Okay, so to help us unpack that today, uh, I'm joined by Jane Arden. Welcome, Jane. How are we? Hi. Good, good. Do you want to start by telling um the listeners a little bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I can do. So my name's Jane Arden. I'm a dog trainer and behavioralist uh in Lancashire. I've been working professionally for over 20 years now. Um, have a dog training centre in Bury called Waggle Finn's Hainine College. Um, and I also have a puppy training subscription box called Smart Pop. Um, written a book called Mission Control, How to Try and Train the Hydrive Dog. I mainly specialise in working on dog breeds in pack hosts, mostly spaniels, and I have eight working cockers of my own.
SPEAKER_00Eight? Eight working cockers. Wow. You must have a busy house. Fantastic. What a lovely intro. Um so today um we're gonna talk about a topic that I think is hugely misunderstood in in the dog world. Um and that's about environmental sensitivities. So do you want to start by explaining a little bit more about what that is? Let's start with what it is. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So I think um what we tend to find is when um when we get dogs that are reactive outs out and about into the environment. So that might be um a dog that gets that kind of lunges and barks, um, it might be one that uh kind of just does behaviour that we deem as inappropriate. Um and a lot of times, especially with reactivity, especially like lunching and barking, people assume it's like, oh my, I need to socialise my dog, especially if that is kind of directed towards other dogs or people. Um but I think with some dogs, and I I see this a lot with um with a lot of working breeds with a lot of high-drive dogs, is um they kind of get really overstimulated by just the environment itself. And a lot of these dogs are very, very like hyper-aware of the slightest change in the environment. Um, and that might be a scent change, it might be a visual change, um, it might be sounds, and you tend to find that um what can happen is those little environmental changes or big environmental changes, and cause the dog like an increase in arousal and stimulation, and then we start to see these behaviours that we could potentially look at as being reactive. Sometimes these dogs are like barking, they're not just barking at something, um, it's just that their arousal is kind of revved up. Um, so for me it's very much about um kind of the type of dog that becomes overstimulated by little changes in the environment. Um, and then this they just struggle to function. So their ability to function in that state of arousal kind of goes out the window and we start to see all these kind of other behaviours.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. And what struck out to me there is that not once did you mention like poor socialisation, because I think that's like a topic that people jump to, like if there's uh a reactivity problem or something's going wrong with the dog that they think my dog wasn't socialized properly. What's your first thought when somebody comes to you with that and says my dog's under-socialised?
SPEAKER_01So for me, um, I look at kind of what are the triggers, what are the overall triggers that are causing the dog to do this, whatever the behavior might be. Um we'll go through their like social history, we'll talk about their genetics, we'll look at like what that dog's individual social drive is. Um, and then we'll kind of look at how that dog reacts to movement because sometimes it's it's just movement, sometimes it's just a change in the environment, and sometimes there's a social drive. And sometimes you might have this like tangled mix of everything going on going on in there as well. Um, and I think that you know, socialization with regards to people and dogs is is like one part of socialization, but then you've also got um like just socializing the dog to the environment. But what we actually find is is sometimes even you know going down the oh, I'm going to expose my dog um to the environment and then it'll just get used to it, with these dogs that get overstimulated, you can potentially create um conditioning of over-arousal, over-stimulation to environments if you're not approaching it properly as well. So for me, it's about kind of looking at the individual dog and saying, you know, is socialization playing a part in this? Um, is it breed specific? What is the dog? You know, we can one of the things I do when I look at dogs and from an assessment point of view is I look at its environmental confidence, its people confidence, and it's dog confidence, um, which is something that we assess in puppies. Um and generally, you know, you can see you can see those natural traits very, very early on. And I think those traits are also what I would class as more stable traits than uh traits that are changeable as well. So, you know, if you buy a puppy and it's got massive amounts of environmental confidence and not a lot of dog and people confidence, then you know, if that goes into a pet home, we're probably gonna have quite a bit of fun with it. Um when that dog's like genetic drive is is to interact with the environment more than interact with people and dogs. And I think every single dog, you know, they have a mix of all those things, but we don't always get a dog who has an equal amount of those, then they usually vary from one to another. Um, so sometimes we can get dogs to actually have people confidence and dog confidence, but don't have environmental confidence. And and those types of dogs can be really confusing because I'll give you an example. That's the kind of dog I had one client where they would turn up to the park and the dog wouldn't get out of the car. So they had loads of trouble getting the dog out of the car. But once they'd got the dog out of the car, if the dog saw people and other dogs, it would run over to them and go and say, hello. We had a big discussion about that that dog had no environmental confidence, but it had people and dog confidence. So what happened is when you put it in the environment and there were these people and dogs there, that that would override and make the dog make the dog look confident, but then it would kind of create all sorts of other problems. Um for me, it's about really understanding how the different aspects when you when you just take your dog out into the real world, how those different aspects are actually impacting and influencing your dog's choices, how they feel, um, and they can all impact that as well.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting you you're treating them as three separate segments and and assessing each one, which is interesting. So um, let's say we have our average owner listening to the podcast um and they think that they might have one of the three things going on. Obviously, we're focusing on environmental sensitivities here, but um, what are some of the things that owners could recognise the differences between a dog that is socially uncomfortable or a dog that's just simply overwhelmed?
