SPEAKER_01

Right, everybody, welcome back to another week, and I am joined by the lovely Sarah Roper today. How are you doing, Sarah?

SPEAKER_00

I'm good, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for having me. No, thank you for coming. I'm really excited to talk to you because um having lived a multi-dog life and having incurred masses of stress within that multi-dog life, I could have done with you like 15 years ago. I mean you've had me for what, 10 now? Maybe nearly. Yeah, you came in at like the right time where things were like just settling, but weren't quite there. Um, and so I love following your content and your stuff. Um, let's start with let's start at the beginning. Who are you? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00

Well okay. I have not had this question for a while. Um, so I'm Sarah Roper and I am the Multi-Dog Maven. I am based uh like Loughborough, Leicestershire, Nottingham kind of end nowadays. And um I run an online membership called the Maven Crew and I do one-to-ones, um, but my specialty really is multi-dog households. I've always had a multi-dog household since I was 18 and now well 40 next year. Um, yeah, I've had quite a few dogs, and I've had I started with two, and you know, the numbers have gone up and down, but my maximum was seven, and I'm currently at four, so I've got three generations of um miniature long-haired ashans. Um, so I've got grandad, his daughter, and then her daughter, and then I've also got a token labrador, which wasn't really the plan, um, but failed foster, which I know that you know you you know all about failed fosters. I do. Um, and yeah, I've had a right mixture of breeds over the years, and uh I've had rotty mixes, I've had um like Mastiff Crosses, I've had a Bull terrier mix, uh Dobman, um, but then throughout most of it, I've had at least a token Daxi. I've had four Daxis at once at one point, and um, but I really went more into having gun dogs alongside um the Daxies, and I suppose that's kind of how I've ended up with a Labrador, which you know I would have never chosen to have a Labrador. I love them, I've always loved them, but they're a very common breed, and I don't tend to go for common breeds. No, that's it, she she is, she's a good egg blesser. Um but previous to her, my hot dog was a flat coat retriever called Merlin, and um yeah, yeah, that's kind of that's me, and that that's what I do now. So um what else do you want to know?

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is a podcast about reactive dogs. Have you had one? And if you have, tell us about that reactive dog and what life looked like for you back then.

SPEAKER_00

Oh okay, I've had a few, I'm not gonna lie. Um, but it's really the reason why I got into the industry was my first big dog. Um, she was called Bella, and I'll take you right back. So I was just a few weeks before my 18th birthday, I got my own place. I was sort of renting, but it was like owned by Mum. Um, and I was finally getting my own digs kind of thing, and I always wanted uh not just one dog but two. I wanted a big dog and a little dog. And uh boyfriend at the time, his parents had a collection of Rottweilers and Rockwiler mixes, and um Macy, which was their bitch at the time, um, was about to have puppies, or at least well, they were planning on having puppies, and I loved Macy. She was just I just wanted to take her home. I wanted Macy, really. She was just lovely, um, a real matriarch in that in that pack, and they were all outdoor dogs, um, they were all guard dogs, really. Um, but Macy was sometimes allowed in the house, but she was a real a real sweetie. And um they ended up looking after, you know, their their friend's American pit bull cross with a boxer. Um and Macy came into season and they made it happen. Um I watched I watched the mating, uh and and I'd I'd just got the house at this point, so I was like, okay, so uh big dog is being made, is you know, in the oven. And um, but I want a little dog and I think it'd be better to get a little dog just before this one, you know, because I know everything there is to know at 18 years old, not. Um and I remember the conversation, I was kind of I'd very often go down to Manchester Dog's home at that point. Uh, I'd not quite got to the point of volunteering there, but I would when I picked uh the boyfriend up from work after I'd finished work, it was right near um the Manchester Dogs home, and I'd quite often be early, so I'd I'd just go and have a nosy. Um and there was one there that was uh some kind of Daxy mix. I think it was probably a Daxi Crosswithered Bastet, something like that. Um and we talked about it, and