Chapters at The Book Shop - Episode 3 - An Evening with crime author Sam Holland

Welcome to Episode 3 with Crime author Sam Holland 

Due to the nature and the subject of her books LISTENER CAUTION IS ADVISED.

We had a brilliant evening with Crime author Sam Holland. Author of The Echo Man series.

1 - The Echo man 

2. The Twenty 

3. The Puppetmaster

4. The Countdown Killer

5. The Killer in Room 5 - Latest.

If you have not yet been introduced to this series and enjoy crime novels and true crime you are missing out by not reading these. 

Listen in our interview and the Q&A from attendees. Her about how she writes, what she is currently working on and what she loves to read.

Credit to Muzaproduction :) 

Credit to ikoliks_aj spring easter music :) 

Transcript

0:00

It is lovely to have you with us again. Thank you for me. You are more than welcome. We're very excited about the new book. I got the proof a while ago. There's not going to be any spoilers for anyone that hasn't read it yet. I've read it and I know a few others of you have been in and got it and read it. No, there won't be any spoilers, so um please don't worry. Most of you probably do know. Sam Holland is actually Louisa Scar. That's your real name. That's my real name. Yes. So can you give us a little bit of background about your writing, what started you, and why you have to have the different names? Okay. Um, so I didn't start writing until quite late. So I worked in recruitment first, and then I worked for 15 years in HR. So I worked for companies like Siemens and BQ doing their HR, and then um you can't ignore it eventually. Like the the need, the want to write eventually overpowers everything else. And um, so I wrote I had written a book before which was terrible. And it lives in a drawer and will probably stay in the drawer. I like the idea anyway. But then I wrote another one and uh I used that to get an agent, and I quit my job. It was the right time. My son was about to start school, so I quit my job, did some freelance writing work, but then finished this book, got an agent, and got a publisher. That all makes it sound very easy, but it was like there's a lot of waiting and a lot of like I applied to like 25 agents or something, and then um then we rewrote it together, and then we got a publisher. So that was um called The Dream Wife, which is actually out of print now. Um, but I wrote two more books for Orion, which Canelo republished, which you can now get, called Ask Me No Questions and Nowhere to Be Found. Yeah, yeah. So they published recently, so it meant that somebody actually read them, which was nice. Then I wrote, I wanted to write something a little bit darker and a little bit where I wasn't holding back or I could just do what I want. So I wrote essentially the Echo Man just in my spare time. And that got republ that got picked up by HarperCollins, and because essentially the two names comes along, because when you when you write a book, you get something called sales track, which is essentially how many your books sell, and any publisher and any agent can look that up. So when you go out, if you've got poor sales track, which I had because and my books went out in pand in the pandemic and that sort of thing, you need to reinvent yourself. So that was why the second name came along. Okay. So Sam, because we wanted something a little bit more gender neutral, um, because there are some men who will only read books written by men, so we wanted to sort of sweep them up with a bit of illusion. Um, and then Holland, just because I was watching a lot of Marvel at the time and oh really Holland. Um not because I particularly love Tom Holland, but it's a good surname. I didn't realise that he has a brother actually called Sam Holland at the time, which had I known I might not have done it, but it doesn't really matter. Um, so there are a few people called Sam Holland in the world, it's alright. So, yeah, so that's where Sam Holland came along. Um, and then at the same time as we pitched, we sent the book out to HarperCollins, and we had a number of publishers come out and wanted it. Another one was called Canelo, and we didn't go with them, but my agent knew that I write very quickly and I'd already started writing a police procedural. And he said to Canelo, do you want another book from her? Um so they picked, they signed me for a five-book series, which is starts with Last Place You Look, and is all the Butler and West series. Yeah. And they wanted their separate, they wanted a separate name. Publishers like their own little brand that they can do stuff with, so that's why I went with Louisa Scar, because I I my name is I well I married a scar. Yeah. Um so yeah, and it's quite a good prime name anyway. So we thought we'd we might as well use it for something, yeah, something crimey. So that's how I ended up with two names, two publishers. Um yeah, now I have three because I have Audible as well. So yeah. So they've come along more more recently, and I've written a book for them, um, and which will only come out in Audible, so only come out in audiobook, and that comes out in July-ish, I think. Oh, okay. And what's that? Is that is that crime police procedural? It's a police procedural. I can't, yeah. Of course it's a police procedural. It's a serial killer police procedural, it will be a Sam Holland. Okay. Um we've got two really good narrators. I so we've definitely got Billy Howell, who you might not recognise his name, but you've seen him in quite a few things. He was in The Perfect Couple and um on Chesel Beach, and you might recognise him. And then Holiday Granger is my second narrator, hopefully, if she's signed the contract, so you should know who she is. She was in Strike and the Catcher, and I really like her. I love her. She was like top of my list. I was like, can we get Holiday Granger? So hopefully we've got a female and a male narrator and they'll narrate it. And um, yeah, it's really that's really exciting. That is really exciting, it's a completely different world. Like, because I don't have to do any promotion, I don't have to I'll never see a physical book. Yeah, it only comes out in audio, so it's it's like, oh, this is nice. Wow, okay. Yeah, going back to something that I picked up on what you said just now. You said that you wrote that first book and now it's in a drawer somewhere, yeah, but then you wanted to write something darker, yeah, I can't remember. And so that you could you could have free will to kind of do what you want. And all the times that we've sat and had these chats, I've never picked up on that before. What made you want to write something darker? Were you reading darker stuff or watching darker stuff? Well, I I grew up with Stephen King, James Herbert, all that sort of stuff. So anybody's read those, and I was too young to read that sort of thing. But so I always grew up with that, and then I was kind of aware when I was writing a crime book that I couldn't