The Vernon Spring | Indian Music Journeys with Ranjana | S1E06

Step into the creative world of The Vernon Spring in this intimate conversation exploring the artistry behind his work as a polymath, pianist, composer and producer. From his distinctive approach to composition and improvisation to the influences that shape his sound, which includes his exploration of Indian vocal music. This episode offers a unique window into the mind of one of contemporary music’s most thoughtful and genre-defying artists. Expect reflections on creativity, collaboration and the ideas that continue to inspire his evolving practice.

00:01:44 - Early Childhood & Discovering the Piano

00:05:02 - Influences from His Father's Eclectic Record Collection

00:09:06 - The Story & Meaning Behind the Name "The Vernon Spring"

00:12:43 - Encountering Indian Music & The Ritual of Vocal Practice

00:18:24 - Technology, Mindful Phone Use, and Creativity 

00:21:44 - Reconnecting with Real Life

00:25:19 - Juggling Family, Production, and Slower Creative Cycles

00:29:33 - Creative Process Behind the Albums 

00:32:34 - Milestone Gigs (Queen Elizabeth Hall) & Reflecting on Past Collaborations

🎵 Continue your journey with Ranjana:

Free 20 min class https://www.ranjanaghatak.com

🎓 Self-Paced Vocal Course – Introduction to Hindustani Vocal https://www.ranjanaghatak.com/vocalofferings2/p/introduction-to-hindustani-vocal-self-paced-course

🎶 Swaranjali – Ranjana's Vocal Membership Program https://www.ranjanaghatak.com/swaranjali

📸 Follow on Instagram: @ranjanaghatak

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome to today's episode. I'm really excited to be sharing an interview with an incredible pianist, producer, and composer, Sam Best, who goes under the artist's name The Vernon Spring. I was lucky to have met Sam over 10 years ago, and I was deeply touched by the way he approaches both life and music in a deeply sensitive and intuitive way. He has worked with a wide range of musicians, including being a longtime collaborator with Amy Winehouse, collaborating with Kano, Matthew Herbert, he has his own record label, Limo Limo Records, and now producing and touring his solo works. If you don't know his music already, definitely go and have a listen. And in recent years, he has expressed an interest in understanding the Indian, North Indian vocal form more. And so through that, I have shared some lessons with him to help him understand the form and to develop a vocal practice, which has been an incredible honour to witness and be a part of. And I thought it would be really interesting to hear more about his artist's journey and what has led him to where he is now. And so I look forward to sharing this, and I would love to hear how you found it and if you had any questions. Take care. Okay, so welcome, Sam. Thank you for joining. Um I wanted to have a conversation with you about music and your approach to music and your influences. Um I've always loved hearing you play, uh, playing live and listening to your recordings. Um so I think one of the first questions I was thinking of is you I I read that you had a lot of music in your home growing up and you started playing when you were about 10. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

