirit Collective

Life Is One Giant Practical Joke: John Lloyd on Humor, Faith & Living with Wonder

• Ariane de Bonvoisin • Season 1 • Episode 4

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What if the secret to a meaningful life has nothing to do with religion, a guru, or a self-help book — and everything to do with simply paying attention?

John Lloyd, the legendary British producer behind Mr. Bean, Blackadder, QI and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, has spent decades exploring consciousness, synchronicity, Ignosticism and what he calls the miracle of simply being alive.

He is also, in his own words, a professor of ignorance — and one of the wisest people you will ever hear speak.

What We Cover:

  • Growing up in the Church of England and losing faith the moment he was confirmed
  • The miracle of consciousness and the question his newborn son sparked in him
  • Three years crying under his desk and the long road back through Marcus Aurelius and Sufi mystics
  • Life as a video game and why every so often you hear a voice saying "Welcome to level nine"
  • Synchronicity, paying attention, and why your world gets bigger when you notice more
  • Ignosticism: the philosophical stance that theological debate is meaningless until the word "God" is coherently defined
  • The five commandments of his personal religion in waiting
  • Why it should not be the pursuit of happiness but the pursuit of meaning
  • Judge not, and why you never have enough information to judge anyone
  • How to raise children with curiosity, wonder, and respect instead of dogma
  • The connection between comedy, consciousness, and the sacred

About John Lloyd: John Lloyd is one of Britain's most celebrated producers, whose credits include Blackadder, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, Spitting Image, Not the Nine O'Clock News, Mr. Bean, and QI — now in its 24th season. One of his most legendary contributions to British culture, The News Quiz on BBC Radio, is set to celebrate its 50th anniversary in 2027. He is a multiple BAFTA winner with one of the most celebrated bodies of work in British television history. John has spent decades quietly exploring the deeper questions of existence through books, walks, and what he calls "insight rushes." 

Connect With John Lloyd:
Website: www.qi.com 
Instagram: @johnlloydqi 

Also check out John's son Harry's band, Waiting for Smith — a musician on a mission to spread joy. Find him on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/57oieIojgviKMyTtzG4kn2?si=CZzLd_VdTduxvz_AWQtfGQ

About Ariane de Bonvoisin: Ariane de Bonvoisin is the founder of The Spirit Collective, a podcast at the intersection of success and spirituality. A former media and venture capital executive, she left the corporate world to integrate her own external success and inner path — and now interviews remarkable people from business, finance, sport, music, and beyond about a side of their lives they rarely discuss: their spiritual path. Honest conversations about spirituality, purpose, and personal growth, with people you wouldn't expect. New episodes weekly.

Connect with The Spirit Collective:
Website: spiritcollective.com 
YouTube: @ariane-de-bonvoisin 
Instagram: @arianedebonvoisin 
LinkedIn: / arianed1 
X: @clickariane 
TikTok: @arianedebonvoisin

If this episode moved you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe for weekly conversations at the intersection of success and spirit.

#johnlloyd #mrbean #blackadder #QI #ignostic #consciousness #mindfulness #agnostic #spiritualawakening #synchronicity #tvproducer #tvwriter #spiritcollectivepodcast #itstimeforadifferentconversation

 

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Introduction and highlights

SPEAKER_00

I think all the religions in face are really a kind of metaphors. I don't know whether they're actually true. It's a way of looking at the world that helps you live optimally. If you want to really know something, the first thing is to understand you don't know anything at all. It doesn't really matter where you go to live or what job you do. That's not the point. It's about personal development. It's about trying to become the best person you can become. Paying attention is one of the top things you need to do in life to be content and lead a meaningful life. One, no fear. Two, be kind. Three, don't worry about what the others are doing. Four, do what you know to be right. And five, cheer up for Christ's sake.

SPEAKER_01

Hi, this is Ariaman, and welcome to another episode of the Spirit Collective, where I talk to remarkable people about a side of their lives they rarely talk about, their spiritual path. It's time for a different conversation. John Lloyd is a legend in his own right. He's produced some of the most iconic British comedy of the last 50 years. Not the 9 o'clock news, Black Adder, Spitting Image, QI, the radio incarnation of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and some of the most famous commercials as well. He's the man behind so many of the laugh-out loud moments that have shaped a generation. But John will tell you it was probably never really about comedy. In 1990, he won a lifetime achievement BAFTA. And three years later, on Christmas Eve, what he describes as a safety curtain came down. He says he spent three years crying under his desk. He came back the long way through walks and through books. Marcus Aurelius, Nissa Gadata, and Sufi Mystics. And in 1999, he had an epiphany that the new show he was about to make didn't just quite stand for it quite interesting. QI is also the Chinese word for life force. John and I met at Ted in Vancouver this year. We had a conversation by the Koachek about consciousness that I've been thinking about ever since. Today we're going to go where most people don't go to, probably with John, into his religion in waiting, as he calls, of which he happens to be the only member. John, welcome to the Spirit Collective.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Ariane. Lovely to

Welcome — John Lloyd joins The Spirit Collective

SPEAKER_00

be here.

SPEAKER_01

So, John, take me back to your growing up years. Did you grow up in a family that believed in something? Religion, spirituality, consciousness? Were they what did they instill upon you a sort of view of life, the world, the universe? What was that for you in in sort of when you were younger?

