Episode 66: Relationship Over Religion

The Bible shows us very clearly: Jesus was all about relationships. In fact, during his time on earth, Jesus rebuked the religious elite because they were using the law and religious practices to exalt themselves, completely missing God’s heart for His people. Can we, as believers, fall into the same trap? Are we prioritizing moral checklists and good optics over intimacy with God and those He calls us to love? Tune in to this week’s episode as Lisa and Ali discuss some of the connotations around the word religion, how the good news about Jesus changes everything, and how we can be more intentional about forming a deeper connection with God and others.

Links:

Make Room lyric video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-fZR7olNYc

Practicing the Way by John Mark Comer: 

https://www.amazon.com/Practicing-Way-Jesus-Become-like/dp/0593193822/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.dyuysjjhQJ0Txd1S_-UXaMMfFprLpOZJ9K7fvElHr3igCVNfB3PdAJt4-O29WCOc1cfpF3UItc2pr88gibRmuMrQ734BAhZKU1DWd_XkQs0B69CV9j2bu9aqfHTlC8nNg0RwL3blRwniOT-6YfXb88cTxB3v32FvzQ5AyUzZsl_L1V1HXZtLjBvTQ_lX3I1A-J8zAlZeSEzMsxz7wn2yTSwM873uOlqKHpcXcahhkgY.MWi9LexQHQ9SzXYNYV8Sto-duIf1l5uYpiBJuQ-XMRc&dib_tag=se&hvadid=693770179802&hvdev=c&hvexpln=67&hvlocphy=9021612&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=11026856104276352281--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=11026856104276352281&hvtargid=kwd-2239008167427&hydadcr=17840_13466956&keywords=practicing+the+way+by+john+mark+comer&mcid=188bca80434238af90896ad557069f5c&qid=1761243572&sr=8-1

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Her Solid Ground Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

I'm Alicia Jakuback. And I'm Lisa Bonema. So last week we talked about people overproduction. So we kind of focused on how Jesus wants us to treat others. And using his interaction, Allie told the story of the woman who had been bleeding for years and who found her way through the crowd and reached for Jesus to be healed. And, you know, Jesus instantly stopped and made time for her because that is just our Jesus, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

That is our Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yeah, he's just always about the people. He's always about relationships and making time for those. That trumps everything. Even though he was on his way to do something else to help someone else, actually, he stopped and made time for this woman.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Could you imagine?

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Yeah. I mean, to actually care about the people around you. Go figure, right? To stop. To stop. To stop. So I think that really speaks to the heart of Jesus. You know, he is always about relationships. It's not about duties or works or even religion. He's after love. He's after relationship.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yes. You know, you use that word religion. And it's funny because I didn't, it didn't bother me as a younger woman. But as I've grown in my faith, it actually bothers me a bit because I think there's a loaded connotation with the word religion. Do you feel that, Lisa?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Yeah. And that is why, you know, we were titling today's episode, Relationship Over Religion, because I do think that, I mean, it depends on how you define religion, right? We I think we all have a little bit of a different definition in our mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

You're exactly right. So if I look at, you know, I just go to dictionary, Google, whatever. If you just look at the flat face value definition of religion, right? A belief in and a worship of superhuman power or powers, especially a God, capital G God or gods. Another secondary definition, a particular system of faith and worship. Like I have no problems with those definitions. I mean, do you? I mean, that's exactly what religion is. Then I would say I'm a religious person. Yet if someone described me or anyone as religious, it's like do you feel that? Yeah, oh 100%. Like religious has an edginess to it, an undercurrent of, I don't know, judgment, pious, self-righteous behaviors. Like I don't want to be religious. Yeah, like the Pharisees. There it is. It's the Pharisees. Yes. We're like, I I am religious. I I would self-proclaim as religious, but I wouldn't use that word because, like I said, I do think there's almost like a wall up around the word religion or religious.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yeah, I do feel like the more I grow in my faith, the less I like the word religion because I don't feel like it tells the whole story. And I do think of, you know, I mentioned the Pharisees a couple seconds ago, and just for those who maybe aren't familiar, they were basically this group of like religious elite people.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Um that's what have said exactly religious elite. Isn't that weird that I'm intuiting what you're gonna say?

