Kaushiki Chakrabarty Part 1 | Indian Music Journeys with Ranjana | S1E03

In this jam packed episode Kaushikiji will be exploring her relationship to the Ragas, her learning journey, Gurus and so much more. I look forward to hearing from you!

1. Introduction and Friendship [00:25]

2. Performing at the Royal Albert Hall and Different Venues [01:48]

3. Connecting Across Cultural Boundaries [06:07]

4. The Anatomy and Philosophy of Raga Music [09:54]

5. Time and Moods of Ragas [17:18]

6. The State of Play and Musical Magic [24:20]

7. Practice (Practice vs. Riaz) [28:09]

8. Her Father, Pandit Ajoy Chakrabarty, as a Superhero [36:12]

9. Early Training and Jnan Prakash Ghosh (Gandadu) [40:54]

10. Legacy and Passing the Torch [47:36]

🎵 Continue your journey with Ranjana:

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🎓 Self-Paced Vocal Course – Introduction to Hindustani Vocal https://www.ranjanaghatak.com/vocalofferings2/p/introduction-to-hindustani-vocal-self-paced-course

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📸 Follow on Instagram: @ranjanaghatak

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome Kojiki. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be finally chatting with you on camera. That's unusual.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

It's the first time.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Yeah, it is the first time.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

And it's also a full circle moment, I was thinking, because we became friends over 20 years ago. Oh yeah. More than 20 years. More than 20 years. I think 25 years. 25. In this building, Shutri Nandan. Yes. Thanks to Guruji Pandit Ajachakavati, your father. So this is a very special moment.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah, true. And also I think this entire journey is all thanks to music, our friendship, we meeting each other, you know, um, connecting with each other. Of course, there's there's a lot more to it, but it all started with music. And um I just whenever I go back to any of my relationships, connections, friendships, everything, one common friend I find is always music. Yes. That has always been the reason why I've ever connected with people.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah. This is very true. And I was thinking about what an honour it has been to witness your journey seeing you from being a student to a fully acclaimed still a student. A student and fully acclaimed unview vocalist now touring around the world. And I realized that to the date I saw you one month ago, yeah, the Royal Albert Hall in London. So how was that for you? What was that experience like?

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Uh actually if I think about it, uh like what the what historically uh you know it can mean going forward, uh, what um what it means, what it implies to Indian classical music and the representation of it, it's pretty huge because I think um me along with Ranjini Gaetri, we were the first Indian classical vocalists, that two female musicians who were performing at the Royal Albert Hall, representing Indian classical tradition, and um and it's huge. I mean, the impact of this going forward, I think it's it's one day which is going to go down in history. Um that you know that is of course very, very significant um in terms of my profession, in terms of my career, in terms of music being represented internationally at a platform which is so so glorious. But at the same time, I also want to say that you know, when I thought about it, when I saw pictures of Royal Albert Hall before I went there, of course it looked like a humongous space, absolutely stunning, gorgeous. But when I went, it felt like a very, very cozy, intimate um betuck. You know, betak is when you know we call it when there's a very intimate audience who understands music, who who does not respond with claps, but sometimes does aha and va va. You know, that kind of a vibe I felt. I think because it was round, yeah, uh nobody was too far away. So from the corners of my eyes, I could see people all around, and and the and the audience starts pretty like you know, close. So I could see their eyes, I could see their smile. So it felt like a very intimate, uh, beautiful space of sharing music. And I think over all these years, the kind of music that has happened there, you know, even the walls are tuned to music. This is true. Even the doors and the windows and the balconies are all in tune. So I think the vibe of that place was so special. And you know, beyond a point it felt like I was singing for one person. It was that um beautiful and pure, and uh and everyone was very true to that moment. I think that um added so much more beauty to my experience, and I will always remember that you know, one is the external reality of that space, and one the internal experience that I felt being on stage, which is always going to be a very special memory for me. Wow, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

And in terms of I mean, to continue from that, in terms of the venues that you have sung in, you've sung in so many different types of venues around the world and within India as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

