#4 From Hyper-Growth Startups to Fractional Leader, with Hugo Pereira

I met Hugo when he became President of AIESEC International. To me he was this distant, inspiring figure at first, the person everyone in the room was watching. Years later we both ended up in Amsterdam and he became a friend whose career choices I kept learning from.

Hugo calls himself a growth catalyst. 
Today he wears 3 hats: a fractional growth and marketing leader for deep-tech and scale-ups, a builder, and a father who decided presence was non-negotiable. 
He scaled EVBox from 10 to 700 people and past 100 million in revenue. He failed at two startups before that. And last year, in the same 12 months he had his second daughter, he exited his own startup and wrote a book. Talking about crazy!

What you'll hear:

• Who are you without the job title?
• What do you do when the role everyone respects is already starting to feel like the wrong fit?
• Is it crazy to do the work nobody's paying you for, because you believe it actually matters?
• How do you balance ambition with presence after you become a parent?
• What if you didn't have to leave your job to start the thing on the side?

Check his book if want to learn from his experience leading teams and culture at hyper-growth >> Teams in Hell: How to End Bad Management.

Want to follow Hugo's work or reach out directly? Find him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hugosbpereira

If this conversation sparked something or if you have a "crazy dream" brewing, join the next Career Accelerator, a 3-month experience of Coaching + Community to speed up clarity, confidence and satisfaction in your career. 

Head to humancareers.com/contact to join the waitlist.

Transcript

Meet Hugo

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to Is It Crazy, the podcast where you find stories of crazy ideas turned into life and career success. Every episode I sit with someone who is breaking free from the traditional path and we talk about the behind the scenes, the decisions, turning points, moments of courage that most people never talk about. This is what they do. I'm your host, Eleonora, career and business coach, founder of Human Careers, and today I sit with Hugo Pereira. Hugo has been a growth catalyst for the past two decades. He is the person companies call when they need to scale. For example, that's what he did at Eeveebox, where he grew the business from 10 to 700 people and over 100 million of revenues. In the conversation, we talk about his unconventional choices, which he actually started in his 20s, how he became a leader of a huge organization very young, then decided to volunteer instead of accepting a traditional job. And after he joined the startup world. We also talk about how parenting changed his sense of purpose and helped create the career he has. Now he's a fractional growth and marketing leader. He calls himself a builder. And he just wrote a book, Teams in Health, about ending bad management. This conversation is so rich. Let's dive in. Today is my honor and pleasure to have Hugo Pereira, a friend and a professional that I admire since I was very young. And he'll he'll you're you're gonna touch about it because we met when we were still in universities, and I've seen you really growing and doing incredible things in your career now, taking your own path outside of the traditional, not only traditional careers, but also what maybe other people were expecting of you. So I'm very happy Hugo you're here to share about your career and life today.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, no, thanks for the invitation, uh. And uh yeah, I'm excited to talk about this. Uh, I like to join also podcasts that are not as common, you know, and a little bit different topic. So I'm excited for the conversation today. And I already heard even your first episode, so it was really nice to hear already the conversations you had.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Ah, that's great. Good, great. And and let's start from now. So, what is your career now? And because you like you have a few like different projects, different um areas. So tell us about your career now, also what it means in terms of um your lifestyle, how it changed as a result, and then we go and

The three hats: how Hugo describes his career now

SPEAKER_02 2:53

trace the journey.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, that's uh it's a great question. I don't even know exactly how I can label my career at the moment, which is a bit uh is a bit of uh I think it's I think it's split between three hats. Uh the hat, the first hat is the one that brings the let's all let's call it the financial income or the financial freedom, which is what people call a fractional chief marketing officer or shift growth officer. And that's where I join most of the time scale-ups in deep tech, you know, hardware, like uh deep technology expertise or uh B2B software as a service companies, either that are growing really rapidly or they are stuck and they don't know how to move forward and uh on their go-to-market. And I join the executive team, the leadership team, but I don't join full-time. I join two, three days a week, or one day a week, or four days a week, depends on the project. Normally six to nine months, and most of the time is to overhaul or to change the way of uh doing things. Um, typically, you know, I join and I lead a marketing team because that's a good sweet entry point, and also a point where most of the organizations are still out of dated in the way that they uh uh use and build on marketing. But I end up becoming really close to the CEO normally, helping the CEO on the strategy to market, on the culture building of the company. So I touch on a lot of topics. Um, but that's like I would say that's my career financial income at the moment. The other two heads, uh one of them I call it the builder, because I'm uh, you know, especially now with AI, I feel that I'm able to build um alongside, for example, a computer scientist or a programmer, will not be the same level of code quality, will not be the same level of longevity, but I can build things, and that makes me really excited. Most of the things I'm building is for myself or for my clients. Um, but I'm eager to see if I can build things for other people uh moving forward. Uh and the last one is being a parent, and uh and I know that's uh I know that uh people saw the not a small hat, a big one, but it's one that I'm consciously want to have time for. Uh, and that's why I see it as also part of the well, I don't know, of the career, or at least where I spend my time on. Um, so I think those three like compose where I have most of my energy invested today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