SPEAKER_00

Um well, no. The answer, short answer, is no. Um,

Growing up in the Church of England — a religion of tea and cakes

SPEAKER_00

the nearest I get to that is my mother as a young woman in London. She was a secretary. Her father was quite a Victorian patafamilius and didn't think she should go to university, so she became a secretary. And she went to look for the meaning of life, and she went to uh a temple or a mosque or uh every denomination she could find, synagogue, you know, Catholic Church, to see whether uh any of them had a better answer than she'd been brought up to believe. And I don't think she ever found her listening. When she we were uh brought up to go to church, like good little British kids, three of us, we went to church every Sunday, religiously, as you might say. Um, and uh on my 21st birthday, I happened to go out to dinner with my parents, and it was a sort of way station. I said, So do either of you believe in God and so on? And my father said, uh no, John, um no, he was a naval officer. He said, No, no, John, of course not. Devil dodgers, I call them. Um, because the men like it, the men like it. It's comforting for them. And my mother said, Well, no, darling, I sort of believe there's something bigger than us, but I don't know what it is. So when I see the Nicene Creed in church, you know, I believe in God, and that one she goes, I believe in God, hem hemhem ruba, ruba, brubab, amen. That was all she would admit to. And so I say, Well, what was the thing about going to church every Sunday? And that was just what you did. It wasn't really particularly from a belief. You know, I have a friend, I have a friend who always makes the joke, you know, when you've got a form which says, Which religion are you? And it says, If Church of England tick none. Because it's sort of it's a tea and it's a sort of tea and cakes religion, you know, it's a glass of sherry with the vicar and then you know, off to lunch.

SPEAKER_01

And John, what did it become for you? So you heard your mother say that. There's, I believe there might be something bigger going on. How how did you start walking a bit more of a conscious path, spiritual path, looking for meaning path? And uh I mean, and what did you find along the way?

SPEAKER_00

Well, just going back to I was at a British public school, or as you as you would call it a private school, and it was very high Church of England in the grounds of uh the precincts of Canterbury Cathedral.

Confirmed by the Archbishop of Canterbury and losing faith that moment

SPEAKER_00

And I was confirmed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Um, and at that moment I kind of lost any belief I might have had because I saw the the head the headmaster was a cleric, you know. The the connection between supposedly loving Christianity and being beaten was awfully close. And uh so I saw the church as a more of an authority figure, really, rather than something to to uh provide solace. Although I love the cathedral. I'm actually making a giving a talk to the English Cathedrals Association in a week or so about my love of cathedrals, which is considerable. Yeah, but so um I think one of the things that started me thinking before I had my crisis was when my son Harry was born. And I

The miracle of consciousness — the question his newborn son Harry sparked

SPEAKER_00

took him home, little tiny baby, said, uh, well, Harry, this is what we call the ceiling, yeah, and this is what we call a pot plant, do you see? And I had this peculiar sense. First of all, I couldn't understand where his consciousness come from. I got the sort of meat aspect, you know, we grow hair and fingernails and so on, and it's it's just a big step to a whole baby. But I couldn't understand the little look in his eye. Where did that come from? That really mystified me. And I had this strange sense that the little mind in there was going, Oh, I hope these people are gonna be all right. Where have I landed this time? He seems, she seems very angry and he seems clinically deranged, showing me the pot plants and things. So I think that was that was when a little light bulb went on. I the miracle of life, and particularly the miracle of consciousness, which really set something ticking in my head. And it was only three years later that I was in desperate states and and in trouble.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, we'll go there in a second. I want to sort of go, okay, so you have this moment with Harry. Um, I know I was reading a little bit about you. I know you you studied law at Cambridge and ended up doing something very different.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Talk to me a little bit about did you feel that life was guiding you? Did you feel that there were some signs? Did you believe in coincidences? Did you believe in a script? Or was it an

Life as guided journey or happy accident?

SPEAKER_01

accident? Or like how how did you find yourself to go from law to, you know, being one of the most famous comedians that we know? I mean, how how does that happen? In the context of your relationship to life itself, or did you feel you made that decision?

SPEAKER_00

No, I've made, I think, only five decisions in my whole life. The rest of it's been completely buffeted, you know, from one end of the billiard table to the other. You know, my view of free will, which is a very difficult philosophical problem, is that we're in a sort of matrix kind of Chinese puzzle that things are going to happen to us. And actually, it doesn't really matter where you go to live or what job you do. That's not the point. It's about personal development, it's about trying to become the best person you can become. That's what I think we're here for after years and years, decades of thinking about it. I can't think of a better explanation. We're in a kind of exam that we don't realize we've we signed up to take. I was explaining to somebody who has recently been bereaved very tragically, and saying that she's an atheist, and she's of course, atheists are absolutely in desperate trouble when somebody they love dies because they've got nowhere to go. It just confirms their idea that it's a meaningless, pointless accident that we've all found ourselves in. And I was saying that's not the way I think. It's I think it's if you think uh watch some raindrops, you know, dribbling down a window, and one of them scale, I'm winning, I'm winning, look at me, look at me, I've got to the bottom. I'm amazing, look at me, I'm the best raindrop in the whole window. That's what we are, really. And actually, when you go to the other side, you're just a raindrop that becomes part of the sea again. That's that's my analogy, if you like. So I was saying to her, there's actually nothing to worry about. You and obviously being a comedy guy, I think I prefer to think, because I think all religions and faiths really are kind of metaphors, really. They I don't know whether they're actually true. It's a way of looking at the world that helps you live optimally, uh, more peaceably, uh, without uh too much fear and so forth. So my idea is you go to the other side and you go, oh, brilliant! What a gag! It's so neat. It's so neat. Why didn't I see it? It's just so obvious. Once you've once you've got and you look back and you're not allowed to tell anybody, you're not allowed to go, hey, whoa, it's it's fine. So I don't uh, although that may sound very strange, I don't, for example, believe in things like mediums and ghosts and and all that kind of stuff, but I do love the idea that it's kind of upside down. It's we think this is life, and they think it's the other way around. You know, we're we're the people in in a sort of suffering position and they're all fine up there.

SPEAKER_01

Um I like your your, you know, we're here to take an exam or a test. What do you feel we are being tested on? Like what do we need to graduate from?

Three years crying under his desk — and the long road back

SPEAKER_01

How how and and in the context of we're here for our own personal development, it's obviously different for all of us. What what have been your graduating moments? What do you feel have been your your tests?