So I started playing kind of when I was five, was what was was the story that I was what that I used to tell, or that when people ask, I think that is true. My my parents, well, the the story that I was told is that when I was about three, there was a sort of toy drum kit in the house, you know, like just some basic toy drum kit. And my dad or my mum, I can't remember who, like, felt that I was being a bit music, you know, like kind of playing in time, or I don't know, showing some signs of musicality. But they I think they couldn't they felt the the drum kit felt too expensive and maybe too big for a three-year-old or whatever at the time, or and um so but I think a friend was offering a piano for really cheap. Um that must like this is all kind of blurring into one, that must have happened a bit later because it was at around the age of five that this piano arrived in our house, um, which was the same piano that I had until I was in my mid-teens, by which point I was like completely obsessed with music. Um, it was quite a rickety old piano. I like every day when I was a teenager, I'd have to sort of fix it a little bit. The pedal would always like stop working, and then you'd have to really kind of um get underneath it and sort of uh get it to work again. But yeah, that was the piano that I had since I was five, but I really didn't have a connection to music at that stage, didn't feel like my my a personal connection. My my parents, I remember they did have to really cajole me into kind of just doing a basic bit of practice to sort of keep me with it. I was like, you know, a lot of other young kids, I just wanted to play football. I I was more interested in football and and other things really. But then when I was 11, which is probably what you had read or remembered saying, um, I switched teachers. Um my dad saw this advert in our local music shop um for uh someone was advertising like jazz lessons, uh local musician. This guy, Phil Dawson, who was yeah, my first teacher who introduced me to improvisation, he was he is uh a great jazz guitarist, he's actually really a guitarist, but but I knew enough keyboards to sort of um get me started, and something clicked in me from the first lesson, really. Like he showed me, I remember him showing me the pentatonic scale. And whereas up until that point, everything was about notation, you know, and kind of um I still I'm not a very good person with notation. It's not really I couldn't it wasn't it's not really my way with music. Um yeah, in my first lesson there was no notation, you know, it was just about showing me this pentatonic scale and saying, you know, play around, do what you want with it. Um and it just opened up this whole universe for me because yeah, my really my upbringing in in the home was was my my dad's record collection was very eclectic, but it was at the heart of it was was I suppose black American music, like jazz music, soul music, um that was like his deepest passion, I I feel, even though he also loved Beethoven and Bob Dylan and like Johnny Mitchell and loads of other things, and um and you know he'd but he was the sort of person that would go through obsessive periods of listening to different people, um, and that was quite diverse. Um, you know, sometimes quite avant-garde, classical music, sometimes it was like Berthold Brecht and like Kurt Weil and like theatre music, and sometimes it was Dylan, like he would listen to the whole Dylan back catalogue, and often it was jazz and and soul he knew a lot about. Um but anyway, I feel like when I was shown this pentatonic scale and and given permission to just sort of mess around with with music from using my ears, I if I I suddenly had access to all this stuff that was almost waiting in the wings for me to that was already in me, I think, but I didn't I didn't have a way into it through notation and this other way that I was learning. Um, even though that other way of learning definitely set a foundation from which I could do something with a pentatonic scale.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

But it was really from that point where something clicked in me and my parents didn't have to ask me anymore to practice, I just wanted to do it, you know, and and and did it more and more and more, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, so because when what what always has struck me when you play, you have such a defined style, like it's so when you hear your music, you know it's you, which is such a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Oh wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