And I even love that you didn't have a perfect answer and perfect label because that's exactly the point. A lot of time people tend not to do things because, well, it's not a specific, I don't have a perfect answer, I don't know how to say what do I do. But the reality is you've created, and that's why I've invited you as well, because you've created a career that is really built on not just the thing that you do well, but also the things that you love doing and then the things that give you energy and around the life and lifestyle you want to have and be closer to your daughters. So that was exactly fine. Like you're having different heads, it's possible.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, I think I think I think it's gonna become more common than not, uh, especially moving forward. And that's more my my own take. I I think if if AI development and technology keeps going at the pace that it's going, I don't even know if in a decade people will have a full-time job, you know. So maybe maybe the work will be done in two, three days of the week. So then what you do in the other days of the week. Um, so yeah, so even in my mind, I'm thinking that hey, maybe in the future my career

The path less traveled — small town to Lisbon

SPEAKER_00 6:20

will be I am three days of the week, uh, you know, uh still doing my professional career where I invested my knowledge on, yeah, being you know, marketing is active or sales is active or helping companies grow. But maybe the other two days of the week, one of the day I'm I'm a painter, or maybe I opened a bakery or something like that. I I I don't know. I don't know what the future will held. Um, but I do know that uh um that if it continues at this space, uh yeah, maybe people will have multiple careers at once. Um but let's see how how that future holds.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yeah, I'm still thinking to have an orchard and grow my own tomatoes and cook gluten-free food. So that definitely that that is on my list. Um, and I want to ask you because it's very interesting how your career shaped up. So now we see these three heads, and the short version of the question is how did you get here? But I want to start from the very beginning because talking about is it crazy? You went, you know, you did some crazy things when you were still quite young, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Uh yeah, like it's it's it's interesting when you mentioned crazy because when people when people think crazy is like something completely odd. Uh, I see crazy more things that were the path less traveled at the time of the contest of my choice. So when I was born and grew up in a small town in Portugal in the center uh center coast of Portugal near Aveiro, so an hour south from Porto, for the ones that know Portugal. And um yeah, it was a very small town, so naturally people would study and would stay either in the neighborhoods or at best they would go to Porto. There was not many people going to Lisbon, and that was perhaps my first crazy choice. And I know it doesn't sound that crazy nowadays when people move all around the world, but some uh some 20 years ago, uh like going to Lisbon meant that I barely had anyone that got to Lisbon. Um I shared the room with another colleague of mine that went to Lisbon, and uh and then he actually six months later uh returned and went to another career in in Port or another study uh field of

Choosing AIESEC over a corporate job

SPEAKER_00 8:28

study. Um, but for me already it was like a big choice, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Like uh outside of the usual comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Exactly, definitely outside of the comfort zone. It feels like those cliche uh hallmark uh Christmas movies that sometimes you see on TV that are very uh they are really cringe, but it's like the small boy from the small town going to the big city, the capital. It really felt like that. Um, I don't know, like things like for the first time going on a metro, you know, that was when it happened, you know, in Lisbon, you know, like uh at 18 I went on the metro for the first time. Or um so those or like having to cook for myself. Uh I know it sounds very obvious, but in in Portugal I was fortunate enough to to grow with a family that you know that cooked all the time. So the first time I had to cook for myself was actually in Lisbon and uh and realize how how unknowledgeable I was about uh cooking. You tried yeah, yeah, no, I had to. There was no other option. But yeah, so so those are are the choices, and then uh I think the one that afterwards led to you know for us to meet and many other of our common friends was uh I'll

Running to for AIESEC International President in his 20s

SPEAKER_00 9:40

not say that it's crazy to join Isaac per se, but yes, to make the choice to invest full-time into a youth organization that you don't know where is gonna lead you, and at the same time you have the studies. And uh fortunately I was able to accommodate doing the studies and growing into the you know the youth organization we we have met. But after finishing the studies, you know, explain to your family and friends that yeah, I'm gonna continue being on a youth organization, uh, receiving barely to beat the bills, and uh and yeah, keep investing on it uh until I got fortunate enough to go to the global team and have the experience I've had. Yeah, but at the time, yeah, uh choosing to be uh to to be that, it's uh it's definitely not common whenever you have all your friends having jobs in corporate and growing their careers, and you are in a youth organization, and people saying, Why is he still in a youth organization? It's hard to explain. Um a second, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

It's worth it, and hold on because you're gliding uh quickly over it, but it's not a small thing. So coming from a small town, moving to Lisbon, joining the youth organization, not only you became a leader in your university, then you were you led the whole organization in Portugal. Not only that, then you applied for the global team and to be president of the whole Isaac International Organization. That's what I how I met you. And for me, it's like, wow, Hugos, I seem such a smart and cool person. But then also you were telling me the story behind the election, behind like deciding can like, do I am I really ready to apply to be in this like selection process with the old eyes over the world looking at you? So, how was that?