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Exactly. But I it's just in case people don't, they're in, you know, they're in the Bible and they were a group that really like led the faith of the Jewish people, and yet, you know, Jesus came and rebuked them because they were getting caught up in a set of religious practices and rules and putting that over what the heart of God truly is.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Absolutely. And it's it's worthwhile to note, um, you know, there were thousands of Pharisees. Not every one of them was bad, certainly. But we see the examples in the gospels specifically when Jesus, I liked your terminology, Jesus rebukes them because they put those rules, regulations, the law, above relationship. Again, the title, like relationship over religion, because our vertical aligned relationship with Jesus is infinitely more important than whatever rules we've constructed in a building.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Right. And I think as we grow in our faith, it's really easy to look at the someone like the Pharisees, you know, or someone you would describe as like ultra-religious and get a little judgy about that. But I think a lot of times we all can fall into this trap without even realizing it. Because as we grow in our faith and we grow in our understanding of God and even the Bible, we start to do that outward, right? I want to serve the Lord that I love. I want to serve my savior, I want to help lead other people to Christ. And then we get caught up in that. We forget that we still have to make sure we're maintaining that relationship with Jesus. That's what he wants first and foremost. It has to start there. He does not want us to set a follow follow a set of rules or fulfill a list of duties. He just wants to spend time with us. And when we do that, then that's when the overflow will come. But it has to be a constant relationship. He's the God who bends down to listen to our prayers. He's the God who walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of day. He came down to walk with us and among us. And then he sent the Holy Spirit when he went back up to God. Like he is very clear, you see, in his character throughout the entire Bible, that his goal is to always be near us, to be with us.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yes. Emmanuel, right? God with us.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

That word, listeners, Emmanuel, that's the definition. God with us.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Yeah, and I think it's just the way we frame the things that we do out of love for God. You know, it's like the spiritual disciplines. You and I talk about all the time, like the living it out part of it, like making sure you are reading your Bible or saying your prayers, or, you know, or listening to Faith Faith podcasts instead of like turning on some random thing on Netflix, you know, these things that help us, you know, feel like we're closer to God. But it's how are we framing that? Are we doing it because we're supposed to, or are we doing it to build relationship with the Lord?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

So I think it's just like a reframing, it's not like religious activities are wrong.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

No, certainly not. And it's just the word religion isn't wrong either. You know, I'm just denoting like the connotation of the word that it's taken. I mentioned to you, I I'm pulled it up here, there was a song, it always sticks out to me. It's called Make Room. It's a beautiful song. Um, I will make room for you. Listeners, I will spare you from hearing me sing. You are all welcome for that. Um, but I will make room for you, and it's such a good song because even in the words it's saying, like, this is my surrender, this whole idea, right, of like making room for the spirit, making room for God to work in our lives. And uh, like two of the lines that come up in the bridge are by the way, I didn't know what a bridge was, but I saw it online, so I'm just I sounded smart. Worship leaders, you're welcome. I nailed that.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah, neither one of us has any musical abilities. We have references before. I'm a red hot mess, but let me just the band that has no talent.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yes, let me just go on with the bridge because it sounds really smart. Um, but in the bridge it says, shake up the ground of all my tradition, break down the walls of all my religion. And I love the way that that's framed, right? Because I think that's what religion or tradition is in danger of becoming. You know, a tradition, a set of laws. You mentioned the Pharisees. They actually did this thing where they insulated the rules. They took the Ten Commandments, they took dictates from God, and they added like an additional layer of protection around that. So that it's like, wait a minute, that's not even what God said anymore. But now we're so insulating it that we are becoming our own gods. We are creating the rules, hence this idea of like too much tradition or religion. What you're describing is something infinitely different than that. It is leaning into who Jesus is. What the heart and the spirit and the soul of Jesus is. That's who we want to embody, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah, because I think we fall into this trap of, and I think we've talked about this before, of like almost like self-help or um moral building or whatever we do when we try to be like good Christian women.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

You've got to do this, this, and this.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Ooh, should you really say where do that thing? Right. But that's that extra protection, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:31