And so do you feel like I mean, of course it's an always it's an evolving thing, our expression, but do you feel like from that first lesson that that kind of like you were saying you had all this music that was already there that just needed to be expressed? Do you feel that connection to your expression was like ready from a young age, or it's something that's continuously moving?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Oh, it's difficult to say, but I definitely I mean, you know, I was it took a it took a long time for me to just get to grips with some basic things, you know. So I don't I but it definitely connected me to something that was like a an innate passion or something, you know, like a sense of something that I was um yeah, deeply connected to um from which you just you just keep turning up to that. And but yeah, it's not it's amazing. A few people have said that to me recently, that you know, that something comes on and they know it's me, you know, and and that's such an incredible compliment for me. I don't know, growing up with the background that I had where I I always just hero-worshipped people part part of the thing of part of the admiration of people like I don't know, any of my childhood heroes like you know, Miles Davis or Nina Simone or any anybody that you could mention really, it's yeah, that they're they have such a sort of distilled voice, you know, that they that you that it's so sort of personal to them and they develop such a kind of close relationship to music. Um I don't know, it's quite a mysterious thing, isn't it? But it's but but yeah, it's incredible that you know as soon as someone comes on that has reached those sorts of levels, it's it's you know instantly that it's them, even though it could be two saxophone players that are playing the same instrument, you just know oh that's John Coltrane or that's Wayne Shorter. Yeah, um, even though the tools are very similar. Um and so yeah, I mean I'm I'm not you know, I'm I I personally still feel like I'm right at the beginning, so it seems like it but it's it's nice that other people uh noticing that in when they hear me, or like they that they can sort of hear a voice developing anyway.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Um yeah amazing. And your artist name, how did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Kind of through accident and just life developing, but there is some rhyme or reason to it in the in that um so yeah, some strange serendipitous things. Um my so Vernon oh here um so I don't know if you can see that. So so my granddad on my dad's side, my dad's dad was an author. Um a I think it's fair to say a failed author. He wasn't particularly successful, but he did get a few books published. Um so yeah, and his name was Vernon. Um I don't know what short one that R is for now, actually, is it? I I should know that. I think it's but anyway, I should know that. But I always knew him as Vernon, so but he died when I was three, so I didn't really have a relationship with him. But um he um my dad's middle name was also Vernon, um, and my middle name is Vernon, so it's kind of passed down through all the male um side of my family. So there's that, but then my mum was also born in um uh she's actually so her parents are German, but um uh after the Second World War they led left Germany and had this opportunity to go to go to Canada and sort of start a new life. And she was born on this in this small village called Vernon in in British Columbia in in Canada. Oh yeah, she was born in this village called Vernon, and then you know my dad's you know, dad was called Vernon, and so I always had that as a sort of a significant name that linked me to both my parents.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Um, and then I always loved names, like band names that um that depicted that that seemed to sort of evoke a scene. Like I like like I I think originally Arcade Fire was called the Arcade Fire. I think if you look at like early versions, early records that they released, even some of their later records, I think sometimes it still says the arcade fire, even though everyone thinks of now as just arcade fire as their name. But that was always one of my favourite band names because I it I could see a scene in my mind, you know, it was like um I could see this arcade burning, and that it yeah, I don't know, it had this sort of poetic feeling to it that it um um evoked a feeling but also a sense of story and and mystery. And I so I was sort of interested in in that in in finding a name that had that kind of a feeling. And then I guess there's sort of multiple layers to the meaning of spring, it's like renewal, new beginnings, you know, but also has a political slant because it can be linked to revolution and and you know, a ch a change uh in a radical change in society or something. Um obviously we had the Arab Spring, and you know I was in my early twenties, I guess, when that was happening, and and it that all fed into it in a way. Um, but it's so in my mind, it's not people often call me Vernon Spring. It's not meant to be a name, it's meant to be a kind of event. It's meant to be like this imaginary event uh in an imaginary place where new things are happening, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

