Grand Craft Bend: Ryan Atagi, Head Brewer at Crux Fermentation Project

In this episode, we meet Crux Fermentation Project's head brewer, Ryan Atagi. While Japanese lagers (or rice lagers) are gaining steam, Atagi's Japanese heritage brings something extra to Crux's Bochi Bochi lager and an array of other beers including a new dark Japanese lager he created in conjunction with OSU called OSSU.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Thanks for listening to Grandcraft Bend, Central Oregon's premier podcast exploring everything that's Grand Crafted from beer and beyond, with your host, who's a Cicerone, a certified cider professional, and the author of Oregon Breweries, Brian Yeager. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Remax Key Properties, a family-owned full-service real estate brokerage specializing in residential, luxury, commercial, new construction, and ranch and land properties. Their new state-of-the-art facility at 42 Greenwood Avenue is a modern collaborative space and the new home of the Bend Don't Break Podcast Recording Studio.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Hello and welcome to Grandcraft Bend. I am Brian, and I'm very excited to be joined by Cruxbrower Ryan Otagi. How are you doing, bud?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Good, Brian. Nice to finally meet you.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Exactly. We've we've emailed for a while, we've we've worked on projects, but it takes the invisible medium of a podcast to get us face to face.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah, it's great. It's finally, it's nice to meet the guy behind all the cool events and Ben too. So thanks for having me on board.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

I love doing them because just they're they're fun, you know, like all the old school reasons why people go out, have some beers, hang out at the at a third place, that is, you know, all the various pubs. Crux, obviously, you know, when when people especially when people have friends visiting from out of town, where should we take them? Crux.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Knee-jerk, instant, top of mind spot.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, we always appreciate that. But yeah, it seems like even getting off the plane sometimes in Redmond, you hear people asking where they're gonna go, they they're they're talking about crux, which is really cool, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Exactly. And in a region with, you know, more than two dozen breweries, yeah. Uh what's your what's your sort of elevator pitch? How what do you think the reason for that is?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Uh our lawn, obviously. Our sunsets, um, definitely I like to say our beer, you know, people like the variety. Um uh it's it's definitely a place where you can go and take your kids and and uh not necessarily let them completely go free range, but it is it is an option to help them let the kids run around and play while the parents enjoy a beer. And uh yeah, it's it's been a staple in the in the Ben community for quite a while now, and so I think uh we've done right this whole time, and yeah, I think people people appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

And as you mentioned, for for quite a while, uh the brewery itself opened in 2012. How long have you been with Crux for?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Uh I've been with Crux for five years, and I've been the head brewer for the last four years. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Excellent. Well, you already know this, but I'm gonna mention this uh for the audience. Obviously, there's there's scores of beer styles. IPA is far and away the most popular craft beer style today.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

You gotta have an IPA for sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

But it feels like from an industry, insider, participant, watcher, man, people have been talking about oh, loggers are you know, craft logger is right on the precipice. We're we're entering the year of the logger. It's a beautiful time.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

But that means that for the first decade, that was not quite true. Right. It really took a long time. But we are unequivocally in that moment. Yep. And within that realm, you know, it I think people would be forgiven for maybe not even understanding what the difference is between a lager and an ale, because obviously within the beer kingdom, those are the two phylum, right? You have everything is either broken down to an ale or a lager. I kind of like to point out that I feel like certain things should be a third separate thing. Uh, I think wild ales don't fit a lot of the criteria of ales. And then we have cold IPA that deliberately blurs the line between ale and lager, but certainly within the predominant styles of that lager category, we've got your pilsners, your American light lagers, Mexican lager. A lot of them have just have the word lager in them. And I don't even know if I could articulate why, but I know that I had an aha moment, which was the year 20, it was either 2018 or 19. But I was at a very large beer festival down in Southern California. Yeah. And with and the way they do beer festivals down there, I almost wish maybe I could emulate that here in Oregon, but I'm just not allowed to. Here you have to charge a token or a ticket for a beer sample in California and a few other states. It's unlimited sampling, which has its pros and cons.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Right. That's how it was back in the day. I remember in Idaho, there was a few of them that they were just you pay and then you just go to town. Exactly. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

