Episode 6 - Ann Marie Kelly Lohan

Ann Marie has been on a fascinating journey from accountant to M.D. working with both multinationals and SME's. And if that wasn't enough variety, she is about to launch her own consulting business.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

All right, so I'd like to welcome Anne-Marie Kelly Lohan of CWS Hygiene to the podcast. Anne-Marie, thanks very much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Thanks, Leo. Thanks for having me and inviting me on. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Yeah, you're more than welcome. And I'm very interested in hearing your story because based on uh what I've heard to date, you've been on a very interesting journey of accounting to MD and soon to be a consultant and uh fractional CFO. So that sounds like a very interesting journey. Um, Amory, can you tell us? So do you want to tell us a bit about your your your journey to this point and what's next for you?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Yeah, sure. Um yeah, sure, Neil. I suppose I was started like most accountants and did uh chartered accounting qualification in an accounting firm. So I trained in a top 10. So a good mix of SMEs and uh maybe larger businesses. And from then I moved after a brief uh state of financial services, moved into um CRH PLC, which is uh well at the time was Ireland's largest PLC, uh building materials company. I spent many years there in a few different roles, so um audit, project management, business controlling, um procurement roles, and senior financial controller roles, before ultimately in 2018 moving to um an SME based in Riscontrol called Service Matters. Um and that was really, I suppose, more of a lifestyle move as well. Um to the stage I was in my life and I wanted to move down the country, um, but also wanted to keep my career and also get into like smaller businesses and really get a more operational focus. Um so after several years there, then that business actually ultimately became acquired by uh CWS and CWS Hygiene. So CWS already had operations in Ireland, they're a large uh German multinational, um, so they have operations all over Europe and they're owned by uh the Haniel family. Um, so it was a really interesting time actually because I got an opportunity to really have a seat at the table for the negotiations, help the company prepare with the due diligence, and then afterwards do the integration. And I had done a lot of this integration, I suppose, from the acquiries perspective when I was in CRH. So it was quite different to be able to come at it from a different perspective of the acquired businesses.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

So um ultimately, yeah, and ultimately, I suppose the CWS used that as an opportunity to divisionalize their business in Ireland. And when the founder retired then from the acquired business, I went on to the MD role then back in um early 2023, started 2023. So it was um yeah, it was an exciting journey and probably not one I originally set out on, but um, yeah, but I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah, and it's interesting what you're saying there. You've seen both sides of it. So um being acquired and being the acquirer. Um, I'd be curious because this was a you know, a lot of the audience for this podcast could be business owners who might be looking to sell the business at some stage. Um, what kind of would you have any particular advice or you know, from your experience of going through both sides of uh those transactions?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah, I suppose um look at my background, but always be in the financial side, and these uh these transactions don't happen unless the numbers stack up.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

So what I found um we weren't really preparing for sale essentially in that in that business here in the small business in Roscommon. But essentially, a lot of the groundwork we have done to get the um, you know, time very timely management accounts, a lot of the basics were some of the basics were there, but they weren't as timely. So trying to professionalize that, not just looking back, but looking forward, projecting forecasts, knowing the details of your customers, um, putting the structures in place and the management team. So not necessarily that's that the business can run without you, which is a lovely phrase people love, but so that as the manager of the business, then you can focus on the strategic stuff and you're not drowning in operations and day-to-day decisions, so that then when the business is acquired, you know, the team that go with the business then can run the business or it's easier to do. So those are probably the two real fundamentals. Um, that and of course, um having a good handle on your profitability because that'll impact your your price you can get. It's all about the EBITDA multiples. So once your profitability is solid, that'll um obviously also impact your uh the price you can get for your business. That'd be hard to get it.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Yeah, of course, that's a big factor. Um, and the other thing you mentioned there about going from kind of multinational to SME back to multinational, because I know I've made that transition as well a few times. Uh just as well, can you can you remember what was what were the main differences, especially going from the multinational to the SME? What did you find the biggest differences or changes when you made that move?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah, good question. Um, I suppose on the positive side, um what was great in the smaller business was the um how agile you could be. So like you could make a decision and just go. So there wasn't the red tape, there wasn't the you know, having to go through and put all these proposals together. And I worked for quite a you know, uh sales type and a really entrepreneurial type. MD and the founder was uh was excellent there. So you know, if you came up with a good good um good idea for the business, it you know, there was always a lot of freedom to okay, go give it a go, try it out, rather than having to put together multiple business cases and approvals and go through that process. So that was one of the positives. Um on the I suppose the challenges then there was, you know, you you probably had some support, you know, for things like uh funding, you had a treasury department for IT, you had IT departments or you know, other maybe entities that had gone through the same challenges as you in the same business as you. But that was a bit more um, you were a little bit more, I won't say isolated, like we did have advisors and and people that supported us, but you didn't have the same internal network that you'd have in a multinational.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So kind of those pros and cons. Yeah, I know it's interesting, isn't it? Um and when you stepped up, I mean, when you stepped up from the say finance role to the MD role, quite a change. Can you remember, say, the first couple of years? What what were the hardest, what were the more I suppose, what were the biggest challenges you faced in the initial phase, maybe a year or so, when you stepped into the MD role?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, like in one sense, I was really lucky because I was transitioning into that role somewhat unbeknownst to myself over a period of time.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