But I don't know, like I probably shouldn't say so. My people should make their own thing their own people, but in my mind, it's it it it yeah, it it has all those kind of aspects. It's meant it's and it's not meant to be a person, really, it's meant to be um a coming together of something, um, something happening. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Okay, amazing. I did not know that. That's super interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh so Indian music, that's something that has connected us. Um and so I'd love to know is that something that you've listened to from when you were younger? How has it influenced or impacted you as a musician in your day-to-day world? Because I know it's something that we talk about quite a lot, so I'd just love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah, so I guess again, I had some introduction to it as a kid, but not much through my dad. Um, he de in one of his obsessive phases, he definitely had a Nazrat Fateh Ale Khan obsession.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah, definitely. And you know, got several several of his records, and that was what was constantly playing in the house. Like whenever he went through these phases, he would often play music very loud. He had this office at the top of the house, and it would just be kind of bellowing through the house. And um, you know, so it was sort of yeah, that was always happening. Um and I did listen to Nasrat Bati Ali Khan a lot at that point as well. Um, I often kind of you know tuned in with what my dad and he was yeah, he was intentionally filtering it through to me, really. He was he was consciously trying to kind of educate me, I think. Um and yeah, so there was that. But other than that, nothing really comes to mind. Um, honestly, I feel like when when it came to us um exploring singing together and you being my singing teacher, um it cut that kind of evolved from us meeting through making music in a way, and me having an interest in singing, but but not really finding a connection, kind of similar to what I was saying before. Like finding the right teacher is so pivotal. Um, you know, me finding that that guy when um Phil Dawson when I was 11 really opened up so much for me. And I feel like it's been quite similar, honestly, with you in terms of with singing, even though singing is all I think singing honestly will forever be for me something that I have a um I don't know what the right word is, but uh a different relationship to than uh than with the piano. It's like something that I'm I feel like I'm always at the beginning with singing and also because I've been having well yeah, but I get you, I get you, yeah. There's something about it it's different. There's something about it. I think also because I've you know I've had some health issues. I had it's very stop starty, and I feel like I'm always starting from the from the start, even though everything that we've been doing together has been so helpful. But I guess the what really drew me, what what I felt an immediate connection with um with our lessons is this um well not multiple things, but it's this this feeling that it's connected to an ancient tradition um of using of connecting with the voice as a as a human being. Um it's I love the ritualistic aspect of it, you know, that that and I like the that you know when we did that two-day singing retreat, um it was you know, we s the fact the fact that you can sing the same note for half an hour is really up my street, basically. Um I really love that kind of that that sense of discipline and and also doing it together. I mean I when we started lessons, I did start with with uh with that. You know, I'm I don't remember like me being really into the fact that I just want to sing you want to just sing sar, yeah. I just want to sing sar for like let's just do that for half a year, and then you you you're wanting to go at a bit more of a pace, which is fair enough. Um, and I sort of you know, obviously ultimately completely trust that. But I d and yeah, but I loved that aspect of it. Um that it that it feels very connected to health within your body and I don't know, and spirituality. And I remember you saying in that two week two-day thing that that your guru you know says that you don't if you really study singing, you don't need other you don't need another religious context. You this this could be your religion, you know, this can be the place where you yeah, have a relationship with the divine, basically, you know, which is which is not my experience of singing so far. I feel like I'm way at the start, you know. But it's but I guess that also even just having contact with those kinds of concepts is something that connects to a longing within myself, um, and yeah, something that I'm really fascinated by and something that I didn't really have such a direct contact uh or form for when when I in my education. So it's linking into my musicianship in general, um having you know, being in contact with that kind of a tradition tradition, and then I suppose, yeah, it's wonderful for me as well, in the sense that it's um I feel in a new space of unknown again with music, you know, because I I I know so little about Indian music um in terms of the scales and the way of approaching music, or so many different aspects of it, and but that that um it's an exciting feeling of just you know learning again um from from a from yeah from from something where I'm right at the right at the start, and also that it's this I don't know, there seems to be this mixture of almost like Western classical music and improvisational music, you know, that there's improvisation involved, but it's still very structured, yeah um and phenomenally technically challenging, and you know, so it's uh and it's a different form of that than you know, jazz in in many ways is that as well to in the American context, you know, it's improvised but also very technically challenging, and you know, but Indian music is is a different, or the sort of Indian music that we've been studying is a different form of that. Um so that's fascinating to me as well. Um, yeah, that's probably a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Yeah, amazing, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, super interesting. And it kind of leads on to another conversation that we've had about habits and how phones and technology impact us in terms of like mood, creativity, musicianship, sleep, all of these things. And I know that you have spoken about being very disciplined, like you've become very disciplined about phone use and all of those things. Was that something that you found quite easy to do, or was it just from a place of like I just want to feel better? Or like how did that how do you think that's a good idea?

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Um I suppose I've always had that a little bit to be honest, like this kind of um I've always been a trelt the need to have discipline in my life. Um, I think because I developed such a kind of strong relationship with music as at a young age, where you have this understanding that you want to spend a lot of time with your instrument and you want want to spend a lot of time with music and that you're on a that you're on a journey with that that will be central to your whole life, and so you you that comes with a sort of sense of responsibility that you want to cultivate the right conditions for that to thrive. Um, so there's always that's always part of the negotiation for me, is like how how to create those conditions. Um and phones are obviously uh phones, you know. Sersha, my partner, was was telling me that she saw this prince video. Uh I'll be paraphrase paraphrasing him, but he he he says something like this. Obviously, this interview was it was that he was accepting some sort of award, as he often was. Um and but he's talking about technology, and obviously, this is pre-phones. He would have been this would have been in the 80s, I think.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