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Uh it's it's hard to put in words that would uh that would be easy for someone from the outside to explain, but I believe that like it's it perhaps similar when you're applying, let's say that you have applied for the the dream job, you know, like someone that sees a job that is really live and you go through the through the interview process, the case challenge for a normal, you know, I know startup scale-up or for an enterprise company, but it really feels like this is my dream job. I really want to get it. Um, the only difference is that you know, in a corporation, you have one person, the hiring manager, making that choice, uh, make it or break it. It's it's very much it start it starts as are you fit for the company, but ultimately there is one person that either pulls the trigger and picks you or not. And uh and that you know becomes very uh a very personal choice, even if people say not. In here, you have like a hundred people that uh are picking you, and and and it feels like more like a you know, to a certain extent, elections or a you know a political path, and it is a political process to a certain extent. Um so it it's a bit strange because you talk to a hundred people from a hundred different countries, you to you want to convince them. I think I believe that actually the election process itself when was to become the global president of Isaac, the beginning was terrible. I had a terrible start. Um and uh and I actually did not have uh to a certain I didn't have competition. Normally you have two, three, four, five people applying for president, and I had no one. I was for the first time in many decades the only one applying for president. And people think about oh, then you know, it's an obvious choice. I was like, no, because the comparison is to the best fit, yeah. Um, there's no comparison to the other available option, is the comparison to what might be. And so I was really nervous because I was like, okay, you know, they can only compare to their ideal, and the ideal from from someone from Nigeria is different from someone from the US, is different from one from the Netherlands, different from someone from Japan. And it's so different to cater and to please everyone. And I think something that I learned alongside the process, which stays with me today, which is I start being at my best in the process and to show I'm really the right choice to the organization when I stop pleasing people. Because I was trying to please to every region, to every country, because I wanted my my thought was I don't want just to win, I want to win with such a majority that there's no doubt because that's that's the battle we are fighting. It's no longer to win.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

It's like gaining the trust of like.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

It's a trust building, yeah, is is is winning without a single doubt of choice, knowing that I'll not I'll never get the hundred percent of the vote, nor nor I want to, because that will have been also other kind of like uh pressure. But I wanted to just make sure it was uh resounding yes. Um, but yeah, it was you know the process is quite intensive and is it's the process in itself is crazy because you have an application which is really deep, then you have like a 15-minute speech, opening speech, then you have a like a five-hour, six-hour interview uh with every single region where you are grilled for 45 minutes, you have 10 minutes break, you go to another region like Latin America, and you have another grilling session of 45 minutes, 10 minutes stop, you are exhausted at the end of the six hours, then you have a one uh one hour and a half break, and then you go into your closing five-minute speech. And and you still have a panel with normally a journalist or a few companies as a panelist, like uh in this case was the economist. So you have a journalist from the economist that really knows her space, and you are in that bubble of Isaac. So the process is incredibly crazy, actually. Um, but it was one of the biggest things I retained with me, which was like, yeah, when I stopped pleasing and just saying what were the way I believed the organization had to shift, that's even if people disagree, they respect it that okay, I have a clear view, and I have a view they can vouch even if they don't fully uh see it or they disagree with it. They respected it enough that they say, Okay, yeah, I prefer to have someone that you know is not afraid of challenging me back that can push the organization forward. And and that for me was crazy. Um, and yeah, and uh after the the election, hard to explain a full year when you are leading a global organization. But for me, the crazy choice next was not the year in itself, it was wrapping up that crazy experience, which is a bubble. And um, there's no way to ex the way to explain to people is to be the equivalent of you being an influencer on Instagram or TikTok, where you have like the equivalent of having millions of people watching everything you say, um and every

After the bubble — volunteering in India

SPEAKER_00 16:03

single comment is debated, you know, and and and and uh yeah, yeah, people immediately have an opinion on what you do and what you do. Exactly, yeah. And depending on where you go in the world and the power distance, yeah, in terms of culture aspect, if you go to China, uh probably was the more crazy experience where you have hundreds of people lining up to take pictures with you, and you're like, This is surreal, why are they taking pictures? You are the celebrity, it is in a very odd way. Um, but then you know it's a bubble. Um, so uh so yeah, so when I was wrapping up my journey, naturally, because of the organizations we work with, there was plenty of opportunities like for global enterprises, for global NGOs, um alumni that were in really great positions. So I had several options to continue my career in a professional path right away from a good stepping stone. Um, and then I decided to go to India for a volunteering internship.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Surprise!

