Kaushiki Chakrabarty Part 2 | Indian Music Journeys with Ranjana | S1E05

Part 2 to an incredible conversation where Kaushikiji talks about key lessons she's learnt from her Gurus, her journey of liberation and freedom through Pankh and some technical vocal guidance for vocal students.

[00:00] Lessons From Her Guru

[05:25] The Intersection of Music and Spirituality

[10:10] Redefining the Guru-Shishya Relationship

[15:10] Navigating Social Media and Individuality
Advice for the next generation of classical musicians facing the fast-paced, overwhelming digital age.

[23:00] Holistic Music Creation and the Journey to Pankh

[37:18] Vocal Care and Daily Rituals

[41:06] The Physics of Voice Projection & The Acoustic Tanpura

[45:15] Lifetime Inspirations & Desert Island Discs

[50:10] The Future of Ragas & Looking Ahead to 2026

🎵 Continue your journey with Ranjana:

Free 20 min class https://www.ranjanaghatak.com

🎓 Self-Paced Vocal Course – Introduction to Hindustani Vocal https://www.ranjanaghatak.com/vocalof...

🎶 Swaranjali – Ranjana's Vocal Membership Program https://www.ranjanaghatak.com/swaranjali

📸 Follow on Instagram: @ranjanaghatak

🎵 Continue your journey with Ranjana:

Free 20 min class https://www.ranjanaghatak.com

🎓 Self-Paced Vocal Course – Introduction to Hindustani Vocal https://www.ranjanaghatak.com/vocalofferings2/p/introduction-to-hindustani-vocal-self-paced-course

🎶 Swaranjali – Ranjana's Vocal Membership Program https://www.ranjanaghatak.com/swaranjali

📸 Follow on Instagram: @ranjanaghatak

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:25

So we were talking about your relationship with Guru Ganfra Kosh. So I had two things I was wondering about. Is there a piece of advice or a lesson or something that stays with you every day in terms of your training with Guruji? Of course, there's so many things, but is there a practical piece of advice or anything that comes to you when you uh from Gandalu? From Guruji. From Baba.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Too many. Too many. It's very difficult to choose. But one amongst many, one very important amongst many would be uh, as you rightly said, I think you mentioned it during the conversation, is lyrics. Uh the importance of lyrics in in Raga music. Um because at the end of the day, we vocalists we are we are singing a poetry, we're singing something that is that can be quite profound as a as a narrative. So it's important that with the mood of the rag and the intricacies and the techniques and everything, we also pay a lot of attention to the mood of the literature, yeah. Of the poetry that's being sung, and also let that poetry also choose the the narrative of the rag. So not only decide the uh you know the performance and the and the and the journey of it only based on the rag and its journey, but also the the the literature and its journey. I think that's very very important and that's something that needs a complete reorientation in in how you approach a performance. That I think is one thing that um that I'm trying. It's not easy, it's very, very tough. Uh, to keep the right balance of of the literature and the rag and the mood of it, and kind of merge it in a way that it it sounds very spontaneous and not kind of superimposed one into the other. So that's very important. One thing. The other thing, you know, he casually sometimes says things and then I I keep thinking about it forever. So he one day said, You're singing everything good, everything's okay, going good. Um rugs are correct the way you sing, they're all good. But I'm still waiting for you to become the rag. And it just struck me. Wow. Yeah. No pressure, no pressure on him. So he's just casually said that, and you and while he was just coming back from my home, I was just getting into the car and he said this and he left. And I was like, huh really? So yeah, so I I I really don't know what that journey would be like, but I am interested to know what becoming a rag would would feel like because one is um, you know, in singing a rag, you and the rag are two things, and you becoming a rag is going beyond the binary.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

So I think that's one uh journey that you know I was telling you Bhairavi, um I think that's that's somehow feels like it would be something like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Mmm.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

But I'm yet to I'm yet to get there. I'm yet to feel and experience that.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

And do you but do you feel like with Bahiravi that could be one of the rugs where you feel that merging and becoming like?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Uh if it happens with one rug, it'll happen with every rug. Right, yeah. Because it's it's becoming transparent. Yeah. And going out. It's absolutely becoming zero. It's it's about it's about me vanishing from the equation. So if that can happen, then it'll happen with every rug.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

So it's a it's a journey of life.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

More than a journey of music.