I've been very fortunate. This year, especially I I performed at the Berlin Philharmonic. Just the day before? The day before Royal Albert Hall. I mean, something something that weekend had in store for me, very special. Yeah, so that venue was very special, and um of course Royal Albert Hall was super special, and all the other venues, Carnegie, I would I would say uh Metropolitan Museum, and ten days before the Royal Albert Hall, I was I was doing a tour in Europe and I was singing at the Theatre de la Ville in Paris. Beautiful venues and amazing audiences. I've been very, very lucky and very very fortunate, very blessed to have such amazing audiences who love the music that I represent and they come to listen with so much love. Yeah, so much love and you know positivity. I think that's that's the ultimate take back that I have, you know, after each concert. The kind of posity, the kind of blessings that I feel is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

And do you feel a difference in your relationship with the audience in different parts of the world, or is it does it feel kind of very similar now, but in still nuanced as well?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Uh I think before the music starts, I have all these different parameters in my head because you know this is in Paris there was like 95% European audience who've never uh really, you know, learnt or heard Indian classical music as their predominant form of music because they're listening to music from all over the world. So this is not the only kind of music. So their exposure to Indian classical music is mostly instrumental and even if little uh vocal music, but that's not that much. So when you know, before going on stage, I have these things in mind that maybe this is not the audience that I see in in in India, back in India, or maybe in US, where the audience profile is still uh more Indians. In the audience you see more Indians. Um but Europe, the audience, you know, I was I was singing in Bordeaux and Luxembourg, and these are not usual places for Indian classical vocal music to happen. So I think but the moment music starts and the moment I kind of I dive deep into wherever, whatever that takes over, um the the truth of it, the the depth of it. I think um it has a very very different way to connect with people beyond the boundaries of culture, language. I think on the level of instinct, yeah, in the level of uh the basic virtues, the basic beauty aesthetics that that humankind believes in and feels and experiences, I think music connects on those levels. And then those binaries, you know, you know, this is me and this is you, this is Indian and this is European, this is you know classical music and this is non-I think those just vanish beyond a point. I think they connect on a very, very different level, and I think with with experience, with with maturity, um with more and more kind of exposure to different kinds of audiences, I think something that I'm coming to understand is that um I if I make effort uh to connect with the audience depending on the logic, I might not be making a great connection. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

If I am just being true to to my art form and I'm trying to be very, very authentic and not trying to do anything which is custom-made for them, thinking that you know they don't understand. No, yeah, or they wouldn't connect. If I'm just being very, very true to my music, the tradition that has lived for hundreds and thousands of years, I think it has its own way to communicate. Absolutely. We just have to let it do its job. And more and more uh, you know, uh if we can learn to kind of step aside a little bit, like the eye can step aside and the music can take over, I think that is when the best connections are are made.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, also in terms of raga music and Indian music is something well all music I feel so passionate about, and and sharing, you know, some of that with the people around and the world, and it's like a fragrance of a flower. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

You just have to let the flower be.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yes. And then it does its job. It does its job. And is there something you you feel specifically about raga music that has maybe a difference, or what is the intention behind raga music that so many people feel that is different to other types of music? Of course, music is music, but but we feel something, you know, people close their eyes regardless of knowing about the music. Something happens. Yeah, what is it about uh about raga music that has that?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Um I think um I think the beauty of Indian raga music is um is the spectrum of sound and emotion that it travels across. Because for any other kind of music, uh even I would say um sometimes the structure of Carnatic music is such that it has a a kind of tempo range. So you understand tempo is very intrigued integral to our existence because you know our pulse speed is in a certain tempo, if the tempo goes up and down, we are in the ICU. Yeah. So tempo has a very, very important role in our existence, in our being. So I think what Indian raga music, uh, especially in Dustani, the North Indian uh classical music, raga music, uh, does is just it starts from a place of almost silence. So the alap, the basic introduction to the rag, structurally how we start a performance, is so silent and meditative. It's almost like listening to silence. So the sustains are so long that beyond a point you just start breathe, breathing deeper. So it just has a very deep impact in your physiology because if you're breathing deeper, your entire energies are changing. Yeah, your physiological changes are happening, so your metabolism is stay, you know, slowing down, your heartbeat is slowing down. So that alap does that to you. Yeah, so it starts from the zero. So it wherever you're coming from, the traffic, the tensions in the office, in the family, your wife shouting, whatever, yeah, then you come to the auditorium, you give yourself that time to kind of just breathe into that rug, and then it takes you to your equilibrium. It sets that that resets that everything to zero. And now when the rug starts its its journey, it just takes you step by step by step, like building blocks, and the tempo, the energy, the the movement, everything starts developing brick by brick. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, it's like all the scattered pieces will start coming together, yeah, and then it increases, the tempo increases, the momentum, you know, it it starts gathering the kind of momentum, and then at the end of it, when the climax happens, it's such a high tempo that you are so energized by them. Yeah. So it's not abrupt, it's not radically changing, it just takes you through the journey, and that's why sometimes people ask, why do you sing the first drug for an hour? Why is it 45 minutes? Because it's that journey, it's that it's like the journey of life.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