SPEAKER_00

Well, as I say, I had this dreadful crisis. I was very unfairly sacked from a couple of things that I'd been working on and was very hurt and uh resentful and um just basically furious. Um and it took me a while to work out that I needed to do something about this rather than just wallow in my own self-pity. And I had won an improbable amount of awards in the previous 15 years. I mean, silly band. More BAFTAs than anyone else in the world except Dame Judy Dench, would you believe? You know, it's it's crazy. It's amazing. And I'm you know, I cared. I cared. I collected them, I put them on my wall, my office wall at home, didn't have any pictures on it, it just had awards, covering every single wall.

SPEAKER_01

So it's important to you.

SPEAKER_00

It was, and and I looked at these awards in my misery and I thought, is this who I am? These 40 pieces of cardboard behind glass, is that what I am amount to? Is that what I've struggled so hard for all these years? It it seems futile. And I say the safety curtain came down. I didn't win another award for probably 10 years, not a single one. And it eventually I was lucky because I was really now looking for things. I thought I have to find out what the problem is. I'm clearly the problem. What's gone wrong here with this program, as it were? I treated myself like a program which wasn't quite working and needed to be fixed. And I thought, this is odd because all those years I was winning awards. Quite often I won awards that I didn't deserve. And now I'm not winning awards that I do deserve. So that's all. It's like the tumbler's gone over and everything's gone upside down. And I thought in the life learning lesson, I thought I have I used to have these strange insight rushes, I called them. They would just something would click and I go, Oh, there's a thing, there's an idea. And this one was that um we are in

Life as a video game — welcome to level nine

SPEAKER_00

a, if you like that exam, it's like a video game, you know, that and it is very similar to that. You're at school, you want to get to college, you know, you pass an exam, you think it's all going to be fine. No, no, and now you've got to get a degree. That's even harder. You've got the degree, now you want to do a master's. That's incredibly difficult. It you know, there is no solution to anything in life. It just goes up a level. And so every so often in life, you, as it were, hear a voice and you're going, Welcome to level nine. And I thought, okay, so I got a I got up one level because the first 15 years of my working life, I learned that diligence and hard work and not giving up and those kind of things were important, and they will get you a certain way. They'll win you prizes. No, no question. Persistence is much more important than talent. You know, not giving up is more important than being intelligent. Unquestionably, I think anybody serious will tell you that. And I thought now the teaching machine is telling me I need to learn some new lessons: patience, kindness, humility. Obviously, when you've got children, things like not giving up, yes, you have to have a bit of that. But mainly you need to learn patience and seeing the other person's point of view. You know, because when a child wants to bounce up, bounce on the bed and you don't want them to, or they want you want them to go to bed and they don't want to, it's no good shouting at them. Because it being a teaching machine, if you shout at children, they will not do what you say, they'll just become good at shouting. That's all, because children learn by example. So that's what I thought. Okay, I now need to learn these things. Humility and uh um, as I say, seeing the other person's point of view, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01

Have you ever thought of writing a book, John?

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Are you writing a book?

SPEAKER_00

No, and I've been sitting on a four-part science fiction saga for 34 and a half years. I want to write a book, bizarrely, based on my uh previous TED talk. Uh, which is about how all the important things in life are invisible.

Synchronicity, paying attention, and why your world gets bigger

SPEAKER_00

You mentioned synchronicity, for example, which I'm a strong advocate for it being meaningful. Consciousness is invisible, um, radio waves, other people's feelings, uh, your past before you're three. There are all these things. And uh a young publisher happened to see this talk, and she said, You have to write a book about this, John. I'm gonna I'm gonna go on and on at you until you write the book. And I said, But you know, Harry, it's it was only a nine-minute talk. She said, John, most books don't have nine minutes worth of ideas in. And from that moment, I became her best friend.

SPEAKER_01

And so I'm yeah, she didn't talk to me or call me, but I feel like it's it's in the space for you. It's one of what I call your insight rushes. I like those things, but there's a moment of insight where when when people keep asking you the same thing, it's just paying attention to what's right in front of you. But we are, you know, I'm I'm here to help and support you. And if I'm meant to be kind of one of the cheerleaders on your path, I believe that life puts those in our way too.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's another thing, of course. One of the key things is paying attention. That's very zen, and you know. So you are going back to what my faith is. I mean, it's what conventional believers who adhere to one r religion or one sect of one religion most usually would call a pick and mix religion. You know, oh you just which is exactly I have bits of everything. I mean, Zen, classical Buddhism, Shinto, um, you know, the Bhagavad Gita, I've read quite a lot of the Quran, you know, all these great religions have extraordinary insights. Underneath all the palavra, what you're supposed to wear, and you know what the rules are. The basic tenets are actually quite similar, but the way of expressing them, the the words, the the the uh metaphorical ideas that you can live by are extraordinarily useful. For example, in Islam, I mean, I think most Muslims would know this, but most non-Muslims don't. You know, we talk about jihad, you know, the the holy war, and most people think that means basically terrorism, you know, various kinds of warfare and domestic strife and murder and so forth. But there are two kinds of jihad, the lesser jihad, which is defending your family against, you know, incomers and righteous war against bad people and so forth. That's the lesser jihad. And the greater jihad is the struggle against the self. And I think that is such a marvelous, marvelous thing. That's the core problem you have to overcome. There's a great saying in uh in Sufism. Let me think who it's by. Uh I can't remember, I can't attribute it, but it's a uh wonderful Sufi sage. Can you walk on water? You have done no better than a straw. Can you fly through the air? You have done no better than a blue bottle. Conquer yourself, and then you may become someone. I mean, if you just studied that for the rest of your life, that would be a very useful thing to do.

SPEAKER_01

So, John, at this stage of your life, which part are you holding, being with, conquering? I don't want to use the word battle because those don't necessarily that word doesn't necessarily help, but I can see that you've done a lot of this deep, you know, aligning with yourself. Um take us to where you are today.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I haven't got very good at it, Ariane. I've got very good at talking about it.