SPEAKER_04 4:30

And that's something you can't put a time or uh You can't.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

You just have to commit, you have to just you know, deep dive and see where it takes you.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

So yeah. And it takes immense sense of security for someone to to be ready to vanish in a rug. Because if you think of art in a beautiful painting, you don't see the painter. In a beautiful sculpture, you don't see the sculptor. So in a beautiful piece of music, you ideally should not see the musician. So the presence of the musician actually disrupts the journey of the music. Yeah. So it's like that. It's it's disappearing from disappearing as an I, yeah. From the space where R is speaking.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

So that's interesting because I was thinking about in terms of this music where it is so deeply connected to Indian spirituality. It is so do you feel like it is possible for this music to be a spiritual journey where you do disappear, where that that that kind of that becomes a part of the process, or does one need to have a spiritual practice outside of this as well? Very necessary.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Music in itself, it doesn't it doesn't teach you to do that.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

The spiritual journey is an independent journey. Right. If somebody is doing both together, um the both journeys will kind of be intertwined. Right. And they will have impact on each other and they will translate into the other other journey. But spiritual evolution is something evolving uh spiritually is something that automatically does not happen when you do music.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

No.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

I mean there's there's a there's an understanding, I think I'm I'm I'm pr I'm kind of uh questioning a a lot of uh common belief about Indian music, but I would this is my personal opinion that I don't think that uh music heals just like that.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

Heals the person the doer or the receiver or the listener?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

It's easier for the receiver to be healed. Right, yeah. It's not as easy for the doer to be healed. No, yeah. That healing is a is a different journey.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

So when music makes you feel spiritually elevated, that's again the receiver. It does not entail that the doer is also as much spiritually evolved, and that is why that music can, you know, spiritually move someone.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Someone in the sense the receiver. It's it does not entail that.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

That's that's a different judge. But but then if if I mean and uh it's probably incredibly rare, but for uh a musician to get to that place of embodying the rug, say we were just talking about will that not be a case of where they would one would have had to grow spiritually to get to that.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

It can be it might not be. But it might not be, right. It might not be.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

So it depends. It depends on the on the state of being of that person.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

Okay. Yeah. It's not easy. It's not easy to try.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

But you know, because it's not easy, it's so exciting to try. It is exciting to try. Because you know, as I think till a point in life you want to do things that will make you bigger. Yes. Yeah. That will make you look bigger, stronger. And then there comes a place in life where you know that becoming bigger is not the journey.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

No.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

It's it's a journey of of coming home. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's a journey of being one with everything else. So as much as you st you kind of tr start the journey by trying out to be to to stand out, to be different, to be bigger, to be stronger, to be louder, to be, you know, taller, whatever, you know, the all the superlatives. You finally realize the destination is not in standing out, the destination is is becoming one with everything else.

SPEAKER_04 9:07

Yeah. And becoming a vessel for it to be able to receive more of that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah. So you basically you you s you come back where you start from, which is which is in the nothingness, which is when you're nothing.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Because you're everything when you're nothing.

SPEAKER_04 9:27

I mean, I do find on a very basic level when I sit to practice, I have to. Uh there's a lot of ego eradication that needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

It it it it you can hear it in your voice, the way your voice sounds. Yeah. The texture of your voice. When it comes from a place of I don't know, I'm not anything, yeah. I don't have anything to prove. I'm not here to kind of show anything. I'm here to see, I'm here to experience. I'm here to become. That voice and this voice will be very different.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Very different, yeah, yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

And then everything follows would of course be different.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And in terms of being a guru, like we've spoken about, you are a guru.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I think my best I can be a teacher. But a guru is a different game.

SPEAKER_04 10:19

But I don't know, teacher doesn't quite fit either. I don't know then. I don't know what the word I don't know. What do your students I know you don't have many, but what in terms of it personal one-on-one time because of your um They call me whatever.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

They call me whatever. Many people call me Didi, many people call me auntie, some call me Guruma, I don't know. I mean whatever they call me, it's really I mean my son calls me Mum Mum, so yeah, it's it's the same equation when it comes to music. So um, yeah, and I I really I mean whatever they call me, they argue, they fight, they you know, they ask for, you know, me make for me to make food for them. So it's a very different equation.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Uh because the times have changed. I'm also a very different kind of a person. So um my friendship with my students uh is a far stronger equation than you know the the command-based equation that that generally works for a for a guru shishya kind of space. So I and Guru is a very, very huge responsibility. It's a selfless journey of becoming more and more empty. I don't know if I'm if that's even if I'm made for that. I really don't know. So I I think I'm a teacher at the best. Uh and I very much. Still doesn't feel like the right word somehow, but anyway. I teach very few students, very, very few of them. Yeah. But they're my kids and uh, you know, I they they belong to me, I feel responsible for them. And uh I think what is beautiful is I think so much more can be uh achieved in sharing music if the basic uh equation is based on uh on love and sharing and mutual respect and valuing each other. I think that's one thing that has been radically uh changing from the previous generations to our generation is is that it's not a hierarchy-based relationship.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask is how has your relationship with the people that you are teaching changed based on this generation?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