So, you know, as uh, and I don't know, some of your uh listeners might be obviously small business owners that are selling, you know, but it's quite different for the owner sometimes when they transition into a larger environment because it's it's very different for them, whereas it was easier for me, having come from a corporate background. So I suppose I took a lot of the corporate side of the MD role on because you just do it, and a lot of it is the reporting, yeah. Um, and then you learn a bit more about the operations. Um COVID also got me very involved in the operations at the time as well, the DD um the due diligence process. But I suppose once the founder moved on as well, I think one of the bigger challenges was you know, when you're making decisions, you have it's there's a bit of an element of loneliness there, like yeah. Uh so that was a bit of um yeah, yeah, you're not you don't have the same team. Okay, you have a team, obviously, but it's just not it's not all on everyone else's shoulders either, you know. So there's that part of it. Um huge change management part of of that role as well, because we were going through a massive change in the business. Um but that was okay. I nearly found that invigorating, but it's sometimes then when you had to make some of the big decisions and it was a challenge. And with all the data in the world, um, sometimes they were they were tougher to implement, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah, I know. It kind of was the buck stopped, which you really did it in terms of when decisions had to be made. Yeah, absolutely. You really, I suppose, was it?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, that that's it. Whereas I was always nearly like the number two and supporting and arguing for the decision and supporting the data, you know, when you're the finance guy the FT essentially.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah, and you mentioned boards earlier on. So was there board or was there any any other resource you had when you had to make that kind of decision that you could run it by somebody?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Uh yeah, no, in fairness we did. So here, um, because we're because we are part of the corporate group, we had like I have a regional manager director who I report us, so in fairness, there was always a good sounding board there, also.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You didn't have a mastermind group, you know. I was saying to earlier, I run mastermind groups, and I suppose one of the advantages is you're you're you're tapping into the knowledge and experience of of other people, and like people bring along their challenge to the group, so it can be it can be good to get other perspectives. Whereas at times in business, I know it can be a bit lonely, I suppose, when you have to make those decisions. Um, so you made the transition into MD, and you know, it was obviously a transitionary period. Um, can you remember a time when it started getting a bit easier? Like you're saying, oh, I think this is clicking into place now, the kind of MD role.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, I think um, like at the outset, I suppose my my internal fear for divulging a bit to you now was you know, I had always managed people who um who were, I suppose, accounting people or auditors or whatever. So I was always managing people who maybe wanted my job ultimately, you know, so there was always a good defined path. Whereas so my bigger challenge was wow, I've never managed a team of salespeople and operations, um, you know, because we have like a laundry, and so there's a big laundry operation, there's a logistics function, the logistics is the biggest part of it, customer care, um, the accounting back office, I was probably okay with that. I had managed that. So that was okay. So, but so that was probably one of my bigger concerns going to the job. But I think once I settled and realized actually the strengths I got in my in my background as in the finance side of the house are really what I can move that forward. I have the trust in the team. This, you know, our sales manager is an excellent salesperson. Once I can, I know how to how to support him and give him what he needs and how all of these different parts of the business click together. I can I know that from my finance side. So I think it's with that confidence in my own experience to lead everybody else. And I nearly saw it as being like the choir leader, you might need to be the best singer or the best musician. Yeah, yeah. You can pull it all together to get a nice sound, you know. So that was really what we needed to do in the business. So I think once I had confidence um in in the I I was able to get it to prove.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Choirmaster, we won't be getting a song or anything.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