And it's like what you you judge others, right? You know, we get it, we've talked about the judgment piece. And when we get too caught up in the religious practices, we, you know, that is when we start to get self-righteous. Yes. Instead of, you know, um bearing the righteousness or being clothed in God's righteousness. And so for me, one of the things that has helped me is because, you know, I know I'm called to read the Bible. I know I'm called to pray. You know, you can always do these things more often, right? And with a better heart posture and not distracted. And so it's easy to almost feel shame in those moments when you realize you're not doing it. But God really placed this idea on my heart, um, I don't even know when, last couple of years, that like it's not that I have to feel bad about not doing those things. It's not that God is wagging his finger at me. And I think I've said this before, but it's I think he misses us.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

So I've said it before and I love it. Say it again. He's not mad, he's not wagging his finger, but he misses us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

You know, and then that makes me miss him, and then that makes me want to do those relationship builders. I almost like that word better.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

And even spiritual disciplines because it's like that's what we're doing when we're we're going through the the the word of God and hearing and learning about him and hearing about his heart, and those are the things we're doing that bring us closer to him. Yes, you know, and then and growing in the knowledge of him. And that does take discipline and intention, but it's like the why behind it.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Absolutely. I even think about just the privilege it is to study the gospels. Yeah. You know, if you haven't listeners, I mean, I would make that like this fall, I'm gonna read through the book of pick one, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Because those are just it's amazing to watch Jesus' feet on the earth. You know, it's amazing to see him in action to learn from his example. You know, uh last summer we did this John Mark Comer book, Practicing the Way. Really great stuff. He's talking about how we can apprentice under Jesus, but he makes the point and it's stuck with me, and I keep thinking about it because he says, okay, we need to focus on the practice of learning from Jesus. We are called to follow him. That's what Jesus says again and again. Follow me. Follow me. You know, I think in our culture, for whatever reason, those of us who are practicing Christians have gotten into this idea of knowing about him. We know things about him, and our aim is to sort of prove that he's the Messiah.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Well, I know about Jesus because it is solid proof that he is God. We serve a Trinitarian God. Everyone needs to believe that. Check the box. It's not. I need to know about Jesus to emulate his example, to follow his ways, to practice what he was doing.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

You know, it's it's he's our proof, but maybe not our practice. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Yeah, I think it's like you almost have to find a way to really fall in love with him. Yeah. Well, and the gospels do that.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yes. And that's where I'll I'll I tease Lisa a little because our approaches are different, but even watching that visual from the chosen is powerful. Yeah. Because especially my son said this to me recently. I think I'm a visual learner. I think I learn better when there's like a spoken like a teacher's kid. I know, right? When there's a when there's like a clip or a movie or something and you could see it. Because sometimes I didn't see it that way in the book.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

And it's like, okay, well, and then here again, the English teacher. Well, okay, but you know, directors take a lot of liberties, and that may not have been in the book, you know, right? Whatever. Right. And that's what I'm saying about the chosen two. Not no one was there with the Polaroid. We know that. Right. Was Polaroid dated? That was a dated reference.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

It was, but I think it made a comeback a couple times now.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Okay, no one's there with a digital camera. Even digital cameras are out of video camera, maybe iPhone. Okay, sorry, whatever. Analogy, but anyway, point being because it's a movie, but these these um I suppose I'd go back to your your phrasing, relationship builders, when we can see Jesus on the ground, the bending down, the bringing the children to him. Sometimes there's power in that and what it does in our brains to click like, oh this isn't that wagging the finger, God. Yeah, there are moments of correction. Listeners, hear that absolutely. But this is a God who's desperate for us. Yes, who loves us, who promises we were fearfully and wonderfully made. That's what he's telling us. We are his chosen. Yeah, he loves us. And so if we don't feel that relationship, like you said, he misses us. And we need to fall in love with that Jesus so that we can truly live that life.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