It's absolutely different. It's very, very different. When it comes to music, of course, I can see the when they're lost, I can see it in their eyes when they're in tears, I can see when they're in absolute admiration of of the music, I can see their their respect, I can see their love more than the respect, um, which is beautiful because I believe in love, I think, much more than respect. Because I think when you genuinely love someone or something, you automatically respect the space. But when you when you're taught to respect, you sometimes don't know how to love. It's like an additional layer, but when you love, every other equation works. Yeah. So I believe in love so much more. So you know, I I believe in giving a hug and getting a hug rather than somebody coming and touching my feet, it's scary for me. So, yeah, so I think with with the next generation, uh, the younger ones, I learned so much from them, the kind of thought process, how absolutely non-judgmental they are. It's incredible, it's just something I really truly truly admire. I wish I could be so open to differences and appreciating that and understanding that and respectfully disagree sometimes. Yeah. And to be authentic, to, you know, to not struggle with everything in life, to let life be, to choose to be um less insecure, less, you know, scared of everything that's going on in life. So I really, really admire a lot of lot of the qualities that they have.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

And um and still how grounded they are. If if you embrace them with love, they're so rooted, they're so, you know, grounded in tradition, they so believe in in your principles and ethics and way of looking at life. Maybe they will differ in certain ways, but they respect where you come from.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

So I think for them authenticity matters a lot. You being true is something that they almost demand.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

They don't want to, you know, know what you have heard and what you have uh learnt, they want to know what you feel and what you believe in, truly, truly. And I think I think appreciating them as they are has taught me a lot of things about how to communicate with them.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. And in terms of moving on from the stud the students that you've and people that you've been guiding and and teaching, the sort of the next generation of musicians that we're seeing now, of Indian classical musicians, how do you feel that they are having to think about the music for the time that we're in? And do you have any advice for them?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

See, we are in a very interesting time. Um I am a hopeless optimist, so I I will only have very, very optimistic views about everything. So it's a it's a changing time, and this has been going on for some time, and this will continue to be like this uh for a long time now because there's so many things that have been very, very radically because times are moving so fast, yeah, and we are having to learn so many things so quickly. Yeah, it's very, very difficult to go very, very deep into something at this moment because every two months, three months, you're having to learn a different thing. Yeah. A different way of looking at things, a different way of functioning, a different way of talking, a different way of presenting yourself, different skill. Absolutely. So so you are not in that time where you can concentrate in one thing and forget about all the rest.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

So no matter how much we judge this generation saying that okay, they're always on Facebook and Instagram and doing this and that, and when do they have the time to 16 hours of practice? Yeah, you know, close your doors and forget about everything, and when are you doing your first chilla and things like that, which is absolutely romantic, I understand, and I value from the generation that I am. I totally value where they're coming from, but we also have to practically think that you know, um we as a generation and the next ones, we are facing such amazing challenges, and it's so overwhelming at times, it's very, very difficult.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

So um my suggestion to them uh is first of all, you know, first I want to tell them that you know I see you, I hear you totally, and uh I'm with you as much as I can. Uh the only thing I would I would um suggest is that all these platforms where we are having to be, it's kind of pushing us to be very similar to each other. Whereas we know that um individuality is our only strength, especially when we are into a creative art form, because creative art form is only creative and art if yours is not like anybody else's. Otherwise, it's not creative, it's repetitive. Yes, yes. So trends and algorithms and numbers, while all of that is very, very valuable. I would only want to suggest that don't lose your uniqueness, your authenticity, your truths, your identity uh in the quest of you know going um for the numbers and the algorithms and the trends. So work on that because going forward, there was a time when there was or cut, there was a time when Facebook was the biggest thing, now maybe Instagram is the biggest thing, or TikTok is the next thing, but you are your only thing. You know, these platforms will come and go, and you will struggle to fit into their algorithms as they keep on changing. But one thing that will help you sail through all these changes is knowing who you are, right? And if you know who you are and you can translate that into your art form, that is your biggest strength. You may be very, very different from everybody else, and it's a good news, you know. If you're different, hey, I'm with you totally, because then you're a good news. If you're like many other people, then you are a number.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

If you're not like anybody else, you are an entity, you are an identity. So please work on your identity, whatever time that takes, take that time out from the madness, external madness, and that is seeping into the internal madness as well. So for creative artists, I think it's very important to uh to shut the noise out for some time at least on a daily basis, and see what you hear when you when you listen to what's inside of you. Because outside the noise is very loud and it's always changing. How long will you try to fit in when everything is changing? Yeah, you will have to constantly change if you're if you're only uh have to fit in. So, as much as you'll have to fit in, I understand you have to use these tools, but use these tools for what? To tell the story that you are, and which has to be different from all other stories that are around.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

So it's very challenging, you know, in a time when the noise outside was not as loud, it was easy to work on the story that that you are and that I am and that she is. But now it's becoming more and more challenging. But unfortunately, that's the only way to sail through. That's the only way to be. You can only be you, I can only be me. So if I try to be you, I will miserably fail. Rather than trying that, I think I can be a lesser, but a lesser me is better than you know me trying to become you. So that individuality, that authenticity, that having the courage to stand apart and say, yes, maybe I'm not doing it like everybody else, but this is who I am, this is what I believe in. Yeah, I think staying connected to that inner voice is is becoming more and more important in this loud noise audio.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