SPEAKER_01

Is that true? We don't really know that, John. Compared to who or compared to what?

SPEAKER_00

I think that is true because I don't know if I'm giving away all the things in my book. Perhaps that doesn't matter. But I mean, one of the core ideas that my whole family uses there are two of us in here. Okay, there's the what we call the monkey in the head, the little yakky person who goes, Oh no, well oh God, why ever does oh I've got to do I'm so what am I worried about? You know, it's it's the thing that allows you not to live in the present at all. You're either living in the future with your absurd fantasies and your fears, or you're living in the past with your resentments, your uh your self-loathing and all that kind of thing. And then there's the true self, and that is connected to everything. It's like when they say you're in the zone. I was talking at this legal thing last night to a portrait painter who I'd never met before, and we started talking about this. What a weird thing, you know, a comedy guy and a portrait painter at a legal legal dinner, everybody in white tie and medals suddenly talking about being in the zone. And he's sort of when he paints, he's not there. He is in this place where it's being done through him. The brush is still going, he's perfectly conscious, but he's not thinking, it's just doing. And my son Harry, who's a songwriter, has exactly the same thing. He says, Dad, I don't really write the songs, they sort of come through my up the top of my head and out through my fingers and mouth. And that's well attested with musicians from Noel Gallagher and Mozart of are often quoted as saying exactly that.

SPEAKER_01

I want to take us back to just a quick, quick conversation around synchronicity. How does it happen? Why does it happen? Is it always happening and we're not paying attention? Is there some sort of is it physics? Is it karma? What why why are you and I talking? Why did you and I and thousands of people at TED meet at the coat check? Uh clearly a synchronistic moment. Can you can you make it active? Is it gonna happen despite us?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I keep a list of it, you know, I keep us a daily, not a diary, but

Why synchronicity proves the universe is paying attention to you

SPEAKER_00

interesting things that happen to me. And I've got One of the categories is synchronicity vortex, which my son and I really believe strongly in. At the very least, getting a lot of synchronicity shows that you are paying attention. At the very least. And paying attention is one of the top things you need to do in life to be content and lead a meaningful life. Because the more you pay attention, the more interesting everything becomes. The more you pay attention, the less you're thinking about yourself. Everything that leads you to stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about other people andor things, the better you will be for it. So that's very good. And the point is, like you and me talking, when you something happens, you're brought together by accident, if you're paying attention, you meet another person's paying attention, you learn an enormous amount. And your world becomes bigger and your life becomes better because you've, first of all, you've got human warmth, you've learned something interesting, which is always very good for you. And your days were the better for it. You know, I spend, if I'm ever in a taxi, I always talk to the cab driver. And I mean, yesterday, going to this legal dinner thing, the guy, he was a he was a Muslim of Pakistani heritage, although born and brought up in England. You wouldn't know on the phone he wasn't British. This guy got out of his Uber. I said, What is he getting out of the Uber for? Came round to my door, opened the door, and insisted on shaking my hand and saying, Thank you. That was absolutely wonderful. It was so lovely for me too, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it sounds like you you paid attention to him and you recognized him and you met him.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I learned I learned a lot about him, about him. Why are you driving an Uber? I'm sure you did. Did you something he said, yeah, I was in uh IT tech in the city, and um, but he said, I've got five children now, and I love my children, and I wanted to do a job where I had time for them, you know, the money can come later. It was just so moving, you know. He was a properly decent guy.

SPEAKER_01

John, talk to me about the difference between what you said earlier, which is that I think you described yourself as a production problem or a project or something, right? Um so for someone hearing that for the first time, how do they start working on themselves for whatever it is that that means versus not getting into the thinking about yourself too much? Do you see there's a natural tension there between the two? So for someone who's like, I I like this guy, I like what he's saying. Do I pick up a book?

Depression, doing something for others, and practical tips for getting through

SPEAKER_01

Do I go cry under a table? Do I start paying attention and talking to other people? Just help help people out because you've been there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I've been, yes, I I was very depressed for a number of years, but now I look at it. I know since I've met people who are clinically depressed, I've never been there. I've never seriously considered taking my own life. I've never not been able to get out of bed at all. I've just felt miserable and a bit self-pitying. And but I can say certain things definitely help. Go for a walk of at least two and a half hours. I guarantee you will feel better for it. Help somebody else. You know, go get out of the house, get out from under the doovi, get out, talk to other people. Anybody who's ever been depressed knows that you feel better already. Do something for someone else. Stop thinking about yourself so much. Do something practical, you know, volunteer, you know, just anything. Call somebody up that you like and say, I'm sorry, I haven't called for ages. All these things are helpful. My friend Bill was a child psychiatrist in Tennessee. He was a Vietnam vet and killed a lot of people. And after the war, he'd volunteer. You know, he actually wanted to fight. He was a very angry young man. And when he came out of the war, the army said, Well, you've got a pension for life. You're an absolute national hero. And he said, No, I want to keep on, I want to put something back. Uh and they sent him to medical school and he trained as a doctor and then became a psychiatrist and a child psychiatrist. His cure for depression was to make people stay up all night. And if that didn't work, he made them stay up for two nights. And he said it never failed. It's a slightly weird thing to do. I mean, there are practical things because most depression, I'm not minimizing the problem of people who are clinically depressed, that's a different order of thing. But most people who would consider themselves depressed and go to the doctor and get drugs for it are actually suffering from a psych a psychological or a philosophical problem rather than the a physical or physiological one. And because, you know, you look at life, it's shit, you know, a lot, it's awful. Things, awful things happen all the time. But also brilliant things happen, wonderful things happen. Life is a paradox. And if possible, you need to turn your worldview upside down and look on the bright side, you know, be grateful for what you have rather than moaning about what you don't have. These are things extremely difficult to do. Extremely difficult. And um, I'm not, you know, because I've been trying to do it for 30 odd years, and and it's I'm not saying it's easy, but it is what it is ultimately what matters. Most people, if they're uh any good at all, are trying to fix everybody else's problems. You know, they're and also they're blaming other people for their problems. That's not the way to do it, because it it's not gonna have any effect except make you more angry. Fix yourself and everything will start to fix itself around you. You're more powerful than you think.