But the thing that struck me, I'm at that event, and there's every color and stripe and shape and size of IPA available and a lot of other things. But I had, as I was going through, I just sort of stumbled on a few different rice lagers, aka Japanese lagers, and I really instantly fell in love. It's not like, you know, if you if you've been drinking beer for any amount of time, the odds of you having had a a Sapparo or a Kieran extra dry or something are fantastic. If you've ever gone out to virtually any type of Asian restaurant, that's what you are presented with. But it was that moment that I realized how much I love this particular style. And I would love to hear your thoughts on why. What makes a rice lager so new? I mean, it's it's still emerging. And and Crux has bocci bocci. Uh, if you've been uh the head brewer there for five years, is bocci bocci actually five years old at this point?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, it was it was kind of my brainchild. Yeah. So I'm yeah, I'm really proud with what we've done with the beer. But um yeah, it's it was 2020, uh 2019.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

So since we're talking about it and uh we happen to have one available, should we break it all?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

This is a can of bochi bochi being opened. Can't talk about bochi bochi within the biggest. No, you you cannot. Um, I didn't do a these glasses that I have here are more similar to a champagne flute. Oh, that's ill-prepared for that foam, but we'll we'll get to it.

unknown 6:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Here, I'm now I learned here, like we can switch glasses. I did a much better job.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

German slowports. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

I'll do that off. Uh so yeah, let's let's what what did what was your background with it? What made you think I want to introduce this style to the crux lineup and and why is it done so very well for you guys?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

So yeah, I've I've been brewing beer since 2000, professionally since 2013. I started in Boise, Idaho at PayA Brewing Company.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Pay It, love it.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, yeah. So we did logers. We did quite a few lagers there too. Our our North Fork was one of our number one selling beers. So uh we had I had some experience making lagers, and obviously Crux did too. Uh, we make a really nice pilsner. Um, and I always have wanted to make some type of Japanese lager. Um, my first craft Japanese beer that I was exposed to was actually um Rogues Moramoto Ale. I don't know if you remember the day, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Brilliant beer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

So I just I love that beer. I thought it was cool. I liked the concept of it, and no one ever did it again, really.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Right. It was a one-off, it was an anomaly within the industry for sure. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

And my heritage, I'm half Japanese, so it was always I wanted to kind of pay homage to that and do a Japanese rice lager, but pay it, we didn't have the equipment or the, you know, we didn't, I don't know, I couldn't sell anybody on the idea. And then fast forward to 2019 at Crux when I started working there, um our brew house that was at our pub, it has the ability, had the ability to do what's called a cereal mash. So cereal mashes is when you can take these grains that need to be boiled, and uh you can you can boil them and then transfer them back into the mash tun and then cool them down or whatever you need to do and add other grain to it so you can access the starches that are in those grains. So rice is one of those grains that you have to boil it basically to get access to those starches so you can convert them into sugar. So we were able to do that at the pub. So that was one of the ideas that I pitched to the pub.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

But does malted barley not also need to be boiled to access the starches really?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

So you can lower temperature, yeah. You can get to that gelatinization temperature much lower, like at 50 degrees Celsius, I think is when it starts working. Rice is like 98 to 100 degrees Celsius, so you're basically boiling it. Um, so we were able to do that at the pub. Uh, it was one of the RD brews that uh Grant McFarn, uh my assistant brewmaster, and I we talked about and we came up with the recipe and um worked it out there and it worked out really well. Um it became probably it was usually either the number one beer at the pub or within the top five for our customers. So we thought definitely, oh, we got something going on here. This is great. And the marketing manager at the time approached me and asked if if I wanted to try to release this beer and work with him on the label and and make make it uh come to production. And I was like, totally, thumbs up, you know. I was like, let's totally, let's do this. And um Cam O'Connor was the head brewer at the time, came to me and told me Wait, is Cam not the oh now he's the brew master now.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