it's there's a limit to how violent you can get, and I just thought, I'm just gonna write something and just go with it. Yeah, and actually HarperCollins have been very good at they've never censored me in that way, they've never said don't use that language, or they pulled me back a couple of times when it wasn't like essential for the plot. There was one scene which was more violent than it ended up. She was like, What is going on with this? I was like, Okay, we'll take it back. Brain it in a bit, we'll rain it in a little bit a little bit, and then there's uh there was a thing in the 20 when um the main character Adam is a little bit more over the line than he should be. So she pulled that back because she said nobody wants Adam to be like that. I was like, okay, fine. Is that the one where he was in the strip bar? Uh he's in the club. Yeah. Oh, in the strip uh they're in the strip club in Countdown Killer. Sorry, it's a while to work it out. No, he's it's the one it starts in, he's a club, he's in a club and he's picking he's just drinking and picking out women basically. Yeah. Um, so he's a bit of an anti-hero, but he was too much of an anti-hero. Um and they and there was a dog that died in the original draft of the 20th century. I remember that. Um, and she said you can do it, just be prepared. And I was like, it's fine, it's no, it wasn't essential for the plot, so the the dog gets put in a cupboard now. He lives. Yeah, yeah. We had I remember we had an in-depth conversation last time about how writers you are or particularly advised, you just you don't kill the dog. Don't kill the dog. Don't you don't kill the dog. Don't kill the dog. You can kill a hamster, a hamster dies in Puppet Master, nobody cares about that. Umbody's ever cared about the hamster. Well, something else dies in something as well. But yeah, no, nobody cares about the hamster. The dogs know. The dogs are always fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's that's not on. I should put it on my website, the dogs are always fine. Yeah, the trigger warning. Yeah, because all the the police dog handles the first question people ask is the dog? Okay, the dogs are always fine, but like the dogs. Yeah, it's like an unwritten rule. Yeah, yeah. Some people do get away with it, but I'd rather not, I can't be bothered. Yeah. So obviously, then you had the success of the Echo Man, which is the series we're looking at this evening. Echo Man, the 20 Puppet Master, Countdown Killer, and then The Killer in Room 5. Yeah. Echo Man, I still think should be a film. If I mention it on Twitter or anywhere like that, I'll still tag Sky and Netflix best I can and say you really need to pick this up. My agent has film agents and scouts that he talks to every time, and he's always trying to push it and trying, you know, but yeah, it's so it doesn't seem that way, but it is incredibly hard to firstly get your book optioned, which just means they have the right to wander about and try and sell it to producers. Maybe we should send one to Reese Witherspoon because she buys the film rights to everything and then gets them. Yeah, she she's not she's a she's a clever lady. Yeah, yeah, she gets on the ground really early and buys it for she buys takes the rights and she gets it for her book club. So if you're with Reese, you're maid. But yeah, no, um, we've never got because you have to be published in America to get Reese. Is the Echo Man not in America? It is, but yeah, that was a long time ago. We've missed that. I think it's too violent for Reese, isn't it? It's a little bit too violent for Reese. Do you think it is? Yeah. Maybe there needs to be a Reese equivalent in the crime world. So we live in hope. One day something will get picked up. But yeah, um, the killer in room five isn't supposed to be in the same universe, but it sort of is because I can't resist adding things into the universe, but it's very much more a standalone. Yeah, and and that works really well for us as booksellers as well, because obviously I think the The Echo Man is still our best seller in the shop across the board for at the end of every year, um, across all the years since it's come out, it's still our best seller. Um, and we still absolutely rave about it. Has everybody read The Echo Man? Love that, yeah, absolutely love it, and um, yeah, you're quite right. You can then go on to read the 20 as a standalone. The 20 again is very standalone, yeah. Because again, it wasn't supposed they were all supposed to be standalones. I can't resist a series. I get too attached to people, and then it becomes a series. So the Echo Man was supposed to be standalone. Obviously, there's the end, there's the cliffhanger ending, and then the 20 was supposed to be a standalone, but there's a slight link into Cara, and then the Puppet Master picks them all up, Countdown Killer picks them all up, but then um killer in room five was supposed to be completely separate, and it is really, but there's one so if you imagine the universe, and then most of it's down at Out of Southampton, Nick. So the Killer in Room Five is Basing Stoke Nick. So the only person you will recognise is if you've read the Countdown Killer and Rosie Ryder is in Basingstoke, and she's the big boss, yeah, but you barely see her, yeah, and you don't need to know that either. You don't need to know that, no, no, they don't mention it, they don't talk about it. Um, but yeah, so Killer in Room Five, absolutely loved it. I'm not gonna give away any spoilers, but I gate crashed one of my mum's Scottish holidays on the coach again. You know, I've I've gate-crashed a few now, and I took that with me, and there was a particular bit in there, I'm not gonna give it away, where I was reading it really late at night and in the dark, obviously, in a hotel room on my own, and I got to a particular bit when she was sleeping over, okay, yeah, and I had to get up and make sure my door was locked. Absolutely scared the juices out of me, and I did genuinely get up out of bed and went and checked the door. That wasn't a case of oh have I have I locked it, or that's really freaked me out. That was like, oh god, go and make sure that door looks deliberately. I wanted to freak people out. And it worked really well, and I couldn't put down, absolutely loved it, absolutely loved it, and I messaged you afterwards, and I nearly messaged you that night, it was quite leg and said, Oh my god, that's really put the willies up me. That was terrifying. But I thought, no, I can't message you, I can't start messaging authors when it's like approaching midnight. We wouldn't have gone into the morning. No, that's true. That's true, yeah, that's true. So tell it, give us a little bit of background then about the clearing room five. So essentially it focuses on one question, which is how does Joe Sinclair? So Joe is in um a mental hospital, uh, psychiatric hospital, um, he's locked in, he's been there for four weeks. How does he know