SPEAKER_01

What what doesn't help with fixing yourself? Let's just let's just compress a few years and months for people. What what what what were dead ends? What was like that didn't work, that didn't work, that was wrong, that took way too much time. Because if we if we want to be of service and we want to sort of, you know, raise people's awareness. I know there's a lot of people who are like, just just tell me what to do, John. Just tell me what to do, but also tell me what not to do. So I've heard some of the what to do's. What what would you say don't do this or don't get lost in this? I heard blame.

SPEAKER_00

This uh program QI that I've been doing for nearly a quarter of a century now, which is about how everything in the universe is interesting, without exception,

Judge not — why you never have enough information to judge anyone

SPEAKER_00

if looked at closely enough for long enough, or from the right angle. So there's close attention. That's what I do for a living now. I pay attention for a living. And one of the things that you'll see in many religions, but the one that I can remember because I was brought up in that faith of Christianity, is judge not lest ye also be judged, you know, which is I don't judge other people because you'll get the judgment yourself. And that sounds like a sort of rather angry father telling you, you know, you know, stop sucking your thumb. Don't do that. But actually, it's a very good piece of advice. Why shouldn't you judge other people? Why shouldn't you scream, you know, give the finger to a guy who cuts you up on the freeway? Why why should you be patient with the angry woman in the queue at the supermarket behind you who's jostling? Why should why shouldn't you judge them? Why shouldn't you judge the person who is clinically obese? Because you don't have all the information as why. You don't know why they did that. You don't know whether the man driving at 90 down the freeway is got a sick, a pregnant wife in the back. You don't know if the woman jostling in the queue is, you know, mentally ill or whether she's just become bereaved and she's desperate. You don't know. Somebody, some wise character said, you know, to know all is to forgive all. If we could if we could hear what each other were thinking, we would be so appalled that we'd ever judged anyone when we think the trouble that most people are in most days, you all you can do is feel compassion for them, really.

SPEAKER_01

Do you believe in karma? What happens to you? Comes back and teaches? Do you believe in that concept, that word?

SPEAKER_00

Whereas the Buddhist thing that we go round and round and there's a price for everything. Well, I know that to be true in my life. I mean, absolutely, you know, you pay for everything one way or another. But it just seems to make so much sense because everything we know about the universe that we can observe is cyclical. You know, night follows day, you know, spring follows winter, the trees grow up and they become compost and then grow seeds and the planets go round, the stars and so forth. The idea that humanity is in a sort of cyclical pattern seems good to me. And it also, I remember when I first discovered Buddhism in the middle of my crisis, I literally didn't know anything about it. I thought it was the Hare Krishna a lot, you know, the guy chanting in the street. Because one of the things I couldn't understand, what had happened to me, why I'd have been so badly treated, why I was unhappy, I thought I behave well. I'm a good I'm one of the good guys, you

Opening the manhole cover into the soul

SPEAKER_00

know, I don't steal, you know, I don't hit people. You know, I'm a I'm a decent person. And do you know the weirdest thing happened, Ariane? As I was thinking that, it was late at night with the whiskey bottle open, and the first thing that happened, my chair snapped in half and threw me to the ground. It was a metal, you know, one of those with a metal stalk, a swivel chair, you know, strong, solid metal, snapped in half and threw me to the ground, as if somebody said, How dare you, how dare you speak like that, you awful person. And I had this vision in my mind. I opened the manhole cover into my basement, you know, into my soul, as it were, and I slammed it shut because it was full of creepy crawlies, rats, diseases, full of peer fear and resentment and hatred and cowardice. I thought, oh, that's who I am. That's who I really am. All the rest, I'm just pretending, you know, that I'm a cheery old comedy producer, you know. That's what that's the mess that I am underneath. It's as it were, I went into I I opened the door to the garage that I hadn't been in for 50 years, and it was just crawling with, you know, cockroaches and spiders' webs and you know, I want to talk about love.

SPEAKER_01

How do you find the place to love all of that, whether it's in yourself and others? Like how how does, you know, I think this podcast talks a lot about, you know, people's spiritual journeys and how remarkable and how remarkably different in some ways they are. Um but we also are all pointing to love in some capacity. So the the thought of working through all of that and getting rid of all the clutter feels exhausting to people.

SPEAKER_00

I know, but that's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01

What did you do? So tell me, what do you do with that?

SPEAKER_00

That's the job. I mean, it's you know, the Dalai Lama has this thing called stupid compassion, you know, which is of course compassion for all living beings, but not about that. No, no, I'm not gonna be compassionate about that. That's just stupid, what you're doing there. You know, the reason you're unhappy is you drink far too much, and you know, you're off the scale. Stop drinking. I don't need to be compassionate when I I am being compassionate, when I say the best thing you can possibly do is stop drinking. But there's no good, oh, we just got to love everything. That's not right. The garage question is get in there and tidy it up. It's your job. That's your job. Look how disgusting you are. Don't, you know, go go and have a shaha, for heaven's sake, wash your hands.

SPEAKER_01

I wanna I wanna bring bring up this word that I saw that you described yourself as an ignostic. I've never I've never heard the word before. Is that a made-up word? Is it your word? And tell me tell me a little bit about what that means.