I thought you were telling me that he was no longer with Crusty. Yeah, he's moved up as Larry. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah, so though yeah, that'll hold things. So at the time when Cam was the the um the head brewer, he he tasked me with making the um recipe from the pub and scale it up to the production site. So I took the recipe and we I worked out in the system how to do it, and then we brewed it, and it came out exactly the same. So um and Cam and Larry were impressed with that, and um, I think that's why I got the job. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

As I'm drinking this beer, the aroma is certainly different than your average American light lager. It definitely has a more floral bouquet to it. And the flavor itself is a little bit different, uh, but it has just this delicate nature that is easy to fall in love with.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

And yet, at least certainly within the craft beer side, rice and corn were were pejoratives. They were they were these adjuncts that were completely slammed. Why did we do that for so long?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

I don't know, you know, it's it's getting to be more of a it's kind of a popular adjunct to use. You know, you hear about these pre-prohibition loggers that are they're advertising that they're using corn, you know, and and rice and and these Japanese lagers and things. And I think it's just it's an ingredient, like you said, it got kind of poo-pooed on because the big guys used it as a way to save money, you know. But um it is a it's a wonderful ingredient, both fat, corn, and rice, if you use it correctly and the right amounts. It changes that the profile of the beer just enough that it makes it stand out from your regular everyday pilsner or lagers, American lagers. So yeah, I don't know. You know, it's just one of those things. I think we were so focused on what is craft that they try to get away from whatever macro uh breweries were doing, you know, as far away as you could.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

It's just funny because they spent so long throwing the entire kitchen sink into recipes, but avoiding two really great grains for brewing with.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

So do you think that nationwide we have moved out of that? Do you think that there are still some people? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

I think so. I think, yeah, I mean, if if it's a good ingredient and it makes good beer and it makes that beer unique, I think people are definitely you know trying to figure it out what to do. And I and I think we've gotten to the point too now where we've gone through the smoothie sours and the the really heavy fruited IPAs. We're going back to basics, and this is definitely one of those those uh ingredients that's kind of getting back to basics, you know, use forever. So I think people are gonna try to start using those a little bit more. I I'd hope.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

But there is one other huge point of distinction between maybe how the mega breweries use rice and corn for that matter, and the smaller breweries like Crux. Walk us through what kind of rice you use and how you use it versus giant steel tubs of rice syrup, yeah, yeah, like you see going into. Right. You know, and it's funny because with their Super Bowl commercials, they were even making fun of oh, we use rice, you use corn, whatever. Yeah, but they were definitely not, I don't I don't think they had maybe they did, maybe they had a giant cereal cooker, but I think they were just using rice exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

They were using the easiest process they can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

So how did you land on exactly what kind of rice? And even knowing then that the of the breweries that do make rice lagers, they're still using different kinds and different processes.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yep. Yeah, because of that rice mixer we have, we were able to use your your cow rose rice, the same rice that I use at home to to cook with and eat, you know. So we go down to we were going down to the chef store and just buying an entire pallet of rice. So I'm sorry, if you ever went down to the chef store and the ground.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Thanks a lot, Ryan.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

So we started getting it from Cisco, it just made it a lot easier. But we we buy the cow rose rice in the 55 pound, the 50-pound bags, just like um, just like you would if you were buying rice for your for home. So we're we buy that, and uh, it's about seven bags of rice per batch of bochi we make, and um yeah, that's that's what we use.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