SPEAKER_01So if you've got um if you've got a dog who's um kind of socially uncomfortable, then again, if we think about like people and other dogs, that for me would be looking about what they do, how how they interact with people and other dogs, and what do they do when they see another person or another dog? Do you get approach behavior? Do you get avoidance behaviour? Do they kind of go and sniff the floor and pretend that they don't exist? Um, you know, there's there's kind of all sorts of and and a lot of the stuff is often subtle and that we that we kind of don't see, obviously. So sometimes people saying, like, oh my dog's quick with other dogs, um, and they kind of let them off lead and they run around with other dogs, but actually their dog's not interacting with those dogs at all, um, and just because they're there. Um so for me it's all about kind of taking time just when you're out, just taking time to observe what your dog's doing. And and and when when a the environment changes and you get a change here, whether it's the environment's changed, you know, the a dog's appeared, a person's appeared, like what are your dogs' choices? What what do they do? Do they, you know, because sometimes even if a dog is just kind of goes to sniffing the ground and ignoring it, it can still tell you that the dog's feeling uncomfortable. And then if space reduces at that point, so if the person or the dog comes nearer, then you might get a change in strategy from avoidance to reactivity. And so for me, it's it's kind of about really kind of being aware of the environment yourself and also observing your dog. Often we are kind of desensitized to our the environments that we live in. Um and sometimes we we just don't pick up on the things that the dogs are picking up on as well. So sometimes it's about being a little mindful and actually going, hey, what can I hear? What can I see? Um obviously we don't have the nose of the dog, um, but we can still observe their behaviours to see whether scent is impacting them or not.
SPEAKER_00That that that's interesting. Um something I've started noticing in Logan actually, like while that social element is there with dogs and people when like there's too much traffic going on, you can really see him start to be like, oh, and the environment is then starting to impact his behaviour, which is interesting. Bringing me on to the next question of what you've all just said there, do you think modern dogs are being asked to process more information than ever before?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, absolutely. Um I think, and this is one of the things I tell my clients a lot with puppies, and is about when they take them for their first walks to really slow everything down and to like don't take them for a walk around the block and slow everything down, give them time to observe the environment, then give them time to process that in that sensory input, especially with a puppy, when they get that information. Um and I remember a few years back talking to Cory Mend about this, and and she believes a lot of reactivity comes from that we don't give these dogs time to process information when they're out and about. And if we think about our world, um, you know, I don't know what it's like where you are, Claire, I know you're in the countryside a bit, we're a bit out in the countryside, but traffic like traffic, traffic is unbelievable. It's like so many cars on the road. And I also think as well, I've observed this over the last few years, and I think when it comes to scents and smells, I think, and this is a sweeping generalization, but I think that when you expose a young dog to what I would class as natural scents or like predatory scents, if you take them in the woods, and you might get a bit of kind of cautiousness and oh, that's a new smell, especially with a nervous puppy. Um, but they'll kind of explore those scents. And they're what I would call just like nature's scents. And then what we also have is is like man-made scent. And I think a lot of dogs can I think a lot of young dogs struggle to process those like artificial scents in the same way they process natural scents. And and I think that you know, like I know with my gun dogs, like you can put like you could put a young gun dog on a rabbit scent and they won't really recognise it. And then you put that same dog on a pheasant scent and their arousal goes up and they're like, whoa, my genetics tell me this is something interesting. And then you might get the opposite with the next puppy, where they ignore the pheasant scent, but they're into the rabbit scent. So we do know that the dogs are kind of naturally stimulated instinctively by by nature's scents because we breed that into them. Um, but I think, you know, I always think when we when we take a dog down a road and we think about all the the artificial sense of smells from vehicles and traffic and all that kind of stuff. Um, and I do think that dogs struggle to process that as well as they would with those natural scents as well. Um, and we see, you know, we we see a lot of dogs that are scared of traffic and scared of walking down the road. And I I do think plays a huge impact on that, not just air brakes and movement and everything else, but I just think for a lot of dogs, that kind of stuff is a massive sensory overload. Um something that that isn't that trap.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yeah. It's kind of like it's it's very much our human world, isn't it, as opposed to their their dog world. So that makes complete sense. Um do you think there are more um or certain dogs? I'm gonna say certain breeds, I know that that's probably generalizing, but do you think there are more breeds that are more sensitive to the world than others?