90s. And no, pre-smartphones for sure. And but he was just saying basically, you know, you you want to you want to use technology, not to let technology use you, kind of thing. And I think that's quite a simple way of putting it. It's like phones and are an amazing resource if they if it's used, if it serves you. But at a time when we are very vulnerable, I think, to becoming distracted and very vulnerable to mental health issues and you know, um, feeling alienated from ourselves, from nature, from society, you know, we're very vulnerable, I think, to all of these things. And in that context of vulnerability, phones can be very unhelpful because they can take you deeper into that, really. So, yeah, I think it's as with anything in life, it's how it's how you relate to it which uh defines whether whether it's um you know useful in the moment or not. Um so I only have myself to blame.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah, but that's it's an interest that's an interesting approach where you're approaching it from this place of how can I create the best conditions for my music? Like that makes complete sense, and that will of course then feed into it. I I've definitely had periods where even though I've known that, I've still gone down the hole of using my phone too much and then feeling awful the next day. Um I joined the library recently, which I'm very excited about. Amazing, um I'm not really TV. Yeah. I I just love physical books.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

And I don't have that much storage. You know, I moved a few years ago and I had to I just couldn't keep all of my physical books. I and I just don't enjoy reading books on a on a Kindle. So you know, and I just think going back to those things that we've had, like watches and books and cassettes and Walkman's and all of these things.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

I just And just that experience of actually going to a library as well, you know. Walking into that kind of an institution, feeling the energy of other people reading and this this this this this whole kind of crucible of learning. It just I just think, yeah, I love it, man. There's a great library in in um in Brighton. Um that I I I keep saying to myself I want to go there once a week and I never do. Um but maybe it's you know maybe that maybe these are things that are to come when I don't have such young kids, you know, I mean there's a bit more space around things, but but I do, yeah, I totally agree. Those are those are the experiences that we need to prioritize, I think. But like being in real life, you know, going to a space where people are doing things together. Um and also, like you say, like having less stuff, you know, like you know, borrowing a book and reading it and then giving it back to a communal thing rather than doing what I do, which Serge always takes piss out of me. You know, I've got all these books that I've sort of half read that sometimes I've bought for myself, but often they're gifted and they're you know maybe again I'll get to it at some point, but yeah, it's it what you're talking about really is a way of being, isn't it? It's a way of being in the world that feels more connected, that has more chance for more chance for chance as well, more chance for turning up and seeing a book that you didn't think you were gonna encounter and less time just on your phone, kind of digesting everything. I can't even really digest information so well from a screen, I find. So I really have to sort of vary it a lot. Um and yeah, that sounds that sounds great. But yeah, I think, you know, broadly really in the mornings I try to just protect, I I try not to look at my phone at all, really. If I can if I can if I can avoid it, I'll start every day. I try to start every day with some singing when I'm feeling well enough.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Then some piano. Um, you know, just time in the playground without any computers with all my equipment off. Um and then maybe uh, you know, late morning I'll I'll look at my phone and then you know, then the rest of the day is over.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah. That's that sounds like the name of a song. Yeah, that's that's a nice way to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, it's um it's a I think it's a really freeing and an important notion as music makers, you know, to be in a in a place where you're just messing around, you know, where it's free from judgment and free from you know, expectation and results, and you're just spending time with something that is as innately yours as anything else is in the world, you know. It's like this is this is your playground just to explore, you know. Um, which yeah, it's so important in a culture where it's often not the case, there's often lots of expectations that were piling on ourselves or that we've inherited from the world around us, um, yeah, or the way that we were educated, you know, lots of things that you have to unlearn. And I think one of the ways that we unlearn is by just playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