How it starts at a place which is, you know, very just being there. And then it develops, then you know, you start adding layers to that. Yes, and then those embellishments, those beautifications, those emotions, those feelings, those shades, those colors, they just add, they just get added to your painting.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

It's like Baba always says, it's like painting with air. So you have a canvas which is never ending, yeah, which is life itself, which is space itself, which is sound itself, which is silence itself. And then you start painting with your music, and different shades and different colours and different figures, different uh structures, some are molded, some are pointed, some are very heavy, some are very mellifluous. So you start painting your picture. Yes, and the more textures that you can add, more shades that you can add to your painting. At the end of it, when you see the painting, you see, wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

You know, and what are those shades that you add? Is that something that you do through emotion? Is that something that you do with the different technical you know, shifts that happen through that journey from different speeds? Like, I think I think it's both.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

I think what you learn is the skills, and what decides which skills to use is the emotion. Okay. So you choose the skill not to just for the sake of it. You choose the techniques and the skills according to what you want to say, what your story is, what your narrative is. And each rag, each day, will have a different story because your state of mind constantly changes. Like ragas like Yaman that I've been singing for I don't know how many years, the rag also changes with me. Like, you know, when I was a child, or when I see my child sing that rag, I see from where it's coming. And that same rag as I have grown up, I have evolved, I have had more life experiences.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

And um I started looking at the known things in a very unknown way, maybe. Um, I think the rag also changes. Now Yaman is very I mean, I sang Yaman I think um a month and a half back, um, somewhere in Bombay. It felt like it was a very different rag to me. So it's old and it's fresh, it's eternal and it's ever new. Not because I'm choosing skills differently or techniques differently, but my state of mind in that particular evening, at that particular time, is is making me feel a certain way, and to express that feeling, I'm choosing the techniques accordingly.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Right. Well, that's so it's so interesting because when I so I grew up in London, yes, uh, started studying Indian classical vocal music at the age of four, and you know, I was lucky that there were teachers at that time who could teach me, you know, but it was very difficult to come by, and so you know, some of the way that I was taught was very, you know, technical in terms of this is Ragyaman, this is the Aruhi, the the ascending-descending scale, and this is the mood attached to it. So often it would be like a rasa connected to each rag, and then when I came to study with Guruji and see how all of you perform, it had a different energy to it in terms of there is also this importance of looking at the lyrics of them of the composition. So, do you connect to the ideas of each rag as having particular moods, or is it like is like you were saying, the moods change according to the day?

SPEAKER_02 17:16

So do they have a general mood? Right. But yes, a raga um like Malkos will never have the mood of a rag like Hamsatwani. Right. So for the people who don't know what they are, so some of the ragas, um so interestingly, we also have a time attached to uh every rag, mostly all rags, um, of the North Indian classical music. So a Malkos is a late night, midnight kind of a rag. Um, and maybe uh uh Ahirbhairav is an early morning rug, a Yaman is an evening rug, um Pimpalasi is an afternoon rug. So what they've tried to do, I think historically, I mean of course there's no written record, so there's no objective proof to it, but I think after having you know learned this for so many years and you know I've seen senior musicians, legends talk about it for for years and hours. So I think what they've tried to do is to depict a particular emotion of that day. Like how would generally a person feel early in the morning? It would be meditative, you would want to do your prayers. In an Indian context, right, uh how would that day start? So it would start with a small prayer, it would start slow, it would start with appreciating nature, it would start with seeing the sunrise, and what that would make us feel grateful, humbled. So it's that kind of a morning. So the morning rags generally are a little devotional, they will have that slowness to it, they will have that pace to it. A midnight rag is again very deep and intense. Yeah. Because it's the entire day's, you know, experience kind of processing that. What whatever you've done, whatever you've felt throughout the day, you kind of process that and introspect. So it's very introspective. So when a rag is very introspective, as opposed to when a ra evening rag is very playful, so that objective difference in mood will be there. But it really doesn't uh you know fix the mood that you know evenings can only be playful. Yes, evenings can also be introspective. So a Yaman one day can be very playful predominantly, another day a Yaman can be very devotional because that evening is you know you're doing your prayers. So, like that, I would not attach a label to every rag saying that you are intense and you're not, and you're playful and you're never supposed to be serious. So it's not like that. But labeling people, yeah, it is like labeling people, yeah, and it is created, it's it's a part of nature, yes, yeah. So not every morning is the same, not every evening is same, not every midnight is the same. So that is how you know you are in a state of mind, and I think as much as the rag influences your state of mind, I think your state of mind also has an impact on the rag when you sing it. And um, you know, I always say this that you know the what and the how of music you can learn. But what you can't learn from outside, what cannot come to you as an information is the why of music. So you can learn what to sing and how to sing, right? But why you sing is a very personal journey, yes, and I think that's where the journey of a musician is never ending because the why keeps on changing.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