it was I wouldn't even say it was a small dog, it was just on short legs. Um and um we talked about it and I was like, yep, let's go and get it, and and he'd gone. Um and then we we went round in circles and we're talking, and we're like, okay. And I said, Well, I'd a my best mate as a kid was obsessed with dogs more than I was. Um and her, like one of their family friends had like a gag that love axes, uh, long hairs and smooth heads, and I just loved them. But that was the only real interaction I'd had with them. So when I said to the other half, I want a sausage dog, because that's how I knew them, I wanted a sausage dog, in his head, we didn't figure this out till much later, in his head it was a bassit hound. Okay, yeah, I can see what him yeah, and in my head it was obviously a dash hound. Um and he was allergic to dogs. Um, but it was you know, he'd moved in with me and he was all you know game for having a little dog. And there was a paper called The Loot, and it was like a free ads paper at that point, and it you know, internet wasn't like commonplace at that point, it was still dial up. Um, and um so you'd get a you you would get a puppy out of the paper if you didn't know the breeder, that's that's how you'd do it. And I remember looking for dashons, and uh the only ones that were available were miniature long heads, and he said to me, Well, you know, we can't have a long head, and I says, Well, that's the only ones that are available. Um, and he says, Well, I'll pay for it to be shaved every month. So we went and got Roscoe, um and little I eight weeks old, gorgeous, little shaded red thing, and um I went and got him, had him a few weeks, really struggled with the house training, and then uh Macy had the puppies. Uh I think she had eight, eight or nine, and by the time they were five weeks, she'd had enough because she'd been totally shut in with them, she wasn't allowed to come out away from them. Um so his parents kind of said to me, Well, you know, you either take one now or you know, Macy's gonna kill him, basically. Um so I took the runt because this is me, or the smallest, let's say. And um as a girl, so I had a girl and a boy. Um, I took her home and she wasn't fully weaned. Um, she ended up with like blood in her poo and it was diarrhea, and you know, and it it was a lot of work. And after having Ross go for maybe a month at that point, I was a bit like, I am sick of this house training, Mark. And Daxis are like one of the worst breeds to house train anyway, but you know, you live and learn these things. And I remember saying to the other half at the time, Oh well, you know, if we're having this dog now, like you're gonna have to sort the house. Um like I am really struggling with the house training, um, and she'll have to be your dog. But then, of of course, then you know, because she's ill, me being me, I take over, um, and she ends up very much mine. And she was actually smaller than the Dashund when she arrived, and she looked, when she grew up, she looked like a big staffy, red, uh, with the black muzzle, um, and and you know, a big staffy, basically. Probably more she was about 25 kilos, so she, you know, she was about the size of Ada, my lap now, um, a decent sized dog, not gymongous, but decent sized dog. Um, and I I got just more into learning more about dogs, and I'd always grown up with dogs, but these are my obviously my own first ones, and I ended up going there, it was a place just down the road, like I could walk to it less than a mile away, and it at the time it was called Um My Pet Stop and it was run by Pedigree. It's the centre is now owned by uh the Dogs Trust, and it's a big multi-million pound place. Um, and I went to puppy classes and I took Roscoe and then I took Bella and took them individually, and all was going well, and I really kind of got into dogs more than it. I was like, I want to know everything about the behaviour. And I was doing uh a modern apprenticeship, an advanced modern apprenticeship at that point in uh electrical engineering. So one one week a month I'd be at Stockport College, and I just spent the time I was in college nattering to the tutor about dogs, and in my um lunch times, I'd go walk down to the library and just swat up on dogs and dog breeds and anything, anything that I could. And our weekends were spent by going around local pet shops and um we had we had tropical fish as well, so we'd go around those kind of places. But for me, I was like, oh, or charity shops with second-hand dog books, and you know, I've just became absolutely obsessed, which is very much for me as a character, anyway. If I'm gonna do something, I go all in.