And the name Bochi Bochi?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Bochi Bochi. So the name Bochi Bochi. I can't um not. Oh, is it not safe for family? Okay, I can't I can't. I have to mention my brother Rhett, just in case for whatever reason he hears his podcast and he'll call you and he's like, this is he's such a liar, it's my idea. So my my younger brother Rhett ran or runs a food truck in Boise, Ido. And in 2018, he was running a food cart. This food cart was called Genki Takoyaki, where he made the little Japanese dumplings with the octopus in it. And in 2019, he was gonna open up a food truck. And that food truck he was telling me the name was gonna be Bochi Bochi, and I go, Oh, that's a good name, right? I like that a lot. We're talking about it and stuff. And then when I uh made this beer, I was like, oh, that's a good name. I was like, Red, can I use this name Bochi Bochi? I go ahead, sure, it's fine. He said he would. So I was like, all right, we're gonna use it. But later, when we had actually put it in the cans, I had to call him again and say, Listen, this beer is gonna be on your doorstep in voice. Like, is it still okay if we use this name? He's like, Yeah, it's totally fine. Well, you can I'll say that it's my personal beer that I made. But the name, you know, the other part of the name too that really stuck, and the reason I wanted to use it, not just because I was trying to steal from my little brother, because I think that's funny, but I bochi bochi means um so so in Okinawan or getting by somehow, kind of. So you asked somebody, like, how you doing? It's like, oh, bochi bochi, and it's like, I'm doing pretty good, making it, you know. And obviously during that time, 2019-2020, that was like everybody's like MO, you know, during COVID. It was like, How you doing? You guys doing okay? It's like we're getting good. Yeah, so it was like that's gotta be the name, you know. Like, that's just that's such a like what is going on right now, you know. So fun. That's kind of why we also stuck to the name. There's a bunch of different names we could have changed it to, but I think we I really was kind of like making sure we stuck to bochi bochi with the the marketing and and the other uh people that were in charge, they were all about it too. So it was great.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

And in this world of adjunct heavy loggers, uh it seems to me like Mexican loggers are maybe a little bit more popular. Obviously, Crux makes a great one. Uh what do you attribute to Mexican loggers' slight edge in popularity over Japanese loggers?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

I'm not sure. Maybe just the I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Uh like if you're looking uh for a shifty and you've got El Crucero and you've got Bochi Bochi, which one are you reaching for? Bochi.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Okay. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure the numbers on it, but um yeah, the Mexican lagers, they definitely have their appeal to them. Um they're maybe a little more um recognizable on the shelf. I mean, you've got so much corona and so much dosekis, and um Mexican restaurants are definitely, I would say, are probably far and more popular than Japanese sushi restaurants, so people are just exposed to it more, maybe. So, and especially in our culture, it's it's so you know, we have a lot of Hispanics in the in America, you know. So there's that also is a cultural thing, too.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

I think, you know, there's I guess I didn't think of that. Like it's just a straightforward that's the style that maybe more people identify with.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, and I think they're just used to seeing it maybe too, you know. So um, yeah, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Right. I I I don't know exactly what the top 20 selling brands are in America.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I think Modello right now is in there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Modelo, Pacific, or Corona are easily in the top 10. Yeah. And yeah, probably Sapporo might not even be in that top 20.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

It is. I don't think it is, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Because then you have your other German and European imports and all the major American macro brands.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah, Modello is definitely on our radar right now. We're hearing about well, not on our radar, we know about it, obviously, because it is doing, yeah, doing really well.

unknown 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Now, within this, it's certainly a style that not every craft brewery that even understands we are living in a lager era and they have, you know, a German or a Czech Pilsner, maybe increasingly they have a New Zealand or an Italian style or a West Coast style Pilsner, which is just to say that they're adding a tiny bit more hops to uh appeal to that sort of IPA drinker. And obviously I love the flavor of them and you keep the lower alcohol, the lighter body. But within the realm of the Japanese lager, you still get to play around. I know because I was lucky enough to stumble upon it. I don't know if it had a different name, but it might have just been bochi bochi with uh cherry blossom in it. Oh, yeah. Talk to us about that project because that was such an insanely delicious beer. Oh well. But it didn't punch you in the face with flavor. You still it still had that delicate touch, which was what you want from a beer like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Well, thank you. Yeah, that's kind of what we were going for. So yeah, yeah, hold on, your socks is coming back. So it may actually be in package too. So we're working on it right now. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. So that's a little uh heads up on what's coming down the line. Um, yeah, so we made the cherry blossom boat sheet uh for our Portland pub. And uh which I believe is no more than no more, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, just the location and and was it in conjunction with the Japanese garden up there?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Is that the idea? You know, we wanted to release it during April, May, during the the Japanese cherry blossom festival in Portland. Um so that's kind of where that beer came from. But people really liked it, like you're saying. It was really delicate and nice, and uh we got some real positive feedback from it, and so we're gonna try to give it another go this year, and and probably I can't say for sure, it's maybe gonna be in package too at certain locations. So yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