That's super interesting, yeah. Yeah, and it and it can be so connected to uh a part a personal journey, like you were saying, and and that is your style.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yes, yeah, your why will decide your style.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Interesting, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I know we have had so many discussions about everything. 25 years, literally everything that we've spoken about. But in terms of you know, what I see through I I've been teaching more over the last few years and and and also performing, and which has been such an incredible blessing. And I see a lot of people come to this music as it brings them a lot of peace. And that's actually how I got into the music. You know, I grew up learning and listening, but not listening so much until I was about a teenager. And I initially would listen to. Instrumental music and then I started listening to vocal music actually when I first heard Guruji in London. Yes. That was the first time I connected with an in-person performer, and I started to get a sense of what a raga felt like and was structured because before that it felt very blurry to me. I couldn't understand the lyrics, I didn't understand what was going on at performance. But you know, as so many, maybe some of you may have already heard him and you and your lineage, is that you really paint the picture of the rug from the moment you start the clarity of Baba's teaching and the system that he follows is is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

I mean, I I am supposed to be biased. Please pardon me. But I think after having um um kind of uh done this journey for such a long time and having met other people and having met other students who are coming from different disciplines of learning, I hear this every day. That you know, um, wow, this is something that makes a lot of sense. This is so scientific, this is so clear, this is so transparent, this is so, you know, um, you know, it's so analytical. It's not like you know, merely I'm doing it and you repeat it. So, so I think you know, I have been extremely blessed to have known this system only of learning, which which um as a child gave me a lot of um kind of toys to play around with because you know people have um toys and superheroes. I had 12 notes and they're my best friends, and I could arrange, rearrange permutations, combinations, creating uh you know, castles and rockets and spaceships with them. Oh, I love that. That's all of that, yeah. And they've been the building block of of my creativity, my my vocabulary, my language, my narrative, my life. And um, so there's endless possibilities. And um once you learn the principles of of mixing them and you know making great recipes with them, then it's um it's an unending journey of fun.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Well, that I mean I I made a note of the first time I played Thanpura with you here in Kolkata. I don't know if you remember the concert that it was. It was a that it was a private concert.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Private concert, yes, yes, yes, I remember. Remember.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

And one of the things that really stood out to me was how much fun you were having.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Oh yeah. You were just in this state of playing. I'm just interrupting, sorry. But last month when we did this concert at the Royal Albert Hall, yeah, I remember somebody told you that you know she was playing the tampura, she's the other other lady who was playing tampura with us. Yeah, yeah. She also said, I can't believe she was having so much fun. Yeah, fun has been constant.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, she was really struck by how much play and joy was on the stage, uh, which is you know such an incredible thing to witness and be a part of. So, what is it about this music that brings about that stage to play?