SPEAKER_01

It's all dogs.

SPEAKER_00

No, yeah, it's all dogs, exactly that. Um, or animals as such, um, not but mainly dogs, and um she got to I've started taking it to like you know, the like the fun dog shows, um, where you just prance around a ring and hopefully you come home with the rosette, and that became like the summer. Um, which which one can we go to now? And um we had a whole summer of it, and but she started with a bit of allergies when she was about eight, nine months old. And uh I'd had her insured, and everyone told me, Don't you know she's a mongrel. You know, why why are you insuring her? And I'm so glad I did. So we had lots of tests, but it was very much of the well, you know, she's not she's not itching once yet, we can't do the proper tests, we can't really do much. So on and off she'd start to um chew herself. She'd she'd be itchy, but then she'd actually chew holes in her side. So I've got pictures of because I used to the work that I was doing was I was making artificial limbs at the time and upper limbs, so um arms. So quite often, if you've lost an upper limb, um, especially if it's above the elbow, there needs to be some kind of straps or you know, harness to keep that on. So I was making all of these, so I made a whole system for Bella to cover up her holes that she chewed herself so she couldn't carry on chewing herself. And I made her a beautiful collar out of leather and all sorts. Um, but I'd be up every morning at the crack of dawn making sure she was walked, you know, because I worked and all of that kind of stuff. Um and then I remember going, I travelled all the way down to London. My mum lived down there and took the dogs down. So this is all still, she's under 12 months. And um I took her down there and we'd done this big, I think it was like the all-about dog show, or something, you know, the wet nose show or something. It was like massive down there. A big fun dog show, and I think they did a heap for scruffs and and um you know, loads of stalls, big massive thing. Um I got her in the ring and she snapped at the dog next, and it was I remember it now, it was a red uh showcocker that stood next to us, and it the dog had done nothing, and she just launched at them. She didn't make contact, but it was like such a shock. I'm like, that's not my dog, like what's going on, and I didn't you know you kind of go, but then you think okay, it's happened, but you kind of forget about it. And then I remember going to I mean previous to that, we'd been on the local dog park where we walked every day, it was like across the main road, big park, um, backed onto a golf course, and they'd the Manchester Dogs Home had actually done a dog, a fun dog show to raise funds, and we'd been in the ring, and we're about to come out of the ring, you know, everyone's got their placings, can't remember if we got placed. Um, and this I think probably a golden doodle, a black one, but a a golden doodly type, um launched at Bella just as we were about to come out of the ring, and again didn't make contact, but I can only think that that was the start because the next dog show we went to that's that was the London one, and she suddenly had this reaction, and I was like, okay. Um, and there'd been, I think I'd been to probably one or two other little ones, and I'd been with other friends with their dog, um, and I think I'd gone, oh I'm just going to the toilet, just keep all the bella. And they'd said that she'd tried to launch a child.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And not make contact again, but I was a bit like it had not happened, I'd not seen it, so I I was a bit like, really? You know, didn't didn't believe it. Um and I was going to like um the the the different levels that they did for the um dog training courses, just general bog standard stuff. And I think over the summer I probably had a break and then gone back in the September um and I'd signed up for like a fun agility course because I was like, well, what else can we do? Um and we turned up and she just was barking, lunging at every dog, and I was like, What is going on? Um and the trainer was great, you know. She's like, Okay, um, we're we're gonna work through this, and she showed me what a clicker was, and she said, every time it looks at a dog, she looks at a dog, get her attention back, click it, reward it, you know, and I put the work in. And there were two dogs specifically that were the same age as Bella, another couple of crossbreeds, about the same size, um, that always made a beeline for her. And I think they were just like, Yay, let's play, you know. If they went off lead to do the agility stuff, it was a bit like, oh, I'm gonna have to look after my dog now. Um and after I think three or four months of going consistently to these classes, there was just one day where these two dogs kind of went, yay, you know, straight up to Bella, and Belle just gave the right body language and just wagged a tail, loosey goosey, and the trainer clocked it and she said, just let her off. Just let her off. And I was like, Okay. And they played, and it was beautiful, it was beautiful. And coming up to this, there was um oh like just after this, they were having like their big Christmas party, dog party, basically, Santa Pause, pictures with Santa Pause, all of that kind of stuff. And I wasn't gonna take her. Now, in between, I'd lost Roscoe, that's a different story, and I'd got Ziggy, another uh mini-long Daxie. Um, and I just thought, I'm not taking Bella to the Christmas party, it's just gonna be too much hard work. I'm not gonna put her in that position. I'll just take Ziggy, he'll be quite happy. Um, but because this had happened, I was a bit like, ooh, should I take Bella? And I took the pair of them, and they both had a great day, and Bella won something, and I think it was a bit of you know, they'd all seen how much progress she'd made, and and we got this big hamper and it and it was lovely. Um and then my life fell apart. You know, me and the boyfriend split up, and I had a string of partners that you know, in short in quick succession, really, that'd kind of move in and and then move out, and um, I was all over the place. And I'd started to run my own business. I'd started to run a dog walking business. And there was one of the things that happened during that time that I made friends with the young lad next door, and he he was about 12 or 13, but he was obsessed with dogs and he wasn't allowed a dog. And he says, Oh, you know, he'd put a thing through my door, you know, dog walks 20p or three or something like that, and I'll bless. Yeah. Um, and I took him out on a couple of dog walks with me, and he was fine. And I think um, you know, I wouldn't do this now, but he's one of these days. I think I'd