Yeah, I think that's such such incredible, brilliant advice, and then it's so easy to get drowned out by the noise, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, because it's actually very, very loud.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

It's very loud, and then I I notice that the days where I'm less on my phone, um or if I'm listening to things that are more focused, like a podcast or something, then I'm more tapped in. Yeah. But if I'm just scrolling or just you know, it's you know, so but we all do that.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I mean, I mean, I'm not saint, it doesn't mean that I don't I don't scroll like doom scrolling is one of the things that we all do. I do as well, and I know I'm guilty of that as well because it's so tempting at times. But just to be aware, you know, uh one good thing about our generation is we started off, we were working on our On the basics, when there was no noise, fortunately, only two television channels, those were boring programs, nothing interesting there, and didn't have any other device, any other entertainment, some series, cassettes, that's all. And that was also you know chosen by our parents, so we only knew the kind of songs that were coming home, yeah, and that our parents were choosing for us. So anything else existed, we had no idea. So that was great in a way that by the time we were kind of ready to to kind of face the world and you know start performing and start bringing what we've been working on, that is when the noise started, you know, happening. When we were in our very, very preparatory time, noises were less.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

But with your generation, the younger ones, I can totally understand. It's it's very tough. But um, you know, it's I think it's worth the effort.

SPEAKER_04 22:57

Yeah, definitely. And with you know, we see we're starting to see some of Rishit's journey, and which is so so wonderful to to witness.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

He's he's trying, we all are trying. Yeah, we all are uh trying really hard. It's it's like a balancing act.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

Yeah, no definitely.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Some days are easy, some days are very tough.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

But you know, with with with Rishit and his generation, um what excites you about that generation that they are doing differently to us? Of course they have different challenges like you spoke about, but it are the things that you you think are you know could can take them really forward?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think um uh what I really admire in them is is their interest for you know, so when when they're singing, they're also trying to play the piano. They're also trying to produce their own track.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

They're also trying to, you know, uh see what rhythm pattern, what goes. So it's not only you know, when I go to a studio, I have everything ready, they're just waiting for my voice. So sometimes, you know, in the last so many years, why I kind of changed the way I function slightly in the last couple of years is I was thinking that okay, I'm just a voice, I'm just like a machine. So you prepare everything, I come, it's my voice, and that's that's where it ends. Then I'm not a creative head, I'm not a creative heart, I'm not a creative input into the song apart from the voice. Right. So that sometimes is you know uh is a little restrictive. Why I started composing, why I started writing my lyrics, why I started, you know, uh producing my own things, yeah, is because you know, what about my vision? What about how I see my music, where I see my voice? Every the perspective of the song has been set by someone else's uh creativity, someone else's idea. I just have to fit in to an extent it was great, but beyond a point I started feeling what if I design a song for myself, how will that sound? What would that designing be? If I write a song for myself, what would that song be? Will it be something similar to what I've been doing or will it be very different?

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So, and will I try for a tune which pushes me to project my voice in a different way? To make my voice sound slightly different. So, what kind of genre would I choose? Would it be classical? Would it not be classical? So I think that's what this generation is doing.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Yeah.

unknown 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

They're trying to make it their song, they write it, they compose it, they uh you know produce it, they arrange it, they play the instruments. Whatever that is, it's one journey that's that's like a that's a more holistic journey, that's a more holistic way of looking at creativity.

SPEAKER_04 25:58

Yeah. And production is what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

So that's like a more 360-degree panoramic kind of a of a per perspective to to a piece of music. Yeah. And that ownership to that music is very different.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah, after having produced my own own things, I know, you know, I have a very different kind of a an emotional connect with with all those songs. Yeah. It feels like my own in a very different way. Everything I've sung is my own song. Yeah. But this feels like a very different thing. So that's one thing that I think with the younger generation, especially Richard's generation, of course, the exposure to this is also very important, which they had very early on in life. I didn't have that. So um, so that exposure, listening to different kinds of music, to understand soundscape, to understand the journey of a composition, how the composition moves, all these things uh, you know, of course, it it demands that kind of a of an exposure that this generation has. But again, in the middle of all this, knowing who you are is very important.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

Very important. So, I mean, and also this connects to punk. Yeah, congratulations, congratulations to for that huge release this year. Thank you. Um, and so what led you to creating that? You know, was there something was it a a a group of moments or was it something that happened that you made you feel like okay, this is what I want to be doing?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Um, for last many years I have been struggling creatively a lot.