the intricate details of a murder that's happened on the outside? So um Abby uh is the detective, which we meet in this, and she's just returned to work. It's her first day back after being suspended. One of her colleagues was stabbed on her watch, and it's her first day back after that was all investigated, she's been cleared, and that's her first job is to go to uh Hollow Pines, which is the name of the psychiatric hospital, it's a private psychiatric hospital, and to interview Jo, who's had this dream about this guy that's murdered. And she soon realizes that the details that he's talking about are exactly the same. How does she know what's actually happened on the outside? So there was a murder last night, and that's so it's all about that investigation, and how could he possibly know when he's not left the place, he's not spoken to anybody. Um, so it's all about her. Um, she's come back and she's forced to work with her, uh, was ex-boyfriend, was colleague, now is her boss who's been promoted above her. She has to work with him, which causes a few problems. Um, so yeah, it's all about that investigation, and as you mentioned, there's part of it, she goes into Holopines and stays over with the with the hope of trying to find out what's going on. But there's quite a few. The other thing which I haven't mentioned is connected to Holopines is um five women who are locked away for um murdering somebody. So they're in um they've been declared insane and they're in a psychiatric hospital, so they're in another ward, which they can't get to, but they're there. So like an alternative spice girls. Yes, like an alternate, they are an alternative spice girls. Yes, they've all got their own special Yeah, I didn't think about it that way. Yeah, yes, they are an alternative spice girls. There's five of them, and they've all done these horrible murders which you discover throughout the book, um, and they have a really important part to play in everything that happens. So yeah. God, I loved it. It's so it's a lot, it's a lot of fun. I wanted to write something that was sort of I mean, psychiatric hospitals is just like catnip to crime authors. It's just like Did you go and visit any? Because in this book, the in the book, it's a private one, isn't it? It's a private one, yeah. So it's not something that's funded by the NHS or anything like that. So I deliberately didn't want to write something that was supposed to be accurate and it's not supposed to be like a nice environment, and the guy that runs it is a bit creepy in itself. Um, so Dr. Devaney, it's a bit something a bit off about him. Um, so yeah, it's all about and he can so it's because it's private, he can doesn't have to follow protocol, he can do what he likes, so it's a little bit like that. Um, but yeah, um, yeah, I did a lot of research into psychiatric hospitals and what they're supposed to be like. So NHS psychiatric hospitals. Um, but yeah, this one isn't supposed to be quite quite towing the line. Yeah, so I know when we've talked to you before, we've talked to you, we've talked to you about the team that you have behind you. You have your forensics, you have your retired police officer, you have someone who's a nurse, who probably got a nurs anesthesia. Yeah, um, and you've got all these different people, and I know you've been down to Netley. There we go, it takes me a while. Um, you've been down to Netley where the police dog handlers are and all that business. So, have you added an extra person to your team because of the how this book is so different to the others? Have you got you know a couple of extra new people? Yeah, so Sam is somebody who um actually I went to school with, he was in my brother's year, so uh he's a clinical psychologist. I went to school with him, he was in my brother's year, everyone fancied him. Um my friend snogged him, but anyway. So he I've known him my entire life, and he's a clinical psychologist, so he's helped out before. So uh Under a Dark Cloud has again something when basically I go, I need this. What psychiatric condition could fit this? And he goes, This or this. So for this one, I said this is the setup. Um, because obviously I came up with the hook, published not a hook, came up with a hook, sold it to my editor, and then went, oh shit. So I had to speak to Sam and say, right, what's what should I be looking at for this? And he pointed me in the direction of all the things that are kind of covered. I don't want to say what they are, but they're covered in the book, which could be a feasible way of this happening. Yeah, because he knows the ins and outs. Because he knows the ins and outs. So yeah, so Sam, um, I've known him a while, but yeah, he's he's mentioned in the the ending. But apart from that, there was a lot of medical stuff again, so Matt was creating things and saying no, this doesn't happen, and whatever. Do you let them read all of it or just their bits that are relevant to them? No, Matt's never read uh any of uh the whole book of any of them, even when they're finished. He's got them all. I send them every each time. He's got the whole lot, but he never he's never read them. His mum does. His mum takes him away and reads them. Um he's a busy man. But I cut out the bits and send them to him, yeah. Um and he goes through with a red pen basically and corrects them. And I have to give him a bit of context, like this is a detective talking, this is a forensic um pathologist talking, whatever, and he will correct things. But yeah, I I mean I get so much wrong, he's always correcting things. Like I put stomach at one point, and he was like, I assume you mean abdomen. I was like, yes, I'm that he's quite like blunt nowadays, he doesn't hold back, he's kind of like, You mean this, don't you? And I'm like, Yes, I do. And then he puts like, I should be glad you didn't say tummy. I was like, sorry. Right, but sometimes I just forget and put it in, and yeah, so yeah, yeah, that's because you've got a little um what tummy? Wait, he's not so little anymore, he's nearly my height, he's up to here. Oh, is he? How old is he now then? 30. Oh, cool. I still think of him being as about like I don't know, eight. It'd be 14 in August. Yeah. Yeah. So when you do events like this, and I know that you travel around a lot and you quite often travel with a crime partner, you know. Sometimes you're with, well, we've seen it, but you've been with Liv Matthews and Heidi Perks and loads of others when you've gone to crime festivals and things like that, and obviously events like this where people ask questions. Do you ever get people that say, Well, you said blah blah blah blah blah and that's not the case. I don't you know I get well I don't get them. Sometimes it's deliberate, and I did say at the end of this one, look, I haven't like I haven't completely stuck to most of this is correct, but some of it isn't. So like forgive me for the stuff that isn't. Yeah. Um that shouldn't be your biggest worry. Well, I