gone out and he says, 'Can I take Bella out?' And I says, 'Yeah, you can take her out, it's fine.' I mean, not that I would ever dream of doing this now, but um, and I don't think he did anything wrong, but she loved to swim. And don't forget, we've still got all these allergies that are ongoing, and I'd got to a point where it was like three times a week I was bathing her with Maliceb, and she had to have all these supplements in her food, and I had to spray her coat with Cotex, and you know, there's loads of stuff, and once a month I'd have to take the day off work to go all the way to the Liverpool Universe for a treatment. It was like the first she was part of like the pilot study for the vaccinations that they make that is specific for allergies or for that dog's allergies. Um, so I'd have to take her for that. And um, so she took him, uh he took her for a walk, took a ball, she was obsessed by a ball, and um he'd thrown a stick into it was a reservoir basically on the big park opposite, and it she'd gone for a swim. And he ranked me and he was panicking, and he says, She's caught a leg, she's caught a leg. I says, Right, I'm on my way home. Um and bless him, he'd you know, took note of what I told him about first aid and he'd took his sock off and he'd managed to find a hair bobble and put the so the sock over her foot and and she'd sliced the back foot sliced through the um tendons. Oh wow. Just on the back, yeah. Um straight to the vets, they operated, reattached everything. Um and you know, I mean it it could have happened to me, it could have happened to anyone. I don't think it's because he had her out, it probably a bit of glass or whatever it was. Um I'd I'd worked at my pet stock for a very short while at one point, and then I'd left. And the trainer who had originally, you know, helped us had also left. And obviously I've started my I've probably just before I started my own business, this part, and uh I suddenly saw a resurgence in her behaviour, um, in the aggressive behaviour. And I think part of that was other people were walking her a lot more because I'm trying to have to work more because you know I've got a small zoo at this point of guinea pigs and rabbits and birds and two dogs and um three dogs at that point. I'd got another Daxi, and um so you know, boyfriends at the time would take her out or whatever, and I kept getting reports back that she keeps going for people. I'll throw the ball and she'll go for someone. And then one of the days I must have come back while Bella was on a walk with someone, and a bloke had come like basically frog marched the boyfriend at the time and the dog back to mine to have a chat with me. And he says, you know, there was a big red mark. I wouldn't say broke the skin, but you could tell it was teeth marks down his arm. Um, this is your dog, your dog needs to be on a muzzle. And uh I was like, okay, and I I asked, you know, what had happened, and they the boyfriend had said, Oh, I threw a ball and the bloat was running and they got in the way kind of thing. Again, not right, we don't want it happening. Um, and at that point I rang the trainer that had left um my pet stop. I'd managed to find her number. I'd heard that she was doing stuff for herself. And I said, You need to come out and help me with Bella, it's come back with a vengeance. Um, please help. And she came out and she said, Oh my god, Sarah, I'm so glad you got in touch. I've got all these clients that need a dog walker. Do you want to set up as a dog walker? And that's kind of how I officially set up. I was already doing bits of boarding, I was already working at weekends at pet shops, you know, helping out, doing um uh what they call it, transport for the local kennels. Like if it was um oh my brain. But if people got took into care and they had animals, so special services, um, the this kennels that was local would get that call to say, someone's getting, you know, someone's getting sections, someone's getting taken into care, um, social services, can you come and um can you look after the the animals? And it'd be my job to just go and get so there I go in my little Citroen 2 CV classic car and pick up a cat, a dog, whatever. So I was doing all of these things anyway and learning a lot of handling skills the hard way. Um and you know, and kind of said, Yeah, I'll set up a dog walking business, um, which then you know lasted 16 years but and various areas, but um and she said to me, She said, There's been more than one occasion, things are bad, um, but I recommend that you get her spade. And she was about two at this point. Um, and I was like, Okay, if if that's what you're thinking, you're professionally got the degree, you know. I was like, who am I to say otherwise? And originally the plan was that Bella was going to carry on that line for them. Being guard dogs and whatever. And um and I thought, well, if that's what needs to be done, that's what needs to be done. End of. So I booked her in, left it till the right time. I knew about kind of leaving it halfway between seasons and things like that. And um and I'd volunteered at Manchester Dog's Home and I'd had a um Dobman in this time as well. Um and things sent to settle down, which was good. And I'd started up the dog walking business, and I was having like daycare dogs at the house, and she was fine. And then about four months after she was spayed, I was out with two ridgebacks that I used to walk daily, and Bella, and she knew them really well, and we'd gone on this field, and I was with again boyfriend of the time, um, and I was blasting her with the ball. And and I and I got to the point where I felt like if she'd got her ball, I was confident that she wouldn't do anything. And there was um a black dog on lead, Labrador type, old black dog, on lead, right the other side of the field, and I'm talking five, six, seven hundred yards away, like right the other end. Um and she just legged it towards this dog. Legged it. And went to attack this old dog who was doing nothing. So I legged it over, but it takes some time to get there when it's that kind of distance. Um apologised profusely to the owner. Um, don't don't know if any damage was done, but as essentially there is damage done, isn't there? Whether it's physical or not, there's damage done there. Um and I said to boyfriend at the time, I says, uh, I'm gonna, you know, like I've got the ridgebacks. Um let me leave you with Bella. I'm gonna quickly run up and grab the van, bring it closer so we can just get her in the van and get and get out of the way. Um so as I go walking up the track with the ridgebacks, I hit here a kerfuffle and Bella had launched up and gone for his throat. Ooh. And there was marks. Yeah. Uh did it didn't pierce the skin but had had gone for him.