And we know that to be true in our in our regular everyday lives of the people that we spend time with. It's the people you love and adore that you would go to battle for, right? Like a mother fiercely would protect anything with her child. Like that's the kind of love we have to continue to have for Jesus. And we just have to admit, well, we're not feeling it. Because I do think the deeper we go in our faith, there is a tendency to almost like disconnect in our because we're it's so wrapped up in the service and the doing. And I will say I noticed this myself. Um a few years ago, I realized, you know, I'd committed, you know, I was a believer, I um knew Jesus was my savior. I really felt like I understood God even from a very young age before I gave my life to Christ. I understood the idea of God, the Father, and I trusted him, and I always knew that. And then I came to understand Jesus and sin, and I gave my life to Jesus. But then, you know, so then I started to serve him and do Bible studies, but then I realized I actually didn't really know, didn't love him the way I thought I should. Like I didn't really know him. I knew about him. I had read him almost like a character in a book. And so I decided that I wanted to get to know him. And so I did exactly what you said, Allie. I opened up the gospel of Luke and I just read through it. And it was like something shifted. Like I saw him, I like really got excited. You know, my Bible had like his words were in red, you know, some Bibles do that, the red letters, and really got to know him and fall in love with him. And then through that, I was more aware of like the Holy Spirit within me. And then I really started to understand and be able to hear God's prompting more. So it was almost like in that search for Jesus and to get to know who he was, the Lord then made me aware of um like guided me. I was like open to his voice more. So it's like the Trinity was exposed to me through my searching through Jesus. Like I had a better understanding of my faith and and how this actually works.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

I love that. Does that make sense? No, it's so honest too, and it's so relatable. I feel like I can hear Pastor Scott in my head, can't you? It's like there's a huge difference between knowing about Jesus and knowing Jesus. I mean, I think you could take a microphone to the street corners like they do in the shows, you know, like in New York, and ask people, what do you know about Jesus? What do you know about Jesus? It's it's it's not a knowledge thing though. Yeah, it's a heart thing.

unknown 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

And it's not even it starts with belief. Of course. But it's then it's that relationship is really that's where the stuff is. Like that's how we actually get the abundance, abundant life that we are called to and that he promises.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Well, and and this is the distinction that we see, and again, going back to why relationship matters over the the moniker religion. Because I, in my mind, when I hear religion, and and we said like if we think of the Pharisees, they knew the Bible. Right? Yeah, they were experts on the Bible. And so I think when you're around someone, again, quote, religious, in that, like if if that's what the stereotype I'm putting them in. Well, they just know everything, they're so smart, they know all these things. I'm never gonna be good enough, I'll never know what they know. But then we're missing it, right? Yes. And and I I told you this, it like immediately made me think of um this part in Acts with Philip and the Ethiopian, because it's like the Ethiopian's like, I'm missing something. Yeah. And I think it's almost like what you didn't know you were missing, right? You were missing. It's that relationship, like there has to be more than this to this than just words on a page, than a set of ten commandments, and not to blaspheme or say there's anything wrong with those. These are words of God and they matter, right? But there's there's more to it. And I love that like as we lean into this lifelong walk, yes, more is revealed to us. We evolve and we grow and we change in our deep love for God and then Jesus and the Spirit and whatever order that comes in for each one of us, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah, and it's it does, you know, it goes back to that. It's interesting because it takes intention, right? You know, we have to want to get to know. Yes, it doesn't just happen by osmosis, right? Yes, and it's and it it's it's a heart posture. It's like, you know, Lord, I want to fall in love with you, and I am feeling a little bit um, you know, apathetic or whatever. So then then open up your Bible and read about Jesus, and he'll soften your heart every time. Yes, I love that. But I love I did like your example, Allie.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

That is gonna actually be our scripture for today. Well, you know what? It it's always stuck out to me. In fact, my sweet middle guy used to say that I remember years ago. He was little, you know, he was like five or six. And uh Julius, as a matter of fact, Dr. J asked him, Zachary, do you have a favorite Bible passage? He's like, I love the part with Philip and the Ethiopian. I remember Dr. J being like, that's great. Like that was something different. Like, yes, my moment of it. I know. I really like I wish I could have scripted that, but it was like, bam. This is why I'm bringing it up. This is my brand everything. I feel like you're trying to get like double dip here and get credit for it. Little bit, a little bit. But you know why? Because I think what we saw in that beautiful example is where heart knowledge is just not, or I shouldn't say heart knowledge, excuse me. I said that wrong. Where brain knowledge is no match for heart knowledge. And and we see this great example here. And so um Lisa, you're I know you're gonna take us through this. So, listeners, if you want to turn, we're in the book of Acts, chapter eight. The book of Acts, chapter eight, and this is kind of a long chunk here, but I think Lisa, are you starting around 26?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Is that 26, and I'll read through 40. And I think it re it's okay to do a little longer because it's a story.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

It's a story, yeah. We're story do you feel we're like in the story mode right now?

