The Motion Picture Podcast
Join Luke and Jackson as they review and discuss all things related to film.
The Motion Picture Podcast
Troy (Movie Review)
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Luke and Jackson discuss and review the 2004 movie Troy, which was directed by Wolfgang Peterson and written by David Benioff, as a precursor to the upcoming Odyssey adaptation by Christopher Nolan.
Now my doom is upon me. Let me not die ingloriously without a struggle, but in the working of some great deed to be told among men hereafter.
SPEAKER_04Welcome back, everybody, to the Motion Picture Podcast. My name's Luke, and I'm here today with my friend Jackson. And today we'll be talking about the movie most of you have probably seen, Troy. Troy was originally adapted from a book you probably know The Iliad, which is a prequel to The Odyssey, or maybe The Odyssey is a prequel to The Iliad, or a sequel to The Iliad, but written by Homer, who you probably don't know but have heard of. Is he real? Yeah. I've never seen him. But Troy was directed by Wolfgang Peterson and written by David Benioff. And as most of you probably know because you listened to our last podcast, we'll be reviewing The Odyssey in just a week here now. It's um releasing to mainstream audiences next Thursday. Um so we'll actually be reviewing that soon. Um, like I said, this movie is really a prequel to that movie, or the Odyssey is a sequel, following um Odysseus, who and there is spoilers in this, Odysseus, who is actually kind of the central ending character of Troy. Pretty much the only main character that survives in that movie that's worth surviving. Not Orlando Bloom, or I think his name is Paris. Um, but let's start off, you know, Jackson. You just watched Troy. Have you ever seen it before? And if not, you know, what did you think of it, you know, initially watching it?
SPEAKER_02You know, I had not seen this movie before. I thought it opened pretty rough. Also, Brad Pitt's accent was very interesting. It was kind of uh um, he didn't really want to commit to the British accent, but the British accent still called his name, so I don't really know what was going on there. So I thought I'd hate the movie, to be honest, when it first started. But I ended up liking it, honestly. I thought it had a lot of redeemable qualities to it, it seemed very genuine. The exclusion of the Greek gods was interesting because that's such a central part of the Iliad and this story.
SPEAKER_04But do you mean as characters?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, as characters, they more so reference them, and this movie's more grounded.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's that's true. Yeah, I wonder if it's gonna be more grounded than the Odyssey.
SPEAKER_02I'm not sure because there is in the Odyssey trailer, we see the Cyclops, and there was nothing like that in Troy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I would have probably enjoyed those some mythological creatures.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's just such a central part to the story, but overall, I I really enjoyed it. What about you? What do you think?
SPEAKER_04I I definitely agree the first part of the movie was not unbearable, but it was a little tough to get through. Uh, you know, some of the actors were kind of stiff in their acting, especially, you know, unfortunately, Brad Pitt and his semi-British accent, which he developed it by the end of the movie, which is what mattered.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he must have been coached throughout the movie.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And then um the actor who plays uh the actor who plays Hector.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Eric Banna.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, is he British?
SPEAKER_02I don't know what he is.
SPEAKER_04Okay, because I think he's American, because I just watched a Netflix short series on him or with him playing the main actor or the main character. Uh-huh. Uh but he's Australian. Okay. So maybe he's just can you convert an Australian accent to a British, or do you just do Australian? I guess you can't. I I I don't know. It seemed unnatural to me. Maybe he was trying. Yeah. And then, of course, is it Achilles' cousin, who is actually the main protagonist in Tron Legacy. Garrett Headland. Yeah, Garrett Headland. Yeah, so Achilles' cousin's also in the movie Garrett's Minnesota. Yeah, definitely not British. His accent, he was had probably the worst accent of the movie. Uh-huh. It was, you know, pretty overdone. But I think the movie redeemed itself in the second and third acts. Yeah. Although I think, you know, I looked, you know, watching the movie, you realize how large of a production on a grand scale, and they're really not doing that many set pieces, which was something I was, you know, less excited about or more disappointed about. But the, you know, the movie's really about the attack on Troy or the war with Troy. Um, I think it, you know, there's sometimes an eerie feeling when there's not like people walking around and it's just a couple actors in the middle of, you know, a large landscape. Um, and it feels like you know, the city's barren, and sometimes they made it feel like that, and then sometimes they just had massive crowds in the city streets.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, but that was kind of more of a call out. Um, but overall, you know, really enjoyed it by the end of the movie and and really loved Brian Cox's character, Agamemnon. Yeah. I think Brian Cox just plays Brian Cox, which is perfect.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it really caught me off guard to see him in this role in the opening. He definitely had a goober haircut for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. What did you think about the casting choices of this movie? Because this movie has, you know, looking back now, has a lot of A-list actors, anywhere from I don't know his name, but he plays Professor, I think it's Moody from Harry Potter. He's Agamemnon's brother of Brendan Gleason. Yeah. Has, you know, Brian Cox, of course. It has Brad Pitt, it has the guy who plays Hector, I don't remember his name. Um, Orlando Bloom, um, several other actors and actresses. Yeah, who, you know, with Orlando Bloom played in uh The Lord of the Rings, which could be Lord of the Rings canon. True. But what did you think about the casting choices?