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Surprise! I'm like, I'm gonna say no to all of you, and I'm gonna go to India. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Well, that is definitely a surprise. So, what I'm hearing is that it's just been a definitely learning in leadership, like very early on, in the middle of your 20s. Also, even though it didn't seem like the expected path from the outside, though it really gave you so much that you used until now to your day, and you had a lot of potential job offers lined up, but still you said, you know what? I still have something else I want to try on. And you went to India.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, and I went to India, which uh which in itself for every for everyone that had a chance to visit uh uh India or or other other countries. Um, yeah, the there's a lot of I already love the culture, and I love the country from the few times that I had visited, but I wanted to live there and I wanted to work there, and I wanted to see, you know, I wanted to get closer to the culture, the disparity in terms of wealth. I wanted to see, you know, actually uh a lifestyle there, and how it does it look like. Um, but mostly I wanted to, I know it sounds a bit strange, but I wanted to humble myself also as well. Because after that experience, I felt this might like I might start my career in the wrong path, and I felt I needed some time in between, not just to figure out what I wanted next, but also to just unwind from the experience. Um yeah, and for me, having the chance to do uh a project working with under previous children meant that was great because they literally don't care about any job title. Yeah, children just care about play, are you fun? And you can you help? And uh and that for me was a perfect setup uh for uh yeah for the time I was there for a few months, and it helped me to reset. Um, and then yeah, it meant also that I lost momentum, and then when I'm back, I was back at the at the workforce, uh, just like any other person. Um you know, and I had to find my way and figure out what I wanted to do next. Um but yeah, but the India experience was definitely a crazy choice, you know. You have multiple offers, you have a great way to get started, you don't have to struggle a little bit more. And here I have went to India, ask my parents for for financial aid to do a volunteering internship, which is yet another odd choice that they were like, why the hell this kid goes to India? Um good thing that it's not too expensive, you can ask not uh a large sum of money, but still I asked I had to ask them to uh pay for the ticket, to uh have some kind of allowance there monthly. Um, despite that I was working also locally for a me uh for a marketing agency while being there, it was just not enough to um um you know for my financial condition. So, yeah, so it was crazy to make all those choices when uh yeah, and and I got lucky that you know my parents were able to support me and to accept my craziness of like uh delaying my career path, yeah, and yet then you you grew again quite quickly.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

So I'm hearing that has been a very grounding experience and helped you to get out of the bubble, also remember who you are outside of the title, and what do you do? What did you do next? How did you decide? Well, what is then the

Who are you without the title?

SPEAKER_02 20:15

path that I want to take now that I want to grow?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Well, I I believe that you you actually mentioned something in between the lines that I believe it is really important, and it's one of the questions that people spend the least amount of time on, which is who they are without the bracket title. Yeah, because when people introduce themselves, always like, you know, you know, what do you do? And the do is always the job function. Yeah, oh, I'm a product manager at X, I'm an HR director at uh Y. Um, and that's that's just the label, which is nothing wrong with it, you know, it's it's it's a way of formalizing and giving some context to people. Um, I was very clear after India and even before, but I was clear that I was a few things. One, I wanted to be what I can call a growth catalyst. Already at the time I was very clear on that approach, you know. I'm I'm a catalyst for growth. It was in Isaac, it was in India, you know, because even in India you think about oh, I was a volunteering internship. Um, I raised funds that paid for an English teacher for two years. I set up a program for the kids, I challenged the parents uh because at the time in India I went through something interesting, which was I wanted the kids to believe they could be something more than what they wanted to be, which was like a housemaid or a um I don't know, a taxi driver. You know, there was a few things, and the parents got really upset with the NGO and with myself that I was giving false hopes. Um however, fast forward, just a side note, fast forward like 15 years, like a few years ago, the the kids, some of the other kids grew up, they got WhatsApp, they found me and other uh educators, if I can call it ourselves educators, yeah. And uh and they started writing to us and sending pictures of how they were, what they were doing. Many of them went to university. When I say many, I meant like maybe five, seven out of twenty. They went to university. So for me, you know, like you know, the reward of something I did at 25 only happened 15 years later, you know. So uh it's uh it's interesting how we what an impact. Uh the impact happened many, many, many, many years later. Um, but that that made it all worth it in handsight. But of course, you don't know that when you are you know living through it. Um, but again, a crazy choice that you see that yeah, it does have an impact even if you might not fully grasp the uh the meaning of it. But as I mentioned, like this growth catalyst, this being a builder,

Two startups that failed first

SPEAKER_00 22:39

I always love to build things so uh uh and to build frameworks, to build concepts. Um, so I was clear on those two of those two, and and I was clear that I love autonomy and uh I love autonomy um in choices. So for me, that meant that I might not find this sweet spot in enterprises um or large organizations, multinational or very structured. So I found this would be hard, it would be possible to be harder, and I'm not sure if I'll be as happy, and I'm not sure if I'm not gonna be obsessed with a career ladder in order to get to that point. Um, yeah. So with that, I was like, okay, let me go through um and join a startup. And uh I know now it joins like okay, that's obvious, you know, you join a startup and all these kind of things. In 2011, 2012, there wasn't all this startup vibe that people like to talk about now. There wasn't these funding rounds of like 10, 20, 100 million, you know, there wasn't these valuations. If someone will have raised 100k or 500k in some European markets who have been like amazing or 1 million who have been completely off, I believe at the time I had joined um the uh the market in Belgium because I moved to Belgium uh because my then girlfriend, now wife, uh and mother of my daughter was there. Uh so uh so I moved there because of her. And uh yeah, the start the I think the start that I had the biggest amount of funding was just like a few million if if that much. Um yeah, that's that was a lot. So that was very so it was very limited at the time the exposure to startups. Um so yeah, so because of that, yeah, I uh there wasn't many options. I chose the first startup that I was able to get through the process and say yes. Um, and that's how I started my startup journey, and uh, and uh it failed twice. You know, the first startup was terrible, terrible culture, terrible product, terrible, yeah. So now it was exciting the beginning because it was new, but quickly enough, I think in month two or month three, I was like, oh man, this is uh this is not great. But I was able to build a team, uh, I was able to uh to try it out to learn also how to navigate a tough environment in a startup. Um so the first start didn't work out that well, and then I questioned, you know, then I'm like, okay, it's am I crazy that I want to still still do another startup? Maybe I'm going, maybe I'm losing it. And I still went crazy enough that I was like, no, I'm gonna do another startup. That was even crazier one because uh because uh they had the developers in Argentina and uh they had 18 shareholders, tons of mistakes, but it was a better story where we actually grew the company and uh and uh um well exited, but not at the value that the founders wanted, and then afterwards I was like, okay, I definitely have to do something better from here, and then yet again I joined another startup.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Um but at the time you had already two that you knew like what didn't work, what worked. So, yes, you're talking about mistakes, but at the same time, these were all information. Okay, now do I have better like if I want to continue, it's probably because I know myself enough that this is the right environment for me. And at the same time, what am I looking for to make sure that the next startup is going to be better than the previous one? So that is still learning and and and data to put into use. That's what you did.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, and uh for every startup choice