SPEAKER_04 27:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Something that the YouTube clips and the Instagram posts don't tell that I've been there's been a lot of inner conflict, a lot of confusion, a lot of soul searching, a lot of um you know uh questioning myself and my choices and uh thinking how I would what I would want to change, what I would want to uh not do or do going forward in my space of music. So I think one thing, of course, I was talking about that you know, that becoming just a voice was one thing that was really really bothering me.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

And I was also thinking that um classical music demands a lot of technical um brilliance, a lot of practice for that and all that. So but there's a limit to how much technique, how much skill, how much speed, how much uh you know complexities in rhythm, complexities in in sargams and thans that you that you want to do, because you know I'm I'm one of those singers who's known for the you know um the speed and the tan and the sargams and the and the and the uh you know rhythmic complexities and all that. But there's a limit to that, okay, and there's also fatigue to that, okay, creative fatigue. Right. I'm not saying that when you hear you feel, oh god, no, I don't want to hear it again. Not that. But when you're turning into only that one aspect of your creativity, there's a fatigue that you know you also want to balance it out, you want to also want to pacify that. Yeah, you also want to feel your equilibrium and then take the next flight.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

So what is it that I was trying to land on? I was just trying to see that okay, this this technical journey is beautiful, and the journey of a rad, which is also very meditative in its own way, very, you know, internal, kind of a dialogue thing, that's also beautiful. But what else? And I think in classical music, um, predominantly that's what I've been doing all my life. I was craving for more emotional connect with my music. Okay, not technical, not spiritual, but just emotional connect to feel more human in my music, to smile with my song, to cry with my song, to feel certain emotions that are very integral to my being, to my existence. I was thinking that if I ha if my heart wants to cry, what's that song? If my heart wants to smile, what's that song? What's that song gonna be like for me? So I think that's what I was trying to search. Right. And I just wanted to be more human. I wanted my music to be more humane.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

And the tradition, the legacy of classical music is so rich that sometimes it demands you to be a superhuman.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

I just wanted my very ordinary, normal human self to speak through my music.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

And I didn't know how to find that.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

And I was searching for that. That makes sense in terms of the how the music is.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

It's very, it's very it's it's almost like a it's almost godly. Yeah. It's so rich, it's so intricate, it's so out of the box, it's so uh intense, um, it's so divine, yeah, that almost you have to kind of work on superlatives only. Yeah. And I was missing my normal self.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

I was just missing the flawed, normal, clumsy, goofy girl that I am.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

And I wanted a a a creative expression output for that. So would you say that was your guiding light when you were creating the music?

SPEAKER_00 31:43

I was trying to I was not creating the music, uh, I was actually trying to find that in me. Right. Because before I knew who I am, I learned who the musician is. Right. Because that journey of knowing musically who I am started so early in life that that soul searching for who I am started much late.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

So I wanted to find who I am, and I had to take off the layers of what music and its conditioning has taught me to be.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

And I wanted to go to the very, very rock bottom of who I am.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

And I realized that the conditioning, the society, the legacy, the tradition, um, you know, the lineage, the family, everything demanded me to be a certain kind. But underneath all that, I'm none.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

I'm just a very normal, ordinary girl. Who has done so many things, who has, you know, messed up so many things, who would have loved to do so many things but didn't get a chance to do all that, and who has missed out on doing so many things. So I felt the pain, I felt the pleasure, I felt, you know, the FOMO, I felt, you know, it would have been lovely to do certain things, but now I can't. I also felt that okay, whatever I've missed out, whatever I can do now, let's do that.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

So it was very, very liberating that journey. It was like it was cathartic.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

And from that, when I wanted to sing all of that, I think punk happened.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

So I did not want to make an album. It kind of matched where you are.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

So I was on a journey already of soul searching, of finding who I am. Forget music, just me. Because music is a very, very integral and important part of my life, but it's a part of my life. Yeah. And that realization came very, very late. Because this this line of thinking was almost, you know, was like a sin for me. That how can music be a part of my life? Music is everything, it's all of it. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Because that's how I grew up.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

Yeah, yeah. To to be able to get to be immersed in it. Yeah, so that bubble was all I knew.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah. So for me to break that bubble and come out of it and see that bubble from a distance and still value it so much. Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

I think that happened very late. And when I started looking at that bubble from a distance, then I started seeing, okay, so this is me if I'm not inside the bubble.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

And because that being is also so much seeped into music, there's music to that also, that existence, which is not in the bubble, which is not in the legacy, which is not in the tradition. But those uh, you know, those instincts are ingrained in me. So when I started to think who I am and and sing it, that's when punk happened. So I am a I'm I'm partially a you know producer, I'm a I'm a songwriter, I'm also, you know, some parts I've composed, I've produced this album, this is about my life. I laugh and I cry and I do everything that a human uh expression would feel free to do, and all of that put together as punk.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

Wow, that's so wow. So I mean, I feel like you've answered so many questions in one in terms of what has you know, what are you loving about the music making process at the moment in your life with punk as well as everything that you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 35:32