SPEAKER_02You know, I texted you in the opening or when I was watching it, and I said it's probably for the best that Chris Nolan casted a new cast for the Odyssey, but that was just based on the opening. And after a while, when it settled in, I got used to the cast, but I definitely didn't think the cast was perfect, to be honest. That's fair. I thought Brad Pitt definitely should not have been Achilles, in my opinion. I read that he didn't even want to be the studio made him because he dropped out of another film.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he's he's had those problems before where he was contractually obligated.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so I think he hated his time on this movie, and I think it kind of shows a little bit.
SPEAKER_04I'd agree. His acting is you know, almost solemn, but you know, kind of stiff. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't feel like he wants to be there. It's like you know, you don't really uh he he doesn't really show a whole lot of emotion. I don't know if he's supposed to be showing a lot of emotion, but yeah, and then Orlando Bloom.
SPEAKER_02I know his character is very unlikable. Yeah, he just I don't know, man. I don't know if he's that good of an actor in general.
SPEAKER_04I was rethinking my thoughts about him in Pirates of the Caribbean after watching this because I realized how how much he just exaggerates everything. Yeah, like everything is the most serious thing needed to be said when he says it. Yeah. Like it, you know, he could be going to McDonald's and he's like, I'm going to McDonald's.
SPEAKER_03I need chicken nuggets. Don't wait for me. I'm going to McDonald's.
SPEAKER_02Go fetch me my happy meal. Yeah, he delivers his lines as if he's on a stage play or something.
SPEAKER_04I don't know how to describe his performance. Yeah, I think Brian Cox does something similar, but something about the way Brian Cox delivers every line.
SPEAKER_02Brian Cox knows he he's in a goofy Sword and Sandals movie and he really leans into that.
SPEAKER_04Orlando Bloom just showed up and my favorite part of Brian Cox was whenever Achilles had that 12-day. So essentially, for the audience, if you haven't seen the movie, um Achilles struck a deal with the king of Troy after killing Hector to give Hector back to the King of Troy and then give a 12-day reprieve of the war, um, you know, which is part of kind of the funeral rites of a prince. Um, and then you know, right after letting the king leave, it cuts to Agamemnon and he's like, 12 days.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that was just out of the blue. That was amazing. Going back to the cast, I think Eric Banna, I didn't like him at first, and then he actually grew on me as Hector.
SPEAKER_04He did too. He grew on me too. I I think I liked Orlando Bloom at first better, and then I liked him later on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just think he really settled into his character well, and I think honestly, he might have had the best performance in the movie that that made me care the most about the character, and so I was genuinely a little sad when his character gets killed by Brad Pitt.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'd agree with that.
SPEAKER_02As far as the other cast goes, I thought Sean Bean was excellent as Odysseus. I think that I didn't ever question that casting choice. I thought they did a great job with that one. Diane Krueger is good as Helen. I really like Peter O'Toole as the king of Troy. I think yeah, I think he has some goofy facial expressions. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. He was just a goofy dude. But I think the way he carries his voice and the way he delivered his dialogue was really well done. If you can get past the way he looks, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Which it may be just more of a makeup and costume choice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Brad Pitt's cousin in this movie. I don't know if they found that guy on the street outside, or if he auditioned for a different movie and they pulled him in, but yeah, his death scene where he was gasping for air.
SPEAKER_04I was like, all right, go ahead and kill him. Just kill him. That was that was crazy. He was playing into that way too much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know where they found that guy, man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What do you he redeemed himself in Tron Legacy?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think. Yeah, that's a good movie. Is he the lead in that movie? Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04With Jeff Bridges.
SPEAKER_02Um, I thought Rose Byrne did good with what she had. She's a great actress. But yeah, that's really the extent of the cast worth mentioning.