EVBox — scaling from 10 to 700

SPEAKER_00 26:11

I made afterwards, it got better and better. Yeah. So the first one I just didn't know what I didn't know, yeah. So uh made a lot of wrong choices. The second one I was already more clear. I knew their financials, I knew their funding round, I knew their way of working, I knew what their vision of the founder was very powerful. And even if it doesn't work out, I believe that the problem he wants to solve, which was an HR Tech company, and the way he saw was like uh you know, the hiring process, especially as SMEs, is broken. Um, they either have like an Excel or large companies use these large tools that are like super cumbersome, and the experience should be good for both sides. You know, you should be able to you know have a great hiring experience as a candidate, and you should have a great hiring experience as an employer. And so I I really truly connected to the pain point. I was like, yeah, it's true. I apply for for companies, it's terrible the process, I never know what's happening. And the you know, the idea was to automate everything, which today already exists, but at the time there wasn't really a tool that was, you know, if you get rejected, then you get an automatic email, and you don't have to wait weeks or months for the recruiter to wake up and be like, oh, oh, let me reject all these people.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Now I remember.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Um, you you actually could see if the recruiter wanted or the organization, there was an open process where you could see which stage were you of the total process, you know. So if they choose to have transparency, it'll be transparency. Um, there was a lot of like it really interesting things. At the time we had something unique, which was even you could apply with LinkedIn, which I know now is very unique, but at the time it wasn't. So you could actually uh fetch all the data from LinkedIn, you create really your CV in a nice way, and then it will help stand out. Um, so all of these small things were great, and I believed it and I learned. And then, yeah, the third startup was the one that you know also helped me propel uh my career within Scale Ups, which was an EV charging company called EV Box, and that's the one that afterwards, you know, third time is at charm, as they say. That's the one that went from you know 10 to 700 people in in a few years, uh, you know, and from like I don't know, a few million in revenue to 100 plus million in revenue. Not everything was like um butterflies and uh and uh sunny days rainbows and rainbows, as you say. But it was an experience that gave me uh gave me the confidence that my mindset on the way to build organizations and teams was was the right one. It just needed the right context. Um, so yeah, I truly enjoyed to live in a hyper-growth environment. It has its cons and pros. Um, but uh it helped me shape the confidence that afterwards, you know, I I could, you know, after this, I felt okay, I did all the stages of growth. Um, and then I had the confidence to say okay, the next one will be the one on my own.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yeah, yeah. And then one question that I have on the EV Box experience: what did you learn? Maybe what you didn't expect, but you had to learn on your skin and fast, probably in a hyper-growth setup.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Um there wasn't anything I would say outstanding. I I believe the most clichy thing is that in especially especially in a hyper-growth environment, the one b one item that people tend to underestimate, especially leaders, is the culture of the company and the way of executing things. I believe that at least with EVBox, the very first years we were standing out because of the culture choices we've had. Um because product-wise, it's still a hardware product, you know, it commodities over time. So the more layers, the more competition, how you differentiate. You know, it's like the phone, yeah. Uh you know, people at some point in time they choose the brand. Yeah, you have an iPhone, you have an Android, you know, you choose you choose a laptop, it starts to become like that. So you start to choose the brand, and if you choose a brand, you choose a brand. Why? Because I don't know, you connect to the people, you connect to the voice, you connect to the visuals. So I believe that we made an early-on choice, and we got lucky that the CEO was very prominent, and he was also eager to have a great culture, because I think it was also something that him as a leader was missing to experience. He's like, I want to build something, people are proud to come to work every day. So he entertained that. Um, but then the execution of it was with me, you know. So I was very much aside from being the marketing lead and the go-to-market lead, I was also like the culture uh tick to the point that even HR and even the HR leaders had to sort of report to me on cult on choices that affect the culture, which was so odd.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah, and what else?