SPEAKER_02 25:13

It's a child in the toy store. Yeah, I mean, I'm I that's the only way I can be a child forever with the teenager's son. Yeah, there's no other way left. So, yeah, I'm I'm I'm super excited when I get to sing because uh you know it's as I said it it's it's a super familiar space, but every time it offers something that's that's so new, yes, and every time I'm like, wow, you know, last last two, three days I've been just I've been going mad with Bharevi, a rag that I've heard and I've sung so many hundreds of times, but something is happening with Bhairavi. It's just it's just transforming for me, it's just becoming something else, and I'm so hooked on to it. Like yesterday till I think one in the morning, I was just sitting alone and singing and listening. It's just so beautiful, it's just um it's it seems it's just talking to me in a very different way. So every time that happens, and it it has to happen. See, I can't make it happen. Nah. Um, you know, the audience sometimes because because the audience sees us doing things on stage, they think that we are in control and we are doing things, but it just has to happen, it's like a magic, and we can only wait and pray and uh be in the right headspace, and as I said, you know, step aside a little bit so that the magic can happen and we are not we are not hindrance to it, but then it just takes over, and the more it takes over, more effortless it is, and an amazing journey it is. It's just so difficult to explain this as well in words, but yeah, it's it's just you uh for the first so many years, maybe 10, 12, 15 years, you learn to learn the elements and to mix them and to create something out of them. But when you're doing that, yeah, I think at the at the back of the process, the art form is also you know embracing you little little little valuable, and then that friendship, that friendship translates into uh an amazing journey of challenging each other, understanding each other, having absolute trust in each other, and then you know, taking your leap of faith that that nothing can go wrong.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Yes. Wow. Well, I mean, and it's so interesting to sort of think about how that journey has changed, obviously of course, in terms of your own practice as well, in terms of when you were practicing with with your baba, like when you were young and now. So what does practice look for you look like for you now? Oh cough.

unknown 28:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Uh practice. I think practice and riyas um is it sounds like it's a translation of the same word, but I think it it signifies slightly different things to to to me, honestly. Practice would mean um assimilation of information uh and repetition and uh getting it perfect. Yeah. Like the weight of it, the fall of it, the the the intricacies of it, the sharpness of it, the the the the points of um certain frequencies of it, hitting the right note, doing it in the right pace, the tempo of it, speed, technique, all that. But Riyaz is this and more. Right. Okay. Riyaz is of course the repetition which is doing the dishes, whether you cook a dal or a spaghetti or um or a salad or kitriya, whatever. You have to do the dishes, that's one thing. That's one part of practice, which is the bulwark, which is the repetition, which is the um, you know, the the the the shining and polishing of things. That you have to keep doing all your life. It's just it's just one given.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

The other part of riyas is the internalization of of the space that a rag kind of provides you with. Right. Because that also comes as an information in the beginning. But then um so when we are students, we are also listeners. Because what is the guru doing? The guru is singing, and what is the student doing? The student is listening.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

So you are first a listener. What makes your student when you can analyze and internalize what you're listening? Right. So everybody is an audience, yeah. Everybody is a listener, and everybody starts as a listener. You liked something you heard, so you wanted to learn. So we are all listeners in the beginning. And throughout our lives, we should be a listener.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And a listener is non-judgmental. A listener is a receptor, a listener is ready to embrace and accept. Right. And the student will analyze and you know, pick and choose what they want to kind of incorporate into their music. So this process of internalization is also real.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

So it's an active listening.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

It is active listening. For a student, it's always active listening. So when you're listening to your teacher, you are analyzing and internalizing and assimilating the information. At the same time, when you're listening to other artists, you are also internalizing that. Then the processing that happens, yeah. The marination that happens. A lot. So my all my analogies are either for me for cooking. I'm a better side than a single thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

She's actually very good.

unknown 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

That unfortunately we can't say that in the podcast. So yeah, so the marination that happens before you kind of put it in the oven, yeah, is also part of the riyaz.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Right, yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

So it's not only polishing and repeating the thing, that is practice. Yeah. And uh riy's is, you know, um also listening to what's coming from inside, not only what's coming from outside.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

So it's that emotional. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

How you're how you're stitching the information with your feeling, with your innermost emotions.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

How is that rag talking about you? And you're not merely repeating what you've heard. So I think that assimilation process is a very integral part of Ryas.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yes. And do you feel like that happens at a particular stage or after is it after a certain number of years? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

After a certain number of years and certain number of hours and involvement, it's not only when you sit with the Dhanpura, it's also at the back of your mind what stays. You know why we insist on, you know, a number of hours? Because when you practice something for four hours, even when you've gotten up, you know, you're doing your chores, you know, everyday things, if you've practiced intensely for four hours, it lingers on.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