SPEAKER_00

It's uh it's not my word, actually. Um I think there's a Wikipedia page on it. But I like this because an ignostic is someone who refuses to discuss the existence of God or whether God exists or not, until the terms are defined. Okay? So you describe the kind of God you don't believe in, and we can take it from there. So for example, do you believe that God sits in an enormous chair in the sky? No, nor do I. Do you believe he wears a robe and has a glint in his eye? No. Do you think he has enormous forearms and sort of points to which thunderbolts come out of his fingers? No, no, nor do I. So now we're starting to clear out the garrosh a bit and we're getting a bit of clarity about what do you think the word God could possibly mean? What kind of entity? Let's let's look at something very ordinary, like a garden with about 700 species of plant, probably several thousand species of microbe under the ground. Um, let's look at how these things grow, how all the different shapes of the leaves. That's a pretty fine piece of work, that, isn't it? What kind of entity do you think, how intelligent do you think you'd have to be to have individually designed? I'm not saying this god we don't believe in exists or not, but just assume. What kind of, what kind of IQ would this entity need to have designed all these different leaves and flowers and all the colours and all the the way the grass grows and the chaffinches and the pigeons and the on and on it goes. You know, it's really astonishing, isn't it? I mean, do you think you could even understand what someone that intelligent would be talking about when they said anything? Would you even notice that they had taught? Do you think? And it's uh so it starts to become very interesting, and it doesn't become an argument about do you believe in fairies or not? It becomes, well, let's practically consider whether there might be a designer of some form.

SPEAKER_01

I love that because it it creates conversations instead of disconnection or I am this or you are that. Um and I think the world in some ways, you know, and it's the hope of the podcast, I feel like the world is is longing for the connected conversation instead of the right, wrong, good, bad, yes, no, true, not true. So, so uh I I do like the the idea of being in conversation, or even, you know, I'd be curious, John, like for people listening who are like, I'd love to have these conversations with my spouse, with my child, with my mom or dad or future boyfriend, or how do they start? Because some people I would say are in the spiritual closet. They're very happy to listen to this and they're very happy to have their own journey, but they're not necessarily integrated into their personal, family, professional lives. So how how do they start? What do they do with people around them?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so um there's a guy called Henry Suso, who is a 17th-century mystic and a follower of St. John of the Cross, a famous Spanish mystic who spent most of his life in a cave considering the nature of reality, uh, who had a number of great ideas that have lasted. The Long Dark Night of the Soul is one of his lines. Having tried to overcome his own personality, which is, I say, the only struggle worth having, he decided that, in his opinion, the achievement of patience was a greater miracle than the resurrection of the dead. He found it very difficult to be patient, and that's why he's called a saint, because he he managed it. And Henry Suso has a line which is the QI motto By ignorance the truth is known. If you want to really know something, the first thing is to understand you don't know anything at all. You haven't got to first base. Okay, I don't care how many degrees you have, you haven't really thought about anything very much, and certainly not about the things that are important. And that's what happened to me. Fortunately, I was very lucky. That didn't occur to me. I was told in no uncertain tone, when I had my first thing that happened when I had my crisis, the first thing I thought was, I don't know anything. I don't even know about the job I do, which is directing television commercials. I don't really know what depth of field is, you know, and I have no idea what the cameraman's doing with the light meter. I haven't the faintest notion. I mean, yeah, I've shot hundreds of commercials, I've won prizes for them, but I don't know the faintest thing. I couldn't explain how a microphone worked. I was horrified, Ariane. You know, I went to Cambridge University, I got a law degree. I thought I was a reasonably smart guy, and that rug was pulled away from me, and I was really depressed for, I don't know, a couple of months. And it was a long time before I thought, I'm free, this is wonderful, I don't have to be right anymore. I can just be curious. And the thing is, one thing is definitely uh uh uh on the road to recovery, is you have to take responsibility for yourself, you know, put your own oxygen mask on first and get to it. You know, you're the problem. It's not everyone else who's a problem. It's you've got to, you know, make make a start, have a small.

SPEAKER_01

So, John, with someone who's longing to have these kind of conversations with their mother, father, colleague, brother, wife, how would you start?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I tend not to I tend not to ever offer advice, um, I mean particularly not to one's children. Um, you know, but if anyone asks, and even when they ask, that people don't really want advice. They just want comfort. They want to be told they're doing a great job and they're very nice, and that's fine. But in the event that people do ask, or when I sense that they are in dire straits, I drop some of these in to help. Uh find particularly people who've been recently bereaved. I've got two very good friends who both lost sons who are in their early 20s, one in a hit and run accident in in California, and uh one to dreadful uh aggressive cancer. And talking to them, I know has helped them a lot to think of it in a different way. You know, that is it that death isn't necessarily the end of everything. I mean, because of course we don't know, and and one of the things about doing QI for 25 years is I remain the professor of ignorance. I don't know anything, but I have learned a lot of things that I found helpful, whether they're true or not, is not, and that is the thing about a faith, a working philosophy, is in does it help you get through the day? If it does, it's a good thing. Doesn't matter whether it's true, it doesn't matter if there's no karma or

Ignosticism — the religion in waiting with five commandments

SPEAKER_00

we're getting a second life. If you think there is, it's like the placebo effect, you know. If you're getting a pill that says this will make you better, it's just made of sugar, and you believe it'll make you better, you will get better. The placebo effect is more effective than most drugs.

SPEAKER_01

You mentioned the other thing that I loved. I mentioned it in the introduction, is this uh you are the sole member of this religion and waiting. Tell me what is that religion, and you know, I want to know if I want to become a member or if some of these other listeners and viewers want to become a channel.

SPEAKER_00

Well, Ariane, I'm I was going to invite you to become the first deacon of the uh the ch Church of Ignosticism, but I'm not sure you'll enjoy the costume, which is quite complicated and has a very large hat. So But no, again, it's obviously this is not a serious thing, but again, I it helps me as a metaphor, as a way of looking at things. So the first thing about ignosticism, it only has five commandments. Okay, so it's twice as easy as Christianity to to deal with. It's a lot less work, and they are one, no fear, two, be kind, three, don't worry about what the others are doing. Four, do what you know to be right, and five, cheer up for Christ's sake.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so so the first one I think is the hardest. Because fear is we're we're human beings. We're locked in, we've got brains, we there's you know, our your fears are different than

The five commandments explained: no fear, be kind, don't worry about others

SPEAKER_01

mine. Just walk me through that one. So we used to we had a saying something that you have a fear of, and and how do you apply the agnosticism commandment to that?