I think I'm just loving uh the fact that when if I ask myself who I am, I my answer is I'm a singer. Yeah, not an Indian classical singer or a Khayal singer or a Tumri singer. I think um in my capacity I'm just trying to push the boundaries as much as possible. I'm trying to talk about my life through music. And whatever that music is, I'm just getting to do that. Whether it's punk, whether it's um my classical concerts, whether it's everything experimental that I'm that I'm doing at the moment, I'm working on a few. So it just opened up a horizon for me where I'm free to take my flight, and it's an endless sky, and and it's just there are endless possibilities, and there's so much that one can do and it's so inspiring and so motivating. And yet, you know, when the grounding is very very strong, when you've done what it takes, then I think uh then it's very spontaneous. It's not coming from a place of you know struggling or proving a point. No, it's just coming from a place of letting me be. And flowing with it, and flowing with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just and just letting things that that kind of energy take over, and wherever it takes me, I'm just I think I'm finally ready and happy um to take my leap of faith. And wherever that takes me, I I say this leap of faith a lot of times because it's it's um Ostad Zakir Senji, Uncle G's line, he he kept on telling this to me. I want to see your leap of faith.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

I think I think finally, finally I'm I'm happy that I'm on that journey. That's wonderful. Wow. Yeah. Um, and actually, well, this year has been, you know, you have been literally all over the world. So on a practical level, what are the some of the things that you do to take care of your voice?

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Uh I'm doing it mostly wrong. Uh I know what I'm supposed to do, but I'm not being able to do all of that. Um, less talking. I've been talking for so long now. But yes, less talking is one thing that also gives me some silence, some rest for my voice, some rest for my mind. Um journaling is something that I do regularly. I should take care of my health, um, which I'm not being able to do properly. Um, food is something that I'm little vigilant about. Um very simple, very uh, you know, homemade, the mist, otherwise very light. So when you're traveling, you eat more lighter food. More lighter food. And um I'm slightly lactose intolerant, so so that I have this acid reflux thing, so no fried, no caffeine. So I'm off tea and coffee for a very long time for years now. So yeah, so as much as possible. So these are the the the physical factors of you're taking steam because uh different weather pollution, uh I'm allergic to dust. So all that um is the the physiological part of it. And I think um meditating, when I say meditating, I just make it very simple. Like I think I practice silence, that's that's what it is for me. Uh nothing super complicated. Uh and um just trying to empty it out as much as possible because as performers, as traveling musicians, we're exposed to very, very different kinds of energies all the time. And um I think I'm just getting old. My god.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah, we're sensitive to it. It's beautiful to um, you know, especially when you're doing music, your energy spaces are so open and vulnerable and exposed. So I think a lot of cleansing needs to happen on that level as well, which um sometimes is helpful if you believe in in you have been practicing a particular system, it works differently for different people. Yeah, but yeah, that basically coming back to your zero as much as possible before you head towards another up and down Tom Cita view.

SPEAKER_04 39:52

Would you say that is uh something meditation or being in silence is something that is a non-negotiable like what is there is there something that you do every day regardless of where you are in the world?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yeah, so um my practice wherever I am, which is mostly singing my sa, my my bass note, and little bit of here and there, which gives me the fluidity uh of my voice, and the breath control is something that's crucial. Um that's one thing that I'll do wherever I'm wherever I am in the world. I would do my journaling every day and I would practice silence every day wherever I am, and I'll call home and talk to my son.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

Oh mate. I know I remember when you were in London um what I think it was the concert of the Barbican, I think that was maybe two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:46

And I I stayed with you that night, and the following morning she had much less sleep than I did, and you were on the phone to reach it, I remember, and I was like, So that is how you're doing that.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Wherever I am in the world, these are the four things that I will do no matter what.

SPEAKER_04 41:04

Wow, amazing. And in terms of actually voice projection, can you speak a little bit about the correct voice projection for Indian singing?

SPEAKER_00 41:14

The natural voice projection with the deepest breathing. Right. Is uh is if I have to define the Indian way of projecting your voice. When I say Indian, I don't necessarily mean the playback singing projection.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Yeah, the film.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Because that's very different. Yeah. Um because that has a different narrative to follow. The music is not its own narrative. The music follows something, some another story. Right. So depending on what that story is, the voice has to sound, the song has to sound certain kind.

SPEAKER_04 41:53

Okay, yeah, I didn't think of that.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

And uh so music is not independent there.