SPEAKER_01I know you're so yeah, absolutely. I think um I think you're working dogs, so I think like things like um Rotties, Durban Shepherds, they're bred um to kind of be a bit of their environment and they're bred to be reactive to the environment, like like that that's part of their job, um is to react to that awareness, that reactivity and kind of response to the environment. We've got um so I think often with those, especially with your guarded breeds, you tend to kind of get more barky reactivity stuff with your gun dogs. We also want them to be very hyper aware of the environment. If you put a spaniel in a wood and you want it to find all the pheasants, the one that's gonna be good at finding all the pheasants is gonna be the dog that's very hyper aware of every single thing that's going on in that environment. So, so we unconsciously like we genetically select for that, but then when you put that dog in like in the middle of a town or a city, um, it's gonna be hyper aware of everything, okay. And the thing is, is that kind of environment has a hell of a lot more going on than the wood has going on as such. So, and and what what I tend to find with the gun dogs is rather than them, they will become reactive to stuff and they can become reactive, but they just generally become overstimulated. And what happens with Spaniels is they kind of get um silly or busy as a consequence to the stress, and and then you can you can get reactivity with with some of them as well. Um you tend to find stuff like you know the you're kind of more laid-back breed. So if we were talking like Liam Burgers or St. Bernard's, I would expect them to kind of be pretty ch more chill about stuff that's going on, but they're not selectively bred, certainly not these days, to have that hyper-awareness of the environment. And I think it's understanding that if you've got a breed that's job requires it to be hyper-aware of the environment, then you need to be mindful that when you are out socializing them, when they're young and taking them out, that they could have they slightly they could be overstimulated and have like a sensory overload.
SPEAKER_00Interesting, yeah. Um so on the topic of that, obviously, like this kind of ties into like the nervous system and everything, doesn't it? And I think this is becoming a bit more of like a buzzword, um, a topic that's being talked about more. Um for listeners who might not be familiar with that concept I know we touched on this briefly earlier, but like what what three specific things would you look for in um an overwhelmed newness system in a dog?
SPEAKER_01So um I think it would be I think it would be pretty specific. I think it it manifests itself differently. So if we if we think about the nervous system, if if a dog goes into an environment and it fires up the nervous system, you've got your responses, um which are kind of your fight, flight freeze, fiddle about, um but they're kind of so so things that you that you might see if the dog's if his dog nervous system's overwhelmed, they might shut down, and this is the really important one for me, is that uh because shut down dogs are not behaving, because they're not showing any kind of behaviour, and because they're not showing any kind of behaviour that impacts the owner, that might be stressful for them, embarrassing for them, all those kind of emotions that if your dog starts being a bit of a div while you're out in public, you can suddenly think, oh, and we become aware of it because it affects us. And the thing is with shutdown dogs, is it often doesn't affect the owner, and so it can often be left, and these dogs are often left to and to and then they're not supported and they're not guided because their behaviour isn't inconvenient or a problem. Um so I think shutdowns really, really important, and that's the kind of dog who may kind of like you say, he may go quiet, they may kind of just start sniffing the ground a little bit and just pretend like filtering things out and just you know they become very small and they'll just like I'm just gonna pretend that I'm not here. Um and we have to understand that you know, if you've got a little dog who's kind of doing that behaviour, and then you've got like a big adolescent shepherd who's going absolutely mental, we still have to understand that their nervous system is still it's the same. Like what's happening to those dogs internally is exactly the same, just how they express that is very, very different. So, and and then we've got everything else in between. So we've got all those other things as well in between. So we might have a dog who explodes, and we might have a dog who shuts down, and then we might have that somewhere in between, where often I suppose that's where that like silliness might come in, which is the the fiddle about. So spaniels and spaniels are notorious that if they're getting stressy and they're overstimulated and they're struggling to function, then normally they get jumpy. So they start with they start leaping that gear, they're like head height, and is a very typical behaviour of a spaniel that's that's like overwhelmed and finding things too much. Um and I think um if you've got your kind of like guarded breeds, and you might get lunge and back, and you might get redirection onto you. So a lot of these dogs will will redirect and start to they might do the jumping, but they might do the grabbing and the biting