SPEAKER_01

And this is somebody she knew.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay. And we had got to the point pre-Spay um that she was only safe with people that she knew from a puppy. She she got alright with him, and she didn't know him, but well, she knew him from about probably about 10 months, but she was fine with anyone that she knew from a puppy, but anyone else, it had become a no-go. Um so I put them all in the van and I drove back and I rang the trainer. And I said, This ain't like I don't I don't know what to do. She said, It's too far now. It's gone. It's too far. It's happened too many times. Now, this is the dog that is my first own dog, and that I'd learnt a lot of skills with, you know, I'd gone through all the different methods of getting her to walk nice on lead. I'd had all the compliments from people who you know, she walked beautifully. Um, she's such a good dog. Um, we'd done all of those things together, and then it was like, I I don't know what to do. And I knew I needed to do something. Um, and I battled with myself. I was like, this dog, as bad as she is with the allergies, she is not a dog that could just stay in a yard like her parents. It's not fair, it's not ethical. Um, nor is it how I felt at the time, nor is it ethical that she has to live her life on a muzzle when she can't have a ball when she's on walks. And I remember hearing that the dogs trust had a few like long-term dogs like that would never get re-homed. And I remember ringing them and begging them, saying, Look, I will pay for everything that she needs if you will have her. And they said, We won't knowingly take on a dog like that. Which I get now, but hard to hear at the time. Very hard to hear at the time, and I just didn't know where else to turn. But I knew that the attacking an old dog from such a a distance and the going for the throat were real deal breakers. Um and I, you know, I'm 20. By the time by the this point, she's she's just coming up for two and a half. Um and I made the decision to have her euthanized. Um now, considering she was a a regular at my vets for obvious reasons, um, and she loved the vets. She was fine at the vets, never an issue there. She loved it, um, which you know, small mercies. Um, and I remember ringing them and saying, I need to book bell her in to be spade, and obviously, because we were there so regular, we had a good relationship, and they were saying, Well, what do you mean? And I explained about her behaviour, and that was the first they really knew of it. And they said, Well, you need to speak to a behaviourist. I says, I have, and it's someone that you know, because actually this vets was in the same place that we both used to work. Okay, um, I says, and that was her answer that it's she's too far gone. And I was like, So I had to battle with them, and they did agree in the end, and that was the hardest drive I've ever had to do. Was well, I spent I sent the boyfriend pack in for the night so I could spend the night with my dog. And she slept on the bed and did my head in because she never slept on the bed, she slept downstairs, so she didn't settle, but I was like, I just need you with me. Um took her to the vets, and it was one of those she was a she was a young, healthy, other than allergies, dog, so she didn't just go like that, it was heartbreaking. It took at least 15 minutes for that heart to stop. Wow, and that is a long 15 minutes, and then driving her body from there to Manchester Dogs Home because they did I don't know whether they still do, but they did have their own cremation place. Um I could have her ashes. Um and it was the hardest decision I've ever had to make. And I got Merlin and probably about four months after that because there was such a hole in my life, but I also knew I wanted something that was sociable, that could go out on dog walks with me, professional dog walks with me, would be fit enough, active enough to do that, um, and something totally different from Bella, um, which is how I ended up with a flat coat. Um, but that's it's because of her, and I know that most trainers have this kind of story or a story that you know that dog that got them into it. Um I learned so much with her, but I think I'll learn even more after, as in because of her. And I look back now, and and even I'd say in the last five years, I've even had more realisations of why it went wrong and why her behaviour changed. Yes, my life went to shit. Yes, I was her primary caregiver, so that's gonna affect her behaviour and the breeds she's made up of totally. Um I also kept her half and half, at least initially, as a bit of a guard dog, as in where I lived, if I was at work long hours, it was quite kinder for her to be outside with a kennel, you know, in and out and have a chew and all of that kind of stuff. But she was constantly watching the world go by. She was being a guard dog, and then I'm expecting her to be a pet dog as well. Um the allergies, of course, she was gonna feel shit. And she was we had one of the summers when we had that with the I think when we went down to London for that particular show and she started, the rest of that summer she was fine, but it was just after that show that I started on the antihistamines. The antihistamines made her drowsy, so she was fine when she was on those. Then she comes off the anti-istamines and comes back to doing uh classes and she goes, No. And for a long time it was very much only in that situation where there's like a ring that she would be reactive, and then it you know, she generalized it elsewhere. Um not having consistent handlers, not having me doing stuff, and the the one thing that's probably about five years ago that I actually went, oh for fuck's sake, at myself. Sorry if we're not allowed to swear in on this, but here we go. And if we don't was it was probably only six months between the injury on the back leg and me putting it to sleep. Mm-hmm. So, and tendons being sliced through is not just a month's recovery. No. Um, so there are times where I'm like, fuck's sake, I'm kicking myself. But I also know that if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have been able to help all these other people. I wouldn't be able to understand that feeling of being deflated, of that crushing shame and that feeling of failure when I'm helping other because I do help you know reactive dog owners too. Um and it's because of her. Now I know at the time, I'm not gonna beat myself up over it, I know at the time I made the right call for me and her with the information that we had. And I thank her for being in my life every day. She was an amazing dog, taught me a hell of a lot, got me really started as well in the health side because I had to learn a lot because she had all of these acts, she was allergic to grass spores, she was allergic to fungal sports, she was allergic to flea back, you know. She there was a massive long list of what she was allergic to, which I do think some of that was because she was not weaned properly and you know, and and all of that. Um but she she gave me a lot, and she still does to this day. Living with that was really, really hard. And while I have had reactive dogs since, I've not had a dog who is aggressive towards people since. Yeah. Um game, innit? It is a totally different ball game, and I do think the spaying at that point for her did not help. I and I have seen that in other dogs where they've called me in, they've you know, they've been having issues with reactivity, aggression, whatever it may be. They've just got the dog spayed before I've got there, and they've had a few months of it all been nice, and then after four months, when all the um hormones kind of go away and you know dissipate, they see this resurgence in this behaviour, and it it's like, well, actually, you've took the hormones away that calm them down. Now I'm not saying that for every dog, and I remember us having the conversation when you were thinking about with dogs. Yeah, just thinking you've got a bit more context now, yeah. Um I'm not saying for every dog, but for her, it didn't help. But yes, now I recognise there was a lot of a lot of other factors at play as well. Um, and of course, I blasted her with a ball all the time, for Christ's sake, you know. Um and like constant adrenaline high, never mind risk of injury, and then on her that back leg, which had been fucked. Um, you know, I just all the things that you'd go, I'd never do that again. Well, I've been there and bloody done him and learnt the lesson and paid the price. Um, but yeah, she was a cracking dog.