SPEAKER_00

Walk towards the sound of gunfire. That's the thing. Bravery, said William Makepeace Thackeray. Bravery never goes out of style. Isn't that lovely? Bravery is just a good thing to do. As a skier myself, cowardly skiers fall over. Bright brave skiers do not. You know, you have to go. Do you ski?

SPEAKER_01

I do. I'm a big skier. I s I live half the year in uh Switzerland. Well, you know, Swiss Alps.

SPEAKER_00

Well, lucky you. But go face the fall line, don't you? That's the rule one of skiing. Face down the fall line. Don't do this, you'll fall over. It's well attested in simple physical things like that, or anything else, any kind of bravery. The the email you don't want to write because you're frightened of what reaction you get, the sense of relief you find when you press send, and then even better, you get a thing back from the person saying, Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes, I quite agree with you. I I totally actually it's very convenient for me. That often happens. I mean, nobody said it's going to be easy, you know, people of human. beings have been around for you know up to a million years perhaps and we're still making the same mistakes so something's going horribly wrong the this the cycle is not is not stopping so you know yeah be in any bravery in almost any circumstance is a good thing you know what's right to do you and I know perfectly well when we're doing wrong that we shouldn't really do that we know when we're being mean you know we know when we're being unfair and that you can live by that because just knowing you know not don't be opportunistic don't be unkind you know to be just go on being nice so so the the the but I think there should be what I would call a third way between Orthodox religion which is these are the rules I've learned them and you're wrong because these are the rules this is the word of whatever holy entity there is and scientists who say there's no need for this stuff the universe is a meaningless accent we've worked it all out science knows everything and those arguments are completely futile you know and uh and they will never stop arguing with each other it's just but a third way something which is happy to espouse science and to have and uh to have be familiar with the great religious faiths and the good that they have done and to be able to talk about that to to maybe to to to live better and to have an easier life which is and have a sense of because all the the current research is is

The pursuit of meaning over happiness

SPEAKER_00

futile trying to be happy everyone wants to be happy it shouldn't be life liberty in the pursuit of happiness it should be life liberty in the pursuit of meaning that's what people need a meaningful life is what you need and happiness will come you know as it does like weather sometimes you're happy sometimes you're not but meaning never really leaves you and that's why things like synchronicity are so interesting and important because if the universe as I propose is a sort of giant intelligent teaching machine that's a hint it's going there is meaning do you see there do you see meaning there's one it's just poked through the fabric you see there's another one it is meaningful and so that's what I think synchronicity does for me. It's like you know when we say what are the chances I mean they are infinitesimally small usually not you know your mother calling but the connections you make between people that are so odd, so utterly improbable and those happen to me quite a lot.

SPEAKER_01

I want to ask you what you see if any the relationship between the the sacred and the spiritual and humor and comedy you know it it's pretty rare to have someone like you who you know is can speak as eloquently about the subjects we're speaking about and is you know as humorous and funny and has seen has seen the humor in life in meaning in problems in suffering

The connection between comedy, consciousness, and the sacred

SPEAKER_01

talk to me how those two how those two have come together for you.

SPEAKER_00

I think um humour is a very good way of getting people's attention and getting them to remember things and uh surprising them shocking them perhaps and on a practical level it's an amazingly good tool for communication. You know any speech which has really two really good jokes in it or humorous remarks is orders of magnitude better than one that has no sense of humour at all. I mean particularly you are a very warmhearted and vibrant person and smart and funny. Thank you when I saw your TED talk it was more serious. I that's the one thing I took away from watching the the unedited rough cut of my thing I wish I'd smiled more I wish I'd shown how much I was enjoying myself I was a bit too serious.

SPEAKER_01

I know but sometimes as a comedian when you are serious people think you're being serious as part of being funny.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah of course of course that's also I don't like people laughing at their own jokes but no I think I often say I happen to be the professor of ignorance at a university in Southampton here because I refuse to be a professor of comedy because I don't know how it works. After 50 years doing it I've no idea I know that it works. I know I can make it work but what's under the bonnet I have no idea I don't know why things are funny why we find things funny what it's there for. But as I say I do believe we're living in a one way of looking at life we're living inside a gigantic practical joke that when we get out the other side of it we will be so relieved you know it's just a giant hilarious dream. It's so easy when you're looking out from the outside in you see well but of course of course why couldn't they see it? How could they be so thick?

SPEAKER_01

It's some version I've often thought even when I the first time I saw the Truman show I was like oh yeah it makes sense for all of us. We've all got our little bubble around us and you know things are being organized and scripted so that we pay attention and that we you know knock on the edge and kind of get out and walk out I've always felt that's why I think the Truman show and the Matrix these why those sort of science fiction shows have such resonance because they're getting at the things that people worry about.

SPEAKER_00

You know, why do we die? What's the point of anything in a fictional way particularly with a bit of humor in is it okay I can now that I know I'm in the Truman show I can deal with it now. All the other people are just a fiction and what do you know it's me I have to fix.

SPEAKER_01

That's what the Truman show's saying you know all And I've got to have the courage to walk out and get across the sea and get across the ocean and say no to the relationship or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00

Or you know Grandhog Day is another one that's to say this is what you're doing. You're going the same thing over and over and over again every single day and you don't realize for God's sake change the pattern. You don't have to be like that guy he's stuck in it but you are in exactly the same pattern in your actual life.