do like to get as much as possible correct. Yeah. Like I do like to do my research and make sure it it's like it's as it's as accurate as I can get it. Yeah. But I'm not a doctor, I'm not a I'm not a police, whatever, I'm not a psychiatric nurse. So there are things that I'm gonna get wrong. Yeah. Um and I always put at the end all the mistakes are mine, they're not, you know, it just it just happens. But I think most of us as readers, we just want to pick it up and enjoy it. We're not gonna we'd we we generally people don't look at things like that. I mean, I've read um we've got our little crime little bunch, aren't we, that like to read crime books, and um, you know, I've read some real stinkers where even I know things that are wrong, but as a reader, you want to be entertained and you don't really mind that much. I mean, I I try and avoid risk reading police procedures because so many authors get such big things wrong and it drives me nuts. Like certain things, like arrest them. You have to arrest people. You can either interview them, it's not resident, caution, like caution, you have to caution them. Like this, it's the and I read one book recently where they go from voluntary interview to charging them. They don't even arrest them in the middle. I'm like, you've missed a yeah, maybe that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. So it's stuff like that that just it's like there are basics that you can easily find, just don't be lazy about it. But yeah, you're always gonna get something. That is one of the things that makes your book so good, though. You know when you're reading it that you've researched it and that what you're reading is what would actually happen in that situation. Hopefully, I know there's stuff I get wrong, and certainly in the police dog books, I get some stuff wrong, but I get as much as possible without without guessing Paul, Paul's my police dog handler, to sit down and red pen everything. Like he's a busy man, I can't expect him to do something like that. Yeah, you know, it's some things are wrong, but I try to get it as close as I can. Yeah, and the same with your locations as well. I know with um with the earlier ones, they're based in Southampton, they're all based out of Southampton Central, and in fact, you had the in the puppet master, she jumped off the itchywitzel bridge, and then somebody threw himself under the train at Southampton train station. Southampton Airport Park, yeah. And so you did like research for that sort of thing, and then in understood at airport park when I went, oh yeah. Yeah, it's so true though, because when I read road names, like when we've read the when I've read um like Gallowswood and Memorial Park, and they're all based around Romsey, aren't they? Yeah, Gallowswoods, New Forest. Memorial Park's Fording Bridge. Yeah. Again, I had to be a little bit, and I say at the end, like if you live in Fording Bridge and you know Memorial Park, you know it's not quite like that, but yeah, for the purpose of the story, I had to be a little bit. Always used to get my phone out and look up the word the the uh roads when you list road names. It depends if somebody dodgy lives on that road, yeah. Then I'll sometimes like Randall Road is a road that I'll often use if I just want a fictional road. Okay. So I'm not very original, so it's often Randall Road. Um, same as I think said to you, like the tech guys are always called Greg, because I'm really not very original. Well, you say, well, the gr the the tech guys are always called Greg. Always called Greg, and um Neil's always a shithead. Uh the nails are always the unpleasant ones, but yeah, um I don't know. There's certain little quirks I come out with, and I kind of think, oh whoops, I should have spoken that. But Randall Road is often a fictional fictional road where somebody has been through. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not sure. So the people can't people like me who look up all the road names can't go and find it. No. Some of them are real, but some a lot I'll make up. Yeah. Did you do the did you go to Basin Stoke for this one? I didn't. I know Basin Stoke vaguely because I've been to the station a few times, but I didn't go and walk around Basin Stoke. But I would just sit on Google Maps and work out if you could walk from where to where to where. When I follow you on your Instagram and I see that you've gone somewhere, I think, ooh, I wonder if that's real book. Sometimes. Sometimes, sometimes not, sometimes. Yeah. Or it just finds its way into a book. I think, oh, that'd be a good location, then it goes. Yeah. Yeah, and a good chance to scout it. Yeah. Um, so we've talked to you before about your characters, your main characters in the first four, and who would you would have play them in a film. You can give it, you know, if it if it was a film or TV series, whatever, you can give us a brief lowdown, and then I want to know who your people are for this one. For this one. Um, so it's easier to say that one because I I remember I've completely forgot. But Killin Rune Five, uh Abby, it's Daisy Edgar Jones. Okay. Anyone's seen her in bros things. Um, Mac. Is Jamie Dornen because Jamie Dorn's hot. Scott is I've forgotten. Leo Leo Woodwell. Oh yeah. I remember we had a conversation with you round about um the countdown killer interview, and you were watching TV, you'd started writing your book, and he came on and you went Scott. That's my character. And then you said you went away, went upstairs and just rewrote it completely so that he's Leo Woodwell. So he's a bit bl he's a bit blonder than he started out. And then um Joe is Robert Patterson. Oh okay. Um because I think Robin Patterson's a bit odd looking. And he kind of works, and I basically I saw a picture of um Robin Patterson playing piano, and in the book, Joe Sinclair is a pianist, so I was like, well, there you go. Lots of shots of Robin Patterson looking like intense and slightly disturbed. He's got one of those faces, hasn't he? So that's that's who he is. So yeah, I had three put three handsome man men on the wall for that one. So um when you wrote this one then, did you use your same writing routine? You have a big whiteboard, you have all your little stickers, did you did you plan like that? Yeah, I did. I had it, so I use all the the beats mapped out. Um and I've talked about Save the Cat before, it's sort of when you have certain um beats that you hit. So there's always if you watch a lot of Marvel films or things like Jurassic Park, Ghostbusters, you'll notice a certain pattern in how the stories work. Like there's a midpoint reversal, so the action goes like that, and at the midpoint, there's always something that goes horribly wrong. You think they're the winning, they're winning, they're winning, something goes wrong, and they go, and that's called the midpoint reversal, and happens roughly halfway through the book, and then you have end of parts, so then you have