SPEAKER_04 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Music is dependent on another story. On the story, yeah. So um, but for independent music, Indian traditional independent music, the voice, when you take the deepest breath, which means your posture has to be certain kind, your diaphragm has to be open, your um shoulder has to be stretched, your um your spinal cord will have to be kind of straight and erect and comfortably, and then when you take the deepest breaths through your mouth, and then you project your voice, and then keep that in a uniform sustain. So it's not ah it's like uh it's not ah, it's not from here, it's from here. So which is very airy, very fluid, very uh, very uh I should say it's like you know when you when you um we I think we discussed this, you know, it's painting with air. So when you see a brush stroke, a master's brush stroke is the smoothest.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

So when you when if I try to do a brush stroke, it'll be like this. So that's a uh voice. When it's not smooth, when it's not flowy, when it's not in one stroke. Yeah. So whatever brush that is, if you have a master painter's brush stroke, it'll be very balanced and smooth.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

So the depth of the breath makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

So the depth of the breath and how you exhale. You don't exhale in a blow. No, you exhale it in a uniform sustain. So the sustain has to be like a smooth. So the smoother it is, the more flexible and fluid it is, it has more possibilities.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

If it's hard. Then a hard thing has to break for it to take a different shape.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Whereas a soft thing can be turned and twisted for it to take any shape that you want. That's what you want to do with your voice.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

And singing with the tanpura allows that softness to come out, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:13

We all think that you know electronic tanpura to this. Apple um has given us so much uh facilities. Aye tanpura, aye tamapura, this, that, the other. These are very convenient. It's in your phone, it's something that you always hold. And that's more important than your kidney and liver and heart. Um, but no, the sympathetic vibration of an acoustic tanpura is necessary. What it does to your voice, what it does to your posture, what it does to your texture of voice, what it does to your projection is unparalleled. Of course, this is great for a support, but an acoustic tanpura is an acoustic tanpura. There's nothing that can substitute. One thinks that a drone is not that important, you know what is it doing? Um, but it's like the singing bowl when you chant. You can't do that with a I singing bowl pro. No, it's not gonna have the same that's not gonna happen. When you have to meditate and chant, you need the singing bowl.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Yeah, amazing. Um, so just we'll end with some inspiration, your inspiration. We've obviously spoken about your relationship with your gurus. When it comes to musicians that have inspired you, is there a performance that changed you? What was it and why? Oh god, there's been so many, my god. So such a hard question, I know.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

So many. One Milat Khan Sab's performance uh at Sangeethus Academy Festival, one Bhim Saint Joshi performance um at Doverlin Music Conference, one that I've heard on YouTube, but it has blown my mind and I've I've cried to death. That's an Aliba Khan Sab's Shri Alap. Oh my god, I'm having goosebumps. And um one Keshori Amunkarji's um Basant Bahar that I always go to, one that I'm I'm talking about Vherevi, one that um again Keshori ji's Babul Mura Nayhar Chuto is like, oh my god, I'm dying. I cried last night also listening to that. That um one Gurjuri Tori uh recording of Babas in Pakistan that is like the the killer Gurjuri Tori of the world. One Ahir Lalit performance live of Babas. Um Rashid Khan Sab's uh Lalit. Oh my god, how I love it.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

Oh god, how many I mean I said one but that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

So many I can go on and on and on and on because you know it's it's like a lifetime of if I have to weave my entire lifetime into moments, these will be the moments.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

Yeah, wow. And with the ragas, so at the moment you're exploring and you know on a journey with Bheiravi.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:05

Is there are there any other ragas that you're exploring that you haven't performed yet?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yes, uh, I haven't performed uh Kosi Kanada. I'm preparing, I guess. Um Jajavanti I have not performed as much, but this time in Europe I did. And I really fell in love with the rag all over again. I've always very scared of that rag. It's very it's very nuanced and complex um in its own way. It's it sounds really smooth, but on the surface it's very smooth. But that smoothness of the surface takes a lifetime of mastery for someone to get. So that's one rag that I'm genuinely working on. And um yeah, so Ahidlalit is one rag that I'm thinking that I'll I'll sing soon.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

So it's a morning rag. It's a morning rag. So we need some morning concerts. Yeah, I have some in January, so nice, amazing. We need some in the UK. Um and so uh the BBC has had this long-standing program called Desert Island Discs, and it I think it started in the early 1940s, and I'm again cutting it and being very mean, but the the the programme basically they interview different artists, writers, celebrities, and they ask them that so the the question is if you were stranded on a desert island and you had to select five pieces of music, and you could only have those five pieces of music on the desert island, and you could have one book. Okay, what five pieces of music would you choose? And what book would you choose?

SPEAKER_00 48:45

The book is Untitred Soul without Michael Singer. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Um so that's the book. Uh and if I have to choose five pieces of music, one would be my son's because I can't live without his voice. So whatever he sings, one piece of music is that and that's topmost priority. Um apart from that, that shree has to be one of them. That Sri Alap of Oliver Khan Sabs. I think it's it's just so profound. It's so profound. That will have to be one. If you uh since you're asking me today, that Babul Mora has to be one in that barevi conversation. I was tripping over. Kishranyamunkar. Kishranyamunkar, yeah. So that's three and uh two more. Oh wow. Uh let me think. One Bhega Makhtar or Shubhagurtur. If I can take both, then I'm I I I exhaust my list. I'm okay with that. One Bhegamakhtar, um uh Tumri, one Shubhagurtu Tumri.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

Nice. I mean you have one more space.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

No.