SPEAKER_04Okay. What did you think about you know the accent choices overall? And I'll say this because, you know, for context of the audience, really the accent choice for um the Odyssey coming up and it is an American accent. And traditionally, when representing, I think, European countries or like period pieces, uh, directors have chosen old English, which is what this does. Do you think that was I mean, it was in line with mainstream filmmaking, but do you think that was the right choice?
SPEAKER_02I did some research on this actually, and I read that they decided to give Brad Pitt and some of the more esteemed characters British accents because it sounds more elegant. And I think cinema has made us associate British accents with ancient history through movies like Baker.
SPEAKER_04Well, even like, you know, 300 is a period piece. And uh maybe it's Gerald Butler, Gerald Butler, not Jared But Butler, Jared Butler. Jared But. Yeah. And maybe it's Jared Butler who can't get rid of his Scottish accent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I was blanking on Gladiator. That's the movie I was trying to reference.
SPEAKER_04Gladiator, yeah. Which him too, he's Australian. Yeah, he doesn't British accent, though, doesn't he? I don't know. That's the same problem with Hector, as I can't tell. Anyway, but maybe maybe the Australians can.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, obviously they could have casted Greek actors in this. Um, but I think someone had a it's the same argument for the Odyssey where people are up in arms about the casting. I read someone say that Chris Nolan likes to cast big names in these roles so people can associate the name and the face and track the movie easier. I thought that was an interesting theory, though.
SPEAKER_04That's a fair point because this movie is more difficult to track in terms of if you compare to some of Nolan's other films, you you understand exactly who each character represents or each actor represents. And so that's something I didn't think about. I don't know if do you think that's good or do you think that's bad? Not in like in terms of kind of comparatively to how movies are slowly adapting to a Western audience's inability to pay attention because of their short attention spans now.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. You can be very faithful to the period. I I know Passion of Christ was spoken in a different language, more similar to what was spoken back in that time. I think there's a give and take to it. I mean, I think once you settle into a movie, you could track the actors. And I also think that having these prolific actors who are genuinely talented. I do think Matt Damon is a very talented actor. Yeah. His performance is just very important.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, that's fair. Yeah. And these actors are, you know, in Troy are really a lot of them are more famous for European countries and Britain, and so less famous in the US, at least in this time came out.
SPEAKER_02I think it just makes it more accessible to Western audiences, and this is a Western made in film. And so that's why there are these casting choices. If they these movies were made in Greece, or maybe the British film industry made these movies, they'd be more inclined to use British actors or Greek actors. So that's honestly why I think we got this casting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Do you think well, and you mentioned Brad Pitt, despite maybe Brad Pitt's unenthusiastic unenthusiastic acting approach, um, in terms of thematic elements of the movie, do you feel like the the movie was solid on thematic elements and in terms of maybe having specific character arcs? Because it it had character arcs throughout the movie for Achilles, for Paris, a little bit for Hector, even though he was consistent.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What did you think about you know that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I thought Achilles was a very flat character. And then whenever his mind is changed, it didn't felt like it was earned, to be honest. It felt like he just flipped a switch. I think a better writer would have been able to cook that in throughout the performance rather than having a moment where the switch flips.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's fair because I think there was a lot of good bones to that theme because essentially Achilles um comes into the movie almost this, you know, war machine, essentially kind of a lion among men, is kind of how they paint him, and all he knows is war and killing, and you know, that's what he that's why he's there. That's his motivation for glory and for having kind of a lasting name. And they use um they use, I think it's Bryces, one of the kind of slaves of war from Troy, to kind of they try or attempt to change his nature, try to give him a motivation for the war or a motivation for not fighting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they soften his heart through her character.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but they don't really go like what what's weird is whenever his his cousin gets killed, because his cousin leads the guys into battle with Achilles' armor to trick them, and his cousin gets killed, like he like just freaks out. Achilles freaks out and just like choke slams rise and like puts his foot on his friend's deck. Like it's like there was no character development. He was just like like turned on everybody.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it was trying to display his rage. Yeah, but it was Brad Pitt doesn't have a ton of range for a character like this, yeah. And so it kind of it was pretty awkward, yeah. Wanted to go back to the opening. There was a scene I really wanted to mention to you whenever they're fighting whoever they're fighting in the opening. I don't know if it was Troy or not, they bring out this big guy, and then the big guy wants to fight the best warrior on the Greek side, and then their Agamemnon goes, Where's Achilles? Yeah, and Achilles isn't there because he's asleep in his tent, and so they send this little kid to go find Achilles, and the kid's like, Achilles, Achilles, where are you? And then Brad Pitt is like, Oh, I'm here, and then the kid's like, The man's a giant, I'm scared, or something. And then Achilles are amazing. Thank you. Achilles is like, Well, that's why you'll never be remembered. That was the best part of the film for me. I mean, what a line.