I love it. But that brings us to this other can that we have in front of us, which is really a a crowler, a canned growler.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

We got 32 ounces. This beer is is do you call it OSSU or do you call it OSU?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Osu, yep, osu. So yeah, it's a play on Oregon State University, and the word osu in Japanese, which is slang for uh what's up. So it's like saying to your fan, what's up? You know, something like that. Yeah, you can say it just like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get on your phone with your buddies and do that. Yeah. Um, but our our intern for the summer was uh a young man named Soma, and uh he's also half Japanese, and um he wanted to make something like the the bochi, so we we use the bochi base and then kind of a dark check logger. You're talking about it. I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Open it up. Here we go. That's how you know we're really enjoying these in the in the studio.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

So yeah, we came up with this recipe, he and I, and um Grant, our assistant brewmaster, has always kind of fixes it and tweaks it and tells us what we can and can't use because he's the smart guy a lot of the times. Um but yeah, we came out with a really nice beer.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Oh, and that smell. I mean, I'm not I'm not even bringing it to my nose, but I already could sense the difference.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah, so it it the idea was to have some of that rice character that. Light body, that drinkability, and then also have some of that uh dark check lager, um, roastiness, chocolatiness, just big malt, not big, but complex malt flavor to it for sure, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

It absolutely, I mean, the aromatic qualities of this beer are vast, are way more in the Czech, the dark Czech realm than what I might have perceived as a black Japanese line. First of all, the color is not black. No, it's I don't know, chestnut. What do we want to call this? Yeah. Mahogany. Mahogany, yeah. Especially as you hold it up to the light. It is transparent.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

It's got maybe it's because of how I poured it, but not quite the same uh generous head. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what what is the percentage of rice in bochi bochi for in that gris versus in in asu?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Uh so the bochibochi, if they're the same. Oh, okay. We use about 45% rice to 50% rice in both of them.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

I thought maybe it would be lower given how dramatic. No. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Oh, yeah, it's uh about the same. No, it's the dark malts that really help to kind of bring everything else to life that we used in it. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Just, you know, from my first couple of sips, it sort of scratches two itches. It's both, it is a light beer, but what I like about dark check lagers and Schwartz beers and other sort of just dark lagers, there is an extra meatiness to them. You keep the body, but you scale up on the pronounced malt character and the flavor, and it gives it a little bit more of a warming character, which is good because I will mention obviously, this is currently on tap at the pub. Right. Uh, but it will be featured at Flannel Fest, which is this Saturday, January 31st at Midtown Yacht Club.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

I'm very excited to do that event with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Crux is basically one of the few breweries that has been in every year. The whole purpose of the event is you come wearing flannels and we order beers from breweries like Crux that make a branded flannel that you sell throughout the year, but you donate them so that when people win them, either through simply drinking beer or andor donations to Bethlehem Inn that's on site, they could win them that way. Uh, so thank you, obviously, for four years, which is to say every year of support of this event. And when I first conceived of it, I thought, oh, it's gonna be everyone's winter warmer. Yeah. And understandably, the yacht club was like, we don't need 13 Imperial souts or you know, uh spiced brown ales. Uh, but I say that because fireside sweater is Crux's winter warmer, which I love. Uh maybe this is our first year bringing in a different beer from you guys. And I again, it's so simple. I love rice lagers. It has to be sort of a dark wintry beer. Uh, how has this done for you so far? What has been the the feedback from from your pub regulars that are probably the first ones diving into it?