And do you feel like with the practices that you have and the discipline you have, I was gonna ask also about your, you know, you have a fat you have a beautiful family and you have your work and playing and producing, like, how do you balance all of that?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Um, it's it's it's kind of often I feel like I'm I'm you know, it's a long arc, you're just sort of in it for a while, you're not quite sure how you're holding all these things together. But I suppose, yeah, that having a routine when I'm when I'm in the studio phase, when I'm not touring and stuff, having a routine helps with that because it means I can but I really still feel the need to develop as a musician, you know. So so I can only do that if I have that playground time. And I try to have that in the mornings before everything else kicks in because I do have a lot of other responsibilities to my family, but also um to my music making, to you know, to projects that are already ongoing that involve me, my other sides of my work that away from instruments um you know that involve computers and producing and you know, mixing and um other types of music making. And I often will do that more like in the afternoon. But I found as my as we've had more kids and they're getting older and there's like the the the level of needs diversifies and becomes more complex, I feel like my cycles are a little bit slower, you know. It's got it's like I'm working at on multiple things at the same time um over a longer period of time, and then and then but then sometimes many of those things come to fruition at a similar point, and they'll be, you know, I don't know, I've not I haven't quite worked it out, but um kind of you know, in that at the moment, you know, there's like three or four or five different projects that are in my mind and I'm trying to keep organized um and you know in and around family life and also trying to maintain my playground time and like learning and but on in all honesty, it's like there's a lot of longing involved in all of that because I I wish I had three of myself, you know. There's you know, I I kind of feel like I'm scratching the surface sometimes of a lot of these things, but that's why. But I I also think I I find myself in a particular position in music making where it is in the at the meeting point of a lot of different disciplines, right? Um, you know, being an instrumentalist, but also being a composer and being a producer and being a collaborator and being part of a community, and all of these things take time and uh nurturing and um holding in different ways, and so that that is my particular place, I think. And so I sort of there are sort of particularly, I don't know, there's certain kind of cathartic moments that happen where I feel like all these things come together. In making a record or in presenting a show where you know you're working with a band and you're playing your music and you're able to perform and kind of dig a bit deeper into all of those things. I still feel like I'm right at the start. I haven't done that many shows as The Vernon Springs, so but I've had a taste of what that feels like, and in those moments, it does feel like um this all of this world that you're trying to hold together has a has a centralized way of communicating itself through yeah, through through this medium, whether it's like a show or a or a piece of music, and but yeah, in leading into into those moments, often it is just a bit chaotic, and you're um um trying to keep everything, you're trying to juggle everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

And for me, yeah, and it probably maybe adds to the whole thing, because I don't think there's ever a perfect amount of time, you know, when people are doing so many things at the same time. But um, and then I was gonna so I was curious with your playground time, is that when you created your album, or is that at a separate time?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Well, they often overlap, you know, that's the thing. I'll be I'll be starting my day and I'll just be playing piano. You know, all of my records uh do uh start with the piano, really, um, or the vast majority of them. Um and yeah, I'll be in the playgrounds, I'll be messing around, I'll or just you know, trying to get better at playing a scale. And you know, then something will happen. Something will it'll be like, oh, you know, I I'll feel something, I suppose. You know, you feel something, oh that feels nice, or that's that that's that's you're drawn to something in what's happening all of a sudden, and then before you know it, you're you're writing something, and then before you know it, you're recording something, and then before you know it, you're no longer at the piano, you're looking at a computer screen and you're kind of structuring that recording, and that is often the way it is, you know. You you know you're you're yeah, you're kind of um just going with what happens, um, and um yeah, that's that's often how it happens for me. Um and it's been in different different at different times, like with my first album, A Plane Over Woods, it was a very fast process in the end. I think I was collecting things for a while, but then actually the way that those things were recorded and completed was very in the moment, you know. Often I was writing, like for instance, the title track A Plane Over Woods. I remember that was written in the first pandemic, but it was written in my studio, and I think I was practicing scales, and the beginning of that piece is a scale, it's like duh duh. This was going up a major scale.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Um and so it was I was probably practicing E-flat major scale, and then and then I don't know, I heard a chord, and I and that led on to one thing, and then and then I remember writing that whole piece in in the morning, um, and then recording it that same morning, and then mixing it in the afternoon, and then it was that's what's on here, you know, and that that's changed now a lot, like these days, like with this new album that I've just released, it was much more um episodic in the way that I worked on it, and um like more layers of production, more yeah, which involved uh more um in-depth mixing process and stuff. Um so yeah, it it's it's evolved. Um, but yeah, but in both senses, it it starts with the piano when when I'm in that yeah, sort of trying to trying to uh protect the playground.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Um I love the uh the in well of all the albums that this recent album that I came to see you play at King's Place, and I've been listening to it as well. I just love the way it opens, it just just takes you into this other world straight away.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I saw today today you're playing at Quinn Lisbeth Hall.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