SPEAKER_04I don't know what they were thinking when they wrote that in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there were so many lines that were just so funny, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Achilles was just being a douche at that point.
SPEAKER_02I was kind of intrigued by the movie because it goes from being from the perspective of the Greeks and them being the good guys, and then they they go to Troy, but Troy is seemingly the better guys. Like Troy has better men and they're more noble, yeah. And Agamemnon is like a gray character anyway, probably more bad than good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think it I think it's pretty solidly bad, or he's pretty solidly bad.
SPEAKER_02You think the Greeks were the bad guys in the end?
SPEAKER_04That's a good question.
SPEAKER_02Troy ended up being the victim.
SPEAKER_04Do you think there should have been a good good group, or do you think it's okay to be kind of gray? Because I think it it is a little gray. I think originally they are trying to paint, you know, Paris and Hector as the good guys. And and really, I think Agamemnon, I think there are characters who are good and characters who are bad, or antagonists and protagonists. I think Agamemnon and his brother are antagonists, but you know, Paris and Hector are protagonists, and I even think Achilles are protagonists, and there's still a protagonist to protagonist conflict, and it's all driven by the antagonist tension. I think without Agamemnon's greed for power, you know, there's not a tension pushing Achilles as a protagonist to fight against you know another protagonist. I think it wouldn't make sense without that key driver, which is Agamemnon. But I think as a whole, you know, the two groups are a little gray in both senses.
SPEAKER_02I definitely think it's more gray. And obviously, the conflict is derived from Hector killing the cousin for it for Achilles and the main protagonist. They kind of get brought into the story by Hector killing the cousin, Achilles going to kill Hector, and then Paris killing Achilles. Yeah. That's kind of the driving force of the narrative that's more central to the characters. Whenever we have this broader story of oh, Helen's kidnapped, it kind of kicks off the war.
SPEAKER_04Which it didn't, it didn't seem like there was a major tension driving Achilles to be in the fight, besides just you know, a lust for you know legacy and oh he's just a war machine. Yeah, and and without the character development throughout, there's really no payoff with Achilles. Like when he I mean, I was sad when he died, but there wasn't like a payoff where he was ultimately a changed man. I mean, he did go after Brises to save her from you know the the Greek army after they invaded with the the horse, but I don't think there's a a major payoff built by any sort of initial intention by Achilles in this movie.
SPEAKER_02What did you think of the fight scene between Achilles and Hector?
SPEAKER_04I thought it was really well choreographed. Yeah. I thought I heard, so don't quote me on this, but I thought I heard that I think Hector's, you know, the guy who plays Hector and Brad Pitt had either a bet or or an agreement in the fight scene that they had to pay each other a certain amount for every like body blow and face blow they actually landed on accident. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, but I thought it was really well choreographed, which you know, working with Spears seems like way more challenging in the way Brad Pitt, and we could, you know, for all that we've said about Brad Pitt's acting, you know, his I think commitment, unless it was a stunt double, his commitment to that choreography, you know, was pretty I think outstanding to me. What did you think about, you know, I'll say the cinematography and the look and feel of the movie, and then I'll ask as well, do you think the movie's aged well?
SPEAKER_02It definitely looks and feels like a 2000s movie. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you can definitely tell what time it's from, definitely pulls from the same vein as Gladiator and some of those other Sword and Sandal Epics 300. Yeah, I didn't mind it. I always appreciate the more David Lean approach, who was a filmmaker that made movies like Lawrence of Arabia, Bridge on the River of Kauai. He uses massive establishing shots that kind of show the scenery. Okay, kind of give off this epic feel of grandiose. And yeah, I really appreciate whenever these quote unquote epic movies do things like that because it makes it feel larger than life and larger scale.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so I kind of wish this movie had done more of that, more of the establishing of the landscape, more of the scenery, because it felt very of like a very enclosed story. I mean, there were only a few set pieces being the beach of Troy and then the city of Troy in the outside.
SPEAKER_04Do you mean it didn't have enough establishing shots?