SPEAKER_04 49:47

That's five. Is that five?

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Uh no, I think nah. One is Rishit, one is that Shri, one is Babul Murak.

SPEAKER_04 49:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

And Bhagamakhtar and Shubhagur. Okay. And five.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

I wish I had more.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

I mean I mean in the program it does have eight.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Okay, I'm fine with five.

SPEAKER_04 50:03

Well, you're fine with five, okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Because if you give me eight alas for ten, I'm very greedy then.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

That's so funny. Um and if you could time travel into the future, what would make you feel that the ragas are safe?

SPEAKER_00 50:27

I think they are safe already. They are safe. Yeah. I think I think we have to feel safe with them.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

And that the younger generation can make sure that they do that.

SPEAKER_04 50:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Because the ragas they are a living, breathing journey. Yeah, they are not. Yeah, they're not supposed to be the way they are now in hundred years to be. No, because they were not like this hundred years back.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

So the point is not to keep them safe.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

No.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

The point is to let them evolve in their own pace and direction. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So the ragas will be safe. We are no one to make them safe. I think they have given us the safety that we totally bank on. So they will be safe. It's for us to find our safety in that. So that we stay relevant with them. So if we grow with them, we will find our safety in them. So I think that is something that we have to ingrain in our in our next generation. That if you look for your safety, look for it in the in the tradition. In the traditional music. Everything who you are, who you were, and who you can be can be found in the arts of this country. It's it's so rich. It is so rich.

SPEAKER_04 51:39

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I feel like I could speak to you for another few days. Yes. Will you please come back?

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Yeah, I will.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Or I will come back here. I would love to. It's been incredible. I wanna incredible. I want to also explore Tumri's. Oh yeah, oh my God. I wanna also like I was thinking about you know your story of um meeting Anapurna Devi and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Endless, endless stories. But yes, I um before we end, I just want to say that, you know, uh one is you know, talking about my my my guidances, my gurus, my inspirations uh from the field of music. But I think I'm at a point in life where I think everything in life is music and has a music to it. So every thought, every journey, every um ideology, every inspiration, every principle, every story has a music. So um I think everybody who has even beyond teaching me music or being there in the musical space, there has been so many people who have enriched, you know, this piece of life. And whatever that translates into, whatever music that translates into, I will be over in like ever, ever, ever indebted to all of them. And you know, for being there in the journey and for enhancing, enriching this journey. So every every piece of music that I I sing will be a tribute to each one uh who has taught me life, who has uh exposed me to a perspective of life that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to understand or grasp. I'm just I'm just so grateful to everything that life has given me. It's been a total like you know an absolute blessing. And I'm so so grateful to everything in life because it's just uh it has just given me all the music that I needed to feel.

SPEAKER_04 53:45

Oh, that's so wonderful. And do you have some music coming out?

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Yeah, plenty of them. I I suddenly realized after punk that the gap between my albums are mostly 10 to 12 years. So I realized that I need to come up with more music. I'm either too busy with concerts or too lazy to do anything else.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

So um yeah, I think 2026 is gonna be a lot of new uh music releases, some classical, some not so classical, but uh but I promise that these are music that I believe in. Every piece of music that I would come up with. They can be very, very diverse, but that's who we are. We are so many people in one body and mind. Yeah. So I think I will try and uh in whatever time I have in my life left with me, I'll try to uh sing everything that I am and try to see how far that goes.

SPEAKER_04 54:44

Amazing. Well, we look forward to hearing those releases and I'm looking forward as well. Yeah, and uh I will definitely have another conversation.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

Oh yeah, and thank you before we start, before we before we end. I'm just so so happy to connect with you on a very very different show. I know this has to be most sane conversation of our lifetime. Only you knew. Yeah, and I think we both didn't know that we could be so mature and proper and sane, but you are a beautiful host. I think this to you this a you know, like a big compliment and a lot of congratulations for this beautiful endeavour. I wish you all the very, very best, and may the most amazing musicians come on your podcast and you fly high and have your own puck.

SPEAKER_04 55:34

Thank you, thank you. Lots of love, lots of love, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. If you're looking to develop your voice and understanding of North Indian vocal music, then I'm really excited to have released a new self-paced course, which is now available on the link below. The course has over five and a half hours of classes exploring Indian voice culture, introduction to time cycles and ragas, as well as a whole class exploring vocal patterns and the opportunity to practice with it. And if you've already started your journey and you're looking to be part of an incredible community of like-minded learners, as well as learning from me, then have a look at Swaranjali, my Indian vocal music school membership programme, where I teach over 30 live classes a year in addition to exercise classes and access to in person retreats and immersions. If you have any questions, please send me an email at hello at Ranchanagusak.com or send me a direct message on Instagram. Thank you so much, and I look forward to speaking to you.