SPEAKER_01

That is some story, and I I was you've basically answered all my questions. We've never talked about this dog, have we? No, we haven't. You've mentioned her previously, and you've obviously told me about the outcome, but not in that much depth. And throughout that, I was going, you know, I think it's a trainer thing as well. You're like, oh yeah, red flag, oh yeah, red flag, and and it sounds like everything compounded into those final two incidents that ultimately you know led you to make the decision that you did. If somebody listening to this maybe um relates to your story in some way, perhaps um their dog has done something similar, and maybe they've thought about that, but they've kind of you know it's very easy, and I can put my hand up here as well, where you think no, I think it's the kind of thing to do is to euthanized, but then they have a better day and it gets forgotten about, and then you know, life goes on until the next time. What do you think reactive dog owners need to be looking for and are potentially getting wrong? I don't like using the word wrong, but I potentially like skirting over issues that might they might need to think about this more with their dogs. Big question, I know.

SPEAKER_00

It is a big question. I think certainly what it came down to with me was all I could see was that while you know the boyfriend at the time wasn't gonna like press charges, I'm like, if it can happen with him, it can happen with anyone, and I am and and I'm running a business at this point as well. Um you know, I cannot I cannot battle through the courts for my dog, I can't do it. I can't and this you know that that was my thinking at the time. I was like, that's where I'm gonna end up. If I let this carry on, I'm gonna end up with a big court battle. My dog's gonna get taken off me. Plus, she had a bit of um American purple terrier in her, and there was people in that area, it wasn't the greatest of areas, who would stop me and go, Oh, that's a nice pit. And I'm like, She's not a pit, she's a rotten cross with a staffy, you know, whatever. Um, because it was illegal. Um, and she was only a quarter one, but she had that look, and so I also had that in my head as well of she's not registered, she's gonna get taken off me, I'm gonna end up battling through the courts, and that's no life for her going through that. And I think for listeners, being realistic about what it would mean if these instances either got worse or happened again, what are the potential consequences? Because we both know that we can all make mistakes, and other people can certainly make mistakes if they are in charge of our docs. And what is the potential fallout of that? And we can, as professionals, we can manage, manage, manage, manage, manage, you know, and put things in place, but there's still shit that can go wrong. Now, because shit can still go wrong doesn't mean that you need to go and have your dog put down, but you need to think long and hard about what it would mean and how important it is to ensure that there are fail-safes in place. Um I do think I did the right thing for her at the time. If I'd have had more knowledge at the time, would that have been a different outcome? More than likely, I think. But I didn't, and I think I saved her from being in a court battle, from being in those police kennels. Um, and the better outcome for her was that she was put to sleep. Um for listeners, find someone, a professional, a real professional, not a cowboy who thinks they're a dog trainer, um to chat these things over with, with a timeline, be mindful, think about what's going on for the dog at that time, what's going on for you at that time when these incidents occur. Um, because it's only with hindsight I've been able to put things together and learning more. And I think having a professional to talk all these things through, to bounce ideas off. Yes, a professional can tell you what to do. It's up to you whether you make that call or not. Um, but at least you've had another perspective because sometimes you're too close to it. And even as professionals, you know, we do it to each other, don't we? We're like, oh, I don't know what to do about this with our own dog sometimes. Um, so having someone that you can, you know, and it and it doesn't necessarily need to be someone coming and sitting in your front room, I don't think. Just being able to talk through incidents without even seeing the dog. I'm not saying they should be, you know, diagnosing the dog and whatever, but just being able to have a Zoom call, for example, or a phone call with a professional just to go, this has happened and this and this, and them ask the key questions to help you decide what the next step may be. You may never speak to that trainer again, you may use someone else for behaviour modification. But I do think having someone who knows what they're looking for, like you said, you know, you've listened to me, and I've been very careful of putting things in there without going, I know I messed up here until the end.