No, no, not today, not today, no, not at this hour of the day, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yeah, it's been early. The um, and I'm just thinking about the MD role, and you know, like I know myself, the accountant, sometimes you know the bean counter or whatever. So, I mean, I'm not saying the salespeople would have a different, you know, sometimes salespeople can be, you know, uh a different kind of mindset. Um, and maybe, you know, looking at the new MD who's a bean counter, they might have, you know, they might say a counting hat. Um, was there ever any challenges around, you know, I'm not saying salespeople, I'm using that as an example, you know, sales or engineering or whatever, where you've people from a different department um uh, you know, kind of uh I don't know, challenging you or or there are any, you know, any times like that where you felt there was um just that little bit of um uncertainty going on with you know other departments or the people.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, look, there's always a bit from time to time. People always want maybe something, things that aren't in their budget, or we are delivering, or over-delivering, and therefore we mean to spend somewhere else. But I think um, like one of the things I did over the period of time that I was here as well is being very structured on our monthly meetings, which meant that as with the implications of whether it was overspending or deviating a little bit on prices or whatever, the impact of that could be seen by every head of department. And I think that level of transparency and understanding then helped everybody. So, yeah, there's always going to be challenge from salespeople, engineers, and accountants will always clash somewhat. That was uh C or H uh uh job as well. But um, I think when you have the transparency and you know, the everyone moving in the same direction, you know, the same clear priorities, that that helps us all to align and make the decisions better. Then keep the business is supposed to be at the forefront, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yeah, and I suppose look, uh, I remember years ago, right hearing about you know, you'd have accountants going into senior roles and MDs, and I suppose the numbers side of it is a huge strength, isn't it? Because business is about numbers. Um, yeah, there's other things come into it as well. But numbers play such a huge part that I suppose having that background, you know, even with salespeople, you could have KPIs and metrics and targets, yeah. So it does help. Uh I'm guessing having that finance background helps. Um, DMD role, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah, and being able to make tough decisions with confidence, then because you can do the analysis and you understand the numbers and the commercials behind the decisions that have to be made, whether it's investment decisions or pricing decisions. You know, you can get into the nitty-gritty and understand it. And I think that also brings quite a lot of credibility as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yes, absolutely. So you touched there on the monthly reporting, and I was going to ask you about that anyway, in a while, so we might as well uh talk about it now. Um, I I'd I'd love to hear just a bit about the monthly reporting in terms of how the you know the meetings, how the structure was, the report thing, what came out of the meetings. So, because I I've done quite a lot of that. My own clients over the years, just so I'd be curious to see how it worked for yourselves in terms of that monthly reporting and uh meeting and process works. How did that work for you?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, sure. Um, so it I suppose this was something that evolved quite a bit over time, and it you know, it's not even a straight line up, it kind of really goes up and down like a bit of a poster, as you can imagine. Um so like when we were in the SME, we put a huge amount of effort into making very um, I suppose, strong accounts and strong forecasts, and then you move into a multinational, and there's okay, they have absolutely you know big reporting requirements, but also they're looking at it all in a different way. So there's a lot of uh mindset shift around that um and moving systems on that. But yeah, I suppose ultimately um there is look at it's it's it's detailed financial reporting every month, like you'd have in any organization with tight deadlines. So day day four typically would be your submission date.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So it is really, you know, your detailed profit and loss account. Um, we're a service business, so it's contract value is a big part of it, and you know, recurring revenue would be um a huge part of ours as well as with the trade sales are, but that would be um a big part of ours as well as what new business is coming on every month. So they'd be key parts of it. Then we'd also have operational metrics that we report on monthly, so um, you know, complaints, customer complaints, um, you know, what we're processing here every month. We have, as I mentioned, we have a large laundry, so you know, yeah, and and what's your cost per piece, you know, your delivery schedules and KPIs there as well. So there's a lot of operational reporting, and then is to break that down and make it more granular so that the operations can understand it that bit more.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah. Um, and yeah, a lot of good reports, I suppose. And you're going through us with each department going through their reports just to uh give their report on what's happening and variances and so on. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