SPEAKER_02I think I would have been more into the story if it had shown more of the setting. Yeah. Pull us into the movie that way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I think part of the set pieces that, you know, and maybe it was the I don't know if it was just the lack of there were extras missing in like the regular civilization or regular civilian crowd. Like it was either all within the city or all on like the battlefield. And so it felt a little eerie. I think that the the feel of the movie did. And I don't know if something about the shots, like the zooms felt like a TV show. There was a couple of weird zooms where it was like um wide shot and then zoomed in, but it was kind of a slow zoom in. And it was almost kind of like a a dramatic TV show.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Yeah, I don't know if I remember those, but they were all on Aghanemnon. He probably requested those personally.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. You know, looking beyond this movie, do you feel like this sets up the audience? If you go and watch this, do you feel like it would set you up well for watching the Odyssey?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it gives the audience a good frame of reference for what will happen in the Odyssey. I did a little research on Greek, ancient Greek history, and kind of the Iliad and Odyssey. I found out that these two books are part of something called the Epic Cycle. And so the Iliad is the second book, and the Odyssey is the eighth or ninth. Oh. And it tells the story of the Trojan War throughout the books, and then culminates with Odysseus's journey back home, and then another story after that. Because that was so long ago, I mean fourth century BC, whatever, they weren't able to preserve those texts, and the only surviving texts in full were the Iliad and Odyssey because of their popularity. Oh, really? And they're unable to verify if the others were written by Homer or other poets. Wow. So they can't say they're all canon to the stories. Yeah. So I thought that was pretty interesting that we have these two surviving tales out of a broader story. Yeah. And the Troy movie actually mashed together the Iliad, and which is talking about the Trojan War and Achilles, but then also the Trojan Horse story was actually another book not included in the Iliad. But that's what I was thinking, because that seemed Yeah, but it kind of seems thrown in the movie.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I didn't think it actually like happened in that order.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it's actually put in between the Iliad and the Odyssey in a different book. Okay. I think it's actually called like the Little Iliad or something. Okay. But it's not told in the Iliad story. So if you went and read the book, that wouldn't be in there. So it does feel like it is a little thrown into the movie. Yeah. Which I thought was interesting. But that's those are the main things I learned about the Greek history surrounding these.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Well, there you have it. Um, a little context as you go into into watching the Odyssey. We'll be covering the Odyssey, like I said, uh next week. Jackson, you know, as a whole, what would you rate Troy?
SPEAKER_02I'd probably do a three or a three and a half out of five. I ended up really enjoying it overall. I'm kind of a sucker for these period pieces. I went from hating it to enjoying it pretty quickly. What about you?
SPEAKER_04I'd say a three, a solid three. I think there was a lot of redeeming qualities, although it seemed a little stiff in the beginning. Um and uh just a little misfit in the beginning. But overall, you know, redeemed itself in the end.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd agree. I have one final question for you. Yeah. If you could recast Achilles, who would you cast?
SPEAKER_04That's a good question. With today's actors or actors back then? Either or I'll do today's actors. I I would say Chris Hemsworth. Yeah, that's a good choice. And I think I think Chris Emsworth has tried to get into more dramatic pieces, although he's stayed in the archetype of you know, action flick and just having to get jacked for movies, uh, which is probably a requisite for being uh Achilles. I think hopefully Chris Nolan took notes on that. But I think he's slowly been getting into more dramatic or more introspective roles, and I think about extraction and extraction too, really just I mean, pretty much a war machine in those movies as well. Yeah, um, but still has some introspective acting components to it, um, and has kind of been expanding. And I know you know we covered a little bit of our um distaste for crime 101 and his stiff acting and that, but I think he's he's starting to lean out of that typical um I think action flick star, and I think he could do well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I could see that. Do you think Brad Pitt will be in the Odyssey?
SPEAKER_04Originally, before watching this movie, I hoped he was, and I don't know now. I think his acting has expanded, although he still has a pretty solemn acting style.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um he had a he hit a high in his career with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. But I think I mean it's kind of his style. You think about Oceans 11. Yeah I mean, he's very much just kind of existing there, yeah. You know, kind of doing his thing.
SPEAKER_02He's the straight man of the story, typically.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and so I I don't I doubt it really, because he hasn't been in any Christopher Nolan movies, has he? No. And I you know, I really doubt, besides Tom Holland, of course, I really doubt Christopher Nolan, with this being probably his biggest film, would bring in a new main actor.
SPEAKER_02Although, I mean, Brad Pitt is Brad Pitt, so or he I think Michael Cain could be Achilles.
SPEAKER_04Old Achilles? Yeah, Michael Cain, Achilles, he'd be a better British accent, Michael Cain tries to do an American accent.
SPEAKER_03I failed you, Master Bruce.
SPEAKER_04I failed you, Master Odysseus. Well, you know, that really concludes our coverage of Troy. Shorter episode this time around. Stay tuned for our next episode on the Odyssey. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, guys.