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Um values, values, way of working, processes, um, naturally, not naturally the dynamics of of HR with contractual things, legal things, and but yeah, uh hiring processes, hiring choices, culture, values, that all was uh was running through me um aside from my normal work, which was which was uh really odd. Um but yeah, as you said, like is it crazy to uh to do things

Becoming a parent, and trading ambition for presence

SPEAKER_00 31:14

that you know you're not paid off in an organization? But I believe those things really mattered. Uh it also comes a little bit from the Isaac period, you know, really caring for leadership, really believing that okay, if you don't form like a if you form a strong culture that will over overcome any shortcomings that we had, product quality, you know. If you are one of the first movers in hardware, there's an advantage to market, but also means that you know you have legacy products faster than all the other ones. So we you know, over time our old products start having issues, and then how people can trust you, you know, they trust that you will resolve because they trust a person, yeah, and they trust a brand. Um and I believe that got us like a long way, but of course, towards the end, that starts eating us. You know, there's there's so much you can do, and at the at the end, as you as you become 700 people, and then ambition starts to clot judgment, and then you also made the mistakes, and that started with wanting to go IPO, and uh people think IPO is a magical journey, most of the times it's a dreadful, stressful journey, um, and you only see the end result of it, which is like you know, whoever got like the payout, the exits and stuff. But that's a minority of the people, and the other ones just go through the exit, the IPO, they celebrate, but they you know, it just means that they're gonna have to work harder, choices that are gonna be made for the benefit of stakeholders and uh and not uh customers, and those things were no longer for me. So that's why I also wrap up my journey because I was like, okay, this is no longer the company where I can be the growth catalyst, the you know, the ambassador, and uh and yeah, you know, and I I uh I wrap up the journey uh because I saw that yeah, some things are not gonna go well.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, and then in the meantime, like your life has like was changing. I wonder how becoming a parent informed your choices and the career that you have now.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah, so I believe that uh definitely the the birth of my first daughter also helped out. Uh and Corona, the combination of both uh helped because it put in perspective that okay, if I'm gonna keep working these 12-14 hours a day, um, this is not gonna be good for anyone. I'm not gonna be present, I'm gonna be tired, even more tired, um and I'm not gonna enjoy the journey of also being a parent. Um, so yeah, so part partially the choice of uh yeah, wrapping up my journey at the company was due to that. Actually, I wrap up the journey in the company and I went on a six-month sabbatical. Um, so that that helped me because yeah, the the at least the first months of the life of uh my first daughter, I was like 100% present, no work, nothing, just being there. Um, it was still very a lot of work, as you know, and probably other parents know. Still felt like work every day.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Yeah, it does, but then you are available for it, and that's an experience that a lot of people don't get even to experience, or maybe they do part-time on top of everything else, but you could dedicate time for it.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah, and then and then that came with the and then it comes a few things which is uh I'm still highly ambitious, but then I was like, okay, at what point ambition I trade off ambition with presence, and you can do both, but I think there's a limit to how much you can do both, yeah. Um so uh yeah, so I said, okay, I uh I want to have the flexibility to be present, I could do it through another company, but the ultimately, independently of that, someone will decide at time for me. Um, you know, because at a certain point in time, if I can be present, but it's you know, it will come at a cost or at a choice that might hard the company, the team. So I don't want to have to have that trade-off. And that's why I thought about okay, I have a daughter, um I want to start going on my own. And uh, I know for a lot of people, you know, this is not like a crazy the crazy path to becoming a founder is no longer that treacherous or like that crazy. Um, but yeah, it's it's it's you know, at a certain point, I still feel that it's a smaller part of the population. It's still crazy that you know you have so many opportunities to join another hyper-growth company, build further a career, have good financial uh freedom um in the Netherlands that is not the cheapest country to live in. And I was like, no, I'm gonna go on my own and take the risk. Uh it's been three and a half years, almost four, I think, since I

Going his own way — fractional, and his advice for starting

SPEAKER_00 35:34

made that choice. And uh yeah, I don't look back one single minute. And it hasn't been easy at all, but I'm I'm happy I made that choice because I didn't compromise on one of the things I want, which is presence, you know. So um I'm present and uh yeah, and uh and I'm able to do that. But of course, if people ask how's the life of a solopreneur or a founder, it's different, you know. As a founder, you want to build something that transcends yourself, which is a company or a product or a service, which we tried uh for two years, me and my co-founder. We build, we we generate revenue, but we saw that the scale wasn't there, and we sold the company. Um so I got lucky that I went through that journey, two years of building from zero, getting some traction, selling it out. Um, and yeah, it's a grateful exit because there was no financial gain, you know. We mostly paid some of the bills back that we had uh in depth ourselves with. So yeah, didn't gain anything, didn't lose anything, but I gained a lot of experience with with that journey. Um and it gave me the trust that okay, I can build, I can generate uh value to the audience I want. And now that confidence lets me be at peace that okay, I want to go through that journey again, but I don't have to do it just now.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Yeah, yeah. So you're building, and then in between, like working as a fractional, mostly for marketing and growth. And now that you've done it for a few years, what recommendation would you have for people that are thinking of going on their own and potentially doing it fractional or or part-time, or maybe they're undecided between both? What recommendations do you have to navigate this?