So that's why those hours are insisted upon. Not because you have to tick the box and say, okay, four hours I've done. But when you put your head and heart and your effort and your thought, a mindless practice will have zero results.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

When your mind is devoted to it, when your feelings are devoted to it, when your analysis is going on, when your brain is at it, and your voice or in your instrument is at it, then it lingers on.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah. And it's also uh something I have struggled with is sometimes I know I need to practice, I'm I'm tired, I don't feel like it.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

But then actually, when you do sit down, yeah, you s you feel the transformation that happens and you start to feel so much better. And so it's giving yourself that space to know that you're not gonna know how you're gonna feel in half an hour, and it's so easy for our mind to tell us.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah, so Baba used to say this movement you have to do 500 times. So yeah, imagine 500 times. And he used to give me a counting thing, like once you sing it once, you push the button, it shows one like a counter. Like with for chanting, yeah, yeah. Like you have one of those things that you know the the the the security guards at a mall will have shopping count become football neck. So something like that. That had nine nine nine nine. Oh my god, that was so scary. Sometimes he would say, You have to do this half thousand times, like, oh god.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Yeah. And then he would leave and he would forget about it. And I would count one, two, three times, start crying. So, but you know, when you do something for 500 times, yeah, then you know what it does to you. The finish, the the the the effortlessness, the smoothness, the shine that you that you see in that movement after having done five hundred times is something that will not happen in 355 times.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

That's so interesting. And when you were asked to do 500 times, when you were sitting through it, like you were saying, you were crying sometimes at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Or I have a sense of what might happen if I do these 500 times, or did you were you just in a case of I don't want to do it? Like I'm sure it probably I was very scared of Baba, simple.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

I didn't have an option to think what if I don't know. I was very scared of Baba, I still am when it comes to music, otherwise I can now deal with him. But I hope he doesn't watch this podcast. So yeah, I was very scared of him as a child, and I would never even put my head and think that what if I don't. So anything he said, I was a very, very obedient child. Um, something that's becoming more and more rare as a parent, I can tell you that. So I was a very obedient, boringly obedient child, and I think that that helped me. I didn't question what I was asked to do, especially about music. If Baba said something, I would do it.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

You do it. And I also remember you saying that when you were younger that Guruji was a superhero to you.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Oh yeah. So it's too many things. If he's a superhero, he's a dad, he's a guru, he's someone I'm super scared of. He's someone I want to be like. Everything about him is what I want to be like. And it's absolutely inaccessible. I want his attention, I know that you know, I have to sing good for him to, you know, pay attention to me. Yeah. And I'm the youngest of the lot uh amongst his students, and I'm not as good. Some of them were so good, and you know, so I had to struggle, like uh, you know, to kind of find my place in the space that I was admiring so much. Yeah. So yeah, I think that was that was the real, real drive that I I had that uh, you know, that fire that I would I will do it. So as much as obedient as I was, I was very zidhi, very stubborn. And um But I think you need that fire, right? I mean that you have to if you want to get to it. You have to be the fire has to be stronger than your fear.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

And sometimes the fear uh makes the fire stronger.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

And what was it about Guruji that made him a superhero to you? Um so many things.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Um one is his discipline, right? Uh unbelievable discipline. I haven't seen a person who's so hardworking till date. Yeah. I'm not even 5% of how much hard work he still does at his age. It's incredible. His sense of discipline, his sense of perseverance is unbelievable, like unbelievable, unimaginable. Um, so that, of course. And uh so uh one has I mean, of course, uh she knows, but for the audiences, one has to understand that we didn't have the normal uh father and daughter relationship. Uh so the normal father and daughter would argue and the the daughter would answer back at times, not agree to certain things. But before we could kind of crack that equation of father and daughter, I think we became guru and disciple. So between a guru and a disciple, there's no disagreement. The guru says and the disciple does. So guru even doesn't even ask for a yes because it is a yes. Um, when the guru gives a command, one doesn't wait for a yes because it is understood that it is a yes. So um, in that kind of a dynamics, when you see your father and you see, oh my god, and then I used to go with him to the concerts and see people's admiration for him. And I would I was learning music, and when I was listening to him, I was thinking, I don't think I can ever sing like him. Oh wow. I'm learning that craft, I was not horrible at it, I'm okay at it. But his his music on that level was so inaccessible, it was so fantastic, it was so perfect, yeah, it was so unimaginably intricate yet attractive that I could never imagine that you know, no matter how much I learned from him, no matter how much I practice, I'll never be able to sing like him. Oh yeah. So all these things put together, he was one identity. About that identity, I loved everything about it. I wanted to be everything about him, but at the back of my mind I knew that I couldn't be none. Oh because it was so impossible. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's when you start, you know, hero worshipping. Yes, yeah, yeah. Is that this so this he's he's my dad, um, I'm his daughter, I'm learning from him, I see him all the time. I also see him do stuff which are, you know, very human and very normal and very ordinary as somebody in the family. Um but when he's with his music, it's like one superpower that you know almost he gets he's he's almost possessed.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