SPEAKER_01 25:32

It's doing all right. I mean, people that try it really like it. I think it's just it is kind of an obscure style, which you know we're not afraid to do, but sometimes these obscure styles, they don't, they don't uh uh resonate with the customers as much as we'd like. But like I said, once people get it and drink it and the bar staff recommends for people to try it, everybody always loves it and at least orders a couple. So I'm sure it's done, it's done pretty well.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Two questions. One, I know the grilled cheesy has returned, had returned. Is it still on the pub menu? I think so. Which version, the bochi bochi or the osu is better suited to that, which is uh you don't have to say it, I will say it for you. It's the greatest grilled cheese sandwich in all the end.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Thank you, thank you. Um yeah, I I would definitely think with this weather we've had prior to this weekend, right? I would definitely say the osu for sure.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

You know, you want something with a little more of that dark character and uh yeah, when it's colder out and especially because there is still bacon in it, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Uh crumbles or something. So yeah, I think the the sort of I'm not gonna call it chocolate character, but it is like a like a toffee character from the malts, the darker malts go well with the right um, I forgot what that what's the culinary word for browning mayard yeah, maillard mailing character, yep, yeah. That it that it goes with that. Uh is there are there any other beers within the rice lager realm, either that you can tell us are like you said, the cherry blossom is making a return. I'm super stoked to hear that. Either that are coming out or simply that you have been dreaming about. Because, you know, I I think but again, when it came to IPAs, at first it was oh, do you just throw more hops in it? And then it became different varietals of hops, and then they started doing fruited milkshake, candy, bar, this, that, and everyone, everything was a riff on IPA. Where else do you see the style actually going?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

There is some works in a Yuzu flavored bochi we're talking about doing probably in the summer months when it was hotter out and that fruited character would be a nice little addition to the bochi. Um certainly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

We had some in terms of like maybe puree or just some some zest?

SPEAKER_01 28:02

You know, that's that's a good question. I don't know yet. I vote zest, but you're the master. No, it's the customers, man. That's that's where it's at. You know, if it's whatever gravitates you, makes you want to drink it. Um do you ever split batches, especially now? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Right? I mean, you can you could really test market a lot of different approaches. And I have to imagine that the direct over-the-bar feedback is the best way.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

That is our number one um feedback that we use uh before we release a beer into into the wild. We definitely use our our bar, our pub, as the uh customer trial for people to figure out what we what we really want to release. We all have our ideas, yeah. But unless the customer is buying it and ordering it, then yeah, we know we kind of usually know what we need to do once the customer tells us.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Any beers that you were able to dream up that either had a fantastic reaction outside the realm of bochi bochi, or maybe something you're like, I really thought that would work. Yeah, but there there is merit to trying and failing. Right. Oh yeah, totally. Any any awesome fails?

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Um, you know, we've had we've had beers that like the Dart Check lager that uh we released last year. Um thought for sure that would probably take off and be able to do it in production, but it just didn't work out. It did pretty well at the pub. Um we did a lot of put a lot of effort into making it, buying lots of really nice ingredients, and it just didn't didn't pan out to come out into cans. Um other than that, you know, we're most of the beers that do well, we we try to put it in package because of just the the want from the market. People usually are looking for something new. Um and a lot of our our uh distributors are looking for a new beverage, like Costco was was constantly asking us for new stuff.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I almost am surprised because they seem like they're built on bulk and new might not translate to bulk.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, for the first up until just two years ago, they've shrunk their their craft beer sections down to the I know from a shopper as from being a shopper. Yep. So up until about a year or two ago, they were asking us for about four or five new items a year. So they were constantly rotating some new brand in there in a 16-ounce format, and um so that kept our innovation going quite a bit. But we were always using the pub, like what was in our top five um that would translate to the production facility that we could release to the market. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Any chance, obviously, I know the the NOMO line has been doing amazingly for Crux. The the range of non-alcoholic beers, any chance we'll see a non-alc bochi?