And then if the business changes, the reports need to change with it, you know, so your priorities can change, or we we outgrow reports as well, as I find, you know, we can end up doing them and then you're you're doing it to tick the box rather than really to move the business. So that can be the challenge as well to elevate yourself as the business is growing and the the uh priorities change to move the report and your priorities with it.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, of course, yeah. And the um and would there be kind of a series of actions coming out of the meetings, or what was the normal the outcome of the meetings? You're reviewing the reviewing the reports and maybe variances or anything that needs to be addressed, or what what was the normal kind of outcome? Would there be a series of actions or what would be? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

So usually it was like what what are the operational actions out of these? What are the priorities for the month ahead? So that was and what support do we need from each other to get to these priorities?

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Important to know to mention as well that we were going through a large uh change management program at the time. So you know the business itself was divisionalizing, the customers were splitting and moving left and right, sometimes the people were, and also we were moving uh physical location as well, because we had a multi-million euro investment here in Roscommon as well. So it meant we were moving to a new facility. So there was huge change management and change in the business, as well as obviously having to keep a business operating profitably through the period of time. So, yeah, setting our priorities and how we can support each other and where were the big um action points and the customer interactions that needed to occur over the next period was a huge part of it as well, Neil, from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah. Um, and Timmy, the those meetings are very important. Um, do you ever find they become a bit routine? Or is you know, are there any things you'd look at to try and mix them up a little bit, or is it just kind of similar agenda, similar format, or how do you find that, you know, months after?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Smiling out because we're probably we're probably falling into a routine period at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

But uh, yeah, that that's absolutely um where we can. So look at it, it's simple things like changing bits around, starting with wins, celebrations of the wins of the positives, um moving around the agendas, um, you know, maybe themed meetings as well as something that you do. So yeah, you have your KPI section, but this time we're going to focus on budget or project or X, Y, and Z and trying to keep, you know, keep the bit of a momentum as well, so it doesn't get into uh, as you said, earlier tick the box.

unknown 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Every month, month in, month out. Yeah, it has to be like if you're taking a lot of senior people out of your business for half a day every month, it has to add a bit of value.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Of course, yeah, yeah. But very important, obviously, very important if that happens. The um, you know, the the MD role, I'm just curious about um where where your time is is spent, because I often think of MDs as being, you know, is it is there an element of being involved in looking after existing business or clients we'll say chasing new clients, um, the operation side of it. Uh, and I'm sure this can change from time to time. But if you look at those main aspects of a business, are there any particular ones that would take up more of your time than others?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah, this is really interesting. As I prepared to do a bit of a handover actually to try and um to try and quantify where what takes up the time and how it's how it takes up time. Um, and I suppose what I've really seen over the last number of years is that there's always a season. So there's different priorities. So in one season, your time can be taken up a lot with operations as things change and move, or you know, you might have a vacancy and you need to step in and spend a bit of your time supporting a particular team.