SPEAKER_02 18:57

I know. I like it. I'm digging the story. Story sticks. I always like a good story. Okay. But this story is true, of course. Yes. Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza. This is a desert place. And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the spirit said to Philip, Go over and join this chariot. So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, Do you understand what you're reading? And he said, How can I, unless someone guides me? And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this like a sheep, he was led to the slaughter, and like a lamb before its shearer, silent, so he opens up not his mouth. In his humiliation, justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth. And the eunuch said to Philip, About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this? About himself or about someone else? Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture, he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, See, here is water. What prevents me from being baptized? And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azitas, and he passed through, and as he passed through, he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

You know, what I love is look at the fullness of the Bible. The book of Isaiah was written so long before this moment. And what is Isaiah? He's a prophet who's foretelling Jesus. And so imagine we have the benefit of the whole story. Imagine trying to make sense of that. See, again, this is that relationship religion doesn't add up because you could have all the brain knowledge in the world, and the Ethiopian's like, somebody teach me what is going on here. This doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think it's important to know like here you have the eunuch who is reading the scriptures, right? Going what he's supposed to do. Doing what he's supposed to do, but not. Not really having an understanding about Jesus. And as we see through the story, Jesus was the game changer here. It caused the eunuch to feel so overwhelmed that he wanted to get baptized right then and there. I love that. And it's like, wow. And then we see, you know, Philip taken away. Yeah, this is like teleportation. Like this is literally, when I started reading through, like that doesn't mean just he walked away. Like he was taken away. But that's a whole nother podcast. But you just see the power of God and the power of the Spirit and the power of Jesus all in one story here because the Spirit was prompting Philip to go over to the eunuch. You see the way God worked through himself and all three persons here, and how it really was the good news about Jesus that made that scripture come alive for the eunuch and changed his heart and ultimately led to his baptism and salvation. Well, and Philip listened.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah. How many times do we feel prompting and we're like, what? Right now. Or like you said, look at Jesus' example. He stops. He slows down. He bends down. He takes the time. You kidding me? I got somewhere to go, and I am not going to be late. I mean, I just keep full steam ahead on my agenda. I love this example that Philip stops. And remember, listeners, you and me, we have nothing. We have no power. We have no ability. It's the transformative grace of Jesus Christ alone that does. We cannot bring people to Christ. God is the only one that has that kind of power. And so even this Philip was so dutiful, right? But God alone worked in this situation.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Well, yeah, and I think he it clearly shows it even in the scripture. I mean, the fact that they happened upon a body of water in the middle of the desert. Nothing just happened to happen.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

And Isaiah, come on, greatest book. Like this is like chalk full of everything that shows the prophecy of the coming Messiah. And this is where he is. It's great, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Yeah, I just it's just such a great story of what, you know, that we can be the eunuch. We can be reading the Bible and not and be missing Jesus, right? And then or we can be Philip, the believer, who just needs to listen to the prompting and be brave enough and um patient enough and available enough to share the good news of Christ with those who are searching, which is most uh most people. I mean, most people aren't sitting in the middle of Target reading Isaiah. But that doesn't mean that God isn't gonna put people in your path. And you just have to be able to listen and discern that voice. And to go back to my first point, you know, when we first started, like the only way we're gonna hear those promptings, if we're engaged in a relationship with Jesus, and it just it softens our heart and makes us act like him. So we'll be more aware of these opportunities, we'll be more in tune with the spirit, and then we can be used in the way we actually want to be used, right? In ways that actually matter.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

But I mean, think this goes back to the concept of a relationship, though. Yes. A relationship. Jesus is far more relatable to us because he calls us into relationship with him. He was a man, he is love. He came alongside the hurting, the loss, the outsiders. He accepts us, he gently corrects us, but he loves us. Right? He loves us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Hit his heart and and how what he how he interacted with people and how he was so for the poor and the outsider. I mean, you just can't help but love a guy like that. You know, he just is so good and holy. And you know, then he had his moments where we talked about in our anger, like he things that made him angry, but all the right things.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

And so it's just making sure we know Jesus as much as we know about God or know about the things we think we're supposed to do as a Christian woman. It's going back to the heart of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