SPEAKER_01

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But but you if this if I was a client, you'd have been going ping, ping, ping, probably more of all the red flags. So I think that's probably the biggest thing I'd say, and you know, reach out to Claire or you know, I'm happy to do these things as well, but just chat them through because the consequences are heartbreaking. So taking being proactive rather than trying to shove it under the rug and go, oh well, you know. The the other side of it was that same trainer. Um, we used to go camping, um, and that's where her ashes are, Bella's ashes are, and Merlin's and God knows how many of my other dogs who have passed away since. Um, there's a place in Bakewell, uh, just outside of Bakewell, where all my dog's ashes are, and it's called Nine Ladies' Stone Circle, and we used to go camping there, and we used to take Bella and uh Ziggy and Jazz, and um we'd all just go and set up a little campfire, and there was um and the young lad that took Bella out that day when she did a leg, um, was there with us one night, and a friend of ours had got an a shepherd, and she was lovely. She was a lovely shepherd, you know, very much like Sky, that type, that kind of temperament, like just beautiful, nice dog. And we'll sat there by the campfire one night, we're having a few drinks, and then all of a sudden she just launches at Ash, the young lad. The shepherd. Yeah, okay, and caught caught his nose with the teeth, it was bleeding. Again, nothing like you know, facial surgery or anything, but it was out of the blue and it was very uncalled for. So, you know, Ash comes from a divided family, so he's with his dad at the time, my next door neighbour, when we're camping. And of course, then mum gets on the phone, oh that dog needs put him to sleep, blah blah blah. And I'm like, oh, and I said, and I got the same trainer involved. I said, because I maybe just get a statement from you know, or get an evaluation from a qualified trainer. Um, and the upshot of that was the dog had an ear infection. There's there is usually an explanation, yeah. Um, and the dog was fine and the lad was fine, and you know, and all of that, and the dog didn't need to be put to sleep. So I think that perspective is everything, it's knowing these things of the dog will act out of character at times, and quite often because it's in pain. Well, it was in pain because it's bloody ear.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's he's so easy to miss because they're massive at high degree. Yeah, yeah, good there. Yeah, they really are.

SPEAKER_00

Um Bella obviously was, but I think she also got high off the adrenaline with the chasing the ball, which is a natural painkiller.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like self-medicating, isn't it? And then yeah. Yep. Um, couple of things. Firstly, I'm sorry for the the view change if you're watching this on YouTube. I don't know what I've pressed. I can't get it back to this double. Well, it hasn't changed for me. It hasn't changed for you. Okay, it's changed on my end, so we'll probably go through a few screen changes there. Firstly, sorry about that. Um, the next thing I want to say, and this is a difficult question, but I think it will be useful for the listeners. There is a certain category of people who train with dogs that would say what they say in terms of like different labels. You know where I'm going with this, right?

SPEAKER_00

I do. And I do, and there is an appropriate thing to do with Bella on this one, but you carry on.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And and I want to kind of get this across because this is what dog owners, but especially reactive dog owners, are faced with. It's like, you know, on one end of the scale, we're going, right, this is A line crossed that this is not acceptable behaviour, and then like behavioral euthanasia is being recommended. Right. And then you get other people on the other spectrum that will say, I can fix that. And I can use this tool, or I can use or I can do that, and and we can fix this problem so that the dog doesn't do it again. What would you say to people who are being who have that in their ear, basically?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, yeah. So I totally understand that at that moment you're helpless, you are lost, you are looking for uh, you're looking for answers, you're looking for some way to sort the dog out, to sort your problems out, to make sure that you can live your life with this dog and the dog be safe. And I I totally understand that while you may not normally be that person who wants to put tools on the dog or use aversive methods or you know, choke the dog until they stop doing whatever they're doing, you're not normally that person, but you've got to that point when you're like, I just need to try something. My standpoint is I understand it, but I'm personally not that person who could do that. Now, an example. I have been and done some of it. Um, I remember putting a choke chain, very old school, on Bella to see whether that would help any. Um, before the issues, really, of yeah, I was just like, oh, I need to sort this dog loosely walking down. And it was not the choke chain that did it, and it was not the you know, yank and crank. Um, and when things were bad, I remember watching our actual, you know, our real favourite Cesar Milan. Um if you can't hear the sarcasm now, listeners. Um and I remember doing a lot of the methods that he said with Bella because I, you know, I'm like, I need to be her boss, I need to make a point. And I remember sitting in her bed and eating. I remember eating out of her bowl. I remember holding her up, like standing above her, so she's between my legs, and hold like grabbing hold of her chest under like the barrel of her chest and holding her up towards me, so like legs are out there and heads here, and you know, so she's and I was told that that was you you're telling them who's boss by holding them up that way. Do you know what made the dog worse? And I think she was just confused. Like, when we you use treats, what what is this? So while I understand it when you're in that uh mindset, I would much rather have a happy dog than a that can express its personality than be totally, totally shut down in fear of pain that is being applied through these t tools. Because to me, if I have a dog that is that shut down that cannot make it make any choices of its own for fear of reprisals, for fear of pain, then that's not my dog anyway. And I think that's that's the key thing for me. It's the I want my dog to be here and happy and confident, and if I have to use methods that will crush their personality, then that's not my dog anyway, and I'm doing that to them, which is a complete relationship breaker, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I want them to trust in me, I want them to go, help, I want help, Mum, what do I do now? And you go, it's all right, come on, we're going this way, or I'll get you out of it, we're good, we're good, I promise we're good, we'll sort it. And if you know, sometimes shit happens when you when you're on that journey with a reactive dog, shit happens. You get that bloody dog that comes over when you've made that progress and suddenly you go backwards, but you've got enough of a positive association, enough of a bond and and connection with that dog, even if they go, yeah, but you didn't quite have that, they kind of go, Yeah, but you've had me all those other times, so we can get over this rather than fuck that, I'm off. Trust in the bank. Yeah, yeah, totally. A couple more questions. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_01

It does, yeah, it does, and it brings me on nicely to the next one. So let's say somebody has been through this, and perhaps they're leaning towards using more harsher methods to kind of get the dog to, you know. I don't think yeah, to comply. I don't think a lot of people want to be like that with their dogs, and I think it's coming up more and more where people are going, no, I'm not comfortable doing that, which is great. Do you ever see dogs that have like had these sorts of methods that don't only go into a shutdown frozen mentality? Do you see them going all the ways?