um as well, along with that as well. Um so I think there's there's so many you often find that like when you meet a dog, you'll be able to quickly identify and go, the dog's overstimulated, and you'll see their strategy. You'll see their strategy. And one of the things with that for me is is it is a coping strategy. Like for the dog, if that's where the dog is right before any training, that's their coping strategy. That's they're doing that because that's making them feel better and helping them to cope with that situation. So for me, it's then about supporting the dog to deal better with the environment because the behaviors to me are just a symptom of the emotional state. And one of the things I would never do is suppress that symptom or shut down that symptom because that symptom is the conversation. That's that's the dog's ability to say to me. I'm doing this because I'm struggling. So I can go, okay, I can see that you're struggling, and I'm going to make these changes to support you. So so you struggle less. So I like to look at like when I see those behaviors, I like that's what I kind of look at is they're a symptom of an underlying emotional state. And what they also are is um is a conversation. It's the dog, it's the dog's way of having a conversation. So that's one of the reasons for me why I'm like not into kind of correcting that, shutting that down, that kind of stuff, just because it's inconvenient to me, is understanding what it is from the dog's perspective.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, completely agree. Um I think it's interesting that you picked up on um not wanting to suppress it. And you know, a lot of a lot of owners and probably a lot of trainers as well have made a lot of mistakes over the years where they may have unintentionally suppressed it. What sort of damages do you see from dogs that have potentially been through that suppression without the owner realising not meant negatively? Um is it harder to bring those dogs back or do you find different changes in them? Do they do they escalate? Do they do other strategies?
SPEAKER_01What do you find most I think um I think if I think if you have a dog who is behaving in a particular way, if you if you shut down or suppress the symptom, the dog's still having a bad experience internally, as far as I'm concerned. So I think it becomes harder to read the dog and understand. I also think that the dog, it may shut the dog down from communicating those things to you as well, because they don't see like I like my dog, I like I want my dog to go. Do you know what? If you're really struggling and you're losing the plot, let me know and I will help you. Um so sometimes what happens is the dogs don't see their owner as a source of support because that support hasn't been provided. And like you say, that's often done unintentionally. Um but I would like to build that back into the relationship. That's one of the important things for me, is that I'm gonna I'm gonna support you. And I can support you. Um I was talking to a client the other day, um, and one of the questions she asked me is is um, she actually has a faithful dog. And um she said, do do I need, does the dog need tough love? Do I need to do I need to to to toughen up and just say to dog, hey, you've you've got to deal with this. And I said, the problem is with that is is you it's like a 50-50. Like you're literally taking a chance, is it might and it might not. And if it doesn't, it's gonna be really costly to your whole relationship and everything else. And I always use it the analogy because people think like, if the dog's scared and I help and support the dog, am I reinforcing, am I reinforcing that fear? So, you know, what I always say to people is if you were going into a scary situation and you were like, I'm scared of this, and your mate was with you, and they just pushed you and went, Come on, do it, you can deal with it. You would feel unsupported. Now, if your mate grabbed your arm and went, Come on, we've got this, we'll do it together, you would feel much more prepared to challenge that. And I think as owners, like that's the kind of relationship that we want to build with our dogs in those situations, is you know, we want to kind of link link the paw and say, Come on, we've got this, we will, we will do this together. Because especially if you've got a dog who's nervous or fearful of the environment and and that's causing the overstimulation, then if you can be a support, once you you can become a support, and then once you are support, we can allow the dog to build confidence, but it ain't gonna build confidence overnight and part of a process, and but you know, say like safety, safety is such a massively like survival reinforcer, and it's so so powerful. Um and often when I'm saying, you know, we do socialisation and I just go think safety. I think if your dog feels safe, your dog will explore.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah. Safety is is key, isn't it? I think safety should always be the top of the priority list um for any any age of dog, but like you say, especially young ones learned about the world. Um this kind of brings me on to, you know, you talking about building confidence gradually and helping the dogs readjust into the environment. Are there any points where trying to get a dog used to something actually becomes counterproductive with their environmental sensitivities?