So that I think made him my superhero.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Wow, wow, that's incredible. Yeah. You need we need to I mean there isn't a name for something like you know.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Yeah, but it's very difficult to explain this uh this this aura that that you know I saw in him. Yeah. And that was that was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Wow. And what was it like learning? Because your first guru was your mother, right? Yeah. So what was that like learning how to- That was very different.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

That never felt like a guru. It always felt like mom.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

It always felt like, oh mum, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah. I can handle that. But that's probably exactly what was needed. Like, I mean, you wouldn't have known it at that time. Yeah, like what you were about to enter. So you needed to have that sort of warm.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yeah, yeah. She was always warm and cozy and would teach me things and say, yes, yes, nice, nice, and all that. Nice. Like mothers would be. So, um, so yeah, she was always she was a fun teacher to be around.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yeah, because I've seen some of her classes many years ago with young children. She's so good with children. She is amazing. Yeah, yeah. She's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

She's a mother to all children.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

So they would have fever and their parents would call Ma and say, She wants to have Chow Min at your place. She's not she's not well, she can't sing, but she wants to come and have children. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah, I've seen her with little ones on her lap. Yeah, and she's like tapping the the bee, the time cycle with them, and yeah, she is she's fantastic. Amazing. And so, how old were you when you started learning with um Ganparkashkosh and how was that experience?

SPEAKER_02 42:11

I was uh I was nine years old when I started um uh learning with Guruji. I don't call him Guruji. Conventionally, you're supposed to call him Guruji, but um, you know, he was the first outsider that I saw as a as a six-month-old. So when I was brought out of my home for the first time, my parents took me to his place.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Yeah, so generally the custom is you take the baby to a mandit.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Oh wow to a place of worship.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

To a temple. So um or to a place of worship, I mean whichever uh religion that is. But then I was I was taken to him. Uh and um so he's the first other person that I saw outside of my family. Wow. So uh my relationship with him was very sweet. I called him Gandadu. Gan is in music, and Dadu is granddad. So he was the granddad that was all about music. So I always called him Gandadu. But yes, he uh he's my he's formerly my my guru because there's a ritual that's called Gandabandan, where there's a thread, which is a sacred thread. So there's a there's a puja, there's a ritual that happens around that. And that thread is actually understood to be the umbilical cord. The biological umbilical cord is between the mother and the child, and this is the musical umbilical cord that is between the guru and the disciple. And so so the the guru would you know tie that that red sacred thread around your wrist, and that would mean that you know we are bound by music, we are connected by music, and um it's uh It's a it's a two-way responsibility to kind of take care of each other and together take care of the art form. Right. So that happened between me and Gandalu when I was nine years old. And um so of course I didn't understand the responsibility of it and the intensity, you know, the the the impact of for of a ritual like this. But yes, it happened and all the senior musicians were there, and that's how the custom goes. Senior musicians will have to be there at the at the ceremony as witness. Right. Because it's like inviting somebody in your family. Yeah, yeah. It's including someone as your uh you know next generation music. So that happened uh between me and Gandadu, and um then I started learning from him, but learning from him was also very very granddad grandchild equation. Yeah, yeah. I would go and and he he's one master musician, scholar, um you know, composer, instrumentalist, lyricist, and it's so difficult to describe him. He's a footballer, so he's like everything that one can you know try out in life. I don't know, in one lifetime, how can somebody do all that? But yes, so going to him was some days learning an instrumental composition, some days learning a tabla composition.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Some days learning a rag that I've never learnt, but composition I can learn, he would be okay with that. Yes, yes, yes, you could learn the composition rag, we can learn later. Because I was very young for some of the rags, which were you know very complex uh for my age for me to learn. But he would teach me compositions, and when you learn three, four compositions of a rag, you somehow have the basic instincts of that rag. I think he wanted to use that as a tool because I was also one of his youngest disciples, so you know he also was experimenting and so he would teach me one bhajan one day, one khayal composition one day, one tumri one day. Oh wow. So he was basically exposing me to this to this, you know, amazingly diverse space of Indian traditional music. So he was actually giving me like you know one bite of everything that's there in the platter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's wonderful. It was fascinating. Yeah. It was fascinating, and I wanted to do all of it.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