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Maybe, yeah, that's a that's a good idea. I mean, we tried the Pilsner out and people were kind of him hon about it. I don't think people really grasp onto it. Um so potentially. Right now we have a Gnomo Amber or Amber Altering, Nomo Altering Amber is the full name. That just got released into the market, and then uh here pretty soon we're gonna be doing a Nomo week with uh Blood Orange. So we're continuing to innovate on that that front as well. But um maybe we'll see. Nomo bochi might be good.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Is I I feel like the NA segment has really I mean, I know it was introduced before you had moved from Idaho to Oregon, but not much longer. And it really seems like it's taken off in the last three, maybe four years.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Um are are you surprised by just how massive the NA market has become?

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Yeah, when I first started working here, I think the first year is when we started making our Nomo brand, and um and I thought for sure, it's like, oh, what a waste of time. Yeah. Who wants to drink a bunch of non-alcoholic beer, you know?

SPEAKER_02 32:11

But I think it was having Grant on this podcast two years ago when I learned that Nomo is your best-selling direction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Yep, is our direction six packages.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

I think the same might be true for De Schutes with their NA beers. I mean, it's undeniably a mass. And and you just see more and more breweries saying, All right, we are we're almost late to the table, yeah, getting into it.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Everybody's doing it now for sure. Yeah, I think uh, what was it? The um what is the uh oh the name's escaping me. I know. The big one? The big one. Athletic. Athletic, duh.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Which is incidentally, I don't know if you know this, they control over 50% of the NA market. Oh yeah, yeah, which is that one company.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Yeah, they got brewer of the year or something like that under a normal like brewing uh uh award ceremony, and it's like they're not even make real beer, but they yeah, they're so big and they've done so much growth, it's it's ridiculous. But yeah, people are after it, you know, for sure. So it's definitely a segment we're not we're not trying to sleep on. So yeah, it's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Awesome. Any other things that are coming down the pipe? Maybe a specific beer or just the general direction of of how things are going that you are excited about? I think that I think it's easy to look at the the dark clouds. Uh, I don't know if it's I don't think it's craft beer, I think it's alcohol in general, but I think that is sort of a statement about society in general. Uh there's a lot of reasons for that, but ignoring those things, what are the the things that you are excited about, the things that you are you know really pumped about? Because I also see signs of of hope and a return to some things for for the craft industry.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah, and we're definitely seeing that too. It seems like people are starting to try to get back out and uh you know, grease in the social wheel, you know. I think beer is an important part of that, and I think people are starting to get back out there and and do that for sure. Um some of the things I'm excited about coming down the pipeline. I mean, what we have going on with with our beers right now, we're we're trying to concentrate on our core brands, making sure that we're doing them right, making small incremental changes to make them even better. Uh Bochi is continuing to grow. I think it's our number three six pack behind the Nomo Pilsner, and then and Bochi's right next behind the Pilsner right now. So it's it's continuing to grow.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Um I love that. Yeah, even if everyone else doesn't love that, selfishly. I'm happy to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah, so we're we're you know, we're doing the right things. Um we're we will be releasing some new products here pretty soon, so you guys will all see what that is, and so we're really, really happy about that and where that that's gonna take Crux. Um I gotta keep that under the radar a little bit. But there's fair enough. There's gonna be some new stuff coming from Crux, it should make everybody pretty excited.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

So I'll I'll liken this to one of the other things that I that I get to do in Bend is I'm a DJ at KPOV and I really predominantly play newer releases, but you know, it's not uncommon for me to reach back to the 80s, 70s, 60s because if you've never heard it before, it's new to you. And I bring this up because I was at a friend's who had a bottle of a crux beer that I had had, but he had never had. It was just in the back of his fridge and it was the Spanish coffee.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Oh wow. Okay, yeah, that's way too old. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

So it was uh a barrel-aged Imperial Sout had a little orange essence in it. I love that beer. Um, how are things going with your barrel aged program? I know that we are in a very different era. Yes. Uh I'm aware of that, but at the same time, is there is there at all a you know any momentum with with some of the projects that are currently banished to put them into crux parlance?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yeah, so our banished program, it is it is shrinking quite a bit. You know, it's it's uh unfortunately it's not what it used to be, but the beer is still good.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

I mean those beers are heavier, yep, they're more expensive. They're more expensive. There's a lot of barriers of entry to diving into a beer like that. Right. All of them understandable.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

At the same time, man, are they delicious?