unknown 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Down a manager, for example. Um, but also then there are times that, like, of course, like I will absolutely account manage some of our key customers myself. Um, and that that's exciting, or chase new business or you know, yeah, grow some of the business. Uh, but yeah, absolutely. It changes as seasons go through from strategic priorities, budget setting, and setting aspirations to maybe having to get pulled into operations or the people side of things, you know, or even projects, um, depending on what's going on in the business. So we had a large investment, as I mentioned there. So, you know, that needed a bit of direction and a bit of push and to make sure that we were on time and getting, you know, get getting getting to where we wanted to go from the business perspective while also delivering this big project.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah. I'm sure, yeah, that focus can change from time to time, I suppose. Um and I mean just stepping back from it, looking at it, if there was say one thing you could change, might be a dangerous question to ask, you know, but anyway, I'll ask you. If there was one thing you could change about the business, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah, uh currently um I'd really think we could benefit from a lot better integrated systems. Okay and and there is there are plans afoot and there are changes to be made, but we are working on a number of different systems, and they are certainly not we're we're not managing them efficiently enough, if I'm really honest. Um so you know, they they're not interfaced as tightly as we'd like to see, and there's definitely more um room for automation and for more efficient processes. So that's what I'd love to change, and then at least all it does is it reduces scope for error, gives time to people to spend on more value-added stuff and growing our business and working with customers and being more proactive with them rather than spending time moving data from one side of the house to the other or fixing it, you know. So that's um that that's definitely a focus as the business is stabilizing now in 2026 to work on being more efficient and and growth.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah, better, more integrated systems, I suppose, so that there's more of a flow. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I suppose I just ask you one thing about your accountant, and I know I explained about the setup and all that, but I suppose your external accountants, if there was one extra thing they could do for you, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Um, yeah, it like it's a bit of a difficult question here because we don't really deal with like currently I with our setup in the multinational business, I don't deal with our external accountants a lot. We have like a shared accounting function. But if I go back to when we had the SME and I we had external accountants, maybe that'll be more relevant.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Like I think where the support would be on the more I suppose the more commercial side of the house, Neil, and supporting with that. Um, like accountants are great at you know the compliance, you know, the tax side, give you a great set of accounts. But um, you know, maybe they're doing that annually or quarterly for the bank or something. But it's the um it's it's the the the regular monitoring, understanding the profitability of the business, the cash, um, and the commercial side and how it all feeds in. That that's where I think they could add maybe a little bit more value in in a smaller business, particularly.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, helping helping the business understand those numbers, is it?

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah Yeah, exactly. And the impact of I suppose taking on new business and making sure that it's good new business, you know? Yeah, yeah. So that we're being very profitable. And scaling in a profitable um and efficient way.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

That's interesting, yeah. Because look, yeah, a lot of uh a lot of SMEs, yeah, like what you're saying is probably would be echoed by a lot of small business owners, is that the accountant will do the annual side, but it's more proactive monthly reporting or whatever else is kind of uh is is what a lot of them would look would like to get, but unfortunately they um it's not offered. So that's interesting. Um so I mean, Emory, that's that's um that's you know the your current role we'll say, but you have some exciting plans coming up, don't you? Do you want to tell us a bit about the direction you're heading in? A bit like myself 23 years ago, I I left Pfizer's um when nobody in Cork ever, they were all they were all trying to get in. They were like they'd chop off your arm to get in, right? And I was Leaf Pfizer, so I know I kind of have an idea what that's like. Um so do you want to tell us a bit about the role you're you're planning to make a big change, an exciting change?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, sure. So and I'm actually going to leave the role I'm in here um in the coming weeks. Um, and I'm gonna set up some, I suppose really to touch on some of those challenges we spoke about earlier.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

To set up um, you know, a bit of a consulting uh firm for my from working for myself, supporting smaller businesses. Um and it's really like that, like a fractional CFO. So someone that can come in and support, interpret the numbers, help the profitability, help the scaling. Um, so as well as a particular emphasis on those, you know, two to ten million businesses that are either scaling, uh maybe thinking of an exit, and what do I need to do to prepare for the next few years and using my experience really in the multinational SME and back to multinational to put those structures in place and to put the, I suppose, the maybe the commercial discipline as well that um that'll support that profitability improvement.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Absolutely. So um use all your experience and uh with going from the SME to the multinational or multinational SME and back again um to help business maybe plan for an exit, put the systems in place and make sure the profitability is being maximized. Is it that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, and uh I'm sure there's plenty of business owners out there who um who will be going through that process in the near future, and many of them are are not really prepared, they're probably too involved in the business, maybe don't have the systems, profitability isn't being maximized because I know I've worked with plenty of them. Um so listen, all the things you said there, there's a definite need for for all of those, and you have the experience. So I think um I think there's a certain need there, and I've no doubt you'll be you'll be uh you'll be very successful in um in that role working for yourself. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, thanks very much, Neil. Excited to be started.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Um is there anything else um maybe I didn't ask you earlier that you'd like to uh talk about?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

No, I think we've touched on a lot of it actually. Um we've we've kind of gone around round the houses there and uh the items.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, no, that's great. So listen, thanks very much for your time about your journey to here. And uh it's very exciting um listening to you talk about the your new role and the consulting role and fractional CFO, and there is a big demand out there for everything you touched on there. So um I want to wish you the very best of luck in your in your new role.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Thank you very much, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

And thanks for your time.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Thank you.