And I think that interest that hooked you in that hooked me in. Yeah, yeah. Because um, and and you've you've you you've released a documentary about him. Yes. Um that is available on YouTube to watch. So, you know, he was such an incredible human, um, in unbelievable and ever so inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Um, you know, unlike the traditional, you know, that how how the guru energies are generally, you know, that you know, it's out of the box, it's something very, very inaccessible. He was so warm and affectionate, and he was like, I don't know much. He was that kind of a person who would say, You all call me guru, but I don't think I have the ability to teach anyone of this. And we were like, Wow, what do we do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, he was that he was like that. He was he was so true and and humble and and normal for the extraordinary being that he was. It's just, you know, now that you know I I am a grown-up person, I see this world from a very different perspective. I think I value him so much more every day that being in this world, he never wanted to perform. Whereas he played all these instruments, he never wanted to be a performer. He was so much more interested to nurture the next generation and give all his time, his resources to to inculcate the interest for this music in the next generation, in the youngsters. He would spend all his time with the students or the legends of that time. He would bring them to Kolkata, will keep them at his home, feed them and their n entire entourage with you know all kinds of facilities that you stay here, you practice music here. Why? Because then there will be an environment and he will bring the youngsters into that environment, expose them to that.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

He will be the bridge. He would learn the compositions and pay these legends, and in turn, he would teach these compositions to his students for free. Right. He would never take money from his students. So it's like an angel. Yeah. Where do you find these people? They've stopped making such people, I think.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Hopefully, we'll have some more, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Yeah, I mean, he was just incredible. It's just it's so humbling, and I I really, really feel so lucky that I have the privilege of calling him my guru, of having him in my life uh as as a presence, as a constant presence. That's not only uh musically, you know, keeping me grounded, also as a human, it's every day teaching me what what is the value of life and how to appreciate that and how to appreciate everything around you and how to be open to to appreciating beautiful things in life and then find a connection to music and give it back to the society and and feel responsible for this art form and and to see that you know I am not the ultimate of it, I'm just uh a journey in between. So what has been handed down to me, I also have the responsibility to carry it forward and hand it down to the able hands of the next generation so that the flow of the art form stays, you know, stays consistent and and grows from strength to strength.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

What a massive gift that is. On so many so many levels and so many different angles. It's not like we were saying purely the just the music. There's like your relationship to life and and how you see life. Yes. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

And that's where guru, you know, the word means that someone who brings you from darkness to light. And that is beyond music. Yeah. I think music is how you say who you are. But life is what teaches you how to be who you are. And then you find the language. For me, music is the language to say who I am and how I'm evolving and how I'm becoming hopefully a better version of myself. Um, but that learning life and appreciating life and humanity and everything that's beautiful in life, and to appreciate that as a gift and that humility, that gratitude that comes along, you know, to feel like I've been chosen to be a small part of this beautiful creation. How massive that gift is. I think I think Gandalu teaches me that every day. Every day. Wow, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

If you're looking to develop your voice and understanding of North Indian vocal music, then I'm really excited to have released a new self-paced course, which is now available on the link below. The course has over five and a half hours of classes exploring Indian voice culture, introduction to time cycles and ragas, as well as a whole class exploring vocal patterns and the opportunities to practice with it. And if you've already started your journey and you're looking to be part of an incredible community of like-minded learners, as well as learning from me, then have a look at Scoranjali, my Indian vocal music school membership programme, where I teach over 30 live classes a year in addition to exercise classes and access to in person retreats and immersions. If you have any questions, please send me an email at hello at runch andoguspec.com or send me a direct message on Instagram. Thank you so much, and I look forward to speaking to you.