I know, yeah, I can't believe it. I really can't believe it. I didn't think I really didn't see that coming so soon in this, you know, this period where I've started to do shows really for the first time um with the Vernon Spring, you know, going back to my upbringing with my dad and and my mum and but you know, a lot of my a lot of my music edu musical education came from my my my dad's interest in in passion for music. And we often went to the South Bank. I you know, when I was a kid, you know, we go to go to see the jazz festival or go and see classical concerts there, and it's really one of these places that I kind of has a sense of reverence for me. Like I go there, you know. I've definitely many times thought, oh man, I don't know if I'll ever play there, kind of thing. And yeah, so it's it is a bit of a milestone for me to get to that point um and um yeah, be doing it. It's um it's I I still don't quite believe it to honestly. Oh yeah, yeah, it's really great.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Super exciting.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah, congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Um and you played with so many incredible musicians, Amy Winehouse and so many other, and you've produced with other artists. Are there any I mean it's such such a difficult question? What were some of the kind of key things that you learned from that process of working with with other musicians? And to end, like, are there any is there any musical style or musician that you would still love to work with?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Oh yeah. Um definitely. Um I mean, yeah, speaking broadly, I feel very fortunate to have had the journey that I've had in music. I'm 39 now, um, I'm no sprint chicken, but I guess I'm somewhere, you know, I'm in in the middle of my life. Um and but from a pretty young age was exposed to lots of different types of collaborations. Um, and when I was growing up, I was always used to being the young one, you know, like this this kid.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

This kid in the crew, um, and was really luck lucky to have like older role models all the time and people I was learning from all the time. Like, you know, before I started working fully like professionally, you know, I had amazing examples growing up in London of you know people who are a decade older than me but who were so inspiring. Um and um, but yeah, then in terms of people I've collaborated with, I feel yeah, so fortunate to have been on this path where I've all I've always been working on my own music, but then I've also always been working as a uh a pianist and a collaborator, firstly like mostly as a pianist, but then gradually as a co-producer and and or producer and mix mixing as part of production and stuff. And you always learn something, you know, from entering somebody else's universe. Um and I also there's something so beautiful about being at this at the service of somebody else's music, um, and um there's something so moving about them wanting you to be part of their music making, you know. Um but yeah, it's also opened me into so many different um worlds, you know. Obviously, like with Amy, but then Kano like working in in grime and hip-hop, and um having one of the things I always love about that is that you know you're on the tour bus and everyone's playing music, you're you're learning so much just from being in that culture and um immersing yourself in these different worlds. Um and as someone who's always had yeah, very well, relatively broad interests in in music. Um I've always loved you know, as a kid, I loved Wu Tang Clang and Most Deaf, and I I always I've always loved hip-hop and um and pop music, like great pop music, I've always loved, you know, with Brian Wilson dying recently, even listening a bit more to Beach Boys again, and just you know, that was really part of my education for my dad as well. Like like Motown and like incredible pop music and the sound of that, the energy energy of that, the feeling of that, how that music is put together has always fascinated me. So being able to be part of that as a musician and uh you know, um exposed to pop culture as well as jazz, as well as you know, sometimes I've done some pseudo-classical things which have been the most frightening experiences because I'm not I'm not into notation. I literally it's not for me, man. I literally just getting through those shows and hoping that I don't faint, basically. It's just like I just it's not I'm not good, I'm not good at it. Uh I'm really not, it's not for me. Um, I'm furthest away from my uh um it's not even being out of your comfort zone, it's actually just not what my calling is.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Yeah, no, no, I I have the same thing with just just having stuff written down. I've had lyrics written down before in concerts, and I it's like my brain and my voice just don't catch up.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