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Well, the the the first one, I believe it's just uh make sure you have really high self-awareness on what your value is. For me, that was extremely clear and that helped a lot. Um, I also got extremely lucky that I as I wrap up EV Box, I came from sabbatical, people start reaching out and be like, hey, what are you doing next? etc. And then I said, Look, I'm still open, I'm exploring, and they say, Well, I need help with this. Could you help out for a few months? And then from that, you know, I built one, you know, I had one customer, had to put a company, then another customer, and then another one, and I was like, Well, this actually there's demand for this. Um, and then I got to learn about the term fractional, and I thought, okay, if in the US this is becoming uh that trend, it's gonna come to Europe. So let me be one of the first ones to to acknowledge it. Uh, and that's what I did, you know. So that's that's I took like a little bit of a trend that I saw in another uh place of the world, and I thought this is gonna come here. Um, I don't see myself doing that for you know like a decade. Um, but and nonetheless, that's for now gives me the flexibility. But I was very clear about my differentiator, my network. That's a second thing. To are you clear about your network? Because if you don't have the network to get out and reach out and see if there is the appetite for it, test the waters, then you might be in for a surprise. That's a second one. The third one I would say is that you know, it's a bit tricky one, but you don't have to leave your job to do this. Yeah. Uh, if you want to take a risk, you can, for example, go back to your company, negotiate a four-day work week. I know some people might be able to do it, some people might not be able to do it, but use that fifth day to study, reach out, you know, build a side business, see how it works out. Again, I know this is depending on your current context, professionally and personal, but there's multiple ways to start testing, building, and being out there, seeing if what you want to solve really exists. Um and yeah, and I'll say don't be afraid to just try it out. Um put yourself out in the open on uh on socials, on LinkedIn, reach out to your contacts, to your friends, ask about hey, I'm thinking about going in this direction. Um, you know,

Writing the book in the craziest year

SPEAKER_00 39:18

I'm sure there's always someone that knows someone that you want to talk to and see if it's really a pain point or not. Um, and that's I I would say those are some of the ways that I'll recommend to get started if you're really exploring something on your own.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Yeah, and I've seen you, and I think one thing that is not small is that you really built a brand in between. Like you've been open about what you were doing as uh as a growth leader, like that you're doing in the organizations, you have very interesting learning, like leadership experience, like you're very passionate about teams and culture, and these things were very visible. So I think that helped for you. Maybe you didn't even realize at the beginning when you were sharing, but you really ended up building a brand, and that is probably a great foundation for what you're doing now. Yeah, see, we're doing something we're doing in uh in common for sure, and last but not least, you've also published a book last year, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

So not only like second daughter born, but also like your fractional work and building and writing a book. So, what prompted you? It's about teams and uh like handing bed management.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

That to tell us about it's well that that I think probably that was the I'll say the craziest amount of choices in a single year. And uh I I people say uh that's one that I probably would not recommend many people to do it. You know, if you have like a company but it's not working well, so you are a fractional because you need a financial income, then you have a second daughter coming, and you decide that you want now is the time to write the book and it's now or never. I think four things at once it is definitely a little bit too much because you cannot focus and you cannot prioritize all at once. Yeah, you can you cannot like be present for all those choices. Um so yeah, definitely not recommend. But having said this, um, it did turn out well. Um, it did turn out well, I think especially because um I was very clear about the non-negotiables. Yeah, so uh for me was clear that I wanted to write a book. And the reason why I want to write the book was because in this era of like what I write about leadership and teams, there always comes that question of hey, do you have a book you can recommend to people to get started? Um and there's not that I didn't find that there was not like a series of books that I can really say you read this book and it's gonna help you out. You know, there's a lot of books that are inspiring, but also depends on the context of your experience. So I felt like what if there is a book that is just like really small, simple, and just with uh at least a philosophy and some assets and some frameworks to get started with uh for young managers or for managers that want to reinvent themselves. Um and that was it. And then initially started as like just writing a lot uh and seeing how far I would get. Um, then I did hire a uh copywriterslash publisher that helped me output the structure. Um, and then that process was almost done prior to my daughter being born. But then the final 20% of a book is the toughest one because it's the the small details, the the small images. Are you happy with the book? That 20% or 10% of the book missing took from February to June, you know, those four months. You know, it's funny. It took me four months to write 80%, and then four months to finish the final 20.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Interesting for everybody thinking of writing a book, then good to know in advance.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Yeah, a lot of small details that uh that get at the end that just delay over the weeks. A page that you are not happy with, but you don't know exactly how to add, a small, you know, like AI was taking over the noise. I was like, I have to have a chapter on AI, but what am I gonna say about AI without the experience? And I was just joining a new fractional work with an AI uh first company, and I was like, like if I have it at least three months in that company, I'll have some insights. But yeah, but I was like, but uh on the upside, yeah, I committed myself, I'm gonna go into summer and I'm gonna have the book written and out. On the downside, by the time the book was launched, I was like, okay, that's it, done here, it is everyone, I'm out, I'm gonna go on holiday. Is not, you know, if you're gonna launch a book, I