SPEAKER_00

Uh definitely have seen them. Especially on shock collars or e-collars, whatever you want to call them, they while there is obviously being pain applied, they they learn to just work through it and carry on regardless. And if anything, it it ramps up that behaviour and makes it worse because it's almost like they need to get to that state of ridiculous amount of arousal and adrenaline to overpower that that pain to be able to still perform the behaviour that that no one wants. Um, and I do think that there is for a lot of dogs a lot of fallout with that. It's not that they just shut down, you do get the resurgence, you get the I'm gonna overpower this. I've tried many years, and I I tried it with Bella, the citronella spray spray collars. Um she just learned to bark through it. Habituated to it, yeah. Yeah. She just thought I'll bark until it's empty. Thanks. Um I tried it. I tried the the training discs. I don't know if you remember those. Heard of them, never come across or use them, but yeah. Um they're like a little bit of ribbon, and then they've got like essentially a collection of discs, like um dog tags on, and that they obviously make a clinking noise, and that you meant to throw them either at or by the dog to interrupt a behaviour. I tried the rattling in the bottle of the stones, I tried the spray water. Um I did used to use pet correctors, but that's a different thing. We'll come back onto that one. Um, and if a dog isn't that aroused or that in that state, it's gonna happen anyway. And if anything, you're just annoying them, so they're more likely to carry on. They're like, ah, oh well. Or you're getting more annoyed at them, so they're like, oh, mum's joining in. There must be something to be annoyed about, and it just ramps up. Now, quickly on pet correctors. So for um for the listeners, if you don't know what a pet corrector is, it's a small canister of compressed air. Um, you press it and it goes, basically. But it's a very loud uh hissing noise, essentially. So in the in the animal kingdom, a hissing noise is back off, you know, cats, geese, um, snakes, and all animals know that this noise is, you know, um it's it's a precursor to an attack. Um I used a pet corrector when I first started dog walking, and it wasn't for the dogs that I was walking, it was to get other dogs away. And I don't I won't regret using one. I I have no regrets. Um, I would um desensitize the dogs I was walking with, you know, do a little bit of far away and then give them all treats. So they were a bit like, oh okay, it's it's it means food's coming rather than it's something to be scared of. Um and in my very, very early days, I did used to use it for stopping dogs jumping up. I was very strict with the owners um to say this is only what it's used for, it's only behind your back. You always pair it with a reward, you're pairing it with a verbal cue, and you should only ever use it a couple of times, and then you will never need to use it again. Um, and you don't use it for anything else. But still, it's not something that I would do now. Um but and pet correctors have worked to scare briefly, scare herds of young cattle away. I found when I'm walking through fields with dogs braver than I am. Yeah, yeah, I don't I try not to do that, but sometimes you just get stuck when you're pro-dog walking. But um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Interesting, very interesting conversation, and thank you so much for sharing your journey with us because that has been some journey. Like, you know, it sounds like you had a lot of good people around you and a lot of support and advice from the beginning with Bella, which probably ultimately made it um easier in some ways, um, despite despite the outcome. Um yeah, I think have you got anything else that you want to add? Um not that I can cover we've covered a lot, like the listeners. Yes, I know. Honestly, you guys are very lucky because like I've known you how long? Well, it's it must be coming on for ten years. And we can talk, but I've never heard this story in as much depth. So this is this is gonna be a special episode. Um, but yeah, if you're if you're good and you've got nothing else that you'd like to add, I think we'll leave it there. Let us know where the best place is that people can go and find out more about you and what you do today.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um, best place really is Facebook. Um, I do have a website, it is hardly ever updated, so you're better off on on Facebook. And it's Sarah Roper, the multidogmaven. I am on Insta as well, same name. Um, if you have to go on my website, it's multidogmaven.co.uk. Um, and I have got three books out there, and they are all on Amazon under my married name, um, which is Sarah Bartlett, and uh they're on Amazon, and they're called Another Pup, uh Puppy Prepared, and the Complete Pop Star Guide.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, puppies, interesting. I think I feel another podcast coming on someday. Because we know we can talk for hours about dark stuff. Oh yes. Oh yes. Well, I will make sure that the links for your um pages are in the description on the podcast on YouTube. Um, and again, thank you very much for joining us, Sarah. No worries, thank you for having me. Thank you for listening, everybody. We'll see you on next week's episode. No idea what it is yet, but it'll be coming next week, same time, same place. Okay, ciao for now.