I can't.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

It's just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

I'm so far away from yeah, from being able to be useful, I feel. I'm just getting through and hopefully I don't completely but any even those experiences you learn from in so many different ways, even just as a human being, you know, being being in different social environments and having to kind of navigate different um dynamics and all of that kind of thing. And also starting a community of uh of musicians and being on so many different sides of things, running a small record label, but being signed, understanding what it means to be on the other side of that. And I don't know, so many different things I'm appre I I'm grateful for. Um but yeah, I'm not sure I've I'm not sure I've given like some particularly interesting anecdotes. So there probably could have been good anecdotes to share, but it's it's it's been great to sort of have this to be getting to this point now where I'm I I'm majority majoritively, or whatever the word is, most of the time is I'm focusing on my own music these days, um and but also my own music or the music of my community, um which feels like my own music in a way, you know, it's like it feels like we're there's a whole there's a there's a group of us and and we're working on music together, and yeah, um sometimes it's by myself, sometimes it's you know working on one of their songs, but um, you know, it all feels like part of the same thing to me.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

But yeah, that's only really relatively recently, and I'm still working, I'm still get asked to do things through you know, long-standing relationships that I have that I love to do, um, where I am sort of thought in either as a co-producer or as as a musician, and um I still you know love to be asked um to do that. Um but I suppose I'm more selective with with what that is now. And um yeah, um anyway, I feel like I'm I'm sort of um I don't know, bumbling a bit now.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

So I was fine to know it was.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Oh, it's not and your final question was who yeah, I mean as there's people I'd I'd I'd love to work with. I'm always kind of um yeah, drawn to I don't know. Um I don't know if I want to say I'm the sort of person where I kind of feel like I'm gonna jinx it if I say it. So but I'm just gonna say that there are people that I definitely don't jinx it, don't you give me a call. So if you're watching and you think it might be you, please just call me up.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Yeah, just just telepathically just tune in to Sam.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

I mean send it out.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Send it out.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

There's so many people making amazing music in the world, you know, and um and I love collaborating. Um, but yeah, um I hope that continues. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

I'm sure it will. I'm sure it will. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

It's so lovely to talk to you and find out more about your process and your journey. And uh I look forward to seeing you at the Queen Elizabeth Hall as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Oh, bless you.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

I nearly bought my ticket straight away. Oh and are there any other concerts that you've got coming up?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Well, one with you, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Oh yeah, this one.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Uh yeah, 17th of July uh in Brighton. I don't know when you're when when you're airing this podcast, probably after that point. But um but yeah, um, I'm starting a residency in Brighton once once uh a season. So one one in summer, one in autumn, yeah, quarterly basically. So if you're ever in Brighton, um if you know that will be happening. Um and it's nice to be starting something in Brighton as my it's my relatively new hometown. Um, and I hope it will be a way that uh of building more of a community here as well. Um and yeah, then there's more touring happening. I'm going to Japan um for for five shows um in the autumn. And then around this Queen Elizabeth Hall date, there's some other European dates. Um, so yeah, I'm just every time a new gig comes in, I just I'm so happy.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

Oh amazing.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I'm really like, yeah, it's a dream come true to be doing regular shows of of this music and being able to get go have the opportunity to go deeper into it. Um it really is um an opportunity that I'm so grateful for and hope to make the most of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Amazing. Thank you. Um we'll definitely have to have another chat and um good luck with the rest of your live shows and albums moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Thank you. Thanks for asking me to do this.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Take care. If you're looking to develop your voice and understanding of North Indian vocal music, then I'm really excited to have released a new self-paced course, which is now available on the link below. The course has over five and a half hours of classes exploring Indian voice culture, introduction to time cycles and ragas, as well as a whole class exploring vocal patterns and the opportunity to practice with it. And if you've already started your journey and you're looking to be part of an incredible community of like-minded learners, as well as learning from me, then have a look at Squiranjali, my Indian vocal music school membership program, where I teach over 30 live classes a year, in addition to exercise classes and access to in person retreats and immersions. If you have any questions, please send me an email at hello at Ranjanagasak.com or send me a direct message on Instagram. Thank you so much, and I look forward to speaking to you.