something called something is something is dead, all is lost, dark night of the soul, when everything's gone horribly wrong, and your hero is sat at the side of the road crying often, literally, and then in part three that that's breaking down to five parts. So I I follow that beat sheet and sort of roughly map it out, and then I just start writing it, and eventually you get a draft, and then I go back and refine it. But um, yeah, it was fun, it was fun to write. Yeah, how many had did what how did you set your target? Was it um so many hours a day, or was it so many words a day? When I'm writing that first draft, it's three thousand words a day, is my target, which I can just do, but they're not good words, they're very bad words. They're not like I don't go back and think, oh let's make this sentence sound nice until no, it's just bash it out, let's get the story down, and then I go back, plot it out, and then the last run through is making it all sound nice, so making the prose sound good, and making sure I haven't used like one book I've just I'm in the middle of writing, I've used water under the bridge eight times. Eight times. I always said water under the bridge eight times. It's like good god, no. So I had to like but like you say, with your first draft, you can do that because you can go back through and be like Joey and use a thesaurus. Yes, yes, absolutely, yeah. Not quite as badly as Joey, but hopefully, yeah. So you can go back and rewrite things. And at what stage do you send it off to your editor or whoever? When it's when it's as good as I can get it. Okay. So um I know a lot of awesors just bash out a first draft and send it off, but I kind of think that's wasting your editor's time. Yeah. Because if there are things that you know you can fix, just fix them. So I get it as far as I can get, and then at the point when I'm literally like, I don't know how to make this better, then I send it off to them, and then they come back and say, Well, this is what needs improving, etc. etc. etc. And then you revise it again, which is fine. Okay, something I've not asked you before then. When you um sent Jasmine a copy of Broken House, at what point was that in your that was was that before the editor? No, that was post even copy edit. Really? Yeah, because I think I literally said I can change your name at this point, but that's it. Yeah. Like, because of the proofread, you can so you go, you do structural edit was when literally they give you massive chunks and you have to like structurally change things. Some people have a line edit, which I never have, which is when they're going back by line and saying, This doesn't make sense, this line doesn't make sense. My that for me is all usually in the structural as well. I get both at the same time. Yeah, and then copy edit is when they're looking at it and going, These dates don't make sense. Um she's wearing a dress here and she's wearing jeans here, or continuity and things like water under the bridge is used eight times. If you have a notice, which sometimes I don't until that point, and after that, then you have proofread, which is literally checking for typos. Okay. Um so it was at that point I said, I can I can swap out your name, but that's it. So she just turned around and went, I don't want to be murdered. I would have said, Fine, we'll swap out your name, and that's okay. For those that don't know, and I know most of you do, Jasmine spent about 18 months, two years trying to convince Lou to name her as a dead body in one of her books. Um at the time, I think you'd only written Gallows Wood. Yeah. Um, and you were thinking about Memorial Park, and you were saying, No, it tempts fate, it's not something I ever do. And for those of you that know Jasmine, she's very persistent and she broke you. Yeah, and so you agreed to put her in your book, and she doesn't have a very nice time of it. She doesn't have a very nice time. And Lou was very good. She did warn her, she sent her the proof and said, Please read it. She doesn't have a good time of it. I can still change your name. Um, but in it as well, yeah, with the wrong name, but it's like I had to go and identify my daughter's body, which was very weird to read in a book. And I know a couple of ladies who read it who know Jasmine um were like, that was very that was that was very sad to read. It was, wasn't it? You were one of them, Sarah. Yeah, yeah. When I had to go and identify Jasmine, yeah, that really got you, didn't it? Um, but I remember she read it through and she said to you, yeah, it's okay. And she was like, she says my name 95 times. Something like that. She's very dead. Yeah, yeah. And so that that was the point then. It was at the point. It was at the it was at the last, yeah, the last point, yeah. Because I kind of think up to that point that a lot can still change. Yeah. Um, but once you get through the copy edit, that's the always the point when I think I'm sort of done. Like it's practically done now. I just have to check what the proofreader changes, because sometimes sometimes proofreaders do odd things, you have to check what they've done. Um, but generally that's then it's done. And that's quite a long timeline as well. That to get to that stage, isn't it? Do you find normally that you've already started writing another book by then? Yeah, yeah. So um I have to put books down and pick them up. So actually, was it last month or the month before? I was writing one, but I had to keep on putting it out and putting it down because I had like I can't even remember now. It was like copy edits for the dog four, and then I think I had I had to structural edit the bone book, which comes out next year. I had to proofread another thing. They just kept on coming in, and I was just like constantly. So I think I worked on about five books at various stages during that month, like constantly dropping things and picking it up and putting it down and remembering okay, that's who's this about oh, yeah, I remember and getting back into it again. So uh yeah, it's quite right. Well, that's interesting that you've just said that because I know that Leicester Square, which is book four in the Lucy Halliday series, is out in October. That's done, yeah. And you said Bone Book next year. Bone Book, so Bone Book was I don't I can't remember if I've discussed it at all, but Bone Book is set in New York. It's about a guy, it's completely standalone. Ah, right, that was gonna be my next question. Completely standalone, yeah. It doesn't fit with anything, but essentially it's about a guy, he's English, he's moved to America, that's where his dad lives, and his family own a bone museum. So they own a museum full of um human bones, essentially, and his job is buying and selling bones and running this museum, um which is legal in New York. Not legal in the UK, but legal in New York. There's a guy that actually does it that we went out to see, looked around his museum, it was really