I love that. So what do you think? Do you want to tell this? Actually, I felt like perfectly parallels your live it out. So we have some notes here, so I like previewed what Lisa's Live It Out is, which kudos to you, Lisa. Sometimes Lisa's like, I want the spirit to lead me on my live it out. And she was like, ready today.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Which feels a little bit like the opposite of what this whole episode was, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Oh no. Hey, planning and preparation matters. Don't no, don't be little dad. That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Well, as we were preparing, and I was like reading through the scripture and thinking through this in my own life, I do, I remembered that, you know, that I've always had this idea of God, and the game changer was knowing Jesus. And I think we often talk about, you know, the attributes of God. You know, even like sometimes when I can't fall asleep at night, or I've told my kids, like you go through the ABCs and think about different attributes of God, and you usually fall asleep. But I don't know that I do that for Jesus. Now, of course, you know, Jesus is God's son, and they are, you know, three in one with the Holy Spirit. But Jesus as a person and even the way he lived and operated, I want to go through one of the gospels and like make a list of those attributes of Jesus specifically and dwell on those. Because I think that would be, I do, I have, I know I have like two different files in my computer saved attributes of God. But I don't know that I have an attributes of Jesus. And I do think there is something special about going through a gospel and really just seeing who Jesus was. I know that that's going to transform me.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

I I love that. Plus, I think it's a little like slightly more nuanced, which I think like pushes us a little bit, right? In our faith walk, consider this little distinction, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:31

I think that's good. Yeah, the the three and one is that you know, picking those apart individually, but seeing it, it's a tricky, mysterious concept.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

It is a beautiful mystery. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

How about you? What's your ill of it out?

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Well, you actually helped me come up with this. So you are gonna go with that one. Yes, I am. I am. I want to, I really do want to dwell on scripture because I think, no, I don't think. I know for a fact, um, sometimes I can lean a little to, and again, air quotes religion, because there, listeners, I read you the definition. Nothing wrong with the definition of the word religious. Religion, nothing wrong with it. It's just that what it turns into, that judginess, that self-righteousness. And so um, I actually, at least I had that idea. Hey, you know what a really good live it out for me often is, Allie, is I like to dwell on scripture that like pertains to what we're talking about and just like keep that in my mind all week. And so actually I pulled up one, it's Ecclesiastes 720 from the ESV. Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Woof! Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Listeners, that is me. When I look in the mirror, I am so much more aware of my sin nature as I grow in my faith and understanding and love of Jesus Christ than I was five, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. Like every day that I uh further this walk, I'm more acutely aware of my own shortcomings. So let me keep myself as the focus so that I can continue to grow in my vertical relationship, not what my neighbor is doing, my children are doing, my husband's doing. Because I think when we're looking outward like that, that's where we get into like that wrong concept of, and again, I'm using quotes, religion, you know, like the negative connotation of it. So I want to be relationship over religion, and I think for me to dwell on that verse, I'm never gonna be good enough. I'm never gonna not sin. So let me let me have my heart aligned more with his. Let me lean into who Jesus is, let me follow his example, because that's how I can grow and be better.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Yeah, and even like when I read that, I also read it as there's no one like Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Uh, there's no one like uh God's.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Well, that's because no one's like Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

No one.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

No one. Okay, Allie, would you pray for us?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

I will. Oh. Lord, you are so good to us. You give us this example of Jesus, this infinite mystery. He is man and God, he's part of the Trinity, and now we have a more clear picture of an example to follow. Lord, thank you for that. Thank you for the gospels. Thank you for the men and women who walk the earth with Jesus and got to experience that first hand. And Lord, I thank you today for our churches. I thank you for our religious institutions. You know, God, we we are aware of the meaning and the power and the connotations of words, but you didn't intend for any of that. You intended it all for your good and for your glory, Lord. So use us. Use us to align our hearts with Jesus, use us to ask questions, to wonder and to seek him, not to point fingers, not to be cruel or hurtful or yet another problem in this world. But let us look to his example in all things so we can grow relationships with others, so that we can be a beacon of your light and your truth, so that we can be assault. God, thank you for every opportunity you give Lisa and I to be on a microphone. Lord, we are unworthy of such an honor. We will always fall short. We will always mess this up, God. But you won't. You never let us down. Jesus never lets us down. We thank you for that truth. In your heavenly name we pray.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Amen. Amen. Okay, listeners, this week let's spend some time getting to know Jesus again. He alone is our solid ground.