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah, they are they're amazing. You know, and the Tough Love brand is is one of my favorite things that we get to do, and we we are continuing to do it, but at a much smaller level. And my hope is, you know, the whole it's secular, you know, things come back around. So I think we're getting a bunch of new craft beer drinkers that are into the light loggers, into these lighter beers, and that should, you know, transition into IPAs and then maybe some styles importers, and then you know, then they'll get back into the barrel-aged beer. So I think it's just a matter of time, you know, it all comes back around.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Could I do a little uh focus testing? I forgot even what the focus market focus group. Can I could have a focus group of one? Here we are, it is late January 2026. I am just getting the ball rolling for the return of Ben Brews and Beyond. And that means 50 breweries, two brands, two flavors each, a hundred beers. Last year we had over 50 IPAs. Yep. Am I wrong for thinking that I might put a cap on the number of IPAs featured in the lineup this year? Is it okay to almost force breweries to say, hey, IPA is the dominant style within it, but you have to branch out, you have to show people that you do more than just IPA. And I say this to you because obviously Crux excels at IPAs and non-IPAs. And that's sort of what we're bifurcating this into is there's a cap on that. Is that a fair thing to do, or should I let the market decide how many get submitted?

SPEAKER_01 38:29

It's tough. I mean, obviously, coming from a brewery that you know we do production, so we have to rely on the market, you know? Yeah, but it's also it's like that's always been the thing, though. If we can educate the market on what else is out there, it's gonna broaden what's out there. So that's that's a tough one, you know. It's always been a hard, hard thing to figure out because we know if we can get people to try this hosu, like a dark Japanese lager. Once they try, they go, oh, I really like that. Or the Japanese rice lager, try a bochi. Once they try, they go, Oh, I really like that too.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

You know, but I'm hearing a vote for do it, for tapping IPAs. Right. Whether you're setting it directly or not. Fingers crossed. And I don't mean like 10, but I mean like instead of instead of 55 or 60 or whatever we had last year, I think I might cut it down to 30 or 40. 40 sounds right.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

If you're gonna get it, yeah, I think that's fair. I think definitely sub 50.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Yeah, there's there's no, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Yeah, I think it goes back to like when I go to the taste rooms with my wife, because I'm constantly trying to get her to to try other things in IPAs, and she'll try and she'll go, oh, that's really good. Can I get the IPA?

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Although I'm gonna give you an idea right here, right now. You know, we we had a very brief mention at the top of Italian Pilsons and how that led to New Zealand Pilsons. A srirachi ace dry hopped bochi bochi might be a beautiful thing. In sriraci ace, I mentioned that because it is definitely the most the best known Japanese grown hop varietal. Are there other ones that that are on available in the American market?

SPEAKER_01 40:11

I think the srirachi ace is probably the most popular one for sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

And it's beautiful because it has sort of a lemon, lemon verbena note to it. I think it would go very well.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Yeah, it could.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

If that comes to fruition by May, I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

We'll make a shout out to you, Brian, and then yeah, we'll get it, we'll get it on for you.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Well, thank you, Ryan, for for their insight into this style. Again, you you know from just me telling you how much I love bochi bochi and the variance and the experimentation that you're able to do within it, and then to have my first taste of this osu, which is an absolutely delicious beer. I see a lot of occasions that could call for a beer like this. So thank you. I hope that uh that this, like you said, more things to come. Maybe the cherry blossom coming out in package later this year when it's that season, April, May. I I I thank you for it.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Thanks for listening to Grand Craft Bend, Central Oregon's premier podcast exploring everything that's grand crafted from beer and beyond, with your host, who's a Cicero, a certified cider professional, and the author of Oregon Breweries, Brian Yeager.