SPEAKER_01So I think um I think understanding the dog, I think understanding the dog's uh triggers. I think that there are some dogs who are going to always struggle with certain aspects of life. And I think that if you continue to pressure and to push that, um then you will probably just create yourselves a lot of problems. I think for me, I think it's absolutely okay to go. My dog doesn't like that social setting, and therefore I'm just gonna leave him at home. I'm not gonna take him into that setting if my dog finds that difficult. And what I just think is interesting with dogs is I think, you know, we've got this huge prefrontal cortex, much bigger than the dogs. And we as humans will go, we'll choose where we want to go, and we will choose where we want to go. You know, and if if there's a pub down the road that's rough as, you know, and there's a fight every night, and you walk in and you stick to the floor, you know, some people are gonna be like, Yeah, I can go in that pub and I'm okay, I can deal with that. And other people are just gonna be like, you know, hell we'll freeze over before I step foot in that pub.
SPEAKER_00I would be that person.
SPEAKER_01Um and things like you know, but I just think like nightclubs, you ain't gonna get me going, you know, I ain't gonna go to a nightclub. Um, but I'm quite happy to go to a quiet country club. And we have choices. You know, you might not go into a town centre at a weekend, okay? You might not go to a festival, we were talking about this before, you might not go to a festival because you can't cope with crowds. And you know, we don't we don't think twice about going, I'm not gonna go there because I can't deal with that environment. Yet we expect our dogs to kind of just learn to deal with all this stuff. That half that half the time we we don't put ourselves in those situations. Um so for me, I think that's really like like that's really important as well. Um my little Atom has taught me so much because you know you can take him out to the countryside and he loves it, but you know, you you you take him in a poor board town centre or uh what's it and he's just like he's just overstimulated by it, he finds it really difficult. Um and we go out and we do bits um and we build on that because I want him to have a level of capability to cope with that. Um but what I do is I don't go like I expect you to be do this. I understand that with an environment that he will probably need some support.
SPEAKER_00I love that because I think there's so much pressure, especially from social media, where we have to have these robot dogs and these dogs that can deal with everything, and that if you haven't got that, that there's something wrong. So I love the fact that you've kind of brought that up and it's about stripping it back, like you say, for the individual, isn't it? And you know, working to each person and each dog's capabilities.
SPEAKER_01I always remember um with pickles, um, so pickles had had she she was so busy and fast, she had a tendency to trigger um predatory chase in a lot of dogs. And she ended while she was young, um, she got attacked. And there was there was three reps within a month. One was two greyhounds, one was two border collars, one was a staff in her lab. And these were all in quite a short period of time. And what happened to her was then when when when a dog rushed up to her, she would actually start to panic and scream, was her initial reaction because she'd had these situations. Um, and then basically what happened is that that that screaming, because obviously when dogs will not rush up to you or flee, and you're out, is she would start to have a go back, and then obviously the dogs give her space, so she be then she she became reactive. And I remember that I was taking her out to these places to try and help her learn to deal with this and to overcome it. And the problem was is I can't control the environment. And what I couldn't do was every time she built her confidence up, and every time we made some excellent progress, somebody's bloody dog had come flying over and we'd be back to square one. And I remember one day I was like, why am I doing this? Like, like, why am I doing this? And I was like, Well, I'm doing this because I'm a dog trainer and should be able to fix it. And I was like, but do you know what? We can go down on that field where nobody else goes at 9:30 every morning, and she can run up lead for 45 minutes to her heart's content and live her best life doing her bestest thing without having to deal with anybody else's dogs. So that's what we did.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly what I'd choose as well. Why, you know.