SPEAKER_01

So John my the the my question was for parents who are listening to this and who want to keep this awake alive

How to raise children with curiosity, wonder, and respect instead of dogma

SPEAKER_01

you know in their children at any age how did you do it? Did you ask questions? Did you what's the portal?

SPEAKER_00

I've got two uh broad tips about kids um well three so the reincarnation thing I don't know that I believe in reincarnation but I can tell you this you will not go far wrong as a parent if you behave as if the children have been sent to teach you something. You need as quickly as possible to understand that because children are shorter than you they are not stupider. They have less information but they are at least as intelligent as you and I used to say to my wife when we were very shouty youngish parents you know if we spoke to our friends the way we speak to our children we would not have any friends. So treat your children with friendly respect in the way that you would treat everyone else. I mean most people don't treat everyone the friendly respect that's that's what you see when you go to a really good hotel the staff treat you with friendly respect not as a cringe they don't cringe at you and they don't look down at you. They treat you as like I would treat every Uber driver for example just a person I don't happen to know is just as good as me. That's the second thing and the third is a very practical tip that definitely definitely works. As soon as you can do this right you know the way just as you've got the little blightist to bed and you're sitting down with a glass of wine with your beloved and after a long day and there's a little voice Daddy can we play Lego don't go go to bed you wretched child it's mummy and daddy's time we want to get drunk. Don't do that and don't try and push them back to bed. What I'm saying to you is this when a small child asks you for help or advice or something they want to play at any time of day or night whatever it is no matter how much you think the thing you're doing is more important don't do that. Do it immediately without question okay tell the person on the phone to LA sorry something's come up I'll call you right back you know tell the people in the meeting ah sorry I've just got to pop outside for a second I'll be back in a sec. And then do it you know play Lego you know go to the swings whatever it is get some cornflakes. If you do that consistently without complaint for about a year they will never do it again. Because once a child knows that they can have your absolute attention whenever they want it, they don't need it anymore. And then we've come right full circle because paying attention to your children, pay attention. And the other thing that I had to learn is see the other person's point of view. You're not right just because you're paying for it. You know the other person has an equally valid point of view and the sooner you get to understand that the happier you will both be.

SPEAKER_01

John the last thing I want to just bring up um and especially in the realm that I know it's your son I believe it's your son Harry who is the musician.

Harry Lloyd — broken back, near death, and a life dedicated to music

SPEAKER_01

I believe he also broke his back skiing? Yeah he did and had you know the long road to recovery um but I want I want to just hear what type of music it is where listeners can find him just tell us a little bit about about him and you know what it was like for you to see your son injured and then you know pursue his joy and really be in his own magic.

SPEAKER_00

Okay well he was a very very good skier from very young and he was dyslexic is dyslexic and struggled at school didn't want to go to college and so trained in Argentina got his British qualifications to become a ski instructor and then spent two years training to become a French ski instructor and he was I was so proud of him he there were on his final test there were 80 kids you know in their teens nearly all of them French alpine born and Harry came top with the best time it's the third proudest day of my life I just was so so wonderful. And he did he had the life of Riley you can imagine three years handsome dude he is having the most fun in uh Courchevel and then one beautiful blue day deep powder perfect weather up on the high mountain he hit something under the snow double ejected from both his skis somersaulted and landed on his neck smashed tubervertebrae. They got him the order the chopper to take him to Grenoble and they gave him a as you do a morphine shot for the incredible pain and they nearly killed him because he had a fit and his friend Fred who was also in the chopper helping him looked it up on Google and found that Harry has a morphine allergy which obviously didn't know he's ever had morphine in his life they got to the hospital and the young Russian intern doctor said Fred said to this guy my friend has a morphine allergy and the guy said I've never heard of such a thing that'd be silly and they gave him another one and then they thought they nearly killed him and he did actually he was actually technically dead for several minutes on the operating table his heart stopped and so he's very very lucky to be alive and I'm very lucky that he is alive and in the chopper fighting for breath because of the morphine allergy he had a little epiphany and he said whatever's up there if you give me a second chance I'm gonna stop mucking around being a ski instructor you know behaving very badly and being silly and dedicate my life to music and that's Harry's mission to spread to spread joy and and so he's still waiting for Smith he writes beautiful songs some of them are very sad some of them are unbelievably upbeat and jolly and they're all just he's a great tune smith he writes wonderful tunes that you won't be able to get out of your head.

SPEAKER_01

When Harry was technically dead did he did he cross over? Did he feel out of his body?

SPEAKER_00

Did he have those kind of experiences that some people I don't think so but he did Harry as you can imagine never does anything by halves he always he's a a real extremist and he went on a Vipassana retreat do you know what those are yeah I've been 10 days silent meditation one of the hardest things I've ever done. Very hard. So Harry went on one of those he had in that 10 days 60 past life experiences. No one else in the retreat did but you know that's the thing Harry really went for it so he is a very Harry's I wouldn't even say the word isn't there isn't a word for it he's not convinced or sure he knows Harry knows that he's been here before amazing maybe we'll have Harry on we'll have Harry on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

And uh John I I could keep talking to you but I'm aware that we're way over time. I want to thank you for your your heart your generosity your kindness you

Closing reflections

SPEAKER_01

I I've I've been here my you know I'm I write as well so I'm always taking notes and um I I feel like there is something very beautiful and aligned that is coming through you. So I want to just encourage you to keep widening keep widening keep widening and yes you are a comedian and I think you are also an author in waiting and you're also a religion in waiting and you're also a documentary filmmaker in waiting. So um we are and it's funny that your son's band is called Waiting for Smith so I'm gonna set up I'm waiting for Lloydie here on a few on a few things thank you so much it's been an absolute joy Ariane Ariane the good neighbor good for you. That's true absolutely thank you. If this conversation moved you or inspired you please follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts and if it really moved you please leave us a five star review. It really does make a big difference. And finally if someone came to mind while you were listening to this episode please send it their way. Remember new episodes drop weekly I'll see you very soon