Self-awareness is the leader's superpower

SPEAKER_00 43:30

already shared with a few people that are uh launching their own books. I said, make sure that your launch is a three-month focus, at least. Okay, you launch and you do three-month non-stop attention to the book and workshops and uh book reading, uh gatherings with people. Um, and in my case, I launched a book and I went on holidays for a month in Portugal. So not the not not the not the best choice in terms of promotion, but uh one, I needed the rest, and secondly, I uh I was just happy that okay. I I finished this part of the process. I'll get back to it. And I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm done with it. I went through the process. I definitely, it's not going to be the last one. But I now I'm happy that I know how to go through that journey. Yeah, and uh and in terms of the rest of juggling multiple things, um, I think it comes down to prioritization, products, productivity, and purpose. You know, and I was very clear that my purpose is still to be present and still add value. So over time I got I got to start cutting things. You know, that's why at the end I decided to sell the startup because I was like, okay, this is not gonna work well. Uh so over the summer I made a choice. I'm gonna sell the startup so that I can be more present, be more focused. Um, so yeah, some of the choices are also like, yeah, you went crazy to make some choices, but you also have to be grounded to push back when it's not working.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yeah, absolutely. One thing that I see in common through a lot of the experiences is that you have a capacity to understand who you are and what works for you and what you like, because you mentioned more than once about knowing the values or knowing the purpose. And and often when I have conversations, because this is my philosophy as well, but I hear often is oh, yeah, it's like just fluffy things, or it's just talk, talk, talk. But in truth, what you're saying is no, it's very practical. Because if I know what my values are, like what my purpose is, then I make concrete choices based on that, and then I can see does it work for me or not. So, how do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah, I I I believe, yeah, I self-awareness is the biggest superpower for any any leader. Um, because if you know yourself really well, you also know who are the people that you need to build around you to elevate yourself. You also know which people can challenge which kind of profiles you need to challenge you, uh, which kind of different perspectives you might need, uh, where are your biases? So the investing in self-awareness is never a lost, a lost, a lost cause. It's always a great way of uh of building yourself. And uh and that means also investing not just financially, but also investing time on knowing yourself. Um I still do a 360, you know, once a year, you know. Sorry. Um I still uh I still run, I never do this kind of assessments, you know. I know that they are useful, but at a certain point in time they stop being useful if you know yourself. But I do deep reflection at least once a year, and then once a quarter I do a check-in and I see things I want to change. I do my weekly debriefs

His key message

SPEAKER_00 46:37

with myself sometimes. Um, so I found a process that helps me stay in touch with where I am now and where I want to be, because sometimes you have to make some shifts in behavior. Um, especially with parenting, you are you know forced almost to make some switches on on uh or switch some prioritization on values and and and behaviors. Um, but yeah, investing on that is is incredibly important. It will make all your life choices much easier because you'll go back to those values. Um and yeah, and some of those values are are forged in childhood, yeah, um, with your parents, with your friends. Some of those values are are forged in in your youth, in my in our case, or in my case was with Isaac. A lot of the values of Isaac are still my values today. Um, like things like I remember one of the values was striving for excellence, you know, and that was like, yeah, I do believe that that has to be something I'm always gonna be focused on. You know, every work I do has to be of excellence, um, or demonstrating integrity, you know, like or transparency, you know. So those things became very part of me. Um, yeah, so so yeah, having those things clear will make your life choices definitely easier. Um, yeah, yeah, not easy, but easier.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Yeah, you're very clear about the past, and at the same time, maybe life evolves and then values change. So, what I'm hearing is that you really have check-ins regularly, and this is something by the way I learned from you as well in some of our collaboration, how to do it effectively for you, for your team. So that's definitely part of your superpowers, too. I want to ask you one last question that is who do you wish would hear this conversation? And what is really the message that is in your heart that you wish more people knew about?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Um maybe, maybe well, there's two, three people that maybe want to hear this message, maybe first-time leaders that are wondering about am I cut for this and uh what kind of steps should I have to do? That would be one. Uh, maybe founders or people that are trying to figure out their own path, like lifestyle choices and you know how to get started, or uh, or you know, is it crazy that I do this? And maybe get more confidence from the conversation we've had. Um and maybe the the last one might be you know, parents that feel that you know the parenting is not enabling them to do uh other choices that they might want to have to do, and maybe they get the trust or the opening that yeah, it's possible. You just have to you know be creative and make some uh maybe mini projects to get started. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Yeah, thank you, Ugo. I love their conversation, and I would also encourage everyone who wants to know more about your experience, about the work that you do to connect on LinkedIn. So I leave the link in the show notes. And thanks again.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Thank you. Thank you, thank you for the kind conversation.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Thank you for listening, it truly means a lot. Before you go, if this conversation opened up something for you, I'd love to know what it is. Feel free to share it with me or on social media. This is how stories travel. If you enjoyed this episode, you're already part of this community, and this is how you can help us grow. You can leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening from. You can follow the show or you can turn on the auto download so you never miss an episode. Any of it helps more than you know, because it helps other people find the stories when they need them the most. And it really does take just one of us acting on a crazy idea to change not only our life, but the lives of everyone around us. And if you two have a nudge, a crazy idea running in your mind, and you're looking for guidance to turn it into reality, follow the show notes to connect with the guest and find more resources from human careers. Thank you for being here and see you in the next episode!