SPEAKER_01Why am I doing this to this dog? Like, like, why she she she's had, I was like, if I'd been assaulted three times in the park, I wouldn't even bloody go. So what if I'm walking this dog every day in this environment where this dog's obviously, you know, and and I do, I think it I always remember Isla Fishburging reactivity, and one of the things I remember she said is she said, when a dog has a traumatic experience like that, she said, it changes every cell in that dog's body. Because it has to survive. And it and it the dog's never going to be the same again. The body remembers, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. And uh well, and and yeah, so I think it's um and I've had these conversations. I remember the kids a joke, hey, about twist. And I said to her, I said, if twist could speak to you and you asked Twist what she would what he would like to do every day, what would he say to you? And she said he'd like to stay in the house and do free shaping. And I was like, you know, so I always I always think that's always a good one, is just like if if your dog could speak to you and you asked them what they wanted to do every day, what what would they ask what would they say they wanted to do? And and that should be a big part of their lives. Yeah. As long as it's appropriate. Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Not like not like the the Malinmoirs like, I'd like to bite people every day, please. Like, let's not do that, guys. Listeners, let's not do that.
SPEAKER_01I think it's important for us to understand that, like, like what what do those dogs want? And and dog not all dogs, not all dogs are are massively social and they don't want to go out to the park and meet other dogs and you know, go to Costa Coffee or you know, go to festivals, game fair, whatever. Yeah. Um, you know, so it it's like, well well, do you need to take them? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think, you know, and I often find when you get people go like, like, oh I socialise my dog, and my dog's brilliant with everything. And I'm like, it was genetically, it was probably just sound. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Genetically, or the character of the dog was, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, I always talk about Stig. We we took him off roading in the Isle of Man when he was 11 weeks old. You know, we went on a ferry, he was strapped in the back of a Land Rover, staying in the hotel. But he was just that kind of dog. You know, Mia, I'd have probably traumatized her if I'd have done the same thing with her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh I always uh I can laugh at it now. I always thought I was this great dog trainer with Sky because I'd got you know got it all sorted and she was brilliant. She was just an easy dog, she made me look good, you know. And then Digger came along, you know about Digger. But yeah, it's uh it's it's funny, isn't it? Um, I think you might have already answered this because we've covered like some incredibly insightful and valuable information in this pod. But if there was one thing that you wish every dog owner, but especially reactive dog owner, uh understood about their dog after listening to this episode, what would it be? One was tight, really. I should have given you three, shouldn't I?
SPEAKER_01Sorry I lost expand. I think I think really it's about it's about taking that time out to to to watch the dog and look at the dog and really kind of I suppose approach it from empathy, from the dog like the understanding the dog's experience. I think I think that's the big thing for me is like being able to understand the dog's experience. We we get very wrapped up in our experience, and I think that social pressure, I think when you've got a reactive dog, I think one of the hardest things when you're out with your dog and it escalates and you get a reaction, is that if there are people around, like the pressure that people feel that they must do something in a very specific way, and it's about having that strength to say, I am here today, I don't care about them other people, and what I'm gonna do is advocate for my dog. Um, and I think like that's probably one of the most powerful things you can do with your reactive dog, and and and it's so hard to do, it's so hard to do because that social pressure impacts people so much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love it. I love it. And and it's something that a lot of my clients will will discuss with me. It's like, you know, you always feel like you've got these eyes on you. And I think that's why it's so important to to join communities that where you have people that are in the same boat, sort of thing, you know, um, so that you can get support there instead of the judgment, which brings me on nicely to do you want to tell people a little bit more about um where they can find you on your website?
SPEAKER_01So my website is www.waggowfins.com. Um and I have got social media. What have I got? I've got Facebook, um Waggle Wolfins and SmartPop. And I've also got Instagram, tend to just do stories these days on Instagram. Um and I've got TikTok, I'm Liberate Jane at Libera at Gundogs on TikTok. Um, usually just post videos and with music on. Avoid the drama.
SPEAKER_00I've seen you TikToking. Um yeah, I think that's it fairly. Fab. Well I'll I'll link I'll link these in the um podcast description for people to follow as well. But um thank you very much, Jane. It's been wonderful chatting with you again. And I'm glad our audio issues, audio issues held out this time. For context, anybody listening, the first live I ever did with Jane was absolutely horrendous on my side. I couldn't hear a fucking thing. Like ended up talking over here and all sorts, didn't I? Yeah. Right, we'll leave it there, everybody. Thank you very much for tuning in and we'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.