cool. Tadra you want to set one out in the Bahamas or somewhere. Exactly. Um yeah, I'm assuming. Well, no, murder. Anyway, so he um he the museum's going through financial ruin basically. He needs some money and he gets sent the bones, perfect bones of a human hand through the post. And he, because he needs the money, he sells it, and then the next day uh the body of somebody turns up in the Hudson River and they're missing a hand. So it's all about him, this museum, and this mess that he gets into with the thing. It's really fun. That sounds fantastic. It was really fun. It could be a series at the moment. We've just sold one to HarperCollins, but it's set in New York, and it's just yeah, it's a little bit different. And yeah, it was my hobby book last year. Um, oh, talking of hobby books then. So I I see on your Instagram the kind of things that you read, and you've got quite a broad thing of everything that you read. It's not very broad, is it's just romance and crime. Yeah, well that is broad to me because I read crime. So you read so broad, and it's only two genres, there's a whole load of one book. Didn't you at one point weren't you thinking about writing something like that? A romance, yeah. It's done. Is it? It's it's written, it's not done. I wouldn't say it's written to the point that I don't know. I'm just doing a last read-through to correct some stuff, and then I need to send it to my agent, I need to send it to some friends and say, What do I do with this? Like it's too long, it's too unwhate. Um, and then I'll get yeah, I'll get some edits back. But yeah, it's written. It's written, it's got Jeanette in it. Whatever Jeanette. Has it? They go to a funeral home. Yeah, because she gave you, she was here at one of the events, and she then she took me to the funeral home. She gave you a tour around the funeral home, didn't she? So it's it's fun. It's about um a group of six um uh six friends who meet at university, and then one of them um is an alcoholic and dies, and it picks up 20 years after university when they all get together for his funeral. And it's about two of the people that met when they're at uni and then one. So it doesn't sound very cheerful. It's not very cheerful. Okay. It's not very cheerful at all. Yeah, but it is a romance, it's not a wrong com, there's no com in it. Okay, it's a romance, but yeah, it's it's fun. Oh about the history of these people and um how they all yeah, how they all met, and then yeah. So it's it's written. Yeah, it's been a bit of a labour of love, literally, for me, but yeah, and who will you write it as, or have you got come up with another name? It has to be another name, yeah. Sarah. Well, I don't want a new first name because juggling two first names is bad enough. So yeah, it is by the side. No, we'll see if it goes anywhere, like see if it gets seen when agent says, but yeah, it's done. It's it's not done, it's written. First draft is written. Excellent. Nearly. Oh, I'm really pleased. That's brilliant. I always have a book that's like a hobby. Yes. Like I'm not under contract for, which I'm sort of either thinking about or writing. Do you find those effortless? No. Oh, okay. I thought you were gonna go, yeah, it's a real bustons. No, and I've because I've never written a romance before. And you've never written something before. Like when a crime, you know, I know how to do it. Yeah. And I can keep the action going, but in a romance, there's no action. Yeah. There's no like it's all tropes with romance, isn't it? It's all tropes, yeah. Will they, won't they? You never know. Second chance romance if they it's a second chance romance, yeah. It's got quite a few, but yes, second chance romance, friends to lovers, blah blah blah. You know, all those all those little things. Any smart enough? Not not like not like full spice. Not like Elsie Silver spice. So what are you reading at the moment? Because you read quite a lot, I see on your on your Insta. I've just come back from holiday and I wrote like nine I read nine books when I was on holiday. Um I am halfway through a Gary Disher, which is the last Gary Disher that I haven't read. He's an Australian crime writer. Um, I really like his books. I'm halfway through one of those and I'm halfway through a BK Borison. Okay, yeah. Um I can't remember what it's called. It's set on a Christmas tree farm. Oh yeah, it's nice. Yeah. What were the nine books you read on holiday? Um so I read Abbey Muckjee's new one, which is really good. It's out next oh, it's out this month, called The Pinnacle, that's really good. Uh one called The Residency, which is CJ Major, which is like a creepy, creepy sort of Scottish Island book. Um, I won't take that on the next Scottish coach holiday that I crash with my mum. No, that's it, it's yeah, it's creepy. It's good though. Um trying to think those were the two crimes I read. More lighthearted if you're on holiday. There's loads of romance that I've been stacking up on my Kindle, and I thought I'll just read those. And obviously publishers send you proofs as well, don't they? Yeah, so the two that I those were two were proofs. Uh How to Write a Love Story, that was really good. I can't remember who that's by, but that was really good. Oh, I read one called Dom Com, which is as you would expect. It's like a Dom sub relationship. Oh really? Has anybody got any questions for Lou? Are you likely to resurrect Noah and Kara? Uh have you read the Count Dankula? You mean after the Count Killer? Um probably not. I had I did have, there was in the Count Dankola, there was like a second prologue which got cut, um, which was like a ten years later prologue. Um, and Kara goes to where Noah is and they end up like getting together. But um my editor was like, no, you don't need it, it makes no sense. I was like, okay, I just wrote it for me. Basically, I wanted to like have them get together. Um, but no, I think it's unlikely that I think Kara will come back. I think I'll do something Kara again and Griffin um and Adam. In fact, the book six, which I need to start writing soon-ish, um, is Adam and Mac from this one. Yeah so again it's bringing the universes together, yeah. Um, so yeah, but not Noah. I think he's gone. And who who was the actor for Noah? Um he's an Israeli actor called Toma Capon. He I don't know how you pronounce it. He's in The Boys. If anyone's watched The Boys, oh yeah, he's Frenchie. Oh, okay. So that's Noah, yeah. Ah, and who's Cara? Uh Emily Blunt. And Griffin? Carl Urban, but younger. Yeah. Still old now. Um Adam? Yeah. Adam is Richard Madden. That's right, yeah. And Romilly, weirdly, is Holiday Granger. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. That's really good. And who's Alexander Skarsgard? That's Jack. And the dog books. Yeah, that's it. I knew he was in there somewhere. Yes. I don't normally go for blondes, but I was like, yeah, Jack's gonna be blonde and it's gonna be Alexander Skarsgard. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Any other questions, please? Because my mind's gone blank. No? When's uh the next dog book? Um that is out in October. Um I really like so all from the beginning, I always wanted a bomb in London when Jack and Lucy have to go to London. It's called Leicester Square, it's set in London, so basically uh there's a bomb that goes off outside Selfridges on Oxford Street and takes down the entire front of Selfridges. And Jack's called up to investigate, and Lucy's called up with the dogs to um she's got an explosive dog and moss, obviously, and she's called up as well. So they're both called up to this basically London in crisis, and it's all about the bomb and the dogs that investigate bombs. So yeah, it's fun. It's fun, she says, having taken down the entire front of oxygen. So you must have so you must have had to have had even more people added even more people to your team, like a bomb expert and dog bomb expert. Yeah, so halfway through writing that I thought, what have I done? Because I knew nothing about any of this. So stupidly, I assumed that police dogs do the searching. They don't. It's the fire and rescue team. So Paul in contact with Graham, who's a fire and rescue, he's got labradors, and they look for bodies in wreckage, in which is fascinating how they do it. It's just really interesting. So I had all of that, and then the problem with bombs is you can't type bomb into Google. No, um you can type a lot into Google, like all the murder stuff you can touch, no problem. You can't type in how do I make a bomb into Google. What would happen if I did this with a bomb? Yes, you'd get added to a million watch lists. You couldn't do that, so I basically had to read so I read a lot about the IRA. So I read a lot of books about IRA and the sort of bombs that they used, and then um I was put in contact with a retired counter-terrorism guy, and he answered all my questions. So, yes, no, that was that was an absolute nightmare. I was like, I don't know anything about anything. Yeah, um, so yeah, I had to get those guys to help, and then I had to pull it all together into some semblance of something that made sense. So if that's out in October and we've seen a we have we haven't seen a cover for that yet, have we? It's just red at the moment, isn't it? I've got one, but um I haven't shared it yet because I'm sort of waiting to I don't know. Is there soon? Is there gonna be another one after Leicester Square? There's there's a fifth, and then and then that will be the end of the series, probably. Is this isn't fifth, this isn't the end of that series. No, no, that carries on. I've got uh I've got two more in contract, so the Bone Book and then another one on Book Six, which is set on a Scottish Island. Is it and I get and I'm going to Aaron in September to research that one. Oh really? So it's not quite Bahamas, but it's an island, so yeah. It's a holiday on an island, but that is research. So yeah, that one's set on a on a Scottish island. It's sort of like uh and then there were none crossed with like I know what you did last summer sort of thing. Oh okay. So that was gonna be book six. That's book six, and that will be out May 2028. I'm written in. I've got to write it at some point soon. Um so I need to write that, yeah, before August next year. So I've got them checking out. That's this book six. That's that book six. No, that'll be that yeah, that book six, but then the seventh Sam Holland, because the Bone Book is a Sam Holland as well. That's right, but that's only the Audible. No, that's different. The Bone Book will be a Harper Collins. Oh yeah. The Audible one's called Sleeping Beauties, if you see it. Is it? Sleeping Beauties, yeah. Do we know when the Audible one is out? July-ish, I think. This year. Yeah, next month, I guess. Yeah. It all depends on the who if they've got holiday grainers to sign the contract and when she can record, basically. And then they it's because it has it doesn't have the same lead time that paperbacks have. They just can just go boop, there you go, it's there. Yeah, um so yeah, it's it's completely different. It's it's nice. It's nice I don't have to worry about it. So, yeah, there's a lot lined up and a lot of things to write, so we'll see. Yeah. Wow. Okay, any other questions? Kelly, could you keep bashing out books, which we all love really quick? Have you got any number of books in mind where you think that's it and done? Or is there a have you got book 12, 13, 14 in your head? No, no, not that far. I think because you never know that you're gonna get the contract. So it's kind of I knew I knew so. I knew with the dog books, so we've signed up for four and five, and we've sort of said the five book arcs, like they seem to work quite well, although I do enjoy the writing the dog books. But then yeah, so I have a number of ideas that I sun sometimes cycle back to that I sort of quite like and would like to write, but then never it depends. So often I throw the same ideas at my editor each time, and she's always like, No, I want that one. Damn it. Um so yeah, it does depend. And then when I get an idea coming on from so when I wrote that one, Mac has a whole backstory which you don't find anything out about. You just know he's a bit, but you don't know why. Um so when I was writing it, I wrote this massive backstory for him, which all went in the book and it was just too much, and then I realised that backstory is basically another book, so that will be the Scottish Islands. Oh, okay. Um, so yeah, so his backstory is turned into an so they they kind of spawn from others, and then yeah, but I do have a number that I kind of like the idea of, but I've never got around to writing. What do you think stop prevents that number from really being the end? The fact that you create these backstories for these characters, and then it's like they're almost alive and you don't want to let them go. I get really attached to my character. That's why I'm surprised you said that about Lucy Halliday. You're gonna do five and then that's it. Yeah. What a shame when they're so good as well. Yeah, they're really fun to write, and I really enjoy them, and um, but also Lucy and Jack's arc is gonna kind of come to an end as well. Oh, okay. So it's that it's that sort of romance arc that I like, and that sort of has a has an end. Yeah. Um we'll see. But I I yeah, I get ideas and I kind of want to write them, and I would like to go back to Cara and Griffin and write another one with them, which would have to be in the contract artist one. So we'll see. Yeah, yeah. And then the Boneseller as well. I really like those characters in that, and that could be a series if it sells. So if it sells and they like it, then I could write another I've pitched another two books that you could write with that, but it depends. Pretty much depends. Do you think that might be more likely to do well in America because it's only um I don't know, we've tried we're trying to sell it in America at the moment, and it's really hard. It's not it's not being picked up, so yeah, it's the market is for crime is really hard at the moment, both in America and here. It's really hard to sell books. So um yeah, we're just gonna be able to do that. Yeah. Well, yeah, all the big brands are fine, like James Patterson and Lisa Jewel, and but everybody else, it's very much what we call the mid list, it's very hard to find a foothold at the moment. So the fact I'm still writing for HarperCollins is is a plus, really, at the moment. Yeah, that sort of thing. So it's really hard. It is a really hard industry, yeah. It really is, and you when you think how many books there are out there, and then the you you you see the ones that the publishers push, yeah, because obviously, as Booksellers, we get pushed to certain titles, um, you know, and you think there's so many there's so just because they're not pushing something else doesn't mean it's not good. I don't know how I'm trying to explain that. Like, we discovered a new author just recently called Caroline Mitchell, she writes crime, and she's been writing since how far but did we go back? 2012, I think, something like that, 2011, 2012. And no, and I'd never heard of her. And mum messaged me and said, I'm reading this book, it's called Ice Angels, Sarah, you're gonna love it. And I was like, Oh, right, okay. Then she went, I'm coming around now to drop it off. And you came around, she came round and dropped it off, and I think I read it in 24 hours. It's not 48 hours. Isn't a metocracy, it's the good books don't necessarily do the best. Yeah, it doesn't work like that. Yeah, isn't that weird? And then when we um got up her we got up her fantastic fiction to see what she'd written, and she'd written loads. Yeah, we never ever heard of her. No, there's a lot of really good writers out there that just don't get the airtime that they deserve. Um I mean some writers do, like some writers are very successful and are brilliant. Um others. Yeah, it's um yeah, it's a shame what gets pushed. And then some do really well, and then other authors, like I've got friends that are just absolutely brilliant writers. Um, I mean, one of my friends actually who um is a brilliant writer and her book is brilliant and she's absolutely flown is uh Broken Country, so Claire Leslie was like. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah, I tried my eyes out. Yeah, and I mean that's right, she's a bright, and I think I loved your book, but I tried my eye bad. She's she's absolutely lovely, like she's a close friend of mine. But she had years of just nothing, and now suddenly it's all gone off, and she's got Ruth with the Spoon, and yeah, it's all good. But uh I love that book. Yeah, that was the real like topic of because our book club's quite big. I think we've got 90 subscribers. Oh wow, that's good, and we've got a WhatsApp group where we all talk, but it's it's usually the same, like 20 odd, isn't it? That everybody else tends to mute it because we just talk, we just talk about books all the time. It's just book talk all the time. It's about I've just read this, what do you think? Blah blah blah blah blah. Well the thing about books is there's always for every like 99% who will love it, there's always somebody that's gonna hate it, and vice versa. So there's always a book for everybody, and that's why I tend not to talk about books I don't like so much, just because somebody else will read it and love it. Um you know, it doesn't necessarily mean because I don't like it, then somebody else. And of course, if something's hyped that it's really, really good, and then you think, oh, I'm gonna read that, then you read it and be like, oh no, it's not the hyped ones are definitely not as good. It's terrible, isn't it? Well, Kelly hate Kelly won't read any book that's won an award because it'd be rubbish. There's a lot of like we read um Wild Dark Shore. Oh that's yeah, we love that. Oh, okay. Kelly looks like it's gonna win awards! It's gonna win an award! Oh no, it is oh that's interesting. We are having a book awards, we're doing our own bookshop awards, and um, we've got the book club have got their own award with the best book that they've read in the last 12 months within our book club, because we've got four different genres, but then we've also got the best book that they've read outside of book club, and when we've got all those nominations, those nominations will then get put to Facebook and people will have a chance to vote on what are a lot of nominated, but then outside of that, the shop will have its own, you know, in accordance with sales data, you know, best book, best crime, best fiction, best non-fiction, and all that. Every time I go on holiday, I always take the Echo Man with me and leave it in a library by Pom Sunday. Oh my god, what a good idea! We should all do that. Yeah, yeah. I usually I go through yeah, any any uh Sam Holland or Louisa Sky, I'll take them everywhere with me and then just leave them in the libraries. You should put a note inside, tag Sky. Yeah, yeah, read this and tag Sky, read this and tag Netflix to the next reader. Like, I don't know if anyone's read the books before, but um, but the series is brilliant. And the producer and showrunner of that literally just picked up her books, messaged her on Instagram and said, Has anybody got the rights to this? I want to make it, made it and it's just gone. Any other questions? So when you get a contract, how long do they give you to actually come up with a book? Uh normally Is that a fixed time or trying to think yeah, they give you they you have to negotiate your deadline and it's normally about a year to write a book. Um but yeah, it's about I'm trying to think when I got the contract through. Yeah, it's normally about a year or so. I've had longer to write book six because we plugged a phone book in the middle and not already. Yeah, I've got the three three on the go at the moment. So it's it's any other questions from anybody? Yes, Christy. What was the one piece of advice you would give to somebody? Write a lot and read a lot, I would say. I think it's Stephen King's advice, I don't think it's even mine. But um yeah, so if you want to write a crime, whatever genre you want to write, read a lot of the books in that genre because you will find there's conventions and there's tropes and there's things that the way they're structured, um, and then just write a lot and don't don't think whatever you have to write is good, has to be good. Like that's the whole point of editing, just get it out on the page and see where it goes, basically, and try and enjoy it. Because I know so many writers, so many writers just say I hate it. I'm like, well, why do you do it then? Yeah, why do you do it? Like it's yeah. But um but yeah, I'd say those two things. Read a lot and write. Read a lot and management. Anybody else? Yeah! Thank you very much! Thank you all very much for coming.